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{{ArticleHistory
|action1=FAC
|action1date=20:35, 13 Feb 2005
|action1link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bishonen/Antique toilet paper holder
|action1result=not promoted
|action1oldid=10255603
|currentstatus=FFAC
}}
{{todo}}
OK, so, the '''baroque''' toilet paper holder, well... The original stub about Palladio and Blenheim Palace has experienced rapid growth, and the timeline of this article now stretches from ancient Egypt to the turn of the 20th century. More images needed, btw, share 'em if you've got 'em! A few more trips to the library, and I fully expect to include the silver toilet paper holders of the Aztecs, and also the technological improvements of the 20th century, perhaps with a separate section on digital paper holders. What do you think, fellow editors, as attached as we all are to the old name, isn't it time for a page move? Please share your ideas here. How about [[Art toilet paper holders through the ages]]? --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 22:45, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
==Bogus article? Note: Thomas Crapper no joke!==
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:I think you may be right that one of the last edits contained sneaky vandalism. I was hoping to keep this article on the level of art and culture, but there are always people who will think objets d'art are funny just becuse they're to do with personal hygiene. However, contrary to what people tend to assume, '''Thomas Crapper (1836-1910), the sanitary pioneer, is no joke! Try Google, you'll see. I have a book about Crapper right here on my desk, that I was just about to add to References: Reyburn, W. (1969). ''Flushed with Pride: The Story of Thomas Crapper''. London. See Library of Congress! See Amazon.com!''' [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 23:10, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
::Regarding anonymous edits in "Victorian era": I too was a little suspicious and have attempted to check the claims out.: Neville William's book "Royal Homes" (1971) London, Lutterworth Press {{ISBN
::Gladstone and Disraeli wrote extensively in journals and letters, it would be surprising if they never touched on sanitary conditions, bearing in mind these would have been a comparative marvel at the time in these modern palaces, but did they talk about bathroom fitments generally, or specifically to the toilet paper holder? - I can't find out.
::Even today few British stately homes open to the public display the lavatories, one that does in [[Waddesden Manor]] and surprisingly another is [[Osborne House]]. Here Prince Albert's bathroom is displayed. I have checked [[English Heritage]]'s " Osborne House" {{ISBN
::I think unless the editor concerned returns with references within 24 hours this section should be removed until it is verified. There is no evidence that Emmiline Pankhurst was involved with sanatory improvements, although it should be remembered that she was a great social reformer before and during her suffrage campaign. My private view is that this was added by a well intentioned editor, and is partially correct.
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::Oh, sure, I do see the significance of the hygiene-purity connection, most certainly. (Though, again, my still unrealized favorite project of a "Ye Olde bidet" page might be an even better place for it—even greater "purity", you know?) The Holy Grail a tph...? Fascinating. Admittedly they come in many surprising shapes, but... well, I thought the HG was basically a '''bowl'''. Like, a possible potty rather than a tph? We mustn't shirk indelicate questions like, what exactly would it '''hold''', as a tph? Balled-up bits of patterned parchment... ? It just seems too luxurious a material to be treated so cavalierly. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 15:32, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
:::I imagine it holding some of the lost books of the New Testament. Hence the fact that they are lost... [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] 15:37, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)
::::There are times Bishonen when I suspect you have no appreciation of the finer things in life, that priceless object d'art is a family heirloom, it is the first ever photograph of such an item, the only one even slightly similar is in the [[Vatican City|Vatican]], but if you don't want it on the page that's fine, generations of the [[Chiaramonte]] have reached for that object in their hour of need, anyway no matter if its not good enough for you OK! [[User:Giano|Giano]] 19:14, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
:::::No, no, I realize there's not a lot of genuine brass-plated tin around any more, keep it, keep it, if you value it. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 19:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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Other editors' input is requested on whether Ta bu shi da yu's new caption for Rodin's "The Thinker" is indeed better than the original one. My own view is that the original caption goes with the trivia item in the text (and is needed as a translation of the lovely French phrase there), and the new one doesn't. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 14:01, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
:Maybe we could integrate the two. Of much greater concern is the lapse in Poundian scholarship evident in the trivia section. Fancy not giving the actual canto number. Well, really! [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] 16:20, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
::This is all becoming rather distasteful, it is a well known fact the one cannot sit on a [[bog]], as a bog is something that [[Irish
==Nihilartikel==
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:I feel this is part of a growing trend among administrators to simply ignore any attempt at good-faith dispute resolution, and liberally reinterpret policy instead to facilitate the kind of unilateral action ''they'' consider to best protect Wikipedia's interests. Please [[Wikipedia:assume good faith|assume good faith]] and use your status as an administrator to enable and encourage goal-oriented discussion among contributors instead. This will benefit us all much more than indiscriminate blocks and bans.
:Bishonen, I infer from your reply that you take personal offense at Filiocht's comments. Would you please elaborate the specific objections you have? Comments like "admin schmadmin" border on [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|personal attacks]] and are not a productive means of resolving disputes. [[User:JRM|JRM]] 15:34, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)
::Nya na na na na! [[User:JRM|User:Germ]], [[User:JRM|User:Schmerm]]! --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 18:24, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:::Although I know that I am right and you are all wrong, I feel impelled to draw it to the intention of the elitist administrators that I am being attacked simply because my name starts with "T". Why you cannot simply admit your T-phobia instead of attacking the serious work that I am trying to do here is not clear to me. I expect that it is ineveitable since every other editor is a left-wing poltically-correct maniac. Yes, <u>User:Squaorgle</u>, that includes you! --[[User:TheoClarke|Theo ]] [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 15:48, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::::If you had read all my contribution history (84,521 edits including 7 in the mainspace), you would know that some of my best friends have names beginning with "T". --<u>Squaorgle</u> [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 15:50, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:::::See poll at [[User talk:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder/Anti 'T' bias poll]]. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Talk]] 07:20, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
==<small style="color: #ff0000">Notice—Jimbo on April Fool's hilarity—read all about it</small>==
*The discussion on WikiEN can be found here: [http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-March/thread.html]
*The first of several threads starts with this message: [http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-March/021748.html]
----
Realising from a comment [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Tomorrow%27s_featured_article#1_April here] that the possible presence of ETPH on the Main page for April 1 was currently '''the''' topic on the wikiEN mailing list, I joined the list, read up the archives where mav and Raul were asking Jimbo to weigh in, and, guess what, immediately got a post from Jimbo. He writes thusly:
''"I'm torn. I think it's really fun, but we're also a very serious project. So I gave it some thought and I have this idea... Just for fun, why don't we have a game on Friday to create an alternative main page, linked from the main page? 'Click here to see our April Fool's Page.' And on that page, we have fun with ourselves... nothing mean spirited against each other, but gently having some fun with our quirks. So yes, the feature article can be the european toilet paper page. But we also could have an article about Gdansk."''
To my way of thinking, "Click here to see our April Fool's Page" has to be the lamest April 1 "joke" ever, and in my impulsive way I have written to the mailing list to say so. I also asked pointedly if I get any say in whether or not ETPH is moved out of my userspace for April 1. Personally I would rather not it was used for such a poor jape, and I suppose that if anybody's going to protest, it had probably better be me, because of the space thing. But I want to emphasize that I don't feel I have any more moral authority over the page than other contributors. Well, '''maybe''' with the exception of Giano's mother-in-law. And I haven't protested as yet, I've only asked if a protest would be heeded (to which the answer will probably be a resounding "You're kidding"). So, people, what do you think? Even the lame version would be limelight and attention, which I know some of you poor saps... oh, never mind, forgot what I was gonna say. Anyway, please post your thoughts on the matter here, and we will surely be able to reach consensus as usual. (Filiocht, about that admin—schmadmin crack, you're over that now, aren't you?). --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 23:30, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:I'm not a contributor to this work of art, although I rub it up now and then by fixing some typos. <s>Could you give a link to this mailing list conversation?</s> Meanwhile, I fully concur with your comment; the 'click here to see what we would like to fool you with'-thing is really sad. [[User:Mark Dingemanse|<nowiki> </nowiki>]]— [[User:Mark Dingemanse|mark]] [[User Talk:Mark Dingemanse|✎]] 23:48, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
::Link: [http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-March/021845.html April Fool's Day] mailing list discussion. [[User:Mark Dingemanse|<nowiki> </nowiki>]]— [[User:Mark Dingemanse|mark]] [[User Talk:Mark Dingemanse|✎]] 00:00, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
*Jimbo's 'plan' is a joke in itself. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Talk]] 07:24, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
As we have by now established, Wikipedia doesn't celebrate April Fool's. Nice try, people. Now, let me think of a good prank to pull on [[User:Raul654|Raul654]]... [[User:JRM|JRM]] 07:41, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)
Bish, I'm well over it. Any protest you care to make will have my 100% support. This outcome is just depressing. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Talk]] 08:46, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
Same holds for me. [[User:Mark Dingemanse|<nowiki> </nowiki>]]— [[User:Mark Dingemanse|mark]] [[User Talk:Mark Dingemanse|✎]] 09:49, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:My commiserations, friends. As you may alread be aware, the decision has been passed down from on high that the Featured Article tomorrow will be [[Nintendo Entertainment System]]. I wish this were a joke, and if I were posting this tomorrow rather than today then you might be well inclined to think so, but I assure you it is true [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates#4.2F1.2F2005_article_schedule_-_not_ETPH]. I have just posted my profound disappointments about the outcome to WikiEN. I am afraid your singular talents are squandered here, pearls before the swine, etc etc etc. Yours in mourning, [[User:Viajero|Viajero]] 11:11, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I find it sad that WP is intended to be more solemn than serious. The idea of pre-announcing foolery undermines the idea so fundamentally that I can only imagine that Jimbo has become confused by his desire to satisfy both parties. Personally, I have had/am having so much fun with this that the main page issue is irrelevant. The completely humorless choice of NES after opening a debate seems particularly autocratic but it is the indicator of solemnity as a core value that disappoints me. --[[User:TheoClarke|Theo ]] [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 13:54, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:That and the fact that some opinions are more highly regarded that others. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Talk]] 14:09, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
::Do you really have a problem with some opinions carrying more weight than others, Fil? (May I call you Fil?) It seems to me that Mark/Raul stated his opinion at the outset and stuck with it. I do not admire that, but it is his prerogative. Sigh ... --[[User:TheoClarke|Theo ]] [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 14:20, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:::Fil is fine. I do, when there is so clearly a consensus against that opinion. I agree wholeheartedly with what dab said on the subject, I'm afraid. Yes, it is prerogative to stick to his opinion, but is his responsibility to concede when his opinion does not carry the day, just like any other member of the community. Running to Jimbo when the other children did not want to play the game reflects very badly on him, and on mav, IMHO. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Talk]] 14:54, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
::::I think that we are of one accord. --[[User:TheoClarke|Theo ]] [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 19:25, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
===Update===
Well, I'm sorry Geogre hasn't weighed in, and perforce not Giano, who is away, but we'll either have to take this as consensus or be left on the platform, since it's already April 1 in some parts of the world. I'm talking with a mediator who's trying to find a better alternative than Jimbo's special April fool's page, which I've literally only seen '''one''' person have a good word to say for (Mav, who called it a great idea). Oh, and Jimbo has asked me in a private mail to be a good sport and let people use ETPH for the special "fun" page, but I think we're agreed about saying no to that. (Politely. Calling his proposal "Lame-O-Rama" once is enough, I reckon. (I got carried away.)) OK, so I've just sent this reply to a question by MacGyverMagic on the mailing list. Iacta alea est.
''MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote on 2005/03/31 11:37:
''> Wasn't it originally written for April Fools Day? Why
''> are you suddenly objecting against it being used?
''Written for April Fool's day? Why, no, not at all. It was written as a joke between friends, for comedic bonding, it's basically a dialogue. That doesn't show in the product, but then it wasn't written for a product but for the writing process itself, the back-and-forth. Modestly, if we had been going for an April 1 hoax page, I think we could have made a funnier one. But the process has been hilarious, for my taste, and surely harmless to wikipedia, or even beneficial. The contributors are all committed and productive editors, and some of us were getting close to burning out on the project. The joking-around cheered us up. The userspace isn't paper.
''When there began to *be* a product there, an imperect one, I thought I might nominate it on WP:FAC on April 1. That seemed quite daring--so limited were my horizons! TBSDY preempted the plan by stumbling on the page in February and FAC'ing it on the spot. Proposing it for the Main page for April 1was first done by several people on that FAC vote, not by any of the contributors. But we were quite happy to go along with the idea, and have been promoting it some. I would love to see it used tomorrow, just *not* for some alternative "Click here for how we might have April fool'd you" Main page. That's what I'm objecting to.
''Please don't, for that purpose, move it, copy it, link to it, or use it.''
''Bishonen
Incidentally, I ask people to please hold off reverting sj's changes, even if the first edit doesn't look so great. He's got quite big plans, and I feel he should be left to make them more complete before we interfere (can always do that later). --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 18:38, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:No linking? Oh. [[April Fool's Day 2005]]. Anyway, isn't it [[GFDL]], so, subject to giving author attribution, they can do what the like with it. -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User_talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 19:46, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
::Indeed it is and they very much can. Legally, a userpage is just the same as any other wiki page. I was advised on the mailing list, though, that people would more likely choose to go with what has become established wiki courtesy, i. e. not move or otherwise use a page in my space against my wishes. I appreciate that freely extended courtesy very much. --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 11:46, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::Well, the "right" result seems to have come about eventually, although I am rather worried by the proliferation of "jokes" everywhere. A few (ETPH on the front-page, Wikipaedia Britannica in the news, VfD on FAC) seem well targetted and pretty harmless, but there is going to be a lot of sorting out to be done over the next few days. -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User_talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 12:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
===Lame-o-Rama===
<nowiki>*</nowiki>ahem* Well, you see, the point of the parody page is *NOT* to fool people, obviously. You don't fool people by saying "click here to see our April 1 parody page". So I plead completely innnocent to the charge of being so stupid as to not understand the concept of fooling people.
Now we find that the page wasn't written _for April 1_ after all. Ok, super! This makes it all the more perfect for a more general set of funny pages specifically designed _in honor of_ April 1 (which involves a lot more humor than just putting thumbtacks on people's chairs you know ;-)).
It's a great page, and I find it very ironic that the perpetrator of such a delicious thing is being so pissy about it being included on a general humor page. It's going to be great fun! --[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] 19:37, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:Fun, yes. ''Funny'', no. Watch Wikipedians pull rabbits out of their hats? [[Rocky and Bullwinkle|That trick never works...]] [[User:JRM|JRM]] 20:30, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)
::I am concerned about the lack of respect that most of us (and I include myself in that 'most') are showing here. We are bickering: questioning the intelligence of others; using words like 'lame' and 'pissy'. This started as a bit of fun; now it is turning sour. I have forged friendships through this 'project' so I have gained, whatever the outcome. I think it would be best, however, if we could let go of our grievances. We have had our fun and we have found it funny. Other people now want to have their own fun with what we built. We tried to reshape the article to address the concerns that it appeared to be raising in some quarters. Now the monster is walking and Dr Frankenstein might be wise to get out of its way. --[[User:TheoClarke|Theo ]] [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 20:36, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) (PS: Where are all the other T-namers? Oppressed! That's where!)
:My problem is that it is somewhat lame to run yet another hobbyist article on April 1. I generally judge the seriousness and intelligence of a body by the parodies it creates. When the NYT has its spoof, it's usually great. I thought this would be more testimony to the powerful and intelligent writers at Wikipedia than a Ripley's Believe It Or Not article on [[Jackalope]] or the trivia hunter stuff like the Society for Prevention of Calling Sleeping Car Porters "George," but either of those would be better than the dreary hobbyist articles. The [[Nintendo Entertainment System]] is a good FA, and I don't mean to denigrate its particular qualities, but the ''type'' of article it is...the "Heya, Kids! Come write on Wikipedia! We love it when you write about games" type of article drives me nuts. I also did not enjoy the dogmatic, blind, and fevered lobbying that people were doing against the article. I was surprised and disappointed by that. As for an alternate page on the front, if that's the only way to show off our fun side, then so be it. [[User:Geogre|Geogre]] 00:09, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'd just like to agree with others that the really important things that happened for me here were that A) Wikipedia became more fun than it had been for a time and B) I made new friends here. The rest is [[small beer]], really. Last night when I got home I found an e-mail telling me that an [[Robert Creeley|old friend]] had died. Now, that put things here into a different context, I can tell you. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Talk]] 10:14, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
==Go vote!!==
{{Message_box|
id =FAC|
backgroundcolor =#F3F9FF|
image =Featured_article_candidate_.png|
heading =This article is a current [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates|featured article candidate]]. Please add comments on [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/European toilet paper holder|its nomination sub-page]].|
message =A featured article should exemplify Wikipedia's very best work. See [[Wikipedia:What is a featured article|what is a featured article]] for criteria.}}
== Auto Fellatio Picture ==
Is there any reason for wanting to keep the auto-fellatio picture in there? (have just removed it)
*Well, I replaced it with [[Pikachu]], but it was then reverted by the user who added it in the first place. Meh. [[User:Android79|android]]↔[[User talk:Android79|talk]] 03:56, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
**Thanks, guys. The user has been blocked. --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 06:51, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
==?==
why the yellow border? [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''ᛏ''')]]</small> 07:00, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
==Hold on==
As we know, the Internet is not worth the paper it's written on, but I found a graphic representation [http://www.samanddave.jp/fukuoka/english/events/images/0503/main.jpg] of the subject, relating to the musical reference, within the website of the Japanese ''Sam & Dave Club'' [http://www.samanddave.jp/]. Curiously, the image has a discernible Celtic influence. --[[User:Zigger|Zigger]] 09:05, 2005 Apr 1 (UTC)
I think this article is totally ridiculous and needs to be removed if Wikipedia would ever like to take itself seriously.
:It's ridiculous, but it isn't an article--look at the name. It's a userpage. --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 14:42, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is reasonably amusing (even given the date) - and will make people aware of links they might not otherwise have considered.
== I give up ==
Okay, seriously, I don't get it. Why is this supposed to be so great? -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|✎]] 15:13, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:Cyrius, if you're just bitching I can't help you, but if you're willing to invest a bit of boredom, I'll tell you the history, which explains how it's funny to '''me''', though nothing else, I guess. It's a parody. Giano and I had collaborated to write [[John Vanbrugh]], which turned into a big-ass undertaking, and we were pretty new and feeling our way. It took a lot of research. When it was done we needed to let our hair down. I stumbled over an image of a supposedly "baroque" toilet paper holder in a webstore, and did a silly stub about how Vanbrugh put special toilet paper holders into one of his famous baroque masterpieces, and challenged Giano to add something even dumber. And he did, and then I added more, and it grew. We were saturated in JV, and put in the same kinds of things as there, just, well, like the dark side of them. :-) [[Image:010405f.png|thumb|200px|right|For your enjoyment: Screenshot by [[User:Hedley|Hedley]], very kindly placed on my userpage by [[User:Viajero|Viajero]] (ah, Spanish, language of onions, as [[User:Filiocht|Blarneyman]] would hauntingly have exclaimed here). Do let's all pretend that such tasty accolades are for me personally, not for all of us! That's the way I like 'em, so don't anybody be mean! [[Bishonen]].]] There weren't any '''jokes''', we more imitated each other's typical styles. Other people have added a lot of good stuff later, but they have basically followed the style that was already there, so without knowing it, they may have been parodying JV too. :-) Well, this is a theory I just thought of! I bet Filiocht would be surprised to be told that '''that''' was what he was doing. Anyway, I'm going a long way round to my suggestion, which is: maybe it'll come to you if you take look at [[John Vanbrugh]]. As for why some other people are laughing--people who surely have mostly not read JV--I'm pleased, I'm proud, I'm very grateful to them, and I have '''no''' idea why. --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 20:12, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC).
::Call me dumb but for some reason I never made the explicit connection between ETPH and Vanbrugh... but now you've spelt it out for me I like the spooof more than ever - Blenheim is a very special place for me and my fiancee - so much so that we are getting married there later this year! Thanks for the award, will treasure it always. [[User:Pcb21|Pcb21|]] [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 17:19, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::Really, Blenheim is that special to you? That's great, a real piece of luck, because it was pure serendipity that I awarded you the Blenheim holder out of all others. Click [http://www.berunner.com/?disp_product=64 here], btw, to see the image in its original context. ;-) I've handed out some seven or eight hand-crafted awards, I hope the victims feel very free to remove them promptly and embarrassedly—I don't really expect them to stay up very long. I hope you have a great wedding, Pete. --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 17:47, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Very cool reading. [[User:Nickinny]]
:Very glad you think so! :-) --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 20:12, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I was aware of the JV roots of the thing, but as it opened out, it also became a parody of the Wikipedia process itself; referencing, edit wars, edit summaries, and everything else pretty much got thrown into the pot; all the [[sacred cow]]s. I expect that this is part of why some people who nothing of JV find it funny, and others have the extreme version of the opposite reaction. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Serious fun]] 07:28, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
==Update 3 April 2005==
In the midst of the limelight that has played on ETPH the last few days ("What do you ''mean'' 'limelight'? Close the door, for decency's sake!" [[User:Wetman|Wetman]]), don't forget to enjoy and cherish the additions and improvements that have been going on just as usual. They include some very delightful items from newcomers. Yet my personal nomination for most remarkable recent addition is from the King of Regulars: if you feel like being moved to tears, get a load of [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]]'s celebration of the [[Treaty of Westphalia]] (1648). Yeah! Salute the Blarneyman! (And also, click on the screenshot above and feast your eyes!) --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 16:36, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:You're too kind. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Serious fun]] 07:31, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
== An affront to civilization==
I am both shocked and horrified that such a low life subject as "toilet paper holders" can even be discussed on such a worthy project as Wikipedia, such artefacts are disgusting and unworthy of debate and intercourse. Where I come from we don't talk about it - what we do behind closed doors, we keep behind closed doors and that's the way all right thinking people should regard the subject. I blame this whole filthy subject on [[User:Bishonen|Bishoperson]] who should be banned forever for filthy thoughts, and [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] who would probably have had filthy thoughts if he had not been writing such exceedingly long articles on poems good honest folk don't have the time to read. They have corrupted the thoughts of such worthy young people as [[User:Giano|Giano]] who has risen above them and is surely one of the saints indeed, but what about [[User:TheoClarke|Theo]] that hapless boy is now making belated contributions to this filth, and as for [[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo]] that such a fine upstanding member of society as been forced to pass comment on such literary corruption is just a further example of the worm that is eating away at our bowels. Join me now in the prayer of [[Torquemada]] to [[User:Raul654|St. Raul]] - "Save us Oh Magnificent one, now and at the hour of our death from such vile and wicked influences and luxuries as the toilet paper holder, and may we always know the scourge of the [[Hemorrhoid]] and may [[User:Cyrius|Serious]] stay fast in his innocence and simplicity Amen" ........ [[Chiaramonte|Di Drakula (Mrs)]]
*Sigh. I daresay we can expect the rest of [[User:Giano|Giano]]'s aunts to weigh in shortly. I will just say this: Mrs DiDracula, this is '''not''' an article about intercourse, I don't know where you got that impression. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 21:57, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
==flushing==
this is not about TPHs per se, but somebody just turned up at [[Talk:Indus Valley Civilization]] claiming the Bronze Age IVC had flushing toilets. I thought the honorable editors of this article may be interested in that ground-breaking theory. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''ᛏ''')]]</small> 10:52, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:(Patiently) it's not about intercourse and it's not about '''toilets'''. It's a grand historical sweep through European politics, culture, religion, and, yes, '''beauty'''. What is this obsession with intimate bodily functions anyway? It's like being on IRC or something! But I'm quite resigned, I know that references to toilets, fertilizer, and the unusual sex life of Giano's extended family will forever come creeping in, so why don't you put it in yourself, dab? --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 12:09, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::I'm sorry Bishonen, I think you misunderstand. I was trying to say, if indeed the IVC had flushable toilets, it is highly likely that they also had sophisticated toilet paper holders. Hitherto undefined excavated IVC objects should be re-evaluated whether they could not, in fact, be Bronze Age toilet paper holders, that may have influenced Ancient Near Eastern forms through the hypothetized trade route from [[Meluhha]] to Sumer, and ultimately may have evolved into early European designs! I am being serious here! [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''ᛏ''')]]</small> 12:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::Of course you are, sorry for the misunderstanding—the idea of '''sophisticated''' tph's is very lovely, with its hint (to the cognoscenti) that it might have been a major challenge to extract the inserted paper from the objets d'art you describe. That would be a bit of a setback for the unattractive utilitarian dimension of the article! You're saying it's time we branched into original research? Yeah, maybe so. Wikipedia doesn't want that, but it's time we moved on to a scientific journal anyway.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 13:13, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::::With, of course, multiple footnotes every fourth word. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|King of Regulars]] 13:27, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
:::::Your Majesty! And may they all say "Gibbon, ''passim''"! --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Talk]] 13:44, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::::::Of course! [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|King of Regulars]] 14:00, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
Wearing my archaeologist's hat (it is dark green with a broad brim), I must say that flushing toilets in the Indus Valley seem unlikely. Current theory has it that this civilization was not literate: that its 'writing' was reserved for economic and ritual purposes. With no reading material, the use of a toilet would be a rapid process and the elimination of odour would be of no great concern. I now sympathise with the Chaldeans: with clay tablets instead of paper. --[[User:TheoClarke|Theo ]] [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 19:10, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:Nice hat, but more pertinently, I suspect we may be dealing with a kind of Ur-TPH here, perhaps a vessel filled with broken clay fragments, somewhat on the Spartan nettle model? [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|King of Regulars]] 13:33, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
::I like this theory, but most likely the sanitary clay vessel was the prerogative of the literate (and hence, "anal-retentive"?) upper class. Your average field worker would have had to do without such distinguished comforts, and was probably content with the odd palm leaf. In the IVC, we may even be looking at an early paperless (or rather leafless, since paper was not even invented!) toilet, and the mythical Saraswati so lauded in the Vedic hymns may have had the main function of powering these proto-Japanese models. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''ᛏ''')]]</small> 15:30, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::So Ur-IT? However, has it not always been the case that innovation in product development and marketing tends to start witht he rich and (unfortunate image in the present context) trickle down? [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Blarneyman]] 15:35, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
::::I am difficulty visualising an archetypal TPH. Where is a Plato when you need him? Or a Jung. Also, wearing my marketing hat (an ultramarine fedora by Christie's), product innovation starts at the level determined by the target segment. The needs of your average field worker differ from those of your average patrician, for example. --[[User:TheoClarke|Theo ]] [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 00:43, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::::Ah, that is what is missing - a section on [[philosophy]] of the TPH, including the [[Platonic ideal]] TPH and its [[instantiation]]s (hmm - that last is very unsatisfatory: "object lifetime" indeed). -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User_talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 10:35, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::::::I made a quick dab page. Now who says this article has no function in improving WP! The ideal TPH would look a lot like Leonardo's sketch I imagine. In a Darwinistic framework, however, it would look more like palm tree, providing conveniently sized leaves hanging down to a height comfortably reached from a squatting position. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''ᛏ''')]]</small> 11:19, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::::::I leave this place for a sunkissed pyramid for five minutes and return to find mayhem, the lavatorial habits of field workers being openly discussed, Filiocht seems to have promoted himself above his station (no not Heuston or Conolly Filiocht) and Bishonen orchestrating as Master of Ceremonies (Please stop referring to the sex life of my relations Bishonen). At least we have [[User:Dbachmann|Dab]] who seems to be attempting to life the tone of the page. Well I am back, and displeased to note that while everyone has been fooling around here no one has thought to buy or even photograph for the page the "Royal Wedding Souvenir Toilet Paper Holder" a limited edition of 470,000,000 by [[Franklin Mint]] known as "The Camilla". I suppose you have all been waiting for me to come back and stump up the 36 easy monthly instalments! Well so be it in the interests of art, taste and refinement. [[User:Giano|Giano]] | [[User talk:Giano|Talk]] 11:29, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
== Camilla ==
Congratulations to Giano for some excellent research. [http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Camilla+%22toilet+paper+holder%22&btnG=Search&meta= Google] yields 87 hits for 'Camilla "toilet paper holder"' so it must be true. --[[User:TheoClarke|Theo ]] [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 14:38, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:but why place it at the end of the article? It becomes painfully clear that the postwar 20th century is woefully neglected, and the 21st century is only present in the form of science-fictiony technocratic triumphalism. What about postmodernism? What about the dedication to kitsch in the 1980s? It seems that we went from Imperial Russia to Space Age in one giant step, and only the Camilla betrays that there are ordinary people using ordinary, or at least non-digital, tphs still. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''ᛏ''')]]</small> 14:53, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::Indeed, one Google result linking to the [http://www.homedecorzone.com/Tiara_Collection_Toilet_Paper_Holder_4333GT.html Tiara Collection Toilet Paper Holder]. Almost good enough for a reference on its own, although it is missing the imitation cubic zirconia adornments. -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User_talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 15:35, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::Thank you Aloan! I hope you Dab are not suggesting that the object d'art which I have researched on behalf of Wikipedia is kitsch. Well, let me tell you it is an heirloom of the future to be prized and cherished by forthcoming generations and connoisseurs of the arts. I have placed it at the end of the page because unlike some: the "King of the Regulars" (he's never been the same since he finished "that page" - don't mention The Cantos it only encourages him) springs to mind, I am a modest person, but please feel free to place it where you wish. [[User:Giano|Giano]] | [[User talk:Giano|Talk]] 15:38, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::::not at all! you will note that I was referring to the 1980s, where 'kitsch', far from being a derogatory term, amounted to the sought-after apex of artistic achievment. The Camilla has the hallmark of the true post-postmodernist tph in that, while making oblique allusions to the kitsch culture, it harks back to an era of quality workmanship yet untainted by the faint sarcasm of mass-produced luxury goods. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''ᛏ''')]]</small> 16:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::::All right...all right... hiccoughing weakly after reading [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bishonen/European_toilet_paper_holder#The_Camilla The Camilla]... I give up, I am covered in gold plate effect lacquer! Support me with caryatids, for I am helpless! Hail the new king, the [[User:Giano|Mafioso]] is back! (Hmmm? '''Yes''', holding on to my self-proclaimed importance by nominating new royalty every so often and sowing strife between 'em '''is''' precisely my plan, any further questions?) Incidentally, Giano, I suppose the inspiration for the gold plate effect lacquer comes from your mother-in-law's tin tph which, unaccountably, still "illustrates" the Ancient Astronaut Theory section?--[[User:Bishonen|Bish]]|[[User talk:Bishonen|Bosh]] 19:09, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::::::*I have repeatedly asked you not to mention my family in public. By ridiculing my mother in law's exquisite bathroom fitments you merely display your own shortcomings, we do not boast of our Palladian bathroom fittings we merely accept them as the every day adornments and comfort to our lives that they are. Is it my fault that when your ancestors were out doing, one wonders what with the local elk, mine were commissioning the great architects of the world to design bathroom fitments? No, it is not! - So please cast aside your socialistic views in favour of the greater betterment of the world, in doing so you will find contentment and lasting satisfaction. Civil regards: [[User:Giano|Giano]] | [[User talk:Giano|Talk]] 20:41, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::::::I abdicate. I abase myself before the new king. Perhaps Giano, you could,from personal knowledge, confirm or deny the rumour that all Camilla's family were unable to attend the rearranged wedding as they were running in the Grand National that day? I know you were there, and suspect I may have spotted you supporting the groom's elbow as he curry-combed his bride outside the hall? [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Blarneyman]] 07:41, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
== When will you move this to the main article namespace? ==
I'm just curious. Thanks, [[User:Nyenyec|nyenyec]] [[User talk:Nyenyec|☎]] 05:30, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
:That'll be on the day we '''want''' to see it go up in flames—which would be a tragic but also resplendent sight—because it can't live in the bracing air of the article namespace. A grand death-scene might be the most dignified way to go, and the VFD debate ought to be a comic classic.
:In other words, this piece would be immediately VFD'd and deleted if it left the protected userspace zone. It's "patent nonsense" and "sneaky vandalism" and "might make its readers distrust Wikipedia" for ever more. (These arguments from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates/archive7 Great April Fool's Day Hoax War of 2005]). It would get put on VFD like ''that'' if it ventured into the article namespace. Some day we'll move it and sit back and watch the fireworks, I suppose. But not just yet.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 06:00, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
::Please not yet. I'm still researching the [[League of Cambrai]] and the impact of the fall of the [[British empire]]. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Blarneyman]] 07:19, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
::: "''It's patent nonsense''" !!! You speak for your own contributions, let me tell you my contributions are all verifiable in proper written books, on real paper, by very famous people indeed. How dare you imply otherwise. Just because you're an administrator (ostentatious amount of votes) doesn't mean you can go about ridiculing other people's hard work - No it does not! [[User:Giano|Caesar]]
::::Very well, if the idea of '''citing''' arguments (even ludicruous arguments) without necessarily '''endorsing''' them goes over the head of Giano's ghost-writer (hello there, Mrs DiDracula, top of the morning to you), in spite of being referenced and everything, I'll add quote marks round the worst allegations. There, is that better? Can I go back to polishing my trophies and tributes now? It's just about time for a little commemorative toast. --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 10:07, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
:::::P.S. Fil, would you agree that your notion of cause and effect could use a little [[deconstruction]]? Don't you mean "the impact '''on''' the fall of the British empire"? --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 10:16, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
:::::: Both, Bish. Clearly the more ornate Victorian tphs are a symbol of the kind of decadence that contributed to the decline. However, we must not neglect the link between the post-WWII rush to ugly functionalism and the post-decline crisis of confidence. I'm looking for figures on tph production before, during and after the Suez crisis to try to back this up. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Blarneyman]] 11:42, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
*It's too late now to start adding quote marks, and being nice to people; and don't mention my name in a public place, it's Signora Nora di Drakula to you, its all your fault this wasn't on the main page on April 1st, if poor dear hard working Giano had not had to go to Cairo to sort out that little unpleasantness with the family business "Palermo Protection" he would have sorted things out here, and you would all be really famous like Giano - who has the record for the least ever number of votes ever for an article on FAC, and don't think I don't know who to blame for that, yes you Bishoperson, fancy not knowing "both is for two" thank goodness for that hapless boy Theo who spotted it his reward will be with the Lord. Now you come here and start to insult poor Giano's hard efforts. And don't bring the Suez crisis into all this, that poor President Nasser and that lovely water feature in Aswan, and as for the British Empire it was all stolen from the Sicilian people who got there first; and stop trying to influence the thoughts and work of that poor Irish boy, if he wants to write another ten million words (like he normally does) on a subject then let him. I've no more to say to you, your no better than that Tony Blair. [[Nora di Drakula (Mrs.]]
:*I'm touched, really touched, by your concern, and while poor and Irish are thrown at me all the time, it's nice to be called a boy again after such a long time. <POV alert>But nobody, not even Bish, deserves to be described as "no better than that Tony Blair", do they? </POV alert> [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Blarneyman]] 13:26, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
::Dear Mrs di Drakula, how could you be so insensitive as to mention Giano's Palace debacle under the pretence of defending him? We have been courteously ignoring the FAC result, just as we ignored the FAC. <small> Ooops!</small> --[[User:TheoClarke|CunningTroll]] | [[User talk:TheoClarke|talk]] 17:32, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
:::*Oh dear , oh dear what can one say, my poor dear late lamented sister (she died of apoplexy shortly after her last Wiki contribution) I can only apologise for any ill feeling she has caused here, she was very protective of our nephew [[User:Giano|Giano]] but then most people are, for protection is his business. And you dear Theo what a charming face you have on your user page, of what trumped up crime had the evil British Secret Police accused you for them to take such a photo? However to console you all, in the loss of my dear sister Nora di Dracula, I shall be soon adding my personal memoirs of the bathroom fitments at [[Villa Torlonia ]] of which I personally availed myself when I took tea with you know who? Oh Theo, you remind me of him - a man with such presence, have you thought of shaving your head? - You should [[User:Signora Monferrato|Signora Monferrato]] 20:13, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I was coming to ask you the same question as the orginal poster, but now have decided to point something out: The article WAS on the mainpage on April 1st.
*<s>See: [[:Image:April Fools Wikipedia.png]]. </s>
**doh! you already knew this.
[[Image:Oddball barnstar green dark an.gif|thumb|116px|
I, [[User:*Kat*|*Kat*]] hereby award you the Oddball barnstar for [[User:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder|European toilet paper holder]]. Thank you for providing this brilliant article.]]
By the way, has anybody ever told you that you have WAY too much time on your hands.
I still think you should post this in regular namespace, without destroying the original (not that you could, with edit histories and all). [[User:*Kat*|*Kat*]] 07:36, May 14, 2005 (UTC)
==Someone set us up the animated .gif==
(Slashdot humour isn't usually exactly typical of ETPH, but ever since I saw that heading once on [[Talk:Main Page]], I've longed to recycle it.) Greetings, nutjobs! [[User:*Kat*]] (commenting immediately above) has very kindly placed the attached [[:Image:Oddball barnstar green dark an.gif|Oddball barnstar]] on my talk page, and I'm moving it here, to its natural home. It honours us all, not just me, and make sure you enjoy the animation, people. The star may seem quiescent at first glance, but stare at it for long enough, and ... AAAIIEEEEEEEEEE!! Thank you very much, *Kat*, and, well, time we may have, but above all we have dedication. Please contribute! --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 22:17, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
:Unquestionably, it is time to sleep ... this page just '''winked''' at me! --[[User:TheoClarke|Theo ]] [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 22:30, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
== Noindexed ==
I've added a {{tl|noindex}} tag. While this page is amusing, not everyone who'd stumble upon it in a search engine (and Google, at least, finds it) would realize that the fact it's in userspace means it's not meant as a serious article — or know about userspace at all. — [[User:Coren|Coren]] <sup>[[User Talk:Coren|(talk)]]</sup> 14:44, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
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