Talk:Monty Python sketches: Difference between revisions

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{{WikiProject Televisionbanner shell|monty-python=yes|class=list|importance=mid}}

{{WikiProject Television|monty-python=yes|importance=mid}}

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==Merge==

{{archive top|1=No consensus to merge. Not done. <code><span style="font-family: consolas;font-weight: bold">[[User:Deadbeef|<span style="color:#090;">Dea</span>]][[User Talk:Deadbeef|<span style="color:#000">db</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Deadbeef|<span style="color:#090">eef</span>]]</span></code> 03:11, 11 February 2015 (UTC)}}

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:::::*You act like there aren't general guidelines and ways to detail fictional topics, all of which have been discussed by users. Look at any good or featured article related to fiction, and you'll see what people want articles to become at their full potential. There are hundreds of thousands of articles that do not meet that standard, but that does not mean it should be ignored because of the "work" that has gone into them. These pages are bad, and even if some do have the potential to be kept, the end result will be something completely different. It will be a concise summary instead of unruly paragraphs, general cultural impact instead of a trivial list of every minor reference ever uttered, and pertinent information instead of a cheese list. Wikia is home to those kinds of details where fans may do as they please and be as detailed as the like. This is, while informal, still an encyclopedia focused on detailing actual information rather than fancruft. [[User:TTN|TTN]] ([[User talk:TTN|talk]]) 19:55, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

:::::* There's a different between text and content. We write text for general audience, but our content is limited as defined by [[WP:NOT]]. How long the information has been around has no bearing. How many hits the page receives has no bearing. (Granted, the Spanish Inquisition sketch is one that likely would be retained as a standalone article. Further we are talking merges, not deletion, meaning the contribution history remains intact). We are an academic work, an encyclopedia, and thus we are tasked to write better than just what the layreaders would expect to see, to serve that purpose better. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-size:x-small;">ASEM</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 19:59, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

*'''Query''' - can anyone explain what the purpose of this list is? What I mean is, it would seem to replicate [[:Category:Monty Python sketches]] and duplicate the navigational work of {{tl|Monty Python}}. But it only includes 4 entries as "notable and recurring sketches" though dozens of notable (enough to have their own articles) sketches are listed in the template and there are 43 in the category. Is it the "recurring" bit? And why merge those four in particular and not any of the other 39? [[User: Stalwart111|'''Stalwart''']][[User talk:Stalwart111|'''<fontspan colorstyle="color:green;">111</fontspan>''']] 06:41, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

:*I created it as a basic merge target rather than clog up the main page, and I started with four because I didn't feel like taking the time to tag all of them in the case that this would fail miserably from a bunch of people voting with nostalgia glasses instead of editorial standards. I'll probably have it speedy deleted if nothing comes of this. [[User:TTN|TTN]] ([[User talk:TTN|talk]]) 06:46, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

::*Oh, I understand. Must have missed that explanation somewhere, but it makes sense to me. I'm not sure that merging would be a great idea, simply from the perspective that it might create a massive and unwieldy article, even with only short summaries of 43 sketches (many of which would need at least a couple of paragraphs, even when summarised). But I get where you're coming from and good on you for doing it this way rather than just unilaterally merging/redirecting. And thanks for the very quick reply! [[User: Stalwart111|'''Stalwart''']][[User talk:Stalwart111|'''<fontspan colorstyle="color:green;">111</fontspan>''']] 06:58, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

:::*I don't think all of them will actually need to be placed into a list. Some of them "establish" notability with a few basic sources, while a number of others simply exist for the sake of existing. Summarizing the basics of the sketch rather than summarizing the exact "plot" of the sketch, and then focusing on their real world influence would likely save some space as well. [[User:TTN|TTN]] ([[User talk:TTN|talk]]) 07:21, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

::::*Of course, yeah, some. But even if we're (very) generous and assume that ''half'' would go in that scenario, summarising 22 articles to create a massive article with 22 level-2 sub-headings would still be a huge undertaking. That's probably still too big an article for me. I'd say the best bet would be to nominate those that ''might'' not be notable for deletion and see what you're left with. [[User: Stalwart111|'''Stalwart''']][[User talk:Stalwart111|'''<fontspan colorstyle="color:green;">111</fontspan>''']] 08:41, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

:::::*I was thinking about it, but then I looked at some of the past AfDs. There are a few that would probably be deleted without much trouble, but the majority are likely to be more affected by personal feelings than anything else. It would just be a bunch of no consensus closings with advice to start a merge discussion, so I've just decided to skip to that step. I'd hope that doing a few at a time would allow for more focused discussion and keep the article from instantly bloating up. I'll probably have to ask on a few project pages to actually get any opinions at this point. [[User:TTN|TTN]] ([[User talk:TTN|talk]]) 09:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

::::::*The problem is that a merge discussion then becomes a giant AFD for all of the articles in question, or at least the 4 you've listed. At least one of those would likely never be merged (let alone deleted) based on sources. It certainly wouldn't need to rely on ILIKEIT votes. [[User: Stalwart111|'''Stalwart''']][[User talk:Stalwart111|'''<fontspan colorstyle="color:green;">111</fontspan>''']] 09:43, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

:::::::*Merges are not deletions (otherwise TTN would have just gone to AFD in the first place). The sketch names are all searchable terms so their current page contents would be replaced with redirects to here, so all past contributions are still there, hence why its not deletion. And should a sketch gain sufficient notability in the future for a standalone article, the redirect can be undone without loss of the previous information. Also, articles with 22 subheadings happens often, but there's other ways to organize the information to avoid heading overload (such as by having the h2 headings be by season, h3 the sketch names) --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-size:x-small;">ASEM</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 13:24, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

::::::::*Of course, yeah. I just mean their future is being discussed as it would at an AFD but without the benefit of individual discussions. It's only going to take one that shouldn't be merged (like Spanish Inquisition, which has been included) for the discussion to be derailed. But obviously the outcomes are different and TTN hasn't proposed deletion. [[User: Stalwart111|'''Stalwart''']][[User talk:Stalwart111|'''<fontspan colorstyle="color:green;">111</fontspan>''']] 13:55, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

:'''Support''' Many of these sketch pages are just summarizing the sketch and noting the pop culture referencing back to them, and give no other details that would meet the GNG, but they are things that we should document. Strip away unsourced pop culture references back to the sketch and the other parts related to having a full page, and one can easily have two-three paragraphs on most of these skits to be listed out here. The few that are notable on their own (Spanish Inquisition, Dead Parrot) can be listed but with see-also/main links to these specific articles. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-size:x-small;">ASEM</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 13:24, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

:'''Comment''' I don't mind evaluating each sketch on a case by case basis, but there's quite a few such as [[Spam Sketch]] (responsible for the generic internet term), [[Dead Parrot]] (used by [[Margaret Thatcher]] in political debate) and [[Argument Sketch]] (cited as an example of English language or debating style in a surprising number of academic texts) that have transcended their initial use in Python, that I'd be hesitant about assuming they were all trivial matters. [[User:Ritchie333|<fontspan colorstyle="color:#7F007F;">'''Ritchie333'''</fontspan>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<fontsup colorstyle="color:#7F007F;">^(talk)</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<fontsup colorstyle="color:#7F007F;">^(cont)</font>]] 09:38, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

'''I oppose''' this move with [[cushions|fear]], [[:wikt:boo|surprise]] and [[Red#The_red_uniform|ruthless efficiency]]. Its gave a significant contribution to British culture that we didn't expect. [[User:Gregkaye|Gregkaye]] [[Usertalk:Gregkaye|<span style="color:Black"><big>✍</big>♪</span>]] 14:45, 4 September 2014 (UTC)