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==Scripting language is a term about purpose and differentiation ==

Scripting languages seem to begin as simple command languages, NOT as or even with the goal of becoming programming languages. The go from being simply a command set to scripting once it becomes useful to replay them from a file, and occasionally grow to the point that someone starts pointing at them and calling them languages instead of command sets.

The Bourne shell is a great example of a simple wrapper around some basic commands and the ability to call other programs that became scriptable (i.e. useful in files) at which point people wrote scripts with it. No one in his right mind would have called sh a full programming language back then, and even applying that label to its modern derivatives (bash, etc) seems excessive.

Hence, I'd say the a scripting language is a command set that offers utility in scripts, but is typically not considering to be a programming language, generally lacks any compiler, and further is often only useful through that which it was designed to manipulate, whether it being Unix commands, some hardware device a given scripting language was designed to control, some embedded subsystem like a graphics package plugin (GIMP, Maya, etc) and so on.

In cases where a "real" programming language is being used for scripting, the differentiator might be whether the normal implementation is being utilized, or some specifically mutated variant. For example, if one can compile normal C modules using gcc and then make them be addons for a software package (say, a graphic package plugin), then that isn't a scripting language - it's a actual language. One the other hand, a C-like language which compiles to some funky bytecode to work inside a specific application's context could be legitimately called a "C-like scripting language".

So essentially scripting languages are context-targeting command sets which might resemble some real computing language, but which for some reason really aren't. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Siodhe|Siodhe]] ([[User talk:Siodhe|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Siodhe|contribs]]) 06:41, 13 March 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I agree that many scripting languages are 'wrappers' and incomplete languages in the sense that many or all scripts written in them rely on external software for their functionality, or are written specifically to access that software's functionality; but it rarely happens that they are just 'sets of commands': we call them languages specifically because they have nontrivial syntax and semantics such as while and if constructs that make a language Turing complete. [[User:Rp|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp|talk]]) 13:30, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

::All languages "rely on external software for their functionality." If you want to read a file in a C program you don't program to the bare hardware (although this has been done), you call the OS to do it for you. It's a matter of degree. As for "context-targeting command sets which might resemble some real computing language, but which for some reason really aren't" this is hard to support too. "Real" programs are written in scripting languages, they're not just DOS .bat files. Being interpreted is a big part, but BASIC, for example isn't (as far as I know) considered to be or used as a scripting language. Maybe look at the edge cases. [[User:Peter Flass|Peter Flass]] ([[User talk:Peter Flass|talk]]) 20:52, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

:Neither [[Perl]] nor [[Rexx]] began as a simple command language. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 13:20, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

==Scripting Language: is not an extension language==

I would split the extension language from script language: the term might not be defined and clear.

While the porpoise here is clear, I indeed would not use it in the definition of scripting language.

In some cases it is the same but in other it might not be understood in the same way.

More over: I would go in the direction of reducing the number of terms.

Because extension language is not that used I will not promote it.

We might even argue about the meaning.

Or: extension language is an hoax. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/84.75.172.104|84.75.172.104]] ([[User talk:84.75.172.104|talk]]) 21:03, 26 February 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I agree: the term ''scripting language'' is used for languages that are rarely used as extension languages for applications: one of its meanings is as a synonym for ''interpreted language''. So the first sentences should be changed to express this. [[User:Rp|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp|talk]]) 19:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

==Scripting: Definition - an idea==

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:: I whole-heartedly agree. I was using [[C shell|csh]]/[[tcsh]] (back when [[Unix shell|sh]] was still relatively primitive) long before the Internet or CGI, to automate system maintenance. [[User:BMJ-pdx|BMJ-pdx]] ([[User talk:BMJ-pdx|talk]]) 19:54, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

==Interpretation versus Compilation==

"Scripting programming languages are computer programs that are interpreted not compiled."

This is clearly incorrect, in many ways. A programming language is not an interpreted language or a compiled one; programming languages are interpreted or compiled by computer programs. You can compile or interpret C, you can compile or interpret Basic. The issue of whether or not a programming language is a <i>scripting</i> programming language is orthogonal. The real distinction is that a scripting programming language is good for scripting some system. For instance, C is a good language for scripting Unix. So is Perl.

It's also worth mentioning (since this section seems relevant) that, depending what Lisp dialect you're talking about, Lisp is *not* an interpreted language. Common Lisp, for example, has had a compiler for a while. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/208.102.133.40|208.102.133.40]] ([[User talk:208.102.133.40|talk]]) 16:19, 27 May 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

[1 minute later]: Oh, someone beat me to it, while I was writing the above. Cool.

:Yeah, I fixed it, but the issues aren't 100% orthogonal, either: Scripting languages ''are'' more often interpreted than compiled, and non-scripting languages are more often compiled than interpreted, for the good reason that their syntaxes are designed to make one or the other easier. Anyone who uses the term "scripting language" in even the remotest connection to C is making the term utterly meaningless. C is the ultimate anti-scripting language. Yes, there have been various attempts to interpret C with various levels of success, but all of them are awkward and incomplete because C just isn't designed that way; it expects a compiler and a linker to resolve things. The text I think reflects this now, but if you can think of a better way to say that, I'd be pleased. --[[User:Lee Daniel Crocker|Lee Daniel Crocker]]

::"Scripting lnaguage" in Oxford's ''A Dictionary of Computing'' says it is, "A programming language that can be used to write programs to control an application or class of applications, typically interpreted." "Script" in the same publication reads, "A file containing commands or other actions that could have been entered from the keyboard." "CGI (Common Gateway Interface)" in ''World of Computer Science'' backs up that view: <blockquote>A CGI application would traditionally be described as a ''script,'' rather than as a true ''program''. The distinction is to a certain extent semantic--a "script" is thought to be any application that is created merely by the line-by-line interpretation of code in some functional programming language like Perl or Python. A "program" in the classical sense is, on the other hand, code written in a language such as C or C++ which has to be compiled to obtain a binary (executable) that is then run; the program itself cannot be run on any system.</blockquote> We need to emphasize this characteristic. The corresponding Spanish wiki article is called "Lenguaje interpretado" (Interpreted Language). Even after I read those articles about scripts, I had a very hard time understanding the introduction for this entry because it is so ambiguous. It also reads like it was written for a programmer to read. The introduction should be the simplest part of an entry.--[[User:HQCentral|HQCentral]] 12:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

==Article title: Script(ing) language?==

Shouldn't the title named simply "script language"? It may be [[misnomer]] but more recognized I guess. -- [[User:TakuyaMurata|Taku]] 02:10 Mar 22, 2003 (UTC)

:Yes, this article should be named "[[scripting language]]". That article currently redirects here. A while ago somebody added "programming language" to the titles of a bunch of articles. The best way to change that would be to delete the redirect page so this page can be moved cleanly. So, if any admin wants to do that... -- [[User:Merphant|Merphant]]

* I agree, so I moved it. Not an admin tho so history will look weird. [[User:Elfguy|Elfguy]] 20:37, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

==Scripting vs General p-languages==

Perhaps the vague difference between a scripting and general purpose language is merely that it is possible to write and run a "script" without any command-line compilers, makefiles, or other "developer tools". For example, Scheme48 is a runtime for the general purpose language Scheme, but scsh is a scripting language using a hacked Scheme48 runtime that supports the "#!" shell syntax. By the way, Mondrian is a strongly typed "scripting" language. Also, the page uses "scripting" in the definition of scripting language, which is circular and not terribly illuminating.

--Anon 19:42, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Coupla good sources on complexity of defining scripting languages:

- http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~pjj/cs211/langdes/script.html<br>

- http://www.softpanorama.org/Scripting/index.shtml

I expanded description on main scripting page to fit in some of the blurriness elaborated at those links. Basically, we are talking about a field of applied engineering and active computer science research, still evolving, hard to pin down; lots of schools of thought.

--Stevelu, Feb 25 2004

:Nice work :-) -- [[User:Arvindn|Arvindn]] 05:19, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If a ''scripting language'' is meant to mean a language which is chiefly used to control or connect other programs -- the old sense of a ''job-control language'' -- then whole swaths of the listed languages do not fit.

Dylan is a general-purpose programming language. Perl was originally a text-processing language like awk, but is now mostly a general-purpose one. Scheme is a family of educational and general-purpose languages. Guile and Lua are general extension languages, intended to be ''embedded'' in applications written in another language. QuakeC and ZZT-OOP are similarly extension languages, but specialized for particular games (just as AutoLisp is an extension language for one particular application, AutoCAD). PHP is arguably an extension language for Apache Web servers.

Looking over the list, it seems to me as if these can be divided into four categories -- no, five. ''Job control languages'' are chiefly used to direct the input and output of other programs, such as Unix shells, JCL, and REXX. ''Text processing'' languages are used to format text or produce reports, such as awk, sed, and (originally) Perl. ''Embedded extension languages'' differ from job-control languages in that they can access the internal state of applications designed to use them, such as Guile, AppleScript, and VBScript. ''Application-specific extension languages'' are those embedded in a single application, such as QuakeC (in Quake), ZZT-OOP (in ZZT), AutoLisp (in AutoCAD), or PHP (in Apache). The fifth category is ''dynamic languages called "scripting languages" by people who don't like dynamic languages'' -- such as Python, Scheme, Dylan, or modern Perl. --[[User:Fubar Obfusco|FOo]] 13:52, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

: Rexx better fits your definition of ''Embedded extension languages''. There's a well-defined interface for imbedding it in an application. XEDIT, of course, is the model, but it's used in lots of other apps also. [[User:Peter Flass|Peter Flass]] ([[User talk:Peter Flass|talk]]) 20:56, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

== Scripting vs. Programming ==

(Sorry for the crude formatting, I'm a Wikipedia novice.)

A bunch of us at META Group have been discussing this distinction, so I thought I'd post some of my thoughts here:

Ousterhout (http://home.pacbell.net/ouster/scripting.html) in his article on scripting, which I highly recommend reading thoroughly, nails the sence of "gluing" that distinguishes system programming languages (SPLs) from scripting languages (SLs): "System programming languages were designed for building data structures and algorithms from scratch, starting from the most primitive computer elements such as words of memory. In contrast, scripting languages are designed for gluing: they assume the existence of a set of powerful components and are intended primarily for connecting components together."

It is this distinction between "building from scratch from primitive elements" and "building from already built-up components" that is fundamental. Yes, you can add a rich library or framework to an SPL (think Unix libraries or MSFT MFC), but then you are still stuck with a language (eg C++) with a set of powerful but complicated capabilities for "building from scratch from primitive elements". If all one wants to do is to exploit the rich library of already developed data structures and algorithms (DSAs), and does not want to add any more, then the SPL is overkill.

Flex and Flash are perfect examples of this. The geniuses at MM have already created the DSAs for UI building and animation, respectively--Flex and Flash just let you compose them. If you want to design new DSAs for UI building and animation, then don't use Flex and Flash.

In short, SLs are designed for composing existing DSAs for a specific use. SPLs are designed for defining new DSAs for general use.

I also think references to scripting languages just being for automating what one would do at a keyboard are obsolete. They are used for an incredibly wide variety of uses. In fact, given this definitional distinction between "composition" vs "definition", I would claim that BPEL (Business Process Execution Language) is a scripting language for scripting together existing Web services.

:It should be noted that Ousterhout didn't claim that his "dichotomy" [[partition of a set|partition]]ed the set of programming languages. I quote:

::''There are many other attributes of programming languages besides strength of typing and the level of programming, and there are many interesting languages that can't be characterized cleanly as a system programming language or a scripting language. For example, the Lisp family of languages lies somewhere between scripting and system programming, with some of the attributes of each. Lisp pioneered concepts such as interpretation and dynamic typing that are now common in scripting languages, as well as automatic storage management and integrated development environments, which are now used in both scripting and system programming languages.'' [http://home.pacbell.net/ouster/scripting.html]

:I have to wonder if what Ousterhout is really describing when he classes C, C++ and Java as "systems", Perl and Tcl as "scripting", and Lisp as "neither" is not the languages' positive features but their ''deficiencies''. His "systems" languages are ones that lack powerful tools for abstraction -- so their users lean on external scripting and macro packages. His "scripting" languages are ones that nobody has written good native-code compilers for yet -- so they are slow; in order to get good performance you have to use modules written in compiled languages like C.

:But Lisp is strangely in the middle -- modern Lisp systems (like [http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/ SBCL] for instance) are fast and compiled, but have powerful abstraction tools. So they don't fit either category. Hmm. --[[User:Fubar Obfusco|FOo]] 04:57, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

-----

Old first paragraph of Description section:

''Computer languages are created with varying degrees of abstraction, that is, the extent to which multiple smaller operations are combined into single named operations. Those languages that tend to introduce the most abstraction are typically called scripting languages. Another use of the term is to describe "small" languages, where the over all functionality of the language is limited to very specific tasks.''

Here's why I replaced it:

This paragraph is erroneous, chiefly for the reasons I have given in the earlier discussion above. The existence of powerful abstraction mechanisms in a language is not correlated with its usefulness for scripting. For instance, [[Common Lisp]] is a language with more powerful abstraction mechanisms than virtually any other, but it is not very suitable for scripting since it is not very good at interfacing with foreign components. On the other side, [[Perl]] is a language which is quite suited to scripting, and which has many powerful mechanisms built it, but not particularly good ''abstraction'' mechanisms.

Scripting, the connection of existing external program components which may be written in different languages, is a specific application. Some languages (Perl, Tcl) are well-suited to it. Others (C, Lisp) are not particularly suited for it. Despite the blatant misreading of Ousterhout's work which led to the common perception of "Ousterhout's dichotomy", ''there is no partition'' of languages into "those with strong abstraction mechanisms that are good at scripting and are implemented with slow interpreters" and "those with weak abstraction mechanisms that are no good at scripting and are implemented with fast compilers". --[[User:Fubar Obfusco|FOo]] 02:35, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

:OK, good stuff. My primary concern had been the original sentence, which was just a self-referencing statement, "Languages that are used specifically or designed primarily for scripting are called scripting languages". By "abstraction", I guess I was more or less thinking about what you said, working with "pre-existing components," etc. (And I confess to the terrible crime of having only skimmed over most of the discussion on this page prior to editing the article, sorry). <tt>[[User:AdmN|AdmN]] 03:01, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)</tt>

-----

“A scripting language, script language or extension language is a programming language”. In my opinion it is conflicting with the wiki article "programming language" and "programming". The only way I see that scripting falls under programming language is if you change the wiki article to generalize what programming is. Then you can state that scripting is a programming language as is system programming language. I believe the correct wording should be type/category of programming language. So in other words Scripting is a category of Programming Languages as would be System Programming Language. If you define programming to its basic means (not necessarily relating to computers), then the definition to programming is the act of planning or a series of steps to be carried out or goals to be accomplished. Then by that definition Scripting is a programming language just as System Programming Languages would be.[[User:Tekeek|Tekeek]] ([[User talk:Tekeek|talk]]) 08:15, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

-----

Programming and Scripting are COMPLETELY two SEPERATE things. Imagine, if you will, the OS of the computer as a layer of code that interpretes what the CPU says. Programming languages, like C++, manipulate what the OS does by creating and changing variables, functions, etc; thus, the Programming language makes another layer. The Programming language relies on the layer, or framework, of the OS. The Programmer can create their own functions. The Scripting language manipulates the layer of the Programming language to manipulate its functions. The Program tells the OS what to do, and the Script tells the Program what to do. Hardware → OS → Programming language → Script. [[User:Tuxmascot|Tuxmascot]] ([[User talk:Tuxmascot|talk]]) 18:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

-----

To summarize, a System Programming Language (SPL) can create things from the most basic forms of memory. While, Scripting Languages (SL) use what the SPL defined and cause the program to react.

An analogy I came up with would be: An SPL creates the motherboard of the computer, while the SL adds the CPU.

Another one as well: An SPL is an Actor in a movie, and the SL makes the script and tells the actor what to say.

[[User:Tuxmascot|Tuxmascot]] ([[User talk:Tuxmascot|talk]]) 17:54, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

==The scripting language question==

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:#If you define ''scripting'' as ''writing code in a scripting language'', and ''scripting language'' as a language as listed, then you miss the original sense of ''scripting'', namely, automating tasks by writing scripts in a special ''extension'' language. This is what motivated the term ''scripting'', so it must be mentioned when the term is defined, even though that term is now applied more broadly.

:So I agree the present definition is lacking, but your proposal also has drawbacks. If you can think of a way out, that will be great. [[User:Rp|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp|talk]]) 17:36, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

== Any recommendations for literature on developing proprietary scripting language? ==

Anyone have literature/web recommendations detailing what decisions to make when designing your own scripting language for a single piece of software / single purpose? For example, what syntax would be efficient for a new MUD engine, etc... --[[User:I run like a Welshman|I run like a Welshman]] 09:53, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:A pretty common thing to do is to make bindings to an existing scripting language such as [[Tcl]], [[Lua programming language|Lua]], or [[Guile programming language|Guile]]. This has all sorts of advantages -- you don't have to come up with your own language, and your users have at least some chance of having heard of the language before. --[[User:Fubar Obfusco|FOo]] 13:44, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:I am working on some articles regarding bond trading, particularly collateralized mortgage obligations. The big investment banks who do this have generally developed proprietary languages to describe the transactions (as the most natural description is in procedural terms). These languages are more analagous to a macro language developed within an applications (such as emacs lisp, or (I hate to say it) the version of basic in Excel) than something like bash, but still might be applicable.

:Do you (anyone) think that describing that technology would be appropriate here? [[User:Mpearl|Morris]] 13:54, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

== recommended ==

"In most modern systems, the latter case is very seldom recommendable, since one or more suitable script languages is usually available."

Of course it doesn't make any difference, unless you're porting the platform between systems and need a virtual machine to go along with it. But how many platforms really need virtual machines? Almost any virtual machine, anyway, can be shrunk so that a good inter-platform compiler will have no trouble building its scripts. --[[User:VKokielov|VKokielov]] 15:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

:The essential advantages of writing scripts in C are two: speed of execution and the absolution of the headache you get when you write your own compilers. A reliable architecture of abstraction - COM, for instance - allows the house to implement a reliable communications interface. I also see two drawbacks, viz.: compiled languages run amok, and end-users don't usually have compilers. Neither is an obstacle when the system in question is to be scripted in-house. --[[User:VKokielov|VKokielov]] 21:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

== JavaScript as a Programming language not a Scripting language ==

".. JavaScript is a very influential standard, supported by virtually every browser on the market."

This line is referring to JavaScript as a Scripting Language, however the name of the language is confusing. JavaScript is in fact a full

programming language. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/81.179.250.255|81.179.250.255]] ([[User talk:81.179.250.255|talk]]) 15:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

It fits the definition (language to control/instrument an application, usually in a language other than the application itself) perfectly. (instruments the sandbox of the browser app.

[[Special:Contributions/88.159.64.210|88.159.64.210]] ([[User talk:88.159.64.210|talk]]) 18:35, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

JavaScript, althouth powerful, is not a programming language. JavaScript can be compared to C# because they both have something in common. C# and JavaScript all run off of a virtual machine. The language simulates the OS and the programmer then manipulates it. C# runs off of the .NET framework and JavaScript does, basically, the same thing. Must I also imply the name of it, JavaSCRIPT? JavaScript can appear to be a programming language, but merely simulates an OS and the programmer manipulates it. [[User:Tuxmascot|Tuxmascot]] ([[User talk:Tuxmascot|talk]]) 17:27, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

== XSLT listed as a server-side scripting language ==

Shouldn't XSLT be listed under both (or neither) of the "Web programming languages" subcategories? According to the [[XSLT]] article, "XSLT processor implementations fall into two main categories: server-side, and client-side."

Most modern browsers can apply XSL transformations to XML documents, so it seems inaccurate to have it listed only under the server-side category. -- [[User:Krilnon|Krilnon]] 01:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

== Is ActionScript a scripting language? ==

For instance: [http://www.mtasc.org/ MTASC ] is an ActionScript 2.0 Compiler. It compiles an ActionScript Source Code to SWF ByteCodes. No Just In Time interpretation. [[User:Fırat KÜÇÜK|Fırat KÜÇÜK]] 20:50, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

:"Scripting" really describes a ''purpose'' to which the language is put, rather than an implementation strategy. Given a language specification, a language can be implemented in many ways, including an interpreter, a JIT compiler, or a traditional compiler. --[[User:Fubar Obfusco|FOo]] 21:14, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

:: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ActionScript#Scripting_Language.3F : Same discussion. ActionScript is more similar to Java than JavaScript. [[User:Fırat KÜÇÜK|Fırat KÜÇÜK]] 04:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

== Is Java Server Pages a Scripting Language? ==

We can use [[JavaServer_Pages#Scripting_elements|scripting]] inside a Java Server Pages but JSP is not a scripting language. JSP code is compiled by [[JSP compiler]]. Infact a JSP file is a compiled [[Java Servlet]]. [[User:Fırat KÜÇÜK|Fırat KÜÇÜK]] 05:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

== zeroes and ones ==

Isn't the "clarification" in the into more muddying the waters than clarifying them ?

It claims that scripts are distinguished from programs in that programs consits of ones and zeroes. What then, pray tell, does scripts consist of ?

And is a "script" any program written in a "scripting language" ? If so, does this mean a completely normal GUI spreadsheet-program is a "script" if it happens to be written in Python ?

Is C a "scripting language" if anyone cares to sit down and write an interpreter for it ? I'm sure it's been done repeatedly already...

I think the next paragraph is much better. A script is a script because of what function it performs, not because of what language it happens to be coded in. And a scripting-language is one used for creating scripts. Which yes, means that all languages are sometimes used as scripting-languages. --[[User:Eivind|Eivind Kjørstad]] 13:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

== Scripting Not a technical term ==

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:Maybe scripting is not a perfect term for a language, but for an activity it is a precise description. [[User:Manorainjan|Manorainjan]] ([[User talk:Manorainjan|talk]]) 21:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

:Sort of agree. Scripting is a subjective view. There is a wide-grey line between what is a script and what is something other than a script. For example, a Python script that's 10 lines long I would call a script without hesitation. If I write an application in Python that involves multiple directories of files, I'd argue that is not a script. Somewhere between those two extremes lines a diving line. ... The activity of scripting has the same fuzziness. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 16:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

== [[Linden Scripting Language]] ==

Although low knowledge + high boldness is a common recipe for disaster on Wikipedia, I've ignorantly + [[WP:BOLD|boldly]] added [[Linden Scripting Language]] to the list of Application-specific languages. If this is a problem, somebody please fix it. Thanks. -- [[User:Writtenonsand|Writtenonsand]] ([[User talk:Writtenonsand|talk]]) 03:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

== Historical context ==

I'm considering rewriting this article. Scripting languages can only really be understood from the historical context of the automation of computer operations, which were formerly carried out by human operators. Here's my version of how it happened. Comments and corrections welcome.

The first interactive shells developed to enable remote operation of the first timesharing systems generated a demand for scripting, to relieve the human operator of the tedium of re-entering sequences of commands at a teletype keyboard, so from there were developed JCL macros, the precursors of what we now know as shellscripts. In a parallel development, larger more complex applications developed embedded scripting facilities, at first very rudimentary, to facilitate batch operation.

So strictly speaking, by history and by purpose, embedded languages used for the scripting and extension of applications are distinct from scripting shells associated with computer automation, though there are close affinities.

As scripting facilities approached Turing-completeness, the skills and techniques developed in application programming were brought to bear. The nascent scripting languages acquired variables, sequencing, iteration, decisions, procedures, and even modules. In time some embedded scripting languages became complex enough to be used to extend the application (Emacs is one classic example still in daily use).

General purpose computer scripting became highly developed on UNIX platforms, with a massive proliferation of general purpose shells (Bourne shell, C shell, and their derivatives). The "programming tool" approach of UNIX led to the development of more specialized tools such grep, sed, and awk, which led in turn to the development of perl, Larry Wall's highly successful attempt to improve and supplant the limitations of such tools, which went on to become one of the most widespread scripting tools.

Some mainstream languages, such as Lisp, adapted well to embedding within applications by providing high expressive power in a small footprint. Others, such as Tcl, were specifically designed as general purpose embedded scripting languages. Other systems such as VBA (Visual Basic for Applications) provided strong integration with the automation facilities of the underlying system.

Although historically most scripting languages have been interpretive rather than compiled languages, applications requiring speed require fast extensions. [[QuakeC]], developed for use in scripting the Quake game engine, is an example of a scripting language that is compiled to bytecode which is interpreted by a bytecode interpreter or virtual machine. This isn't exactly new. In the seventies, a common system command and scripting language of DEC's RSTS/E operating system prior to version 9 of the O/S was Basic, compiled to byte-code.

Early web servers generated non-static web content in response to an incoming query by launching a program or shellscript to handle each individual task, but the relatively high cost of launching a process for each query led to the development of server systems such as ASP, PHP, and JSP, which remained memory resident and, of course, came with their own scripting languages specialised for the purpose of serving web content. In using modules scripted in Java, JSP provides a highly sophisticated software engineering infrastructure to web-based scripting.

We should mention keyboard-based and GUI-based macro languages, I suppose, though these tend to be very rudimentary. They can be used for automation of repetitive tasks, and have often been provided as an extra scripting language in applications where they are likely to be useful even to unsophisticated users. --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 15:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

: Yikes, I omitted javascript! --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 15:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

::I've gone ahead and cleaned up the article, concentrating on removal of the listcruft while ensuring that the more significant scripting languages are mentioned in context. --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 16:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Good job. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.202.196.75|71.202.196.75]] ([[User talk:71.202.196.75|talk]]) 22:44, 18 November 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::::Great, you already mentioned the programming tools in Unix, I remember in a book by Kernighan and Ritchie or maybe Pike, (I do not remember well the title and authors.)

::::That book had many interesting examples of JCL scripts, needed to open files, assign them to the channels opened by Fortran, and RatFor a rational Fortran, a preprocessor which added structured statements to Fortran-IV. Those are nice examples of scripts which programmers wrote to automate routine tasks as schedule jobs, open and close files, send a message to operator to mount tapes or disks, use the printer. Those JCL scripts where interpreted and very simple.

::::It also had some examples of systems programming, like the grep program.

== Scripting engine? ==

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''[[Scripting engine]]'' redirect to ''[[scripting language]]'', though the term is not explained. Can someone give more information about it? Thanks, --[[User:Abdull|Abdull]] ([[User talk:Abdull|talk]]) 15:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

:I have altered the {{no redirect|Scripting engine}} redirect to [[Template processor]] based on [https://stackoverflow.com/a/1692561/22673230 this stack answer's] use of the term. [[User:Tule-hog|Tule-hog]] ([[User talk:Tule-hog|talk]]) 03:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

== "Scripting languages are nearly always embedded in the applications they control" ==

The article currently says "scripting languages are nearly always embedded in the applications they control". I think this statement only applies to some of the [[scripting language#Types of scripting languages|types of scripting languages]]. And I don't see how the reference added [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scripting_language&diff=303533306&oldid=303530959 here] supports the claim. [[User:Open4D|Open4D]] ([[User talk:Open4D|talk]]) 00:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

:I deleted it. It is plainly false. [[User:Softarch Jon|Softarch Jon]] ([[User talk:Softarch Jon|talk]]) 14:30, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

== Nah ya, History and sex appeal! Scripting language is an ossimoron ==

I had a very quick look to the comments above.

Scripting has definitely an historical background in IT.

Indeed, language on its own is also historical but in the new IT era got

two meanings: programming it and defining it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110.

I think that there is an oxymoron in the terms. Actually this page should not exists.

At present I am even not sure if the probably equivalent: "script languages" makes any

better meaning.

My opinion is to quit this discussion and move it somewhere else. (The content is indeed

valuable, so we should find a moving strategy)

"Scripting language" is a contradiction in terms. Scripting assumes a language on its own

and the term scripting cannot be a language. This page should be removed in favor of:

(out of my mind, no check)

- Scripting

- Operating System (You might be surprised but the old OS was not able to do anything: scripting was a must)

- Interpreted_vs_compiled

The rest if philosophy, which can stay, eventually or speculation. We do not speculate.

Sorry, I do not. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/84.75.172.104|84.75.172.104]] ([[User talk:84.75.172.104|talk]]) 21:05, 11 March 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Remove This Page ==

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:I feel this discussion stems from an inadequate introduction in the article. I have attempted to improve it. [[User:Rp|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp|talk]]) 13:27, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

::Nope. The issue is the article title. Should be 'script'. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 16:30, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

== Disabling Scripting? ==

I attempted to read the article and I might have missed something. I would like to see something about disabling scripting and what that actually means for the layperson as I am fairly (ok quite) ignorant about programming. I do know how to disable scripting on my computer, but I don't know how that will affect my internet useage if I do that. I do use IE and I like it, so comments like 'use Firefox' doesn't cut it. Is there an article that describes what disabling scripting does already on Wikipedia? Please let me knwo. Oh, and there was news about disabling Java. I decided to use the 'prompt me' option. Will that still leave me open to hackers or am I protected?[[User:Mylittlezach|Mylittlezach]] ([[User talk:Mylittlezach|talk]]) 18:18, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

:I'm afraid your concerns are too specific to be dealt with in this article. The scripting you're referring to is one (important) application of scripting, namely the use of a scripting language in a web browser, while this article is about scripting in general. Your concern is about security implications of allowing such scripting. It would be worthwhile to include a discussion of these things into the article, but your questions would still be too specific for Wikipedia. Many other sites offer help with such specific questions. [[User:Rp|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp|talk]]) 10:10, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== Article is unfocused ==

It appears this article intends to go deep into the world of scripting and in this attempt a person wanting to understand this concept does not get a focused introduction. The article tries to be so detailed that eventually the basic concept of what a script is does not appear in focus and in-front. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nayumadehrafti|Nayumadehrafti]] ([[User talk:Nayumadehrafti|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nayumadehrafti|contribs]]) 10:57, 20 July 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: How can it be improved? [[User:Rp|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp|talk]]) 11:42, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

== Focus on Script and Scripting! ==

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:I am not sure the present article is so bad. What is wrong with it? In IT, we have to work with the terms we have, as fuzzy as they are; 'scripting language' is a common term, as ambiguous as it is, so it must be defined here. How can the article be improved? If you see an outline for a different article that would provide a much clearer explanation, why don't you post it here? The types of scripts you mention are covered in the article, but only in general terms. Perhaps it would be good to add a few specific uses of scripting languages with examples? [[User:Rp|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp|talk]]) 19:42, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

:Agree. The term 'scripting language' and every other category on [[List of programming languages by type]] are almost valueless. What scripting language means is: the language used to write a script where script means a relatively short and simple sequence of instructions (to automate...). Theoretically, I can use any language to write a script. There may not exist a tool today where a particular language can be used for scripting, but someone could write that tool! I've used a C interpreter even though most consider C compiled. I can write a complex application with Python that I would argue is not a script. I think all languages fall into all categories. If we're going to talk about implementations that exist, then the story is different. But I think trying to document all existing implementations is a foolhardy and low value goal. ... yes ''scripting language'' is a term in the world that people use. But, just because something is a term does not mean it should have an article. I suggest that 'scripting language' should redirect to 'script'. So, yeah rename this page. I think the redirect will prevent howling. ... and yes, same should done for every other ''xxx language'' article. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 16:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

== The difference is historical, but remains in the use of the terms. Optimization is a key issue to classify ==

A script automates a task, while a program involves a more interesting challenge like solving a problem, develop and implement an algorithm.

The reason of this use is historical, because in earl days, interpreted languages were limited with very simple types, while some compiled languages had some structured data types, like arrays in Fortran or records in Cobol. Pascal had arrays, sets, records and variant types! and structured statements, wow!.

Today many scripting languages are very rich, but their use remains to be more interpreted than compiled, although the efficiency and use of virtual machines made that difference minimal.

Maybe a key issue to classify today languages, is how code is optimized.

Are the programs optimized before executing them, or are interpreted line by line?

== Merge with "Interpreted language" ==

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::I don't think a markup language (like HTML) is interpreted. It's not compiled, but interpreted implies a statement-by-statement sequential process. A markup file doesn't have statements; kinda has to be consumed whole; it's data, not code. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 15:53, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

:I think most scripts are run via an interpreter. But scripting does not imply use of an interpreter. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 16:08, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

== What is the example of high level language? ==

Java,c,c++,python,basic [[Special:Contributions/103.167.233.41|103.167.233.41]] ([[User talk:103.167.233.41|talk]]) 01:37, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

==Wiki Education assignment: Linguistics in the Digital Age==

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:I think the edit ought to be reverted. No doubt there are scripting languages to control hardware. What's worse is that neither formulation covers all uses of the term ''scripting language''. Perl and Python are scripting languages, but must Perl and Python programs do not control or automate systems, they convert input to output or constitute standalone interactive applications or they do whatever else software can be used to do. [[User:Rp|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp|talk]]) 18:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

::You are pondering what a script is. Me too. IMO not all Python code is script. I've used sophisticated GUI applications written in Python. That is hardily what I think of a script. I think the hallmark of a script is that it's relatively simple; has little branching; probably no multiprocessing. And it generally automates an otherwise manual process. It need not drive an application per se or hardware, but it does operations that otherwise a person would do in an less automatic way. ... Therefore I think script is subjective. ... Is Python a scripting language? I guess so since you can write a relatively simple list of instructions to automate an otherwise manual process. But I don't think of Python as ''primarily'' a scripting language. It's a powerful, capable language one can use to write almost any application. Calling it a scripting language is selling it short. I think of a scripting language as something that's so limited that it can't be used to write more sophisticated apps. For example, Windows batch (command) is a scripting language. It's basically not possible to write a non-trivial app with it. I don't think it's useful to put Python in the same category as Windows batch. ... I think my point is that you are both right. A script can control hardware and a script need not control an application. The article should embody those ideas. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 20:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

== Rename ==

Looking at the comments, I see this is controversial. This article should _not_ be called ''scripting language''. I propose ''Script (programming)'' or ''Script (computing)'' ... Script (''something''). And 'scripting language' should redirect to it.

The term 'scripting language' and every other category on [[List of programming languages by type]] are almost valueless. What scripting language means is: a language used to write a script where script means a relatively short and simple sequence of instructions (for automation...). Theoretically, I can use any language to write a script. There may not exist a tool today where a particular language can be used for scripting, but someone could write that tool! I've used a C interpreter even though most consider C compiled. I can write a complex application with Python that I would argue is not a script. I think all languages fall into all categories. If we're going to talk about implementations that exist, then the story is different. But I think trying to document all existing (and past!) implementations is a foolhardy and low value. ... yes ''scripting language'' is a term in the world that people use. But, just because something is a term does not mean it should have an article. ... Putting an adjective in front of a noun does not always make for a noteworthy phrase.

And yes, similar should done for every other ''xxx language'' article. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 16:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

:I disagree. An article about scripts will describe the properties, typical use, etc. of a script, but it may not go very much into the characteristics of a language that make it suitable for scripting. So while this could definitely be done, the title suggests a different emphasis. [[User:Rp|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp|talk]]) 09:16, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

::@[[User:Rp|Rp]] "the title suggests a different emphasis": Exactly my intent. I agree that there are different things to say about ''script'' vs ''scripting language''. But, I don't know whether they both deserve an article. ... I think script and scripting are way more central concepts than scripting language. Thing is, this article already covers the ''script'', ''scripting'' and ''scripting language'' concepts, but I think it's awkward that the article is titled based on the least central concept: the language. IMO, the script (and scripting) is the story. The language is (just) an enabling tool. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 12:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

:The problem is that, historically, languages have been labelled as scripting languages if either

:*The syntax was designed to make issuing host commands natural, e.g., [[Bourne shell]], [[CLIST]], [[REXX]]

:*The impetus for designing the language was writing scripts, e.g., [[Perl]]

:This is a case where usage isn't well correlated to the syntax and semantics of the language, but depends largely on its history. Should Wikepedia be imposing a more logical nomenclature, or sticking to the actual usage in the literature? Wouldn't the former be [[WP:OR|OR]]? -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 12:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

::@[[User:Chatul|Chatul]] What's the problem? You list two items that are both about scripts. What is the distinction you are trying to highlight? Bourne shell was designed to write shell scripts. Perl was designed to write Perl scripts. I think there is a complexity difference between Bourne shell and Perl, but how is that relevant to whether they both are designed and used for writing scripts? ... A scripting language is a language which a script can be written in, right? ... I'm not familiar with [[CLIST]] but the article does not contain the text "script" ... not familiar with [[Rexx]] but it seems to be a scripting language used for writing scripts. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 13:05, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

:::The problem is that there is a camp that wants to restrict the term to simple languages, while in the literature the term is not so limited.

:::CLIST is an IBM language that IBM originally developed to script [[time sharing option|TSO]] commands and subcommands. CLIST uses & in roughly the same way that Unix shells use $. The [[OS/360]] version of CLIST was not Turing complete, but IBM greatly extended it in [[MVS|OS/VS2]] Release 3.6.

:::[[VM (operating system)|VM]] includes applications implemented with thousands of lines of REXX code, much larger than what is commonly thought of as a script. Similarly, many Perl programs are far from trivial. In both cases they are considered scripting languages due to their original uses more than technical details. -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 15:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

::::Um. what term is that some camp wants to restrict? "script" or "scripting language" or both?

::::I assume by camp you mean WP editors? Or do you mean citable sources?

::::You miss my point about CLIST. My point is: why do you mention CLIST when its article does not say its a scripting language or mention 'script'? ... I guess you are saying that it is in fact a scripting language. So, I'd say its article should say that. But, we're diverging from the central idea here.

::::As for REXX I don't get the point you're driving at. And it's not important to my point.

::::What are the problems you are talking about. I would like to know and it would be good to add to an article about script / scripting language.

::::But all this misses my point. My point is that ''script'' is a much more central concept than ''scripting language''. All the things are talking about are surely part of the nexus that is script, scripting and scripting language. My point is that the article should be named by the most central term; not the least central term.

::::You seem to think that since there is controversy about what constitutes a scripting language that the article cannot be called 'script'. I do not see how the former implies the latter.

::::IMO, the article is lacking a description of this controversy, ''and'' it should be titled 'script'.

:::::[[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 15:57, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

:::::I've seen controvercy over the meaning of ''scripting language''; I haven't seen controversy over the meaning of ''script''. By ''camp'' I mean editors, not sources.

:::::The point on Perl and Rexx is that the term ''scripting language;; has historically been applied to somewhat sophisticated languages.

:::::I take responsibility for what I actually wrote, not for what somebody tacks on to my words. I expressed no opinion on whether there should be separate articles on ''Script (computing) '' and ''scripting language'', nor on whether the second should exist at all. I addressed only the issue of what the scope should be of an article called ''scripting language''. -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 14:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

::::::I find it wise to take responsibility for what people understand me to say. ... I created this topic about renaming this article. If you are replying to my topic, then I assume you have an opinion on the topic. But you say you have no opinion on that, so, I don't know what you are driving at. ... I seem to have touched a nerve. Sorry about that. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 15:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

::::I think that a clear description of what script is and what a scripting language is ... is missing from the article. I took a stab at a better definition, but it leans towards the limited scope. If the scope is broader then lets add that as an alternative/contested meaning.

::::IMO, a scripting language is ''fundamentally'' a programming language; a language used for scripting. ''Scripting language'' is basically the word ''language'' with an adjective in front of it. A language is ''classified'' as scripting based on characteristics of which (as you suggest) some are controversial. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 16:15, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

== Notable environments? ==

What are the criteria for the notable environments section? Are scriptable games really more notable than:

*Command lines

*debuggers

*Dump readers

*Editors

*[[ISPF]] on [[IBM]] mainframes

*Web browsers

Even for games, aren't there more notable examples? -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 09:32, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

:I find such lists to be low value. I would prefer deleting the list than adding items. But, it seems others like lists. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 11:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

:But, yeah as an example of a scripting environment, computer games is less common. In general examples are a slippery slope> Once you mention one example, one can always ask: what about that other one? And with scripting there are a zillion examples one could use. ... I think the gaming one was from a gamer who loves that environment. There is too much detail ;) ... I also think there is too many languages listed with too much info about each. ... and it's odd that the first thing under characteristics is that Java is _not_ an example! ... IMO the article needs an overhaul to focus on important things and drop less important stuff. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 19:32, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

:I deleted that paragraph about notable environments. It adds little/no value IMO. What environment does scripting _not_ apply to? ... spoiler alert: none. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 17:55, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

== Type section ==

The ''type'' section seems very bloated with words. Concept to word ration is very low.

Glue languages: a language that glues components together. What language doesn't glue things together?

Editor language: macros? Arguable whether that's a language. Even if a language, is it a editor language? Or is scripting inside an editor. I think this is covered by saying some apps have scripting built-in.

GUI scripting: more macros. what these languages? One case where not enough examples.

Application specific languages: ''Application specific languages can be split in many different categories'' begs the question: what's an application specific language? xml is not a language.

Extension/embeddable languages: What is all this about? Is this about languages that are used outside of one particular app? Either designed and then embedded or generalized from an embedded environment? Don't think this needs 5 paragraphs to cover.

Just say: some apps support internal scripting either via a custom language or a general purpose language. In some cases a custom language of an app is generalized to be used outside of the original host. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 18:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

:That doesn't say enough. Some scripting languages were never tied to a specific host. Their interpreters have API's that let applications effectively embed them. That is certainly true of [[CLIST]] and [[REXX]]. -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 19:49, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

::Thanks for that. I know I've oversimplified. But I think what is now several pages of info can be covered sufficiently in a few sentences. I think the current content is overly detailed about a relatively small number of implementations when in the real world the landscape is a thousand times more complex. I think a good way to handle the content is to use broader strokes; not get bogged down in the details. Thing is, I've never heard of CLIST or REXX. Not that I know everything, but I question whether they are notable -- whatever that actually means :) I realize it's hard to describe some things without giving examples. But examples do not describe a concept fully while giving the impression that they do. I say [[Keep it simple stupid|KISS]] it. [[User:Stevebroshar|Stevebroshar]] ([[User talk:Stevebroshar|talk]]) 18:24, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

:::[[CLIST]] is the original scripting language for [[Time sharing option|TSO]] on large IBM mainframes; IBM later added it to, e.g., NetView. While it is still supported, use dropped with the availability of [[REXX]] in those environments. There is a lot of Rexx activity in the PC world, but not nearly as much as in the mainframe world.

:::I believe that the first sentence, {{tqq|A number of languages have been designed for the purpose of replacing application-specific scripting languages by being embeddable in application programs. }}, although somewhat awkward, gives a good general idea of what it is all about. Possibly streamline the first paragraph, give a list of examples, and generalize the rest, shortening it in the process.

:::In the [[KISS principle|KISS]] article that you cited, I find the familiar quote {{tq|"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler"}}; Extension/embeddable languages is a case where the second part applies. -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 17:03, 5 June 2024 (UTC)