Talk:William Guy Carr: Difference between revisions

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There are so many things wrong with this article, it is hard to know where to begin... First, Commander Carr died in 1959, so I have corrected statements such as "His investigations and studies have taken him... " to "His investigations and studies ''took'' him"... etc.

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{{old XfD multi|date= January 27, 2007 |result= '''no consensus''' |votepage= William Guy Carr}}

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== Wiki Censorship is Alive and Well!! ==

Beyond the tense issue, I noticed that the article was linked to the [[Freemasonry]] Page. Reading between the lines, I gather that Commander Carr might have been an Anti-Mason of some kind. However, as the article is written, there is no mention of this (indeed no mention of Freemasonry at all). Thus, there is no justification for the link. I have removed it for the time being. Either state the connection, or leave out the link (and I would think that the correct link would be to the [[Anti-freemasonry]] page.)

I have tried to clean-up some of the "DIS-INFORMATION" on Commander William Guy Carr. This is clearly a "Smear Piece" against him. It seems some people are clearly interested in this page, because as soon as I do any change it is near instantly reverted back by someone who has made no contribution other than to maintain the falsehoods upon the current page. I guess I was told right when told wikipedia is a place for false propagandist's. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/66.127.213.147|66.127.213.147]] ([[User talk:66.127.213.147|talk]]) 23:08, 18 January 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I tried to look at the reference to the Web version of the Pike to Mazzini letter. It seems that Wiki is wrong in

Then there is the question of explaining Carr's views. It is stated that Carr studied "the International Conspirasy" ... ok, from the context I would assume that this conspirasy has something to do with Bolshevism, but this is not explained. The same goes for "Evil Forces" later in the article... what are these Evil Forces Carr wanted to inform people about.

its reference. In the Pawns in the Game (1956) there is the following text:

On August 15, 1871, Pike told Mazzini that after World War Three is ended, those who aspire

Finally, I would have to say that this article has the potential for serious POV violations. The only thing saving it at the moment is the fact that the article is so poorly written, it does not really make clear what that POV is against (Bolshevism? Freemasonry? annonomous Evil Forces?)

to undisputed world domination will provoke the greatest social cataclysm the world has ever

known. We quote his own written words (taken from the letter catalogued in the British

Museum Library, London, Eng.) :

“We shall unleash the Nihilists and Atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm

which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of

savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend

themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of

civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with christianity, whose deistic spirits will be from that

moment without compass (direction), anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its

adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of

Lucifer brought finally out in the public view, a manifestation which will result from the general

reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of christianity and atheism, both

conquered and exterminated at the same time.”

This is not the three war plan in the Web what Wiki explains. Please correct to the actual reference.

It either needs a major re-write or a deletion. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 14:22, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The Web 3WW plan is not from this book by Car. Even though conspiracy theories may be nuts, still make the

references correct.~~ <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/88.114.52.63|88.114.52.63]] ([[User talk:88.114.52.63|talk]]) 18:14, 19 January 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I corrected some of the text: the references to the web 3WW plan, and the statement that Carr would express

== Anti-semitic ==

Manichean views, naturally Carr is Christian and the wold conspiracy is Manichean according to Carr, a very common view in all of these conspiracy books. ~~ <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/88.114.52.63|88.114.52.63]] ([[User talk:88.114.52.63|talk]]) 18:18, 23 January 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Archiving? ==

I have removed the "Anti-semitic people" category from Carr's entry. It's true that Carr did point to certain Jews as being involved in coordinating world events, but this did not make him categorically anti-Semitic.

I see that old discussions have been moved to archives... no problem with that... except I can not seem to locate the archive. Where is it? [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 12:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

== The "Mazzini Letter" ==

:In the archive folder on your right. [[User:216.246.224.128|216.246.224.128]] 00:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

:Sorry, connecting : [[User:Eristik|Eristik]] 00:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

== anti-semitism ==

I have removed the material on the Pike plot to start three world wars... it has been proven to be part of a hoax. No one has ever claimed to have seen the original of this letter. Its provenaunce seems to take on the aspects of an urban legend... along the lines of "I heard it from this guy who says that his cousin's wife's hairdresser knew someone who's university room-mate saw the letter."

Should it not be mentioned in the beginning that he promoted anti-Semitic conspiracy theories? There is barely any mention of this at all in the article, yet this seems to be a big part of his legacy. - Concerned Semite <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/132.64.177.173|132.64.177.173]] ([[User talk:132.64.177.173|talk]]) 13:57, 28 January 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

All we do know is that the letter was frist published in 1925 by Cardinal Caro y Rodriguez of Santiago, Chili (hardly an independant, neutral source, as the Catholic Church has been Anti-masonic for centuries). Carr took his material from Cardinal Rodriquez, excerpting in "''Pawns of the Game''"... but, importantly, issued a '''retraction''' in his later book: "''Satan, Prince of this World''". In that book Carr wrote: "The Keeper of the Manuscripts (at the British Museum) recently informed the author that this letter is NOT catalogued in the British Museum Library. It seems stange that a man of Cardinal Rodriguez's knowledge should have said it was."

I think it's unfair and a mistake to call William Guy Carr Anti-Semitic because if you refer to page 6 of his

booklet 'The Conspiracy To Destroy All Existing Governments And Religions' (available at archive.org) he

specifically warns against making this very same assumption. Of course a criminal of ANY race or faith,

including Jewish cannot use the defence of Racial Discrimination or Anti-Semitism if his detractors

accuse him of crimes that have been proven to be committed.

I now include the two paragraphs I consider very relevant to my opiinion. Pay particular attention

to the 3rd paragraph.

Page 6 of 28:

This entire letter is an anti-masonic urban legend. And in case you have trouble realizing this... Pike could not have said that the Second World War would have involved facists... he lived in the second half of the 1800s, and facism did not gain its name until the 1920s. There is no way he could have written this letter. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 21:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

"The purpose of those who direct the Luciferian conspiracy is to prevent the masses — The Goyim; the Human

Cattle—from knowing the whole truth because they know that if we did we would automatically accept God's

plan.

The Luciferians therefore rely upon their ability to lie to and deceive those they plan to enslave body, mind,

and soul, into believing anything but the truth. That is the reason Christ referred to the Synagogue of Satan,

who direct the Luciferian conspiracy upon this earth as 'Sons of the Devil, whose lusts ye shall do. He was a

murderer from the beginning. He knows not the truth because the truth is not in Him.'

We must also remember that the words 'Synagogue of Satan' do not, repeat not, mean the Jews because Christ

Regardless of the veracity of the letter, the discussion of this letter is arguably Carr's most enduring legacy. Therefore, I think it merits inclusion in any encyclopedic entry about Carr.

also made it perfectly clear that the Synagogue of Satan 'Are those who call themselves Jews, but are not, and

do lie.' The Synagogue of Satan is composed of men and women of many nationalities which have their origin in

Cain, Eve's son. My knowledge of the Luciferian Creed has been acquired by reading all the literature I could

obtain dealing with the subject and by reading and studying translations of the writings of his Eminence Caro

y Rodriguez, Cardinal of Santiago, Chile. I pass on that knowledge in order that you may decide the issue one

way or the other." <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/27.252.248.36|27.252.248.36]] ([[User talk:27.252.248.36#top|talk]]) 13:42, 24 November 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== External links modified (January 2018) ==

There are several inaccuracies and questionable assertions in your discussion above. First, you state that the letter has been "proven to be part of a hoax." Can you prove that the letter was hoaxed? If Pike didn't write it, can you prove that no one wrote it? Who exactly perpetrated this hoax?

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

You also claim to "know" that the letter was first published by Rodriguez. Can you tell me the title of the book and the page where this letter is published by Rodriguez? It's true that Carr (or his son, who edited "Satan, Prince of This World" after Carr's death) claimed to learn about the letter from Rodriquez. However, I have not yet seen any discussion of this letter by Rodriguez anywhere.

I have just modified 2 external links on [[William Guy Carr]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/821400919|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:

Finally, Carr's footnote in "Satan, Prince of This World" is hardly a "retraction." Rather, Carr is expressing his doubt that Rodriguez was making it all up.

*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120205161515/http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=182 to http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=182

*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100909164911/http://www.theconspiracyexplained.com/IntroductionAmend.html to http://www.theconspiracyexplained.com/IntroductionAmend.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

It is possible that the letter and the plan for three world wars is a complete fabrication. For example, the plan for three world wars may have been some kind of Cold War-era misinformation in which Carr was a witting or unwitting accomplice.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

It is also true that Carr's overall credibility suffers in part because he repeated certain anti-Masonic tales that can be traced back to Leo Taxil's elaborate hoaxes.

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 07:01, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Nonetheless, the alleged plan for three world wars is a critical item of information in any discussion of Carr. It merits examination, discussion and investigation by a wider audience, rather than preliminary censorship by persons representing and/or protecting freemasonry. ~JG

==Argument for keeping this page==

IMO the main content of this page, an alleged conspiracy to program 3 world wars, is notable -- if only because if it were true, it would be really huge. <br>

It may not be necessary to repeat the entire argument, a short version with references might suffice<br>

It's also possible that Carr himself is not notable and that it could be referenced under Pike<br>

The reason this tale is so fascinating is that it seems to fit events, starting in the 1890's and the pieces falling into place around 1917, a few years before the 1925mention in a book. <br>

The reason it is interesting now is we are now in the midst of the 3rd part or war of the prophecy taking place, the war between the west and Islam over Zionism. So even if it was made up in 1925, that is a prediction 80 years ahead -- pretty good!<br>

Sounds notable to me. <br>

Where is the deletion discussion page?<br>

I agree with the previous writer as regards censorship which is alien to the concept of an encyclopedia. However, I think freemasonry is a red herring here, perhaps a false lead. There are factions within the masons, they are not monolithic. Specifically, most of the founding fathers who set up the American democracy were masons; in response, the British set up the Scottish Rite as a counterrevolutionary clique, or so I have been told. <br>

Anyway, the secret society format is a perfect cover for state intelligence operations. If there is such a conspiracy then the obvious power pulling the strings would be the divide and conquer department of the good old British Empire, who, after all, set up the Palestine Mandate, a key piece of the Three World Wars puzzle. [[Albert Pike]] and [[Mazzini]] have been alleged to be British agents, Mazzini in charge of destabilizing continental rivals, Pike as part of the British instigation of the Civil War and support for the slave confederacy. <br>

A great yarn and highly thought-provoking in light of current crises. [[User:JPLeonard|JPLeonard]] 07:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

:I'm not sure where you get your information, but much of it is completely wrong. For example, the British did not set up the Scottish Rite. Most of the degrees that formed the rite originated in France (well before the Revolution). These degrees were exported to the US shortly after the Revolution, where they were compiled by two seperate groups that today form the Scottish Rite in the US (a - Northern Jurisdiction and b - Southern Jurisdiction). The rite as it is in England derived from the US Northern Jurisdiction. So to say that the British set up Scottish Rite as a counter-revolutionary clique is simply incorrect. (see: [[Scottish Rite]] for more info.])

As to censorship.... my concerns for this article have nothing to do with censorship, they have to do with scholarship. This article is seriously lacking in sources. Furthermore, it repeats conjecture as if it were proven fact. If it is not to be deleted, it needs serious work. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 18:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

== Why is this person notable? ==

I proded this as being non-notable, and someone removed the prod tag saying that this person is more than just a consipiracy nut... that he is notable for having an impact on other conspiracy theorists. Fine. If that is indeed what makes him notable, why is there only one short mention of this? This article is primarily a quote from one of his books and a brief refutation of about the source used to create the quote. If he had such a large impact on conspiracy theory, shouldn't that impact take center stage?

Also... work needs to be done on citations and references. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 17:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

== AfD ==

As I have not recieved any reply to my comments above, nor has the article been edited to add the information requested... the article is now formally nominated for AfD. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 16:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC)