Talk:Manx cat: Difference between revisions

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I'm a newbie to Wikipedia but not to the Manx breed cat. I'm a professional Manx cat breeder with cats that have Regional and National level wins. I am not trying to promote my cattery or sell cats, only promoting I'm doing is for my breed in an honest, accurate manner. When I posted my article on the breed I intended to make sure my breed of choice (which I have put nine years of my life into) is not misrepresented by some of the things you have posted. There is NO SUCH THING as Manx Syndrome!!!!! Manx cats are not the unhealthy cats you portray them as being in your article!!! In the nine years I've been breeding the registered Manx cat, I have only ever experienced ONE thing you claim they can have (bowel incontinence). That was in a Father/Daughter breeding which in itself could have been the problem and was not repeated. Manx cats tails DO NOT have to be docked!!! I've left their tails on for years with no ill effects to date as have other breeders. I think before you remove my posting for yours next time you might want to read what I have posted and research this breed better, who would know more about the breed than a breeder? Are you a registered Manx cat breeder or a cat owner? I have not posted a long article on the breed, there is room for you to add something to it, however I hope we can both agree on it if you intend to post things about this breed and there should be some way of you verifying the information your posting.

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A summary of this article appears on a rotational basis in [[Portal:Cats]] under the "Selected breed" section. Any improvement to this article's [[wp:lead|lead]] section should be copied to the relevant entry on [[Portal:Cats/Selected_breed]]. <!-- &ndash;[[Special:Contributions/165.21.154.90|165.21.154.90]] ([[User talk:165.21.154.90|talk]]) 06:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)-->}}{{archivebox|1=<nowiki />

*[[/Archive 1|Archive 1]] (2005&ndash;6)

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== Various image problems==

==EliasAlucard's response==

{{Unresolved|1=Image issues not taken care of entirely in over 4 years.}}

Look, that old article wasn't mine. I had just added some extra stuff into it. It is very clear that you are a [[n00b]] here on Wikipedia. Before editing, I think you should read the edit rules more. Why? Because you are removing vital parts of the article, like inter-wikilinks and other useful stuff. If you check the history of the article ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Manx_%28cat%29&action=history click here]), you'll notice that I didn't start the article; many people before me wrote it up. I am very sure that all of us together know more than you do. As much as the breed Manx has improved in the health department, it is a known fact that this breed CAN have major issues as a direct result of the Manx syndrome. You want verification? [http://www.fanciers.com/breed-faqs/manx-faq.html Check this FAQ and search for syndrome]... by not knowing this, I highly question your skills as a Manx breeder. Or could it be because you want to sell more of the breed and glorify it because of that by removing the negative parts? That's in opposition to [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|Wikipedia's neutral point of view]]. It doesn't matter if you've bred the race for centuries, not knowing this makes you a n00b here as well, because this is a very, VERY common knowledge a Manx breeder MUST have; it's mandatory because the kittens/offspring might suffer severe problems if bred inaccurate or with two tailless parents. I did not portray them as unhealthy cats, the editors before me did, and it is true that they can be very unhealthy. The breed is known for having been created by inbreeding due to the lack of [[cat]]s on [[Isle of Man]]. This is why the race is tailless. Ever bred two siblings of any cat [[breed]]? It is very common to get one or more tailless kittens as a result of this.

This article has come a long way from my first visit and subsequent edits to it. I don't wish to appear to be "tooting my own horn" or again, be accused of "trying to sell kittens" by adding a comment on this article. However, I feel I have something of value to add and would like to offer my years of experience as a CFA registered Manx breeder. Most everything I knew about editing and posting here I've forgotten, so please bear with me as I try to post a comment about this article. I think the picture's displayed in the article that represent the Manx cat could be more diverse. With all due respect, the cats pictured in the article seem to resemble more Japanese Bobtail cats, than Manx.

http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profiles/japanese.html

===Pictures, links etc===

If you want to add your pictures and links, that's fine. Just don't remove everything else. They're there for a good reason. In my opinion, you've made this article way inferior.

Japanese Bobtail kittens are never born tailless, neither are they born with full tails. Their tails are clearly visible, composed of one or more curves, angles, or kinks or any combination thereof. The genetic factor that has created the Japanese Bobtail is completely different from the Manx. Unlike the Manx, the two breeds are not related in any way. Not only are their tails different, but their body types are both completely opposite.

Also, when you edit, use the show preview button, because saving every little change you do overloads wikipedia with redundant and superfluous article history, if everyone did like this, wikipedia wouldn't exist due to server malfunction.

Manx cats have varying tail lengths, but are best known for being completely tailless. I think examples of the varying tail lengths and breeds characteristics should be shown. I can provide as many pictures as needed to post to this article that represents what an actual Manx cat is known and described to look like.

By the way, for what it's worth, I am an owner of the breed, two siblings, and I've done my homework on the race. My Manx kittens aren't registered, and frankly, that doesn't mean shit because it's a cheap shot of milking money out of cat owners.

*[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 04:09, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profiles/manx.html

== Karello's Reply ==

The Manx tailless gene is dominant, kittens tails that inherit it can vary from a full tail, a short tail, a rise (known as a “rumpy riser”), or no tail (“rumpies”) at all. Aside from being tailless, the Manx is also known for its robust and rounded appearance. This breed is described as being drawn with a series of circles. It has a very round head and rounded cheeks that give it a jowly appearance; this is seen even more so in the male cat than in the female.

I understand the article was not written by you to begin with. However, it seems you think you've taken over "ownership" of it and it's inaccuracies by demanding they continue to be posted. By not correcting information contained within that was not accurate your given people who visit this site the wrong impression of this breed. I salute you for allowing a more positive, accurate portrayal of the breed I've posted to remain listed this last time. I know all the breeders who wrote the Manx Breed FAQS site and do not believe they would want such negative, incorrect information posted about our breed. I do not know Karen Johnson the first to publish the information about the Manx breed cat here or any of the others but can assure you they are not Manx breeders and can not back up what Karen published with the knowledge I have of this breed through working with it. I highly doubtany of you know as much as I and my fellow Manx breeders know with over 40 years of breeding experience so don't go there! Since there is no such thing as Manx Syndrome and you refuse to accept this with your comment of "it is a known fact that this breed CAN have major issues as a direct result of the Manx syndrome." I have added an external link to a very experienced Manx breeders comments on Manx Syndrome for you to read all about it yourself. Hopefully, you'll take Sherman Ross's word on this if you won't mine! As for the Cat Fanciers The Manx: Cat Breed FAQS you wanted me to look up, only two of the site owners are still breeding Manx cats. One of which was my mentor when I started breeding Manx, nine years ago. To the best of my knowledge, that site has not been updated since 1995 as stated, the information contained there in is not up to date with current Manx FAQs or completely accurate. By not knowing this it is you who should be questioning your own knowledge of the breed instead of me. If you think I'm correcting misinformation about the Manx breed and I must defend myself for being a Manx breeder feel free to look up my website at http://www.karellomanx.com/availablekittens.html and read about my philosiphies concerning my breeding practice. You'll be SHOCKED to learn I'm not the kind of breeder you portray me to be. In fact, perhaps my accomplishments listed on my site might serve to prove I do know what I'm doing and have been VERY successful at it. More so than some others who have experiences the horrible things mentioned in the prior article about this breed. I and other Manx breeders I work with have breed two tailless parents to each other without having any of the horrible health issues you speak of happening. I don't know who's the n00b but I think when it comes to breding the registered Manx cat you are! The Manx breed is not tailless because of inbreeding, it is tailless due to a genetic mutation. How it was introduced to the ISle of Man no one knows of course but it was introduced not through inbreeding. Inbreeding only served to concentrate the amount of cats having the genetic mutation on the Island. I do not breed siblings together and can not say if it were done one or more tailless kittens would be the result. I'm a professional Manx cat breeder I work only with registered stock that has known decendants from the Isle of Man and are true, purebred Manx cats not some cheap shot of milking money out of people there IS a difference.

I'd like to point out for those who don't know, in the interest of education, Manx cats are best "known" for being tailess, not every tailless or semi tailed cat is a Manx cat. The breed is not based on a "look" or "act", although, these are found most endearing and desirable in the breed. Manx cats have origin to the Isle of Man, much like humans have origin to certain countries to claim that nationality. Could you imagine what the world would be like if everyone was told they were a nationality based on how they acted or looked?

===What is a "Domestic Tailless" cat?===

"If short hair cats with unknown ancestors are referred to as being "domestic short hairs" and long hair cats with unknown ancestors are referred to as being "domestic long hairs", common sense says people should refer to cats who are born tailless or short tailed with unknown ancestors as being "domestic tailless"? There is a difference between the registered Manx cat and a domestic tailless cat. To some it doesn't matter all they're looking for is any cat without a tail and that's fine, but for those who would like to know the difference and own a quality bred Manx I've provided an explanation.

Please feel free to visit my User page or contact me as needed for the picture's to post to this site. [[User:Karello|Karello]] 00:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

PLEASE NOTE: The genetic mutation that causes the registered Manx cat to be born without a tail can happen in "any cat". This happening in "any cat" does not then make the off spring of "any cat" born without a tail a Manx breed cat. Those tailless off spring of "any cat" are what should more correctly be referred to as "domestic tailless" cats. Domestic tailless cats descendants are usually unknown and cannot be traced like that of the registered Manx cats who originated on the Isle of Man, (thus the name). Sounds to me like your just a back yard breeder with domestic tailless cats and have no clue about the true Manx cat breed.

:''Note: the lead image in the article as of that writing was [[:File:Manx breed cat named Inkku.jpg]].''

===P.S.===

Don't tell me what I can and can not post to this page, I have the knowledge to provide true, accurate facts about this breed. I did not post everything I know about the breed to be fair to others who would like to add to my information. I realize there are two sides to this story but speak from my own experience and truthfully. I do not have any problems with my Manx having health issues due to thier mutation or problems breeding rumpy to rumpy why should I mention it, that's NEUTRAL.

::If, as you say, you don't want to be accused of spamming, then stop promoting your website here. Per [[WP:REFACTOR]], I've removed your advertising, but kept the rest of your post here since it raises legitimate issues with the article. — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;">'''[[User:SMcCandlish|SMcCandlish]]''' <span style="white-space:nowrap;">[[User talk:SMcCandlish|Talk⇒]] ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ</span> <small>[[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|Contribs]].</small></span> 21:40, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

==EliasAlucard's second reply==

I'm not posting inaccuracies, you are. [http://www.whiskas.com.au/breeds/default.asp?b=247&subnav=e-r Check this], how many sites do I need to show you? I don't care about your self-proclaimed omniscience about this breed. I trust all these sites more than you. I quote:

:I have no expertise to question what breed of cat is pictured, but I did notice that most of the photos, including the main photo, show cats with at least some tail. If, as the article states, having no tail is the most common or at least most characteristic form of Manx, more of the photos (as well as the main photo) should reflect that. In short, more photos of no-tailed cats. [[Special:Contributions/71.146.160.245|71.146.160.245]] ([[User talk:71.146.160.245|talk]]) 21:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

"'''The reason for the missing tail is due to a dominant mutant gene that appeared in the animal a long time ago due to the breed's confinement on the Isle of Man that also led to its concentrated in-breeding. The mutant gene caused a spinal malformation that spread throughout the cat community resulting in the loss of the animal's tail.'''"

:Also, the picture of the black cat on the door and the white one below seem to be labeled revesed. The black cat seems to have a shorter tail than the white cat. However, the black cat is labeled as a "stuby" while the white cat is labeled a "stumpy". The article is quite clear that a "stuby" is longer than a "stumpy". Pictures showing (very distinctly please) the various degrees of "taillessness" would be greatly appreciated. --DMG <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.203.109.205|69.203.109.205]] ([[User talk:69.203.109.205|talk]]) 20:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

[http://www.fanciers.com/breed-faqs/manx-faq.html And this is from The Manx Cat Breed FAQ:] "'''The tailless gene, a dominant gene, is lethal when breeding rumpies to each other into or beyond the third generation. The breeder continues to use tailed cats in the breeding program to insure strong kittens and to reduce the possibility of genetic deformity.'''"

::I have removed the obvious bobtail pic. There are various other illustration issued raised here that need to be addressed, though, especially clear illustratoin of the tail types. — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;">'''[[User:SMcCandlish|SMcCandlish]]''' <span style="white-space:nowrap;">[[User talk:SMcCandlish|Talk⇒]] ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ</span> <small>[[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|Contribs]].</small></span> 21:40, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

That's what the Australian Whiskas site says. I've read the very same information on EVERY OTHER MANX SITE I'VE CHECKED. Frankly, I don't care about what your site says, and I'm not even going to bother myself with looking. Why? Because it's partial to your opinions about the race, not facts. I trust these cat corporation sites a lot more; they if anyone should know anything about cats more than some according to herself cat-omniscient breeder. If anyone has taken over the site, then it sure is you. [http://www.royalcanin.se/default.aspx?pageID=5529&lang=sv This is the Swedish Royal Canine site]. Even this site backs up what I say. I'm sure you can't read Swedish, but ask anyone at Swedish wikipedia about this link. Royal Canine knows more than you.

== Re: Hunting ==

===Registered Cats===

{{Unresolved|Significant aspect of the article not fully developed and sourced yet.}}

Oh yeah, I've read that part about registered cats before. It's stupid, seriously. If I have a [[Tiger]]/[[Lion]]/[[Cheetah]] or whatever and they're not registered, that doesn't make them less of actual breeds of the large [[felidae]] family that they already are part of. Sure, the idea of tracing a cat to its ancestors is a good one, but come on, acknowledge it... this entire registered cat thing is just a reason to sell one cat for $500 and higher.

The lead mentions they are notable for being skilled hunters but doesn't say anything more about this. Out of all of the cats I've ever had, the Manx is, indeed, an incredible hunter, and I don't recall seeing this type of behavior with any other cat. They also seem to be friendlier than other breeds. In any case, this article could use some expansion. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 15:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

mine is like that to sometimes <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Feral hydra|Feral hydra]] ([[User talk:Feral hydra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Feral hydra|contribs]]) 22:08, 13 November 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

===P.S.===

I couldn't restrain myself, I actually had a peek on your site. I found this: "Manx cats are like potato chips you can't have only one!" How can I take your site seriously if I find stuff like that? Also, when you end your messages here on the talk panel, do it with this because it's very important for others that might join the coversation, so they can know who wrote what:

*[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 12:49, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

:Quite a bit more could be said on this (with reliable sources, not children's cat books), esp. given that Manx cats are so common outside of Mann now largely because they were preferred as [[ship's cat]]s for their mousing abilities and were spread from port to port. — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;">'''[[User:SMcCandlish|SMcCandlish]]''' <span style="white-space:nowrap;">[[User talk:SMcCandlish|Talk⇒]] ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ</span> <small>[[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|Contribs]].</small></span> 21:40, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

==my take==

== "Stubbin" and Manx language ==

ok, first off, you are both fairly new to wikipedia. you have both asked different outside people for help, maybe you should take the problem to the [[WP:MC|mediation committee]]. this whole things seems to stem from whether or not manx syndrome exists, and if it is still prevelant in the breed. from what i've read, yes, it exists, but no, it's not as common as it once was. just let the article say that. i'm not terribly good at dispute resolution, so the MC is probably a good idea if you can't sort it out yourselves. on a side note, i removed the link to your site, Karello, because linking to a breeder's site is considered advertisement and is not allowed. i also changed the description of the manx syndrome link to more closely resemble the name of the page. and, Karello, please do sign your comments with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>, it makes it easier for everyone involved. [[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue]] [[User_talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]] 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

{{Resolved|1=Sourced in the article}}

"They are called ''stubbin'' in the Manx language." I'm skeptical. Manx is a branch of [[Goidelic languages|Gaelic]]. ''Stubbin'' seems like an English word that English-speakers would apply to a stub-tailed animal. —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 04:09, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

:There is a Manx/English dialect which has a mixture of English and Manx Gaelic words and grammar, so "stubbin" could be a word used in the Isle of Man. However, I used to live on the island a good many years ago and never heard "stubbin" or "stubby" used. It was always either "rumpy" or "stumpy". I am not saying they aren't used nowadays or in other places. [[User:Dabbler|Dabbler]] ([[User talk:Dabbler|talk]]) 13:07, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

==Karello's second reply to The JPS==

::The report of that word actually dates to the 1800s at least[http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/history/agricul/manxcat.htm]. Manx is a pretty mixed-up language, with a very large number of English loanwords and other English influences, so ''stubbin'' as a (formerly) common Manxism isn't incredible in any way. Manx is a nominally Goidelic language with an enormous Germanico-Romance overlay via English due to the Isle of Man having been conquered by England, in pretty much exactly the same way that English is nominally a Germanic language, with an enormous Graeco-Latinate overlay via Old French due to England having been conquered by Norman France. Anyway, I have Manx language books around (believe it or not), so I'll source it in the article. — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;">'''[[User:SMcCandlish|SMcCandlish]]''' <span style="white-space:nowrap;">[[User talk:SMcCandlish|Talk⇒]] ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ</span> <small>[[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|Contribs]].</small></span> 18:56, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I think it's nice you've made a compromise with all the infromation that has been posted about the Manx breed however in removing most of what I've posted think there are a few things need to be edited. For example, cat registry orginazations do not describe the Manx breed cat as having a semi-hunched appearence. The description I entered is more correct "having a continuous arch from shoulders to rump giving the cat a rounded appearance." I'm checking with other breeders to see if the statement "It is very normal for cats to be tailless or have a shorter tail than usual when exposed to inbreeding, regardless of the race" is correct, I'll get back to you on this one, I don't breed anything except registered Manx cats. The word 'MANX' is plural like the words fish and deer it does not have "es" at the end of it this is improper grammar. Most Manx are not completely tailless, they are best KNOWN as being a tailless cat however, the ratio of taillessness can not be pin pointed, the taillessness is not what make them Manx breed cats. You have one part of the article stating Manx that are born with tails are docked and the next part stating what I said, Manx tails are not docked anymore, especially outside the US. In the "stumpy calico Manx" picture the calico cat says it's a tortie cat when you mouse over the word calico. A tortie colored cat does NOT have that much white on it in ANY cat registry!! A calico is a white cat with black and red patches I made that correction but EliasAlucard changed it back. If you want the article to have correct statements and insist on removing things I'm knowledgable about then PLEASE go to http://www.cfainc.org and look up this information yourselves. The Cat Fanciers' Association is the World's Largest Registry of Pedigreed cats (they say so on their page) I think they should know what a Manx cat's body, color and coat should look like is it that hard to refer to their description and remove the incorrect infromation from this article? I tried adding to this article more accurate information as a breeder I know to be correct however it keeps getting changed. If you won't believe my knowledge about this breed as a breeder then take theirs! The Bengal and Ocicats are VERY active cats, the Manx cat is not an active cat this statement is incorrect and give the reader the wrong impression about this breed. I'll stop here because as I go down the page there is information I've never came across or experienced in all the nine years I've been breeding and dealing with pedigreed manx cats! PS Just so you know, my cattery information was posted to the site as a soruce of my knowledge about the breed not to promote my site.

==Appeal for a good rumpy picture==

==Hope this works...==

Could someone who has/owns a good picture of a Manx rumpy please upload it for use as the main picture for the Info box. The Manx is best known for its tailless nature so a picture of one even with a short tail is misleading and distracting. I did check all the ones on file in Wikipedia/Wikimedia and unfortunately none of them are really good enough. [[User:Dabbler|Dabbler]] ([[User talk:Dabbler|talk]]) 13:07, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

:Definitely; the long-stubby in the main pic (as of this writing - still [[:File:Manx breed cat named Inkku.jpg]]) doesn't even qualify as a proper Manx according to some of the breed standards. That, and it does look like a Japanese bobtail to me, as well; several others have pointed this out since (hard to believe) 2007. Anyway, I have a rumpy; I'll see if any of the pics I have of him so far are WP-worthy. — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;">'''[[User:SMcCandlish|SMcCandlish]]''' <span style="white-space:nowrap;">[[User talk:SMcCandlish|Talk⇒]] ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ</span> <small>[[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|Contribs]].</small></span> 10:43, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

[[User:Karello|Karello]] 22:07, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC) forgot to identify myself in the prior post, hope this works!

:I've removed the bobtail pic and put a rumpy riser in there, but it is not a high-quality photo. Better a ho-hum placeholder that is correct than an incorrect pic. — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;">'''[[User:SMcCandlish|SMcCandlish]]''' <span style="white-space:nowrap;">[[User talk:SMcCandlish|Talk⇒]] ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ</span> <small>[[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|Contribs]].</small></span> 21:40, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

== Source on "Manx syndrome" ==

==i did some work...==

Someone pasted this into the "External links" section, but it [[WP:EL|isn't appropriate]] there (it's not a major resource about Manx cats, the subject of this article, but about a sub-sub-topic, a specific health issue in the health section):

I did some work on the article, trying to make it more neutral and accurate. Some of things that have been mentioned as 'inaccurate' I left alone, because I don't know enough about the topic. The one thing that I know still needs to be done is the "Other Characteristics" section needs to be merged into other areas of the article, since much of it is repeat info, albeit in more detail. Also, references to calico cats link to tortoishell cat for a reason. The issue was discussed on the [[Talk:Tortoiseshell cat|Tortoisehll cat]] and the [[Talk:Cat|Cat]] articles. [[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue]] [[User_talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]] 23:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

*"[http://www.ufaw.org.uk/manxsyndrome.php Genetic welfare problems of companion animals - Manx Syndrome]", at ''UFAW.org.uk''

It should be checked for reliability, and if good should be used inline per [[WP:CITE]] as a source for specific facts. This page has massive reliable sourcing issues, and the last thing it needs is more trivia links; it's needs source citations. — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;">'''[[User:SMcCandlish|SMcCandlish]]''' &nbsp; <span style="white-space:nowrap;">[[User talk:SMcCandlish|Talk⇒]]〈°⌊°〉</span> <small>[[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|Contribs]].</small></span> 00:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

== Source to use for more sources ==

==EliasAlucard's third reply==

I've made some more cleaning. Seriously Karello, stop removing calico/tabby links. They're there for a good reason, because if you check those inter wikilinks, they bring up the very subject that is linked from the Manx article. This is why I and everyone else are keep adding them back. So stop. Also, there are no such articles as those links you changed to, and probably won't be.

This source cites its own sources, and we can track down many of those it uses, e.g. on genetics, to improve this article: {{cite web |title=ACF Breeding Policy for the Manx and Cymric Cat |format=PDF |author=<!--Staff writer(s); no by-line.--> |work=ACF.asn.au |publisher=Australian Cat Federation |url= http://www.acf.asn.au/notices/notices/2015%20Meeting/ACF_GM15_Ap_SC3a_Breeding%20Policy_Manx_Cymric,%20.pdf |accessdate=July 10, 2014}} <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ </span> 10:11, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

===Manx Syndrome===

Oh yeah, the Manx Syndrome, look, it doesn't matter how much you love this race and want it to be free of diseases/whatever, this syndrome exists. [http://www.google.se/search?q=Manx+Syndrome&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official Check this Google search for proof]. As much as it is a hard fact for you to accept, you must accept it. It's no bogus, that's for sure. I don't know why you got so much problem with doing so, could it be that customers are complaining about the disease after reading about it here on this very article? Also, I'm not in any way a Manx breeder, I just own two Manx kittens. And that's another thing; you might have bred many Manx cats, but even so, all of the Manx cats you've bred, that doesn't sum up the entire breed and everything known about it. If you don't recognize some of the aspects/traits that this breed has, that doesn't change the entire breed to something beyond Manx. Your conception of this cat breed isn't ''the'' [[universal]] standard of how a Manx should be in every single way. Cats are like humans; all of them are unique in their own way, in both behaviour and appearance.

== External links modified ==

===Bengal/Ocicat issue===

I did NOT write that Manx were equally active. The similar aspects are for instance, high intelligence, that they like water [[et cetera]]. Also, Manx cats chase each other like crazy. My two does all the time, and that, if anything is activeness. Also, The Manx Breeder FAQ confirms this. But hey, we don't know anything, since it's not unanimous with your conceptions, right? Please, be realistic. Just to be on the safe side, I'll quote it [[verbatim]] from this [http://www.fanciers.com/breed-faqs/manx-faq.html FAQ]: "'''It is rare for a Manx to "play" on the judging table however much they might chase toys and race about in your home.'''" And "'''They do like to chase each other, so hearing the thunder of furry feet is usually the disturbance the Manx owner is used to.'''" I completely agree with these two statements since I've had to put up with this nuisance for over six months now.

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

===P.S.===

I've organized the pictures to the best of my ability to fit in to the context of the content. I've also added another picture.

*[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 12:11, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

I have just modified {{plural:8|one external link|8 external links}} on [[Manx cat]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=722303311 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:

== Ever hear of Japanese Bobtails? ==

*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121029020442/http://www.cfa.org/Client/articlethemanxcat.aspx to http://www.cfa.org/Client/articlethemanxcat.aspx

*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120601204111/http://www.isleofman.com/heritage/ePedia/Geography/Hills/spanish-head.aspx to http://www.isleofman.com/heritage/ePedia/Geography/Hills/spanish-head.aspx

*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120123073127/http://www.cfa.org/documents/standards/manx.pdf to http://www.cfa.org/documents/standards/manx.pdf

*Added archive https://web.http://www.webcitation.org/6Esi54joU to http://www.tica.org/members/publications/standards/mx.pdf

*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121208085015/http://www.gccfcats.org:80/breeds.html to http://www.gccfcats.org/breeds.html

*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20070208173705/http://www.gov.im:80/treasury/coins/commemorative.xml to http://www.gov.im/treasury/coins/commemorative.xml

*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20060615125156/http://www.cat-world.com.au:80/Loci2.htm to http://www.cat-world.com.au/Loci2.htm

*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20111007080959/http://www.ufaw.org.uk/manxsyndrome.php to http://www.ufaw.org.uk/manxsyndrome.php

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx|Sourcecheck}}).

EliasAlucard, before you go any further posting your experiences and basing your knowledge of the Manx breed cat on your two domestic tailless cats I think you need to do a reality check. You can't in all fairness and honesty compare the actual Manx breed cat that originated on the Isle of Man to the tailless cats you own. You can't say for certain like a registered Manx breeder can they are actually true Manx cats with known ancestors from the Isle of Man, not based on them being tailless and "looking" like the breed. Again, I say the genetic mutation that happens in the Manx breed cat to make them tailless can happen in ANY CAT/ANY CAT, this does NOT make them Manx breed cats then. Only having descendants from the Isle of Man does. Many registered Manx and Manx on the Isle of Man look nothing like known Manx cats look like, they have long bodies and full tails however they ARE Manx cats still because their parents are known to be from the Isle of Man. In looking at the pictures of the cats you've posted (I admit I'm not an authority on everything but think I know a little more about the purebred Manx cat than those who don't breed it) your cats are semi-tailless cats with kinked, stumpy tails. It is certainly possible that your cats don't have ancestors from the Isle of Man at all behind them, just carry the same genetic mutation the Isle of Man cats have! My guess (and again I'm no authority here) is they are more likely to have Japanese Bobtail behind them than Manx, since Japanese Bobtails are best known for having stumpy tails with kinks in them! That's not to say Manx kittens tails haven't have kinks although, I've never seen it in mine still doesn't mean it hasn't happened. The short, kinked tail is one of the traits that distinguish the Manx from the JBT's in many cat registries around the world. JBT's also have higher hind legs in the back than in the front like the Manx due to their mutation but still they're not Manx cats two completely different breeds of cat.

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If I were you, I'd investigate the Japanese Bobtail breed. http://cfainc.org/breeds/profiles/japanese.html Many domestic tailless cat owners, vets and shelters have blamed the Manx breed for semi/tailless cats when in fact they were not actually Manx cats at all, most are just domestic tailless cats and have no link to the Isle of Man at all. If for instance, you have black hair, brown eyes and olive skin and "look" Italian, (nothing against Italians I have Italian ancestors in my blood) this does NOT actually in itself make you Italian UNLESS you have the ancestry in your blood from Italy.

Cheers.—[[User:Cyberbot II|<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II</sup>]]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">[[User talk:Cyberbot II|<span style="color:green">Talk to my owner</span>]]:Online</sub></small> 06:37, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

It is my sincere wish to educate others about the true Manx breed cat and not allow them to be decieved or mislead by people who are trying to make a fast buck. I hope I'm accomplishing that in all that I do with this breed and my posts. Maybe others reading these pages will learn and come to understand there is a difference between any tailless cat and a true Manx breed cat and it's NOT based on a "look". Accept no immitations!!! The Manx breed cat is simply a cat that is from the Isle of Man, that is in fact what makes them Manx cats, not being tailless or "looking" a particular way no matter what they're KNOWN for looking like!!!

== External links modified ==

[[User:Karello|Karello]] 14:18, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

== enough ==

I have just modified {{plural:15|one external link|15 external links}} on [[Manx cat]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=739376239 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:

The article is factually accurate, as far as i can determine. if you two still feel the need to argue points that don't pertain to this specific article, i.e. Elias's cats ancestry, please take it to private emails. the talk page of an article is not the place for it. you have both broken the [[WP:NPA|no personal attacks policy]] during the course of your discussions. please take it elsewhere. You both have made good additions to this article, and i hope you continue to work on wikipedia. [[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue]] [[User_talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]] 15:06, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.gccfcats.org:80/breeds.html

*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.cfainc.org/Portals/0/documents/breeds/standards/manx.pdf

*Corrected formatting/usage for http://cccofa.asn.au/stdmanx.pdf

*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.gccfcats.org/regpols/manxregpol.pdf

*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nzcf.com/sop/Isle%20of%20Man%20SH.pdf

*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nzcf.com/sop/Isle%20of%20Man%20LH.pdf

*Corrected formatting/usage for http://catzinc.org/documents/2012STANDARDS.doc

*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6EshqmuKN?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cfainc.org%2FPortals%2F0%2Fdocuments%2Fbreeds%2Fstandards%2Fmanx.pdf to http://www.cfainc.org/Portals/0/documents/breeds/standards/manx.pdf

*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6EshyVRER?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww1.fifeweb.org%2Fdnld%2Fstd%2FMAN-CYM.pdf to http://www1.fifeweb.org/dnld/std/MAN-CYM.pdf

*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6Esi54joU?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tica.org%2Fmembers%2Fpublications%2Fstandards%2Fmx.pdf to http://www.tica.org/members/publications/standards/mx.pdf

*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6ZusQQUd4?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ffe-europe.de%2Fstandard%2Fmanx_e.htm to http://www.ffe-europe.de/standard/manx_e.htm

*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6EuEJQVaE?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcccofa.asn.au%2Fstdmanx.pdf to http://cccofa.asn.au/stdmanx.pdf

*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6EsvOo4HL?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cca-afc.com%2Fen%2FBreedStandards%2Fmanx.pdf to http://www.cca-afc.com/en/BreedStandards/manx.pdf

*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6ZupIu350?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gccfcats.org%2FPortals%2F0%2FManx.SOP.pdf to http://www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/Manx.SOP.pdf

*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6EtIW5J1i?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tsacc.org.za%2Fdownloads%2FManx.pdf to http://www.tsacc.org.za/downloads/Manx.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx|Sourcecheck}}).

===YES! Enough!===

Hey Karello, mail me if you want at '''eliasmaycry AT gmail DOT com''' and we can discuss this further. By the way, it's not a kink, she's just bending her tail, and that makes it appear as a kink, I can send you more pictures. And no, they're definitely not Japanese Bob-Tail cats; their mother was completely tailless, and so was one of their siblings. JBL cannot be tailless ;) I quote from the link you gave me: "'''Kittens are never born tailless, nor are they born with full tails.'''" Her brother has a complete tail. Anyway, mail me.

*[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 18:00, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

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==Grow Up!==

You've been told to stop what your doing, this discussion page is better served providing valuable information to those who are looking to find information about this breed not your childishness. Don't post anything for me again here or elsewhere I will not reply!

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 09:27, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

[[User:Karello|Karello]] 17:12, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

== stubbin ==

==We need to get this straight==

I decreased the size of your picture of that judge. Why? Because all other pictures are of that size. Why should that certain picture be larger? Also, the Manx syndrome part, it's a subcategory that should be under Health. That's why it should have three = instead of two. And as for inbreeding, any cat can have a shortened tail as a direct result of inbreeding; they don't need to carry the Manx gene for that. Inbreeding is crazy, anything can happen, after all, the Manx cat got this through inbreeding, the Manx gene is a result of it. Trust me on this, I've had two cats that had shorter tails because of inbreeding and they didn't have anything to do with Manx. One more thing about pictures, you need to be on the safe side with the copyright part, you can't just upload them without permission. You sure that judge allows you to put the picture here? Maybe she doesn't want her face on Wikipedia. You never know, ask her. Oh and if anyone needs to grow up, then it's you; running to others and crying over your edits is just so immature. Don't you think the previous editors before you are a little pissed for you removing everything they wrote and just replaced it with your version of the entire story? That's like a waste of effort for them because you removed every single second they worked on the article. Everyone here share a consensus that the Manx syndrome exists, except you. I got Whiskas, Royal Canine, fanciers.com and tons of other sites/huge cat corporations backing this up. But hey, you know more right, since after all, you've bred the breed for nine years. We're all wrong. Please, accept for once that you can be wrong here. One last thing, before you run around to other people begging them to punish me, consider who it is that needs to be punished. I've done a lot more than you here on Wikipedia, although I am fairly new too in comparison with others. Very seldom have people changed what I've been adding to other articles. If anyone thinks he/she owns this article, then it's you for removing everything and making your own version of it. I'm just trying to preserve the integrity it had before you came waltzing in here and changed everything. And mind you, I had barely written anything on it before that, so I can pretty much say in an impartial and unbiased way that it was better before.

===P.S.===

Felidae under see also is good, if the other cat breeds don't have it, then they should in my opinion. People in general don't know what felidae is. One last thing, I know more about my own cats than you do. You haven't seen 'em. I know they're Manx. Even if they aren't 100% Manx (such a thing doesn't exist by the way), they most definitely do carry a lot of Manx genetics.

*[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 21:45, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

kayt cuttagh lit. 'bob-tailed cat' This is very well said I had my stubby tailed cats tested at the UCLA animal lab and the results came back as akin to Manx. Although the origin of the breed from the Isle of man cannot be denied the term Manx could be viewed as descriptive of most 'bob-tailed' breeds and probably should. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Manx_cat&action=edit&section=new# <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:R Dailey0001|R Dailey0001]] ([[User talk:R Dailey0001#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/R Dailey0001|contribs]]) 17:59, 30 October 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Talk here==

Look, your tabby picture has a higher resolution than the others because it's in the breed table. Stop posting on ''Lachatdelarue's'' talk page about this article, if you've got something to discuss, say it here on the Manx talk page where it belongs. ''Lachatdelarue'' isn't responsible for everything concerning this article and I think you should stop overloading him with tasks; the man has a life. Also, that judge picture is redundant if anything. Please tell me what it shows that is of any importance to the breed Manx? Acknowledge it, you're just proud that your Manx cat won some competition and want to show off; no one cares. You can barely see the cat, the picture is of very tiny resolution, an old lady no one cares about isn't of any importance to the article. It shows more of her than the actual cat. Is the article about her or the cat? She didn't create the breed in any way, no matter how many Manx cats she has judged back and forth. I don't own the article, I don't think I own it either. If anyone does, then it's you; you've done more edits on it than anyone else. You've removed most of the parts everyone else had written. That is what I call "ownage". And why remove felidae from see also just because other cat breed articles don't have it? Do you believe that they are complete? No article here is complete. Even if YOU of all people know what felidae is, not everyone does. People that don't have English as their native language don't know what felines are, let alone felidae. Also, what you consider inaccuracies, doesn't necessarily make it inaccurate. You stated that the Manx syndrome doesn't exist, whilst a bunch of other cat sites allege that it does. I take their word any day over yours, and that just proves how much knowledge you've got about this breed (or lack thereof). I don't care if you're a breeder. I don't care how many years you've put into your life to this breed. Here on Wikipedia, you're just a member that should use very good sources. Using a source like "I'VE BRED THIS BREED FOR NINE YEARS, I KNOW ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS BREED!" etc, isn't a confirmable source. I can make up lies (not saying that you are) about how long I've bred cats, and that I am a scientist of animals etc. The sources I've brought from huge cat sites render your statements about Manx syndrome completely inaccurate. And this [http://www.manxcats.com/myths.htm site] as an accredited source is higly questionable; they're Manx breeders, they are most likely biased/partial toward the breed because they probably love it. I trust impartial cat sites that don't have anything to do with the breed except making food for it more than them. I don't need to breed cats in order to have knowledge about the species, I don't even need to own this cat breed, (pure-breed or not), all I need to do is to read from credible sources like Whiskas.com, so stop feeling superior.

== External links modified ==

P.S. If you're going to whine about someone removing/changing your edits on this article, think of what you've done to all the previous edits.

*[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 12:46, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

As an impartial outsider to this: I don't like the picture of the judge. As important as I'm sure she's considered by enthusiasts, she's simply not notable enough for inclusion in an encyclopedia. Please consider replacing this image with one where a Manx dominates. [[User:The JPS|The JPS]] 13:38, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have just modified 2 external links on [[Manx cat]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/814077329|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:

The JPS, thank you. I hope you don't mind me moving your last post down a little, it's just for fitting the order of this talk page. I personally don't have anything against Karello's pictures. Some of them can be very good, and I've checked her site. If she has any good pictures (and she does), then I think she should use one of those. But seriously, this judge picture, that's what I've been saying, it's not a good picture, or at least not eligible for an encyclopedia. It would be wrong of me to say that she has only made this article worse, no, she hasn't. Thanks to her, this article has been improving and been on the move. But to say that she has only made it better would be a lie in my opinion. Some things better left untouched, because they were good already; ''ain't broke, don't fix it'', you know? I offered her another way to solve this, because I think this is too time-consuming by doing it here... but she basically spat in my face. What am I supposed to do? Also, I don't think it's cool to come with arguments like "I'm a breeder, I know more than you!" etc... sure, in some aspects, she very well might do that. But it's an insult to me and everyone else working on this article. We've got brains too, we can catch up and learn very fast on something we don't know anything about thanks to modern technology like [[Internet]]. Also, the breed table picture is good, but it needs to be cropped a little on the borders for better fitting to the breed table, and it would be very good if she could GFDL it, so it can be more distributed. I've GFDL'ed mine.

*Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/6Evb3KI4s?url=http://www.nzcf.com/sop/Isle%20of%20Man%20SH.pdf to http://www.nzcf.com/sop/Isle%20of%20Man%20SH.pdf

*[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 19:19, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)

*Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/6EvbTXEnc?url=http://catzinc.org/documents/2012STANDARDS.doc to http://catzinc.org/documents/2012STANDARDS.doc

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

:I'm going to agree with JPS on this, but I would also like to see the both of you calm down a bit. Neither of you are being particularly [[Wikipedia:Civility|civil]] to one another and discussing each others personal traits is clearly not moving this issue forward. Try to stick to just the facts of the matter and try don't dwell on who said what.

:Karello, how about replacing the picture of the judge holding the cat with one that features mainly a cat? I'm sure you could pick another pictures that would be more suitable for this article. [[User:Karmosin|Peter Isotalo]] 22:12, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)

:: I agree. Best without the "judge" pic (and remember [[Wikipedia:Civility]]). [[User:Matt Crypto|&mdash; Matt <small>Crypto</small>]] 22:19, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'll do my best to behave from now on, that's a promise.

*[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 00:41, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

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==Comments==

Eliass do not address me, I will not reply as I have stated in prior posts. It's obvious we're on two different levels when it comes to the Manx cat and ones knowledge of it, mine is based on the registered breed and yours is not.

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 19:45, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

To The JPS, Peter Isotalo and Matt Crypto who commented about the picture I posted. It's a very sad day when a picture of one of the oldest living Manx breeders known, judging a perfect example of the Manx is not worthy of being posted in this encyclopedia to represent the breed, herself, the breeder and The Cat Fanciers' Association. She's notable enough to have bred and judged registered Manx cats for more than 40 years, bred more than 35 Grand Champion Manx, be shown on the television show "The Animal Planet", written and assisted writing the breed standard for The Cat Fanciers Association (which is the world's largest cat registy), provided articles for magazines and books on the breed ( I could go on and on on her accomplishments with the Manx) yet isn't worthy to be listed on this site, what standards are you going by here? If people truly do not know anything about this breed as has been stated, what basis do they then have to edit and monitor it's content as to what is acceptable and what is not accurate? Makes one wonder if they don't know what is truth and what is not. I would be more than happy to replace the picture in question ( I have better pictures of Barbara judging my Manx that are higher resolution and show more of the cat like you've suggested) however, I don't think this is about another picture. It's about not allowing registered breeders the chance to teach others the truth that any tailless cat can not be considered a Manx cat. I think you should also know, although I was asked to post a new picture it's already been replaced...guess who! Hint: not me! Are you now saying that I should go replace that picture with mine, where does this end? What's the sense of everyone offering their opinions if what they suggest is not given the chance to be followed through? Who's job is it to make sure what's being posted is accurate and to block or stop people from doing as they were not told to do anyway?

== External links modified ==

As to those who admit they don't know enough about this breed to know what is and isn't correct, now's your chance to learn if you truly wish to. To learn more about the Manx breed cat from someone who has also been a long time breeder for 25 years, has a BS Eng.Phy., MS Ed, is President of the American Manx Club, technical consultant to Karen Commings for Manx Cats: (Complete Pet Owners Manual), (Barons, 1999) and Joanne Mattern for The Manx Cat, (Capstone Press, 2003, as well as being highly respected by Manx breeders and considered an authority on this breed, get in touch with Sherman Ross. His email address is openly displayed on the American Manx Club site. ([e-mail]) I'm sure Sherman would be more than happy to speak to anyone about this breed, address their questions and put to rest the MTYH of Manx Syndrome and other genetic stories about this breed that are incorrect. I'm not concerned about letting people know the Manx breed has genetic limitations, I have warnings about it on my website as well. Reputable breeders would never try to hide, cover up or decieve potential owners from the facts. However, I am very passionate about people knowing the "term" Manx Syndrome is just that, a "term". It is what is used by some as a description for illnesses seen by some in the Manx breed cat. However, the illnesses that are covered by the "term" happen in other breeds of animals as well as humans such as spina bifida, incontinence and rectal prolaspe, they're not only seen in the Manx breed. Therefore, those who use it are misrepresenting the "term" and breed. Also, stating "inbreeding causes shortened tails", is not accurate. Sherman tells me if this were true every registered breed of cat would produce some foreshortened tails. When was the last time you saw a bobtailed Persian, Korat, Occicat, etc? Here's where I'll end my comments, I've given those reading this discussion page enough to think over for now, do get in touch with Sherman he's a wonderful human being, loves the Manx breed and is just as passionate about it as I am.

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

[[User:Karello|Karello]] 06:32, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

I have just modified 6 external links on [[Manx cat]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/820691614|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:

:The point is, Karello, that we all must keep a [[W:NPOV|Wikipedia:Neutral point of view]]. I am not questioning her knowledge and expertise. However, there are many people in the world with knowledge and expertise. Although many of my colleagues have published academic work and are very well known and respected within their fields, they are '''not''' suitable for inclusion in wikipedia. ''As much as an authority they are considered within their field, no one cares outside of it.'' That is what the rest of the internet is for.

*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150819101637/http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/scientists-looking-for-money-for-project-to-decode-the-manx-cat-s-genome-1-7403697 to http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/scientists-looking-for-money-for-project-to-decode-the-manx-cat-s-genome-1-7403697

:I actually don't even care about Manx cats. Although wikipedia usually provides a good source for things I haven't even considered learning about, you and Elias build walls of texts that are very difficult to read. Consider using paragraphs more (I see you are beginning to do so!). Taking a break away from your PC before you hit reply is also a useful tactic.

*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20161003115555/http://www.manxcatgenome.com/2016/04/26/project-update-and-say-hello-to-bonnag/ to http://www.manxcatgenome.com/2016/04/26/project-update-and-say-hello-to-bonnag/

:[[User:The JPS|The JPS]] 07:45, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20161003121537/http://www.manxcatgenome.com/2016/08/02/we-have-bonnags-genome-sequence/ to http://www.manxcatgenome.com/2016/08/02/we-have-bonnags-genome-sequence/

*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20161003125904/http://www.manxcatgenome.com/sequence-my-cat/ to http://www.manxcatgenome.com/sequence-my-cat/

*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20161003103531/http://www.manxcatgenome.com/2016/09/27/were-fundraising-for-genome-number-2/ to http://www.manxcatgenome.com/2016/09/27/were-fundraising-for-genome-number-2/

*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20161003150315/http://www.manxcatgenome.com/the-cats/ to http://www.manxcatgenome.com/the-cats/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

::For starters, I will not contact her (that expert you mentioned) for the reasons I've previously stated why (I suspect her of bias toward Manx because, as you just put it, she loves the breed). I don't know about the rest of the crowd here though. Second, you just said that ''fanciers.com is the largest cat registry'', yet you oppose what it says on other aspects like Manx syndrome and you claim that their Manx article is out of date. Sounds like a glaring contradiction to me. Third, I've had two cats that were born out of inbreeding. They didn't have anything to do with Manx, Japanese Bobtail cats or whatever. One of them had a short tail, and one of their siblings which wasn't mine was completely tailless. This happens with inbreeding. There are cats even born without [[skeleton]] as a direct result of exposure to inbreeding. Like I've said before: ''"inbreeding is crazy; anything can happen."'' I kid you not. Fourth, that old lady didn't fit with the picture here, everyone agreed. Want to perpetuate her history to mankind of everything she has done? Then I suggest you start her own article since she seems to be a ''cat celebrity'', if she's so worthy of it. I doubt anyone would ever read it and care though. Case in point: we can't just fill wikipedia with everything that has a vague connection to the article; that would make the articles very-so-not-interesting to read. There has to be a touch of quality. Fifth, it might be a big issue for you to have registered Manx, it's nothing special to me though. I see cats as cats, registered/pure-breed or not. That is all. Last but not least, don't reply, you're reading anyway and that means I'm somehow reaching you. By the way, why is it so important for you to liquidate the "term" Manx syndrome? Clearly, it exists because the word is found almost everywhere where the breed Manx is mentioned; just search [[Google]] for Manx syndrome and you'll see.

*[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 10:27, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

==Resolution==

Both of your quests for accuracy are being lost in a barrage of personal insults and self promotion of knowledge and experience. Please now do the following. List each dispute within subsections and each '''briefly''' write your take on it and internet sources to support you.

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 01:58, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

<nowiki>

====Fact in dispute here, written neutrally====</nowiki>

<p><nowiki>

:</nowiki>Karello or Elias' version in one or two '''succinct'''<nowiki> sentences maximum. List a maximum of three verifiable sources (ideally from the www) to support your claim. And sign and date them. ~~~~</nowiki>

<p><nowiki>

:</nowiki>The opposing view in one or two '''succinct''' <nowiki>sentences maximum. List a maximum of three verifiable sources (ideally from the www) to support your claim. And sign and date them. ~~~~

</nowiki>

<p>

'''Rules'''

*Keep it away from the personal. You have both asserted your experiences and knowledge. Move on.

*Keep it short and near to the form you want it to be in the article.

==Stimpy==

[[User:The JPS|The JPS]] 08:30, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Stimpy from Ren & Stimpy is a manx cat [[Special:Contributions/14.203.83.38|14.203.83.38]] ([[User talk:14.203.83.38|talk]]) 22:00, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

:If there's a reliable source for that, it could be added under "Fictional Manx cats". But you just asserting it is not a reliable source. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 00:00, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

== Potential plagiarism ==

Certain parts of the history section are word for word copies of the GCCF article on the Manx cat. The only reason I say potential is because this content dates back to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Manx_cat&oldid=585371581 at least 10 years] whilst the GCCF article only appears in 2014 to the best of my ability searching the wayback machine. https://web.archive.org/web/20141031024514/http://www.gccfcats.org/breeds/manx.html

I'm not sure whether the GCCF plagiarised Wikipedia (somewhat unlikely) or the content is plagiarised from the GCCF. It could also be the GCCF took that content from the British Manx Cat Club and so did the original editor for those claims.

====Manx Syndrome====

:'''Elias:''' The threat of Manx Syndrome still exixts [http://www.manx-cats.com/manx-cats-breeders-rescues.htm] [http://www.best-cat-art.com/Manx-cats.html] [http://www.fanciers.com/breed-faqs/manx-faq.html]. [rewrite of [[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 10:42, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Seeing if the content was added by one or different editors would also help resolve the issue as it's highly unlikely for two different users to have plagiarised different parts of the same website. I'll check this myself tomorrow if no one else has done so. [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 09:47, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

:'''Karello:''' ''[Follow the format and write your version here.]''

:{{ping|SMcCandlish}} did work on this article, perhaps he would know? [[User:SilverTiger12|SilverTiger12]] ([[User talk:SilverTiger12|talk]]) 19:29, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

====Manx stumpy kinked tail====

::After checking it seems both of these claims were inserted by him. The passage about Noah was added in 2012 whilst the claim about Lamamarkian folklore was added in 2015.

:'''Elias:''' Short quote: ''"Stumpy Manx have between 1 & 6 tail vertebrae. This is usually straight, but can sometimes be kinked or even curled in a bobtail like fashion."'' Although this is on Manx rats, the very same thing can happen with Manx cats. ''[http://carawatha.tripod.com/manx_rats.htm]'' [[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 12:02, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

::Seems the GCCF may have just plagiarised the Wikipedia article. [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 23:20, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

:::I'll really have to dig deep in the memory cells on this one, but I would not copy directly from an external source without either quoting it, or re-using public-___domain material and and noting that I was doing so, but even with old sources I just quote-mark or block quote them (do it all the time in tartan and Highland dress articles and such). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 23:27, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

:'''Karello:''' ''[Follow the format and write your version here.]''

::::The GCCF Internet Archive link above just goes to a picture page. Their current webpage on this is [https://www.gccfcats.org/getting-a-cat/choosing/cat-breeds/manx/ here], and the wording in question is found in the "History" expandable section. It is definitely just copy-pasted from us. Here are diffs of edits I did in relation to this material on our site [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Manx_cat&diff=next&oldid=524175785][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Manx_cat&diff=next&oldid=524176442], and you can see that I'm adding text organically, not a copy-paste from something. Their version matches ours really, really closely, including my use of "on their home island", which is very distinctive, and my choice of the word "fanciful" (which is pushing the limits of [[MOS:TONE]], but I do remember picking it on purpose as appropriate for this specific context). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 23:39, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

:::::I copied the wrong link for the GCCF but they did have a page with the information you posted. Seems they simply copied Wikipedia for that article so this can be closed/resolved. [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 00:33, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

====Third dispute here====

:'''Elias:'''

:'''Karello:'''