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:''The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[wikipedia:requests for adminship|request for adminship]] that '''did not succeed'''. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>[[Category:Unsuccessful requests for adminship|{{SUBPAGENAME}}]]
===[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Gracenotes|Gracenotes]]===
'''Closed as withdrawn by bureaucrat by [[User:Cecropia|Cecropia]] 05:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC) due to an inability to determine consensus based on the information available at this RfA and the candidate's desire to not renew or extend the RfA at this time.
For more information, see this page's talk page, [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Gracenotes/Bureaucrat_chat|The Bureaucrat chat on closing this RfA]] and the [[Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Gracenotes/Bureaucrat_chat|the talk page for discussion of proposed resolutions of this RfA]].
'''Nomination was suspended for bureaucrat action by [[User:Cecropia|Cecropia]] 20:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC) at (201/71/4); Original end time 20:20, [[29 May]] [[2007]] (UTC)'''
{{User|Gracenotes}} - I am honoured at being able to nominate Gracenotes for adminship. Since he joined in September 2005, he has gained over 11,000 edits, although he only really became active in October 2006. His edits are firmly spread across a wide range of namspaces, with nearly 1,500 of those being in wikipedia space. Some may argue Gracenotes is the parser king with his excellent template work, the mop would help perfect all those protected templates. His MediaWiki talk space edits show he has a firm understanding of how wikipedia works (how many people can say they actually have any MediaWiki space edits?!). He is active at the help desk showing that he [[WP:AGF|assumes good faith]] and steps in to help all those users that have problems. He's got very good contributions to XfD's and I think Grace's home will be closing those neglected [[WP:TFD|TfD]]'s. His mainspace contributions show that he has a firm understands of our inclusion criteria/guidlines and would be quite capable of enforcing policy when required. On top of all that - he's a nice guy! I really hope you can help me give Gracenotes the mop - he will be more than an asset to the administration. [[User:Ryan Postlethwaite|'''<span style="color:#000088;">Ry<span style="color:#220066;">an<span style="color:#550044;"> P<span style="color:#770022;">os<span style="color:#aa0000;">tl</span>et</span>hw</span>ai</span>te</span>''']] 22:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
'''Co-nom by [[User:Snowolf|Snowolf]]''': Nothing unusual, just I wanted to nominate Gracenotes but Ryan did it before me ;-). As always, I think that we can trust this user with a couple of extra buttons ;-)Good luck! <i><b>[[WP:UCFD|<font color = "darkmagenta">«</font>]][[User:Snowolf|<span style="color:darkmagenta;">Snowolf</span>]] <sup><small>[[User talk:Snowolf|<font color = "darkmagenta">How can I help?</font>]]</small></sup>[[WP:NPP|<font color = "darkmagenta">»</font>]]</b></i> 22:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
'''Co-nom by {{user|Nishkid64}}''': It was just in fact a few days ago that I asked why Gracenotes did not want to nominated for adminship. I mean, from what I saw, he was better qualified than most of our admins were when they went up for adminship. As Ryan stated, Gracenotes has a thorough knowledge of the inner workings of the Wikipedia interface, and he definitely can be an asset in editing MediaWiki pages. As for admin chores, one can easily see that Gracenotes will be very helpful at closing TfDs, granting/denying RFPP requests and handling AIV requests. Gracenotes has the experience that we look for in our candidates, and he surely demonstrates a need for the tools. <font face="georgia"><span style="background:#E0FFFF;color:#007FFF">[[User:Nishkid64|Nishkid64]] ([[User talk:Nishkid64|talk]])</span></font> 21:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
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:'''4''' (additional question from SlimVirgin):
:Hi GN, I seem to recall your posting something that implied you felt it was okay to link to attack sites, but I may be misremembering. Can you outline your position on that issue, please? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
::'''A:''' Certainly. I suppose you mean attack sites as those in which personal attacks are made against Wikipedians, without the intent of improving Wikipedia.
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::To conclude, it is an interesting fact that (to my knowledge) [[MeatballWiki]] has no articles on dealing with external sites of criticism. Wikis are meant to be their own self-sufficient world, taking care of their own problems, not meant to be [[WP:WRW|in the real world]]. However, Wikipedia no [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not MeatballWiki|longer has that option]]: the recognition of this is helpful in dealing with such sites. Now, ''if'' these comments seem without focus, it is because the issue has many, many facets. Hopefully I've explained my views on the facets you're interested in. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> §
:::Perhaps I should re-outline, but without awkwardly interpolated rationale (which seems to muck up the clarity.) Here goes: I think that Wikipedia could do better without criticism sites, and that valid criticisms should be covered on-wiki. However, now that attack sites exist, it is quixotic to ignore them completely. I discourage (that is, do not support) the introduction of links to criticism sites, but removing ''any link at all'' should only be done according to the degree to which these conditions are met: 1. If the act of adding the link could be considered a personal attack. 2. If the link contains personal information (that is not common knowledge) revealed against the subject's will; this may require oversight 3. If the removal of the link will cause more controversy (and produce more "oxygen") than keeping it. That's all. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 01:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
:'''4a''' (clarifying question from [[user:Geogre|Geogre]]:
:For the record, I'm not thrilled with those links being part of [[WP:NPA]], but your answer above conjured a situation where links to attacking/non-encyclopedic sites were made in good faith. Can you think of an example where such an addition has been made, or can you describe a hypothetical where such a link could be made in a way that it adds to encyclopedic coverage? I have not followed all the debates on the subject, and I would imagine some of the voters have not, either, so an example would really help. [[User:Geogre|Geogre]] 11:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
::I hope Geogre won't mind if I jump in here. Any example should be ''either'' hypothetical ''or'' given without details that would violate someone's privacy. My stalker's website, with his sexual fantasies about me, his references to parts of my body, his speculation about my menstrual cycle, and various other personal (including contact) details for me and members of my family (some accurate, some not) was taken down after a year of severe real-life stalking in which people other than myself got (badly) hurt, and after the stalker was arrested by police. But to use my case as a hypothetical one, if that site were still up (and yes, it did have some pages that weren't of a stalking nature), it would be completely inappropriate to post a diff here of someone linking to it, in order to discuss when links might be appropriate or inappropriate, as that would simply be a continuation of the violation of me. We had an RfA a few months ago in which the candidate repeatedly named a website so that voters could find it and see if he had been right to link to it previously, as he was getting oppose votes as a result of his previous linking to it. The site that he was naming gave the real name (or what may be the real name) of a Wikipedian who was trying to remain anonymous (and had various attacks on Wikipedians), and the RfA had to be deleted and partially restored. [[User:Musical Linguist|Musical L]][[User talk:Musical Linguist|inguist]] 11:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Musical Linguist, with all due respect, I don't know if your comment here belongs underneath of a question intended for an RfA candidate. Moreover, the ordeal you went through sounds horrific, but note that I have learned more about your incident from you than any other source on the internet. [[User:Daveh4h|daveh4h]] 18:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
::::Dave, I don't think Musical Linguist's concern is that you shouldn't find out what happened to her; her concern was simply that it happened. The point is that editors who have been stalked and harassed need to know that admins will protect victims of that kind of behavior, and not increase the readership of the attackers' websites by linking to them. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
:::::Quite right, SlimVirgin. Dave, I assure you I'm capable of thinking this through. For over a year, I ''never'' posted publicly about this, partly because I knew that people could become curious and start looking for my stalker's site, but mainly because everything I posted was being tracked, and I would be likely to get a gloating, sexually sadistic e-mail about my post, with a copy to my superior, and perhaps even a copy to the media. After more than a year, and knowing that the man has been arrested (though not over his harassment of me), I have started speaking out, mainly because I don't want other people to go through what I went through. And I will say that the greatest distress caused to me by Wikipedians other than this sexual predator came from administrators (a very, ''very'' small number) who were callous and unsympathetic, and who ''didn't think his posts should be reverted'' or that pages should be semi-protected to prevent him posting about me. [[User:Musical Linguist|Musical L]][[User talk:Musical Linguist|inguist]] 07:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
::'''A:''' Geogre, the example that comes to mind is where encyclopedic coverage is needed. If, through a bored reporter or two, Encyclopedia Dramatica became notable enough for an article (with reliable sources), we'll make one. It is our custom to link to websites in the infobox. I'm interested in building an encyclopedia, and think that we should exercise caution in censoring these links out of mainspace (an activity some have suggested below).
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::To digress, I do believe strongly in the right to anonymity: it is a right that everyone should have (and I am grieved that Musical Linguist lost it), and it is one that should not be defaced by abuse thereof. As [[Milan Kundera]] said, "curtain-rippers are criminals" (although there are counter-examples, e.g. Nixon). Thus, instead of keeping all links, sensitivity should be applied. Completely removing all such links can lend itself to abuse in enforcement. (The appropriateness of Kelly's Martin blog is how much you like Kelly Martin; the concept of an "attack site" can be a means to an end.)
:::Kelly Martin criticizes; she doesn't defame, she doesn't out people, she doesn't stalk them or encourage others to do so. There's no comparison. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
::::The point that I was proving is that enforcing [[WP:BADSITES]] can be a matter of subjectivity, depending on the person enforcing it. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> §
::::[http://nonbovine-ruminations.blogspot.com/2007/05/today-seething-idiocy.html Actually, yes she does,] if we use the definition of defame as to harm the reputation of someone through false statements, which she does do off-wiki. --[[User:Badlydrawnjeff|badlydrawnjeff]] <small>[[User_talk:Badlydrawnjeff|talk]]</small> 14:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::Wikipedia did not have to face this years ago. Though I adhere to it, the WikiWay is dying, and in this brave new world, no one found the time to mourn for it. I am not the type that protects Wikipedians by removing links to attack sites; if needed, others may do that. I protect Wikipedians by advocating them if I believe they need help; I support Wikipedians by sharing with them knowledge of MediaWiki and Wikipedia policies; I respect Wikipedians in argument. But ask me to censor in murky situations, and I may not be able to help you. Not everyone can be both a lover and a fighter: thankfully, the admin work I plan on doing does not involve much of the latter. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> §
:'''4b''' Followup from Will Beback
:I see you call the removal of links to attack sites "censorship". How would you characterize the removal of IRC logs? There's no Meatball page prohibiting their posting. How are they different? [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:·]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 23:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
::Yes, the removal of links can't ''not'' be censorship. Censoring isn't always bad: it's merely removing content that is deemed morally objectionable, just as the ancient [[Roman censor]]s did. Removing links to pages wherein stalkers describe their sexual fantasies about a victim, and oversighting the edits, is more than fine, because that sort of behavior is morally appalling (and, though I am not sure, possibly illegal).
::The posting of logs has less to do with moral problems. May I take this quote from [[Milan Kundera]]? "But one day in 1970 or 1971, with the intent to discredit Prochazka, the [Russian] police began to broadcast these conversations as a radio serial." Here, the conversation refers to private conversation between Prochazka and a friend during the Prague String. Kundera does on to note that in private, "a person says all sorts of things, [some parts of the list removed, not to extend fair use too much], makes a companion laugh by shocking him with outrageous talk, floats heretical ideas he'd never admit in public, and so forth." Unlike Wikipedia, IRC is not meant to be an [[Akashic record]]: while discussion often does not get as dirty as Kundera describes, people often spout their feelings about an issue into an IRC channel, realizing "that we act different in private than in public is everyone's most conspicuous experience." Now, in Wikipedia IRC channels specifically, people often repeat or delineate exactly how they feel about issues on-wiki. Just to make sure that we aren't invading any traces of this social contract, however, it seems to be a courtesy to ask someone if they want to release IRC conversation into some sort of [[Akashic record]], like Wikipedia. Licensing under GFDL ''is irrevocable'', and only the author should be able to do that. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> §
:::Thanks for your reply. The concept of [[Akashic record]] appears a bit too esoteric to be relevant here. Getting back to the heart of the matter, would you object to links to IRC logs posted elsewhere? [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:·]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 01:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
::::Yes, you're probably right about the [[Akashic record]]; I only meant to draw a comparison (very vaguely related to the [[metaball|WikiNow|WikiNow]], ignore the meatball link!). Linking to logs should be discouraged, as they contain data that can easily be forged, and also provide a means to circumvent the "social contract" mentioned above. To continue the the thoughts of Kundera, "Thus only gradually did people realize (though their rage was all the greater) that the real scandal was not Prochazka's daring talk but the rape of his life". Such logs, and links to them, should be regarded with sensitivity. Links to logs that give away the IP addresses of Wikipedians should be avoided, because such is against our privacy policy. But, for example, [http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p28/Grac3not3s/screenshot.png this] should be fine. Overall, it's a complex issue, and removings should be handled on a case-by-case basis; if you want something specific, please ask it. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 02:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
:'''5''' (additional question from SlimVirgin):
:Sorry if this has been answered already, GN, but can you explain why you redirected your user page to Gurch's a couple of weeks ago? [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AGracenotes&diff=128333067&oldid=127540454] [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
::'''A''' It's an inside joke; when I accidentally got a message he was supposed to receive, we reverted it. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> §
:::Can you say more about what you mean? It looks a bit odd, and I don't know what "we reverted it" means. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
::::How is it "odd"? [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> §
:::::What does "we reverted it" mean? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
::::::Communicating over IRC, Gurch and I decided it wasn't the best idea after [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gurch&diff=prev&oldid=128354849 this]. The redirects were certainly not meant to be permanent. As an admin, accountable for blocks and needed for similar communication, such a redirect would be unacceptable. But I wasn't an admin. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 18:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
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:'''7''' (from SlimVirgin)
:Could you say something, please, about your bot use? I can see that you're using one, and it's obvious from your edit count (nearly 5,000 edits in May alone), but I always thought bots had to be registered as separate accounts, or else had to be used quite slowly. Yours seems to make edits very fast, yet it doesn't have its own account. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
::'''A:''' Contrary to your assumption, I have approved every single edit that I have ever made. The only major scripts that I have used are for anti-vandalism and tagging redirects. As for cleaning up vandalism, that can be a necessary evil: surely you don't expect me to leave vandalism once I find it! As for tagging redirects, all of the edits ''were'' manually initiated, and I reviewed the content of each page before making the edit. If no one remarked anything about it until you, that's a good indication that I didn't "flood" recent changes. On a technical note, it may also ease your mind that a developer has commented, "I would have no problem with edit rates on the order of 100 per minute" for scripts that check lag, as mine did. Hardly all of my edits are script-assisted: my edit count is mostly a result of hard work and long hours :) [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> §
:::I'm not talking about fighting vandalism, but about very low-priority edits [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=20070508045900&limit=1100&target=Gracenotes such as these]. These artifically inflate your edit count, so can you say why you're not using a separate account for them? Also, are you saying you sat for five hours doing nothing but hit a button hundreds of times to make these changes — and doesn't this kind of editing affect server speed for other users, which is in part why bot approval is needed? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
::::Artificially inflate my edit count? Why, is my edit count remotely useful even if I don't inflate it?
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:::::You didn't answer the question. Are you saying you sat there for five hours [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=20070508045900&limit=1100&target=Gracenotes doing nothing but press a button hundreds of times]?
:::::As for edit count, you've made 5,700 edits to the encyclopedia, and most of your edits were made this month. [http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/Tool1/wannabe_kate?username=Gracenotes&site=en.wikipedia.org] If thousands of these were bot or bot-like edits, that's clearly relevant. The number of talk page edits is illustrative: only 343 to article talk, but 5,700 to articles? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
::::::I fixed less than 2335 redirects; this means that a more than 3428 of my mainspace have been vandal reversion, article improvement, or an insignificant amount of mistakes (mentioned in Q6). As a wikignome, I do not often participate in talk page discussions (although the number of discussions is not trivial): just fix it and go. No use wasting time discussing the fixing of typos.
::::::Yes, I did sit there for some time (with breaks, of course) and, going through dozens of pages of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&generator=allpages&gaplimit=50&gapfilterredir=redirects&gapprefix=WP:&prop=revisions&rvprop=content&format=jsonfm&gapfrom=WP:F api.php] and a simple script, tag with {{tl|r from shortcut}} every redirect that did not have the template. I gave consideration to every edit. None of my contributions are bot edits, and I have spend hours crafting some of the semi-automated scripts that I've used. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 19:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
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::'''A:''' Although sometimes I disagree with this notion, Wikipedians should [[Wikipedia:Follow consensus, not policy|follow consensus, not policy]]. This is hard for me in AFD debates, when people vote to keep or delete an article against guidelines to the contrary. (For example, there is a [[WP:FICT|minor character in a fictional work]], and there appears to be no reason to not ''merge''). But, consensus is consensus. In the MFD, the nomination was a malformed [[WP:POINT]]: the better solution, perhaps, would have been to remove the orange bar and leave the page be. However, I decided that the page may as well go, ''partially'' in response to the nominator (maybe not the best idea).
::If others viewing this RFA would feel reassured by it (although I'm more of the bold-discuss-revert type than [[WP:BRD|bold-revert-discuss]], and have no history of edit warring that I can recall), I could add myself to the category of admins open to recall. However, I would prefer that other editors in conflict with me seek other means of dispute resolution first. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> §
;Optional question from {{user|Blackjack48}}
:'''11.''' After a recent MfD, many Wikipedians are debating the use of [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning|spoiler warnings]] in articles about books, movies, and stories. Where do you stand on this issue and do you use spoiler templates when reading these types of articles? Thank you. <font color="red">[[User:Blackjack48|Blackjack48]] [[User_talk:Blackjack48|♠]] [[Special:Contributions/Blackjack48|♣]]</font> 23:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
::'''A:''' I'm not as familiar with this debate as I'd like to be, given that it's one of the Big Things that the Wikipedia community is currently discussing. If you require me to form an opinion, I weakly oppose the inclusion of spoiler templates. They strike me as unencyclopedic, in that Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, should be expected to be a compendium of human knowledge, including "spoiling" content. Usability is an important issue, but (to draw a comparison) Sparknotes does not have spoiler warnings, as far as I am aware. People go to Sparknotes because they want an objective, straight-forward summary of a book. I imagine that people go to Wikipedia for the same thing. Once they get to the "plot" of an article, there should be no reason why they wouldn't expect to understand the full plot. The same logic applies for articles about a character.
::I am also sympathetic towards the position that spoiler templates should only be included only if there is a really key plot twist, but only a compromise, if absolutely no other consensus on the issue can be reached. (Once again, I am unfamiliar with the issue; if I have assumed something incorrectly, please correct me.) [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> §
; Optional question from {{user|Clayoquot}}
:'''12.''' Under what circumstances would you unblock a user who had been blocked by another administrator? [[User:Clayoquot|Kla'quot]] 00:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
::'''A:''' The only circumstance under which I would unblock a user who had been blocked by another administrator is if I disagreed with the block. But I am quite aware that wheel warring is an extremely nonconstructive activity, and would try to discuss the issue with the blocking admin first. If the blocking admin were away, or if I felt that I needed community input on the matter, I would make a post to [[WP:ANI|the admin's incident noticeboard]]. I would likely overturn a block without asking the blocking admin if it were maintenance (that is, removing an autoblock on a widely shared IP and reinstating it as a regular block), or if the admin blocking had gone crazy (that is, blocked Jimbo, etc.) I would contact the blocking admin in other cases: for example, I might disagree with a username block, or I might note that the admin was involved in a content dispute with the blocked user prior to blocking, etc. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 18:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
; Optional question from {{user|Mantanmoreland}}
:'''13.''' Concerns have been raised about your position on "attack sites" such as Wikipedia Review, which you have described as a "mixed bag" before withdrawing the remark as "hasty." You joined Wikipedia Review in March and posted there through May. I was wondering if you could share with us why you post there, what you feel your bring to the table at that site and how you feel your Wikipedia Review posting and membership enhances your qualifications as an administrator of Wikipedia. Do you believe other Wikipedians should join Wikipedia Review, as you have, and, if so, why?--[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 15:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
:: Can I just point out something here raised on the talk page also – should Gracenotes choose to answer, the uninvolved voter cannot draw much conclusion from this without actually seeing the posts in question. This is exactly the sort of situation in which a link to a page on an "attack site" would not be a personal attack at all, but actually helpful in determining whether to trust the candidate – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 20:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
:::No worries. I'd be happy to email to anyone interested a link to GN's posts on WR.--[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 22:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
:::: Great. So openly offering to email links to attack sites to anyone is accepted, while opposition to a rejected policy about dealing with them is not? Am I missing something here? Has everyone really lost the capability for rational thought? – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 22:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::Let's hear from Gracenotes on this question and then we can carry on in Talk.--[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 22:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
::'''A:''' You may not know it, but I am a ''[[Fanboy|big fan]]'' of MediaWiki software. Sure, it does have its pitfalls, but it nonetheless it continues to fascinate me. I originally registered for the Wikipedia Review to answer a question about oversight, which is an extension to MediaWiki written by Brion. Then, I made a couple of trivial comments here and there: you'll see that I didn't make any essentially useful points. I hardly feel like even a minute part of their community. I was not as familiar with the WR when I had signed up for it. Now, I am more dubious of their intentions, although some valid (if not bitter) criticisms are provided there (if you don't believe me, please email me about the issue). I hope you appreciate my honesty in answering this optional question; I will appreciate your good faith in replying to my answer. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 02:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
::: Since you want a reply I'll give it - I belong to the "sack of shit" school of thought when it comes to WR, and I am aghast you find it to be the mixed bag with "valid (if not bitter) criticisms" there. So ends my good faith reply.--[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 02:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
:::: But a sack of shit has its uses... as fertilizer for instance. :-) Now, I'm one of those who has blasted that site pretty seriously, calling them "Wiki Whiners". But I still agree with Gracenotes that valid criticisms ''do'' occasionally show up there, though usually expressed in an obnoxious way. One shouldn't shut one's mind totally to potentially useful input from any source. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 03:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
:::: As a site, I wish it didn't exist, and that all discussion about Wikipedia should happen on-wiki. I think that Wikipedia is overall hurt by having discussion about Wikipedia off-wiki. I have withdrawn my "mixed bag" comment, and still do not defend it, for this very reason. However, if you wish, I can email you a link to a ''single post'' containing a valid criticism of Wikipedia. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 03:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
::::Well, dang, what about that really great poster who brought truth and light to those ignorant schmucks over there at WR? He seemed like a well-adjusted, sensitive individual and a really nice guy! I think Fred Bauder has also shown some light over there as well, and say what you will about the [[Essjay controversy]], WR broke it.—[[User:Academy Leader|''ACADEMY LEADER'' ]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Academy Leader|<span style="color:#AE0700;">''FOCUS!''</span>]]</small></sup> 03:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
:::: I have to kind of disagree with the idea that all Wikipedia-related discussion should only be on Wikipedia... I think every organization and community needs an independent discussion place that's not controlled by the power structure, rules, policies, and taboos of the main community... this can prove valuable in cases where the community imposes some ill-advised restriction and squelches discussion of it. Now, I wish there were such a forum that didn't have the obnoxious tone of that one, but I'll have to take what I can get. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 03:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
::::The trouble with shit is that when it hits the fan<blockquote>''<s>As far as I can tell, Gracenotes has never linked to an "attack" site. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Everyking_2&diff=108183146&oldid=108172030| You have]. That makes it a little hard to take you seriously when you say he's "detached from reality and totally lacking in empathy."</s> [[User talk:Frise|Frise]] 00:14, 26 May 2007 (UTC)''</blockquote>
::::<blockquote>''*That strikes me as distinctly unfair, Frise, as Mantanmoreland has stated that he believes his doing so was a mistake. [[User:JavaTenor|JavaTenor]] 00:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)''</blockquote>::::'''everyone''' gets hit. So, can somebody advise me the difference between posting in good faith on an off-wiki site, which includes attack language in some of its postings, and a "mistake" (or at least the belief(?) it was) in providing a link to one? Admins will make mistakes (''mea culpa'') from time to time, but it is all part of the learning curve. There is no indication of wilful disruption by posting on a ill-regarded off-Wiki site nor accidently linking to an attack site. Perhaps the moral high ground some people take is just a pile of sacks of shit, after all. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] 09:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
==== General comments ====
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*See [[User:Gracenotes|Gracenotes]]'s edit summary usage with [http://tools.wikimedia.de/~mathbot/cgi-bin/wp/rfa/edit_summary.cgi?user=Gracenotes&lang=en mathbot's tool]. For the edit count, see the [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Gracenotes|talk page]].
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* Links for Gracenotes: {{usercheck-short|Gracenotes}}
* This user '''is not''' {{User|Grace Note}}.
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====Discussion====
*From what I read Gracenotes does not support using external sites to attack others. So that issue looks to be moot to me. Contribs look good, check. No behavior problems that are of any significance, check. I can't find any reason not to give the mop, and by reading the comments Gracenotes gave I am confident he will enforce our policy on no personal attacks, should it be done on here directly or on another site and linked to. —— '''[[user:Eagle 101|<
* Gracenotes has provided an answer clarifying the oft-misinterpreted Q4 answer here: [[Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Gracenotes#Ambiguity_of_language]]. -- ''[[User:Nae'blis|nae]]'[[User_talk:Nae'blis|blis]]'' 20:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
*I think the proper place for spin of the kind attempted above is on the discussion page. It's really unseemly here. Please move it to Talk. Thank you. Perhaps Gracenotes or one of the other supporters of this RfA could do the honors.--[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 22:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
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********Even if he changed his mind about it later, it would seem that his own use of such a link (to give evidence of the character of somebody up for RfA through showing their own off-site words) is a case in point to how it's in some cases perfectly reasonable for a good-faith editor to find there to be a sensible reason to link to such sites... after all, he did it himself. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 00:30, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
*********I'm glad you feel that every mistake I make should have the force of Wikipedia policy, and should be recounted ad nauseum and used as precedent. Not even the Gods find their mistakes so exalted.--[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 04:00, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
* Important note: It's official – [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Gracenotes&diff=133987647&oldid=133987406 Gracenotes removes links to attack sites]. See? So you can all stop opposing him for not doing so, now – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 02:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
* [[Wikipedia:Consensus not numbers|Consensus not numbers]]: I disagree a little with GraceNotes on attack sites, but his thoughts are an important component of legitimate debate on Wikipedia about a complex problem. His actions and expressed thoughts have long been a fixture of Wikipedia, and long may that continue. There is no doubt in my mind on the important question: he can be trusted with the mop, so I propose that we promote him at the end of this discussion. --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 13:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
*: Proposing that the candidate be promoted is what the nomination is for, I think you're a bit late for that. :) This entire page is (supposedly) discussion of that proposal – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 15:49, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
*:: I always propose promotion or non-promotion as a way of indicating my opinion. I don't vote. --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 00:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
* --> bureaucrat tips on talk page. Bureaucrats are more then capable enough to make proper decissions on this. We selected them based on those qualities. Let's keep that particular discussion on the talk page. --[[User:TheDJ|TheDJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 14:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
'''Support'''
#'''Strong support''' strong opinions, nice answer to Q4, and should be useful esp on tricky policy issues, [[User:SqueakBox|SqueakBox]] 01:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#Already, wasn't, you know the rest. --[[User:Slowking Man|Slowking Man]] 20:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Excellent contributor who will make a great admin. [[User_talk:Wimt|Will]] <small><font color="red">(aka [[User:Wimt|<font color="red">Wimt</font>]])</font></small> 20:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Definitely''' a nice guy, should be good. '''[[User:Majorly|<span style="color:#002bb8">Majorly</span>]]''' (''[[User talk:Majorly|talk]]'' | ''[[User:Majorly/MU|meet]]'') 20:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#Gracenotes is an excellent contributor, a funny and genial collaborator and a great guy who will make a great admin. :-) --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 20:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Strong support''' as nom - best of luck squire! [[User:Ryan Postlethwaite|'''<
#'''Support'''—at the risk of sounding cliché, I was under the genuine impression this user was an [[WP:SYSOP|sysop]] already; nevertheless, Gracenote's contributions speak for themselves, and I have every confidence in him and I hope the community thinks likewise ... oh, and I suppose the icing on the cake is such a trustworthy nominator
#'''Support''' - Gracenotes is an excellent contributor and would make a really good Admin..----<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">[[User talk:Cometstyles|Cometstyles]]</span> 20:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#[[User:Sean William|Sean William]] 20:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' had interactions with him before and he seemed like admin quality for sure. Let's give him a mop. —[[User:Anas Salloum|'''<
#'''Support''' I reviewed his contributions over the past month and am impressed with the range and civility of the edits. Would be an asset. <span style="font-family:Arial; font-weight:bold; border:none; font-size:10pt; padding:2px; line-height:10pt; width:30em;">—[[User:Ocatecir|<
#'''Support''' This user is in my Top 3 non-admins who should be... hopefully not for much longer. [[User:GDonato|GDonato]] ([[User talk:GDonato|talk]]) 20:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#:<s>'''Support'''-Certainly. ''[[User:Telcourbanio|Telcourbanio]] [[User talk:Telcourbanio|Care for a talk?]]'' 20:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)</s>
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#'''Support''' Gracenotes isn't already an administrator?! :O [[User:Funpika|<span style="color:blue"><b>Fun</b></span>]][[User_Talk:Funpika|<span style="color:green"><b>pika</b></span>]] 22:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''-Great user, great edits (and now he can make all those protected templates better without having to ask someone to do it for him). --[[User:R|'''R''']] <sup>[[User_talk:R|Parlate]]</sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/R|Contribs]]<sub>[[Special:Emailuser/R|@]]</sub> (Red Sux!)</small> 22:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#<i><b>[[WP:UCFD|<font color = "darkmagenta">«</font>]][[User:Snowolf|<
#'''Support''' - good candidate with an excellent track record. Go for it! - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#558; font-family: comic sans ms; font-variant: small-caps">'''A<
#'''Support'''-Seems like a great user. [[User:Lemonflash|<font color="red">Lεmση</font><font color="black">flαsh</font>]][[User_talk:Lemonflash|<font color="red"><sup>(t)</sup></font>]]<font color="black">/</font>[[Special:Contributions/Lemonflash|<font color="red"><sub>(c)</sub></font>]] 22:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support:''' I've seen this user on #vandalism-en-wp. He could use the tools.
#'''Support''' Excellent candidate. With respect to gaillimh, I'll point out that April Fool's Day has confused more than its share of fine admins over the years. Unfortunately, this place just enters the Twilight Zone for those 24 hours. :) [[User:Xoloz|Xoloz]] 22:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Impressive record. [[User:The_undertow|''the_undertow'']] [[User_talk:The_undertow|<
#'''Support''' Now that I see you're the "good one" (see comments below)...just kidding. —'''[[User:MichaelLinnear| <font face="Centaur Festive MT Italic"> <font color="black">Michael</font><font color="red">Linnear</font></font>]]''' 22:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Strong support''' I should have watchlisted the page. Gracenotes has been reasonable in discussions and accurate in AIV reports. <font face="monospace">[[User:Dgies|<font color="#00F">'''—dgies'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Dgies|t]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Dgies|c]]</sub></font> 22:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''This user's broad experience and work with templates is impressive. His willingness to assist others seems well documented. <span style="font-family:"'Arial Bold';">[[User:JodyB|<
#'''Support'''. My experience with Gracenotes has been the exact opposite from Gaillimh's. I've seen Gracenotes display good skills, good reasoning and a good sense of humor.--<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size:11pt">[[User:Kubigula|Kubigula]] ''([[User talk:Kubigula|talk]])''</span> 23:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Amazing grace!''' The [[Wikipedia|earth]] shall soon dissolve like [[WP:SNOW|snow]], the [[WP:PAG|sun]] forbear to [[WP:IAR|shine]], but [[User:Jimbo Wales|God]] who call'd me [[WP:ADMIN|here]] below, will be forever mine. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] [[User talk:Deskana|<small>(AFK 47)</small>]] 23:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#:ROTFLMAO! List this at [[WP:MOTD]] ASAP! :-P
#'''RfA clique #1''' [[User:G1ggy|<font color="green">'''G1'''</font>]][[User_talk:G1ggy|<font color="red">'''gg'''</font>]][[User:G1ggy/Contribs|<font color="blue">'''y'''</font>]][[WP:Finger|<font color="black">'''!'''</font>]] 23:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' This user is patient with others and would be fair towards others.
#'''Support''', This user meets my criteria. --
#'''Support''' for my favourite janitor, hoping that he will be one of the additions that the admin team desperatly seems to need. Be as little an admin as you can :D --[[User:TheDJ|TheDJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 00:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Strong Support''', A great editor who will use the new tools wisely. --[[User:Mschel|<font color="red">M</font><font color="green">s</font><font color="black">c</font><font color="blue">h</font><font color="brown">e</font><font color="orange">l</font>]] 00:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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#'''Support''' - very active editor who consistently finds useful areas in which to involve themselves. [[User:Warofdreams|Warofdreams]] ''[[User talk:Warofdreams|talk]]'' 00:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' I know this user, he has strong technical expertise and good experience. [[User:Wooyi|Wooyi]]<sup>[[User talk:Wooyi|Talk to me?]]</sup> 00:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' An excellent candidate for the mop.
#Changing From '''Support''' to '''strong support''' in light of this debate.
#'''Support''' Excellent editor and will be great admin. [[User:Katalaveno|'''<font color="green">κaτa<span title="Pronunciation in IPA" class="IPA">ʟ</span>aveno'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User_talk:Katalaveno|T]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Katalaveno|C]]</sub></small> 01:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Strong support''' An excellent user from what I've seen of Gracenotes. He is always civil and respectful. This user will make a great administrator. [[User:Acalamari|Acalamari]] 01:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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#'''Support''' – Has demonstrated an excellent breadth of knowledge of Wikipedia policy. Always willing to participate in discussions. — [[User:Madman bum and angel|Madman bum and angel]] ([[User talk:Madman bum and angel|talk]] – [[User:Madman bum and angel/Desk|desk]]) 02:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''', surely. -- [[User:Phoenix2|<strong>Phoenix2</strong>]] <sup>([[User talk:Phoenix2|talk]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Phoenix2|review]])</sup> 03:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Wait, you aren't an admin? '''''[[User:Bibliomaniac15|<
#'''
#'''Strong, strong support'''. I ran into Gracenotes several months ago at the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|help desk]], where he was courteous, informative, and ... well, helpful. Thus, my personal experience leads me to view him as both "easily approachable" and skillful in communication. Not long after that, Gracenotes was kind enough to correct a template I had tried to create (the important word here is "tried" ... at the time, my knowledge of templates was limited to "If I poke around here, I can cause changes elsewhere"). So, in now considering this RfA, I am struck by three things: (1) Gracenotes has an excellent contributions record; (2) I am more than satisfied with the responses to the questions; and (3) you're ''not'' an admin?!? Cheers, '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>''([[User talk:Black Falcon|Talk]])''</sup> 05:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#:By the way, I ''am'' curious: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AGracenotes&diff=128333067&oldid=127540454 what's] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Gracenotes&diff=next&oldid=128333067 this] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Gracenotes&diff=next&oldid=128333534 about]? Cheers, '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>''([[User talk:Black Falcon|Talk]])''</sup> 05:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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#'''Support'''. A4 is a valid viewpoint, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gaillimh&diff=119424293&oldid=119424118 this] is not trolling. –[[User talk:Pomte|Pomte]] 06:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''$upport'''. I've seen you around, and you deserve the chance. Good luck, [[User:Dfrg.msc|Dfrg.]][[User talk:Dfrg.msc|msc]] 06:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#Sounds reasonable. But perhaps your userpage could make clearer that you're really not Grace Note? [[User_talk:Radiant!|<b><
# Should make a good admin. -- [[User:John Reaves|John Reaves]] [[User talk:John Reaves|(talk)]] 08:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Strong support''' will not become a fine asset, already is. <sup>[[User:Khukri|'''<font face="verdana" color=#6633cc>Khu</font>''']][[User_talk:Khukri|'''<font face="verdana" color=#CC66FF>kri</font>''']]</sup> 08:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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#'''Pile-on Support''' From what I've seen, the user's net effect on Wikipedia would be overwhelmingly positive as a result of having the tools. Anybody else thinks this'll make the Wikipedian 100? Cheers, [[user:Lanky|Lanky]] [[User_talk:Lanky|<b>(<small>YELL</small>)</b>]] 15:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Wow, This guy has clocked in alot of edits in the past two days alone. I believe he would make a great admininstrator. [[User:QuasyBoy|QuasyBoy]] 11:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Nice answers to questions, plenty of experience and I think you'd make great usage of the tools. Good luck! Regards — [[User:The Sunshine Man|<
#'''Strong Support''' per his promise to help out at [[CAT:CSD]]. Believe me, that's one area where we need all the help we can get. <
#'''Weak support''' I'm not thrilled with your policy on attack sites, but I think you'll make a fantastic admin. —<span style="color: red;">[[User:Mets501|M<small>ETS</small>501]] ([[User talk:Mets501|talk]])</span> 18:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' -- good record. Should make a good admin. --[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] [[User talk:A. B.|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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#::Huh? That isnt what DGG said, [[User:SqueakBox|SqueakBox]] 21:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Differing opinions on one issue that many people feel strongly about aside, answers are well thought out, contributions are impeccable. [[User:Lexicon|Lexicon]] <small>[[User talk:Lexicon|(talk)]]</small> 21:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''', I thought he was already an admin! [[User:Tim.bounceback|Tim.bounceback]]<sup>(
#'''Support''' he is a hard worker whose contributions are of excellent quality; he is allowed to have his own opinions, as is any admin, provided they do not interfere with administrative actions. I don't think that Gracenotes will have a problem with making bad decisions based on his views and I certainly do not think there is any chance of abuse of tools on his part. — <font face="papyrus">[[User:E@L|<font color=darkred><font color="darkgoldenrod">E</font>ditor <font color=black>at</font> <font color=darkgoldenrod>L</font>arge</font>]][[User talk:E@L|<sup><font color=darkgoldenrod>(<font color=black>speak</font>)</font>]]</font> 22:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
# '''Support'''. Far as I'm concerned, Q4 is a plus. --[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 22:30 [[23 May]] [[2007]] (GMT)
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#'''Support''' I'm confident this person would use the tools well, and I applaud their clarity and openness in their personal opinions on an area which I'm sure many people have differing opinions on. What's important is that consensus is followed in any key debates, and that's something that every admin signs onto regardless of their personal opinions. Robchurch's comment at the bottom is also worth a read. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 00:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#:Robchurch's comments have been moved to the talk page of the RfA.. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Gracenotes&curid=11363926&diff=133076715&oldid=133051622 (diff)] -- [[User:Daveh4h|daveh4h]] 03:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Strong Support'''. Seems qualified, and the attempts on the part of an extremely vocal minority to impose a litmus test regarding the "attack sites" policy (which seems to be the Wikipedian equivalent of the War on Drugs... a [[moral panic]] that's pursued in opposition to all semblances of common sense, and all opponents are heavily vilified) only make me more inclined to support him as an advocate of rationality on this issue. The suppression of a link to [[Daniel Brandt]]'s site in a Signpost article about him is just one of many examples of silliness perpetrated in the name of this idiotic policy. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 01:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - I trust this user. — [[User:Mholland|mholland]] [[User_talk:Mholland|(talk)]] 01:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Strong Support''' - Good answers to questions, especially Q4. One's personal opinions on off-wiki attack sites doesn't affect a user's ability to be an admin, nor should it affect community trust, unless they're the user actually running the site. Gracenotes is long overdue for the admin bit, and I admonish SlimVirgin for attempting to deny that over trivial and unrelated grounds. <span style="color:red;font-weight:bold">^</span>[[User:^demon|<span style="color:black;font-weight:bold;">demon</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:^demon|<span style="color:red">[omg plz]</span>]]</sup> <em style="font-size:10px;">01:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)</em>
#'''Support''' Answers to question four/4a indicate that the candidate considers context, intent, and effect to be relevant and intends to use judgement. Those are qualities I want in an admin. [[User:GRBerry|GRBerry]] 03:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Strong Support''' The only moral distinction to be made in the "attack sites" debate is that making references to such in NPA or any policy page suggests their existence to random individuals just visiting or blocked per those pages. Otherwise, whatever users want to do when they come across a link to an off-site attack is up to them per the circumstances, and I highly doubt Gracenotes would get in an edit war with anyone who decided to remove an off-site link. Gracenote's answers suggest pragmatic awareness of and concern with personal security issues, and that is enough for me.—[[User:Academy Leader|''ACADEMY LEADER'' ]]<sup><small
#'''Support'''. [[User:Majoreditor|Majoreditor]] 03:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Answer(s) to Q4 seem very sensible to me; no other serious concerns appear to have been raised. -- [[User:Visviva|Visviva]] 06:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
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#'''Support''' I am happy with his(?) response to the BADSITES bit. [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 07:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Smart user, has a sense of humour, and says what he thinks instead of what he knows people want to hear. [[User:Clayoquot|Kla'quot]] 08:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#:Switching back to '''Support''' from Neutral. I'm impressed by the poise with which the candidate has handled this difficult RfA. Wikipedia needs a diversity of opinion amongst its administrators. Plus everything Mackensen says below. The Talk page of this RfA reminds me of [http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-04.htm a certain scene] in [[Monty Python's Life of Brian]]. [[User:Clayoquot|Kla'quot]] 04:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' I note he is quite candid as to where his interests and intended work are directed, and where the extra buttons will most likely prove useful. As for his views regarding "''attack sites''" I can only direct interested readers to the 'Crats [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/LessHeard vanU|comments]] regarding my own very recent RfA. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] 12:59, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' per above. [[User:Bucketsofg|<font color="#DF0001"><b>Buck</b></font><b><font color="green">ets</font></b><font color="grey"><b>ofg</b></font>]] 13:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
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#WP:100 '''support''', per nominations, good communication skills and honesty. --[[User:Guinnog|Guinnog]] 18:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' I have interacted quite a bit with Gracenotes and always found to be helpful, polite and friendly. One of those "I thought they were already an admin. [[User:Mecu|<font color="CEBE70">'''MECU'''</font>]]≈<small>[[User talk:Mecu|talk]]</small> 18:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. While I'm not a huge fan of the attack-site stance, there's way too much weight being put into it plus me-tooism below by folks like Grace_note. It's a big issue, but it's not enough to blast an RfA for. If we all agreed on everything, the world would be a boring place. It's more important to have reasonable folks who are trustworthy in the position (even if they have different opinions on stuff) than people who will say what others want to hear. - [[User:Chairboy|C<small>HAIRBOY
#'''Support'''. Conditionally. You are welcome to hold a minority view, as long as you agree to honor the consensus if people disagree with you. If you feel unable to do that, say so now. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jehochman|☎]]</sup> / <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Jehochman|✔]]</sub> 21:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#:*'''Comment''' I think Gracenotes' demeanor here more than indicates he is willing to listen and respond to minority views without compromising his own ethics. I should hope that consensus is honored in this case.—[[User:Academy Leader|''ACADEMY LEADER'' ]]<sup><small
#:I have, in several occasions past, been on the "wrong side" of consensus, and have accepted it or tried to reach a compromise with the other side. I see no reason to discontinue this, whatever consensus turns out to be. Furthermore, I do not see this specific issue (and my personal views on it) affecting my actions as a [[WP:ADMIN|janitor]]. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 22:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Assume good faith. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 22:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' based on past editing history, and thoughtful answers to RFA questions. [[User:Abecedare|Abecedare]] 22:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' based on sensible answers to questions and no apparent other issues. With all respect for Wikipedians whose privacy has been violated by pages on so-called attach sites, Gracenotes position to take a nuanced view on what should and should not be linked to is I feel a positive approach. The Arbcom resolution of the ED issue was probably a fine first step to a specific problem, but the realization that there are instances of sites on which a) behaviour by some users which goes against our basic tenets is tolerated, but b) where there is also potentially worthwhile criticism/discussion to explore in improving WP is a valuable one. There have been discussions on WP where it is exactly an analysis of what is being said on part of such a site is particularly valuable (the hoopla over removing a link in a Signpost article comes to mind), and the kneejerk (though understandable) reaction of certain editors to stifle that discussion has been counterproductive for improving Wikipedia, and the omission of the actual link has likely had negligible impact in terms of amount of traffic to the actual pages which deliberately violate editors' privacy. This last sentence of mine is supposition and may be incorrect, but I am disturbed that the fact that a respected and thoughtful user appears to share it (but promises to abide by consensus, whatever that happens to be) would disqualify them from adminship. [[User:Martinp|Martinp]] 01:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Gracenotes' view on attack sites doesn't seem to be as utterly criminal as some have made it out to be. Even ''if'' Gracenotes "supports" links to attack sites, which is a conclusion I don't know how anyone could make from his answer to Question 4, would it matter? Consensus seems to go in the other direction, and he is entitled to a different opinion. Does that mean he'll act against everyone else as an administrator? I don't really see that happening, and the rest of his abilities are just too good to pass up. — '''[[User:Rebelguys2|Rebelguys2]]''' [[User talk:Rebelguys2|<sup
#'''Support'''. '''[[User:Sceptre|Will]]''' <sup>([[Flying the Flag (for You)|We're flying the flag]] [[User talk:Sceptre|all over the world]])</sup> 01:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Gracenotes is an experienced and trusted user, and has expressed interest in a wide range of admin chores. I will not oppose for something so trivial as a subset of the external linking guidelines, even if I disagree. [[User:YechielMan|Yechiel]][[User talk:YechielMan|<span style="color:green">Man</span>]] 04:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. -- [[User:DS1953|DS1953]] [[User_talk:DS1953|<sup
#'''Support'''. Everybody has a right to his or hers own POV. I am convinced that Gracenotes will be able to separate his POV from his use of the tools. Being an admin isn't an obligation to be active on all the issues admins can help with; it is perfectly OK for admins not to interfere in some matters, and leave it to other admins. I am convinced Gracenotes will not abuse the tools, and that's what counts. [[User:Errabee|Er]][[User talk:Errabee|<font color="orange">rab</font>]][[User:Errabee|ee]] 08:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. I was going to oppose, but that was because I didn't realise there was a [[User:Grace Note]] and a [[User:Gracenotes]]. After looking over Gracenotes' contributions, he (she?) seems sensible enough. The attack sites thing seems like a whole lot of hoo-ha entirely unrelated to whether Gracenotes having the sysop tools would benefit or disbenefit Wikipedia. I don't want 1300 admins who all think the same and act the same, and to oppose based on a single ideological difference (which is all this is) seems disingenuous. [[User:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none">Neil</span>]] ([[User_talk:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none"><small>►</small></span>]]) 10:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
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# Good user. --- [[User:RockMFR|RockMFR]] 14:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. One of those folks I thought was an admin already. Clearly "gets it." --[[User:Badlydrawnjeff|badlydrawnjeff]] <small>[[User_talk:Badlydrawnjeff|talk]]</small> 15:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Gracenotes is exactly the kind of guy we need. Come on, im agreeing with Jeff, that's consensus.-<u>[[User:AKMask|<
#'''Support''' Clearly a reasonable editor. I am profoundly uncomfortable with the railroading below. The statement that Gracenotes "supports linking to attack sites" is really, I believe, a misrepresentation of this editor's views. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] 16:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#:'''Comment'''. Nobody is saying that, and I notice that a number of the people in support also disagree with his views on attack sites. The question is whether the disagreement is enough to oppose this RfA. That is up to every individual editor's judgment.--[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 17:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
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#'''Support!''' [[User talk:PeaceNT|''P''eaceNT]] 16:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#I've run across Gracenotes several times, and each time I felt that he was already an administrator. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">☯</span>]] //</span> 16:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support!''' [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]] <small>[[User talk:Ben MacDui|(Talk)]]</small> 17:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' I don't find any of the oppose reasons convincing [[User:Yamamoto_Ichiro|Yamamoto Ichiro]] <small>(山本一郎)([[User talk:Yamamoto Ichiro|会話]])</small> 17:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' and i think to those who think WP:BADSITES is a good idea... well - think about this: All it takes for something to be called an attack site is for someone to claim it is, and then anyone saying it's not is beaten into submission. --[[User Talk:Random832|Random832]] 18:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - I thought Gracenotes ''was'' an admin already. I'm certain that he will make an excellent one. [[User:Nihiltres|Nihiltres]]<sup>([[User talk:Nihiltres|t]].[[Special:Contributions/Nihiltres|c]].[[User:Nihiltres/Sandbox|s]])</sup> 19:25, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - I believe Gracenotes will be more closely scrutinized on the attack site issue, and will be ever more careful that links conform to Wikipedia policy. '''''[[User:The Transhumanist|<span style="color:#880088;">Th</span><span style="color:#0000FF;">e Tr</span><span style="color:#449900;">ans</span><span style="color:#DD9922;">hu</span><span style="color:#DD4400;">man</span><span style="color:#BB0000;">ist</span> ]]''''' 20:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - A tireless "mop-and-bucket" guy, it would appear. [[User:Semifreddo|Semifreddo]] 21:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - would benefit project with access to admin tools. [[User:Catchpole|Catchpole]] 22:24, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Whatever his position on attack sites, it doesn't change that he'll make a great admin. How can all these people oppose based on someone's stance on an issue that won't affect use of admin powers at all? Opposing based on someone's stance on some minor policy is just an absolute disregard for things that actually matter on RfA. --[[User talk:Rory096|Rory096]] 23:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Seems level-headed and nice in the discussion on this page. [[User:Haukurth|Haukur]] 00:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Strong Support''' Gracenotes seems to me as a great user! Even though very few times I have encountered him, I still get that strong good expresion of his experience on Wikipedia and his future as an admin. Concerning all those oppose votes per the answer on question 4, I really believe that isn´t a good reason for opposing a candidate, especially if the policy in question (whether the candidate agrees with it or not) is not officially a policy. By the way, Gracenotes has got tons of edits and I´m glad he has considered being a template admin. Best of luck, <font color="purple">♠</font>[[User:TomasBat|<font face="Old English Text MT"><font color="green">Tom</font></font>]][[User_talk:TomasBat|<font color="red">@</font>]][[User:TomasBat/Autographs|<font color="aquamarine">s</font>]][[Special:Contributions/TomasBat|<font face="Old English Text MT"><font color="green">Bat</font></font>]] 01:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
# '''Support'''. Already doing a lot of mop-and-bucket work, and I see no reason to believe that he would be dangerous with the tools. Honestly, I already thought he was an admin. [[User:William Pietri|William Pietri]] 05:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#:<s>'''Support''' a very effective editor. I don't actually see how the questions about attack sites matter, regardless of what one thinks of the question. There is nothing a single admin can do that would cause problems in this regard. Assuming he had been an admin earlier--how would things have been worse? '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' 06:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)</s>
#:: Strongly though you may feel about this, you have already voted (see support #73) – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 07:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
# '''Support'''. Will not abuse tools. There's no reason to think he would abuse the tools, ergo adminship. ➪[[User_talk:HiDrNick|<span style="color:#CC3300">Hi</span><span style="color:#0088FF"><b>DrNick</b></span>]]! 08:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
# '''Support''' —''[[User:Ruud Koot|Ruud]]'' 15:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
# '''Support'''; Gracenotes has long demonstrated a good attitude towards and solid understanding of Wikipedia, and can be trusted with some additional maintenance tools. <span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;"> [[User talk:Warrens|-/-]] [[User:Warrens|Warren]]</span> 15:53, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - Arguments and discussions such as this are why people keep leaving WP. And let's leave aside all the pretty language, the real discussion is "Is Gracenotes going to do exactly what he's told?" If someone posts a link to a site that has violent threats or ''clearly'' objectionable material, I'm confident Gracenotes will get rid of it. If, on the other hand, it links to some criticism of Wikipedia or a particular person's poorly thought out actions, it shouldn't be struck. The problem here, for me, is that I've been stalked, and very nearly killed, and it was a lot worse than my address, or someone's sick fantasies. There are legal and technical avenues for handling this sort of problem, and the RfA of a good editor is not a proper forum for it. He will use the tools better, and have better judgement and a more pleasant demeanor, than 80% of the people currently admins now. This entire mess reflects poorly on WP as a whole. --<font face="Verdana">[[User:Elaragirl|<font color="SteelBlue">Elar</font>]][[User:Elaragirl/a|<font color="orange">'''a'''</font>]][[User:Elaragirl/Signatures|<font color="SteelBlue">girl</font>]]<small><sup>[[User_Talk:Elaragirl|Talk]]|[[User:Elaragirl/EditCount|Count]]</sup></small></font> 16:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Courteous, knowledgeable and conscientious - what more could you ask?--[[User:R613vlu|R613vlu]] 16:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''', thought user already was an admin. :-) Shows independent thought. I am not surprised by additional tool usage. Enwp bot policy is broken and in need of overhaul. [[WP:IAR|ignoring that particular ruleset]] under those circumstances is not a problem, and many people are doing so. --[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 17:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' ... meh, being wrong about attack sites has nothing to do with knowing how to hit a delete button. --[[User:BigDT|BigDT]] 17:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' ... Great contributor and would make a great admin. --[[User:Oakshade|Oakshade]] 18:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. per above. [[User:Ripberger|Ripberger]] 00:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Strong support.''' Per answer to Q4. And just about everything else this user has ever done. [[User:Abeg92|Ab]][[User:Abeg92/ea|<span style="color:#00FF00;">e</span>]][[User talk:Abeg92|g92]]<small>[[Special:Contributions/Abeg92|contribs]]</small> 01:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''; actions speak louder than words, and in this case, both are superb! --[[User:Hojimachong|<b style="color:#0000CC; font-family:Comic Sans MS;">Hojimachong</b>]][[User_Talk:Hojimachong|<sup style="color:#00FFAA;">talk</sup>]] 01:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. I believe this to be a case of severe misunderstanding or exaggeration of a problem on behalf of the opposition. Their interpretations of what Gracenotes has stated are damning indeed, yet I fail to find such an implication in his actual answers. This user has my full confidence. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 05:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. I have full confidence that this user will use the admin tools responsibly, and for the good of Wikipedia. Being in favor of applying case-by-case common sense reasoning to alleged attack sites ''before'' acting on links to them should ''not'' be conflated with unwillingness to remove those links, let alone support for linking to them. [[User:Echuck215|Charlie]] 06:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''Gracenotes has had his personal integrity questioned, and among other things, his "common sense". Many parts of this RfA have been hijacked, including most of the talk page, and I have contributed to this, as have others on "both sides" (a term I dislike, we are on the same side of the good of Wikipedia). That said, I was concerned about the "bot like" edits, but I see no harm that this caused the project, so I cannot oppose on that basis. The "attack site" business has caused a lot of noise, and the fact that Gracenotes has let this RfA run its course tells me that this user is devoted to becoming an admin. Assuming good faith, I am lead to believe he wants to become an admin to help the project. I cannot with good conscious oppose a person for wanting to help Wikipedia. I think he has learned more about personalities and Wikipedia from this RfA than he would as six months being an admin. I've learned a bit from watching. [[User:Daveh4h|daveh4h]] 06:49, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' I am confident that Gracenotes will be an excellent admin. Not everyone is perfect of course, but his work here is impressive and I know he will do good use with the tools. -- [[User:Lucasbfr|lucasbfr]] [[User talk:Lucasbfr|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]] 10:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' for having the temerity not to wholeheartedly support the braindamaged "BADSITES" proposal, particularly given the idiot example of its use perpetrated yesterday by Will Beback - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 13:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#:This sort of gratuitous name-calling, in an already charged and contentious atmosphere, is extremely unhelpful. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 19:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#::Note that he ''didn't'' make any personal attack there... he called the '''proposal''' braindamaged and the '''example''' idiot, not the people who did those things. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 20:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''', seems to be a solid contributor, and I like his thoughtful answers to the many questions above. --[[User:Stormie|Stormie]] 14:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#Reading the answers, this user strikes me as one with a clue - something we desperately need. May not be perfect, but who the hell is? I disagree with the currently vehement enforcement of BADSITES, as if there is no valid reason ever to link to an attack site (in particular because I believe this ban should be limited to a page-by-page as opposed to site-by-site basis, but mainly because this sort of inflexibility is completely ridiculous), but even if I didn't, I would support this request for adminship. This user can think, and shows the familiarity with Wikipedia that admins should have. Both are uncommon qualities. [[User:Johnleemk|Johnleemk]] | [[User talk:Johnleemk|Talk]] 14:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' per DavidGerard and Johnleemk. RfAs shouldn't be used for making political points, although no doubt our good friends at WR are having a good laugh. [[User:Mackensen|Mackensen]] [[User_talk:Mackensen|(talk)]] 14:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' per much of the above. [[User:Trebor|Trebor]] 14:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - Nothing thus far suggests that he won't follow consensus, just that he isn't automatically supporting an existing policy. Supporting a policy and enforcing the policy are two separate things. [[User:PGWG|PGWG]] 14:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#:It's not even policy! It's an idea being pushed by a group who talk about it sensibly but implement it like rabid killbots on crack. It's a failed proposal they are attempting to backdoor via RFA - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 20:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Seems like a good user. His stand regarding the attack sites sounds quite sensible to me and I don't think he's equivocating. <s>So I will suppport if there is nothing else other than this attack sites thing.</s> - [[User:Twooars|'''''TwoOars''''']] <sup>([[User_Talk:Twooars|<font color="green">T</font>]]s | [[Special:Contributions/Twooars|<font color="green">C</font>]])</sup> 14:45, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#:There's some fracas about his large number of near-instantaneous edits, causing people to suspect he's running a bot, but that sort of thing can actually be accomplished manually with any tabbed browser and some handy Javascripting. [[User:Johnleemk|Johnleemk]] | [[User talk:Johnleemk|Talk]] 15:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#::Johnleemk is talking about my addition of {{tl|r from shortcut}} to WP: shortcuts that did not have it. Initially, using a list of shortcuts generated with an [[application programming interface]] (API), I corrected a certain amount of redirects at a time with tabs. (AWB can also generate lists using the API.) However, I realized that I didn't want to load the whole edit page, but only the edit form. So I wrote a script that retrieved ''only the edit form'' from a page (not the whole page, making loading happen a bit faster), then added {<nowiki/>{r from shortcut}} to the edit form, and then sent the form data (submitted the form) if I clicked to submit it (that is, if I manually discerned that the template wasn't there already). However, some people have been concerned that the speed at which I edited was too fast. I'm sorry if this is a bit abstruse; I'm trying to explain it as best as I can. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 15:45, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
# '''Support.''' Linking to websites attacking Wikipedians or posting personal information is a bad idea, obviously. However, I can't approve of the current wording at [[WP:NPA#Linking to attack sites]] stating that "website that engages in the practice of publishing private information concerning the identities of Wikipedia participants will be regarded as an attack site whose pages should not be linked to from Wikipedia pages '''under any circumstances''' ... links to attack sites may be removed by any user; such removals are '''exempt from 3RR'''" (the emphasis is mine). That smacks too much of totalitarism and censorship. I am more in agreement with Gracenotes's answer to Q4. Also, I don't think that disagreeing with Gracenotes on Q4 is sufficient ground for opposition. As mentioned earlier, it is fine for Gracenotes to hold such opinions as long as he abides by consensus in specific situations where disagreements on appropriateness of certain such links arise. [[User:Oleg Alexandrov|Oleg Alexandrov]] ([[User talk:Oleg Alexandrov|talk]]) 16:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
# '''Support.''' Seems like a reasonable editor who can be entrusted with the admin tools. --[[User:Delirium|Delirium]] 17:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
# Though it is easy to see why people disagree with the candidate's views on these issues, I have a difficult time believing that he is likely to unilaterally implement his position once given admin tools. Given that, I don't see any problems in awarding them. [[User:Christopher Parham|Christopher Parham]] [[User talk:Christopher Parham|(talk)]] 17:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
# '''Support'''. [[User:the wub|the wub]] [[User_talk:The wub|<span style="color:green;">"?!"</span>]] 18:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. To my knowledge, not supporting something that isn't policy anyway is not a valid reason for opposition. BADSITES is a classic example of a good idea made crappy by the desire for bright line distinctions. Noticing that some matter of subtlety is required in Wikipedia policy should be a requirement for adminship, not a mark against. [[User:Phil Sandifer|Phil Sandifer]] 20:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Editor has made a tremendous contribution. Views on a controversial policy is not reason to deny adminship. <em>—[[User:Gaff|<span style="color:Indigo;">Gaff</span>]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Gaff|<b style="color:MediumSlateBlue;">ταλκ</b>]]</small></sup></em> 20:49, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - Jabberwocky. It's as relevant reason to support as BADSITES is a reason to Oppose. [[User:Nick|Nick]] 21:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - The BADSITES proposal does not appear to have consensus and I do not believe it is fair or just to oppose adminship for someone who does not agree wholly with it. I note that Gracenotes has not said he wholly disagrees with it; he simply believes that there should be room for sensible judgment about it. This is an opinion held by a fair number of existing admins. [[User:Morven|Matthew Brown (Morven)]] ([[User talk:Morven|T]]:[[Special:Contributions/Morven|C]]) 21:45, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - This is going to take a bit of a digression to explain. First, by "attack sites", I mean those which stalk Wikipedians, rather than those which are merely critical of them. I used to work for the Free Software Foundation, and I remain a strong supporter of FSF in general and on most issues. But some of FSF's policies were totally pointless: one was the refusal to link to sites that promoted proprietary software. Proprietary software was not going to go away if FSF stopped linking to it, any more than attack sites are going to go away if WP stops linking to them. At FSF, at least this denied the linked-to site googlejuice. But Wikipedia puts nofollow on all links, so that reason doesn't hold. I would oppose linking to attack sites that aren't on Google, since it would allow finding them, but that seems rather unlikely. I'm a reasonable editor, and I think my view is reasonable. Certainly, I don't see a reason to deny someone adminship. Since it's approximately [[User:Gracenotes]]'s view, I don't see it as a reason to oppose their editorship. I know I'm probably torpedoing my own RfA (when I finally get around to requesting it), and my chances of a future job at FSF, should RMS see this, but that is no reason not to vote as I think right. All of my impressions of [[User:Gracenotes]] have been positive, and nothing has yet convinced me otherwise, so I support the RfA. [[User:Novalis|Novalis]] 22:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' albeit with some hesitation that I wish were not necessary. I object most strongly to the practice of "outing" the real-life identifies of Wikipedians who need or prefer to edit anonymously. It is unfortunate that the candidate has made comments that could be read, by those who have been victimized by this practice, as anything other than joining in that objection. Sensitivity to the concerns of fellow Wikipedians, and especially for the types of issues that in the past have driven contributors to leave the project, is important in any editor and especially in a would-be administrator. If I believed there was any significant possibility that the candidate would do anything as an administrator that is inconsistent with our policies in this important area, I would find that disqualifying for an admin candidate. However, upon carefully reviewing all of the candidate's comments, I am convinced that he is now sensitized to this issue and has no intention of taking administrator actions that would raise this concern. Apart from that important issue, I find that the candidate has a strong record in "behind the scenes" work necessary to the maintenance of the encyclopedia and a commitment to helping with some of our most persistent backlogs. Despite the hesitation I feel whenever I disagree with many of the esteemed Wikipedians who are opposing, on balance I find myself tilting narrowly into the support column. Whether or not this RfA succeeds, I urge that Gracenotes continue to be mindful of the concerns expressed here. I also urge that other editors who have sullied the conversation with strident and excessive rhetoric refrain from doing so the next time a contentious RfA comes along. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 22:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' as I believe this user can be trusted as an admin. --[[User:Bduke|Bduke]] 22:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. I trust this user to not screw up with the tools. —[[User:CComMack|CComMack]] ([[User talk:CComMack|t]]–[[Special:Contributions/CComMack|c]]) 22:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' This is one of my "why isn't this user an admin already?" incidents. - [[User:ElbridgeGerry|ElbridgeGerry]] <small>[[User talk:ElbridgeGerry|t]] [[Special:Contributions/ElbridgeGerry|c]] [[Special:Blockip/ElbridgeGerry|block]]</small> 22:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Nice, reasonable and open-minded person, will be excellent admin. [[User:Gen. von Klinkerhoffen|Gen. von Klinkerhoffen]] 23:53, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Appears qualified overall. I can't quite figure out if he's fuzzy in his thinking about attack sites, is using overly wordy descriptions for a clear position, shifted his position, or if the amount of confusion by other users has confused me. Regardless, it is a passive attitude (e.g. you don't have to be an admin ''not'' to remove an attack site) on a single issue outside his stated areas of interest in the realm of moppery. I'm also not prone to moral panic about users making semi-automated edits. I am especially unimpressed by arguments that "There is such a backlog that his judgment must be impaired during extended periods of digging through it" as this appears to be an argument that the backlog should not be tackled. If he does some automated stupidity with the mop, the ArbCom will desysop him, which is deterrent enough. (Also and in a "totally not directed at any specific user or in a PA manner"-kind of way, the annoyance caused by users who want to co-nominate, apparently because they like to feel special but have nothing to add, hurts the candidate.) - [[User:BanyanTree|Banyan]][[User talk:BanyanTree|Tree]] 00:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
# Support - Like everyone else, I spent a good deal of time thinking about this one. In the end, it came down to whether I expect this user to misuse the tools, and I do not. [[User:Philippe|Philippe]] 03:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Firm support''' I was initially inclined to support this request weakly, having had a few minor concerns, but those concerns have been assuaged during the pendency of this RfA, and, indeed, Gracenotes' conduct across this RfA and related discussions has convinced me that he is possessed of sound judgment and an exceedingly deliberative demeanor (and properly, in any case, understands adminship as almost exclusively [[wikt:ministerial|ministerial]]), such that I feel altogether confident in submitting that [[User:Jahiegel/Views on Wikipedia/Requests for adminship|the net effect on the project of Gracenotes' being sysopped should be positive]]. Relative to attack sites, I continue to believe that the deleterious effect on the project of such sites, and, for that matter, of our linking to them, is de minimis and that our consuming time parsing GN's position relative thereto has been altogether more pernicious than the underlying linking to attack sites; my personal views relative to attack sites, though, are surely not relevant, and neither are GN's. His ability to appreciate for what understanding of policy (including of [[WP:NPA|NPA]] and its progeny) a consensus of the community exists and then to act consistent with that consensus is most relevant, and I see nothing to suggest that he would ever substitute his own views for those of the community or that he would be unable successfully to ascertain where consensus might lie. (Should current !vote totals persist, though, I believe quite strongly, for reasons I've outlined at [[WP:BN|BN]], that this request should be closed as unsuccessful). [[User:Jahiegel|Joe]] 07:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''', hesitancy and caution in action are qualities we need ''more'' of in the admin pool. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 07:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
# '''Support''' excellent user who possesses sound judgment and admirable civility. Long story short, I believe the likelihood that GN would deliberately allow a link to an attack page (in the stalker sense) to remain on Wikipedia to be very low—no more than an average Wikipedian in good standing—, and the likelihood that GN would use admin tools to do so would be even lower. No concerns. -[[User:SpuriousQ|SpuriousQ]] ([[User talk:SpuriousQ|talk]]) 07:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''', looks like an okay user, and this doesn't seem to be a good forum to argue about BADSITES. [[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 12:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''', has many tasks that will benefit from being an administrator, has been civil and calm through this very long RfA, has rational points behind his arguments, even when they are disagreed with. -- [[User:Natalya|Nataly<span style="color:green;">a</span>]] 13:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Last minute Support''' Seems to be a great User and has tons of experience on Wikipedia and I don't think he will abuse the tools.<font face="Edwardian Script ITC" size="4">[[User:Arnon Chaffin|Arnon Chaffin]] </font><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"><sup>[[User Talk:Arnon Chaffin|Got a message?]]</sup> </font> 14:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Can't believe he's getting headwind for advocating a nuanced approach. [[User:Dr Zak|Dr Zak]] 15:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''I thought he was already an admin. He will do very good. '''[[User:Felixboy|<span style="color:white;background:#06a">•F<span style="background:#388">e<span style="background:#6a5">l</span>i</span>x•</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Felixboy|T]]</sup>''' 16:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#Qualifies for adminship. [[User:Mike R|Mike R]] 16:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' per above. [[User:Mgiganteus1|Mgiganteus1]] 17:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' since he has just over 4 hours and is almost at 200. --[[User:ST47|ST47]]<small>[[User talk:ST47|Talk]]</small> 18:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' per bandwagon effect -[[User:Paine|Paine]] 18:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Frankly, even if Gracenotes ''did'' support links to attack sites, do you really think he's ever going to add an external link to a page again after this kind of treatment? – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 19:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
# '''Support''' He seems to be a good candidate for the job.[[User:Yelsent|Yelsent]] 19:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - people are entitled to their own opinions - I have no doubt that GN would follow whatever policy were to be introduced, regardless of his feelings on the matter. [[User:Martinp23|Mart]]'''[[User_talk:Martinp23|inp23]]''' 20:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' [[WP:200|WP:201]] [[User:Evilclown93|Evilclown93]] 20:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
'''Oppose'''
# From my experience with Gracenotes, I've found the fellow to be the very thing he apparently eschews; a "process wonk", in his own language. In addition, he is not at all easily approachable and I forsee some community difficulty in working and communicating with him, which is a problem, as potential candidates need strong communication skills and a certain degree of social graces (pardon the pun). [[User talk:Gaillimh|<font color="#008000"><span style="cursor: w-resize">'''gaillimh'''</span></font>]][[User talk:Gaillimh|<sup>Conas tá tú?</sup>]] 20:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#: Out of curiosity, could you elaborate (with diffs, perhaps) upon why you think Gracenotes is unapproachable. I guess in my experience he has been the complete opposite! ^^;; --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 20:45, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#::With all due respect, this user is not [[User:Grace Note]] who you are most probably confusing them with. [[User:Ryan Postlethwaite|'''<
#:::I love that you feel free to say that. I don't think I've ever had anything to do with you though. Hang out on IRC much? [[User:Grace Note|Grace Note]] 02:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#::::It's interesting, though, that there are ''two'' of these "Grace"s, and they're both ''guys'', despite "Grace" more commonly being a girl's name (as in [[Princess Grace]]). [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 02:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
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#: No, I believe Gaillimh is talking about my objection to the deletion of several "joke" processes that were started on April Fool's. I commented that the deletions were out of process and a bit pointless, and Gaillimh indicated that he saw the pages as, essentially, a blemish to Wikipedia. After a while, I saw that it really wasn't worth fighting over, so that was that. He's entitled to his opinion. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 20:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#::Sure thing, Iamunknown. As Gracenotes mentioned, he acted rather silly when he saw that I was deleting [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Jimbo Wales]], because [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gaillimh&diff=119424009&oldid=119406976 "it didn't meet a criterion for speedy deletion"]. In addition, the fellow proceeded to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gaillimh&diff=119424293&oldid=119424118 troll my talk page] before deciding that "it really wasn't worth fighting over." I harbour no ill will towards Gracenotes personally, of course; these diffs and my experiences with the fellow simply lead me to believe that he is a bit too immature and does not possess the necessary candor/grace/affability, etc. to become an admin, where he'll certainly need to employ strong communication skills and a level head [[User talk:Gaillimh|<font color="#008000"><span style="cursor: w-resize">'''gaillimh'''</span></font>]][[User talk:Gaillimh|<sup>Conas tá tú?</sup>]] 21:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
#<s>'''Oppose'''</s>. '''Strong oppose'''. I have to oppose based on Gracenote's answer to my question about attack sites. I feel that websites that out and defame Wikipedians should never be linked to; I certainly can't think of a single encyclopedic reason they would ever have to be. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
#:Changing to strong oppose, because some of GN's responses and his contribs have caused me more concern. The candidate has made only 343 edits to article talk, suggesting very low community interaction over content, against 5,700 edits to articles, many or most of which now appear to have been made by a bot, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=20070508045900&limit=1100&target=Gracenotes] which means they can be racked up in a matter of hours, and the bulk of the edits were made this month. [http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/Tool1/wannabe_kate?username=Gracenotes&site=en.wikipedia.org] I'm also concerned that the bot is being used without bot approval, but Gracenotes says above that it's not a bot (which is either wrong, or it means that he sits mindlessly hitting a button hundreds of times for hours on end), and I'm not keen on the facetious response above when I asked GN why he'd redirected his user page to Gurch's. All this, combined with the attack sites thing, his posting to Wikipedia Review that that site shouldn't be added to the spam blacklist, and his apparent inability to give straightforward and clear answers to questions, is enough to cause me major concern. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
#::To answer some of your concerns:
#::#Most of my communication with other users about articles happens on their user talk page. I often query other editors about particular edits they have made, and such results often in an amicable conclusion. I strongly agree that communication is important, and have my contributions to prove it.
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#:''(removed irony perceived as personal attack)'' Are there other compelling reasons to oppose or is your lack of providing such reasons equal to admitting you can't think of any or that you actually deem this single "reason" as sufficient? ''(rephrased:)'' Do you really believe that it's ''best practice'' to oppose for what could be perceived as purely "political" reasons? —'''[[User:AldeBaer|Alde]][[User talk:AldeBaer|Baer]]''' 06:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#::Hmmm, funny that you mention "Don't be a dick" when that is exactly what you are being by taking up an accusatory and bad faith tone when Slim has done nothing wrong by any stretch of the imagination. Funny how irony works sometimes huh.- [[User:Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg|Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg]] | [[User talk:Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg|Talk]] 07:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#:::That's a strangely aggressive response, AldeBaer, especially as you've indicated elsewhere that you agree with me. I have no political agenda; I just feel strongly that websites that stalk or attack Wikipedians (and I mean attack, rather than criticize) shouldn't be linked to, and I don't want to vote for anyone who feels otherwise. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
#::::I'm sorry if it comes across as aggressive, it surely wasn't meant as an attack of any kind. Maybe I'm getting a bit paranoid. Or is there actually some kind of pattern? It just reminds me of what happened in [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Cla68|two]] [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/LessHeard_vanU|other]] RfAs. You see, I do absolutely agree that attack sites should never be linked to, but RfA shouldn't be the arena for "political activism" of any kind. Besides: Taking into consideration the reassurance that my comment is not meant to be aggressive, I'd really like you to answer my questions if at all possible: Is there another strong reason to oppose Gracenotes? Is it ''best practice'' to oppose for differing opinions on policy? —'''[[User:AldeBaer|Alde]][[User talk:AldeBaer|Baer]]''' 10:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#:::::Yes, I think it is "best practices" to oppose adminship based on matters that can affect users' offline lives. It's a legitimate concern and one that SlimVirgin or anyone is entitled to hold as opposition. Something like "your opinion of what Wikipedia should be differs profoundly from what I believe necessary" ought to be a good enough reason for opposition, as long as the concern is raised in good faith, which it certainly is here. You can call it politics, if that's your preferred dirty word, but whatever it is it's not being done ''for politics' sake'' or ''for power's sake'', only for the safety of real people. That I may argue this unhindered, I won't be registering a vote in this RFA. I'm more interested in the ability for editors to raise good faith opposition without being hounded. You may find SlimVirgin's reasoning unconvincing, but it's unfair to suggest that her concerns should not be raised in this pertinent venue. ··[[ user: coelacan |coe<span style=" font-variant: small-caps" >l</span>]][[ user talk: coelacan |acan]] 13:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' While I have had only minimal interaction with this editor and have never been even remotely involved in a dispute with him, I have to agree with Slimvirgin's analysis. I just can't imagine why Grace would think linking to such a site would be okay. In my opinion, there could simply not be any encyclopedic value added by including links to such websites.- [[User:Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg|Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg]] | [[User talk:Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg|Talk]] 07:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#:I think slim virgin meant in dicussion or wikipedia space, not in articles. [[User:Ryan Postlethwaite|'''<
#::I was referring to anywhere.- [[User:Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg|Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg]] | [[User talk:Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg|Talk]] 09:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' I cannot see us accepting any admins who support links to attack sites. To me that attitude indicates no sensitivity to the plight of the attack victims, and is tantamount to attack in itself. There is no reason to ever link to such a site - if need be, the information can be emailed discretely to ArbComm or anyone else, on a need-to-know basis. [[User:Crum375|Crum375]] 08:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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#:::::::::It already did come up again, and they didn't rule the same way. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Philwelch/Proposed_decision#Attack_sites] [[User talk:Frise|Frise]] 00:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#:::::::::I dont know of a single user who opposes BADSITES because of indifference to the victims of said sites, indeed I would say the exact opposite, ie that opposing BADSITES is also an attitude designed to suport the victims of off site attacks and (without wanting to speak for him) this is nmy impression of Grace's motivations, [[User:SqueakBox|SqueakBox]] 19:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#::::Gracenotes, the BADSITES proposal is not the only issue here. You also expressed opposition on Wikipedia Review to [[User:JzG|Guy]] asking that it be added to the spam blacklist. Doing that would have prevented the scenario you mention above, where an editor intervenes in a discussion to remove a link, because the link wouldn't have been posted in the first place. Your opposition to that, and your expression of it on that very website, suggests you actually support linking to these sites. It worries me, as someone who has been one of their targets, that you want to give them oxygen. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
#:::::The blacklist is a bad solution to a troublesome problem, and it conflicts with my case-by-case argument (that seems to make sense to me). It affects all Wikimedia projects (this would have to be a policy on meta for the links' addition) and allows no exceptions. The links have not been used extensively for spamming, but rather, mostly included in logical discussion that does not promote the site in a spammy manner.
#:::::I was about to note this on-wiki, and had already written some more delineated versions of arguments I suggested above (in opposition to Guy's support), when I saw that the part of the proposed policy about the blacklist had been removed. Surely you can agree that the links should not be added to the blacklist unless each and every major Wikimedia project reaches a consensus on the issue, not just en wikipedia. Perhaps I should make this more clear:
#:::::I am sorry about what you faced. However, your approach to dealing with attack sites reminds me of [[radical Republican]]ism: we've been hurt and we're angry, so now what are we going to do? Well, [[Reconstruction]]. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 21:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#::::::Thank you for your response. My concern is both the position you expressed ''and'' that you posted the opinion to Wikipedia Review, which lent them support. I suspect that if a webite had been trying to out you for 18 months; had posted what they think is your name, photograph, ___location, and IP address; had accused you of working for various intelligence agencies; had called you a whore, an antisemite, and a Nazi; had posted material from someone who has contacted what he thinks are your friends and colleagues in real life; and had published their names and locations too — then you might think differently about approaching the situation on a case-by-case basis. I fear there's a lack of imagination and empathy in your approach. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
#'''Oppose''' I'm one of those that can find no reason to ever link to a website that supports efforts to collaboratively work to expose the real life identities of our contributors. While I do believe that Gracenotes is trying to be practical in his response to the related questions regarding this matter, Admins should be prepared to protect our editors, not permit links to websites that potentially put them in harms way.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 12:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. I find the idea of supporting links to attack sites very disturbing and even potentially dangerous to some editors. [[User:Briangotts|Briangotts]] [[User talk:Briangotts|(Talk)]] [[Special:Contributions/Briangotts|(Contrib)]] 13:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#: So do I. Fortunate, then, that Gracenotes is not supporting links to attack sites. Do you have another reason to oppose? – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 23:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. At first I thought that this applicant deserves a support. I was ready to go ahead, mainly because I had to scroll down to see the oppose. After reading some of them, I have to agree. These attack websites are appalling, and there should be no support for them. [[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] 14:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#:'''Comment''' I don't get it. From what I have read is that Gracenotes advocates the use of ones head, before starting to directly censor anything that someone says is an attackpage-link in a discussion that was about creating policy exactly on those issues and therefore was served with a small example here and there for the less initiated. I find this commendable reasoning for an admin, and one i'd love to see from more admins. You might not agree with him on this one position, but when was the last time all admins agreed on all POVs in Wikipedia. I'm of the utmost confidence that IF Gracenotes were to link such things, he has a good reason to do so. We can always censor that stuff once the discussion is over. The fact that the wording of the arbitration commission is so bad, that it is causing so much confusion already, says more then enough about how to the letter we should interpret arbitration decissions. NOT, AGF and try some thinking for youself once in a while. The results of the Arbcom are not the Wikipedia lawbook, there is no book, only precendences. (and people wonder why no one wants to go trough RfA anymore and others are renouncing their adminship......) --[[User:TheDJ|TheDJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 14:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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#::: I don’t know, Gurch... all of those controversial broken redirects... [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 16:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''', reluctantly, as he is hardworking, knowledgable, and otherwise quite qualified, but his opinion on attack sites is highly troubling; unfortunately it's hard to trust him with the tools in light of this, particularly the ability to view deleted information. [[User:Krimpet|Krimpet]] ([[User talk:Krimpet|talk]]) 19:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#: Just one small thing I and probably quite a few other people have been wondering, and you seem to have been the first to bring it up: could you explain how someone's viewpoint on the implementation of a proposed policy change leads you to believe that they might misuse the ability to view deleted information, given no history of misconduct? – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 23:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''<s>Oppose</s> Strong Oppose''', <s>also reluctantly,</s> because of answer to attack sites question. --[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 19:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#:No longer reluctant, and changing to strong oppose. GN's slippery and evasive answers to questions and general behavior in this RfA has increased my concerns about him becoming an admin. --[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 21:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#:'''Comment''' Also, I just noticed his rejoinder to Gurch. I think having a sense of humor is a plus, and I appreciate his effort to defuse a tense situation, but I don't think this was an appropriate response to trolling.--[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 00:42, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#::How come? I think humor is a perfectly appropriate way to deal with a troll. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 01:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#
#:::: You have a fair point there. Being nice to me is, of course, a capital offense – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 00:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#<s>'''Oppose'''</s> per answer to Question 4, and per Gaillimh. [[User:Musical Linguist|Musical L]][[User talk:Musical Linguist|inguist]] 19:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC) Changing to '''Strong Oppose''' but emphasizing (as on the talk page) that it is ''not'' because Gracenotes does not support [[WP:BADSITES]], and I really urge bureaucrats not to be misled into thinking that the oppose votes are because of a failure to give 100% support to an overzealous attempt to make a new policy. I very much question the judgment and sensitivity of one who knows WR (as he posts there) and can state that it's a "mixed bag". Administrators with a habit of siding with trolls have given trouble before. I am not comfortable with trusting him to see deleted page versions. I share [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Gracenotes&diff=133687811&oldid=133687524 SlimVirgin's concern] that he repeated the opinion of an anon IP and an attack site when she has already told him that she has sent two takedown notices to a site that attacks her (again, we've had trouble with such administrators in the past). I'm uncomfortable with his trolling of Gaillimh over the [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Jimbo Wales]] joke, which indicates lack of the necessary maturity for an admin. Finally, while I wouldn't oppose an otherwise excellent candidate over his signature, I think a signature that takes up three lines in the edit box is unbecoming, and poor example from an administrator. [[User:Musical Linguist|Musical L]][[User talk:Musical Linguist|inguist]] 13:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per answer to question 4. [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 20:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per question 4 sorry, I also blocked Gurch for 24 hours for disrupting this RFA. [[User:Jaranda|Jaranda]] [[User_talk:Jaranda|<sup>wat's sup</sup>]] 20:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''' per the answer given for Q4 and per Briangott's and Dakota's input here. No way. [[User:Junglecat|<font color="green">JungleCat</font>]] <small>[[User talk:Junglecat|<font color="blue">Shiny!</font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Junglecat|<font color="blue">Oohhh!</font>]]</small> 23:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Strong oppose''' per Slim and others. Protecting other editors should be top of your list, not something you're not concerned with. [[User:Grace Note|Grace Note]] 02:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#: We all have our own opinion of what should be top of an administrator's list. Personally, I'd prefer that new administrators had [[:Category:Candidates for speedy deletion]] at the top of their list, but I wouldn't oppose someone who didn't solely for that reason – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 23:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#I don't like your stance on links to attack sites, and feel that this casts significant shadow over whether you have the outlook and judgement needed for an administrator. '''[[User:Daniel|<span style="color:#2E82F4">Daniel</span>]]''' 06:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#Daniel and Musical Linguist make good arguments on this point. [[User:Ral315|Ral315]] [[User talk:Ral315|»]] 06:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#: I re-affirm that I continue to oppose this nomination; I believe that there is absolutely no reason to allow links to websites that willingly post personal information about Wikipedians, and this is an issue that I will not budge on, even slightly. The human impact of Wikipedia is too important. [[User:Ral315|Ral315]] [[User talk:Ral315|»]] 16:54, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''', I'm not comfortable with the whole attack sites/Q4 thing. [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] 11:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' answer to Q4 concerns me. --[[User:Aude|Aude]] <small>([[User talk:Aude|talk]])</small> 12:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. The inclusion of external attack sites on Wikipedians is indefensible. —[[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] | [[User talk:Viriditas|Talk]] 12:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#: That would explain why Gracenotes is not trying to defend it. Do you have another reason to oppose? – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 23:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' with apologies to Gracenotes, Gurch and the noms. Q4 -- [[User:Samir|Samir]] 20:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''
#:Other users appear to comprehend my comments. Is there anything you're confused about? I would be happy to explain or delineate. ([[#boldpoint|My comment above]] summarizes my point of view well, I think.) [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 02:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#::It is rather telling that you turn my assertion that your position doesn't make any sense into a problem with my comprehension. I can't think of a single good reason to support links to attack sites - sites that exist for one reason and one reason only (namely to subvert core principles of Wikipedia), but I am open to arguments I haven't thought of. Your explanation, as it were, simply says you're not going to oppose links to such sites out of blind principle, which is as close to a truism as one could find. One can agree or disagree with the policy at Wikipedia of allowing editors to remain anonymous, but it is not appropriate to implicitly or explicitly encourage violation of this policy by promoting - on Wikipedia itself - sites that seek to subvert it. --[[User:Leifern|Leifern]] 11:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#::: Can you explain where Gracenotes has "implicitly or explicitly encourage[d] violation of this policy?" I'm having trouble making sense of your assertion here. [[User:Echuck215|Charlie]] 11:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' RfA's and RfB's are a community referendum on the [[User:Avraham/RfA-B|judgement]] of a user, and whether or not the community should entrust that user with the tools based on their opinion of his or her judgement. I am afraid this user's response to the issue of attack sites is important enough for me to have enough of a question regarding judgement, that at this point, I am uncomfortable with the idea of adminship. This is in no way shape or form meant as an attack on the user, but my own opinion. -- [[User:Avraham|Avi]] 02:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#: Comment for Avi but also a few others above. Let us all calm down and realize that Gracenotes is not advocating the murder of babies here. He's saying "I don't believe in an absolutist stance about attack sites." Sure, one can question the wisdom of that position but clearly it's a reasoned one and it is shared to a certain extent by a number of people whose judgment has clearly been demonstrated to be sound. RfA is meant to filter out people which the community feels may, by inexperience, imcompetence, character, be harmful to the project. Not people who happen to disagree with a particular way of doing things around here, so long as we believe they'll abide by consensus. We should be thankful that admins don't agree on every single issue about Wikipedia. [[User:Pascal.Tesson|Pascal.Tesson]] 04:15, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
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#:'''Comment''' The ''attack site'' question has been raised at every single active RfA now, so better keep an eye on those. [[User:Daveh4h|daveh4h]] 05:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per answer to Q4 - the anonymity of editors (or for those who so wish) is paramount. There's no justification for being wobbly about this. --[[User:Tickle me|tickle]] [[User_talk:Tickle me|me]] 05:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#: Anonymity? Nobody here is anonymous; at best we are pseudonymous. Could you elaborate on exactly how Gracenotes' conduct and contribution history has affected what little anonymity we have? – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 23:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''... While I readily concede that GN has come a long way from when I first saw hir going on 2 years ago, the recent apparent change of heart (possibly brought on by the fact that at least one attrocious antisemite, ([[User:Dabljuh]], I believe it was) latched onto GN as an assumed ally...something that, to GN's credit, s/he quickly disavowed, but I think the fact that that association seemed natural to the attempting "latcher" speaks volumes about my misgivings re: GN), especially given the positions GN so frequently took ''prior'' to that change of heart, still leaves me wondering about GN's ability and interest to consider disputes dispassionately and act in a genuinely neutral fashion. It may just be that GN gravitates toward conflict-riven topics, I don't know for certain...what I do know is that, like I said, GN has come a long way, but adminship is not a reward for coming a long way, it's a mantle of responsibility, one which I don't see that GN is in particular ''need'' of, much less particularly qualified for, at least at this juncture. [[User:TShilo12|Tom]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">e</span>]][[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 07:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#:As someone who first began editing Wikipedia at articles related to [[circumcision]] (and boy, did I start off on the wrong foot...), where I was immediately suspected to be a sockpuppet of Dabljuh (and thus reading into the whole story), I just have to comment that in my opinion, Dabljuh did indeed make some weird and also offensive remarks, but not before being lured into it by a very vocal minority who has long ago developed an effective pattern of playing dumb on unsuspecting editors. So, sympathising with a victim of that, however inadequate Dabljuh ''reacted'', is not only understandable, but imo a very important and also rare quality. The one thing we do not need is more admins participating in cluster-fu*ks against dissenters. Two thumbs up for empathy. —'''[[User:AldeBaer|Alde]][[User talk:AldeBaer|Baer]]''' 08:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#::But you ''were'' sockpuppeting, Aldebaer, as I understand it. Weren't you? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
#:::Two thumbs up for empathy. —'''[[User:AldeBaer|Alde]][[User talk:AldeBaer|Baer]]''' 20:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#::::Except that it was four thumbs in your case, I believe, or was it six? :-) [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] [[User_talk:SlimVirgin|<sup
#:::::No, only two thumbs at a time. —'''[[User:AldeBaer|Alde]][[User talk:AldeBaer|Baer]]''' 08:00, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#: A somewhat important note on TShilo12's comment: I have thoroughly reviewed the contributions of Gracenotes, [[User:Dabljuh|Dabljuh]] and a few other people and, unless I have missed something substantial I am virtually certain that TShilo12 has mistaken Gracenotes for another user – possibly [[User:Grace Note|Grace Note]], who as stated at the top of the page is a different user entirely – and has based their comment on their experience of ''that'' user's conduct. I have raised this issue on TShilo's talk page and given him the opportunity to comment on this if he so wishes, but have not yet recieved a response beyond a note that he will look at it later. This is an easy mistake to make and I hold nothing against TShilo12 for it, but if his comments are in fact directed at [[User:Gracenotes|Gracenotes]] I believe that he should make some attempt to clarify it. I have found absolutely no trace of any contant between Gracenotes and Dabljuh whatsoever, nor anything to suggest they even edited similar pages. In fact, Gracenotes had made [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&dir=prev&limit=60&target=Gracenotes fewer than 60 edits] at the time of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Dabljuh Dablijuh's final block] – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 01:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#::Sheesh. Gurch, enhance your calm. Your unmittigated advocacy is becoming tiresome. After some of the remarks you've made, I'm inclined to strike my previous rationale for "oppose" and replace it purely with "if Gurch is supporting, I must oppose". You're verging on trollish with some of the things you're saying, and in many cases, I think, far overstepping the bounds of [[WP:DICK]] and [[WP:AGF]]. Chill out and let the RfA stand on its own merits. At this point, if it ultimately fails, from the stance of "numbers games", it's going to be because of your activities more than anything else. Please, just settle down. You're becoming irritatingly shrill. [[User:TShilo12|Tom]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">e</span>]][[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 05:06, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
# Per Avi. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 14:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
# '''Oppose'''. Per Slim, Dakota, Avi. Gracenotes' responses during this RFA show a disturbing lack of empathy and judgement, both of which are extremely important for administrators. Note, contrary to the [[straw man]] statements of supporters, this is not about support for the failed BADSITES policy, which was itself a straw man proposal. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup>[[User_talk:Jayjg|<small
# '''Oppose''' I know that some won't like this, but the attack site position is a no-go for me. While I'm confident that it would have no effect on GraceNotes' stated goal of template editing, the mop is not limited to any one corner of the encyclopaedia, and so a specific reservation will have to translate to a broad opposition. '''[[User:Tewfik|<
#: Gracenotes' name does not contain a capital N. Just pointing this out to avoid further confusion with [[User:Grace Note|Grace Note]] – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 23:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
# '''Oppose''' per concerns about the attack sites. ←[[User:Humus sapiens|Humus sapiens]] <sup>[[User talk:Humus sapiens|ну]][[Special:Contributions/Humus_sapiens|?]]</sup> 01:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per answer to Q4.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 02:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' like so many others have said, the answer to question 4 is troubling. Do we really need a policy so that we can remove links to attack sites? [[User:Captain panda|<font color="orange" face="comic sans ms">Captain</font>]] [[User talk:Captain panda|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">panda</font>]] 02:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#:I'm not sure if I understand your comment, but [[User:Gracenotes]] is not advocating a new policy, or suggesting we need a policy to remove attack links. He feels that [[WP:NPA]] already covers removing links to attack pages. From Q4: "''I came to view the proposed WP:BADSITES as an extension of our policy on No Personal Attacks, as several others did.''" If I am misinterpreting your statement I apologize. [[User:Daveh4h|daveh4h]] 04:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per Avi. [[User:6SJ7|6SJ7]] 20:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#Switching to '''oppose''' from neutral per thinking about this more. While there might be cases where attack sites and sites that out Wikipedians are in fact "mixed bags" and I earlier was in the neutral camp since I thought there could be legitimate disagreement about this, I must question the judgement of someone who thinks there is any significant amount of redeeming material on Wikipedia Review. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 21:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#: When did he say there was a significant amount of redeeming material on Wikipedia Review? – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 23:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per SlimVirgin, Hipocrite. Concerned about attitude towards attack sites and Wikipedia Review. -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 22:18, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#:It's actually [[WP:BEANS|not such a good idea]] to name particular sites unless necessary. —'''[[User:AldeBaer|Alde]][[User talk:AldeBaer|Baer]]''' 22:43, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#:: Oh come on, it's not as though it hasn't already been mentioned a dozen times on both this page and the talk page – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 23:33, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per SlimVirgin. Defense of attack sites is enough to make me vote oppose. The surreptitious use of an unauthorized bot, followed by dishonesty about that, cinches it. – [[User:Quadell|Quadell]] <sup>([[User_talk:Quadell|talk]]) ([[Special:Random|random]])</sup> 23:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#: What defense of attack sites? – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 23:33, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#:I hope that I can put to rest a bad rumor. Do you see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&generator=allpages&gaplimit=50&gapfilterredir=redirects&gapprefix=WP:&prop=revisions&rvprop=content&format=jsonfm&gapfrom=WP:F this page]? It lists 50 redirects starting with "WP:", and the content of each page. You can see it in my browser [http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p28/Grac3not3s/shortcutfix1.jpg here]. Now, using [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1843 Firebug], I can insert live JavaScript into a page. [http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p28/Grac3not3s/shortcutfix2.jpg Here] I can be seen inputting code that alters the text of the page to insert links. I did this a while ago, but am merely going through it again to show you how I did it. Once that code was run, I included the asyncPost function, which made an asynchronous post to the page. [[WP:TW|TWINKLE]] does the same thing. Then, if I saw that the content of the page did not include the template, I initiated the asyncPost function with [http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p28/Grac3not3s/shortcutfix3.jpg that page name as a parameter]. If the template already existed in the page and I had only accidentally pressed it, my script would [http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p28/Grac3not3s/shortcutfix4.jpg warn me] and I would stop editing. I would go through and analyze each of the 50 pages manually, and then use the "gapfrom" parameter provided in the page to continue to the next by altering the URL. The code for the script (crude, but functional) can be seen at my [[User:Gracenotes/Sandbox|sandbox]]. Rest assured, I have never made any unapproved edits. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 23:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#::Gracenotes, what you are describing above is a process of building a computer program in the form of a script, that performs hundreds of edits per hour. The 'manual' part of it consists of your inspection of bulk code and bulk edits - not a process of performing a single edit, inspecting and saving it. At best you inspected your results every 50 edits, at worst you just let it run for hours - we have no way of telling for sure, but [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=20070508045900&limit=1100&target=Gracenotes the contrib history highly suggests a very automated process], with minimal or no human intervention. In any case, whether by bulks of 50's or hundreds, or more than a thousand, this is a robotic operation with a script that you cobbled up, and could have easily introduced massive corruption or errors into Wikipedia. The reason we have [[WP:BOT]] and [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval]] is specifically so that programmatic edits that introduce massive changes in a short time can be inspected, vetted and approved by others, to hopefully catch problems before they occur. If every programmer were to cobble up his/her own program or script and unleashed it on Wikipedia without any peer review, producing massive amounts of edits in a short time, we could have a big mess on our hands. Performing such massive bulk edits with unapproved programs is negligent and irresponsible. [[User:Crum375|Crum375]] 00:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#:::I'm sorry, but you misunderstand my script somewhat. Every single edit involved human intervention. I inspected the content of every single page before running the code, and knew that the text "<code><nowiki>{{r from shortcut}}</nowiki></code>" would be added to each one. I knew this just as certainly as a vandal-fighter knows that by clicking "[rollback]", they will revert to the revision prior to the one the vandal made. "<code>k.innerHTML = k.innerHTML.replace(/"title":\s"([^"]*)"/g, '<a href="javascript:asyncPost(\'$1\')">$1</a> <a href="/wiki/$1?action=edit">(e)</a>');</code>" means that "<code>title: WP:F</code>" would be changed to "<code><nowiki><a href="javascript:asyncPost('WP:F')">WP:F</a> <a href="/wiki/WP:F?action=edit">(e)</a></nowiki></code>". Every single edit would be to be initiated by a click, just at it is with [[WP:TW]]. As far as I know, no scripts that allow user-initiated mass changes to be made have ever required approval. If they did, policy would be put into place by those who are technically knowledgeable. With these scripts, the burden of mistakes is placed on the creator: and I knew that my program worked by close examining the initial diffs. Your desire for unneeded red tape is confusing to me. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 00:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#::::Yes, to clarify exactly what this script does (I know, as I've used the same script myself), I can confirm that you have to individually make each edit, then wait for a confirmation that it has saved and make the next one. All we are talking about is the reduction of the following keystrokes: <code>Alt + Shift + E, Tab, End, {, {, r, space, f, r, o, m, space, s, h, o, r, t, c, u, t, }, }, tab, {, {, r, down arrow, enter, enter, Ctrl + Tab</code> to a single mouse click. That's a simple matter of interface; if you have an issue with interfaces that make edits easier, why aren't we all typing in HTTP requests by hand rather than using a web browser? Gracenotes could not get up and go and do something else and this would keep running, as you seem to suggest – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 00:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#:::::You'll have to excuse me, but that edit history of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=20070508045900&limit=1100&target=Gracenotes 5 non-stop hours of hundreds of edits per hour] is highly suggestive of bulk edits with minimal or no 'inspection'. What Gracenotes calls 'red tape', I call reasonable caution to protect ourselves against extensive damage by automated massive series of edits, and it is the reason behind our [[WP:BOT]] and [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval]] policies. [[User:Crum375|Crum375]] 00:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#::::::Unless you have evidence to back up your claim it is surely an NPA violation. Hundreds of edits per hour is clearly not proof to back up your claim, [[User:SqueakBox|SqueakBox]] 00:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#:::::::Oh, please. I disagree with Crum375's comments but to suggest they're a personal attack is ridiculous – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 00:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#::::::If it were just running as a bot in the background, why would the shortcut edits completely stop while he was making unrelated edits in the middle of those contribs? --[[User talk:Rory096|Rory096]] 01:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#::::::People can [and often do] make hundreds of edits per hour with AWB or reverting vandalism with TWINKLE. You either believe Garcenotes and Gurch when they say the script is only semi-automatic and each edit requires user approval, or you don't. Either you do, as I do, or you don't and are violating [[WP:AGF]] by essentially saying they're lying. [[User:Yonatan|Yonatan]] <sup>[[User_talk:Yonatan|talk]]</sup> 08:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''': The divisiveness of this campaign shows not that there are bad friends and bad enemies fighting it out, as I would ignore that, but rather than the candidate appears to believe strongly enough in ''acting'' without full consensus on this issue that we are going to probably have disruption, accusation, and worry occuring as a result of any promotion. Therefore, I cannot support and must oppose. [[User:Geogre|Geogre]] 01:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#: Huh? Where exactly does he say he plans on taking action (with or without admin tools) on an issue without consensus? It sounds from his comments that he plans on ''not'' taking any action in the contentious area (his major interests are elsewhere), which is probably the most prudent thing to do when no firm consensus either way is set. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 01:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#:Geogre, I also share your concern that my RFA has generated some heat. It promoted, I would be no less careful with my tools, but I fear that the ghost of this RFA would haunt me in whatever non-maintenance interactions I have. Part of the community, a few based upon what appear to be faulty assumptions, has decided that it cannot trust me. However, as I have indicated above, I am a bold-discuss-revert type, and believe edit warring to be counter-productive, and have not done it myself. Your concern must have some sort of basis, though, and I shall not dispute it. Cheers, [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 02:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per SlimVirgin, Geogre, and others. I find his answer to question 4 to be disturbingly accomodating to exactly the wrong people. Perhaps he just phrased his answer poorly, but that sets off enough alarm bells for me that I'm uncomfortable giving him my support. [[User:Nandesuka|Nandesuka]] 01:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per Nandesuka. I'm sorry but that issue is a deal breaker. IMHO for the good of the project, we need more admins who will be tougher on trolls, both off and on site. I just see waaay too much equivocation about the issue from Gracenotes. [[User:Armon|<<-armon->>]] 02:31, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per Slim et al. --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Jpgordon|∇∆∇∆]]</small></sup> 03:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per Slim. [[User:The Prince Manifest|The Prince]] 03:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' While I love Kundera, I dislike equivocation. His replies are entirely unsatisfactory. The badsites issue gets fuzzy at the margins, but is clear at root—they don't belong. This RfA is a good example of a truism: better you disagree with a candidate than are uncertain over a candidate. [[User:Marskell|Marskell]] 06:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' the only time I have had dealings with Gracenotes, he was very rude and overbearing towards a third user.--[[User:Berig|Berig]] 06:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#:Have you got any diffs to show this? [[User:Ryan Postlethwaite|'''<span style="color:#000088;">Ry<span style="color:#220066;">an<span style="color:#550044;"> P<span style="color:#770022;">os<span style="color:#aa0000;">tl</span>et</span>hw</span>ai</span>te</span>''']] 07:40, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per Orangemarlin, Crum, others. GN' first comment with regard to attack sites was " I suppose you mean attack sites as those in which personal attacks are made against Wikipedians, without the intent of improving Wikipedia" - carefully phrased, but worrying, as virtually any attack site can claim to be intended to push Wikipedia to improve. Sometimes people are disingenuous about intent, other times, the effects speak for themselves. I agree with many concerns voiced more articulately, above. [[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]] | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 13:53, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per SlimVirgin. --[[User:DLand|DLand]][[User talk:DLand|<sup style="color:green;"><small>TALK</small></sup>]] 15:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per Dakota, SlimVirgin and others. --[[User:Rabbeinu|Rabbeinu]] 16:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per SlimVirgin above. [[User:Tom harrison|Tom Harrison]] <sup>[[User talk:Tom harrison|Talk]]</sup> 17:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' due to concerns over the candidate's stance on attack sites. [[User:Beit Or|Beit]] [[User talk:Beit Or|Or]] 18:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#The quote cited by Slrubenstein above, demonstrates either communication skills, or worse, an approach, which is not up to par. [[User:El C|El_C]] 18:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' Per above--[[User:Sefringle|Sefringle]] 21:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per comments above and GN's reactions to them. We need calm, deliberative admins, not reactionary. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 22:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#:Pardon? I haven't seen any responses from him that are anything other than calm and deliberative. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 23:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''', I find the concerns to be serious. Per SlimVirgin, Dakota, Tewfik. --[[User:Shamir1|Shamir1]] 22:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per the answers about attack sites. The situation is bad as it is now we do not need an admin supporting inclusions of links there [[User:Alex Bakharev|Alex Bakharev]] 01:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#: Gracenotes does not "support inclusion of links there", he merely opposes blind removal of them – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 01:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per attack site stuff. '''[[User:Blnguyen|Blnguyen]]''' ([[User talk:Blnguyen|bananabucket]]) 01:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' as per SlimVirgin [[User:Kuratowski's Ghost|Kuratowski's Ghost]] 06:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' to the extent that his answers on attack sites are clear, further oppose since he remains unclear. [[User:Smallbones|Smallbones]] 08:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#: Well ''that'' makes no sense... you're opposing him because he's clear, and you're opposing him further because he's unclear? [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 14:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' It does not seem he can be depended on to defeat harmful actions directed toward other users by postings on external sites. [[User:Fred Bauder|Fred Bauder]] 14:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Gracenotes&diff=133987647&oldid=133987406 Yes he can]. He even beat me to it, and I was watching the page like a hawk – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 15:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per SlimVirgin and question 4. [[User:Modernist|Modernist]] 15:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per SlimVirgin. [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] 16:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per a variety of editors and my own misgivings. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">•Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch•</font>]] 18:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#:It may help if you could detail your misgivings? [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] 20:30, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per SlimVirgin, questions.--[[User:Urthogie|Urthogie]] 20:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' as his stance on attack sites is not helpful to the community an admin is supposed to uphold. Also considering his article talk page record (as per Slim Virgin above). [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] [[User talk:Str1977|<sup>(smile back)</sup>]] 21:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per SlimVirgin. --<font color="3300FF">[[User:Spike Wilbury|Spike Wilbury]] </font> 22:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per serious concerns raised above. [[User:Noon|Noon]] 22:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#:I noticed that the only other RfA you seemed to have commented on with this account was Danny's RfA. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Danny&diff=prev&oldid=121401289] Hope to see you around RfA a little more. [[User:Daveh4h|daveh4h]] 23:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose. ''' My opinion is the candidate demonstrates well above average intelligence and verbal ability, but alarmingly below average maturity, empathy and sensitivity. I therefore have serious reservations regarding his judgment. There seems to be a lack of depth in appreciating that behind the cold electronic display are real live warm bodies that can be deeply injured. I expect a candidate to be on their best behavior at their RfA. That’s why I was so taken by the callousness of this reply. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Gracenotes&diff=prev&oldid=133664808 ]. It is an unfortunate fact that many people still don’t fully appreciate that we should behave and regard people no differently in cyberspace than we do in “real life.” My opinion is based entirely upon the candidate’s discussions contained in this RfA and are not meant to suggest anything about his behavior in 3-dimensional space. I wish him all the best. -[[User:Doright|Doright]] 00:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#:With respect to your very thoughtful statement, I am puzzled by the diff you provide. It seems that the candidate was noting that the (unsupported) claim made by one user had been contested by another user, while taking the utmost pains to avoid supporting either claim him(?)self. Cheers, -- [[User:Visviva|Visviva]] 00:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#:Visviva, Doright ''does'' bring up a valid point, one which I do not take lightly. While some of the qualities he brings up are far more thoroughly sought out in crats than admins, I respect the basis of his argument. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 01:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#::It's definetly a point, and this whole discussion and everyone's position has become way too complicated for sure. I understand why you are being so courtious GN, but I have come to known you as one of the best and kindest editors around, and since I have absolutely 0 interest in becoming an admin myself (I like to be able to speak my mind), i'll say this. This whole ordeal is a F'ing disgrace(notes, pun intended) towards you as a person and as an enthiousiastic wikipedia editor in general. --[[User:TheDJ|TheDJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 01:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose.''' As another victim of misogynist cyberstalking relating to my presence on Wikipedia, I have grave concerns about his answers to Q4. [[User:Rebecca|Rebecca]] 05:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose.''' Same reasons as Musical Linguist's. [[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 14:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose.'''I guess I'll leap off the fence here. [[User:Gzuckier|Gzuckier]] 15:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
'''Neutral'''
:# <s>Agreed, he deserves better than this. --[[User:ST47|ST47]]<small>[[User talk:ST47|Talk]]</small> 23:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)</s>
# [[Image:Symbol wtf vote.svg|20px]] '''zOMG drama!''' —[[User:Misza13|Миша]][[User talk:Misza13|<span style="color:green">'''13'''</span>]] 20:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#:<s> '''neutral''' I agree with Gracenotes that what constitutes an attack site may not always be clear cut and there may be examples where it would make sense to link to such sites. My favorite example of this is google groups which includes a variety of usenet posts which insult and out Wikipedians. I don't think anyone is going to argue on that basis that http://groups.google.com should be blacklisted. Furthermore, the ultimate goal does need to be what is best for the project and if an attack site such as ED became sufficiently notable it would make sense to link to it. That said, Gracenotes seems to be saying that the candidate would never or almost never remove a link to an attack site. I find the attitudes thus signifies worrisome. However, I'm not convinced that this would necessarily interfere with Grace's proper use of the admin tools. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 18:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)</s>
#:<strike> I'm really skittish about attack sites.... not from any personal experience, just as a general principle and imagining what may happen. So, this gives me pause, for now anyway. [[User:Gzuckier|Gzuckier]] 15:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)</strike>
# User's work is great but the oppose votes worry me. -<b>[[User:Pilotguy|<span style="color:#800000;">Pilotguy</span>]] <small>[[User_talk:Pilotguy|hold short]]</small></b> 17:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
#:Simple solution: ignore them. Either be worried by the arguments presented, or by the nominated user's actions; the number of !votes in and of themselves should not sway your opinion. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">☯</span>]] //</span> 20:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#:: Presumably Pilot means that the concerns raised by the opposers worry him. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 15:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#: Switching from Support, mostly because of the script-assisted edits. Your responses to Crum375 indicate that you either don't understand [[WP:BOT#Assisted_bots]], or you thought this was a good time to ignore the rules. In this case, the rules are there for good reason: even if your script works perfectly, the wiki process is inherently labour-intensive in terms of quality assurance. An approved bot running with a bot flag would probably have saved the RC patrollers, watchlist checkers, and of course the RfA voters, a substantial amount of time. By ignoring the bot or script approval policy, you avoided a bit of red tape upfront but created more work for other people downstream (not to mention work for yourself). This one instance of failing to respect policy is not enough to make me oppose, but I don't feel confident in supporting at this time. [[User:Clayoquot|Kla'quot]] 04:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#: I do not understand your argument that it creates more work for RC patrollers at all. Let me elaborate on how things work "downstream". I do not believe any experienced RC patroller would even bother checking a single one of Gracenotes' edits, recognizing him as an established contributor, and even one who was not familiar with him, having checked a few of his edits, would quickly learn to ignore the rest. While methods vary, many if not most of the more regular RC patrollers such as myself employ some kind of whitelisting system; Gracenotes has been whitelisted by pgkbot and on my own whitelist for some time, and I imagine others too. If you are under the impression that every edit made to Wikipedia is checked, I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken; there are far, far too many of them. So the ones that aren't suspicious are just ignored. We aren't even able to check all anonymous edits during busy times, and small edits to redirect pages with clear summaries by established users are not making ''any'' more work for anybody; they are simply ignored. As for the watchlist, seriously, who has WP: shortcut redirects on their watchlist? The only case I can think of is if the redirect's creator watchlisted it – and then, seeing the change on their watchlist will actually be useful, as they'll see from it that shortcut redirects should be tagged and hopefully remember to do it the next time. The watchlist argument is slightly more valid when ''articles'' are being edited, but no articles were edited in this case. Your final argument also baffles me. I can't believe anyone here checked every one of Gracenotes' edits (script or otherwise) for inaccuracy before voting. The issue is only creating "more work" for those who wish to make a fuss about it. Finally, how does Gracenotes create more work for himself, by doing things more efficiently (and thus creating ''less'' work for himself)? If you're saying that the extra work caused is in responding to comments on this RfA, then frankly it's not him that has created that work, but the user making the comment. You might as well argue that it's never worth making ''any'' edits, because someone might wish to discuss them with you and that would be more work than if you hadn't made the edit at all. RfAs are meant to be discussions, not "work" – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 06:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#:: You presume a lot more familiarity of the average RC patroller with users in claiming that they would know to ignore Gracenotes edits. Furthermore, this would push down other edits and make them less likely to be looked at by RC patrollers anyways. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 15:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#::: Someone who's checked a dozen diffs and seen exactly the same thing every time is likely, when faced with a choice between another such diff or an edit to an article by an anonymous user with no summary (of which there are an abundance), to take the latter – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 17:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
#::"More work for himself" is in comparison to running an approved bot that automatically saves the edit. I'm not giving Gracenotes heck for making the edits: constructive edits are always welcome. I was trying to point out the illogic in his justification for violating [[WP:BOT]]. [[User:Clayoquot|Kla'quot]] 01:17, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#::: True, but if that were done there would be a potential for unnoticed errors – something that was brought up anyway by people who mistook Gracenotes' edits for bot ones. On the one hand you're advocating the importance of quality assurance, and on the other you're suggesting it would have been better to remove what quality assurance there was – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 01:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
#:::: After thinking some more, I'm switching back to Support. Nobody's perfect. [[User:Clayoquot|Kla'quot]] 04:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
# I appreciate the time [[user:Gracenotes]] spent answering my questions. I've never opposed a request for admin and will not do so today. I am '''neutral'''. [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:·]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 08:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#:<s>'''Oppose''' Anyone who would write that they are "not the type that protects Wikipedians by removing links to attack sites" cannot have access to deleted revisions. Sorry. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] - [[User talk:Hipocrite|«<small>Talk</small>»]] 20:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)</s> <s>'''Neutral''' per clarification of poor turn of phrase. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] - [[User talk:Hipocrite|«<small>Talk</small>»]] 12:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)</s>
#:"in murky situations", which is what I meant and clarified later in the paragraph. Please [[meatball:ReplyToTheWholePost]]. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 20:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#:: I find your explanation unconvincing. The next words you wrote were "if needed, others may do that." My reading is that you will '''not''' remove links to attack sites, like, for instance, a picture of the encyclopedia dramatica talk page with personal and defmatory information about a valued editor if you were the first to see them, instead waiting for someone else to fix it. Your reference to "murky situations" appears to be to the entirety of links to attack sites, even the revolting ones. Would you, or would you not, remove any instance of the link to the encyclopedia dramatica attack site regarding me, if, for instance, you found it on the article about what was assumed, by them, to be one of my many notable real-life identities? [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] - [[User talk:Hipocrite|«<small>Talk</small>»]] 20:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Line 381 ⟶ 591:
#:Hipocrite, in my mind, the only way such a link would end up on Wikipedia would be as a [[WP:NPA|personal attack]], either blatant or veiled, so I would [[WP:RPA|remove it]]. I'm glad to see that someone understands that my logic is based on case-by-case analysis, rather than completely allowing or completely forbidding. In the case you bring up, there is not even a possibility of "erring on the side of protecting Wikipedians", that is, erring at all, (as I said above) by removing the link. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 20:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
#:::Swayed by discussion. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] - [[User talk:Hipocrite|«<small>Talk</small>»]] 12:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
#:<s>'''Oppose'''</s> Wikipedia review is not "A mixed bag," it's throughly without value. Anyone who believes a site whose basic purpose is to determine the real life identity of private editors so they can be harassed by a "privacy advocate" is a mixed bag is not trustworthy to view deleted revisions, which, not only is an adminstrative capacity, but one that is not publicly logged and has caused us problems in the past. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] - [[User talk:Hipocrite|«<small>Talk</small>»]] 19:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#:I responded to this comment, but my response was moved by SlimVirgin. Please read it [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Gracenotes#Response to Hipocrite|here]]. Thanks – [[User talk:Gurch|Gurch]] 22:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#:I apologize about the "mixed bag" comment. It was hasty, and not the phrasing I should have chosen. The problem with using so many metaphors is that occasionally I might forget the meaning of one... [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 22:27, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
#'''Neutral''' Not appropriate to hold candidate to standard of care with words that I could not myself uphold. I suggest you sever all ties with attack sites, and maintain especial care with deleted revisions. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] - [[User talk:Hipocrite|«<small>Talk</small>»]] 14:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#:Your advice is sensible, and I plan on following it. [[User:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">Grace</span><span style="color:#000;">notes</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Gracenotes|<span style="color:#960;">T</span>]]</sup> § 17:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
:''The above adminship discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the talk page of either [[{{NAMESPACE}} talk:{{PAGENAME}}|this nomination]] or the nominated user). No further edits should be made to this page.''</div>
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