Talk:Bharatanatyam: Difference between revisions

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{{Talk header}}

As a courtesy for other editors, it is a Wikipedia guideline to [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|sign]] your [[Help:Talk page|talk page]] and [[Help:Talk_page#User_talk_pages|user talk page]] posts. To do so simply add four [[tilde]]s (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) at the end of your comments and your user name or IP address and the date will be automatically added along with a [[timestamp]]. Signing your comments helps people to find out who said something and provides them with a link to your user/talk page (for further discussion). For further info read [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines]]. Thank you. Put the latest comments below previous ones. -- [[User:Jeandré|Jeandré]], 2006-12-21[[User talk:Jeandré|t]]12:03z

{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|1=

{{WikiProject India |importance=Top |karnataka=yes |karnataka-importance=High |tamilnadu=yes |tamilnadu-importance=Top}}

{{WP India|class=|importance=}}

{{WikiProject Dance|importance=High}}

{{WikiProject Hinduism|importance=Mid}}

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{{WikiProject Visual arts }}

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==Common spellings==

{{User:MiszaBot/config

Here is a result of Google searches for common misspellings of the name. This will be useful if in future there's a debate on whether this article needs to be redirected to any other spelling. Also if any other titles need to be redirected to this article. Search done on Aug 6. [[User:Jay|Jay]] 16:46, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

|archiveheader = {{Talk archive}}

<table>

|algo = old(365d)

<tr><td>"bharata natyam" <td align="right"> 20,100

|maxarchivesize = 100K

<tr><td>&nbsp;bharatanatyam <td align="right"> 17,300

|minthreadsleft = 5

<tr><td>&nbsp; bharathanatyam <td align="right"> 8,520

|minthreadstoarchive = 1

<tr><td>&nbsp; bharatnatyam <td align="right"> 7,280

|counter = 2

<tr><td>"bharat natyam" <td align="right"> 3,700

|archive = Talk:Bharatanatyam/Archive %(counter)d

<tr><td>"bharatha natyam" <td align="right"> 3,210

}}

<tr><td>&nbsp; bharathnatyam <td align="right"> 428

<tr><td>"bharata nathyam" <td align="right"> 94

<tr><td>"bharath natyam" <td align="right"> 89

<tr><td>"bharatha nathyam" <td align="right"> 38

<tr><td>"bharat nathyam" <td align="right"> 19

<tr><td>&nbsp; bharatanathyam <td align="right"> 14

<tr><td>&nbsp; bharathanathyam <td align="right"> 5

<tr><td>&nbsp; bharatnathyam <td align="right"> 4

</table>

Interesting to note that 18 months later, google finds about ten times as many pages. A striking indication of the growth of the Internet within certain communities. [[User:80.0.184.11|80.0.184.11]] 01:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

----

Yahoo search for

<table>

<tr><td>&nbsp; bharatnatyam <td align="right"> 54,600

<tr><td>&nbsp; "bharata natyam" <td align="right"> 35,600

<tr><td>&nbsp; bharatanatyam <td align="right"> 33,300

<tr><td>&nbsp; bharathanatyam <td align="right"> 26,400

</table>

{{unsigned2|2004-10-17t03:30:02z|219.65.124.86}}

== Medha Hari ==

Never heard of this name. Also, why this ugly/advertising image is added here? --[[User:Rrjanbiah|Rrjanbiah]] 09:55, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

:Dear Rrjanbiah,

:You need to learn more about the contemporary Bharatanatyam. And the picture is not at all ugly. -- [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=219.65.124.189 219.65.124.189] 10:10, 8 Nov 2004

But, it definitely looks like a [[Wikipedia:Spam|WikiSpam]]. The content of the articles and the pages linked to it [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Medha_Hari] seems to confirm that. --[[User:Rrjanbiah|Rrjanbiah]] 07:13, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Rrjanbiah,|Medha Hari web site pages provide non-commercial information for FREE

[[User:Serge56|Serge56]]

Hi Rrjanbiah! I looked in major directories (Open Directory, Looksmart, etc) and Medha Hari is listed there. Keep yourself updated.

[[User:Geosammie|Geosammie]] 04:20, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Its not about being listed on many pages. I am a dancer myself and I looked at the pictures of the dancer. Sorry to say, I did not find them to be graceful or accurate especially the postures of the hips.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:165.91.233.193|165.91.233.193]] ([[User talk:165.91.233.193|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/165.91.233.193|contribs]]) 2006-01-30t17:04:17z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

REPLY TO THE ABOVE:

If you are a dancer, I want to see YOUR "graceful lines". I think you are just jealous of how graceful Medha Hari looks.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Prabhujee|Prabhujee]] ([[User talk:Prabhujee|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prabhujee|contribs]]) 2006-02-16t05:05:45z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

REPLY TO MEDHA HARI ISSUE:

The issue is not whether Meda Hari is graceful or not. The issue is whether she is a great enough dancer to be listed on Wikipedia as an authority on the subject. I do not even know who Medha Hari is. However, I do not believe that Rukmini Devi and her belong on the same page, regardless of the contributions Meda Hari has made. Any reference to Meda Hari is just pure commercialism, and not necessary for a general background article.

== From Tamil Nadu? ==

Is Bharatanatyam orginated from Tamil Nadu? Someone at [[Tamil people]] added so. --[[User:Rrjanbiah|Rrjanbiah]] 10:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

:Dear Rrjanbiah,

:It appears that you are not familiar with Bharatanatyam at all - [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=219.65.124.189 219.65.124.189] 10:07, 8 Nov 2004

::AFAIK, Bharathanatyam is a Telugu devadasi dance which was commercialized by brahmins like Rukmani Devi. But, neither this article nor any other artcile seems to say that it is Tamilians' dance. --[[User:Rrjanbiah|Rrjanbiah]] 07:28, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

:::BharatanATya is a dance form of Karnataka. the very fact that it is Karnatik Music to which this dance form is performed proves this fact. Karnataka music or Carnatic music was structured by Sri Purandara Dasa, the great saint from Karnataka. It is to this structured and sophisticated musical form that BharatanATya is performed. Anyway, there is ABSOLUTELY no proof to the claim that it originated in TamilNadu. Wikipedia is not your DinaMani or Dinamalar or Nakkeeran to print/type anything and everything you like. Keep all your self advancing theories to your tabloids and your textbooks. Changing it.{{unsigned2|2006-01-25t07:31:55z|67.174.232.187}}

:::Moreover, even history records the fact that the Kannada Hoysala queen, Shantala/Shantale was an acknowledged expert of this art long before Devadasis started performing in Andhra temples or Krishna and Rukmini brought it to the TN stage.{{unsigned2|2006-01-25t07:34:54z|67.174.232.187}}

----

Partisan advertisement and promotional campaign on behalf of medha hari is clearly visible by the link and image of medha hari being put up on the page. In order that neutrality is attained such partisan publicity should not be overlooked. Is wikipedia an advertising platform ? [[User:Water Fish|Water Fish]] 11:37, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

--

This is not medha hari's advertising page!!!!!!!!<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:67.191.160.84|67.191.160.84]] ([[User talk:67.191.160.84|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/67.191.160.84|contribs]]){{#if:2006-12-20t19:42:48z|&#32;2006-12-20t19:42:48z|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

For Rrjanbiah: you are Telugu, aren't you? - there is no place for nationalism on Wikipedia

For Water Fish:

I do not perceive adding relevant content as SPAM.

External links are supported for enriching elements (such as the multimedia content).

Before deleting anything, you better think of the benefit of the reader: will the photo be a valuable illustration? Will external links be a valuable extention of Wikipedia? --[[User:RalphWWW]]

I agree with Ralph

[[User:Serge56|Serge56]]

Almost all the articles and books I have read say it is from Thanjavur in Tamil Nadu. A simple google search shows a number of pages. Have to revert. I think this article from The Hindu should seal it.

http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mp/2003/06/25/stories/2003062500230100.htm

Please stop reverting...

- [[User:Cribananda|Cribananda]] 07:39, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

this article from Hindu seals *nothing*. It does not speak a single word about Bharatanatya's origins. And even if it did, the author of that article is far from the last word on the subject. STOP MAKING ARBITRARY CLAIMS AND PASSING OFF SPURIOUS LINKS AS PROOF!!. reverting it.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:67.174.232.187|67.174.232.187]] ([[User talk:67.174.232.187|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/67.174.232.187|contribs]]) 2006-01-25t08:47:45z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

==Advertisement vandalism==

RE: SECTION ON BHARATA NATYAM SCHOOLS IN THE US

Hello lovers of Bharata Natyam. I added a section on the ___location of dance schools in the US because I thought it would be useful for people to know where they are. Many times, the public at large is completely unaware of the existence of such schools in the area. This would serve the local community as well as the Indian community. I hope fellow Wikipedians don't mind. --[[User:TxLSR|TxLSR]] 04:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

*Hi, Water Fish and Rrjanbiah. I do not understand why you add external links to other Wikipedia articles but at the same time you are only so good as to indiscriminately erase all external links from the Bharatanatyam article.

I personally added the Mudras.

** It has nothing to with 'advertising'

** It has nothing to do with Medha Hari and your hatred towards her

I added the link because most mudras on that site are given short descriptions and photos.

<tt>If you continue to erase all the external links indiscriminately (that's vandalism), I will complain to the admins.</tt>

[[User:Bharata natyam|Bharata natyam]] 14:40, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hi, 219.65.124.*** also called as [[User:Geosammie]], also called as [[User:Serge56]] also called as [[User:RalphWWW]]. It is incredible to make three user pages within a span of 24 hours. People in the wikipedia knows how vandals operate. One is allowed to have multiple id but not to lobby for their own views or advertisement.

By definition, linking to webpages devoted to the promotion of a single dancer is spam. It is surely not helpful and is definitely advertisement. Moreover the wikipedia gives bibliography to textbooks dealing with topics. These <b>Reference textbooks</b> are not spam, they are treatise on a subject.

listing on open directory or Looksmart page or Google and professional directories like Narthaki.com, can be done, it is never taken as a criterion to validate authenticity or to be listed on an encyclopaedia. Wikipedia is well aware of such acts by people to legitimise their personal views.

Besides being featured 3 or more times in a newspaper or television is not a criterion to be on an encyclopedia. Many major newspapers and TV channels throughout the world promote young dancers by writing and presenting about them more than one time. if one was to make encyclopedia article about all of them, then they do not even qualify half as much as the virtuosos from conservatories around the world. But wikipedia does not entertain articles even about those virtuosos from great universities.

Medha Hari is probably a young dancer, and definitely not a major dancer. If that is enough criterion to be written about on the wikipedia, then in that case every music student in [[Julliard School]] and music conservatories and ballets would have to be written about, and that is definitely not meant for the wikipedia. [[User:Water Fish|Water Fish]] 06:25, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Deleting other users' comments is inappropriate.

Re: "linking to webpages devoted to the promotion of a single dancer is spam"

I guess it is not "promotion": the first link gives an extended overview of the subject matter, and the second link provides the free video illustrations to the article.

I welcome [[User:Water Fish|Water Fish]] to list other 13-year-old Bharatanatyam "virtuosos from conservatories around the world" if he cares to find any: with the details info on their style and online videos.

I would like to say that [[User:Water Fish|Water Fish]] is not familiar with the topic.

The classical dance column in the national newspaper the Hindu is similar to the Dance Magazine. Any 13-year-old dancer who is reviewed 3 times in the Dance Magazine would be worthy of being listed on Wikipedia. -- [[User:JuliaJ|JuliaJ]] 09:06, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

:'''says who?? says who?? says who??'''<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:209.180.28.6|209.180.28.6]] ([[User talk:209.180.28.6|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/209.180.28.6|contribs]]) 2006-01-25t23:47:41z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

----

There are several or should I say numerous young people far younger than age of 13 who are virtuosos. A lot of the students in [[Julliard School]] are below 8 and 9 years old. Several articles about these kids come in the New York Times and other prominent newspapers around the world. To write article in an encyclopedia about a person, the person has not only to be a virtuoso but also stand the test of time. That is the reason one does not find articles written about just anybody who is famous. An encyclopedia article is written about a person who retains brilliance over a long time. If a young talent lasts for several decades with the same brilliance then an article could be written about that person. Just being a prodigy does not qualify. One needs to retain that virtuosity for decades before receiving lasting acclaim.

The wikipedia has artilce about prodigies who retained brilliance over decades. Violinists like [[Yehudi Menuhin]] were prodigies. Infact Yehudi Menuhin gave his first performance when he was 7 years old. But his entry into an encyclopedia was made only after several decades of continious performance. [[User:Water Fish|Water Fish]] 11:41, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Promoting young artists is good but refering to them as iconic dancers is Pov. If a picture of ones close ones is put up then it should only be described as a dancer without giving name and without presenting that person as a prominent artist, because that comes about after decades of consistent brilliance. [[User:Water Fish|Water Fish]] 11:41, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

*It is disputable whether "decades of consistent brilliance" are required for one to be recognized as a virtuoso and a prominent dancer. Dancers, after the "decades of consistent brilliance", usually leave the stage, and can no longer be referred to as dancers but as dance teachers and "past celebrities".

**You cannot compare western ballet dancers with Bharatanatyam dancers. Bharatanatyam is a spiritual discipline, and has nothing to do with ballet, frankly speaking.

**As for "a prominent artist", one has to look at the list of the artiste's awards, performances, and public recognition in general. If nobody can recognize the name of Yehudi Menuhin in India, likewise, very few may be familiar with the names of the Indian Bharatanatyam prominent artistes.

***:'''says who?? says who?? says who??''' ...Medha Hari is not well known even in India. why well known, she is not even known as an artist. 99 out of 100 people wouldnt even have heard her name...this is nothing by cheap and blatant advertisement<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:67.174.232.187|67.174.232.187]] ([[User talk:67.174.232.187|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/67.174.232.187|contribs]]) 2006-01-26t03:52:58z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

:Regarding "99 out of 100 people wouldnt even have heard her name", I have to say that 9 of 16 people whom I know know some things about Bharatanatyam DO KNOW MEDHA HARI as an excellent dancer. Of course, if by those "99 out of 100 people" was meant a group of Texas cowboys who spent most of their lives in bars...<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Prabhujee|Prabhujee]] ([[User talk:Prabhujee|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prabhujee|contribs]]) 2006-02-16t05:03:05z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

[[User:Thegist|Thegist]] 04:24, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== Headline text ==

== Headline text ==

== Headline text ==

==Comments moved from [[WP:RFPP]]==

Under attack from users Water Fish and Rrjanbiah who indiscriminately erase (but do not add anything) <b>all external links section<b>. The external links contain highly relevant, unique and valuable resources (text, photo and web video). ----[[Special:Contributions/Bharata natyam|Bharata natyam]] 20:27, 15 Nov 2004

The so called <b>[[Bharatanatyam#External links|Bharatanatyam external links]]</b> and <b>[[Bharatanatyam#Online multimedia resources|Bharatanatyam resources]]</b> are advertisement and partisan promotion of a dancer named [[Medha Hari]]. Such spam cannot be used as a link in the wikipedia. The wikipedia is not a platform for advertisement and promotions. The purpose of these links is to promote the sales of cds and a young performer who is not even a major dancer.

the [[Special:Whatlinkshere/Medha Hari|inward links to page Medha hari]] has probably been created by the same author, it is very easy to create several links to a spam on the wikipedia. One should not be deceived by them.

the user id [[User:RalphWWW]], [[User:Geosammie]], [[User:Serge56]] [[User:JuliaJ]], [[User:Thegist]], [[User:Bharata natyam]] were all created since 13th november 2004. It seems they are all created by the same person who has done considerable vandalism from 219.65.124.***;

By definition, linking to webpages devoted to the promotion of a single dancer is spam. It is surely not helpful and is definitely advertisement. Moreover the wikipedia gives bibliography to textbooks dealing with topics. These <b>Reference textbooks</b> are not spam, they are treatise on a subject.

listing on open directory or Looksmart page or Google and professional directories like Narthaki.com, can be done, it is never taken as a criterion to validate authenticity or to be listed on an encyclopaedia. Wikipedia is well aware of such acts by people to legitimise their personal views. [[User:Water Fish|Water Fish]] 19:48, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

**

Rrjanbiah/Water Fish,

why do you delete wholesale <b>the whole secion<b> of the external links? <b>Most of these links

have nothing to do with Medha Hari.<b>

I personally added a link to the <b>Mudra's web site<b> that you erased.

So, what is the point?

The point is that Rrjanbiah-Water Fish erases everything wholesale.

Myself, I never 'deleted the reference texts'.

[[User:Bharata natyam|Bharata natyam]] 02:59, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

{|

|-

| width=150px bgcolor=red|Hey, [[User:Water Fish]],[[User:Rrjanbiah]] || width=500px bgcolor=white|did you realize that 13th november was because normal people, who work on weekdays, may like to browse the Web on weekends????

|}

[[User:Serge56|Serge56]] 04:36, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

==Graphics==

Oh, my dear! Does anybody know when [[User:Rrjanbiah|Rrjanbiah]] is going learn how to insert a picture without distorting the aspect ratio so that the picture looks rather ugly? :-)

Or is he doing it on purpose?

Does anybody find the other image (screenshot of thumbnails) to be appropriate here?

I need a big magnifying glass to see anything!

Cheers!

[[User:217.172.70.182|217.172.70.182]] 13:06, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

:Hey,

:I edited this page, Medha Hari's picture is on this once, but I put photos of some well known dancers including Mahalakshmi and G.Narerndran.

:gitac2s{{unsigned|Kanyamanoj|2005-12-04t04:14:06z}}

DOES ANYONE HAVE PICTURES OF HASTA MUDRAS TO POST? IT WILL BE VERY VALUABLE FOR ANYONE JUST STARTING TO LEARN DANCE. --[[User:TxLSR|TxLSR]] 04:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

==Tagging==

The author is blatantly sticking to his cooked up theories and more cheeky, is accusing me of vandalism. I am new to wiki and didnt know of the talk page when i made my first few edits. Later I have discussed my concerns on the talk page too...but have met with stubborn silence. Hence tagging this page.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:67.174.232.187|67.174.232.187]] ([[User talk:67.174.232.187|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/67.174.232.187|contribs]]) 2006-01-26t03:59:29z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

Issue being discussed

*the author provides spurious 'proof' in the name of two links to advance his baseless argument tha BN originated in TN. my concerns vis a vis this so called 'proof' or links which supposedly 'seal' the deal are somewhere below on this page.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:67.174.232.187|67.174.232.187]] ([[User talk:67.174.232.187|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/67.174.232.187|contribs]]) 2006-01-26t04:03:54z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

===VANDALISM!!!===

STOP IT!!! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!! ****PROVE**** TO ME BN ORIGINATED IN TN...I DONT CARE FOR "ALL THE BOOKS" U READ!!! THE LINK YOU HAVE GIVEN IS BULLSHIT!!! YES BULLSHIT!!! WIKI IS NOT YOUR PRIVATE BATHROOM TO ATTRIBUTE EVERYTHING THAT IS GOOD TO TAMIL/TAMILIANS/TAMILNADU!!!

THE LINK THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN AND WHICH YOU SAY 'SEALS' THE MATTER, DOESNT SPEAK A WORD ABOUT BN'S ORIGINS!!! I AM REVERTING THIS AND IF YOU TELL ME ITS VANDALISM AM GOING TO THE ADMINS!!!

WHEN I CHANGED IT THE FIRS TIME U SAID I HAVE TO DISCUSS IT IN THE TALK PAGE BEFORE I REVERT....THEN I CAME AND POSTED IN THE TALK PAGE TOO. NO REPLY FROM YOU...THEN I CHANGED THE ARTICLE AND YOU COME AND TELL ME ITS VANDALISM!!! GO TAKE A JUMP!!<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:67.174.232.187|67.174.232.187]] ([[User talk:67.174.232.187|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/67.174.232.187|contribs]]) 2006-01-25t10:14:59z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

== Neutral pov ==

I'm going to work on moving this article to a neutral point of view. Any help is appreciated. [[User:Cribananda|Cribananda]] 23:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

== It IS from Tamil Nadu and here are the links ==

I hope the bbc and The Hindu websites are proof enough, and that this will seal the controversy. Before reverting PLEASE CITE YOUR SOURCE. I'm getting tired of this...

http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mp/2003/06/25/stories/2003062500230100.htm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/shropshire/features/2003/03/annapurna_dance_03.shtml#theorigin

[[User:Cribananda|Cribananda]] 07:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

:''like the other user says, the hindu article does not speak abou BN's origins at all. so dont cite that for reference. it does not mean anything.

:as for the bbc article, it only talks about some Lord Shiva/cosmic dance legend/mythology. Legend and mythology isnt exactly history and is far from a verifiable fact. India is a land of a zillion legends and unending mythology....every state/city/town/village has its own legends. So dont confuse issues to suit your convenience.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:209.180.28.6|209.180.28.6]] ([[User talk:209.180.28.6|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/209.180.28.6|contribs]]) 2006-01-25t17:29:04z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

:also the bbc article only says that the original manual is *NOW* in tanjore. it doesnt mean it was written in tanjore. and even if a manual is written in tanjore doesnt mean the art form should have originated there. and there is not way to say if that was the only copy of the manual that ever was written or existed...several such manuals might have been written in different places across india and they might just have been lost.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:209.180.28.6|209.180.28.6]] ([[User talk:209.180.28.6|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/209.180.28.6|contribs]]) 2006-01-25t17:32:20z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

:'''Remove that claim.''' if you persist with your unsubstantiated claims that will give the licence to anybody to make any unsubstantiated claims...and when they do that if you complain of vandalism, that i should say is cheeky...not to mention, juvenile.''<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:209.180.28.6|209.180.28.6]] ([[User talk:209.180.28.6|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/209.180.28.6|contribs]]) 2006-01-25t17:29:04z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

Bharatanatyam is real.

Anyone in south india and sri lanka can tell this.

It is very famous.

I cannot cite sources as it is a local tradition,

If anyone feels it is a hoax,they should come to south india.

Ask anyone from south india ,they would have seen bharathanatyam.

It is a very difficult dance to perform.

[[User:Pojojo|Pojojo]] 05:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

== Degree Program in Bharatanatyam? ==

A degree programme for Indian dance (Bharatanatyam) has been created by the Alagappa Performing Arts Academy (APAA) of California, USA and the Alagappa University, Karaikudi, India. The courses offered include: Certificate in Bharatanatyam (one-year programme), Associate Degree in Bharatanatyam (Two-year programme), Diploma in Bharatanatyam (three-year programme) and B.A. degree in Bharatanatyam (four-year programme).

For more info, contact: [e-mail],More info on the degree programme is available at http://www.bharathanatyamonline.com.

:This sounds a LOT like an advertisement for the college that offers a degree in Bharatanatyam. I propose changing the section to simply say "The popularity of Bharatanatyam is evident from the fact that some universities even offer full degree programs in it."[[User:Adityan|Adityan]] 18:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I think we have to request the Alagappa Performing Arts Academy to stop their commerical spam on Wikipedia.

[[User:Prabhujee|Prabhujee]] 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

== Slapping a hoax tag on a page is not an appropriate action because you disagree with one statement on it ==

<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:80.0.184.11|80.0.184.11]] ([[User talk:80.0.184.11|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/80.0.184.11|contribs]]) 2006-02-06t01:33:53z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

==Languages Used==

bharatanatya is performed to karnatic(karnataka) music...and karnatic music was formulated and given a shape/grammar/syntax by the great Kannada saint and Father of Indian Classical Music, Shri. Puranadara Dasa...and Purandara Dasa composed *solely* in Kannada....<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:67.174.232.187|67.174.232.187]] ([[User talk:67.174.232.187|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/67.174.232.187|contribs]]) 2006-02-09t08:18:18z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

STOP MAKING BASELESS CLAIMS IN FAVOUR OF TAMIL...

while i do not disagree that tamil is also one of the languages used in bharatanatya, the claim that tamil is the language that is 'predominantly' used is probablly incorrect!! Avoid making incorrect claims... (Provide citations as needed)<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:69.107.97.37|69.107.97.37]] ([[User talk:69.107.97.37|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/69.107.97.37|contribs]]) 2006-09-22t15:56:35z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

== I guess anyone would like to take credit for this ancient art ==

For the past 20 years i always taught Bharatanatyam was one of Thamils

greatest cultural contribution to Indian culture. I guess nationalism,or better southern nationalism, wins.

http://www.tamilnation.org/culture/dance/index.htm <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:211.28.214.94|211.28.214.94]] ([[User talk:211.28.214.94|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/211.28.214.94|contribs]]) 2006-03-07t10:27:49z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

==My reverts==

I would like to know what commends [[:Image:Bharata Natyam 3.jpg|this]] image to its partisans. Some poster painter's garish folly, it arguably depicts an acrobat rather than a dancer. Look at the graceless contortion of the right leg. Is there any Bharatanatyam ''bangima'' which requires the knee to be placed on the ground and the foot raised into the air?? Such crap. Please do not revert. [[User:ImpuMozhi|ImpuMozhi]] 12:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

:Dear ImpuMozhi, regarding Bharatanatyam ''bangima'', I would like to note that this particular image is valuable as it illustrates the particularities of the Mellatur (Mangudi) style of Bharatanatyam. You cannot expect everyone to display the Kalakshetra-style postures.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:SadirAttam|SadirAttam]] ([[User talk:SadirAttam|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SadirAttam|contribs]]) 2006-05-23t00:56:46z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

::Far too many images, looks like spamming of one URL; I've removed the majority -- [[User:Samir_(The_Scope)|'''Samir''' <small>धर्म</small>]] 00:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

==Regarding Bharata Natayam and Tamil Nadu==

Is there a reason why you keep taking Tamil Nadu out of this article? Kuchipuddi is the dance of Andra Pradesh, Mohiniattam and Katha Kali are the dances of Kerala, and Bharata Natayam is the dance of Tamil Nadu. Is that so hard to comprehend? All the description of the other Classical dances of India explain what state it is from. You make it seem like it is an offence to post that its origins have its roots from Tamil Nadu. Come on now...

[[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 00:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

----

Here are a list of Classical dances of India which mention the state it came from.

[[Kathakali]] (Malayalam:കഥകളി ) is a form of Indian dance-drama. It originated in the Indian state of Kerala during the [17th]<br> century C.E.

[[Kuchipudi]] (కుచిపుడి) is a classical dance form from Andhra Pradesh, a state of South India.

[[Manipuri]] dance is one of the major Indian classical dance forms. It originates from Manipur, a state in north-eastern India

[[Mohiniaattam]] (also spelled as mohiniattam or mohiniyattam; Malayalam: മോഹിനിയാട്ടം) is a traditional South Indian dance form from<br> Kerala, India.

[[Odissi]] The classical dance style of Orissa - the land of temples, the land of sculptures.

[[Sattriya dance]] or Sattriya Nritya is one among the eight principal classical dance traditions of India. The others are<br> Bharatanatyam, Kathakali, Mohini Attam, Kuchipudi, Odissi, Kathak and Manipuri. The dance has its origin in Assam.

Please keep POVs (points of views) outside of wikipedia. Thank you.

==Regarding Tamil and Sanskrit in Bharata Natyam==

In the first place I do not know why the languages would have to be reverted. Secondly, Tamil was put before Sanskrit on the page since it is the indiguous language of Tamil Nadu. Sanskrit was later introduced to Southern India and is not indigenous to the region. At the same token of resepect, I am in no way putting Sanskrit down since it is a classical language. Much Regards.

[[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 03:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

::I have re-arranged the languages as per English alphabetical order.Pls see [[Carnatic Music]] for the order in which scripts are written.-[[User:Bharatveer|Bharatveer]] 04:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

There have been some disputes between those who are against or for Tamil. Also, there have been a couple of people going to the extent to remove the Tamil script and even the place name of Tamil Nadu off this page. But, since you have stated that you are by arranging the scripts in alphabetical order and if that is a wikipedia procedure, then that is fine by me. By the way, please take a look at [[Kathakali]] and [[Mohiniaattam]]. I have added Sanskrit to both those pages too. Regards.

[[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 05:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

::Much appreciated.-[[User:Bharatveer|Bharatveer]] 06:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[[Carnatic Music]] is India-wide, [[Bharatanatyam]] is not. --[[User:Masatran|Masatran]] 03:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

==Censoring of quotes from original texts (Abhinayadarpanam, etc)==

I am amazed that the Vandals of Wikipedia believe that they have the right to alter the origital texts. If a text mentions it that a dancer should "have round breasts" (and not "pendant breasts"), no vandals have the right to edit it even if their wives have drooping breasts.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Natyadharmi|Natyadharmi]] ([[User talk:Natyadharmi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Natyadharmi|contribs]]) 2006-12-14t02:13:18z (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

----

If you do not want this text altered by other users, then please quote the source where you got the information which includes that a dancer should "have well rounded breasts" otherwise this will be taken as a perverted form of Vandalism. Also, please refrain from personal attacks as per Wikipedia policy. Thank you. -- [[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 03:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

==Yaksagana: Kannada Classical Dance==

Hello all,

I have just created a page for the Kannada Classical Dance called [[Yaksagana]]. Please feel free to contribute more to that page. Also added to Bharatanatyam page in the ''See Also'' section are the Telugu, Kannada, and Malayalam classical dances. Thank you.

[[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 07:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

== External links ==

Please note that Wikipedia articles should not link to:

#personal websites, e.g. sites with ~user in the URL

#sites hosted on free hosting services such as geocities

#commercial sites which sell any product, including videos, even if they have free trailers

I ask [[User:Santap|SAntap]] to please stop reverting my edits and FIND BETTER EXTERNAL LINKS!!! [[User:A Ramachandran|A Ramachandran]] 11:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:Since multiple editors keep restoring commercial and other inappropriate links, I've brought the situation to the attention of WikiProject Spam [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#Bharatanatyam here]. Please note that removing the tag while the isssue is still under dispute is vandalism. Also note that calling my [[WP:AGF|good faith]] attempts to remove inappropriate links "vandalism" is a violation of the [[WP:NPA|no personal attacks policy]]. Any further actions of this sort will result in warnings and reports, potentially leading to blocks. Don't do it. [[User:A Ramachandran|A Ramachandran]] 15:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

::Comments:

::*Deleting inappropriate links in accordance with Wikipedia policies and guidelines is never a personal attack and never vandalism. Making false accusations of either, however, can get users sanctioned.

::*[[User:A Ramachandran|A Ramachandran]] has removed a number of inappropriate links. A few of the most flagrant examples:

::**Links to video stores -- free trailers are never a reason to do this.

::**Links to dancers' promotional pages

::**A link to webvoter.net -- for Pete's sake, this is an encyclopedia.

::**One site accused of copyright violations by another editor: site.voila.fr/bharatanatyam-dance

::Take a look at some of Wikipedia's rules.

::*[[WP:EL|External Links Guideline]], especially these sections:

::**From the introduction:

::***''"Some external links are welcome (see [[WP:EL#What should be linked|"What should be linked"]], below), but it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a comprehensive list of external links related to each topic. No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justified."''

::**[[WP:EL#Links normally to be avoided|"Links normally to be avoided"]] -- here are just a few excerpts:

::***''"Links mainly intended to promote a website."''

::***''"Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a [[Featured article]]."''

::***''"Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services."''

::***''"Links to blogs and personal webpages, except those written by a recognized authority."''

::**[[WP:EL#Advertising and conflicts of interest|"Advertising and conflicts of interest"]]:

::***''You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked."''

::**[[WP:EL#Copyright|"Copyright"]]:

::***''"If you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of [[contributory infringement]] in the United States ([http://www.law.uh.edu/faculty/cjoyce/copyright/release10/IntRes.html Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry]). Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors."''

::*[[WP:NOT|"What Wikipedia is Not" Policy]] -- especially these sections:

::**[[WP:NOT#SOAP|"Wikipedia is Not a Soapbox"]]:

::***''"Wikipedia is not a soapbox or a vehicle for propaganda and advertising."''

::**[[WP:NOT#MIRROR|"Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files"]]

::*[[WP:SPAM|Spam Guideline]]:

::**''"Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam."''

::*[[WP:COI|Conflict of Interest Guideline]]:

::**''"avoid linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your corporation in other articles (see [[Wikipedia:Spam]])."''

::*[[WP:RS|Reliable Sources Guideline]]

::A better place for many of these links is the [[Open Directory Project]] (a.k.a. [http://dmoz.org/ Dmoz]]). This article is already linked to the appropriate Dmoz page. Links to Dmoz are strongly encouraged as an alternative to adding lots of inapprpriate links to Wikipedia; see [[WP:EL#What should be linked|"What should be linked"]] for more about this.

::Please let [[User:A Ramachandran|A Ramachandran]] and other [[WP:WPSPAM|WikiProject Spam volunteers]] continue their work unhindered. --[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 18:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Hello. I believe that, as long as a link is VALUABLE (i.e. highly relevant and providing useful additional info) and IS NOT commercial (i.e. they don't sell anything), it does not matter if the link is hosted on a free server or paid, geocities on aol. It is ridiculous!

:::Please stop the covering the vandalism with a pretext of fighting "spam"!

:::[[User:Bilylivka|Bilylivka]] 03:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

::::P.S. It is outrageous that some idiots think they can use "for Pete's sake, this is an encyclopedia" as a valid argument to continue their vandalism!!!

::::[[User:Bilylivka|Bilylivka]] 03:29, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::[[User:Bilylivka|Bilylivka]], you are absolutely right -- were I vandalizing, ''"for Pete's sake, this is an encyclopedia"'' would be a pretty poor argument for doing so!

:::::For that matter, it wasn't a very good argument for deleting the webvoter.net link either, so it's a good thing I also cited the policies and guidelines above very extensively. I know you're brand-new today to Wikipedia, so you may wish to read them closely, especially the External Links Guideline. Once you've read over them, I think you'll understand why these links don't meet the rules.

:::::In the meantime, know that folks take vandalism and accusations of vandalism very seriously on Wikipedia -- here's what the [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|No Personal Attacks]] Policy says:

:::::*''"A comment in an edit history such as "reverting vandalism" is not a personal attack if it's concerned with clear vandalism, although otherwise it is. "Vandalism" imputes bad intentions and bad motives to the person accused. If the edit that is being reverted could be interpreted as a good-faith edit, then don't label it as vandalism. See [[Wikipedia:Vandalism]] for what is and isn't vandalism."''

:::::Also: once in a while calling another editor such as myself an "idiot" is probably not officially a "personal attack" but it ''is'' [[WP:CIVIL|frowned upon]]. (As it happens, I've occasionally been called an idiot by colleagues, so at least you have some company.)

:::::Welcome to Wikipedia and I hope you will enjoy editing here. Regards, --[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 04:07, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear A.B. & Ramachandran,

Please read the External Links Guideline once again. I do not know if you misinterpret them intentionally or unintentionally (maybe you do not understand the English language well?).

[[User:Toko99|Toko99]] 02:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

:See reply on [[User talk:Toko99|your talk page]]. Why don't you respond below where the urls are reasons why they are inappropriate are listed? If you understand better than we do, then please explain for each URL you want to include why it is not commercial, etc.? [[User:A Ramachandran|A Ramachandran]] 02:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

:: Hi, A Ramachandran & A.B.! :-) I do not understand why you approve one geocities link but are so much against in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharatanatyam/bharatanatyam.html . This page, indeed, cannot be treated as "personal" as has nothing to do with Medha Hari (no links to her, etc.).

:: [[User:Wikisvenska|Wikisvenska]] 02:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

For starters the website is not universally accessible and contains rich media, which not everyone can access. The fact that te whole thing is littered with images doesn't help things - I have a fast connection, good computer, and it froze my browser while loading. [[User:Sfacets|Sfacets]] 02:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

::[[User:Wikisvenska|Wikisvenska]], you raised some of the same questions below as well. I will answer you there. --[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 02:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

== Order of standard appendices ==

There seems to be some confusion and edit warring going on over the order of appendices in this article. Per [[Wikipedia:Guide to layout#Standard appendices and descriptions]], the order should be:

#Quotations (deprecated)

#See also

#Notes

#References (or combined with "Notes" into Notes and references)

#Further reading (or Bibliography)

#External links

I have corrected the article to follow the guideline. Further discussion here is welcome, of course. --&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype">[[User talk:Satori Son|<b>Satori Son</b>]]</span> 18:20, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

:I have fixed this once again. The above policy is unambiguous and is to be followed on all articles. --&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype">[[User talk:Satori Son|<b>Satori Son</b>]]</span> 13:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

== POVs, SPAM, and Vandalsim ==

As a reminder to all, please refrain from posting POVs and SPAM on this site. This can also consistute to vandalism. Furthermore there has been sock puppetry going on in this section. Sock puppetry is when a user uses multiple usernames to vandalize this site. The recent actions of these particular users have been reported to Administration. As per procedure I will not name the users on this talk page. Thank you.

[[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 04:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Image use policy|Image use policy]] ==

Hi. I just removed two images with digital watermarks:

*[[:Image:Bharatanatyam_3.jpg]]

*[[:Image:bharatanatyam_17.jpg]]

Perhaps there are other images without watermarks in Wikipedia's image files that could be used here. --[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 04:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

:These images are excellent, and the watermarks ARE acceptable on Wiki.

:[[User:Bilylivka|Bilylivka]] 03:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

::Neither you nor I are the decision-makers as to what's acceptable in this case -- Wikipedia policy is. Here's what Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Image use policy|Image Use Policy]] says:

::*''"This page is an official policy on the English Wikipedia. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow."''

::*''"Also, user-created images may not be [[watermarked]], distorted, have any credits in the image itself or anything else that would hamper their free use, unless, of course, the image is intended to demonstrate watermarking, distortion etc. and is used in the related article. All photo credit should be in a summary on the [[image description page]]."''

::--[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 03:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

::::By the way, they really are nice images and I was sorry to delete them -- perhaps someone can see if the original uploaders [[User:Anitaa|Anitaa]] ([[:Image:Bharatanatyam_3.jpg]]) and [[User:Bharatanatyam1|Bharatanatyam1]] ([[:Image:bharatanatyam_17.jpg]]) would be willing to make available copies without watermarks. --[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 04:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

== Further discussion of links==

FYI, the kalakendra.com site whose links so many editors here have been so often deleting has been proposed for [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Spam_blacklist blacklisting] WikiMedia-wide -- all languages and all projects (Wikipedia, Wiktionary, etc.). See [[m:Talk:Spam blacklist#kalakendra.com]]. --[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 04:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

::Kalakendra.com is now [[m:Spam blacklist|blacklisted]].[http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Spam_blacklist&diff=508593&oldid=508585][http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Spam_blacklist&diff=508592&oldid=508360] This list is publicly accessible and (depending on whom you believe) rumored by some to be used as an input by some search engines in figuring out their own [http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=40052 blacklists] of [[Spamdexing|spamdexers]]. --[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 03:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Remaining links:

:::*http://anigat.coolinc.info/indian-dance/Bharatanatyam_DVD_trailers_Indian_Dance_video_clips_Bharata_Natyam_Bharatnatyam.html

:::**appears to be associated with the video sales site, http://jayq.org

:::***owned by JayQ Networks Ltd, 62 Lytton Rd, Gisborne, New Zealand

:::****not needed; also dmoz.org links to multiple sources of streaming vidoes

:::***** Inappropriate per the [[WP:EL|External Links Guideline]]

:::******Current [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinksearch&target=*.jayq.org list] of jayq.org links within Wikipedia: '''0''' at this time

:::******Current [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinksearch&target=*.coolinc.info list] of coolinc.info links within Wikipedia: '''1''' at this time

:::*in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharatanatyam-bharathanatyam-bharata-natyam-bharatnatyam-video-dvd.html

:::*in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharatanatyam/bharatanatyam.html

:::**in.geocities.com/medhahari/ is a promotional site for the dancer [[Medha Hari]]. Internal wikilinks to [[Medha Hari]] are allowed depending on circumstances. One link to her external web site from her article is OK. In most cases, the [[WP:EL|External Links Guideline]] prohibits links from other articles

:::***not needed here; also dmoz.org links to multiple dancers' web pages and multiple sources of streaming videos

:::****There are [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinksearch&target=*.in.geocities.com%2Fmedhahari multiple inappropriate links] to this site from various Wikipedia articles -- I will ask [[WT:WPSPAM#Bharatanatyam|WikiProject Spam]] people to review these for deletion elsewhere

:::*http://www.geocities.com/study_bharatanatyam_online/learn_bharata_natyam_bharatnatyam_bharathanatyam_courses.html

:::**Self-published but may meet [[WP:RS|Reliable Sources Guideline]] given author's apparent "authority":

:::***''"Prof. R.Raju teaches at the School of Performing Arts, University of Pondicherry, and was a teacher in the Drama Department of Tamil University, Thanjavur. He is a well-known authority in the field of the classical Indian dance."''

:::****Current [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinksearch&target=*.geocities.com%2Fstudy_bharatanatyam_online list] of these links within Wikipedia -- none besides this article

:::*****Only external links from this page are to sridevinrithyalaya.org -- what type of organization is this?

:::******Comments? (Please place them after this heavily indented and bulleted post of mine so we don't get confused as to who's saying what)

:::*http://www.pir.net/~beth/Dance/mudras.html

:::**Self-published, non-commercial page; probably does not meet the [[WP:RS|Reliable Sources Guideline]]

:::***Current [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinksearch&target=*.pir.net%2F%7Ebeth list] of these links within Wikipedia '''3''' -- all to [[Sari]]

:::****Comments? (Please place them after this heavily indented and bulleted post of mine so we don't get confused as to who's saying what)

:::*http://www.sridevinrithyalaya.org/video.html

:::**Links to Sri Devi Nrithyalaya -- what type of organization is this? Is this an appropriate link?

:::***Current [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinksearch&target=*.sridevinrithyalaya.org list] of these links within Wikipedia '''53''' at this time (most of them images and most of the images watermarked)

:::****Comments? (Please place them after this heavily indented and bulleted post of mine so we don't get confused as to who's saying what)

:::*http://www.tamilnation.org/culture/dance/index.htm

:::**Is tamilnation.org an appropriate link?

:::***Current [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinksearch&target=*.tamilnation.org list] of these links within Wikipedia '''437''' at this time

:::****Opinions? (Please place them after this heavily indented and bulleted post of mine so we don't get confused as to who's saying what)

:::*http://www.webvoter.net/en/vote.cgi?id=59352

:::**Never appropriate for Wikipedia linking

:::***Current [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinksearch&target=*.webvoter.net list] of these links within Wikipedia -- not suprisingly, none elsewhere within all 1.6 million articles

:::--[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 13:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC) <small>(comment further edited by --[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 15:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC))</small>

::::For your kind information, there is NO MENTION OF and NO LINKS TO Medha Hari on in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharatanatyam/bharatanatyam.html

::::Don't be blind.

::::[[User:Toko99|Toko99]] 02:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::[[User:Toko99|Toko99]], I see you're brand-new to editing Wikipedia. Welcome.

:::::I may well be blind as you put it, but let's look anyway at the Guideline and some of the links you just added:

:::::*http://dmoz.org/Arts/Performing_Arts/Dance/Classical_Indian/Bharata_Natyam/Dancers/

:::::**You changed the existing dmoz link so that it was only to the directory of dancers and not the previous broader list of resources including multiple sources of streaming videos, trailers and DVDs in addition to your links:

:::::***http://dmoz.org/Arts/Performing_Arts/Dance/Classical_Indian/Bharata_Natyam/

:::::****Why make this change?

:::::*in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharatanatyam/bharatanatyam.html Bharata natyam

:::::**Your comment: ''"NO MENTION OF and NO LINKS TO Medha Hari on in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharatanatyam/bharatanatyam.html"''

:::::***Interesting page: over 235 links are embedded in the source code that a search engine sees. Check these out:

:::::****in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharatanatyam-bharata-natyam-bharatnatyam-bharathanatyam-pictures.html

:::::****in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharata-natyam-bharathanatyam-bharatanatyam-bharatnatyam-photos.html

:::::****in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharata-natyam-bharathanatyam-bharatanatyam-bharatnatyam-videos.html

:::::****in.geocities.com/medhahari/index.html

:::::*http://anigat.coolinc.info/indian-dance/Bharatanatyam_DVD_trailers_Indian_Dance_video_clips_Bharata_Natyam_Bharatnatyam.html

:::::**As discussed previously, this is tied to the jayq.org DVD sales business. There's nothing dishonorable about selling DVDs, but it does not fit the Guideline you so forcefully told me to read:

:::::***''"Dear A.B. & Ramachandran, Please read the External Links Guideline once again. I do not know if you misinterpret them intentionally or unintentionally (maybe you do not understand the English language well?)"''

:::::****[[WP:EL#Links normally to be avoided|"Links normally to be avoided" -- ''"Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services."''

:::::*Finally, I note that we have a strong policy of [[WP:CIVIL|civility]] here. I have a pretty thick skin, but you'll find others may not react as blandly to comments such as ''"maybe you do not understand the English language well"''.

:::::Cheers, --[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 04:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::Except for some image files and the [[Medha Hari]] article, in.geocities.com/medhahari/ links have been removed from all the other articles per [[WP:EL]]:

::::::*[[Bhakti yoga]]

::::::*[[Ceremonial dance]]

::::::*[[Classical Indian dance]]

::::::*[[Classical Indian musical theatre]]

::::::*[[Dance in mythology and religion]]

::::::*[[Worship dance]]

::::::Please do not reinsert them in these articles. Thank you, --[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 09:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::: Can someone give a proper answer to my question before reverting???? [[User:Wikisvenska|Wikisvenska]] 02:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Being unsatisfied with an answer is no reason to revert - please have a look at prior discussion as well as previous reverts, you will see that you are making exactly the same reverts as another user, I'm willing to assume good faith, but wait for a discussion to develop before reverting, thanks [[User:Sfacets|Sfacets]] 02:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

1. [[User:Wikisvenska|Wikisvenska]], I already addressed the issue of in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharatanatyam/bharatanatyam.html a day or two ago. Over 235 links are embedded in the source code that a search engine sees. Check these out:

:*in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharatanatyam-bharata-natyam-bharatnatyam-bharathanatyam-pictures.html

:*in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharata-natyam-bharathanatyam-bharatanatyam-bharatnatyam-photos.html

:*in.geocities.com/medhahari/bharata-natyam-bharathanatyam-bharatanatyam-bharatnatyam-videos.html

:*in.geocities.com/medhahari/index.html

2. You also raised concerns about the link to Dr. Raju's page at:

:*http://geocities.com/study_bharatanatyam_online/learn_bharata_natyam_bharatnatyam_bharathanatyam_courses.html

:I specifically addressed this the other day and included a link to the relevant Wikipedia guideline:

::*''"http://www.geocities.com/study_bharatanatyam_online/learn_bharata_natyam_bharatnatyam_bharathanatyam_courses.html"''

::**''"Self-published but may meet [[WP:RS|Reliable Sources Guideline]] given author's apparent "authority":"''

::***''"Prof. R.Raju teaches at the School of Performing Arts, University of Pondicherry, and was a teacher in the Drama Department of Tamil University, Thanjavur. He is a well-known authority in the field of the classical Indian dance."''

::****''"Current [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinksearch&target=*.geocities.com%2Fstudy_bharatanatyam_online list] of these links within Wikipedia -- none besides this article"''

::*****''"Only external links from this page are to sridevinrithyalaya.org -- what type of organization is this?"''

::******''"Comments? "''

::''"--A. B. (talk) 13:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC) (comment further edited by --A. B. (talk) 15:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC))"''

:Let us know your thoughts about Dr. Raju's link after you review the above.

3. Partisans of in.geocities.com/medhahari have never explained why they always change the dmoz.org link to exclude lists of links to other sources of DVDs and trailers. They substitute a link to a directory of dancers only. You did it yourself, changing

:*http://dmoz.org/Arts/Performing_Arts/Dance/Classical_Indian/Bharata_Natyam/Dancers/

:to the narrower category of dancers only:

:*http://dmoz.org/Arts/Performing_Arts/Dance/Classical_Indian/Bharata_Natyam

Why? What's your reasoning? The broader category still includes all the dancers of the narrower category -- so why are you doing this?<br>

--[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 03:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

==Medha Hari spam on Wikipedia==

Too many indents above, so dont know who's replying to whom. But I get the drift of the conversation and here are my views. This Medha Hari thing and all thos photographs of literal non entities on the page is apalling. This is spam, blatant advertisement and vanity all rolled into one. To the original poster - did you say that this sridevin<s>e</s>rithralaya.org site has been successfully blacklistted on wiki? If so, can I remove all those ugly pictures of those non entities that are taking wikipedia and its readers for a ride? I just dont want to be reported for vandalism when I remove all of them ''en masse''. [[User:Sarvagnya|Sarvagnya]] 05:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

::Medha Hari sites were just blacklisted an hour or so ago. Here's the blacklist request:

::*[[m:Talk:Spam blacklist#Medha Hari spam on Wikipedia]]

::**The links in that request will give you the background on much of this

::sridevinethralaya.org has not been blacklisted. (Should it be?)

::I'm just the spam cleanup guy here -- I leave editorial decisions including image selection to others. --[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 05:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

:::Ok. Thanks for the clarification. But I have a very important question about this article and Wikipedia in general. My understanding and opinion is that every bit or byte invested on the article page should be notable and encyclopedic. My concerns are regarding the half dozen pics on the article page. All of them seem to come from sridevin<s>e</s>rithralaya.org. The problem here is that the dancers in the pics are literally 'nobodies' in the field. One of the pics is clearly from some college fest or something! All of them are amateurs and nobody knows their credentials. Having their pics on the article page dedicated to this art may mislead ignorant readers into thinking that they are somehow representative of the art. Which they are not. While many wiki laws and guidelines are there to regulate prose content, can nothing be done about the pictures? Please throw some light on this. [[User:Sarvagnya|Sarvagnya]] 05:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

::::: Hi Sarvagnya! I don't see "half a dozen pictures" here. Even if there were any, it is an article on Bharatanatyam, and not on hydrocarbons, and hence the need for illustrations, don't you think? I do agree with you that "the pics are literally 'nobodies' in the field", however, don't you agree that the "seniors" (e.g. Padma Subramaniam) would look far uglier, as they cannot even lift their legs? :-) OK, why don't you post Alarmel Valli's picture, for a variety? Maybe, Urmila Sathyanarayans? As for the rest.... You know, after watching those old fat ladies posing as "notable Bharatanatyam exponents", I much prefer to see SriDeviNrithyalaya's dancers pictures! [[User:Sethumadhavan33|Sethumadhavan33]] 12:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

::::You say Medha Hari ''site'''s''''' were blacklisted. Does that include medha.org also? If so, I will be removing a picture taken from that site and plastered on the article page. [[User:Sarvagnya|Sarvagnya]] 05:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::''"While many wiki laws and guidelines are there to regulate prose content, can nothing be done about the pictures? Please throw some light on this."''

:::::*See [[WP:BOLD]] -- go for it. I appreciate your work on this.

:::::--[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|^(talk)]] 13:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::: I do not see the reasons how these sites violate any of Wikipedia's policies. Please quote clearly. [[User:Bharathathatha|Bharathathatha]] 16:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

::::::: The article now begins with warning against adding "possibly inappropiate external link to an article". After spending quite a while scrutinizing this discussion page, I fail to see how some of the links, such as the Bharatanatyam page on M.Hari's web site, can ever be <i>"inappropriate"</i>. I guess that some over-zealous "spam-fighters" should temper down their zeal and cool down. [[User:Jag Ju|Jag Ju]] 10:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

==Blanking & vandalism of valid external links==

Please do not remove Tamilnation.org links as there is no restriction anywhere. What is written in the diff you have [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABurning_of_Jaffna_library&diff=114993046&oldid=114937553 given]. Its not a community consensus proceedings. Moreover, the admin [[User:Blnguyen|Blnguyen]] didn't say a word about Tamilnation.org. Provide 'relevant' diffs before you proceed and blank the material [[User:Praveen pillay|Praveen]] 19:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

:Please see [[WP:EL]]. The link provided is a research paper and has nothing to do with the article. The paper was published 40 years ago, contains original research and biased view of the author. Linking such articles either as a source or external link is against wikipedia policies. Thanks [[User:Gnanapiti|Gnanapiti]] 19:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

:: You are right; that article contains original research about Bharathanatyam. Wikipedia doesn't allow its users to conduct OR not all the people in the world for God's sake. If thats the case, we can not have any article on relativity since its OR. :)))) I can't believe this :) [[User:Praveen pillay|Praveen]] 19:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

:::Not all, but an age old "research" paper from a blacklisted site is certainly OR. And please learn to read the diffs properly before accusing someone of lying. Thanks [[User:Gnanapiti|Gnanapiti]] 19:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

::::FYI: Age does not matter here. The special theory of relativity paper is even older. huh. BTW: regarding diff, see my reply below. [[User:Praveen pillay|Praveen]] 19:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

::::: Do not accuse some website without proof. Show me proof of your 'blacklist' comment. And, don't show me an user's opinion in a diff. [[User:Praveen pillay|Praveen]] 19:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

:To Praveen:

:Have you seen the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Blnguyen&diff=next&oldid=84989793 diff] I have provided?

:It clearly says as below:

{{cquote|'''Tamil Nation is an obvious partisan commentary website and doesn't write in a neutral tone at all. It appears to be a political organisation supporting the Tamil Tigers or something.'''}}

:I hope this stops the revert war and addition of the same external link again. - [[User:KNM|KNM]] ^{'''[[:User_talk:KNM|Talk]]'''} 19:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

::You provided [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABurning_of_Jaffna_library&diff=114993046&oldid=114937553 this] link before. Now you changed it. Anyways, the discussion you provided is not a community consensus; its merely one user's view point. Nothing more nothing less. There is no ban on tamilnet website itself let alone tamilnation.org. Moreover, the research paper is not related to LTTE which was the subject of your diff. I will also find the same paper from library and provide link. [[User:Praveen pillay|Praveen]] 19:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

:::'''Saravagina and KNM:''' If it's not broke, don't fix it. I have left your Yakshagana article alone. I advice you guys to do the same for this article. [[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 20:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

::::''Your'' Yakshagana article? What are you talking about Wiki Raja? Please see [[WP:OWN]]. You really need to read some Wiki policies, atleast from now on. I just removed irrelevant external links according to [[WP:EL]], in order to '''improve''' article. Again, please see [[WP:AGF]]. The link provided doesn't qualify to be an external link due to it's biased nature and irrelevancy to the article. Thanks [[User:Gnanapiti|Gnanapiti]] 20:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

::::Excuse me, but that message was or Sarvagnya and KNM. Why are you answering? Also, it is very strange during mutliple reverts how the three of you take turns. Books along with their page numbers are included for the referenced sources. If you do not consider that proper sourcing, then what is? Your guys POV, simple saying things without providing any references, making up stories as one goes? I have had enough of your guys prejudistic antics. [[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 20:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::Which sources are you disputing? Encyclopedia Brintannica?? thats insane. Please write which sources are disputed before putting up the tags. [[User:Praveen pillay|Praveen]] 21:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::Some minds are so twisted that they will literally dispute the sky being blue, and the grass being green. [[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 21:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Another basic Wikipedia policy for Wiki Raja - [[WP:VERIFY]]. ''The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth''. [[User:Gnanapiti|Gnanapiti]] 21:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Gnanapiti, please see [[WP:DFTT |this]]. Thanks. [[:User_talk:Sarvagnya|Sarvagnya]] 21:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Reported to [[WP:AN]]. see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Edit_war_on_article_Bharathanatyam here]. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Praveen pillay|Praveen pillay]] ([[User talk:Praveen pillay|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Praveen pillay|contribs]]) 22:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

:::::::::Gnanapiti, you are contradicting yourself. I have provided verifyalbe source from the following texts:

:::::::::*International Tamil Language Foundation (2000). The Handbook of Tamil Culture and Heritiage. Chicago: International Tamil Language Foundation, p. 1201.<br>

:::::::::*Kilger, George (1993). Bharata Natyam in Cultural Perspective. New Delhi: Manohar American Institute of Indian Studies, p. 2.<br>

:::::::::*Nayagam, X.S. Thani (1970). Tamil Culture and Civilization. London: Asia Publishing House, pp. 120-121.

:::::::::It seems that you guys have deliberately removed them which constitutes to vandalism. Another baisc Wikipedia policy for [[user:Gnanapiti|Gnanapiti]], [[user:Sarvagnya|Sarvnagya]], and [[user:KNM|KNM]] - [[WP:VAN]]. Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. [[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 21:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::''Removed them?'' When? What? Where? Why? How? [[User:Gnanapiti|Gnanapiti]] 21:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::::Stop playing innocent. [[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 22:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::::Man this is hilarious. :D Show me where anyone has removed your references. Give me the diff.[[User:Gnanapiti|Gnanapiti]] 22:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::::::You guys have done so [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bharatanatyam&diff=112920756&oldid=112747168 here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bharatanatyam&diff=112966406&oldid=112927463 here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bharatanatyam&diff=115139612&oldid=115128267 here], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bharatanatyam&diff=115161290&oldid=115158494 here] just in case you all have forgotten. [[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 22:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::::::Did someone get caught with their hand in the cookie jar? [[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 02:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

==How to cite material from Tamilnation==

The material from Tamilnation is not original material by anyone associated with Tamilnation. It is paper publshed in a conference where peer reviewed paper are presented by reputable authors of the field. Wiki cite has a way tocite such material that is not directly available.

===Option 1===

ref cite web

*| title = XXXXXXXXXX

*| work = Quoted from the the Conference........, [[1983-08-29]]

*| publisher = Tamilnation, USA

*| url = http://www.tamilnationorg/..... /ref

===Option 2===

Forget about the link itself, simply quote from the published paper from the conference. This is more acceptable as long as the material is used for main body of the material.

This is how salvagable material from otherwise non RS sources are used in Wikipedia. [[User:RaveenS|RaveenS]] 21:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

:Tamilnation.org is also a virtual library with sources from books, in some cases the full version of particular books are available on that site. Also, there are sources from various newspapers and media around the world on TamilNation. [[User:Wiki Raja|Wiki Raja]] 22:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)