Talk:Dalit: Difference between revisions

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== A Different Perspective on the Meaning of Dalit(दलित) ==

{{todo}}

{{edit semi-protected|Dalit|answered=yes}}

==EVIDENCE FOR Relation between Sengunthars/ Kaikolars and Devadasis==

Beside the meaning of Sanskrit word "दलित"(Dalit) 'broken', 'scattered' in classical Sanskrit, it also means 'kneaded', 'pressurized' , 'downtrodden' when applied in a more specifically personal context.

Source:hi.m.wikipedia.org

1. The following is quoted from a legitimate third party website. http://globalindiamissions.org/newsletter/nwsltr0802.htm

https://hi.m.wikipedia.org › wiki

दलित

As Sanskrit is the origin lan. of Hindi and the letter-format is same for both Hindi and Sanskrit except for the first two letters of the alphabet of the languages , the Sanskrit meaning is same of a Sanskrit word as the Hindi meaning of that very same word.

For confirmation, one can see the eng. translation of the word 'दलित' in official "Google Translate" app offered by Google LLC making the Tr. system from Hindi to English. THE HINDI MEANINGS OF THE WORD "दलित" IN HINDI ARE AS FOLLOWS - 1. कुचला हुआ (trodden on or downtrodden) , दबाया हुआ(preesurized or suppressed)

2.

नष्ट किया हुआ (ruined or devastated)

The above mentioned bracketed eng. transliterations are the English translations of the Hindi meanings of the word 'दलित'. One knowing Hindi can also see the Hindi Wikipedia page of 'दलित', of which the link is given at the very beginning for clarification.

[[Special:Contributions/2402:3A80:113A:6FF9:B998:ABD2:43F0:7F94|2402:3A80:113A:6FF9:B998:ABD2:43F0:7F94]] ([[User talk:2402:3A80:113A:6FF9:B998:ABD2:43F0:7F94|talk]]) 01:08, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{Tlx|Edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> — [[User:DaxServer|DaxServer]] ([[User talk:DaxServer|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/DaxServerOnMobile|m]] · [[Special:Contributions/DaxServer|c]]) 09:18, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

== Evidence of Human sacrifice? ==

'''The Kaikolan are a large Tamil and Telugu caste of weavers. There are seventy-two subdivisions (nadu or desams). Their name comes from a mythical hero and from the words "kai" (hand) and "koi" (shuttle). They consider the different parts of the loom to represent various gods and sages. They are also known as Sengundar, which means a red dagger, which is traced to the legend of the earth being harassed by demons, which led to the people asking the god Shiva to help them.'''

"Under these 17th century kings, human sacrifice of untouchable persons was not unusual"

'''Traditionally, one girl in every family was set apart to be dedicated to temple service and becomes a "Devdasi" (meaning female servant of god). In the temple, the girl is considered married to the temple deity but in practice becomes a prostitute, especially to the Brahmans and she learns traditional music and dancing.'''

2. The following is '''journal research article with abundant valid references'''. This is as legitimate as it gets.

Please provide evidence of this claim [[User:Factpineapple|Factpineapple]] ([[User talk:Factpineapple|talk]]) 19:46, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

This article talks in much detail about how women from the Sengundhar/ Kaikola caste get into the sacred prostitution in temples.

==Wikipedia users asking for evidence when the post is pro-black, native non-Europeans, but Wikipedia often allows postings that are racist without asking for evidence"==

'''"Contending identities: Sacred prostitution and reform in colonial South India Priyadarshini Vijaisri A1, A1 Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), New Delhi" South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies Publisher: Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group Issue: Volume 28, Number 3 / December 2005 Pages: 387 - 411'''

:For Wikipedia to be a legitimate source of information, it must weed out the white supremacy that many editors exhibit. Relatedly, too many articles are white-washed versions of actual history. This article about the "Dalit" totally ignores the role of the Aryans (from Iran) who invaded the Indus Valley (Northern India, Southern Pakistan, and Afghanistan) in c 1700 BCE and effectively did genocide against the original Tamils and other natives, and created Sanskrit and Hinduism plus the caste system we see today in India. Of course, these are theories till this day and not facts. These are mostly Christian propaganda by an early Christian missionary that wanted to convert the Tamils to Christianity. Just like the Abrahamic faiths that defend slavery the Brahmins practiced caste to the detriment of Indians. While these outdated colonialist theories are still nothing but theories as they are rightfully called even today; we need to hold Brahmins responsible even today.

To view the complete article just register, its free.

== Sentence doesn't make sense ==

Here are the links :

"Similar groups are found throughout the rest of the Indian subcontinent; less than 2 per cent of Pakistan's population are Hindu and 70–75 per cent of those Hindus are Dalits, in Nepal, Bangladesh had 5 million Dalits in 2010 with the majority being landless and in chronic poverty, and Sri Lanka."

http://journalsonline.tandf.co.uk/link.asp?id=jv31l27518262711 If you cannot access it then just go to the following page and follow one of the links

This sentence doesn't make any sense and should probably be revised. "in Nepal, Bangladesh had 5 million Dalits in 2010 with the majority being landless and in chronic poverty, and Sri Lanka." There are three countries listed and just one metric, without it being clear that applies to all three countries. The wording makes it sound like Bangladesh is a place that is in Nepal. This: ", and Sri Lanka." just doesn't make sense at all. If Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are a list of countries that all have 5 million landless, chronically impoverished Dalits, they should be grouped together at the beginning of the sentence. [[Special:Contributions/155.190.19.6|155.190.19.6]] ([[User talk:155.190.19.6|talk]]) 21:44, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Contending+identities%3A+Sacred+prostitution+and+reform+in+colonial+South+India

== Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2025 ==

3. This is taken from another legitimate webiste http://www.go2southasia.org/l_peoples.html of a world renknown organisation recognised by many countries. They have no gain in just picking on the Sengunthar caste.

{{edit semi-protected|Dalit|answered=yes}}

'''The KAIKOLAR people are a caste of weavers 1.5 million strong in southern India. They are Hindus and view different parts of the loom as representations of various gods and sages. Traditionally, each Kaikolar family sets aside one daughter to serve in a Hindu temple. That daughter is considered married to the temple deity—often the Hindu destroyer god Shiva. In practice, the daughter becomes a temple prostitute.'''

Common surname in dalit are Ladvanshi, Somvanshi, Andhavanshi, Tilvanshi, Padile, Bawane, Gondvanshi, Kadvanshi, and Kosare in Maharashtra. [[User:Padile96|Padile96]] ([[User talk:Padile96|talk]]) 06:04, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

:{{Template:notdone}} Please provide a [[WP:RS|reliable source]]. [[User:RegentsPark|RegentsPark]] <small>([[User talk:RegentsPark|comment]])</small> 11:43, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

All 3 of the above references are quite legitimate and I can quote many more. There is no question of coincidence or any error in any of these sources. Please comment

==Unsourced Claims==

The following paragraph is highly biased and lacks legitimate sources:

"Attempts by Christian Missionaries to convert Dalits to Christianity still continue, often illegitimately.

Since the [[Constitution of India]] guarantees religious freedom and their right to choose their religion, the conversions have gone unimpeded. However, controversies related to mass-conversions have led to laws being passed against them in some states in India. Several Christian converts have also reconverted back into Hinduism as the conversions did not award them the financial rewards that the missionaries lured them with<ref>[http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050219/nation.htm#9 3,500 poor villagers reconvert to Hinduism],''The Tribune''</ref>."

The one reference given here is not a conclusive study nor does it even state clearly that the recoverted people were lured to their conversion, only that one VHP Hindu activist said that he thought that they did. That does not pass muster. I have added text that more accurately reflects the situation. [[User:Benjaminmarsh|Benjaminmarsh]] 04:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

::Please don't remove reliably sourced text and replace with links to hate sites and hate propoganda.Please keep nonsense racist propoganda off of wikipedia, thanks. [[User:India Rising|India Rising]] 06:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

::What are you talking about HATE? This is a legitimate link. The report in question is recognizes by the British Parliament. I am going to change the paragraph again because your link is NOT APPLICABLE. When you read the article you useage of it amounts to HEARSAY not an actual fact.[[User:Benjaminmarsh|Benjaminmarsh]] 23:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

:::Blaming everything on Hindus, including acts by Christian Fundamentalists is hate speech and does not belong here. AICC is a hate group that demands that all Hindus be murdered and violates [[WP:FRINGE]] [[User:India Rising|India Rising]] 23:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

:::: You are blatently lying. AICC is not a hate group and does not advocate that all Hindus be murdered. I am reverting this change because you are not following Wikipedia Guidelines.[[User:Benjaminmarsh|Benjaminmarsh]] 23:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::And you are vandalizing by removing sources and replacing them with hate. [[User:India Rising|India Rising]] 23:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::: please please please identify the hate I am using. Please. [[User:Benjaminmarsh|Benjaminmarsh]] 23:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::The hate is where you use words like "Hindu Fundamentalism". There is no such thing as Hindu Fundamentalism. There is Hindu Nationalism. Fundamentalism is a concept that applies only to Abrahamic religions (historically with Christianity but later Islam) and does not apply to Dharmic religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism or Jainism. "Hindu Fundamentalism" is a fake term invented by Christian Fundamentalists to deflect attention from their atrocities on Hindus. AICC is definitely a hate group (they spread hate against Hindus so they are a hate group just like Bajrang Dal is a hate group) and not reliable in theface of the many reliable news sources cited before you vandalized it.[[User:India Rising|India Rising]] 23:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

::::::: Hindu fandamentalism is a term - use google. It is in widespread use beyond evnagelical Christians. RAND corp. had a report on New Religious Movements and highlighted Hindu Fundamentalism. I can email it to you. Also, The US State Dept. and UK Central Office have reports on religious violence and cite Hindu fundamentalism. Also, AICC is not a hate group. Where in their documents or speeches or in media can you identify that they are a hate group? Also, please tell me how you are not using the articles in question as hearsay? 23:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, please remember that alot of people readingt his article do not live in and have very little knowledge of India or her politicians. In the section marked 'Dalits and Religion', some fairly inflamatory comments are made and attributed to 'some politicians'. Which politicians? You have to cite exactly who has made these comments, or else it will be presumed that these are mere 'weasel words', and therefore will be deleted. [[User:Wandering Star|Wandering Star]] 14:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I guess only modern day untouchables prefer the word Dalit to Harijan. The article may give the impression that untouchability is still in practice, while it is banned. This article needs to be developed further.

Comments for the above statement: To say that untouchability does not exists since it is banned by the Indian constitution is to say that racial discrimination does not exist in US because the constitution says all men are equal. While it is true untouchability is banned by Indian constitution, the practice is still rampant. Please refer to CBS 60 mins video on google - "http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3966452794541360953" .. it is 7 years old but you will get the idea.

::::::::::Google search and google video is not a [[WP:RS|reliable Source]]. There are many articles on AICC web site that say that Hindus are filthy people and should be converted by force if necessary. AICC is supported by the [[Christian Coalition]] in America which is a hate group that has demanded that Hindus be ethnically cleansed. [[User:India Rising|India Rising]] 23:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

_________________

This article and most articles on the caste system are confusing. They don't '''clearly''' mention if today the caste system is still being used in India or other places. Is it?

:It's not really possible to give a clear answer to the question, as the situation itself is unclear. As the article itself states, caste descrimination and the enforcement of old customs regarding ritual purity are more likely to be maintained in rural areas, while the growth of cities has weakened those prohibitions in urban environments. Most Indians still maintain some sense of caste 'identity'- they consider themselves to belong to one of the traditional caste groupings- but the extent to which they act on that identity varies widely from person to person and family to family. If you look at personal ads in Indian cities, people looking for a spouse will often indicate their caste and indicate whether caste is a consideration for them- it's part of the transformation of the tradition of arrainged marriage. More traditional (often high caste) families may continue to insist that any partner be of the appropriate caste, while others may not include it as a consideration- particularly because the changing economic landscape has blurred the caste barriers considerably among urbanites. The caste system has no legal standing, outside for the efforts to promote equality among the scheduled castes and tribes- somewhat similar to the U.S's affirmative action system, but the scheduled caste system actually includes quotas and reserved slots at schools and public employment, something that AA system doesn't do. --[[User:Spasemunki|Clay Collier]] 23:49, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

==Solution==

[[Casteism]] is a historical social injustice.

[[India]] needs a social solution to social problem.

[[Reservations]] in education and employment is an temporary economical respite.

The original social injustices will never get solved with reservations.

The would suggest 3 phases solution to the problem.

1. Amend the constitution saying that reservations will be scraped when 85% of marriages in India are inter-religious or inter-caste.

2. 85% of people in India are working poor in an informal economy to earn $2 a day so that they can feed a meal for their family.

Their lives oscillate between [[fear]] and [[frustration]].

Ensuring a government backed credible [[Guaranteed minimum income]] system will bring in [[dignity]] instead of [[desperation]].

3. Imposing [[inheritance taxes]] will stimulate [[compassion]] among people living in India.

==POV==

I understand that this is an issue that is emotionally sensitive. However, there are many many such issues at Wikipedia (e.g. [[Rus' (people)]] and [[Armenian genocide]]), and Wikipedia is guided by the principle of [[NPOV]], which is ''non-negotiable''. This is an excerpt from [[Indo-Aryan migration]]:

:A [[2001]] examination of male [[DNA|Y-DNA]] by Indian and American scientists indicated that higher castes are genetically closer to Western [[Eurasian]]s than are individuals from lower castes, whose [[genetic]] profiles are similar to other Asians. According to [[http://jorde-lab.genetics.utah.edu/elibrary/Bamshad_2001a.pdf Bamshad et al. (2001)]], higher caste Telugus have a higher frequency of haplogroup 3 (R1a1) than lower castes. Haplogroup 3 is also characteristic of Eastern Europeans. In the study, Bamshad and his team wrote, "Our results demonstrate that for biparentally inherited [[autosomal]] markers, genetic distances between upper, middle, and lower [[caste]]s are significantly correlated with rank; upper castes are more similar to [[European]]s than to [[Asian]]s; and upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are lower castes."

How can this article possibly claim that the foreign origin of the upper castes is ''debunked''? I also strongly react against the article's claim that the most common perception of the spread of the [[Indo-European languages]] is racist.--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 12:11, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

:I don't think that the article is making either of these claims anymore. Further, from the introduction to the same paper that is cited in the Aryan migration article:

::Previous genetic studies of Indian castes have failed to achieve a consensus on Indian origins and affinities. Various results have supported closer affinity of Indian castes either with Europeans or with Asians, and several factors underlie this inconsistency. First, erratic or limited sampling of populations has limited inferences about the relationships between caste and continental populations (i.e., Africans, Asians, Europeans). These relationships are further confounded by the wide geographic dispersal of caste populations. Genetic affinities among caste populations are, in part, inversely correlated with the geographic distance between them (Malhotra and Vasulu 1993), and it is likely that affinities between caste and continental populations are also geographically dependent (e.g., different between North and South Indian caste populations). Second, it has been suggested that castes of different rank may have originated from or admixed with different continental groups (Majumder and Mukherjee 1993). Third, the size of caste populations varies widely, and the effects of genetic drift on some small, geographically isolated castes may have been substantial.

:The statements in the article at present claim that there isn't a clear biological basis for Dalit/untouchable status. The differences between different Dalit groups- particularly geographically disperate Dalits- are probably as great or greater than the differences between a Dalit group and members of the local Shudra population. This study helps confirm the idea that Indo-Aryan speakers from Europe inserted themselves at the top of the caste system; it doesn't do anything to answer questions about the pre- or post-Aryan origins of the Dalit class, or establish a clear biological basis for determining who is of Dalit origin. I think that the NPOV notice should stand, particularly because of problems with the verification of a lot of the statements on the current status and government attitudes towards Dalits, but I'm curious what you think about hte biological arguments as they currently stand. --[[User:Spasemunki|Clay Collier]] 07:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

:I can assure you that caste system is well and alive in India. It is a part of National conscience and psyche. Inter caste marriages do occur in India but only amongst upper castes. Caste system can be best defined as both racism as well as stringent class system based on birth origin. One's caste will remain the same for all future generations. Indian laws and constitution do outlaw caste system based discrimination (not caste system) If there were no laws oulawing discrimination the government would not be able to function in face of the sheer opposition and allegations of racism within India and internationally. But the bottomline is the unwritten laws and conventions. Caste system gets its backing from the people not from the Indian constitution. Legitimacy of the Caste system is in inverse contrast with Britain where there is no written constitution but still democracy works so well. In Indian there are those unwritten laws of religion and society that establish caste system. Caste system is as much alive among Indian diaspora living in UK, USA, Canada, Fiji, Trinidad etc.

:Caste system is bad only for outcasts, not for the ones it grants the privilleges on grounds of birth origin. People, who want to ransack Indian history, ancient texts can find that Caste system has been buttressed by many Indian texts, Bhagvad Githa being one of them (you may buy one from Hare Krishna sect in the West!) Manusmriti is the book that lays the unjust foundations of caste system and also includes several diktats for the outcaste whose sole purpose in life is to serve the ones with higher castes. Interestingly, Indian constitution does not outlaw these much revered and loved texts in India though Germany (a free country) has banned Mein Kemph.

:But to those who want to go to the intellectual depths may find nothing. Because caste system is nothing intellectual. Faith in it is as real as Muslim terrorists who blow themselves up think they're gonna get 72 virgins in heaven! As for modern dalit political leaders, well, they acquire power only by crying foul about the caste system and thus benefit through it. Dalit masses are as abused, messed around and forlorn as ever. In fact, the very day caste system is removed from the Indian mindset, their (dalit political leaders) hugely successful citadels of 'dalit power' will collapse leaving them jobless and powerless. But that is as impossible.

==Cleanup and NPOV==

I went through tonight (after posting the above message) and cleaned up each section of the article as best I could, trying to blunt or remove some of the more POV language and cut out the unverifiable sections. There's still a lot of expansion that needs to be done, but I am wondering what people think about the cleanup and NPOV tags. Are they still needed here? If so, what needs to be done to get this article in better shape. Not particularly talking about expansion here, except where that affects NPOV. --[[User:Spasemunki|Clay Collier]] 08:15, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

== Untouchability ==

Why does untouchability redirect here ? Untouchability is not a dalit only phenomenon was practiced against other castes too. [[User:Tintin1107|Tintin]] [[User_talk:Tintin1107|Talk]] 01:04, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

== Life of a dalit ==

This article needs more details on how the Dalit are treated, for they do exist even if not legally. I feel this article makes it seem like it is not an issue. Because of this article I thought that it was not much of a problem anymore however I have fallen upon a Dalit who has said his story, which showed me otherwise.

== Deletion check ==

An anon has made some [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dalit_%28outcaste%29&diff=49672963&oldid=48916848|removals] from the article without explanation. Can someone who knows anything about the outcaste check if they were valid? --[[User:Kizor|Kizor]] 11:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

==External Links==

I think there are a way too many links in the article. Many of them point to different pages of the same website. I have removed a couple of links pointing to a couple of posts of an individual's blog. That was just an approach to increase the number of readers for that particular blog. I think we only need good quality links providing extra information that are not expressed in this article. Opinion based links should be removed because that destroys the quality of the article. Thanks and God Bless. [[User:Hikingdom|Hikingdom]] 16:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

== Dalits are not out of caste system ==

I think there is a confusion between SC, ST and Dalits here. Scheduled castes are part of the caste system. They are the fourth caste. Scheduled tribes are outside the caste system. Both might be called Dalits. Many of the scheduled castes were traditionally 'untouchables'. I am not sure about the scheduled tribes though. Untouchability was related to the work they the castes did. That's why I am not sure how the ST's fit in the untouchability concept. But I am very sure that the SC's fit in the fourth caste and are not non-castes.

Also, the following sentence is misleading

'Before the freezing of lands and territories during the British colonial period, it may have been possible for Dalits to move up the ladder as Shudras or higher castes.'

Shudras traditionally were the fourth or the so called 'low' castes. The sentence gives an impression as if they were the traditional so called 'higher' caste

:Can you clarify this? The fourth caste is Sudra, right? Are you saying that all Dalits are either ST or Sudra? I didn't think that was the case, but I'm hardly an expert on this subject.&mdash;[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]^{([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])} 03:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

ST (Scheduled Tribes) , SC ( Scheduled Castes) are legal/constitutional categories of lowest castes. Though to the best of my knowledge all dalits would be outcasts, falling out of the four classes, including last one, Sudra which should include petty farmers, artisans but not outcasts like leather workers, undertakers, cleaners, slaves etc. Not to mention even if few outcasts today may not be doing work that defined their caste, they still belong to that caste. It is more or less a system where, in ancient times, your work used to define your caste but now your caste defines you, no matter what you do at present. Eternal trap, you may say.--- August 28, 2006

== more European lineage ==

This is not supported by the reference provided:

:While at least [http://jorde-lab.genetics.utah.edu/elibrary/Bamshad_2001a.pdf one study] found some association between caste status and genetic markers seeming to indicate a more European lineage, no clear biological basis for caste distinctions has been conclusively revealed.

The study claims higher-caste people are more genetically similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans; it does not claim that the higher-caste people have European lineage.

In particular, if the current migrational model inspired by linguistics is correct and corresponds to the actual genetic ancestry of the population, East Europeans and higher-caste Indians have a shared ancestry somewhere in West Eurasia, but not in Europe. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 03:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

== Dalit and Religion ==

India is Democratic and Republic Country. Dalit is byproduct of religion. Any direct or indirect support to religion means support for untouchablity and Government and Head of the Government should not support the religion. The President of India and Prime minister of India shoud not support the religion directly or indirectly.

:Perhaps, but as per the [[Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#How_to_use_article_talk_pages|the talk page guidelines]], this is not the place to discuss it. --- [[User:Wonderstruck|Wonderstruck]] 09:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

== WHy is their skin color not mentioned? ==

Is it just a coiencidence that dalit undercaste status and their centuries oppression is closely linked to their skin color? Am I just imagining things? It's just random chance that they are darker, get treated badly, and the Rig Veda has references to these things only as "symbolism". Come on let's hear it. --[[User:Zaphnathpaaneah|Zaphnathpaaneah]] 06:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

That is an excellent question. I think maybe it is because the modern world has come to acknowledge racism as universally horrific in nature. If people were to begin associating the caste system with racism, I think international pressure would begin to build on India, and India would have to abanadon the caste system altogether in order to relieve that pressure, sort of how South Africa had to abandon apartheid in order to relieve the burden created by economic sanctions. [[User:Wandering Star|Wandering Star]] 15:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

:And that's why it's not in Wikipedia? Your answer is off-topic. [[User:Wonderstruck|Wonderstruck]] 09:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

A very interesting question. I do have some understanding of it though. True, in Vedic times, Aryan invaders wanted to differentiate dark skinned Indians from them and invented caste system. Though, it must be noted they were not downright racist as in Nazi extermination of Jews. It was not uncommon for Aryans to marry and have families with the natives. That initial caste system was a lose and simplistic one. It became more and more complex in the later stages where caste had more to do with the work than color of skin.

Though it was also true that people with fair skin usually used to be high castes. It is still true in modern India. Fair skinned brides or bridegrooms are eagerly sought after. There is a whole cosmetics industry that promises skin creams and products that make skin color lighter etc.

But coming back to the question of skin color and caste. It is true that most dalits (including tribal people) are very dark skinned. But North India maybe an exception where it is not so uncommon to see quite fair skinned dalits and darker skinned higher caste people. This confusing picture is due to caste system's intricate history and possibly marriages or illicit sexual relations with people belonging to different castes but their children becoming dalits because one of the partners might have been a dalit. Thus dalits are not genetically a race (but a motley of races and even ethnicities speaking different languages/ dialects) but still anti- dalit discrimination is racism as it has all the characteristics of racism and worse. Discrimination or even persecution of dalits is a form of an intricate racism.-- Ember Inuit.- August 28, 2006

I dont think the color is always related to the caste. In southern india you would find many people of darker skin even in the so called higher caste. [[User:Kaveri|Kaveri]] 17:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

:Yes, the color distinctions among Indians is not significant enough to warrant classification. Most Indians are light brown/dark brown kinned owing to the tropical climate. Those Indians in subtropical climates (such as Punjabis/Sindhis) are slightly fairer, but Dalits in Punjab are reasonably fair-skinned also.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 18:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

==Requested move==

[[Dalit (outcaste)]] → [[Dalit]] – This is certainly the most common use of this term. [[Dalit]] is currently a disambiguation page and should move to [[Dalit (disambiguation)]].

===Survey===

:''Add *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''' followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ''<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>

*'''Support''' per my nomination.&mdash;[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]^{([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])} 03:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

*'''Support''' Reasonable; although a dab header may be enough. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 22:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

*'''Support'''. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 03:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

*'''Support''' per nom. &mdash; [[User:Yom|<font color="green">ዮም</font>]] | '''[[Special:Emailuser/Yom|<font color="#FFD700">(Yom)</font>]]''' | [[User talk:Yom|<font color="red">Talk</font>]] • <small>[[Special:Contributions/Yom|contribs]] • [[WP:ETH|Ethiopia]]</small> 00:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

*'''Support''' A quick Google search doesn't seem to return anything other than this usage. [[User:Wonderstruck|Wonderstruck]] 09:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

===Discussion===

:''Add any additional comments''

Page has been moved per consensus above. -[[User:Goldom|Goldom]] [[User_talk:Goldom|‽‽‽]] [[Special:Contributions/Goldom|⁂]] 22:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

==Dalit Muslims and Christians==

:With deference to the "to-do list" item in the beginning of the talk page, I have added some stuff on the problems faced by Dalit Muslims and Dalit Christians.I have also added information about Bama Faustina, a Dalit Christian author who has criticized the caste practices of the Catholic Church in India.However, I suspect that vandals will revert it or something so I request serious editors to monitor/expand the tests.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 18:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

:I'll look into it.[[User:Bakasuprman|Bakaman]] <font color = "blue">_{[[User talk:Bakasuprman|Bakatalk]]}</font> 19:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

==More Cleanup and NPOV==

Cleaned up some sections after recent posts, including adding citations, spacing between periods and removing repetitive text. POV issues include unquoted language like "backward" and "slavery" which are either opinions or disputed. Also there are problems with balance, with the paragraphs on Muslim and Christian discrimination taking up half the text of the social background section. This implies that religious minorities make up half the the Dalit problem when it is generally understood that both it's origin and it's continued propagation in India largely comes from traditionalists in the Hindu majority. Need to expand the first half of the origins section to address this imbalance.

[[User:Gprimos1|Gprimos1]] 16:09, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

::Read [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:V]].As long as edit are verifiable any allusions are irrelevant.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 00:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

==Dalit Muslims and Christians Dispute==

"They also face economic and social hardships due to the discrimination by upper-caste priests and nuns."

This line is not justified based on the linked 1992 study. Let's review what the article actually says about the economic and social hardships:

Economic discrimination: There is not one word in this section referencing priests or nuns.

Educational discrimination: "A lack of economic resources of Christian dalits is one of the main reasons for the poor showing as seen from the survey. The attitude of priests and nuns in our Christian schools is not helpful to the cause of the dalit Christian students." This clearly indicates that the main problem is economic. A bad attitude is not enough to keep dalits from being educated.

Church Resources: "Non-dalit priests occupy 92.3 per cent of the offices in the five Catholic dioceses. The lack of dalit representation in the administrative and consultative bodies means lack of opportunity to present their cause at the decision-making level." This sentance does support the original assertion but the causation is indirect. It argues more that not enough Church resources are being allocated to assist dalits rather than that the church priests and nuns are directly responsible for their hardships.

In summary, the article seems to be saying more that priests and nuns are complicit in discrimination by the local Catholic population than that they are responsible. You may want to consider rewording this line to emphasize neglect more. I suggest the following:

"They also face economic and social hardships due to neglect by Church authorities, 92% of which are non-Dalit."

Alternatively, you could find a source which more directly supports the claim that church priests and nuns are responsible for dalit economic and social hardships. Even then, you may want to balance that by adding some more about some of the actions taken by Hindu religous athorities earlier in the article.

[[User:Gprimos1|Gprimos1]] 00:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

::Working on finding alternative source..[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]]

::Regarding Hindu religious authorities, could you elaborate?[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 00:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

==Vandalism==

This article has been heavily vandalised. I have no time to correct this at the moment, if anyone else does, please do. --[[User:Brideshead|Brideshead]] 19:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

==Link to a (biased?) source==

An interesting article that may have some reference material on the Dalit situation. However, because it doesn't seem to be NPOV, I'm not going to post it on the article. A more experienced Wikipedian can determine its appropriateness: http://www.newint.org/features/2005/07/01/combatting_caste/ --[[User:Earthsprite|<font color="#006400">Earth</font><font color="#400080">Sprite</font>^&infin;]] 09:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

==Distinct Ethnic?==

The article said Dalits of often thought of as a distinct ethnic group. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they just discriminated against because of their proffession? And to raise another issue, How can they be consider related to East Asian in the south when their were no east East Asian in the south? Someone should cite this. [[User:CanCanDuo|CanCanDuo]] 22:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)