Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football: Difference between revisions

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== [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|Proposed deletion]] of [[:2017–18 Iran Football's 3rd Division]] ==

{{WPF navigation}}

[[File:Ambox warning yellow.svg|left|link=|alt=Notice|48px|]]

The article [[:2017–18 Iran Football's 3rd Division]] has been [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed for deletion]] because of the following concern:

<!--Template:Archivebox begins-->

<blockquote>'''Tagged as Unreferenced for almost 8 years. No other language has a reliably sourced article from which to translate. No hits were found on Google News or Newspapers.'''</blockquote>

{| class="wikitable" width="315px"

|-

!align=center|[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]]<br />[[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]]

|-

|

#[[/Archive1|July 2005 – December 2005]]

#[[/Archive2|December 2005 – February 2006]]

#[[/Archive3|February 2006 – April 2006]]

#[[/Archive4|April 2006 – June 2006]]

#[[/Archive5|June 2006 – August 2006]]

#[[/Archive6|August 2006 – September 2006]]

#[[/Archive7|September 2006 – December 2006]]

|}<!--Template:Archivebox ends-->

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be [[WP:DEL#REASON|deleted for any of several reasons]].

==Notability on Conference players==

I've noticed that a fair amount of Conference players are having articles created for them recently. I'm not talking about players who've played in the league and dropped to Conference level, but those who've never played league football at all. I know a lot of Conference clubs are professional these days, but it's a professional ''league'' that's the qualifier. A few people used the professional club justification in a recent afd of two Conference players and I just wanted to check whether we're keeping the same standard before I embark on a mass deletion of the lot of them. [[User:HornetMike|HornetMike]] 02:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

:I'd endorse deletion, though my opinions in such matters have been [[User_talk:Oldelpaso#Finn_Harps_and_players|ruffling a few feathers]] lately. [[User:Oldelpaso|Oldelpaso]] 15:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

::Same here. It has to be a fully professional league. [[User:Punkmorten|Punkmorten]] 16:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I'm not sure here. I treat the Conference National as a full-time professional league at heart, with a couple of semi-pro teams doing their best to compete. Sort of similar to the [[Jupiler League]] or the [[Norwegian Premier League]]! - [[User:Richard Rundle|fchd]] 17:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I agree with Richard Rundle, the Conference is mainly professional, why not let the articles on players at professional clubs stay? If we accept a policy of eliminating articles on players that play in a league that contains one or more semi-pro/Amateur teams we would probably have to delete a load of players playing in top flight leagues across world football. Even if there is a deletion amnesty for top flight players, I still think that someone who plays for a notable former league club like Oxford Utd or York City is worth a mention... I do believe that if articles on lower league players are not maintained and kept up to date, the case for deletion would become a lot more justifiable. Regards, [[User:King of the North East|King of the North East]] 19:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I whole-heartedly disagree with the notion that top-flight footballers in all countries should be kept. National leagues come in different shapes when it comes to quality and of course verifiability. [[User:Punkmorten|Punkmorten]] 15:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Well, for a number of reasons. Apart from the fact that keeping them contravenes guidelines, players who've only played at Conference level are considerably different to those who've only payed in League 2, say. For one thing, the Conference gets virtually no press coverage whatsoever - these players are completely non-notable. Secondly, these payers are unlikely to ever rise up from the Conference - they players that play there are generally youth team drop-outs or seasoned grizzlers. Very few players who've only played in the Conference will ever make it into the League, unless their team gets promoted. Not the case with League 2 players. I just don't see how they can be considered notable, or make any decent size of article. [[User:HornetMike|HornetMike]] 19:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your [[Help:edit summary|edit summary]] or on [[Talk:2017–18 Iran Football&#39;s 3rd Division|the article's talk page]].

Are players for [[Unia Janikowo]] in the Poland II Liga notable? [[User:Punkmorten|Punkmorten]] 15:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

::Tough one! Not sure... [[User:HornetMike|HornetMike]] 20:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

:As the second highest division in a country of 38 million, and a national one rather than regional, it merits further investigation. I bumbling my way around the Polish RSSSF at the moment looking for more info. That team look to be one of the smaller ones in the division, of which they are second bottom at the winter break. [[User:Oldelpaso|Oldelpaso]] 21:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

::Looks like they get crowds of about 1,000, and this is their first season at the second level since it became a national division in 2002. I think we need to ask a few Poles to get an idea of notability. [[User:Oldelpaso|Oldelpaso]] 21:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Some of their players have played for clubs like Partizan and Slavia Sofia which I expect makes them notable since those are notable clubs within UEFA. I can't speak to the notability of the II Liga, but it seems a little unfair to treat players in England's 5th level of football as more notable than ones in Poland's 2nd level. (Is the typical Boston United player considered noteworthy outside of England?) Best regards. [[User:Jogurney|Jogurney]] 22:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed deletion process]], but other [[Wikipedia:deletion process|deletion process]]es exist. In particular, the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|speedy deletion]] process can result in deletion without discussion, and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|articles for deletion]] allows discussion to reach [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> [[User:Bearian|Bearian]] ([[User talk:Bearian|talk]]) 01:56, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

== Move [[FC Barcelona V Real Madrid]] ==

:Please stop spamming this page with mundane PROD requests. [[User:Spike &#39;em|Spike &#39;em]] ([[User talk:Spike &#39;em|talk]]) 08:52, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

I think this article should be moved to either [[El Derby Español]] or [[El Clasico]] as those are the two names given to it in Spain. Thoughts? [[User:Normy132|<font color="CD2626">Normy</font>]]''[[User talk:Normy132|<font color="2020C0">132</font>]]'' 02:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

:: We already have [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Article alerts]] for people to track AFDs, PRODs etc. Thus, we don't really require these notifications here for every PROD listed. If there's a specific need e.g. AFDs that have not attracted many editors, then that's sensible to post here, but not every PROD. [[User:Joseph2302|<b style="color:#0033ab">Joseph</b>]][[User talk:Joseph2302|<b style="color:#000000">2302</b>]] ([[User talk:Joseph2302|talk]]) 10:35, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

:In fact it could probably be merged in [[major football rivalries]]. There appears to be more information on the rivalry there than in the article. [[User:Normy132|<font color="CD2626">Normy</font>]]''[[User talk:Normy132|<font color="2020C0">132</font>]]'' 02:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

:::If you want to bring special attention to a PROD, list it at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Nominations for deletion and page moves]]. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 11:02, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

::::Courtesy tag for {{u|Bearian}}, who probably doesn't have this page watchlisted so won't even be seeing these responses...... -- [[User:ChrisTheDude|ChrisTheDude]] ([[User talk:ChrisTheDude|talk]]) 11:13, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

:::::Thank you. [[User:Bearian|Bearian]] ([[User talk:Bearian|talk]]) 12:40, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

Talk about ouch on my eyes, some of those tables are so red, can't read whatever the text is on them! :/ [[User:Govvy|Govvy]] ([[User talk:Govvy|talk]]) 10:21, 12 October 2025 (UTC)

::[[Major football rivalries]] and [[Local derby]] ought to be merged or reconsolidated, to some degree. I'd keep [[FC Barcelona V Real Madrid]] as a separate article; [[El Clasico]] is the ideal title - it's shorter and doesn't give any quibbles about which club comes first. [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 09:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

:rather surprisingly the black on red passes the colour contrast check! I find them difficult to read, and as for the redlink on red.... [[User:Spike &#39;em|Spike &#39;em]] ([[User talk:Spike &#39;em|talk]]) 08:53, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

::: I've moved it back. It was originally at [[El Clasico]], but [[User:Djln]] aparently moved it just a week ago without giving any reason for the move. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Johan Elisson|Elisson]]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:Johan Elisson|T]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Johan Elisson|C]]&nbsp;•</small> 15:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

::I toned down the colour, but this is not an endorsement of the content. [[User:Spike &#39;em|Spike &#39;em]] ([[User talk:Spike &#39;em|talk]]) 09:28, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

== Wrong link for Sweden U21 ==

== [[Football League Championship results August 2006]] ==

Hi! {{fbu|21|SWE}} U21 should have the link [[Sweden national under-21 football team]], not [[Sweden men's national under-21 football team]] (there is no women's U21 team). [[User:Mattias321|Mattias321]] ([[User talk:Mattias321|talk]]) 19:53, 14 October 2025 (UTC)

The articles [[Football League Championship results August 2006]] and [[Football League Championship results September 2006]] were recently proposed for deletion. I have moved the discussion to AfD instead. Partly because I disagree with the prod, partly because I believe a wider discussion is necessary to establish some kind of consensus and precedent on this. I would like to ask the members of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football]] to join this discussion, at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Football League Championship results August 2006]]. [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Aecis|<font color="blue">A</font>]][[User:Aecis|<font color="green">ecis</font>]] ^{[[Special:Contributions/Aecis|Dancing]] to electro-pop [[User talk:Aecis|like a robot]] from 1984.} 01:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

:I think all these month-by-month league stats articles should be deleted from WP - they just clutter the place up (we're looking at potentially thousands of such pages) and don't count as encyclopaedic material. Plus it is incredibly easy to get most sports results from other outlets (news agencies, Soccerbase, RSSSF, etc.) and to add them to WP is just duplicating their effort and wasting our time making sure they are not vandalised or falsely altered. Perhaps the answer is a creation of a WikiStats or some such so that people who want to spend their time endlessly adding this kind of thing in can do so. [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 14:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

::My opinion is that statistics are an enormous timesink, and have dubious encyclopedic value in most cases. Regarding a specialised wiki, there is a Wikia-hosted sports wiki called ArmchairGM. Perhaps they would be interested in transwikiing such articles. [[User:Oldelpaso|Oldelpaso]] 15:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

:It seems to be down to the attempts to differentiate between [[Sweden men's national football team]] and [[Sweden women's national football team]] in {{tl|Country data Sweden}}, whereby {{tq|men's}} is the default team if no {{para|mw}} is set. (There also seems to be pre-existing misuse of {{para|mw}} to link to [[Sweden Olympic football team]].)

*I think this discussion needs to be kept alive and open to discourse. There is considerable arguing on various AfD pages for month by month results pages, basically just data. Some want WP:Football to have as much detail as possible, others want some limit on the amount of detail is documented here IAW [[WP:NOT#IINFO]]. As this effects this entire Wikiproject, healthy consensus on this page would help enormously. At least ... until it reaches the Village Pump level (hopefully it wouldn't). TIA. [[User:Davidbspalding|David Spalding]]&nbsp;(<big><font color="darkred">[[User talk:Davidbspalding|☎]]&nbsp;[[Special:Emailuser/Davidbspalding|✉]]&nbsp;[[Special:contributions/davidbspalding|✍]]</font></big>) 17:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

:The code creates a football link by <code><nowiki>| link alias-football = Sweden {{{mw|men's}}} {{#ifeq:{{{mw|}}}|Olympic||national}} {{{age|}}} football team</nowiki></code>

:As the issue potentially affects other sports as well, it could be time to reopen [[Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Sports results]]. [[User:Oldelpaso|Oldelpaso]] 20:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

:When the senior men's team was moved from [[Sweden national football team]], no corresponding changes were done at youth level.

:A confounding factor seems to be the divergence between different AFDs. [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Football League Championship results August 2006]] resulted in two deletes, [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/FA Premier League fixtures and results]] resulted in two keeps and one delete, [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fußball-Bundesliga - September 2006]] resulted in one delete, [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/NHL Results October 2006]] resulted in three deletes, and I'm sure there are more AFD's out there. This to me indicates that some kind of guideline is needed, to prevent this divergence in future cases. Reopening the centralized discussion, as Oldelpaso suggests, therefore seems to be a good idea. We probably should contact all those who have commented in the related AFD's, to point them to the discussion.

:I'm not entirely sure how to go about fixing this but will have a think. Are there any youth-level women's teams for Sweden, as I wouldn't want to break anything else?

:Perhaps the solution lies in a new wikimedia project, as suggested by Qwghlm. I have contacted Jimbo about this: [[User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 15#Possible new Wikimedia project]]. The proper venue for new proposals for wikimedia projects is [[:m:Proposals for new projects]]. [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Aecis|<font color="blue">A</font>]][[User:Aecis|<font color="green">ecis</font>]] ^{[[User talk:Aecis|Find the fish]]} 22:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

:{{ping|S.A. Julio}} who introduced this to fix the senior team ({{tl|fb}} / {{tl|fbw}}) templates in case they can think of a solution. [[User:Spike &#39;em|Spike &#39;em]] ([[User talk:Spike &#39;em|talk]]) 10:14, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

::Should be resolved, though one redirect for a youth team seems like a relatively minor issue. [[User:S.A. Julio|S.A. Julio]] ([[User talk:S.A. Julio#top|talk]]) 17:32, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

== Separatist agendas ==

:*Apparently a ball is (slowly) rolling on a '''WikiStats''' project (name still under discussion). The related Talk page is [[m:Talk:WikiResults]]. [[User:Davidbspalding|David Spalding]]&nbsp;(<big><font color="darkred">[[User talk:Davidbspalding|☎]]&nbsp;[[Special:Emailuser/Davidbspalding|✉]]&nbsp;[[Special:contributions/davidbspalding|✍]]</font></big>) 16:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, and again AND AGAIN? [[Oleguer Presas]]. True, this is maybe the footballer that most identifies with Catalonia as a nation, but he IS Spanish period! Don't these people understand this?!?

== AFC competitions ==

Attentively [[User:RevampedEditor|RevampedEditor]] ([[User talk:RevampedEditor|talk]]) 12:10, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

I'm found that AFC Youth Championship is already changed the name to AFC U-19 Championship, also AFC U-17 Championship already changed the name to AFC U-16 Championship, this is from official site, should all the name move? --[[User:Aleenf1|Aleen]][[User talk:Aleenf1|<font color="black">f</font><font color="red">1</font>]] 07:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

:Hi @[[User:RevampedEditor|RevampedEditor]], as I mentioned in the talk page, you can check the [[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography/2018_archive#RfC_on_use_of_Spanish_regional_identity_in_biography_leads| 2018 RfC on use of Spanish regional identity in biography leads]], the consensus is that for people (like Oleguer) who self-identify as Catalan there is no point in calling them Spanish, regardless of how you want to identify them. Regards, [[User:Bsckr|Bsckr]] ([[User talk:Bsckr|talk]]) 12:59, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

== Wikipedia Day Awards ==

:What happened to [[WP:AGF]]? You seem very intolerant of edits supported by a quoted RfC (see also {{tq|this separatist nonsense}}).

:Him being a footballer doesn't override that. [[User:Spike &#39;em|Spike &#39;em]] ([[User talk:Spike &#39;em|talk]]) 13:13, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

::OK, i apologise (for the use of "nonsense"), could have phrased it better. But it's not just a matter of how "I" (as you point out) identify a given subject, i've seen this approach tried/used time and time again at WP only to be summarily reverted/dismissed, by several established users in the community.

::Mr. Presas indeed identifies himself as a staunch Catalan, but he IS Spanish until Catalonia can gain (if) independence, i'm afraid that's how WP sees it.

::I will wait for more inputs before i edit in the article again. Regards as well. [[User:RevampedEditor|RevampedEditor]] ([[User talk:RevampedEditor|talk]]) 13:51, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:::Again, it looks more like that's how you see it, not Wikipedia,

:::Also, what does independence have to do with it? Are you also pressing for Scottish football players to be described as British unless they secede? [[User:Bsckr|Bsckr]] ([[User talk:Bsckr|talk]]) 08:36, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

Nope, never said any of that (the "pressing for Scottish footballers" bit, for all i'm aware cases are somewhat different). Regarding this case (and the false accusation of this being MY idea instead of WP's), please refer to [[User:Panenkazo]] for more details. I'm not going to waste two hours trying to find the pertinent thread (but their talkpage should give you an idea of the timeframe), but i think to say that they were reverted AND blocked should be enough on wether this is a project guideline or something that just popped out of my head.

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of [[Wikipedia:Esperanza|Esperanza's]] proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at [[User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week]] where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. [[User:Badbilltucker|Badbilltucker]] 19:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

About Oleguer, i repeat i will leave things as they are currently if it turns out to be what the majority wants (i also repeat that, per past experience, it does not seem to be the case). Happy weekend! --[[User:RevampedEditor|RevampedEditor]] ([[User talk:RevampedEditor|talk]]) 11:39, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

:My reading of things is that if the RfC is worded in such a way, it stands as concerning Oleguer. It's harder to make the argument for people who chose to play for Spain 100 times like Piqué (!) and Xavi. [[User:Unknown Temptation|Unknown Temptation]] ([[User talk:Unknown Temptation|talk]]) 12:50, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

==Football Transfers==

::He is Spanish. There is argument for describing him as 'Spanish-Catalan', but NOT just 'Catalan'. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 18:21, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

'''The below is a wikiproject I mistakenly started in regards to football transfers. I'm going to nominate the page [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football Transfers]] for deletion. I just thought that I would transfer the text from editors so as to save it from deletion.'''

:::Did you read the RfC above? [[User:Spike &#39;em|Spike &#39;em]] ([[User talk:Spike &#39;em|talk]]) 18:48, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

::::The bit where it says "if sources generally use a certain identity"? And the sources say Spanish? [https://www.worldfootball.net/player_summary/oleguer/ 1], [https://www.soccerway.com/player/oleguer/WWSRIGLF/ 2], [https://www.espn.co.uk/football/player/_/id/26702/oleguer-presas-renom 3] etc. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 18:57, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

:::::What about the next clause {{tq|and it is clear that the person self-identifies with that identity}}? [[User:Spike &#39;em|Spike &#39;em]] ([[User talk:Spike &#39;em|talk]]) 19:51, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

::::::It's an ''and'', not an ''or''. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 20:45, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

:::::The text of the RfC obviously does not refer to sources which automatically display the country of birth like the ones you've linked, the whole RfC wouldn't have been needed then, as it is evident that only recognized countries will be listed there, not the nationalities that the RfC talks about. Almost every recent news article about him talks about his political militancy. [https://www.goal.com/en/news/catalan-independence-ex-barcelona-star-oleguer-brands-spain-a-militarised-state/u5vhyt2bcbld1qp1xlqhs7cvu] [https://www.givemesport.com/lionel-messi-barcelona-debut-oleguer-presas-politics/], etc [[User:Bsckr|Bsckr]] ([[User talk:Bsckr|talk]]) 00:37, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

::::::World Football and ESPN both clearly say 'nationality: Spain', so don't try and twist the sources to suit your agenda. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 09:03, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

:::::::We should give more weight to articles directly discussing the subject rather than generic database listings. [[User:Spike &#39;em|Spike &#39;em]] ([[User talk:Spike &#39;em|talk]]) 10:13, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Describing him as 'Spanish former footballer and Catalan political activist' or similar is a sensible compromise. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 10:34, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::I agree with GS here. He's Spanish and that's unquestionable, and he's very active in the Catalan politic view, so the last sentence would be very correct on both stands. [[User:BrazilianDude70|<span style="color:orange">BRDude⁷⁰</span>]] ([[User talk:BrazilianDude70|<span style="color:purple">talk</span>]]) 12:33, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

== [[Iran national football team]] ==

'''Just like to add, I've created the deletion page: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WikiProject Football Transfers]] but am not sure what the next move is as this is deleting a WikiProject. Sorry about the trouble.'''

The article seems to contain too many templates, which makes it so that all subsections automatically open in mobile view, making it difficult to navigate. Is there a way to fix this? [[User:Nehme1499|Nehme1499]] ([[User talk:Nehme1499|talk]]) 02:22, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

It's become clear to me and quite a few other wikipedians lately that the way football transfers are being dealt with lately is becoming completely unacceptable.

== International career statistics (goals) ==

Some sort of definitive date of transfer needs to agreed upon and used for all player and team article.

An IP has been editing (seemingly at random) the List of International Goals scored by various footballers. His approach is to merge any cells that are vertical neighbours which have the same content. Not only do these include the stadium or the competition, but also opponents (even if the matches are years apart) and scorelines. I’ve reverted several, but there are many that remain, such as [[Evan_Ferguson#International|Evan Ferguson]]. [[User:Daemonickangaroo2018|Daemonickangaroo2018]] ([[User talk:Daemonickangaroo2018|talk]]) 09:13, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

One case to point was the [[Michael Carrick]] article. Numerous unregister users kept changing his team designation from Spurs to Man Utd days before the transfer ever went through. The same is now happening with [[Marcos Senna]] article. Personally I believe that a transfer should be register with a changing of the wikipedia article with either of the following 2 points in times.

:Urgh, that table is unintelligible. I have similar issues on tables in cricket articles and there I try to apply a rule that I only merge cells if all the columns to the left are also merged (using this it could have a set of cells in column 2 rowspanned across 4 rows followed by 2 separate rowspans of 2 in column 3). Just because you can use a rowspan, doesn't mean you should do it! [[User:Spike &#39;em|Spike &#39;em]] ([[User talk:Spike &#39;em|talk]]) 09:21, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

'''1.''' When a player finally signs a professional contract with his new club.

::Looking at that Evan Ferguson table, I don't have any huge beef with the merging of other columns, but the merged score column looks absolutely ridiculous. I just blinked at it for a couple of minutes trying to figure it out before it clicked...... -- [[User:ChrisTheDude|ChrisTheDude]] ([[User talk:ChrisTheDude|talk]]) 09:50, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

:::Columns should not be merged per [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 144#Rowspanning in player international goals table|this discussion]]. [[User:Nehme1499|Nehme1499]] ([[User talk:Nehme1499|talk]]) 11:46, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

::::Yes, "venues, opponents and competitions should not be rowspanned across different matches. Instead, they should be rowspanned within the same match". [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players]] also refers to the discussion. [[User:Robby.is.on|Robby.is.on]] ([[User talk:Robby.is.on|talk]]) 12:58, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

:::::It is a LTA South East Asian (Indonesia and Vietnam usually) IP hopper who I have been chasing the last few days! [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 18:58, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

== Sad update ==

'''2.''' When the national league and UEFA finally register the transfer.

Hello, a person with authorised access to their account has recently confirmed {{noping|Struway2}} is now unfortunately [[WP:RIP]], as Mattythewhite has discovered yesterday and is therefore the first to know this. I know that user has interacted with many of you over for a lot of years so I thought I should notify you all with the update. [[User:Iggy the Swan|Iggy]] ([[User talk:Iggy the Swan#top|Swan]]) ([[Special:Contribs/Iggy the Swan|Contribs]]) 13:29, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

I believe that at any point, changing a players article is completely incorrect.

:Very sad news indeed, RIP. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 13:37, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

:That is just sad, RIP. [[User:Kante4|Kante4]] ([[User talk:Kante4|talk]]) 14:14, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

:Very sad news. An editor I much admired.--[[User:Egghead06|Egghead06]] ([[User talk:Egghead06|talk]]) 14:16, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

:I echo the sentiment of all three users above, a wiki-warrior. As she usually used to sign off, cheers (and RIP)! --[[User:RevampedEditor|RevampedEditor]] ([[User talk:RevampedEditor|talk]]) 14:24, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

::@[[User:RevampedEditor|RevampedEditor]] indeed. That sign off by that user will have to be without the talks of Struway. cheers/attentively, [[User:Iggy the Swan|Iggy]] ([[User talk:Iggy the Swan#top|Swan]]) ([[Special:Contribs/Iggy the Swan|Contribs]]) 22:38, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

:Rest in peace. Sadly, not the update we were hoping for. [[User:Nehme1499|Nehme1499]] ([[User talk:Nehme1499|talk]]) 14:57, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

::None of use would be hoping for that either. I'd made a start on the obituary at [[Wikipedia:Deceased Wikipedians/2025#Struway + Struway2]] detailing their Wikipedia life which includes the original {{noping|Struway}} account, as I discovered it after the account Kante44 was briefly in use (but not anymore). Any improvements will be appreciated.

::p.s. as far as I am aware, none of us know their real name so I don't think that should be included, just like that of Eagleash's obituary at [[Wikipedia:Deceased Wikipedians/2023]]. [[User:Iggy the Swan|Iggy]] ([[User talk:Iggy the Swan#top|Swan]]) ([[Special:Contribs/Iggy the Swan|Contribs]]) 16:22, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

:That is terrible news. She did so much excellent work here. RIP. [[User:EchetusXe|Echetus]][[User talk:EchetusXe|'''X'''e]] 09:59, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

:Gosh, I'm so sad to hear that news. RIP Struway -- [[User:ChrisTheDude|ChrisTheDude]] ([[User talk:ChrisTheDude|talk]]) 10:27, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

:Very sorry to hear. RIP Struway. :( [[User:FastCube|FastCube]] ([[User talk:FastCube|talk]]) 07:52, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

Hi all, just to make you aware that Struway's funeral takes place this Thursday at 2 pm. I have been provided access details by her husband for this to be viewed live via webscast, or as a recording for 28 days; should anyone wish to request these details, please feel free to contact me by email on here.

Its clear that "militant" fans of different clubs are basically trying to up the standing of their own clubs by altering wikipedia articles.

I'd like to thank Struway for her dedication to improving the quality of football articles, especially those relating to her beloved Birmingham City, and for the support she'd readily provide other editors. I've let her husband know how much she meant to a lot of people here and how much she will be missed. [[User:Mattythewhite|Mattythewhite]] ([[User talk:Mattythewhite|talk]]) 19:10, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

The main way of doing this is through linking ever single player who has been mentioned in the media to their own club. This is becoming very annoying. Just about every player now has a transfer speculation paragraph added to his article linking them for the most part to either [[Manchester United]] or [[Chelsea FC]]

: RIP Struway, very sad news [[User:TheGoalGuy|Statattack]] ([[User talk:TheGoalGuy|talk]]) 20:23, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

== Nicolas Jackson ==

Again, I believe that Wikipedia needs to have a solid policy on adding transfer speculation instead of the current haphazard situation where unregistered users are coming in and linking every player under the moon with their club.

Some of you might remember a dispute over where [[Nicolas Jackson]] was born. On the talk page, {{u|Epicsports}}, allegedly his agent (so COI) said that there were primary documents to him being born in Senegal and that this had been corrected on the Chelsea website (another COI source) and [[Transfermarkt]], which he rather humourously called "the official website for all football player profiles".

Please feel free to discuss such in the talk page

The following sources used to be in the article to back up a birthplace in Banjul, The Gambia:

[[User:Niall123|Niall123]] 14:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

*[[Sid Lowe]] in [https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/jul/04/street-football-to-premier-league-nicolas-jacksons-road-to-chelsea The Guardian]: "Born in Banjul, the Gambia, he was raised in Ziguinchor, in the rural Casamance region of southern Senegal"

I agree, something needs to be done. While Michael Carrick was joining Manchester United, it was annoying when unregistered users stated he had joined, when for all we know the transfer could fall through. I think we need to state transfers have been completed when a website like http://premierleague.com or http://bbc.co.uk/sport announce them on their lists of completed transfers. -- [[User:Mattythewhite|<span style="border:1px solid black;color:black; padding:1px;background:white">'''''&nbsp;MATTYTHEWHITE&nbsp;'''''</span>]][[User talk:Mattythewhite|<span style="border:1px solid silver;color:gray; padding:1px;background:silver">'''''<small>&nbsp;yap&nbsp;</small>'''''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Mattythewhite|<span style="border:1px solid silver;color:silver; padding:1px;background:gray">'''''<small>&nbsp;stalk&nbsp;</small>'''''</span>]] 3/8/06

*SeneNews from Senegal: [https://www.senenews.com/actualites/societe/gambie-nicolas-jackson-na-pas-oublie-sa-terre-natale-decouvrez-le-beau-geste-de-linternational-senegalais-photos_498009.html] "Nicolas Jackson, l’attaquant des Lions du Sénégal, a fait de même pour sa terre natale, la Gambie" - "Nicolas Jakcson, Senegal Lions forward, has done the same thing for his birthplace, the Gambia" "Né à Banjul en Gambie, l’attaquant des Lions, Nicolas Jackson, n’a pas oublié sa terre natale. " - "Born in Banjul in Gambia, the Lions attacker, Nicolas Jackson, has not forgotten his birthplace"

: Matty, have to agree with you. Saying that the transfer of players on wikipedia can only be recognised when the official premier league website recognises the transfer would be the best solution, at least for transfers to English clubs anyways. [[User:Niall123|Niall123]] 15:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

We have a respected football journalist who goes through an interview with the player and publishes it, and was never pulled up for getting the player's country of birth "wrong". We then have a news source in Senegal reporting on him giving aid to the Gambia, and saying he was born there.

::the official transfer list:

::[http://www.lfp.es/competiciones/inscripciones/inscripciones2.asp?div=1 Spain]

::[http://www.lega-calcio.it/ita/bach_contratti.shtml Italy]

::[http://www.premierleague.com/fapl.rac?command=setSelectedId&nextPage=enNewsLatest&id=1301935&type=com.fapl.website.news.NewsItem&categoryCode=NewsSpecialFeatures&breadcrumb=sfsub_breadcrumb England]

::[http://www.lfp.fr/ligue1/transfert.asp France]

::[http://www.bundesliga.de/de/dfl/transfer/index.php Germany]

The page, now saying he was born in Senegal is sourced to Bayern Munich, which just like Chelsea is now a COI source at the mercy of agents. What is funny is the page still says he moved from Gambia to Senegal due to political upheaval - it just doesn't explain why he was in Gambia in the first place...

::Wiki Policy: '''Encyclopedic content must be verifiable'''

I'm not jumping into putting the page as it was before, however if some consensus is built on the quality of sources, go ahead and put it back. [[User:Unknown Temptation|Unknown Temptation]] ([[User talk:Unknown Temptation|talk]]) 10:08, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

::I think the news from [http://www.uefa.com uefa], the club webpage were one of the best source, the official transfer list were good but not update very fast. bbc, skysports and goal.com were ok, they sometimes made mistakes. [[User:Matthew_hk|<span style="color: rgb(255, 255, 51); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Matt86hk</span>]] [[User talk:Matthew_hk|''<font color="Blue">talk</font>'']] 16:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

:::Yep, have to agree with you guys. We really should only change pages when official source have stated transfers. We really don't want another Michael Carrick situation, that was terrbile. To stop the vandilism before it happens just locked to new and un-registered users, pages of players and clubs involved in big transfers, during the negotiation stage. Preventing any vandilism. [[User:Gran2|Gran2]] 19:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

:[[WP:AFD|Articles for deletion]] is for articles in the mainspace only. Project pages go to [[WP:MfD|Miscellany for deletion]]; I have listed it there instead. [[User:Oldelpaso|Oldelpaso]] 21:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

::Thanks for the help. [[User:Niall123|Niall123]] 21:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

:A regular source football editors use is [https://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=134733 Soccerbase], which also gives Banjul, the Gambia. Obviously, some of the sources must be incorrect, but based on a previous discussion I've had started in late 2019 with [[Talk:Kyle_Naughton#Birthday_appears_to_be_today...|a date of birth problem]], and Bayern Munich are a popular top division club and Champions League regulars, I'm inclined to go with the Bayern Munich website. If they have it incorrect, they may need to correct that before the loan expires. [[User:Iggy the Swan|Iggy]] ([[User talk:Iggy the Swan#top|Swan]]) ([[Special:Contribs/Iggy the Swan|Contribs]]) 13:14, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

== CAF leagues interwiki links ==

::It does have more inconsistencies: the article currently says he moved to Ziguinchor in 2017, while [https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/c98gegp3882o BBC Sport] (which also says his birthplace was in The Gambia) says he did it at the age of 12, which means 2013 (or 2014)... Pretty uncertain infos if you ask me. [[User:BrazilianDude70|<span style="color:orange">BRDude⁷⁰</span>]] ([[User talk:BrazilianDude70|<span style="color:purple">talk</span>]]) 14:52, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

(I hope this is the right place to put this.)<br/>

It would be nice if at some point, someone could go through all the leagues linked to in [[Template:CAF Leagues|this template]] and make sure all of them have an interwiki link to their French articles linked to [[:fr:Confédération africaine de football#Liste des fédérations|here]] and vice versa. I've been doing this for a while now, but as I am doing it manually I am very slow, if anyone has a quicker way of doing it that would be very useful. - [[User:MTC|MTC]] 08:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

==Drugs, sex, alcohol and Bowyer!==

I've just had to add plenty of references to [[Lee Bowyer]], [[Jonathan Woodgate]] and [[Paul Merson]], in accordance with [[WP:BLP]]. Given the UK tabloid press just loves printing stories about footballers, can people make sure to include a source if adding anything of this nature to an article please? [[User:One Night In Hackney|One Night In Hackney]] 14:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

== Football manager article? ==

I was looking around and it seems that the only article about football management is [[Coach (sport)]]. Is there really no article or am I just blind? <small><font color="AE1C28">[[User:Jacoplane|JACO]]</font><font color="#21468B">[[User_talk:Jacoplane|PLANE]]</font> &bull; 2007-01-1 16:50</small>

:There is [[Head coach]]. But i prefer someone write manager only a concept in England and different/simmarity from head coach. [[User:Matthew_hk|<span style="color:yellow; background-color:black;">Matthew_hk</span>]] [[User talk:Matthew_hk|''<font color="Blue">t</font>'']][[Special:Contributions/Matthew_hk|''<font color="red">c</font>'']] 03:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

==Retired footballers==

What do people feel about the idea of creating a set of subcategories to differentiate '''Active''' and '''Retired''' footballers?

For example Active players could be left in the Category:?????ian footballers, and the retired players could be moved into Category:Retired ?????ian footballers.

I would be prepared to do the work on the footballers from South American countries (around 2000 of them).

[[User:King of the North East|King of the North East]] 19:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

:Don't bother - the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(categories)#Occupation|naming conventions]] say that 'Occupation categories should not be divided into "current" or "former" categories'. [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 20:43, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

== Comments requested on [[Template talk:International football#North America]] ==

Comments from further users on [[Template talk:International football#North America]] is requested. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Johan Elisson|Elisson]]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:Johan Elisson|T]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Johan Elisson|C]]&nbsp;•</small> 18:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

== Final decision on league by month results and league goalscorers ==

Considering that all four major deletion discussions on the matter ([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Football League Championship results August 2006|1]], [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/FA Premier League results December 2006|2]], [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/La Liga 2006/2007 results December 2006|3]], [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/FA Premier League 2006-07 goalscorers|4]]) were closed during the last few days with a '''delete''' consensus, I believe it is time that we codify this so that we can end the constant fights and discussions and instead start concentrating on, IMHO, more important matters. We have many terrible articles, or no article at all, on some fairly important subjects. Just to mention two, we need a separate article on what a football manager is (as discussed above), and the various forms of [[youth football (soccer)]] that exist around the world.

I don't believe that the Wikipedia community as a whole will ever reach a consensus on the matter of results and match reports of all sports present on Wikipedia and thus it is up to us, the football community, to establish standards for ourselves. We have some extremely inclusionist sport communities, including but not limited to Cricket and American football, but I do not believe that is the way to go. Football is so extremely well covered on the internet today that there really is no need for Wikipedia to duplicate information ([[WP:NOT#DIR]] and [[WP:NOT#INFO]]) or to have match summaries ([[WP:NOT#PUBLISHER]]). A link to a statistics site (preferably the official) provides the reader with the depth and coverage that Wikipedia does not need, while contributors can concentrate on doing more important tasks.

The deletion discussions has served as good precedent. The world's most followed football league (the [[FA Premier League]]) was not considered important enough (along with other large leagues such as [[Serie A]] and [[La Liga]]) to have month by month result and goalscorer articles, and so I believe it is fair to say that ''no single national league in the world'' should have month by month result and goalscorer articles. This also includes not having extensive detail in the actual season article. On the other hand, I do not oppose having the same sort of result list used on [[UEFA Champions League 2006-07]], which includes date, team and score. Such info can also be organised into two colums to not make the article overly long. I believe that the date is a pretty important piece of information, even though the very compact results table used on [[FA Premier League 2006-07]] may be preferred by some.

In short, the codification would be something along the lines of:

*Month by month articles on national leagues are unwanted

*Detailed match reports or statistics from national leagues are unwanted

*Only in special cases should detailed match reports be used in articles on national leagues (play-off matches may be one such case)

*Simple result lists in main season articles are ''not'' unwanted

*Complete goalscorer articles on national leagues are unwanted

I have not yet said a word about other types of competitions (international club competitions, international national team competitions, and so on), and I will not do so at this time, to allow us to concentrate on national leagues first. Comments on the proposal? &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Johan Elisson|Elisson]]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:Johan Elisson|T]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Johan Elisson|C]]&nbsp;•</small> 20:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

:Just to clarify - in the fourth bullet you refer to "Simple result lists" - by this you mean the grid type of displaying such data in [[FA_Premier_League_2006-07#Results]]? Everything else you say I totally agree with. [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 22:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

:: It depends on the opinion of you (the community). As said, I do not completely oppose the usage of the format seen for example here (below the table): [[UEFA Champions League 2006-07#Group A]] (but with two columns), but the ideal would be if we could incorporate the date the match was played (which I consider to be a fairly important piece of info) in the results table you link to (perhaps a mouseover or something?). &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Johan Elisson|Elisson]]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:Johan Elisson|T]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Johan Elisson|C]]&nbsp;•</small> 22:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

:: As a sidenote, the mouseover can be done like this: <span title="20 September 2006">5&ndash;1</span> which uses the code <nowiki><span title="20 September 2006">5&ndash;1</span></nowiki>. Then of course it should be explained above the table that a mouseover of each result will show the date the match was played (or is to be played). &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Johan Elisson|Elisson]]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:Johan Elisson|T]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Johan Elisson|C]]&nbsp;•</small> 23:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

:An encyclopedia article gives a general reader the most relevant information on a topic in a manner the reader can understand. If this is done there is no problem i.e. leading goalscorers mentioned in the context of an article about a football competition, as in [[FA Premier League]]. To my mind, the [[WP:NOT]] ''indiscriminate collection of information'' line is crossed when the context becomes insufficient for a reader to comprehend the contents of an article without background knowledge - which was the case for the detailed results and full goalscorers lists. They provided data, not knowledge. So my general principles would be "Does it make sense to someone who doesn't know the first thing about sports?", and "Does it make clear where it fits in a wider context? Whatever criteria may be created, these are the principles they need to emphasise. [[User:Oldelpaso|Oldelpaso]] 22:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

:: Agreed. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Johan Elisson|Elisson]]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:Johan Elisson|T]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Johan Elisson|C]]&nbsp;•</small> 23:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Any further comments on this? The DRV for the goalscorer articles ended in an endorsed deletion, so I guess we do not really have any choice except setting these standards? &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Johan Elisson|Elisson]]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:Johan Elisson|T]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Johan Elisson|C]]&nbsp;•</small> 16:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

==Belfast Celtic==

There is currently a POV dispute on the [[Belfast Celtic]] article and I am appealing for an independent editor to intervene. It would be greatly appreciated. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:86.83.157.195|86.83.157.195]] ([[User talk:86.83.157.195|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/86.83.157.195|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}|&#32;{{{2}}}|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

== Request of meditation ==

Me and an Anon user are having a disagreement over at [[Talk:Belfast_Celtic]] since this falls inside the scope of this project and both me and the anon have agreed to mediation i was wondering if someone could please have a look ([[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] 22:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC))

:I will do it. [[User:Rakuten06|Rakuten06]] 22:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

:I might ask the folks at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Buddhism|WikiProject Buddhism]] for help on your meditation needs. --[[User:Balerion|Balerion]] 18:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

== Untrue numbers ==

Hi, I thought I'd bring this up with you guys. In quite a few cases, new players are being given made up numbers for their teams. Some examples of this are [[Luís Boa Morte]] of [[West Ham United F.C.|West Ham United]] being given 22, when he is infact 13, [[Moses Ashikodi]] of [[Watford F.C.|Watford]] being given number 39 when he is actually 36 and [[Kristofer Hæstad]] of [[Wigan Athletic F.C.|Wigan Athletic]] being given number 25 when he is actually 27. All of these have since been amended, but I see this as an arising problem. Thanks. -- [[User:Mattythewhite|Mattythewhite]] 15:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

== Where should FIFA Women's World Cup articles be located? ==

Should specific-year [[FIFA Women's World Cup]] articles have the year before or after the name of the tournament? My thought is that the date should precede the tournament name, similar to the [[FIFA World Cup]] naming and other FIFA tournament article names. Thoughts? If you have any questions, please contact me at [[User talk:IanManka|my talk page]]. [[User:IanManka|Ian Manka]] 14:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

:I agree. While we're at it, I would like to move the [[:Category:FA Cup Finals|FA Cup Final articles]] to having the date preceding the name as well. Thoughts? [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 15:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

::Agree on both. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Johan Elisson|Elisson]]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:Johan Elisson|T]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Johan Elisson|C]]&nbsp;•</small> 15:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

:::I'd do these myself, but I'm too lazy right now. :P If I remember, I could do these later. If you have any questions, please contact me at [[User talk:IanManka|my talk page]]. [[User:IanManka|Ian Manka]] 15:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

== Reorganisation of [[Football in England]] ==

The History section of [[Football in England]] is getting quite big, while [[Football in regions of England]] is a not very well-written and in my mind unnecessary article (football being played nationally in England, not regionally), though nearly entirely history-based. So I have suggested splitting off the former into a new [[History of English football]] article, and merging what is salvageable from the latter into it. Anyone interested should join the discussion at [[Talk:Football in England#Merge_.26_reorganisation|Talk:Football in England]]. [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 00:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

==[[Sport teams by championships]]==

I recently became aware of the article [[Sport teams by championships]], (which includes a section on football). I am unsure what to think of this article- my initial response was to put it up for afd, because I felt it was so broad in its scope (i.e. what championships?) that I didn't know if it was a reasonable article to try and compile. But then I thought maybe I could just show it to you guys and you might have some ideas for how it could be improved (in the football section at least). [[User:Robotforaday|Robotforaday]] 11:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

:The page, as it is at the moment, doesn't help anyone, so it should either be deleted quickly, or developed into something worthwhile. I'm not really sure what the page is for - is it for winniers of the World Club Competition (namely the FIFA Club World Championship, for football), or is it the winner of the North American competition, as with the other sports displayed? To be honest, if it's about the FIFA Club World Championship, there's not a lot to write, so it wouldn't be hard to bring our section up to a good standard, but the rest of the article is fairly shoddy, and it doesn't seem to fulfil any purpose, so I'd suggest that deletion is the way forward. [[User:Chris Larkin|Chris Larkin]] 17:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

== [[David Beckham Los Angeles Galaxy contract]] ==

Could some of you guys please help expand this. There is plenty of information out there, this could become a featured article.--<small>[[User:Hamedog|Hamedog]]_{[[User talk:Hamedog|Talk]]}|^{[[Special:Emailuser/Hamedog|@]]}</small> 09:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

:To be honest it looks a bit crufty and recentist to me. Why can't this information be included in [[David Beckham]]? [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 10:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

::Totally agree - no need for a separate article [[User:WikiGull|WikiGull]] 11:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Well it's big news for now but give it a month and I'll propose merging it back in. The Beckham article is quite big as it is, though, it has to be said. [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 11:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

::::There is need for a separate article, it would make Beckham's article to big.--<small>[[User:Hamedog|Hamedog]]_{[[User talk:Hamedog|Talk]]}|^{[[Special:Emailuser/Hamedog|@]]}</small> 11:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::That article should have been on Wikinews. Wikipedia does not need that much info. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Johan Elisson|Elisson]]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:Johan Elisson|T]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Johan Elisson|C]]&nbsp;•</small> 12:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::I'm actually planning to ad details after he starts playing to it on the number of crowds before and after, media coverage differences, as well as other statistics which I will think of between now and then. Please leave it there. Think of it like the Early life of George W. Bush article.--<small>[[User:Hamedog|Hamedog]]_{[[User talk:Hamedog|Talk]]}|^{[[Special:Emailuser/Hamedog|@]]}</small> 12:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I don't believe that would benefit Wikipedia. Either way, it would be [[WP:OR|original research]] to do so, unless any media does it, and in that case a simple link there does just fine. This is way too much of a news report to be in Wikipedia. In 50 years, would people really go here to find such information? The section in the main [[David Beckham]] article can be expanded slightly, and most of the other info can be merged into [[Designated Player Rule]], [[Los Angeles Galaxy]], [[Major League Soccer]] and [[Major League Soccer 2007 season]]. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Johan Elisson|Elisson]]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:Johan Elisson|T]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Johan Elisson|C]]&nbsp;•</small> 12:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::::It's not original research to compare the crowds of 2006 to 2007, which will be done by the media, if a ref is provided. Anyway, can we move this to [[Talk:David Beckham Los Angeles Galaxy contract]]?--<small>[[User:Hamedog|Hamedog]]_{[[User talk:Hamedog|Talk]]}|^{[[Special:Emailuser/Hamedog|@]]}</small> 12:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I imagine this would make a rather good WikiNews article, and would be better if it were transwikied over there? Don't really see the significance on Wikipedia.

::Sorry, but I've put the article up for afd. See [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Beckham move to Los Angeles Galaxy]] [[User:Robotforaday|Robotforaday]] 14:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Was speedily kept - in any case I think some of the information in there is useful and should be merged & redirected into the main article on Beckham (which while we're at it, needs some trimming of various minutiae). [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 16:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

:::: Note that it was speedily kept only because it currently is linked from the main page, and that as soon as the link dissapears, nominating it again would be okay, in case anyone wants to do it. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Johan Elisson|Elisson]]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:Johan Elisson|T]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Johan Elisson|C]]&nbsp;•</small> 17:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that the page has been moved to [[David Beckham move to Los Angeles Galaxy]]. My personal opinion is that there is (far) too much information to be merged into the David Beckham article. Also, while I'm not certain that the article is encyclopedic, I do not see a good reason to delete it. [[User:Alii h|aLii]] 17:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::Long term, this could go one of two ways, merge into [[David Beckham]], or a broadening of the contract article dealing with his whole post-Real Madrid career - [[David Beckham in Major League Soccer]], [[David Beckham in the United States]] or something. [[User:Oldelpaso|Oldelpaso]] 12:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::I hope it's the second.--<small>[[User:Hamedog|Hamedog]]_{[[User talk:Hamedog|Talk]]}|^{[[Special:Emailuser/Hamedog|@]]}</small> 12:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

== Notability query ==

I'm thinking of starting an article for an ex-Liverpool player, Chris Pile. Now Chris Pile never made a professional appearance, in fact he only made the bench in one game. What makes this different, though, is that this game was the 1985 European Cup final, the biggest game in club football. Given that this match has its own article, and the squad lists are linked, people are likely to want some backround on who Pile is. Also, I think his story is fairly interesting. But would it get deleted? [[User:ArtVandelay13|ArtVandelay13]] 19:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

:I won't delete it if you use sources [[User:Kingjamie|Kingjamie]] 20:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

::I reckon he is ''just about'' notable - he says [http://www.lfchistory.net/redcorner_articles_view.asp?article_id=310 here] he was the youngest person to ever feature in a European Cup final squad, which is a notable claim in itself, and the unusualness of his career probably makes him of note. [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 20:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

::: I agree, the unusual twists and turns of his career makes him notable, even if he fails the [[WP:BIO]] criteria for athletes. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Johan Elisson|Elisson]]<small>&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:Johan Elisson|T]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Johan Elisson|C]]&nbsp;•</small> 20:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

==Cup Stats in Infoboxes==

Whilst doing some updating of cricket players infoboxes, I discovered that [[Template:Infobox Cricketer]] has an easy typable option (just writing "balls = true" in the particular player's profile) to change whether the infoboxes shows balls bowled or over bowled. This reminded me that this - [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive7#League Cup stats in infoboxes]] - discussion was never resolved. It strikes me that there being such a simple code in the cricket infobox that it would be easy enough to implement a bit of code that stated whether the infobox had just league appearances or league AND cup appearances (the solution that came up in that discussion but was not implemented). Thoughts? I think the only other thing I can think of is that it might be best to increase the size of the statement saying league or league&cup as it's not that visible. [[User:HornetMike|HornetMike]] 21:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

:What worries me about cup stats is the lack of reliable sources. [[User:Punkmorten|Punkmorten]] 22:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

::And consistency, most list of career stats only list league appearances, and if you provide additional data for some players and not others, the stats will be skewed. [[User:ArtVandelay13|ArtVandelay13]] 22:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

:::While it's by no means ideal, until such time as there are reliable and consistent sources for cup appearances (and such sources would have to be into the past, as well as covering many countries (certainly not just England) for the sake of consistency), I think that we must keep the infoboxes as giving just League appearances, with no other option. [[User:Robotforaday|Robotforaday]] 14:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

:::I agree, Football Yearbook's etc mainly contain League stats [[User:Kingjamie|Kingjamie]] 19:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

== [[fc]] ==

Just a heads-up to keep an eye on your <nowiki>{{fc:club}}</nowiki> edits. I occasionally check the "[[Special:Whatlinkshere/FC|what links here]]" page of the [[fc|FC]] disambiguation page, and there's usually a few <nowiki>{{fc}}</nowiki>s that have mistakenly been given square brackets showing up. Not a biggie, just an [[FYI]]. - [[User:Dudesleeper|Dudesleeper]] 23:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

:Will look out for them. All instances of {{tl|fc}} should be [[WP:SUBST|subst'ed]] anyway. [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 00:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

::Is this true for {{tl|nft}} as well? Best regards. [[User:Jogurney|Jogurney]] 17:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

== Year in Football ==

I've noticed some people include more than just national champions under that subheading, such as second division champions (cf [[1975 in football (soccer)]]. This rather waters down the article IMHO. Additionally, what do you think of introducing a section '''Winners national cups''' there? [[User:Madcynic|Madcynic]] 13:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

== Photographs in player aticles ==

The template at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players]] includes a photograph of Tim Template and the infobox has a space to include an image. Except for current players, where users can upload their own photographs, how can photographs be incorporated in articles for retired/deceased players? Photos available on the web are generally copywrite and consequently any attempt to upload them into Wikipedia to use in a player article will generally be deleted within a few days (see the photo on the page for [[Grzegorz Rasiak]] for example). Does anyone have any bright ideas? [[User:Daemonic Kangaroo|Daemonic Kangaroo]] 16:15, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

:The short answer is that there is no easy way to obtain a free image for these players, unless the photo is sufficiently old to be out of copyright, or is otherwise suitable for one of the [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Public ___domain|public ___domain tags]]. Fair use images, while they should be avoided where possible, are permitted providing they comply with the [[WP:FUP|fair use policy]]. The image on [[Denis Law]] is a good example of this. The important points to remember when uploading a fair use image are to provide details of the source, use a low resolution version of the image, and to provide a specific rationale for its usage. In the case of the Rasiak image, no source was provided and it is feasible to create a free image, so it will be deleted. [[User:Oldelpaso|Oldelpaso]] 20:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martyn Woolford]] ==

The afd discussion [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martyn Woolford]] appears to have degenerated somewhat. I think it could use more members of the wikiproject- either to uphold the current deletion policy of [[WP:BIO]], or to initiate a discussion on whether or not we want to establish a new consensus (as some people seem keen to draw the line a step or fifteen lower). Regardless, the afd can reach no satisfactory conclusion with the current back-and-forth. [[User:Robotforaday|Robotforaday]] 14:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

== Stop this deletion-rage! ==

The [[jurist]] [[User:Sandstein]] is nominating a wide variety of [[Football (soccer)]]-articles for deletion.

Now he is even deleting [[NF-Board]]! Please help to stop this rage! --[[User:Rheinländer|Rheinländer]] 22:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

:I'm sure the nomination was [[WP:AGF|in good faith]]. You may wish to note that canvassing for support in an AfD discussion in a partisan manner is discouraged. Besides, its already on the project's deletion noticeboard, and with a number of reasoned ''Keep'' comments, the outcome is pretty much certain already. [[User:Oldelpaso|Oldelpaso]] 22:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

== Football peer review ==

Has this project ever considered setting up a peer review system? I was involved with setting up the video game peer review: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Computer and video games/Peer review]], which lists normal Wikipedia peer reviews as well as CVG peer reviews. The {{tl|cvgproj}} template could easily be copied to produce something like this for the football template: {{cvgproj|peer-review=yes}}

It would seem to me that having one place where all football related peer reviews are listed is easy to set up and would benefit the community greatly. <small><font color="AE1C28">[[User:Jacoplane|JACO]]</font><font color="#21468B">[[User_talk:Jacoplane|PLANE]]</font> &bull; 2007-01-17 23:42</small>

:TBH I see nothing wrong with shoving it into standard Wikipedia [[WP:PR|Peer Review]]. We all get alerted to the fact by it being added to the [[WP:WPF#Featured_and_good_articles|main project page]] - many of us here do comment on them - and it allows non-football editors a chance to add their views. Adding another PR just adds extra overhead with no immediate benefits, at least in IMO... [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 00:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

::True, I didn't realize the PR's were already listed on the project page. Still, setting up a dedicated page for peer review takes little effort and the extra overhead you mention has not been a problem at all on WP:CVG. Another advantage of the way things are done on hte CVG PR page is that all the PR entries are [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Computer and video games/Peer review|directly transcluded]] on the page, so one can read through all the entries without having to click on all the links.. I agree that more process doesn't really benefit anyone, but we've seen many [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Computer and video games/Featured articles|CVG featured articles]] go through a CVG peer review, then a general WP peer review, then GA-nomination, then FA, and it seems to work well. The peer review requires little maintenance other than transcluding the entries and making sure the talk page templates are correctly applied. <small><font color="AE1C28">[[User:Jacoplane|JACO]]</font><font color="#21468B">[[User_talk:Jacoplane|PLANE]]</font> &bull; 2007-01-18 00:53</small>

== Notability enquiry ==

Not fishing for positive answers here, but would [[Harry Evans]] be classed as notable in the footballing world? - [[User:Dudesleeper|Dudesleeper]] 20:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)