Wikipedia:Templates for discussion: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 08:00, 24 February 2005

Latest revision as of 16:41, 24 August 2025

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{{Short description|Page for discussing mergers and deletions of templates}}

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{{Redirect|WP:TFD|the page used for TimedText or talk page deletion discussions|Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion|a list of templates used for discussion|Wikipedia:List of discussion templates}}

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This page is in need of '''admin attention''' to resolve old requests. Please remove this notice once this has been done.

{{offer help}}

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{{floating link|Closing instructions}}

<div class="tfd-header">

{{Ombox

| style = text-align: center

| type = notice

| image = none

| text = {{hlist|''[[#toc|Skip to table of contents]]''|''[[#Current discussions|Skip to current discussions]]''|''{{Purge|Purge this page}}''}}<inputbox>

type=fulltext

prefix=Wikipedia:Templates for d

break=no

width=50

placeholder=Enter &#x5b;&#x5b;Template:Example&#x5d;&#x5d; to find a discussion

searchbuttonlabel=Search archives

</inputbox>

| imageright = {{Shortcut|WP:TFD}}

}}

{{XFD backlog|right}}

{{Deletion debates}}

On this page, the deletion or merging of '''[[Help:Template|templates]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Lua|modules]]''', with a few [[#What not to propose for discussion here|exceptions]], is discussed.

{{Shortcut|[[WP:TFD]]}}

{{deletiontoolsTOC limit|3}}

This page is for deleting things in the [[Wikipedia:Template namespace|Template namespace]], which is used for reusable boilerplate messages and article series boxes. Deletion of these may be appropriate if the template:

==How to use this page==

* is not helpful or noteworthy;

===<span id="NOT"></span> What ''not'' to propose for discussion here===

* is redundant with [[Wikipedia:Categorization|categories]], [[Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists)|lists]], or other mechanisms;

{{shortcut|WP:TFD#NOT}}

* or is simply unused.

The majority of deletion and merger proposals concerning pages in the [[WP:Template namespace|template namespace]] and [[WP:Lua|module namespace]] should be listed on this page. However, there are a few exceptions:

; Stub templates

For guidelines on acceptable boilerplate messages, see [[Wikipedia:Template messages]].<br />

: Stub templates and categories should be listed at [[WP:CFD|Categories for discussion]], as these templates are merely containers for their categories, ''unless'' the stub template does not come with a category and is being nominated by itself.

For guidelines on acceptable article series boxes, see [[Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes]].

; Userboxes

: Userboxes should be listed at [[WP:MFD|Miscellany for deletion]], regardless of the namespace in which they reside.

; Speedy deletion candidates

: If the template clearly satisfies a [[WP:CSD|criterion for speedy deletion]], tag it with a [[:Category:Speedy deletion templates|speedy deletion template]]. For example, if you wrote the template and request its deletion, tag it with {{t|Db-author}}. See also [[WP:T5]].

; Policy or guideline templates

: Templates that are associated with particular [[WP:PAG|Wikipedia policies or guidelines]], such as the [[:Category:Speedy deletion templates|speedy deletion templates]], cannot be listed at TfD separately. They should be discussed on the talk page of the relevant guideline.

; Template redirects

: List all redirects at [[WP:RFD|Redirects for discussion]].

; Moving and renaming a template

: Use [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|Requested moves]].

===<span class="anchor" id="REASONS"></span> Reasons to delete a template===

If you vote, please ''give a reason'' how it either does or does not fulfill these criteria. Comments such as "I like it," or "I find it useful," while potentially true, generally do not fulfill this requirement.<br />

{{shortcut|WP:TFD#REASONS}}

In addition to voting "'''Keep'''" or "'''Delete'''," a valid vote on this page is "Convert to category." In this case, all pages with the template should be added to an appropriately named category, and the template should be deleted.

# The template violates some part of the [[WP:TMP|template namespace guidelines]], and can't be altered to be in compliance.

# The template is redundant to a better-designed template.

# The template is not used, either directly or by [[WP:SUBST|template substitution]] (the latter cannot be concluded from the absence of backlinks), {{Strong|and has no likelihood of {{em|being}} used}}.

# The template violates a policy such as [[WP:NPOV|Neutral point of view]] or [[WP:CIVIL|Civility]] and it can't be fixed through normal editing.

Templates listedshould onnot thisbe pagenominated doif notthe needissue tocan be orphansfixed priorby tonormal editing. listingInstead, and in factyou should notedit bethe removedtemplate fromto pagesfix priorits to listingproblems. However,If templatesthe musttemplate beis removedcomplex fromand allyou pagesdon't priorknow how to deletion.fix Currentlyit, this[[WP:WPT|WikiProject canTemplates]] onlymay be doneable to manuallyhelp.

Templates for which none of these apply may be deleted by [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] here. If a template is being misused, consider clarifying its documentation to indicate the correct use, or informing those that misuse it, rather than nominating it for deletion. Initiate a discussion on the template talk page if the correct use itself is under debate.

'''Marking templates to be voted on:''' Insert the text <nowiki>{{tfd}}</nowiki> to the top of templates you list here. This adds the following message:

===Listing a template===

{{tfd}}

{{shortcut|WP:TFDHOWTO|WP:TFDHOW}}

{{Strong|To list a template for deletion or merging, follow the three-step process below.}} Do {{em|not}} include the "Template:" prefix in any of the steps.

If you have never nominated a template for deletion or used [[WP:Twinkle|Twinkle]] before, you might want to do it manually to avoid making mistakes. For more experienced editors, using Twinkle is recommended, as it automates some of these steps. (After navigating to the template you want to nominate, click its dropdown menu in the top right of the page: TW [[File:OOjs UI icon caretDown.svg|15px|link=]], and then select "XFD".)

When adding this message to templates that are in the form of series boxes, the message should be placed inside the box, to make it clear what is being proposed for deletion. When being added to templates which have already been blanked, and are just sitting around as blanks, the message should be added to the template talk page. Again, ''do not blank'' templates to list them here - this is just if the template is already blank when you are listing it.

{| class="wikitable" style="clear: both;"

|- id="Step I"

! scope="row" style="background-color: #ffff99;" | Step 1

Tag the template

| style="padding: 0.5em;" | '''Paste one of the following notices to the top of the template page:'''

* '''For deletion:''' {{Tlxs|Tfd}}

* For deletion of a sidebar or infobox template: {{Tlxs|Tfd|2=type=sidebar}}

* For deletion of an inline template: {{Tlxs|Tfd|2=type=inline}} and don't add a newline after the notice.

* '''For merging:''' {{Tlxs|Tfm|{{var|{{Gray|name of other template}}}}}}

* For merging an inline template: {{Tlxs|Tfm|2=type=inline|3={{var|{{Gray|name of other template to be merged}}}}}} and don't add a newline after the notice.

* To delete a [[Help:Module|module]] or a different type of template, see {{section link|Template:Template for discussion#Display on articles}}

'''Note:'''

Templates that have been listed for more than five days are eligible for deletion if either a consensus to do so has been reached or no objections to its deletion have been raised. Such templates should be dealt with as soon as possible.

* If the template is [[Wikipedia:Page protection|protected]], request that the TfD notice be added on the template's talk page using the {{Tlx|editprotected}} template, to catch the attention of [[Wikipedia:Administrators|administrators]] or [[Wikipedia:Template editors|template editors]].

* If the template is designed to be [[WP:SUBST|substituted]], add {{tag|noinclude}} around the TfD notice to prevent it from being substituted alongside the template. Example: <code><nowiki><noinclude></nowiki><nowiki>{{subst:Tfd}}</nowiki><nowiki></noinclude></nowiki></code>

* Use an edit summary like<br /><code>Nominated for deletion/merging; see <nowiki>[[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#</nowiki>Template:{{var|{{Gray|name of template}}}}<nowiki>]]</nowiki></code>

* Before saving your edit, preview the page to ensure the TfD notice is displayed properly.

<hr style="margin-top:1em; margin-bottom:1em;" />

Archived discussions are located at [[/Log/Deleted]] and [[/Log/Not deleted]].

; Multiple templates: If you are nominating multiple templates, choose a meaningful title for the discussion (like "[[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2008 August 14#American films by decade|American films by decade templates]]"). Tag every template with {{Tlxs|Tfd|2=heading={{var|{{Gray|discussion title}}}}}} or {{Tlxs|Tfm|{{var|{{Gray|name of other template}}}}|3=heading={{var|{{Gray|discussion title}}}}}} instead of the versions given above, replacing <code>{{var|discussion title}}</code> with the title you chose (but still not changing the <code>PAGENAME</code> code).

; Related categories: If including template-populated tracking categories in the TfD nomination, paste {{Tlx|Catfd|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}}} to the top of any categories that could be deleted as a result of the TfD, replacing <code>{{var|template name}}</code> with the name of the nominated template. (If you instead nominated multiple templates, use the meaningful title you chose earlier: {{Tlx|Catfd|2=header={{var|{{Gray|title of nomination}}}}}}.)

; TemplateStyles pages: If you are nominating [[WP:TemplateStyles|TemplateStyles]] pages, these templates won't work. Instead, paste this CSS comment to the top of the page:

:<code>/* This template is being discussed in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy. Help reach a consensus at its entry: <nowiki>https://</nowiki>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{CURRENTYEAR}}_{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}}_{{CURRENTDAY}}#Template:{{var|{{Gray|template_name}}}}.css */</code>

|- id="Step II"

==Listings==

! scope="row" style="background-color: #ffcc00;" | Step 2

Please put new listings under [[#{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}|today's date]] at the '''''bottom of the page'''''.

List the template

| style="padding: 0.75em;" | {{Clickable button|Edit today's TfD log|url={{fullurl:Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{CURRENTYEAR}} {{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}|action=edit&section=1}}|class=mw-ui-progressive}} '''and paste the following text to the top of the list''':

* '''For deletion:''' {{Tlxs|Tfd2|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}|text{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|Why you think the template should be deleted.}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}}

* '''For merging:''' {{Tlxs|Tfm2|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|other template's name}}}}|text{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|Why you think the templates should be merged.}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}}

If the template has had previous TfDs, you can add {{tlx|Oldtfdlist|{{var|{{Gray|previous TfD without square brackets}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|result of previous TfD}}}}}} in the {{para|text}} field immediately before your rationale (or alternatively at the very end, after the last <code><nowiki>}}</nowiki></code>).

Use an edit summary such as <code>Adding deletion/merger nomination of <nowiki>[[</nowiki>Template:{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}<nowiki>]]</nowiki></code>.

<hr style="margin-top:1em; margin-bottom:1em;" />

; Multiple templates: If you are nominating multiple templates, paste the following code instead. You can add up to 50 template names (separated by vertical bar characters <code>|</code>). Use the same meaningful title that you chose in Step 1.

:* Multiple templates for deletion: {{Tlxs|Tfd2|{{var|{{Gray|template name 1}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|template name 2 ...}}}}|title{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|meaningful title}}}}|text{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|Why you think the templates should be deleted.}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}}

:* Multiple templates for merging: {{Tlxs|Tfm2|{{var|{{Gray|template name 1}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|template name 2 ...}}}}|with{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|main template (optional)}}}}|title{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|meaningful title}}}}|text{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|Why you think the templates should be merged.}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}}

:** If there is a template you want the other templates to be merged into, you can optionally specify it using {{para|with}}.

; Related categories: If this template deletion proposal involves a category populated solely by templates, paste this code in the {{para|text}} field of the <code><nowiki>{{Tfd2}}</nowiki></code> template, before your rationale: {{Tlxs|Catfd2|{{var|{{Gray|category name}}}}}}

|- id="Step III"

! scope="row" style="background-color: orange" | Step 3

Notify users

| style="padding: 0.5em;" | Notify the creator of the template, the main contributors, and (if you're proposing a merger) the creator of the other template. (To find them, look in the [[Help:Page history|page history]] or [[Help:Talk page|talk page]] of the template.) To do this, paste one of the following in their user talk pages:

* '''For deletion:''' {{Tlxs|Tfd notice|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}}} <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>

* '''For merging:''' {{Tlxs|Tfm notice|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|other template's name}}}}}} <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>

* '''Multiple templates:''' There is no template for notifying an editor about a multiple-template nomination. In these cases, write a personal message.

If you see any [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Directory|WikiProjects]] banners ([[Template:WikiProject banner shell/testcases#Template|they look like this]]) at the top of the template's talk page, you can let them know about the discussion. Most WikiProjects are subscribed to [[Wikipedia:Article alerts|Article alerts]], which means they are automatically notified. If you think they have not been notified, you can paste the same message in the projects' talk pages, or use [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Compact|Deletion sorting lists]]. Note that Twinkle does not notify WikiProjects.

===February 8===

|}

Consider adding any templates you nominate to your watchlist. This will help ensure that your nomination notice is not mistakenly or deliberately removed.

====[[Template:Cities of são paulo]]====

Maaan but this is a big template. Can you say "Category"? Probably with accompany "List of..." article because of the (200!) red links on the template [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 04:11, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Convert to categories''' -- [[User:Chris 73|Chris 73]] [[User talk:Chris 73|Talk]] 05:29, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

* '''Convert to categories'''. [[User:Evil Monkey|Evil Monkey]]&#8756;[[User talk:Evil Monkey|Hello]] 06:21, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

* '''Convert to List/Category''' &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Flamurai|flamurai]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Flamurai|t]]) 06:43, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

* There is a category [[:Category:Cities in São Paulo|Cities in São Paulo]], although a lot of the entries (enough to look at using a bot for) are in its parent category [[:Category:São Paulo state|São Paulo state]]. Many of them may also be best merged into a list. [[User:Susvolans|Susvolans]] [[User talk:Susvolans|(pigs can fly)]] 14:25, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

=== After nominating: Notify interested projects and editors ===

====[[Template:Now]]====

While it is sufficient to list a template for discussion at TfD, nominators and others sometimes want to attract more attention from and participation by informed editors. All such efforts must comply with [[WP:CANVASS|Wikipedia's guideline against biased canvassing]].

A template that just displays the current time. Barely any usage on Wikipedia. '''Delete.''' [[User:Andros 1337|Andros 1337]] 03:28, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete.''' What's wrong with <nowiki>~~~~~</nowiki>? I would be willing to change my vote if some explains why this is useful. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Flamurai|flamurai]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Flamurai|t]]) 04:35, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

**<nowiki>~~~~~</nowiki> gives the time when an edit is saved. Template:Now gives the time whan a page is loaded. Compare: "{{Now}}" with "23:57, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)". Not the same thing at all. (Yes, I know there is a mess caused by the tfd box.) --[[User:Henrygb|Henrygb]] 23:57, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC) I did not quite say that right, but the pointed is that <nowiki>~~~~~</nowiki> gets translated into a particular time and date while Template:Now will change in the future. --[[User:Henrygb|Henrygb]] 00:04, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*Not useful as a template, but it would be useful to have some way other than the five tildes to see what day it is, say. Not as silly as you think - it's necessary for the various deletion pages to know what day it is, and UTC changes in the middle of the day here, and at odd times of the day or night for many other people. I think I'll suggest something of the sort on the Village Pump, in fact... oh, but this template gets a '''weak delete''' - it may be that this is the method by which the problem is solved. Simply put the template at the top of the various tfd/cfd/vfd pages. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 05:25, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', it could have some use. [[User:Grue|Grue]] 06:20, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', I was going to say 'oh, we can just use the CURRENTTIME, CURRENTMONTHNAME, etc. template, but then I found myself in a situation where I really wanted to use this template. Can be a real handy time-saver. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 20:37, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' - has uses. --[[User:OldakQuill|Oldak]] [[User_talk:OldakQuill|Quill]] 18:33, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

To encourage participation by less experienced editors, avoid Wikipedia-specific abbreviations in the messages you leave about the discussion, link to any relevant policies or guidelines, and link to the TfD discussion page itself. If you are recommending that a template be speedily deleted, please give the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|criterion]] that it meets.

===February 11===

* '''Notifying related WikiProjects:''' [[WP:WikiProject|WikiProjects]] are groups of editors that are interested in a particular subject or type of editing. If the article is within the scope of one or more WikiProjects, they may welcome a brief, neutral note on their project's talk page(s) about the TfD. You can use {{Tls|Tfd notice}} for this. Tagging the nominated template's talk page with a relevant Wikiproject's banner will result in the template being listed in that project's ''[[WP:AALERTS|Article Alerts]]'' automatically, if they are [[Wikipedia:Article_alerts/Subscription_list|subscribed to the system]]. For instance, tagging a template with {{tl|WikiProject Physics}} will list the discussion in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Physics/Article alerts]].

====[[Template:IKantWrite]]====

* '''Notifying main contributors:''' While not required, it is generally considered courteous to notify the creator and any main contributors of the template and its talk page that you are nominating for discussion. To find the creator and main contributors, look in the [[Help:Page history|page history]] or [[Help:Talk page|talk page]].

Mostly red links, organized semi-randomly. While they could be ordered chronologically, this would be better served by a "preceded by/followed by" box, and, really, what this topic wants is an article on the works of Immanuel Kant that can make clear their relations, as what you really want is to divide it into aesthetics, ethics, metaphysics, and politics, and then to have the works there highlighting the major critical works and the more minor essays, and explaining which ones are restatements of which, which ones follow which, etc. In either case, the way to do this is manifestly not this template. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 13:48, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Agree''' entirely. Good title, though... [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 02:39, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

At this point, no further action is necessary on your part. Sometime after seven days have passed, someone other than you will either close the discussion or, if needed, "[[WP:RELIST|relist]]" it for another seven days of discussion. If the nomination is successful, it will be moved to the [[WP:TFDH|Holding Cell]] until the change is implemented. There is no requirement for nominators to be part of the implementation process, but they are allowed to if they so wish.

===February 13 ===

====[[Template:Timeline CGI in movies]]====

:This was an attempt to produce an illustrative timeline for [[Timeline of CGI in movies]]. However, that article has evolved into a different format - a table with illustrations, so this timeline is no longer useful. Please delete. [[User:Paranoid|Paranoid]] 20:15, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

==Discussion==

Was originally listed on [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Timeline CGI in movies|VFD]], but seems like nothing happened. I'm listing it here as was suggested on the VfD page. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Timeline_CGI_in_movies&action=history As page history displays], [[User:Paranoid]] both created the first version and added the VfD tag. Probably wasn't aware of how to delete a template. '''Delete'''. —[[User:Markaci|Mar]]·[[User_talk:Markaci|ka]]·[[Special:Contributions/Markaci|ci]]:<small>2005-02-13 10:31 Z</small>

Anyone can join the discussion, but please understand the [[WP:deletion policy|deletion policy]] and explain your reasoning.

'''Delete'''. Unused. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Flamurai|flamurai]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Flamurai|t]]) 19:13, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

People will sometimes also recommend '''[[Wikipedia:Template substitution|subst]]''', '''subst and delete''', or similar. This means they think the template text should be "[[Hard coding|hard-coded]]" into the articles that are currently using it. Depending on the content, the template itself may then be deleted; if preserving the edit history for attribution is desirable, it may be [[Wikipedia:History merging|history-merged]] with the target article or moved to mainspace and redirected.

====[[Template:Delete unused redirect]]====

Title misleading about reasons to delete redirects. Being "unused" (ie no inbound links) is generally NOT a reason to delete a redirect. Redirs are for common misspellings and alternate phrasings and capitalizations. Currently has been applied to a bunch of redirs created by moves that probably shouldn't be deleted because if one person used that phrasing, there are probably others. [[Template:Redirects with no target]] would be valid, but after the recent collaboration to get rid of them, probably wouldn't be used often enuf to justify the template. [[User:Niteowlneils|Niteowlneils]] 17:25, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Templates are rarely orphaned—that is, removed from pages that transclude them—before the discussion is closed. A list of open discussions eligible for closure can be found at [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Old unclosed discussions]].

* '''Delete''': unused but meaningful redirects are helpful so this template should not be used. It also disrupts redirects. --[[User:Henrygb|Henrygb]] 18:31, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Keep''', though possibly renamed or reworded. I created and used it in response to [[User talk:SPUI#Adminship -- Suggestion]]. It only disrupts redirects that are not being used, and that would not be idly typed. They only existed because of earlier naming conventions, and right now simply make it harder to move the articles when the naming conventions change. By the way, I just added {{tl|tfd}} to the template; if I didn't have this page already on my watchlist I wouldn't have known about the proposed deletion. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 18:47, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**Sorry I forgot to tag it. I strenuously disagree with Cecropia's belief they should be deleted--if someone thot the article belonged at that title, another might, and leaving redirects at the alternate titles prevents accidental article duplication. Given that, so few redirs should be deleted that it seems like they can be handled using {deletebecause}. IMHO, most, if not all of the redirs currently using this template need to have their double/tripleness fixed, not deleted. [[User:Niteowlneils|Niteowlneils]] 20:55, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

***This does use {{tl|db}}; I simply made a template to make personal use of that one easier. I really don't see anyone typing in 125th Street (New York Subway); it would be either 125th Street or 125th Street Station, both of which would give the proper articles if search is up, and both of which are way to ambiguous for anything else. More likely is that someone would realize that there are so many different ways to name them and would instead type in [[New York City Subway]] or one of its redirects and go from there. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 12:39, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Keep''': The subway redirects are short term usages created while hashing out style. Sometimes we simply need to do housekeeping to keep the number of useless redirects in the database from muddying the question of why these redirects were created in the first place, and why they should be eliminated. The deleted subway redirects:

**Have nothing pointing to them, so won't break any redirect chains

**Are extremely unlikely to be typed, as they're awkward

**Are not being removed "politically"--i.e., to further a political point-of-viw

*IOW, if those who know why the redirects were created in the first place, and know why they are obsolete don't do it, it will never be done. -- [[User:Cecropia|Cecropia]] | [[User talk:Cecropia|''explains it all'' ®]] 17:02, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:OK. So someone adds [[14th Street-Union Square IRT Lexington Avenue Line station]]. A natural place to move/merge it might be [[14th Street (New York City Subway)]] (the word "station" is often not used in articles for similar topics in other cities [eg [[Tung Chung (MTR)]]]). Under your plan, that doesn't exist so it goes there. Leaving the redir points them to [[14th Street (New York City Subway station)]]. Redirs are cheap--why delete potentially useful ones? [[User:Niteowlneils|Niteowlneils]] 19:07, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

::Because they're a pain in the ass to deal with when moving pages. Why do we not have an option to automatically eliminate double redirects? By the way, the word 'station' is added because a few names in station names also describe other aspects of the subway, like Brooklyn Bridge (over which two BMT tracks used to run). --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 19:17, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:::Redirs created by moves have no effect on page moves unless they've been editted, which you only caused by adding speedy tags. [[User:Niteowlneils|Niteowlneils]] 19:50, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

::::Redirs created by moves don't change when you move again. Create [[User:Niteowlneils/movetest]]. Move it somewhere, and then move that one. If I'm not on crack, [[User:Niteowlneils/movetest]] will have to be edited to fix the double redir. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 21:35, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:::::Yes, double redirs require manual correction. I thot you were referring to moving back over the redir. Sorry for the misunderstanding. [[User:Niteowlneils|Niteowlneils]] 21:52, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete''' this and the redirect [[Template:Dur]]. We only need [[Template:Deletebecause]] if one needs to provide reasons for a speedy deletion. As a side note, none of these subway redirects is a speedy delete, and should have gone to [[Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion]]. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 18:53, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)

* '''Delete'''. Based on the reason listed in the template, those redirects wouldn't be speediable because of the subjective standard "is not useful". Anything that uses this template should go to [[Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion]]. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Flamurai|flamurai]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Flamurai|t]]) 19:05, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

* '''Comment''': I'm probably not going to fix [[:Category:New York City Subway stations that share a name]], at least not for a while. I'm not going to fix these double redirects either; the necessity of fixing them is fairly ridiculous when one considers that it shouldn't be too hard to add an option to automatically fix them. So whoever deletes this needs to fix the double redirects, while I'm off doing something useful. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 19:17, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:Dbl redirs fixed in 31 minutes, including a cigarette break and unrelated edits. [[User:Niteowlneils|Niteowlneils]] 20:33, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. There's nothing wrong with <nowiki>{{db|it's a pointless redirect.}}</nowiki>. &mdash; [[User:MikeX|MikeX]] [[User Talk:MikeX|(talk)]] 20:46, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

*:That's what this is. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 21:35, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:::Yes... that's why there's very little point to this template. Were I given to [[Slippery slope|silliness]], I might suggest that this will eventually lead to the creation and use of templates like <nowiki>{{LetterA}}</nowiki> producing 'A'. &mdash; [[User:MikeX|MikeX]] [[User Talk:MikeX|(talk)]] 05:22, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

*Comment. There seems to be a whole rash of secretive NYCS-related templates that haven't been posted on [[Wikipedia:Template messages/All]]--[[Wikipedia:WikiProject_New_York_City_Subway#Templates]]. [[User:Niteowlneils|Niteowlneils]] 21:52, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**"Some other templates are for use in specific articles, like {{tl|NYCS list}} in [[List of New York City Subway stations]]. A look at the source should make usage obvious." --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 22:03, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

===February 14Closing discussion ===

Administrators should read the [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Closing instructions|closing instructions]] before closing a nomination. Note that [[WP:XFDcloser]] semi-automates this process and ensures all of the appropriate steps are taken.

====[[Template:A1]] and friends====

([[Template:A1|A1]], [[Template:A2|A2]], [[Template:A3|A3]], [[Template:A4|A4]], [[Template:E1|E1]], [[Template:E2|E2]], [[Template:E3|E3]], [[Template:E4|E4]], [[Template:I1|I1]], [[Template:I2|I2]], [[Template:I3|I3]], [[Template:I4|I4]], [[Template:O1|O1]], [[Template:O2|O2]], [[Template:O3|O3]], [[Template:O4|O4]], [[Template:U1|U1]], [[Template:U2|U2]], [[Template:U3|U3]], [[Template:U4|U4]], and their corresponding MediaWiki: redirects.)

</div>

Each of these creates a different diaretic character, but no articles use them, probably since it's easier to just use the clickable characters below the edit box. [[User:Goplat|Goplat]] 16:10, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete all''' - you beat me to it. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 18:42, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)

*'''Delete all'''. Agreed. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Flamurai|flamurai]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Flamurai|t]]) 19:09, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete all'''. Since they now appear at the bottom of every page, this seems quite redundant. [[User:Niteowlneils|Niteowlneils]] 19:32, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete all'''. Redundant. [[User:Jni|jni]] 13:04, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Nycsubwaydisambig]]====

Overly specialized; puts disambig msg on top, before the ''useful'' info. The world does not revolve around NYC (despite its residents' contrary opinion). [[User:Niteowlneils|Niteowlneils]] 19:32, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:It seems that redirs to [[Template:NYCS disambig]], which is included in this nomination. [[User:Niteowlneils|Niteowlneils]] 21:26, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete''' - Subway information is already out of hand. [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not|Wikipedia is not a general knowledge base]]. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 20:53, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)

** '''Comment''': I'm not sure what part of the general knowledge base policy would cover subay articles. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 21:07, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

** '''Comment''': This is the kind of stuff that makes me assume bad faith. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 22:21, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

***See also [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Fort Totten (Washington Metro)]] --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 23:12, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - Niteowlneils saw fit to remove it from everywhere it was used, and I'm not going to be making these disambig pages any more. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 22:21, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:Jni|jni]] 13:04, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

==== [[Template:Deletebecauseoncommons]] ====

(and redirect at [[Template:dbc]])

We already have two templates which handle both aspects of this one. [[Template:NowCommons]] documents that the image is at Commons, and [[Template:ifd]] marks those images which are up for deletion. Compare [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Tears.jpg&diff=next&oldid=10263251 here] where I replaced use of this template with the appropriate ones. There is no special reason to combine these two ideas into a single template. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 20:48, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' - it should be encouraged to upload files to commons under the same name, to avoid having to change the articles. And there's no reason {{tl|NowCommons}} shouldn't be like this one (which I created not knowing of NowCommons's existence, if it existed at the time). --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 22:18, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

** I '''agree''', but we already have templates to handle this. This one is redundant with those established ones. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 02:29, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC)

=== February 15 ===

====[[Template:CamNotice]]====

A variation on the now deleted [[Template:CamTanNotice]] that exists mostly to make a Wikiproject's internal "standards of quality" sound like some sort of binding policy. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 00:56, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

*It's also hideously ugly. '''Delete'''. &mdash; [[User:MikeX|MikeX]] [[User Talk:MikeX|(talk)]] 05:17, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

*'''KEEP''' First of all, the complaint is being made by Snowspinner. Second, all templates can be edited, just like an article. Hence, anything offensive can be changed. Third, it is starndard part of projects to disply a notice in the talk page. Nothing unique to this project about project notices in the talk page. Don't like the look, then change it. -- [[User:John Gohde|John Gohde]] 10:18, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**Since when is the nominator a reason to vote keep or delete? [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 15:29, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

***I believe that the obvious answer is '''patterns of behavior''' of the nominator. -- [[User:John Gohde|John Gohde]] 14:52, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 19:54, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)

*delete, inappropriate --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 20:29, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment''', maybe it should be reworded to be more similar to the other such Wikiproject talk page notices? ('''Abstain''' from vote) --[[User:Sketchee|Sketchee]] 05:40, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)

==== [[Template:February 26]] ====

(also the redirect [[MediaWiki:February 26]]) Old duplicate of [[Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/February 26]]. [[User:Goplat|Goplat]] 00:31, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 19:54, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:Jni|jni]] 06:54, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

==== [[Template:Netherlands]] ====

Unused. It was tagged speedy, but templates aren't candidates, so I'm listing it here. [[User:Dbenbenn|dbenbenn]] | [[User talk:Dbenbenn|talk]] 18:43, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 19:54, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:Jni|jni]] 13:06, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

==== [[Template:CamRequiredNotice]] ====

Yet another CAM box, redundant with CamNotice and CamTanNotice. What on Earth does it mean to be a required part of a project? [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 18:54, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

:"What does it mean to be a required part of a project?" I suggest that you try reading the project page. Maybe you might even try reading the notice that you are trying to delete? '''''"a required part of the Wikiproject on Alternative Medicine CAM menu navigational system."''''' -- [[User:John Gohde|John Gohde]] 20:15, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 19:54, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)

*Ugly templates must die. '''Delete.''' &mdash; [[User:MikeX|MikeX]] [[User Talk:MikeX|(talk)]] 20:54, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

*'''KEEP''' First of all, the complaint is being made by Snowspinner. Second, all templates can be edited, just like an article. Hence, anything offensive can be changed. Third, it is starndard part of projects to disply a notice in the talk page. Nothing unique to this project about project notices in the talk page. Don't like the look, then change it. [[User:John Gohde|John Gohde]] 21:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Most Cam project notices have been made redundant with the category option. Perhaps John can think of a more generic way of linking articles to the Wikiproject. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 21:32, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**Project notices exist in order to attract editors to the project. -- [[User:John Gohde|John Gohde]] 22:09, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

===February 16 ===

====[[Template:Politics of Taiwan]]====

This template should be renamed [[Template:Politics of the Republic of China]]. Quoted from [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Political NPOV|Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)]]: "''<font color=navy>the word "Taiwan" should not be used if the term "Republic of China" is more accurate.''</font>". &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:39, Feb 16 2005 (UTC)

See also the ongoing discussion at [[Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Politics_of_Taiwan_&rarr;_Politics_of_the_Republic_of_China|Wikipedia:Requested moves#Politics of Taiwan]]. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 10:54, Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

**By nominating I support '''renaming'''. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:41, Feb 16 2005 (UTC)

*Plase be consequent with the dicussion at the move Politics of China page. (I oppose there).[[User:Wilfried Derksen|Gangulf]] 20:38, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' Most people would be confused about the term "Republic of China", which is hardly ever used. Use the more common and the only generally understood term, [[User:Jguk|jguk]] 19:36, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**"Taiwan" is not an accurate and NPOV title. If one gets confused it just a few clicks to double check at the relevant artices on Wikipedia. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 20:00, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': This is an Wikipedia internal matter and has no effect on the content of articles. I dont see what would be gained by moving this.--[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 04:59, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**Not really. If the title is not renamed I will proposed to remove contents not related to the island or the province of Taiwan, and to add brief contents about politics of Taiwan during Japanese occupation, the Qing era, the Cheng Ch'eng Kung era, and the early colonisation by Dutch and Portuguese, with the politics sections in history of Taiwan as the main articles. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:20, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

***...which will simply make more work for yourself, and take up more time which could be used for debating oher things, since I seriously doubt that that move would be supported. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 09:16, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

****Agree. But that's the cost of keeping this title. Assistance from whom opposed the move would be necessary. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 10:57, Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

*'''Support'''. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]^{[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]} 20:23, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' - agree with Jguk - the term "Republic of China" is not understood to mean Taiwan in much of the world, rather the term would instantly make people think "China", which would make them think mainland China. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 09:16, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**The content of the template already tells it's about "Politics of the Republic of China (Taiwan)". &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 10:58, Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' or move and keep as a redirect. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 11:41, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**So do you support a move? &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 12:47 Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

*'''Support Rename'''. "Taiwan" is ambiguous. I personally prefer "Politics of the Republic of China (Taiwan)" which is the most precise and accurate wording. There are also probably enough stubs that a "Politics of Taiwan - pre-Republic of China" stub should also be created. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''<font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 05:17, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

=====Compromise=====

I had some discussion with [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] and I suggested the compromise to name these kind of templates ..of Republic of China - Taiwan. I think this might be less POV [[User:Wilfried Derksen|Gangulf]] 22:16, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:Gangulf [[User_talk:Instantnood#Compromise|agreed]] with "..of Republic of China (Taiwan)" but she/he prefers "..of Republic of China - Taiwan". &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 22:21 Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

===February 17 ===

====[[Template:Hawaiian]]====

This template is not used in any article right now, which would imply that the "Hawaiian NPOV dispute" is either dead or just hitting a dry spot. Either way, it doesn't seem like a template like this is the best way to handle this type of dispute. [[User:Szyslak|Szyslak]] 08:57, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' since it's not used and unecessary. I never saw the point of this template from the beginning. [[User:Angela|Angela]][[user talk:Angela|.]] 15:52, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Rename]]====

Inferior to and redundant with [[Template:Move]]. "rename" is just another name for "move". <s>This template is only being used by one user--its creator.</s> Delete the related category too--[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 20:16, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Redirect''' if only to prevent recreation by someone else caught unawares. Move and Rename are both correct terms. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 23:55, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''', see comment below. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 17:49, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': [[User:Jiang|Jiang]] would you mind showing the evidence that this template is only used by [[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]] who created it at 23:33, Jul 5 2004? &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 17:51, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

**That's not a argument against redunandacy. Why not redirect and merge the categories? --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 18:26, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

***I opposed because of possibly inaccurate information by the nominator. I might cross my vote out if it got settled. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:16, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

****crossed out. please provide a legitimate reason for opposing--[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 21:42, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*****First it is not anybody's obligation to provide reasons to satisfy your standard of legitimacy. Second please verify your arguments before listing them out.<br>To my understanding the two templates are not redundant or overlapping, whatever you call it. The two templates are also not inferior to each other. The [[Template:Rename|rename template]] serves as an notice that they is such a proposal, and readers can discuss with it at the discussion page, or should at least be aware of the accuracy of the title and the scope of the content of the article. It is not the same as a vote for renaming/moving, like what the [[Template:Move|move template]] is functioning as. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 22:55, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

******If it's just a proposal, then the tag should not be necessary. People dont stick up tags every time they post something on the talk page. It just makes the article ugly. If it is to be discussed, then I dont see why we should be circumventing [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]] or else that page should not exist at all. I see the difference in procedure, but I dont see the difference in intended result and therefore the necessity to have a different procedure. --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 23:26, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*******With this notice added, readers can be aware of the accuracy of the title, and the scope of the content of the article or category. Whether such article or categories should be put forward to [[WP:RM|Wikipedia:Requested moves]] or [[WP:CFD|Wikipedia:Categories for deletion]] depends on the relevant conventions, and will be subjected to lengthy discussion. In other words the two templates have different functions. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 23:36, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

********If the title is "inaccurate" then why not just go ahead demand that it be moved? If there's something confusing in the content, we add a disambiguation notice or make it obvious in the intro. I really dont see how this is necessary when we dont otherwise tag articles just to discuss something. This template is hideous and certainly isnt inciting lengthy discussion. Putting it on requested moved (for articles) or categories for deltion (for categories) ''does'', however, promote discussion and is much more effective.--[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 04:53, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*********The proposed new title of many of these articles or categories are vacant, and the renaming could be done by clicking the "move" button on the top of the page. Whether they should be renamed depends on the naming conventions and perhaps the relevant ongoing discussions. I know the title of the two templates look alike, but the two templates do not have the same function at the time being. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:05, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

**********Then discuss and then move. The template is not necessary. It's ugly --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 02:02, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

***********Do you think the <nowiki>{{move}}</nowiki> can fill the time gap before the move? &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:12, Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete'''. Either a move is disputed, it needs admin attention because of history issues, or you just do it yourself. I don't see the need for this template. Anyway, it should be used on the talk page, not the article. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Flamurai|flamurai]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Flamurai|t]]) 07:05, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Move to Wikipedia]]====

A joke? -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 23:55, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', we should really be able to speedy nonsense like this. I wonder if a patent nonsense claim would be acceptable for junk like this... -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 23:58, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

=== February 18 ===

==== [[Template:CompactTOCwithnumbers]] ====

(and redirect at [[MediaWiki:CompactTOCwithnumbers]])

Completely redundant with [[Template:CompactTOC]], and badly named. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 07:55, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)

==== [[Template:CompactTOCwithnumbers2]] ====

(and redirect at [[MediaWiki:CompactTOCwithnumbers2]])

Completely redundant with [[Template:CompactTOC2]], and badly named. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 07:55, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)

====[[Template:Taiwan-stub]]====

(and the category [[:Category:Taiwan-related stubs]])

The flag of the Republic of China (ROC) is used in this template, and the articles linked to it can be ROC-related. Taiwan is not an accurate and NPOV terms to refer to the ROC, for neither the [[Taiwan|island of Taiwan]] nor the [[Taiwan Province|province of Taiwan]] covers 100% of ROC's territories.

<br>Suggestions: rename as [[Template:ROC-stub]] (or [[Template:Republic of China-stub]]), or spliting into [[Template:ROC-stub]] and [[Template:Taiwan-stub]]. <br>(see also relevant discussions at [[WP:RM|Wikipedia:Requested moves]]) &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:20, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

*By nominating I support '''renaming''' as [[Template:ROC-stub]]. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:21, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' The term ROC is not commonly used (at least outside the US). Most people would just find it confusing. Keep with the less-confusing name (and change the flag if you wish!) [[User:Jguk|jguk]] 19:34, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**"Taiwan" is not an accurate and NPOV title. And I don't think the wikipedians who have set up the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#NPOV|conventions]] and placed the ROC article at [[Republic of China]] (but not [[Taiwan]]) are all from the states. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:26, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

*<s>'''OPPOSE'''</s> '''Neutral''' Calling "Taiwan" as a term to be POV is just like calling "Hong Kong" a POV. That template only needs to change the current logo into a logo with Taiwan island. I have been trying to look for a proper sized logo for that replacement. Does the template of China-sub imply all the Chinese people are Lizard? Certainly not. Is every single Chinese are Han and thus the decendence of the Dragon? Nope. Taiwan stub does not have to cover everything that has to be covered in Taiwan island. It only needs to cover Taiwan-realted topics. By your suggestion to enforce the NPOV policy upon Taiwan without pratical ambiguity, we might need to apply the same standard upon the China-stub too.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 20:15, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**Should stubs about Quemoy, Matsu and perhaps Pratas and Taiping be added the tag <nowiki>{{Taiwan-stub}}</nowiki>? &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 20:49, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

***I would stand neutral if it split into ROC and Taiwan. Still, please also note that Taiwan is a name more representitive than ROC in all aspect. If we want to confuse people and make readers not able to recognize the political entity based on Taiwan, replacing Taiwan with ROC is the way to go.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 07:31, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

****"Taiwan" fails to represent the entirety of the territories under ROC's control. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:13, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

*****Quemoy and Matsu could be classified as Taiwan-related since they are ruled by ROC, a government based in Taiwan. If you insist to separate Taiwan and ROC, I do not see a problem to split the two entities if a large overlapping in the two category is not a big deal to other Wikipedians.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 00:10, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

******The situation would be more complicated to include non-Taiwan-related topics as Taiwan-related. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:21, Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

*******I do not think contributers who are familiar with the geopolitics in this area would find it difficult to exert their fund of knowledge to make the appropriate discretion.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 06:49, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*****Gozo is politically part of Malta, even though it's not on Malta. Isla de Pinos is politically in Cuba even though it's not on Cuba. Quemoy is politically in Taiwan, even though it's not on Taiwan. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]]

******Quemoy is not politically in a political entity named Taiwan. The only political entity named Taiwan that really exists is the [[Taiwan Province|province of Taiwan]] of the [[Republic of China]]. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 07:48 Feb 24 2005 (UTC)

*'''Suppot'''. ROC is shorter and more accurate. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]^{[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]} 21:49, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)

**Comment: That is only three letter shorter and not necessarily more accurate. I remember there are ~20 countries' name could be shortened as ROC.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 07:31, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

***Would you mind giving some examples? The only one I could name is Republic of the Congo. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:14, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

****So the actual number is 11 excluding the ROC discussed here:

<table style="background:transparent"><tr><td width=70>&nbsp;</td><td width=30>&nbsp;</td><td>[[Republic of Cyprus]],[[Republic of Chile]],[[Republic of Colombia]],[[Republic of Cuba]],[[Republic of Costa Rica]],[[Republic of the Congo]],[[Republic of Cameroon]],[[Republic of Cape Verde]],[[Republic of Chad]],[[Republic of Cote d'Ivoire]],[[Republic of Croatia]].Using ROC to call Republic of China is not more accurate than using Taiwan.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 00:10, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)</td></tr><tr><td width=70><td colspan=2>

*Is "[[ROC]]" a common acronym for any of the named countries? &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:22, Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

**possibly not, but is it a common abbreviation for Taiwan? The only time I've ever heard of ROC as an abbreviation, it was in psychophysics graphs (Type I and type II decision making processes), the Russian orthodox Church, or for Right of Centre politics. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 04:17, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

***On the packets of many of the products from Taiwan, "Product of Taiwan, R.O.C." is marked. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 12:48 Feb 21 2005 (UTC)

****let me put the question a different way - is it used as an abbreviation for Taiwan anywhere except Taiwan? [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 05:36, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*****I am not from Taiwan and I do not know what is written on the packets of products for the domestic market. My observation is from the packets of products exported. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 07:49 Feb 24 2005 (UTC)</td></tr></table>

*****Less and less products are labeled as "Product of Taiwan, R.O.C.", instead, more and more use Taiwan directly.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 07:00, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''strongly oppose'''. 1) [[:Category:Taiwan-related stubs]] is a subcategory if [[:Category:Taiwan]]. Taiwan is by far the more widely known name for the country/province. 2) By referring to it by its official name of "Republic of China", there will be more confusion, since the China People's Republic is also a "Republic of China". [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 23:44, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**There are already [[:Category:Republic of China]] and [[:Category:Taiwan]]. The same rule should be applied. Only the current government in Taipei bears the official title of "Republic of China", but not the one in Beijing. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:14, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

***...and if you asked 100 people what the capital of the Republic of China was, 95 would probably say Beijing. (Well, quite a number would probably say Peking, but...). "Republic of China" is simply too confusing a name to use. (Perhaps China-Taipei would be a reasonable compromise, but that ignores everywhere except the capital). [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]]

****I could compromise to have the category titled "Republic of China (Taiwan)..." or "ROC (Taiwan)...". &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:23, Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 23:59, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. --[[User:Viriditas|Viriditas ]] | [[User_talk:Viriditas|Talk]] 00:55, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. Agree with Grutness. --[[User:Jag123|jag123]] 17:41, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*Support '''Rename'''. "Taiwan" is ambiguous and imprecise. I personally prefer "Republic of China (Taiwan)stub" which is the most accurate wording. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''<font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 05:25, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**'''Comment''' What are being supported here? Changing name or supporting splitting the two entities, ROC and Taiwan? Though Taiwan and ROC overlaps greatly, the political implication and also the legal implication is entirely different. For a great population in Taiwan, they have differently meanings.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 05:56, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

***I suggested both, although I guess renaming would perhaps be more practical at the time being. Taiwan is currently entirely administered by the ROC, but not all ROC-related topics are Taiwan-related. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 06:07 Feb 23 2005 (UTC)

****Do you suggenting that ROC governemt had a role in helping Dutch rule Taiwan? Or perhaps Japanese rule was a colloaboration between the two government? Not all Taiwan-related topics are ROC-related either.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 06:35, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*****Exactly. Splitting will be the most appropriate, but it's not practical at the time being. To create a new stub template/category, normally at least 100 stub articles are needed. (See [[WP:WSS#Policy]]) &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 06:48 Feb 23 2005 (UTC)

******Please apply the same standard toward your Hong Kong sub categories before calling on Taiwan stub.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Criteria#Merge_Hong_Kong] All the HK stubs add up only meeting the criteria for creating merely one stub category. I do not see any reason why HK deserves six stub categories while Taiwan cannot have one.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 03:01, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*******They are already created, and it relies on the decision at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Criteria|WP:WSS/Criteria]] to have them merged and resorted. To have a new stub category, the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Policy|requirements]] have to be fulfilled. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 07:11 Feb 23 2005 (UTC)

********Thanks for the information. I think perhaps we should focus on the current proposal and see any consensus is reached. If not, we can go on and propose the ROC template as well. I do not see either way would be a problem.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 08:00, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Strongly oppose''', for all the reasons other experienced Wikipedia editors of China/Taiwan-related topics state above. &mdash;[[User:Lowellian|Lowellian]] ([[User talk:Lowellian|talk]]) 09:07, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:China-stub]]====

(and the category [[:Category:China-related stubs]])

Currently it covers stubs of both [[mainland China]]-related topics and [[China]]-related topics. The former deals with articles of mainland China (i.e. [[People's Republic of China]] (PRC) excluding [[Hong Kong]] and [[Macao]]), and the latter deals with things about China in general, such as historical events, calligraphy, etc.

The suggestion is to split the template into two, with the titles [[Template:China-stub]] and [[Template:Mainland China-stub]] respectively. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 20:53, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

*By nominating I support '''spliting''' the template. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 20:54, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

**Out of curiosity, do you plan to update all of the articles that use these templates? --[[User:Jag123|jag123]] 23:52, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

***Yes. But that will be incredibly time consuming and everybody's help is welcome and necessary. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:22, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

*'''strongly oppose'''. Current use of this template is for items relating to Mainland China and those relating to the whole of China (both mainland and Taiwan) prior to the latter's secession. Furthermore, Mainland China still claims sovereignty over Taiwan, and as such some articles relating to Mainland China post-1949 also relate to Taiwan. Sorting out exactly which is which is best left to those who are working on Chinese articles, and they will find it far easier to look through one category than two (largely overlapping) categories.

**The two split categories will be linked to each other. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:05, Feb 26 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. Discuss these desires to split templates/categories in the context of the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting|stub sorting Wikiproject]]. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 23:58, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)

**Thank tou. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:24, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

*'''oppose''' this "mainland China" thing only appeared because of the communist rebellion (aka revolution) and the need to distinguish the two Chinas. What do we do about imperial and ancient China? If this gets large enough, then maybe create a stub for Communist China, but otherwise, its awkward to limit Chinese historical topics to "mainland China"--[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 04:56, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**'''Comment''': if the idea of this proposal is analogous to the Taiwan-related template, then this proposal should be separating PRC from China, not mainland-China from China. Current proposal separates HK and Macau from China.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 07:59, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

***There will be five, namely China, mainland China, ROC, Hong Kong, and Macao. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 12:01, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

****I did not see PRC in your proposed categories. Do you mean that ROC is part of China/PRC as HK Macao are? That would constitute a political POV. Or I'm missing something?[[User:Mababa|Mababa]]

*****Sorry for making you confused. I did not suggest PRC-stub because Hong Kong already has its own stubs template and category. Mainland China would be a preferred term to denotes Hong Kong (and probably Macao) are excluded. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:36 Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

*****I regret to inform you that I am not the one get confused. By not creating PRC-stub, your proposal brings HK and Macau to the same political level as ROC, but still separate them from mainland China. Since HK, Macau, and mainland China are all under the jurisdiction of PRC, your proposal actually puts ROC at the same level of HK SAR and thus create the mis-perception that ROC is under PRC as HK. I am not interested in the underlying reason why you persistently make the distinction between mainland China and HK+Macau (I am sure that you must have a very good reason to do so); however, this is a clear political POV biasing against ROC and should not be tolerated. The best thing we could do, if we ever want to make a distinction between these entities, is to creat a PRC-stub and a ROC stub under the cap of China-stub. Then, have mainland China, HK and Macau stubs under the PRC stub. It could be my fault that I should have explain my concern earlier, so that my question would not confuse you at the very beginning. Sorry about that.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 03:57, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**(to [[User:Jiang|Jiang]]) I am not proposing a renaming, but spliting. Things related to imperial or ancient China will be kept at [[Template:China-stub]]. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:27, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose.''' --[[User:Viriditas|Viriditas ]] | [[User_talk:Viriditas|Talk]] 08:58, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' -- So after this "deletion"... there will still be a template called "[[Template:China-stub]]" ? That's not a deletion, it's just splitting off a subcategory. -- [[User:Curps|Curps]] 11:35, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**There will be two categories, with one using the title [[Template:China-stub]]. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 12:01, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' PRC was not isolated from China while the ROC was asked to be segregated from Taiwan and to be part of China (which implicitly implying PRC) in this proposal.[[User:Mababa|Mababa]] 00:38, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**Not really. My proposal is to take [[Template:China-stub]] off the topics which are only mainland China-related or only ROC-related. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 14:12 Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' Same reasons as above - ancient nation-concept China is much more relavant as a category than the present nation-concepts of PRC and ROC. [[User:Pratyeka|prat]] 03:59, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**The [[Template:China-stub]] will be kept for topics related to China as an (ancient) nation-concept (e.g. [[1556 Shaanxi earthquake]]), and for topics that deal with China as a whole (e.g. [[Great unity]] and [[Three links]]). The proposed [[Template:People's Republic of China-stub]] (or [[Template:PRC-stub]]) will be used for topics that are only PRC-related (e.g. [[Ministry of State Security]]).

*'''Strongly oppose''', for all the reasons other experienced Wikipedia editors of China/Taiwan-related topics state above. &mdash;[[User:Lowellian|Lowellian]] ([[User talk:Lowellian|talk]]) 09:10, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:China-geo-stub]]====

(and the category [[:Category:China geography stubs]])

Currently it covers geostubs of both [[mainland China]] and territories under the control of the [[Republic of China]] (ROC). Hong Kong geostubs are already covered by [[Template:HK-geo-stub|Template:Hong Kong-geo-stub]].

The suggestion is to split the template into two, with the titles [[Template:Mainland China-geo-stub]] and [[Template:ROC-geo-stub]] (or [[Template:Republic of China-geo-stub]]) respectively. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 20:56, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

There are currently 201 articles in the category of China geography stubs.

Two involves both mainland China and the ROC

*[[Taiwan Strait]],

*[[Cathay]],

16 are related to the ROC only

<table style="background:transparent"><td>

*[[Chiayi]],

*[[Chungli City]],

*[[Cishan, Kaohsiung]],

*[[Douliou City]],

*[[Fongyuan]],

*[[Fort Zeelandia (Taiwan)]],</td><td>

*[[Guanmiao, Tainan]],

*[[Guantian, Tainan]],

*[[Jhubei City]],

*[[Jhudong, Hsinchu]],

*[[Kenting National Park]],</td><td>

*[[Tsoying]],

*[[Wufong, Taichung]],

*[[Xiaonanmen Branch]],

*[[Yongkang City]],

*[[Yunlin County]], </td></table>

and 183 are related to mainland China only. (No article is related to Hong Kong or Macao.) &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:03, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

Currently, most ROC stubs related to geography are listed at [[:Category:Taiwan-related stubs]] instead of [[:Category:China geography stubs]]. Probably people are hestitated to put on <nowiki>{{China-geo-stub}}</nowiki> tag on ROC geography stubs. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 12:31 Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

*By nominating I support '''spliting''' the template. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 20:57, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

*'''strongly, violently, and vociferously oppose''' Many of the geography items in this category deal with ''both'' the Mainland and Taiwan. Many of the people working on expanding these items into full articles are working on items relating to both the Mainland and Taiwan. instantnood, you seem to fail to realise exactly what the purpose of stub templates is - to place small articles which need expansion into categories where they will be most easily accessible to the editors working in these fields. As such, the current schema works well. And if it ain't broke, why try to "fix it" so that it won't work as well? At the very least, shouldn't you run these suggestions past Wikiproject Stub Sorting? [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 23:44, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**There are currently 201 articles in the category of China geography stubs. Two involves both mainland China and the ROC<!--Taiwan Strait

Cathy-->, 14 are related to the ROC only<!--Chiayi

Chungli

Cishan, Kaohsiung

Douliou City

Fongyuan

Fort Zeelandia (Taiwan)

Guanmiao, Tainan

Guantian, Tainan

Jhubei City

Jhuding, Hsinchu

Kenting National Park

Tsoying

Wufong, Taichung

Xiananmen Branch

Yongkang City

Yunlin County-->, and 185 are related to mainland China only. No article is related to Hong Kong or Macao. I don't think readers would recognise [[:Category:China geography stubs]] covers geostubs related to the ROC, until they read the notice on the of the category, or see category's link at an ROC-related article. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:50, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. Designating a large stub-category for deletion just to draw attention to it's need for splitting ( in your opinion ) is pretty close to vandalism, Insta. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 23:55, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)

**Renaming for categories are done at [[Wikipedia:Categories for deletion]]. I didn't know templates, or specifically stub categories, are dealt with different procedures. Thank you for telling. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:52, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. --[[User:Viriditas|Viriditas ]] | [[User_talk:Viriditas|Talk]] 08:59, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. Agree with Grutness. --[[User:Jag123|jag123]] 17:39, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Support split''' into [[Template:ROC-geo-stub|{{ROC-geo-stub}}]] and [[Template:PRC-geo-stub|{{PRC-geo-stub}}]]. Both are shorter, easier to type, and more accurate, folks. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]^{[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]} 20:22, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

**'''Comment''': Hong Kong already has its own geo stubs template and category. It would be better to use "mainland China", a term that excludes Hong Kong and Macao from the rest of the PRC, than "PRC". &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:01, Feb 19 2005 (UTC)

**'''Comment''': Hong Kong only has a separate category because there is a WikiProject:Hong Kong. If there was not, then these stubs would also be part of China-geo-stub. If Instantnood wants to start up his own WikiProject:Taiwan, then a separate stub category would be called for. As it is, he has pointed out several things - that people are using the stub category for Taiwan (as the 16 stubs show), that some of the stubs relate to both China PRC and Taiwan, and that there are too few Taiwan stubs to have a viable separate category. These are three very good reasons to keep the current category as is. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]]

***I suppose you are referring to the fact that Hong Kong is covered by the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries]]. [[Republic of China]] is also covered, but not Taiwan. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 12:15 Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

****No, I'm referring to the projects being run by the people on the [[WP:HKWNB|Hong Kong Wikipedian noticeboard]] (it seems I was wrong in that they haven't set it up as a distinct WikiProject, however). [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 03:50, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

=====A suggested compromise=====

The names of stub templates - in fact the names of templates in general - are only used by Wikipedia editors and aren't displated on the articles. Why not keep the names as they are at present, but ''amend the text'' of the templates? Hey Instantnood? Would that make you happier?Anyone else have any thoughts on this? [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 03:50, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*However most ROC related geostubs are now added the <nowiki>{{Taiwan-stub}} tag and listed at </nowiki>[[:category:Taiwan-related stubs]], instead of <nowiki>{{China-geo-stub}}</nowiki> and [[:category:China geography stubs]]. Although the names of the template are not displayed in the articles, the names of the categories are. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 13:01 Feb 21 2005 (UTC)

**...and changing the text of the template would change the destination category of the stubs, would it not? [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]]

***Theoretically yes. If the template is changed to be linked to a category with another title. However there is a known bug of category linked by a template. Articles with the template stay in the previously linked category until they are edited.<br>Nevertheless, creating a new stub template and category for ROC-related geostubs, and changing the stub category [[:category:China geography stubs|China geography stubs]] to [[:category:Mainland China geography stubs]] can better solve the problem. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 04:57 Feb 23 2005 (UTC)

****Currently the only problem is that you perceive the stub messages as being wrong. I was suggesting a way of keeping stub sorting working as is it is now (i.e., well), yet having a stub message more favourable to you. Seemed a good compromise. Changing and/or splitting stub categories (i.e., no compromise on your part) would create unnecessary stub categories changes and/or unneccessary new stub categories. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 06:07, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

=== February 19 ===

==== [[Template:Phys-stub]] ====

Currently a redirect to [[Template:Physics-stub]], which was created since "phys-stub" was ambiguous (physiology? physics? etc). Since this is redundant, all articles have already been changed to use the new template. --[[User:Jag123|jag123]] 17:36, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''delete'''. Ambiguous and unnecessary. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''<font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 05:00, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

===February 20===

====[[Template:Quebec-bio-stub]]====

There are only a few articles using this, it can use the broader Canada-bio-stub. --[[User:Spinboy|Spinboy]] 06:05, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* Weak '''Delete'''. Quebec is a unique province, but I'm not convinced it requires a separate bio stub. —[[User:Markaci|Mar]]·[[User_talk:Markaci|ka]]·[[Special:Contributions/Markaci|ci]]:<small>2005-02-20 13:39 Z</small>

*'''Delete'''. Not covered in hierarchy of stub-sorting categories. Or rather, is covered - by canada-bio-stub. Unlikely there will ever be the 50+ stubs usually considered necessary to justify a separate category. And general consensus is that nationality should be further split into occupations rather than subnational divisions. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 03:59, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', it's a useful distinction, and the category could easily be populated if more widely used. -- [[User:Curps|Curps]] 05:29, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**Note that, as I said, this is contrary to the current consensus at stub sorting - or should Canada be categorised differently to othe countries? [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 06:01, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Will there be stubs for every province in Canada, every state in the US or Australia, every county in England, etc.? [[User:Grammarian|Grammarian]] 21:39, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Quebec-stub]]====

Can use Canada-related-stub. Stub is unnecessary. --[[User:Spinboy|Spinboy]] 06:10, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*<del>'''Support''' '''Merge''' back to Canada-stub and Canada-geo-stub. While the template has the potential to be a useful addition, there is no concerted effort from Quebec wikipedians (no wikiproject, no bulletin, no collaboration) to support it. [[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 12:45, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)</del> <ins>'''Keep'''</ins> I have just created the [[WP:QWNB|Quebec wikipedians' notice board]] which will certainly be able to make good use of it once the board has been sufficiently publicized. [[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 18:43, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

** They do have [[Wikipedia:Canadian wikipedians' notice board/Quebec]] —[[User:Markaci|Mar]]·[[User_talk:Markaci|ka]]·[[Special:Contributions/Markaci|ci]]:<small>2005-02-20 13:39 Z</small>

** Like many other page, it is merely a list of topics. The CWNB has many of these page with listing by theme and areas. OTOH, we could consider, at the [[WP:WSS|Wikiproject Stub Sorting]], dividing the massive amount of [[:category:Canada geography stubs|Canada ___location stubs]] into provinces, like it is being considered for US states [[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 02:57, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

***This is being considered ''only'' in those states where there are separate WikiProjects (of which there are three). Currently there are several thousand US-stubs - there are 300 canada-stubs. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 04:05, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

****Actually, I was refering to Canada-geo-stub. [[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 15:52, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

*****In which case, you should be talking about the nonexistent Quebec-geo-stub.

*'''Comment''' Do other Canadian provinces and territories have stub and biostub template? &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 12:55 Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

**None that I have seen. --[[User:Spinboy|Spinboy]] 17:16, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Unlike Quebec-bio-stub, I think this template is/will be useful. —[[User:Markaci|Mar]]·[[User_talk:Markaci|ka]]·[[Special:Contributions/Markaci|ci]]:<small>2005-02-20 13:39 Z</small>

*'''Delete''' No call for separate category - Canada-stub is not hugely populated (about 300 items), and almost all of them relate to the country as a whole. Doubt this would reach the usual criteria either (see previous item on list). And no, Instantnood, other Provinces do not have their own stubs. Up until now, it hasn't been necessary to have them (and it isn't now, either). [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 04:05, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', it's a useful distinction, and the category could easily be populated if more widely used. -- [[User:Curps|Curps]] 05:37, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' It is only logical to have stubs for a given national culture, like Quebec's. Quebec matters experts are not necessarily Canada experts and vice-versa. A Quebec stub under the Canada-stub system is diluted and lost in a foreign subject pool. Again, I hope I do not have to remind people of the offensive nature of comparing Quebec with regional provinces or having it brought down under another national flag. --[[User:Liberlogos|Liberlogos]] 18:48, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**so you'll also be wanting Basque-stub, Catalan-stub, Breton-stub, Corsica-stub, Kashmir-stub, Chechnya-stub, Somaliland-stub, Hawaii-stub, Newfoundland-stub, Padania-stub, Val d'Aoste-stub, Cornwall-stub, Occitan-stub, Nagorno-Karabakh-stub, and Karelia-stub, I take it? As for quebec experts, as Circeus pointed out, there is no wikiproject or similar. If there were one, it might make sense to keep this category. There isn't. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 04:09, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**Quebec isn't a nation. --[[User:Spinboy|Spinboy]] 05:37, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. As I stated higher, will there be stubs for every province in Canada, every state in the US or Australia, every county in England, etc.? [[User:Grammarian|Grammarian]] 21:41, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Liberal party]]====

This reminds me of Wikiproject Alternative medicine spam. Those boxes spanning every single article deemed to be related to alternative medicine was deleted. Link to categories suffices.--[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 10:54, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''I do not agree and I think this discussion we had earlier on Wikipedia. It helps to place an article in a more overall context. Category is not enough, since it links also to other related articles. --[[User:Wilfried Derksen|Gangulf]] 10:59, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''tentative keep''', though possibly reworded; the top is awkward. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 12:11, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

::Do you have a suggestion? [[User:Wilfried Derksen|Gangulf]] 21:03, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 12:49 Feb 20 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:not child safe]]====

Falsely implies that Wikipedia's content can be assumed to be child safe. Every page on Wikipedia contains a link to the content disclaimer, the relevant part of which is also summarised in [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia_is_not_censored_for_the_protection_of_minors]]. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 12:09, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:'''delete''', hopelessly POV. Got it in right as I was about to. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 12:11, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:'''Delete'''. &#8212;[[User:Markaci|Mar]]·[[User_talk:Markaci|ka]]·[[Special:Contributions/Markaci|ci]]:<small>2005-02-20 12:30 Z</small>

:Delete. --[[User:ContiE|Conti]]|[[User talk:ContiE|&#9993;]] 14:28, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. See content filtering proposals on mailing list and meta. -- [[User:Karada|Karada]] 14:29, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What is then <nowiki>{{Template:morbid warning}}</nowiki>? Just a content warning, on top of the page, not as [[User_talk:The_Anome#Template_not_child-safe]] suggested on the bottom. By the way, POV stands for (non-neutral) point of view. However the template was perfectly NPOV: the pages were not child-safe. --[[User:J heisenberg|J heisenberg]] 12:39, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:"Child safe" '''is''' POV itself. Who says that descriptions of sexual activity or violence aren't child safe? --[[User:Dave2|Dave2]] 15:26, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

::Stating that descriptions of ''every'' sexual act is suitable for a child of ''any'' age is very POV. --[[User:J heisenberg|J heisenberg]] 15:50, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:::I'm not stating this though - not having any notice for "is not suitable for minors" is '''not''' the same as saying that "''every'' sexual act is suitable for a child of ''any'' age". Different people have different views. I guarantee that just about anywhere that this template would be used there would be a dispute over its NPOVness. It's better just to avoid the whole mess and not have a template, IMO. --[[User:Dave2|Dave2]] 17:07, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

::::That doesn't avoid the mess, but takes up the most lax proposition: Everything visible to all. Certainly, some cases will be disputed, but on the whole, a consensus can be reached what is "adult" material and what isn't. Want to argue that [[Prince_Albert_piercing|this]] is child-safe/work safe? --[[User:J heisenberg|J heisenberg]] 17:24, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:::::I don't want to argue whether it is child/work safe or not. Different cultures have different views. I'm sure in some cultures, there would be no problem with showing that to kids. Hell, I don't particularly see any problem. It's not even a sexual act, it's merely a piece of someone's body. What, exactly, is wrong with a penis? However other people would think that it's not safe for kids (this group appears to include you). Likewise with work safe - one of my cousins worked in a place where goatse was work-safe - but to a lesser extent, as most workplaces have similar rules. Neither group is right or wrong, it's just different ''points of view''. Hence why this template is, by its very existence, POV. --[[User:Dave2|Dave2]] 18:12, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

::::::Curiously, neither [[CNN]] nor [[FOX News]] nor [[Guardian]] nor [[Der Spiegel]] would publish this on their web-site, even in an article on erotic piercing. I can't even think of a major news/info site that would.--[[User:J heisenberg|J heisenberg]] 18:53, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:::::::Which is beside the point. They are expected to censor themselves in this way. Wikipedia isn't. However the reason why these are censored is because the general viewpoint of the places that these organisations are based is that it should not be shown. Hence it still comes down to viewpoint. Note, however, that I imagine that [[Channel 4]], for example, would not have any qualms about putting an image like that up on a show about erotic piercings. I don't see either one of us convincing the other to change their mind, however, so we'll have to agree to disagree. --[[User:Dave2|Dave2]] 19:14, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

::::::::I agree to disagree. Just shows that here is one point where WP has very significant bias. Way more than in politics--[[User:J heisenberg|J heisenberg]] 19:21, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. POV. The [[Wikipedia:Content_disclaimer|content disclaimer]] already covers this, as well. --[[User:Dave2|Dave2]] 15:26, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Davenbelle|Davenbelle]] 15:32, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', more POV then previous templates. {{User:Oven Fresh/sig}} 16:45, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' this POV crap. [[User:Vacuum|{{User:Vacuum/sig}}]] 17:14, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', pointless at best, and more accurately highly misleading. [[User:Jdforrester|James F.]] [[User_talk:Jdforrester|(talk)]] 17:35, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*Delete. This deserves to leave skid marks on the bowl. [[User:Raul654|&rarr;Raul654]] 17:34, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', individual and cultural POV.--[[User:OldakQuill|Oldak]] [[User_talk:OldakQuill|Quill]] 18:26, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*Not that we need another delete vote, but '''delete'''. POV. -[[User:Sethmahoney|Seth Mahoney]] 19:09, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. POV. Based on societal perceptions of what's proper for children. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Flamurai|flamurai]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Flamurai|t]]) 05:23, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:morbid warning]]====

No content censorship; ''information needed for downstream content selection should be possible to obtain from category information, not templates.'' --[[User:J heisenberg|J heisenberg]] 12:49, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Keep'''. See [[Talk:Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse]]. &#8212;[[User:Markaci|Mar]]·[[User_talk:Markaci|ka]]·[[Special:Contributions/Markaci|ci]]:<small>2005-02-20 13:39 Z</small>

:Note that I'm not against a link to the no-pic page, just against a special template. --[[User:J heisenberg|J heisenberg]] 13:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

::Why is a template such a bad thing? The template simplifies the process if future articles to do the same. And by the way, [[Oral sex]] isn't one of those articles. &#8212;[[User:Markaci|Mar]]·[[User_talk:Markaci|ka]]·[[Special:Contributions/Markaci|ci]]:<small>2005-02-20 14:15 Z</small>

:::Putting a big blue (green?) template indicates that pictures on this page are somehow crazily offending. Someone from other cultures might find them something normal, while finding pics in [[Oral sex]] offending. Everything above a one-liner is POV (IMO). I'll try to edit the Template to make it one line. A title change would be good too, since "morbid" is weaselly. Maybe "offensive content"? --[[User:J heisenberg|J heisenberg]] 14:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete'''. Agree with J Heisenberg; also, this template encourages article forking, which is a ''bad thing''. Please see the proposals for content filtering / image linking on meta, which aim to address all of these problems. -- [[User:Karada|Karada]] 14:27, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**Actually, it prevents article forking. Try editing the no picures version: it's derived from the top of the article page. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] [[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|<font color="purple">Luke</font>]] 14:34, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Template is nice for the no pictures page, although it could work without it (we could have a bar that says something like what's at the top of my user page, for example). Feel free to replace "potentially morbid" with something you find less weasily. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] [[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|<font color="purple">Luke</font>]] 14:34, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Reluctant keep''' for now. A page that requires this template has survived VfD. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 14:51, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete''' post haste. This is nonsense. [[User:Raul654|&rarr;Raul654]] 15:16, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Sorry, but most users aren't going to receive a favorable impression of Wikipedia if they are surprised with a severed head. [[User:Vacuum|{{User:Vacuum/sig}}]] 17:19, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. {{User:Oven Fresh/sig}} 17:35, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Keep''' - this discussion has already occurred once, and it was decided that this is OK (used very sparingly). {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 18:24, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - utter POV rubbish. --[[User:OldakQuill|Oldak]] [[User_talk:OldakQuill|Quill]] 18:42, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. POV. -[[User:Sethmahoney|Seth Mahoney]] 20:14, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' this attempt at POV nannyism, before I get tempted to add it to [[George W. Bush]]. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|^{[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]} [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 04:27, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' &mdash; wrong, wrong, wrong; per all above deletes; &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Davenbelle|Davenbelle]] 04:54, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''--[[User:Irate|Jirate]] 04:59, 2005 Feb 21 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. "Morbid" and "offensive" are POV terms. Specific pages should use specific, objective wording: i.e., for the Abu Ghraib page, "This page displays uncensored photographs of people being tortured, nude people, and a human corpse. For a version without these photographs, see ..." &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Flamurai|flamurai]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Flamurai|t]]) 05:04, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

** '''Comment''': I agree that this "no pictures" process is inherently POV, however, I believe it's needed in certain circumstances. Perhaps we could create some sort of guideline as to when this procedure is necessary. For example, take a poll, and if ''x'' percent of those polled believe a "no pictures" version is needed, then it should be used. You're ignoring the fact that it's also POV to think that everyone expects Wikipedia to contain photographs like this. They should not be censored, but people should be warned in extreme situations and given the option to view a version without images. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Flamurai|flamurai]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Flamurai|t]]) 05:22, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Wi]]====

* I don't get the point in this: (1) All the information it displays is already in [[MediaWiki:Noarticletext]]; (2) Everything you ever want to put in here you better put in either [[MediaWiki:Noarticletext]] or the text that appears when you edit a non-existent page (forgot the MediaWiki name); (3) Keeping articles around with only "<nowiki>{{wi}}</nowiki>" in them bloats the DB unnecessarily; (4) Makes links appear blue when an article doesn't actually exist. &mdash; Summary: Useless, redundant, should be deleted. &mdash; [[User:Timwi|Timwi]] 12:55, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*:(1) and (2) are wrong. Noarticletext appears for all articles, whether a relevant page exists on Wiktionary or not. <nowiki>{{wi}}</nowiki> is used when we ''know'' wiktionary is appropriate. Re (3) ... this really isn't an issue in the grand scheme of things... we only use this templates when a vfd vote has shown we want to move to wiktionary... re (4) there has been some discussion about whether a different colour could be used but it was not considered an important enough thing to change the db scheme for.

* '''Keep'''. See [[Wikipedia:Soft redirect]]. —[[User:Markaci|Mar]]·[[User_talk:Markaci|ka]]·[[Special:Contributions/Markaci|ci]]:<small>2005-02-20 13:39 Z</small>

* Keep, nominator underestimates usefulness. [[User:Pcb21|Pcb21|]] [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 15:11, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete'''. {{User:Oven Fresh/sig}} 17:35, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Scrap''' this trash. [[User:Vacuum|{{User:Vacuum/sig}}]] 16:40, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

** Are people so rude to you about your contributions? Please explain why you think this is "trash", particularly as Markaci and myself have give clear indications why it is actually useful? [[User:Pcb21|Pcb21|]] [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 19:35, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

==== [[Template:Translate]] ====

[http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://de.wikipedia.org&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools Links to Google translations] didn't used to work, due to [[MediaZilla:361|bug 361]]. This has now been fixed, making [[Template:Translate]] no longer necessary. No article is currently using the template. [[User:Angela|Angela]][[user talk:Angela|.]] 15:55, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

==== [[Template:Troll]] ====

Insta-personal attack generator. View history. {{User:Oven Fresh/sig}} 16:32, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete''' -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 19:34, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

* '''Delete''' -- umm, definitely POV with respect to all potential content [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 19:49, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

=== February 21 ===

==== [[Template:Findincommons]] ====

Redundant now that all Commons images have a text caption with a link to the original version (see, for example, [[:Image:LakeOkutamaAerPhTyoJp76-01.jpg]]). -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 19:21, 2005 Feb 21 (UTC)

*

*

*

==== [[Template:Sisterproject]] ====

Relisting. This is a "meta-template" created to be used on the [[Wikipedia:Sister projects|Sister projects]] linking templates. Since it was first listed here, though, a page describing the [[Wikipedia:Meta-templates considered harmful|negative side-effects of using meta-templates]] has been developed, with input from our primary database admin, [[User:Jamesday]]. The only use of this lately has been by its [[Special:Contributions/Itai|creator]], where he's been continuing to edit war by re-inserting it into the templates, in spite of the negative side-effects, such as caching problems and database load. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 19:21, 2005 Feb 21 (UTC)

* '''Keep'''. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]^{[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]} 00:41, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

* '''Keep'''. The server load caused by editing this is no worse than that caused by editing every template that uses this style. [[User:Goplat|Goplat]] 03:43, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

** [[User:Jamesday]], our primary database admin, disagrees, and frankly should know better than anyone else. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 04:50, 2005 Feb 23 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Using meta-templates is the simplest method of ensuring a consistent format across a group of similar templates, and using the "subst:" feature when creating the "daughter" templates gets rid of the problems mentioned at the [[Wikipedia:Policy thinktank|Wikipedia thinktank]] article [[Wikipedia:Meta-templates considered harmful|WP:Meta-templates are considered harmful by Netoholic]]. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''<font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 04:29, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

** In that case, then I'd point out that the "daughter" templates have already been converted, and this template can now be deleted. It need not remain just to provide future "subst:" functionality, since it is far better to just copy an existing one or document the basic format on the project page. It seems obscure to keep a template just to perform subst:. In fact, on some templates, subst: will fail to generate properly when there are extra parameters (sometimes, it just breaks), meaning you have to rework it anyway. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 04:44, 2005 Feb 23 (UTC)

===February 23===

====[[Template:reproductive system]]====

*'''Delete'''. Redundant, all articles already in category. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]^{[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]} 00:41, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. I think that this template is a good example of how a navigational template can work better than a See also section, or using Categories. It covers a reasonable number of closely related articles without being too large, and it nicely divides the articles into those for the female and male reproductive systems. I also think that a navigational template is appropriate for this particular topic since many of the people who are looking up information on one part of the reproductive system will then want to move on to look at information on another part of the reproductive system. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''<font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 04:56, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

* Keep. This is actually a good example of how to use these templates. [[User:Raul654|&rarr;Raul654]] 21:22, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Infobox European regions]]====

This template is based on the premise that phrases such as "[[Western Europe]]" and "[[Southern Europe]]" have precise meanings that statistics can be compiled for. Despite repeated requests, the creator of this template has failed to justify this premise. [[User:Susvolans|Susvolans]] [[User talk:Susvolans|(pigs can fly)]] 12:54, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Sectstub]]====

No no no! We do not need to marking individual sections as stubs. Articles are stubs, not sections. Dump this nonsense. [[User:Raul654|&rarr;Raul654]] 15:24, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

* It is a bit of a misnomer, but I think we do need a template to mark sections for expansion (but [[Wikipedia:Template messages/Stubs/General|only one]]). '''Move/Merge''' to [[Template:Expandsect]]. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 15:36, 2005 Feb 23 (UTC)

*'''Comments:''' Actually there are currently four templates for inadequate article sections since [[Template:Stubsection]] redirects to [[Template:Expandsect]], and there is also [[Template:Sect-stub]] (which requires a section #). There should be only one, but both Template:Sectstub and Template:Expandsect leave much to be desired. Template:Expandsect, for example, links to [[Wikipedia:Requests for expansion]], although none of the articles that I looked at that used the template were listed on that page (and it is probably inappropriate to list just sections there anyway). That template is also way too wordy so it is usually larger than the rest of the text in the section it is put into. On the other hand, I think that the graphic included with Template:Sectstub calls too much attention to the notice to itself and should be further shrunk or removed from the template. In my opinion, there should probably a new template (Template:Expandsection ? &mdash; an easier to remember name), with wording something like: "note: this article section should be expanded. You can help Wikipedia by editing it.". Also, this notice should ''always'' be put at the bottom of the section instead of at the top where most of the current ones are located. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''<font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 21:07, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

** I think your suggestions are good, and you should feel free to adjust [[Template:Expandsect]] (in other words, creating a fifth template "expandsection" seems unnecessary). -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 03:18, 2005 Feb 24 (UTC)

==Holding Cell==

These templates need to be deleted, but may still be in use on some pages. Somebody (admin or otherwise) should remove them from pages so that they can be deleted. If you've cleared a page, note it here.

*[[Template:Sejm Marshals]]

** Is this really to be deleted? It has no {TfD] tag, and a large number of pages link to it. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 20:01, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

*** There certainly wasn't a consensus to delete, so whoever moved it to the holding cell needs a spanking. I've put the discussion on the template talk page. (The '''Divide''' has been done already) &mdash; [[User:MikeX|MikeX]] [[User Talk:MikeX|(talk)]] 20:51, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

*[[Template:1930s U.S. military aircraft by type]]

:Still used on a few pages. Needs to replaced with [[Template:military aircraft by decade2]].

===Need depopulation before removal===

*[[Template:1]], [[Template:2]], [[Template:3]], [[Template:4]], [[Template:5]], [[Template:6]] - These are no longer necessary in MediaWiki 1.4, since it doesn't interpret the <nowiki>{{1}}</nowiki> inside {{{1}}} as a template. [[User:Goplat|Goplat]] 07:04, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

** '''Delete all''' -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 16:02, 2005 Jan 24 (UTC)

** '''Delete all''' -- [[User:Patrick|Patrick]] 10:24, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

** '''Delete all''' --[[User:Evice|Evice]] 00:11, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

*** I went to delete these, and a zillion things use them (well, I only checked 1, 2, and 6, but even 6 has a good number, so I'm sure the rest must too). So, waiting for them to be depopulated. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 17:43, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

**** Those are false-positives. Those pages/templates haven't been edited since the MediaWiki upgrade, so there is a leftover "link" to these templates. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 18:47, 2005 Feb 2 (UTC)

**** Ah, got it. I wonder if doing a cache flush (with "&action=purge") will update the links table. I wonder if any pages use these templates for other reasons, or are we sure that all the link entries are these false-positives? [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 16:54, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

***** No, you have to do a "null-edit" to each article (open it, then save without making changes) to refresh the links. I used to have a bot that could do that... :) -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 17:45, 2005 Feb 3 (UTC)

***** Right, that bug (and all the related ones - categories have a similar set) is really a PITA. The right fix is that extra links table, though, so until someone tackles adding that we'll have to live with the consequences. I did look idly through part of the lists of linked articles (ignoring templates), and all the handful I found using any of these templates were the results of errors, so I'd ''guess'' it is safe to go ahead and delete them. Certainly, anything that is using them for real will blow up, because the TfD notice will screw up the syntax. So, I'd say, let's just be lazy and take the easiest way of all out - just wait a while and see if anyone reports any errors, and if not, zap. There's no urgency to get rid of them, I don't think. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 20:11, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

== Current discussions ==

===Ready to remove entirely===

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j }}}}

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -1 days }}}}

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -2 days }}}}

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -3 days }}}}

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -4 days }}}}

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -5 days }}}}

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -6 days }}}}

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -7 days }}}}

== Old discussions ==

*[[Template:CompactTOC (external links)]]

{{#invoke:XfD old|transclude}}

** Clear [[User:BlankVerse|BlankVerse]] 09:46, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

** Has block-compressed versions in history, delete on hold. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 16:14, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

***There's a [[Template:Pending deletion]] for these. -[[User:Aranel|Aranel]] ("<font color="#ba0000"><u>Sarah</u></font>") 17:38, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

*[[Template:CompactTOC (see also)]]

** Also clear, but also on delete hold. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 16:14, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

*[[Template:CompactTOCallplustwo2]]

** Ditto. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 16:14, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

*[[Template:Aboutwikipedia]]

** This can't be deleted at present due to a software flaw. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 01:52, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

** Same block-compressed issue as the ones above. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 02:39, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*[[Template:Bookshelf]]- block-compressed revisions. I have rmv'd all linking pages and logged it (preemptively). -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 23:35, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*[[Template:Cowstub]], block-compressed da da da. I've subst'd it on to (all?) of the pages it was on, because IIRC it wasn't ever used seriously. It's on a bunch of BJAODN pages, and I think it does belong there, and should be preserved. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 19:35, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

== Completed discussions ==

===Convert to category===

A list of completed discussions that still require action taken on the template(s) — for example, a merge between two infoboxes — can be found at [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Holding cell|the "Holding Cell"]].

For an index of all old and archived discussions, see [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/Archives]].

[[Category:Non-talk pages with subpages that are automatically signed]]

<!-- Don't edit below this line, except to add categories and interwiki links. -->

[[Category:Wikipedia:Deletion deletion|Templates for deletiondiscussion]]

[[Category:Wikipedia template administration|Templates for discussion]]

[[Category:Wikipedia discussion]]