Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment: Difference between revisions
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I do not believe it is the intent of the userspace exception to allow non–extended confirmed users to openly discuss the Arab–Israeli conflict on other users' talk pages in ways that are prohibited in other namespaces and restricted on article talk pages. I ask the Arbitration Committee to amend the clause to limit the exception to the editor's own userspace, which better reflects existing practice. — '''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 01:04, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
: {{re|ScottishFinnishRadish}} The problem is that, in the lead section of [[WP:CT/A-I]], the text {{xt|"with certain exceptions as [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Arab–Israeli conflict#ARBPIA General Sanctions|provided below]]"}} contains a link to {{slink|WP:CT/A-I#ARBPIA General Sanctions}}, which does invoke the term {{xt|"area of conflict"}} in the bullet point {{xt|"'''Extended confirmed restriction''': The [[WP:AC/P#Extended confirmed restriction|extended confirmed restriction]] is imposed on the area of conflict."}} An editor who is unfamiliar with the case history cannot be expected to know that ECR applies to the entire topic area (and not just the defined {{xt|"area of conflict"}}) after reading the [[WP:CT/A-I]] page. — '''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 14:23, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
=== Statement by Patternbuffered ===
As I [[Special:Diff/1307594945|wrote on my talk page]] I was fine with the warning and just curious about an apparent loophole. I agree it should be addressed to mitigate future confusion or conflict; how that should be done I will leave in more experienced hands. [[User:Patternbuffered|Patternbuffered]] ([[User talk:Patternbuffered|talk]]) 11:51, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
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*User:Example posts a follow-up question (e.g. perhaps still not understanding, perhaps disagreeing that the content is related to the dispute)
As long as Example is not sealioning or otherwise acting in bad faith, we don't want to prohibit this sort of interaction yet a simple reading of the proposed language would do that. My first thought is a much-wordsmithed "this does not include discussion of actions taken regarding a user's own edits that takes place on the talk page of the user taking that action." While "discussion with the editor taking that action" is simpler, it would prohibit follow-up to a reply given by a talk-page stalker which I don't think would be desirable. Other things to consider are that good-faith, genuinely new editors are not guaranteed to know about pinging users to their own talk page, won't know how to determine whether some other editor is or is not extended-confirmed and if the queried actions relate to more than one editor (e.g. User:Foo reverted user:Example and user:Example2) it is better for all concerned for all discussion about it to happen on a single page. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 01:35, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
=== Statement by Zero0000 ===
At [[WP:ARBPIA4#Definition of the "area of conflict"]] it says {{tq|"For the purposes of editing restrictions in the ARBPIA topic area, the "'''area of conflict'''" shall be defined as encompassing...edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace."}}. And the [[#ARBPIA_General_Sanctions|application]] of ARBECR to PIA is {{tq|"The extended confirmed restriction is imposed on the '''area of conflict'''."}} (my bold). So, even if "topic area" at [[WP:ARBECR]] is more general than "area of conflict", the ARBPIA page explicitly exempts userspace from it.
To repeat myself, ARBPIA4 does not apply ARBECR to the PIA "topic area" but only to the "area of conflict", which is a defined ___domain.
If ArbCom wants to replace the motion, they should do so with a motion to repeal and replace it, as this is not the first time the issue has come up and it won't be the last unless it is put to rest.
Personally I think that there is nothing wrong with a general userspace exemption, but reducing it to own-userspace would not be a big problem. On the other hand, restricting non-ECs from making comments in their own userspace would seem to have no purpose whatever, as there are other mechanisms for handling disruption. What sense is there in allowing edit requests on article talk pages but disallowing the same on own talk? I think own-userspace should be a general exemption to ECR in all topics. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 12:02, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
=== Statement by {other-editor} ===
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=== Palestine-Israel articles 4: Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''
* The userspace exception was previously discussed at {{section link|Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment/Archive_128#Amendment_request:_Definition_of_the_"area_of_conflict"_Clause_4_(b)}} (July to September 2024), which was closed as having "currently no appetite on the committee to change the definition of the area of conflict". (See the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment/Archive_128#Definition_of_the_"area_of_conflict"_Clause_4_(b):_Clerk_notes|two abandoned motions]] and comments by arbitrators about the exception.) ~ Jenson ([[User:SilverLocust|SilverLocust]] [[User talk:SilverLocust|💬]]) 20:40, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
=== Palestine-Israel articles 4: Arbitrator views and discussion ===
* The {{tq|area of conflict}} language isn't found in {{tq|Extended confirmed restriction – only extended-confirmed editors may make edits related to the topic area, with certain exceptions as provided below. All articles whose topic is strictly within the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area shall be extended confirmed protected by default, without requiring prior disruption on the article.}} The most recent clarification and motion [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1184641744#Motion:_Edit_requests_only says] {{tq|The restriction applies to all edits and pages related to the topic area, broadly construed, with the following exceptions}}. The "area of conflict" language is just an artifact on that page because of older decisions. ECR applies to '''all edits related to the topic area, broadly construed'''. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 10:52, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
*:{{u|Thryduulf}}, I think that falls under [[WP:BANEXEMPT]]#2, and that's how I've always seen it handled and handled it myself. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 10:56, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
*:{{u|Newslinger}}, yeah, that should probably be fixed. It looks like it's just a supplemental page so it doesn't need a full motion so if my views align with the rest of the committee it should be a simple matter to tidy up. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 14:50, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
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