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==Requested moves to date==
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# [[Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 4#Requested move]] Liancourt Rocks → Dokdo, result of the debate was move, 1 June 2006
# [[Talk:Dokdo/Archive 10#Requested Move May 2007]]<s> Dokdo → Liancourt Rocks, result of the debate was no move, 28 May 2007</s> --[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 09:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
#:'''Addendum''': This discussion has been reviewed and overturned by the closing admin. Result of the debate after revision was move to "Liancourt Rocks".--<strong>[[User:Husond|<
# [[Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 11#Requested Move May 2007]] Dokdo → Liancourt Rocks, result of the debate was move, 28 May 2007
--[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 22:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
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It says that only two people are living on the island, and then later it says that 3 additional lighthouse keepers are also living there. How is this not a contradiction? [[User:Theanphibian|theanphibian]] 22:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
: The military and the lighthouse keepers are rotated in and out, so they aren't permanent residents. The couple is funded by the government so as to establish a pair of non-military residents (fresh water is shipped in, etc. since there is virtually none on the islets themselves). More direct to your question--the military and keepers are stationed there, the couple is there essentially by choice. Must be quite cozy with less than 0.2 square km, almost all of it rocks, cliffs, and the occasional cave. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<
::Yes, quite cozy indeed. Thanks for the clarification. Would you object to adding "in rotation" to the second thing I quoted up there? I think it's confusing without that. [[User:Theanphibian|theanphibian]] 23:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
::: Looks good to me. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<
::::Well, I guess the only difference between the lighthouse people and the couple living there is that the couple are really "citizens" of the place, while others just work there ''most'' of their time. Hey, if someone wants to live in such a barren place, more power to them. N. Korea has also gone to [[Kijong-dong|great measures]] on the other side to establish "settlement" in the DMZ no man's land. [[User:Theanphibian|theanphibian]] 01:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::The purpose of the citizens' living is EEZ. The island where the resident lives can insist on the economic zone of 200 nautical miles by Convention on the Law of the Sea. The civil servant is not admitted as "economic life of their own."
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For the editors concerned, I'm quite certain myself(obviously) that I'm not a sockpuppet of Davidpx, or Lion369 for that matter. I've requested a re-check, so please don't make any haste judgements on whether this sockpuppetry accusation is "confirmed". [[User:Cydevil38|Cydevil38]] 03:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
:Re-checked. I've updated the RFCU page. '''[[User talk:Voice of All|<
== Unclear ==
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==Renaming Gando==
Now that we've renamed the Dokdo article to the name that is most internationally recognized, I suggest we rename the article on Gando, a piece of territory that is clearly under Chinese control, to Jiandao, the name that is internationally recognized.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Reconquista1412|Reconquista1412]] ([[User talk:Reconquista1412|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Reconquista1412|contribs]]) 09:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>
:Then discuss it on that page. It's irrelevant here.
== The title change from "Dokdo" to "Liancourt Rocks" just proves that... ==
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'''Welcome to the I don't understand the concept of Wikipedia NPOV section'''.
Here's how it works:'' If a naming follows Wikipedia policy then it is defacto NPOV.'' <
::LOL. Your condescending attitude is not appealing to anyone. Senkaku Islands is only used in "respected sources" because it's pushed by the governing authority, Japan, which has a lot of influence and good relations with the United States and Britain. It's a matter of PR. There's no reason why they should not be named Pinnacle Islands really.--[[User:165.244.20.220|165.244.20.220]] 01:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
:::LOevenLer. And neither is your POV and ignorance of Wikipedia policy.
: I guess Wikipedia's naming convetion could be simpler.: "Just use the same name as in Britannica Encyclopedia". That way you can slash a huge number of naming disputes. [[User:Motivr|Motivr]] 13:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
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::::Just to point out that the French Wikipedia still calls it Dokdo and not Liancourt Rocks!
::This is why Sea of Japan is the way it is - most common name for the Sea in English, this is why China is not Middle Kingdom in English. This is why these islands are Liancourt Rocks. I'm sorry but there can be no argument. Once all the major English sources change from Liancourt Rocks to Dokdo, then we can rename this page back to Dokdo. [[User:CenturionZ_1|'''<
::: Actually, the reason why the name Sea of Japan is not just because it is "most common". The name Sea of Japan is JPOV, a result of Japanese militraism during the Pacific War. Does Japan own the sea? And is Korean Ulleung Island located in the middle of Japanese owned Sea? If not, why is it Sea of Japan, not East Sea when it sounds far more neutural, indicating a sea that is located in the east of Asia continent? [[User:Motivr|Motivr]] 14:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Confusion would then reign with [[Baltic Sea]] which is what many languages call the East Sea. Then there's [[East China Sea]] which I'm guessing is Chinese POV? And what about Indian Ocean? Indian POV? [[Sea of Okhotsk]]? Russian POV? And what about English Channel and Norwegian Sea? Norway doesn't own the sea, but its still named after it in English. Have you even noticed it's got''Japan'' in the name in Russian, German and French? I'm sorry but you only claim it's JPOV because you're upset that Japan has a sea named after it, when its the common English name. So what if it developed under Japanese militarism? How many other places still bear the mark of colonialism? Heck the [[Bismarck Sea]] survived two World Wars without a name change. [[User:CenturionZ_1|'''<
::::Some of the places that were mentioned is not plagued by the exact same issue as the naming of this article. I don't think there's a naming dispute for East China Sea, meaning none of the neighboring governments have lodged official disputes on that name. And while there is a naming dispute for the Sea of Japan, there is not a neutral alternative for that territory like there is for Liancourt Rocks, so we are stuck to choose one POV. [[User:HongQiGong|Hong Qi Gong]] <small>([[User talk:HongQiGong|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/HongQiGong|Contribs]])</small> 15:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
::::Anyway this whole Pinnacle Islands thing is a whole different matter. Just because we moved Dokdo to Liancourt Rocks doesn't instantly mean we have to move Senkaku. Again, look at the pages in other European languages - its mostly known as Senkaku islands. Wikipedia is at the moment being perfectly regimented in naming the pages by the name that is most widely used. Once East Sea ends up being more widely used than Sea of Japan then the article will be called the Sea of Japan. I just want to point out that Wikipedia only seems pro-Japan because Japanese names tend to me prevalent in the English literature due to history etc. and Wikipedia cannot make that go away to appease Korea-Japanese relations. I had honestly hoped in this day and age people would be willing to forget about something like the name of some rocks in the ocean. That is all have to say. I do hope you guys can eventually find mutual grounds and stop bickering over this. Why don't you just forget what the article is called and improve the article itself. (Also in regards to finding a neutral name of Sea of Japan, has no one ever consider putting ''both'' Korea and Japan into the name?) [[User:CenturionZ_1|'''<span style="color:#DD0000;">C</span><span style="color:#CC0000;">e</span><span style="color:#BB0000;">n</span><span style="color:#AA0000;">t</span><span style="color:#990000;">y</span></font>''']] – <span style="font-size:xx-small; vertical-align:middle;" class="noprint plainlinksneverexpand">[{{fullurl:User talk:CenturionZ 1|action=edit§ion=new}}<span>reply</span>]• [[Special:Contributions/CenturionZ_1|<span>contribs</span>]]</span> – 15:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::How do we know that the sources that are using "Senkaku" are actually neutral sources? For example, the UN actually recognises Senkaku as Japanese territory. That's a POV problem for us. And for another example, even though BBC News is a highly regarded news source, it still takes a side in naming issues - it continues to use "Burma" to refer to [[Myanmar]], even though "Myanmar" is the officially recognised name by the Myanmar government. I think that the very use of either "Senkaku" or "Diaoyutai" would make a source POV. Firstly, I think "common usage" is difficult to prove, and secondly, I don't think it should override the NPOV policy. [[User:HongQiGong|Hong Qi Gong]] <small>([[User talk:HongQiGong|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/HongQiGong|Contribs]])</small> 18:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::: I guess the best approach is to talk about the Senkaku problem on the Senkaku page rather than here, they are more knowledgeable about it. The main point that I might offer is that sovereignty has nothing to do with naming. It might be Japanese territory, it might be Chinese, but it doesn't matter for the name. Personally, another thing I might look at would be weight--in the case of Dokdo/Takeshima, almost every reference to them is about the conflict, and almost every reference (~95%+) refers to both of them. That strongly suggests that the dispute itself if much more well known than any other reference to the place. It might be the same for Senkaku, I really don't know. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with the name Pinnacle, but I don't think anyone should go through and unilaterally move any page without discussion (there were several cases mentioned, not just Senkaku) if for no other reason than I doubt any other place in the world is "just like Liancourt Rocks." Again, I have no problem with Pinnacle being the title, just someone has to get the information together (we discussed this here for what, like 400KB of text? I hope it might be a lot less difficult to discuss the others). [[User:128.205.33.79|128.205.33.79]] 18:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Right. I'm still considering whether or not to initiate a formal discussion on renaming the Senkaku article. These things are very time-consuming and there are more enjoyable editing I can do. I don't think we should rename the Senkaku article just because the Liancourt article was renamed, but on the other hand, previous polls had people voting for Senkaku just because Liancourt was named Dokdo, for consistency sake. [[User:HongQiGong|Hong Qi Gong]] <small>([[User talk:HongQiGong|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/HongQiGong|Contribs]])</small> 18:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::::You make good points, and you're obviously trying to find the correct answers here. My advice is to in no way let any discussion try to compare the two. Choose the name by Wikipedia policy. If this article goes by Wikipedia policy and Senkaku does too then by definition it is fair. Just let the discussion be by Wikipedia policy. If you introduce comparisons then you will simply confuse the issue because people will start introducing reasons for the name on this page that are incorrect (such as Liancourt Rocks is the neutral name in that it is not Japanese or Korean). This is wrong. Liancourt Rocks is the NPOV name because it adheres to Wikipedia Policy of being the most common in English (in respected sources etc). Do the same for Senkaku. Keep the discussion on Wikipedia Policy and you will have a far less painful experience. [[User:221.133.86.163|221.133.86.163]] 16:35, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
:Unscientific, but useful for a (very) rough estimation of frequency of use in English, via Google searches; a) about 485,000 for dokdo / about 78,800 for tokdo / about 74,900 for tokto = a total of 638,700; b) about 597,000 for takeshima (any other Romanizations?); c) about 48,700 for Liancourt Rocks. [[User:Dprkstudies|Dprkstudies]] 18:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::You need to change that useful to 'useless'. Did you remove all the counts that are on non-English pages? Did you remove all the counts that simply refer to Dokdo 'as the Korean name'. Did you remove all counts that include the term 'Wikipedia'? The Google count was discussed at ridiculous major length in the last discussion. The only count that has a slight agreement with some users had Dokdo and Takeshima within 10%. The name Liancourt Rocks was chosen because very few sources actually use either Dokdo or Takeshima but instead refer to them as the Korean/Japanese name, thus excluding them from the count. For example, BBC never uses Dokdo or Takeshima AS the name. But often says the islands are also called Liancourt Rocks. So a simple count of the BBC gives Liancourt the smallest number, but a look at the actual usage gives Liancourt Rocks the highest usage. For this reason, simple counts are next to useless. [[User:221.133.86.163|221.133.86.163]] 02:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
:::I didn't go through the over 1 million total pages to check that, sorry, but I'd love to see the results if someone does. You forgot to ask the same about Takeshima, or how many of those 48.7k times "Liancourt Rocks" was also mentioned in the same 'a.k.a.' context, thereby excluding those counts. I'm well aware of the 'reason' Liancourt Rocks was chosen, and ridicule the entire process and pretension of NPOV in this case as absurd. I’m not saying that in blind support of a KPOV, as I favor “Sea of Japan” over “East Sea” and "Senkaku" over whatever. [[User:Dprkstudies|Dprkstudies]] 12:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Yes, but you can use the Google advanced search to at least reduce it to English language pages. The extended discussion before already essentially showed that Takeshima and Dokdo almost always appeared together. The Liancourt Rocks aka is not really a problem because by definition that aka would be the English name. Bear in mind, according to Wikipedia Naming Policy for Geographic Entities, we aren't even supposed to be using Google anyway. The criteria is based on respected sources. The Google count is only really meant to be used when a single local authority has 2 or more names and there isn't an established English name. This is not such a case. Frankly, the Google count is a big time-waster unless there is a clear difference.
The most common English name for these islets is "Dokdo". It is the name used by the governing authority South Korea. It is not any less NPOV than "Senkaku Islands". Language does not a matter in NPOV. Please be consistent and fair. Some of you are really showing your colors.--[[User:165.244.20.220|165.244.20.220]] 01:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
:Sorry, but the most common name isn't Dokdo. That is what the discussion was about. You have to remove all uses where it says 'Dokdo is the Korean name etc.' This page is consistent and fair. It is consistent with Wikipedia policy. The discussion about which is the most common name has just finished. There is no point in discussing it all over again. Wait a few months and then bring it back up again if you wish.
:If you dispute that Senkaku Islands is the most common name in English, then <span style="color:#A00;">discuss that on the Senkaku page</span>. It doesn't belong here. After all, what's the point of saying: "Senkaku Islands is not the most common English name" on the Liancourt Rocks page? [[User:221.133.86.163|221.133.86.163]] 16:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
== Samguk Sagi ==
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:The more I read about this, the more I also come to this conclusion. Naming shouldn't be a problem on the English Wikipedia because we have the Liancourt Rocks name. Looking, it seems that it is used by the CIA factbook and all other Western sources that are clearly credible. The rest of the world can call them whatever they want, the US, England, and other English speaking nations can pretty well agree it to be Liancourt Rocks (if for no other reason than to not piss someone off). [[User:Theanphibian|theanphibian]] 19:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
:"Korean make Korean territory's english name." This is known as Argument by Ignorance (of Wikipedia Policy). [[User:221.133.86.163|221.133.86.163]] 10:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
This guy is the same one that posted this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Three_Sovereigns_and_Five_Emperors "They are all Koreans"
Stupid Korean Nationalist
== Completed Data Against Meat Puppetry Accusation ==
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== Article to stay as [[Liancourt Rocks]] for now ==
I've re-reviewed the move proposal and decided not to overturn my second closure. Putting aside the reciprocal sockpuppetry accusations, I still find a majority of users asking for this article to be moved. The main argument backing "Liancourt Rocks" ([[WP:NPOV]]) also seems to weigh more than the main argument backing "Dokdo" (rocks being in disputed possession of South Korea). This is my final decision and I shall not reopen this case, for the sake of my mental sanity. I'm not against further move proposals for this article in the near future though. --<strong>[[User:Husond|<
:It was a good fight, everyone. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 02:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC))
::I really appreciate Husond's bravery.--[[User:Michael Friedrich|Michael Friedrich]] 11:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
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I'm talking about "pro-Liancourt Rocks" voters being planted. Perhaps an investigation is warranted?--[[User:165.244.20.220|165.244.20.220]] 02:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
:''The main argument backing "Liancourt Rocks" (WP:NPOV) also seems to weigh more than the main argument backing "Dokdo"'' . Husond's decision was also based on the arguments presented not just the count. In other words, if people want it changed back, they need to focus on their argument not just a vote count. [[User:221.133.86.163|221.133.86.163]] 10:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, in websites like Wikipedia where anybody can enter freely, voting is not that effective. However, there is no way we can do better. [[User:Kingj123|Kingj123]] 02:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
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:::[[Senkaku Islands]], where previous polls to move the article to a neutral name had voters voting to keep at the current name because this article was named Dokdo, for consistency sake. [[User:HongQiGong|Hong Qi Gong]] <small>([[User talk:HongQiGong|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/HongQiGong|Contribs]])</small> 03:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
::::The archiving of debates on page moves when they have been as acrimonious is quite common. It draws a line under the debate. You will notice that I did the same when it appeared that the debate had gone the other way.([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADokdo%2FArchive_10&diff=134277600&oldid=134258135 move to archive 10][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ALiancourt_Rocks%2FArchive_11&diff=134424315&oldid=134398066 move to archive 11]). If after a break of six months someone wishes to reopen this acrimonious debate then so be it. But for at least the next six months can we stop this debate as it is not constructive and is introducing disharmony into the project? (See [[Talk:Dokdo/Archive 7#Rename vote]] (when the page name was Dokdo) where I first mentioned that moves should be advertised on WP:RM and that there is a tradition of waiting at least six months to propose a return move on WP:RM) --[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 08:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
From what I understand there was a complaint about the previous poll that no closing date was announced. There was none for this one either. And it was a much closer vote. Why aren't people up and arms about that? This was a very controversial move. I don't think it should have been moved without a two-thirds majority. Dubious, dubious, dubious.--
== By the way, what was the rationale for the move? ==
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::It seems pretty unreasonable for you to have such a dismissive attitude about even the possibility of good faith disagreements regarding what constitutes "improvements to the article". There is absolutely no reason why any admin would consider himself above warranting their edit decisions in spite of requests for explanation.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 20:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
What was the reason for the move? I don't get it. Also, shouldn't a move within less than six months require more than a slight majority? This poll was a total sham, in my opinion. And how exactly is "DOKDO" not acceptable as an English name while "SENKAKU ISLANDS" is?--
:Because it's by Wikipedia policy it seems. The argument was that Dokdo is not the acceptable English name because it is not commonly used in English by respected sources except when referring to what Koreans call it. Go to Encyclopedias and the U.N. and they call it Liancourt Rocks. Senkaku is a difference issue. The name on English Wikipedia is what entities are called in English - this is determined by respected sources. If respected sources call the islands Senkaku in English and Liancourt in English then those are the correct NPOV names. Reading through the archives the rationale seemed to be that Dokdo and Takeshima are basically never used by respected sources except to report the Korean and Japanese names - which doesn't count.[[User:221.133.86.163|221.133.86.163]] 16:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
:I read the discussion again and I still don't see the logic behind putting up a poll asking for a move. Can somebody please tell me the justification? What was the compelling reason that was behind suggesting a move?--
==Dokdo Is The Most Common English Name==
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Plug in: Dokdo OR Tokdo OR Tokto OR "Dok Do" OR "Tok Do". Now there are 640,000. You could add in even more variations but I figured these were the most common. And yes, all of the results (on the first page, I haven't clicked through all three billion pages yet) are relavant unlike with Takeshima.[[User:Jin29|Jin29]] 07:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
::Seems this was all done before. Read the archives. Did you search only English language pages? Did you remove all pages that are trying to promote usage rather than actually reflect it? Did you remove all pages that simply say, It's called Dokdo in Korea? Did you remove all pages that are not respected sources? It's for this reason Google is not really reliable. A Japanese person could for example write a page with Takeshima in English and Google would count it. But it's meaningless because such a page doesn't reflect English usage. You need to remember that these are tiny islands that 99.99% of English speakers haven't even heard of. So there is no common usage of any name. Therefore we go to respected sources and use those. Google counts are next to useless in these cases. [[User:221.133.86.163|221.133.86.163]] 16:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
::So what? Those "Dokdo" "Tokdo" "Tokto" "Dok do" "Tokdo" pages could be by Koreans. That does not mean "Dokdo" is the most common in "English". Besides, CIA uses Liancourt Rocks. I think this fact can be a good reason to use "Liancourt Rocks" in '''ENGLISH''' wikipedia.--[[User:Michael Friedrich|Michael Friedrich]] 14:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
:Firstly, please make new comments at the bottom of the talk page. Second, the debate over whether to move or not is closed for the time being. Thirdly, you're wrong; the variations on Dokdo introduce far more irrelevant returns than relevant ones. See the archive section relating to Wikimachine's test based on Komdori's criteria. And lastly, google tests are unreliable by their very nature, and shouldn't be used to determine which usage is higher. [[User:Parsecboy|Parsecboy]] 12:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
::For once and for all, Dokdo is English. D-O-K-D-O. Just like S-E-N-K-A-K-U. It's hard for me to understand how you can accept one and not the other? Please tell me, the people who keep saying Dokdo is "not English" how you can accept Senkaku and not Dokdo in English Wikipedia???--
:::Because you won't generally find respected sources using Dokdo or Takeshima. Google is not a respected source. Try the Columbia Encyclopedia. You can accept Senkaku if it's what respected sources call those islands.
"Takeshima" and "Tokto" (in any of its spellins) are controversial names: pro-Japanese people will favour "Takeshima", while pro-Korean people will favour "Tokto" (or any of its other spellings). However, "Liancourt Rocks" is neither Japanese nor Korean, so maybe that is a more neutral name?
I'm not sure that Google is very useful for determing the most common name in English. Searching for "Takeshima" or "Tokto" will not only find web pages in English, but also pages in French, German, Spanish etc. and you won't know how many of the results actually are in English. Even by limiting the language to English (using Google's search options) will yield lots of results in other languages, because many web pages have no or wrong language specifications. ([[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] 20:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC))
LOL then what's up with the Senkaku Island. Isnt this "pro-Japanese"? --[[User:DandanxD|DandanxD]] 13:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
==Academic Journals==
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It has happened before and it will happen again. Somehow, some people feel that using a "native" name lends them authenticity and high moral ground. I have no idea why. This is English Wikipedia, not a soapbox. Some time ago, I tried to change [[Sinmiyangyo]] to a more common English name, a name that people could understand, and it led to an acrimonious exchange that prompted me to leave Wikipedia. As things stand now, Wikipedia is generating more text on talk pages than on the actual articles, and I think all of us should start to reconsider the value of these name-debates. Again, this is English Wikipedia. I will stay on the sidelines for the time being.--[[User:Amban|Amban]] 22:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
:My. God. Are you completely daft? I don't know what Sinmiyangyo is, but if it's commonly used then there's no reason why it shouldn't be named so. Dokdo is also English. And it is very commonly used. If you can read English and you can read D-O-K-D-O, then it's English. Just like S-U-S-H-I. I picked two words that have the same number of letters, so you can understand that a little easier. Did you understand the logic? If not, please let me know and I'll try to explain in a more simple way. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/211.212.69.195|211.212.69.195]] ([[User talk:211.212.69.195|talk]]) </span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP -->
:Is 'Watashi wa baka desu' English then?
::Thank you for enlightening me.--[[User:Amban|Amban]] 16:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:: I don't think I've ever edited that article (or witnessed the exchange Amban is mentioning), but 211.212.69.195, that's the kind of civility that will draw editors like a magnet back to Wikipedia who left because of incivil bickering. Try to stay calm. As for your example, all this time I thought French and German were so different even though English speakers can read them aloud. Little did I know it was because they are also evidently composed exclusively of English words since they can be expressed with the same alphabet. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 16:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::The problem is... we had this sort of discussion just a moment ago. What's the point of discussing about it after the move? I have to say, if these new accounts & anon users had came in during the poll, they would have messed up everything. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 22:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC))
== The map gallery ==
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:::A Chosun government interpreted as the record seen Ullengdo from a Korean peninsula before.[http://homepage2.nifty.com/oppekepe/takeshima/eng/korea/BF_17C/source/syukusou20_2.gif] This photograph used '''500mm lens'''.[http://www.dkbnews.com/bbs/data/dica/1110987941/ul1.jpg] And, it took 40 days to take this picture. The Chosun government official who climbed the mountain of Ullengdo on a fine day in 1882 reported to the Chosun king that I can't see anything.--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 03:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::A logbook of the warship of Japan recorded that Liancourt Rocks had been seen from Ullengdo '''with a telescope'''. However this cannot prove that Liancourt Rocks can see from Ullengdo '''by the naked eye'''. I think that there is a possibility. However, it might be extremely rare. Moreover in International Law, it doesn't become whether see it grounds at all.--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 03:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::::''''When the weather conditions are good''', the islands can be seen each other.' ... it is exactly what the 'Chosun Wangjo Shilok' had described about the 'Uleung' and the 'Usan' in the 15th century. At least, it proves that they are not so close. [[User:Jtm71|Jtm71]] 07:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::Chosun Wangjo Shilok？ Plaese teach the chinese character of the the title of the book and original text.Being possible to rarely see even on a fine day by the naked eye is true.--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 07:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Sorry, I thought you knew that sentence. It is '朝鮮王朝實錄' in chinese, and the sentence is like this ... '二島相去不遠, 風日淸明, 則可望見' [[User:Jtm71|Jtm71]] 10:24, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::"相(each)" modifies "不遠(not far)". However, it doesn't modify "可望見(vissible)." If the text is "則可'''相'''望見", your translation is correct. "Two islands are not so much far away. It is possible to see on a fine day." is an accurate translation. Where did they see? What did they see? These are uncertain in this document. "Ullendo is seen from the peninsula on a fine day" was established as the description that showed the position of Ullengdo.
:::::
:::::新増東国輿地勝覧: 三峯及業掌空 南峯梢卑 風日清明則峯頭樹木 及山根沙渚 歴々可見
:::::東海中右于山一云武陵一云羽陵一云?陵周二百余里東西七十余里南北五十 余里三峯?〓聳空(倭〓漁探者時到)純是石山自本県天晴而登高望見則如[http://e-kyujanggak.snu.ac.kr/GDS/GDS_EPJICHRR.jsp?setid=168228&pos=1&ptype=list&subtype=ej&cn=GR33590_08&lclass=01&subtitlenum=5582]--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 12:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::::I think it is the common sence which needed to understand the meaning of that sentence. 'The two island is not far from each other, if the weather is clear, can be seen' ... Do you think the 'Dokdo' was seen from the east coast of Korea ? [[User:Jtm71|Jtm71]] 12:50, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::Therefore, In 二島相去不遠, there is no conjunction. "The two island is not far from each other" and "if the weather is clear, can be seen" is separated. The interpretation like you is also possible. However, the interpretation of seeing it from the peninsula is also possible. Man at later years interpreted to see Ullengdo from the peninsula. --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 13:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::::That sentence is part of a brief note. The name 'Uleung' and 'Usan' were treated equal. Can you find any island you insist as 'Dokdo' in the 'google earth' ? [[User:Jtm71|Jtm71]] 14:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::As Dokdo? There is no Dokdo in old maps. Can you see the character of '獨島' in the old map? Do not you know jukdo to be larger than Liancourt Rocks? Do you know Liancourt Rocks is in the southeast of Ullengdo? --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 16:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Did you see the 'google earth' ? There is fog around the area. That is why I did not find that. Then, was it the island which Japan called 'Takeshima' ? The 'Jukdo' is large enough to confuse it with 'Dokdo'. (And, there is no 'bamboo(竹)' in the 'Dokdo' island.) [[User:Jtm71|Jtm71]] 22:01, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::Current topic is usando in the '''Chosun''' map.--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 01:43, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
::::In the sentence '于山武陵二島在縣正東海中 二島相去不遠 風日淸明 則可望見', when the position of observation are not mentioned, it is natural to find that in the closer sentence. They are 'two islands'. The name '武陵' and '于山' were treated equal. And 'The distance' and 'visable' are closely related. [[User:Jtm71|Jtm71]] 22:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::If you study the map, the position is clear.[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c8/Hachidou2.jpg] Usando is the west of Uleungdo. Usando is big island. Usando is composed of one island.That is, it is an island that doesn't exist at that time. --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 08:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:There are two kinds of maps of Korea. One kind in which island of almost the same shape as Ullengdo is drawn. Usando is often drawn in the west of Ullengdo, and there are small number of maps drawn in the north and the south, too. I am calling the island in these maps flying Usando.[http://homepage2.nifty.com/oppekepe/takeshima/eng/korea/BF_17C/KOR_BF17C.html] Another kind maps depicts small usando in the close vicinity of Ullendgo. The geographical features are corresponding to jyukdo.[http://homepage2.nifty.com/oppekepe/takeshima/eng/korea/AF_17C/KOR_AF17C.html]I can make such an overlapping map to help the viewer's understanding if there is precise image data.--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 02:24, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::When you look closer, you can find that the 'uleung' island also is not so far away from the east coast. It is the old way of representing the island in the distance to save the paper and the space. [[User:Jtm71|Jtm71]] 07:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Please present evidence. Is it your hope or excuse? It is at 1608 that the telescope was invented. It cannot make a mistake in the direction if Liancourt Rocks can see from Ullengdo. The direction can be specified from the position of the sun and the island even if there is no compass. Liancourt Rocks in the east of Ullengdo cannot be drawn in the west. Which of your and my insistence is persuasive? The person who reads this article should judge. --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 07:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::Is there any mention that he had a telescope ? As you asserted, if the weather is not good enough, the island cannot be seen each other. [[User:Jtm71|Jtm71]] 10:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::In these maps, even if paper is not added, Usando can be drawn east more.[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e5/Heajwa_chondo.jpg][http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/Tongguk.jpg] There are Chosun maps where Usando was assumed to be a name of Ullengdo, too.[ http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=451] --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 08:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::: OK, so staying on topic, do any of the maps stay? They might be old maps, but they aren't necessarily relevant if they don't add to the article. Putting up maps of other islands that can see Liancourt is less than helpful, and it should be obvious to someone who isn't well versed with the topic already. Japan and Korea claims it, so such maps of other places are about as relevant as putting picturse of downtown Tokyo and Seoul in the gallery. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 10:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::The fact that there are so many maps about the Ulung and the Usan means that the people of Chosun Dynasty recognized the Usan as a island which had a different area, not as a small island neighboring the Ulung island. [[User:Jtm71|Jtm71]] 10:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Is "Not as a small island neighboring the Ulung island" your hope? Liancourt Rocks is difficult to see on a fine day without telescope. Was there a telescope in Korea in the 15th century? What is the reason why the direction is drawn in the opposite? Liancourt Rocks is composed of two islands. Are not two islands described why? It is being written in the old Japanese maps.[http://homepage2.nifty.com/oppekepe/takeshima/eng/japan/Edo/img/edo_ihei_ori.jpg][http://homepage2.nifty.com/oppekepe/takeshima/eng/japan/Edo/img/edo_1720_ori.jpg] --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 12:35, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::If you can read Korean, refer [http://www.dokdocenter.org/new/personal/personal_news.htm?tb=openb_personal_news&curDir=etcmenu/personalboard&idx=630&page=8&searchfield=&searchword=&mode=r this link], and [http://dokdo.naezip.net/Dokdo/Dokdo7-1.htm this]. They say, it is about 40 ~ 50 days on which the 'Dokdo' can be seen from the 'UleungDo'. [[User:Jtm71|Jtm71]] 12:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::: As for this topic, right now it doesn't really matter who can see what from where and what that may or may not imply about ownership. The topic here is whether or not the maps belong in the gallery or not. Is there any relevant input as to that? --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 12:58, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
This is a map where an actual island was overlapped with Donguk jido of the map gallery.[http://homepage2.nifty.com/oppekepe/wiki.gif] I do not understand logic that the Usando on this map is Liancourt Rocks at all. --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 16:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::I think who draw the map was confused at that time. If the island is close enough to see ordinarily, why are the positions of the island so different in each map ? [[User:Jtm71|Jtm71]] 22:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
:::at that time? When did Korea accurately recognize Liancourt Rocks? Is a big island in the west of Ulueng-do Liancourt Rocks? Most maps after the 17th century are almost the same positions, and shape. The position and shape of Usando in the maps is corresponding to jukdo. Is this Usando Liancourt Rocks?
:::*Map of the whole country [http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YwAHD48f4DzolNvqAOKmMzJPJ9ekUvUyB9k03AYiEG8EiNetmpvYMunztf0a27PgxUFFIIjK4*kL!NDg5f!rWTuEGAxeQvJsugLApddpPcR*weDQki3Ztp055yTR!VmxUbhm4aPhy4TCntdmF*BBbA/Usando%20Map%20Set.JPG?dc=4675592442307060140]
:::*Detailed map of Ulueng-do[http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=453]--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 01:36, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
:::: I suggest we move the maps from the gallery onto the talk page that don't have explicit indications of where the islets are. Maybe we can get some discussion going and perhaps some modified versions. As it is, they are basically useless to someone coming here for information. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 18:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::I think that I can obtain the modification and the publishing permission about the Japanese maps.[http://homepage2.nifty.com/oppekepe/takeshima/eng/japan/Edo/JPN_EDO.html] How about the Korean maps? I want the detailed map data of the public ___domain for the modification.--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 17:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
== Discussion for renaming [[Senkaku Islands]] and [[Sinmiyangyo]]==
Line 426 ⟶ 469:
Just so there's no confusion, [[User:Jjok]] appended [[Sinmiyangyo]] at the end of the title of this section of the Talk page. I've only initiated a discussion at [[Senkaku Islands]], and as far as I can remember, I have never edited or commented at [[Sinmiyangyo]]. I assume this means he plans on initiating a discussion at [[Sinmiyangyo]]. [[User:HongQiGong|Hong Qi Gong]] <small>([[User talk:HongQiGong|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/HongQiGong|Contribs]])</small> 06:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
== "alternatively administered"? ==
I thought the whole thing was controlled by South Korea. What is "alternatively administered"? Is there actual Japanese administrative presence on the islands? --[[User:PalaceGuard008|PalaceGuard008]] 12:57, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
*Administration is not a placement of the area as part of administrative regions. Administration is a present sovereignty and controll of the islets which is protested by Japan.
*Only one country administers the disputed areas, never two.
*"Alternatively administered" is not a correct term used. Research and study needed.
[[User:Kingj123|Kingj123]] 13:39, 2 June 2007 (UTC)<br />
The cadaster registration are administerative actions which is admited by the judicial precedent and Japan do. On International Law, it is accurate that South Korea is '''occupying''' and the sovereignty(contain administration) is not fixed. UN also say sovereignty is unsettled.--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 14:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Koreans are at least controlling the islets. Japanese cannot enter. How can a country administer when they can't even enter these rocks? [[User:Kingj123|Kingj123]] 14:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Japanese users have nothing to say beyond international laws, but is that everything about Dokdo? Is it ethical?
*Is that a moral perspective to justify the honest ownership of Dokdo?
*Is UN's way the only right way, to judge the the ownership and sovereignity of Dokdo islets.
*Is it right to just focus on international law for Dokdo Article?
*And neutrally speaking, which country would gain free benifit?
*Any proof of UN's immediate response to Korean sovereignity, any effort from UN to stop SK patrols?
[[User:Kingj123|Kingj123]] 14:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
: I think I've seen this comment from you three times, kingj. I'm not sure where your argument is, that international laws should just be ignored and we go on moral imperative? Wikipedia for one explicitly disallows using "moral" arguments. The UN doesn't stop the Korean patrols ''or the Japanese patrols'' around the islands. They stay out of this issue. Korea explicitly refuses to go to any internation arbitration regarding this issue. The fact is both countries mirror one another in almost every way regarding the islands essentially without residents (no towns, cities, and so on). --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 15:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
::So what's your point, Komdori? Dokdo has at least one couple living on the it. It's too small to be a city or a town. You keep bringing up these unrealistic points that sound good when you mention it but flawed/terrible under closer inspection. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 22:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC))
:::So, Kingj, tell me. Are "they" reverting your removal of "alternatively administered"? Do you need some help? Because I'll offer some. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 22:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC))
::::Philip Baird Shearer, your revert is invalid if you do not provide warrants behind your revert. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 01:22, 3 June 2007 (UTC))
... the discussion is getting sidetracked. the question is, what does everyone think about the term "alternatively administered"?
The article seems to indicate that Korea controls the islands, but Japan sometimes does surveys in the EEZ, is that right?
If that is the case, then incursions into the EEZ is not "administration", by the simple fact that the EEZ is not part of the territorial sea nor contiguous zone. Unless there is some evidence that Japan has some control over the land territory, the territorial sea (12 nm zone), or the contiguous zone (24 nm zone), then I don't think "alternatively administered" is justified. --[[User:PalaceGuard008|PalaceGuard008]] 01:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
::I want to retouch it as follows.
::::Liancourt Rocks are a group of disputed islets in the Sea of Japan (East Sea) currently occupied by South Korea (where they are known as Dokdo (Solitary islands)), but also claimed by Japan (where they are known as Takeshima (Bamboo islands)).
::I think that it is an appropriate expression in International Law. --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 02:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Thanks for making that concession, Opp2. It used to be a big deal for you in the dispute prior to the last. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 02:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC))
The Kyodo News reference(ref number 2 I think) is a Japanese news source that specficially states that the administration over islands is by Korea. Japanese administration or alternative administration is not even mentioned. Accordingly, I don't see a reason why this referenced fact should be left out. "Alternative administration" by Japan is just POV attempt at match tit for tat. It's unreferenced and doesn't belong. If anyone has references please provide it. Thanks.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 04:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
: What is wrong with the compromise version? Why do we need to force down a word that is essentially meaningless? We can't really consider the "propaganda couple" as inhabitants, as they are specifically placed there by the government. The consensus version seems to be agreed to by both people on the Japanese and Korean sides. The administrative work (on both sides) is by far accomplished solely by the paperwork of their respective towns/counties/etc. Who happens to be standing on it today or tomorrow is essentially insignificant as they are not doing any administrative work, they are doing the "controlling" work. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 16:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::I don't think the term is meaningless. Administration does include paperwork done by Shimane and Ulleung but the term refers primarily to overseeing and managing of dock, lighthouse, visitors to islands, maintenance, etc.. If you want to visit the islands, conduct research on islands, etc., you need to submit to Korean administration. If even a Japanese source states this as fact, I don't see why it needs to be left out. I will wait for comment before making edit as I did last time.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 17:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::: All those actions are not only having more to do with the "control of the islands," but are also specifically and continually contested by the Japanese government as illegal. When we discuss administration we really should be considering the accompanying zones since they are of course what the dispute is all about (see the article for details). For studies, visits, etc., permits are made to the Japanese government for Japanese studies and to our government for Korean studies. Both complain to each other everytime one happens since they both say they have administration rights. You also shouldn't ignore the fact that literally thousands of records are being kept and administered by each government elsewhere regarding this. Surely you aren't suggesting that both sides don't have "administrative offices" in charge of the region. While their duties might vary somewhat, it's not our job to determine the validity of either. For NPOV and peace of mind, I also support the compromise version removing the somewhat redundant term from both. "Control" covers everything we need to cover for the Korean side. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 17:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:I don't disagree with most of what you're claiming about disputes. However, most of administration involves government processes that stem from "control of the islands" whereas dispute claims are a separate matter. It is a referenced fact that the islands are currently administered by Korea although I'm open to further references that state otherwise. Do you have a problem with this reference?[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 18:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::He is picking on the literal term of "administration" because I don't think the issue of "administered" and "alternatively administered" ever was a problem. The media or other articles don't even use "alternatively administered". I agree that this should be deleted. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 18:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
See here, at [[Kuril Islands dispute]]. It is worded with "administered by Russia, but also claimed by Japan." Yet, Komdori is making no move to change this to "alternatively administered by Japan". I see this as POV pushing and simply Komdori's own POV against Korea. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 18:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
: Well the situation is probably simpler when there are towns and cities and perhaps Japan doesn't have administrative offices, I don't know. Maybe that one should change, too. In fact, now that you mention it, it probably should because my limited memory seems to recall they actually recognize each others' paperwork as valid. I can't recall for sure, though, and I admittedly am not an expert on Russo-Japanese policies. Editors who have more expertise should make the changes. I don't have all the millions of articles in my head. We're working on this one, not that one.
: Please, try to assume good faith. Going around and setting out unfounded statements that editors are "against Korea" is pointless, against policy, and certain not going to help progress in articles. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 18:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:The formula "administered by X, claimed by Y" shows up quite often on maps, even if Y may also have offices and paperwork that in principle perform administrative functions related to the territory. One example: [[:Image:Antarctica.jpg]] (Falklands Islands, South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands). Also common in lists like [http://www.didyouknow.cd/story/disputes.htm this one]. In such usage, I think it's clear that effective control of the actual island is meant. It seems there's a spectrum of meanings from ''occupied'' through ''owned'', with ''administered'' and ''controlled'' somewhere in the middle. My guess is that ''administered'' is chosen as a shorthand for maps and lists, where the desire is to use a relatively innocuous-sounding term without strong positive or negative connotations. I don't see a problem with using that formula in the article, either, but since we have more space available in the article, we can also describe the situation in a sentence or two and get the facts across. --[[User:Reuben|Reuben]] 19:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:: If they had villages, etc. I would be more inclined to support administered; is there anything wrong with the compromise version of controlled? There was a discussion quite a ways back, if I recall, between those who wanted administered (which kind of implies a bit too much) and occupied (which kind of implies too little, perhaps). Is there anything that is inherently lost by simply using "controlled"? --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 19:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Lets just use "administered" and "claimed" instead of "controlled" or "owned". I don't want another large fight about this. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 19:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
: Administered kind of implies (in this case) that they're the only one who has the offices, primarily because there are not really any people there to be administered, so the usage falls back to the paperwork. Controlled gets the point across and as Reuben noted is what is "really meant" by it. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 20:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::I don't see that. To me, ''administered'' clearly refers to effective administration actually on the island. It's quite parallel to many other cases, such as the [[South Sandwich Islands]] or [[Senkaku]]. Not many people would read "administered by X, claimed by Y" and think of paperwork. --[[User:Reuben|Reuben]] 20:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::: You might be right, but I (and others) seem to have interpretted it a different way. Do you lose anything by using the word "controlled" by itself since there is some objection? --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 20:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:If Korea side uses the term such as "administered", Japan side should also oppose it. Because present occupation by Korea are invalid for the Japanese protest on International Law. --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 20:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::Opp2, didn't you just agree above to let this go? Komdori, sorry but yes there is a village on Dokdo - it's 2-people village (a couple) with a small coast guard force. And where's your proof about any of the administering policies on either side and the interpretations of the word "administer" under "international" law? Wikipedia should describe, not prescribe. Since most of the media, maps, etc. use "administer" and "claim", so are we. Ok? We're not experts. Remember that. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 20:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC))
::: We can't count a propaganda couple subsidized by the government explicitly to sway cases such as this. Sorry. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 20:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Sorry too, that's your government as well. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 18:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC))
South Korea isn't communist and get your facts straight. The couple decided to live there, not because the government forced them to be there so South Korea can say "look theres civilians living on the islets its ours".
What do you mean by "village"? Certainly Japan must do some "paperwork" on Kuril islands if there are 30,000 people when it administers a piece of rock with 40 people on it. Its not "you might be right". Reuben ''is'' right in that most people dont go behind the scenes to check out whos doing what. South Korea administers the island but Japan also claims it. Thats about it. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 22:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
===Effective control(exercise of administration) should be peaceful on international law===
:PRINCIPLES OF PUBLIC INTERNATIONAL LAW by Ian Brownlie P148
::First, it would be better if the principle were expressed as one of acquiescence, since, if a pierce of territory were occupied by an aggressor, the 'prescribing' state would have a peaceful and uninterrupted possession, but there would be no acquiescence.
::The second problem is to decide what suffices to prevent possession from being peaceful and uninterrupted. In principle the answer is clear: any conduct indicating a lack of acquiescence. Thus protests will be sufficient. In the Chamizal arbitration United states claimed, as against Mexico (SYC.) Furthermore, possession must be peaceable to provide a basis for prescription, and, in the opinion of the Commissioners, diplomatic protests by Mexico prevented title arising. A failure to take action which might lead to violence could not be held to jeopardize Mexican rights.
:Textbook on International Law by Martin Dixon
::The exercise of state power over territory must be peaceful in the sense that it is not challenged by other states.
The expression to disregard International Law cannot be allowed. --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 20:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Opp, that seems to be quite off-topic. You're arguing about a set of rules for prescription of ownership, and the topic in this section is how / if to use the word "administration." --[[User:Reuben|Reuben]] 20:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::::And, what is the reason to have to use administration with the problem on International Law? What is the problem in occupation? Do TIME and BBC have problems? --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 21:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::Umm... what? I'm trying to understand your argument, but it's not very clear. Principles for prescription of ownership are neither here nor there, unless we're to start prescribing ownership - which we aren't. --[[User:Reuben|Reuben]] 21:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::::::Which impression of OCCUPATION and ADMINISTRATION is good? Which word feels that there is validity? "claimed by X and Y. occupied by X and Y express her protest" is the most appropriate and equal(NPOV) expression.--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 21:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
'''Mass media etc.'''
:*CIA The world fact book “South Korea and Japan claim Liancourt Rocks (Tok-do/Take-shima), '''occupied by South Korea''' since 1954”[https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/#d]
:*BBC “Japan's and South Korea's claims go back centuries, but '''islands occupied by S Korea''' since 1953”[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4925258.stm]
:*TIME “'''Occupied by South Korea''' in the 1950s, the islands are coveted largely for their fishing rights. The Japanese have called the occupation illegal.”[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41813-2005Mar16.html]
:*The Columbia Encyclopedia “the Liancourt Rocks are claimed by Japan and South Korea, and have been '''occupied by South Korea''' since 1954.” [http://www.bartleby.com/65/li/LiancrtRcks.html]
:*TVNZ “South Korea has built lodgings, lighthouses and a monitoring facility on the islets '''despite repeated protests by Japan'''.” [http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/425822/479818]
::South Korea and Japan are equal about the claim. It is an expression that is more advantageous for South Korea than these. Are you still dissatisfied?--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 20:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Opp your comments tend to mess up the margains. Please review http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_page if you're not familiar with using talk page margains.
:::It may be more advantageous for SK than Japan from a POV perspective but the Kyodo News reference clearly shows that administration of these islands falls to SK rather than Japan. I think we should defer to referenced facts in cases like this rather than debating Korean and Japanese POV arguments.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 22:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think anyone's claiming that Dokdo isn't claimed by Japan, controlled by SK, etc..
And Korea had all the right to defend it's own territory post WWII against Japanese encroachment on Dokdo. Japan's claims only go back to 1905 terra nullius claim which everyone knows was absolutely invalid due Korea's earlier claim and the fact that the claim was made under military coercion. SK doesn't even recognize Japan's claims of dispute.
As for the issue "administration", we have a Japanese new source that specifically states that the islands are administered by Korea! Provide references that oppose this or state that Japanese "alternatively adminsters these islands".[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 20:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The term occupied territories (see that article) in general refers to regions distinct from the recognized territory of a sovereign state but '''which it controls, especially with military forces'''. ''Dokdo is disputed, not occupied''. Get your facts right, Opp2. --[[User:DandanxD|DandanxD]] 14:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
== Did you know this move was done with only a 59.7% majority? ==
And a lot of votes were tossed out on the Dokdo side while some dubious ones were left on the Liancourt Rocks side. This is a shameful episode in Wikipedia history. I can't believe the admins allowed this. I guess this place is totally full of pro-Japan people.
<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/{{{IP|{{{User|211.212.69.195}}}}}}|{{{IP|{{{User|211.212.69.195}}}}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{IP|{{{User|211.212.69.195}}}}}}|talk]]) {{{Time|14:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)}}}</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <small>-- copied from [[Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 11]] by [[User:Nightshadow28|Nightshadow28]] 00:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)</small>
:::If Wikipedia was full of pro-Japan people, wouldn't we have moved it to Takashima? Your logic is a bit faulty here. [[User:Parsecboy|Parsecboy]] 16:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
::Hahaha, its only temporary and we can always move it back. And don't blame the admin who did this, he was simply uninformed of all the things that were going on in here. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 00:43, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
:No it's actually 55.22% majority - if you take out 3 invalid voters for Liancourt Rocks that the "NPOV admins & their buddies" "missed". 37/67. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 01:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC))
::Nice irony here. Reading through the archives I see your major argument was that in Google, Dokdo had a 10% count advantage. That's exactly 55%. I didn't read all the archives but it seems that was only one test. Since here you are saying 55% is not much then you seem to contradicting your sentiments in the archives where you seem to refer to this unreliable 10% as a massive amount. Besides it would seem that reading the admins comments it's because he was not convinced by your arguments rather than a straight count.
I thought that the majority does not matter anyways. [[User:Kingj123|Kingj123]] 04:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
: Exactly, the Liancourt Rocks people could have been the minority and it could have still moved. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 17:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
:: Exactly, although the Dokdo people have been the minority, the article could have stayed. --[[User:Kingj123|Kingj123]] 20:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
:::We can always change it back. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 19:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
::::One thing's clear, there was no consensus. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 20:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC))
Let's stop fiddling over this. Komdori and Endroit are obviously very smug about this and LactoseTI is praising the admin who moved this article. We can always move it back, stop talking about it and move on. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 21:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
: As for a consensus, a [[supermajority]] was essentially satisfied, well beyond what would ever really be needed. If you ignore the votes that are based solely on soverignty or the like, there was a tiny portion indeed. Good friend, you're right, just get 100 or so established editors together (35 more voting for Dokdo than voted for Dokdo in this poll, I mean) with you and you can reverse the percentages, though I still doubt it will move based on the issues discussed before. I agree it was perhaps a particularly bitter move, so it's probably best to get this all behind us. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 22:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Hah! A bitter move for ''us'' you mean. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 22:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
::::That's sure sign of pretty good face, Komdori. Are you implying that Good friend100 will plant 100 meat puppets with all edits above 100? I'd really love for a professor to come here & lecture us on what "solely on soverignty or the like" means. As far as I remember, Dokdo advocates provided much more warrants than that on why the article should remain as Dokdo. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 01:58, 4 June 2007 (UTC))
Why are 100 more votes required for Dokdo? Why are the requirements higher? Liancourt Rocks only had a thin margin for majority. I don't understand how this move could have happened when there was no clear consensus...--[[User:165.244.20.220|165.244.20.220]] 23:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
: It's not higher; to get the same percentage the other way round, you'd need over 100 people voting, approximately an additional 35 votes for Dokdo without any additional votes for Liancourt Rocks (in other words you'd need more than twice what voted for Dokdo in this previous poll). This is ''even if'' you count the votes with no reasons that were just signatures (which don't really count per the rules) or the ones that aren't in line with policies (soverignty for example isn't valid). Even not following the rules the consensus was kind of clear with a supermajority. A 14 editor/20% margin isn't really "slim," and it gets wider when you actually follow the rules. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 13:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
* There is no active claim on Japan right now. S Korea has always exercised firm soverignity on the rock, and I wonder why is there a big fuss to why Liancourt should be the main name----Since the Japanese claim has been dormant (I didn't say they drop it), Dokdo is increasingly used that Liancourt in the international arena....[[User:Mr Tan|Mr Tan]] 09:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
: We've beaten all this to death in the archives before and during the recent RM. Let the move stuff drop. After a suitable time we can always come back to it if need be, if it seems likely the consensus would have so dramatically changed. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 13:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::Fact 1- There was no clear consensus. A 55.22% majority is just not good enough in my book.
::Fact 2- The poll was unfairly conducted and probably warrants an investigation.
::Fact 3- A definite reason for a proposal to move is absent. There was no true justification for even a discussion of a move.--[[User:165.244.20.220|165.244.20.220]] 02:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
== Citation about remaining of SCAPIN677's effect ==
The source assumed that SCAPIN677 is still effective is requested. I found the article on Korea Times about this theme.[http://www.taiwanbasic.com/tw/dokdo.htm] This article is very interesting.
<blockquote>
Korea Times<br />
However, after the Napoleonic Wars, international law underwent a transformation, and “annexation” was no longer permitted.
</blockquote>
There are scholars who are classifying annexation into the cession. Does the author say that the cession is unlawful? I do not know the scholar of International Law who assumes that the cession and annexation are unlawful.
<blockquote>
Korea Times<br />
*In the modern era, conquest must be followed by military occupation. The Hague Regulations (1907) specify that “Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.”
*In other words, the United States has “acquired” these areas under the principle of conquest
</blockquote>
To begin with, the conquest indicates the military subjugation and occupation. Does the author think that there is a peaceful conquest? The [[Hague Conventions (1899 and 1907)]] is a law of war. It provides for the administrate of occupied territories of the war. Most(all) scholars of International Law say that the conquest became illegal after WW1.
::ex.Sharon Korman[http://www.oup.com/uk/catalogue/?ci=9780198280071]
:::Sharon Korman shows how the First World War - which led to the rise of self-determination and to calls for the prohibition of way - prompted the reconstruction of international law and the consequent abolition of the title by conquest.
If the conquest is lawful, [[International Military Tribunal for the Far East]] clearly becomes unlawful.
<blockquote>
Korea Times say<br />
As un-demarcated territory under the terms of the treaty, at the present time Dokdo is still subject to the jurisdiction of the United States Military Government (USMG).
</blockquote>
What does USMG mean? U.S. army, occupation forces in Iraq or DoD? Were there two governments in the United States? Was the United States a divided country such as China and Taiwan? Which country has approved the USMG? Common sense was disregarded, and a very interesting insistence. However, grounds are uncertain.
<br />
Should I adopt this article as a citation? A lot of annotations and rebuttals will be needed for normal International Law if it adopts--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 10:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
No[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 17:37, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
==Physical presence==
As an alternative to administration, occupation, and control (which are all commonly used to mean the same thing, but with different connotations), how about saying that South Korea maintains a physical presence on the island? I think that states the matter succinctly, without shades of approval or disapproval. --[[User:Reuben|Reuben]] 21:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:Physical presence is a vague term that doesn't bring clarity to matter at hand. Administered by SK is a referenced fact(Kyodo News article). Unless someone can offer new references regarding alternative administration, I don't understand why this term is problematic although I'm open to suggestions and explanations. [[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 22:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Thanks for trying to find a compromise Reuben. You're right in that all three of those terms have slightly different shades of meaning to different people, and there's no reason to be ambiguous. The opening is our chance to paint in unambiguous, broad strokes, being as clear as possible and describing details later on in the article. I'd support this compromise as perhaps going one better than any of the three other choices. I might add that this is a chance to pick a term that will let the opening stay even more stable. Neither side can argue about what it means, or that it's current fact. If a reader read just the opening, they couldn't get "steered wrong" by it, unlike like they could with actually all three of the other terms. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 22:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
How can somebody get confused by reading "administered by Korea but also claimed by Japan"?. I'm sure most readers who search for this article are aware of the dispute. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 23:00, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:I do agree that's clear. I'm just throwing out another possibility for discussion, which I think is also reasonable, and perhaps more informative. In other words, please take this section as an independent suggestion, apart from the merits of "administered." --[[User:Reuben|Reuben]] 23:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::I also agree that "administered by Korea but also claimed by Japan" is clear.
::However, I also think the term "occupied" is a less clear term. The ambiguity of the term is why Japanese POV editors are in support of it. For example, "occupied" is used often to describe perceived forced occupations such as US occupation of Iraq, Israel occupation of Gaza strip, etc.. Why leave open the possibilities for such mischaracterizations and miscomparisons when we have clear terms available? I see no reason to abandon accurate terms for more ambiguous ones especially when we have Japanese news references that support this.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 03:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
::: I thought this case was fairly clear cut. Korea controls and administers the island, Japan claims it. All of those terms (including "occupy") have clearly defined meanings in international law. Of these terms, "control" probably has the lowest threshold and is most easily satisfied. Administration means some enforcing of a country's laws. That's a higher threshold, but given Korea's exclusive possession of the islands it is almost certainly satisfied too. (For the avoidance of doubt, EEZ is not territory.)-- (unsigned by [[User:PalaceGuard008]])
:::: We can't assume editors to necessarily know the difference. Administer might imply internationally recognized jurisdiction, which frankly we don't have. I'm not entirely happy with occupied, either, because I think it might suggest something illicit, which isn't necessarily the case, either. Controlled or something to do with physical presense most clearly let a reader know is going on succinctly. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 17:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I think "administration" is a simple enough word that readers and editors won't confuse it with "internationally recognized jurisdiction". Come on Komdori.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 17:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
: I'm not sure, perhaps you didn't understand what the phrase meant? What it means is that some people with think the "administration" is "internationally recognized," when in fact it is not recognized outside of Korea. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 18:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
:: I comprehend your POV conern but it's unrealistic. It's a referenced fact from a Japanese news source and you're subjective fear that it might possibly misunderstood is hardly convincing enough. It sounds outright tenuous and far-reaching to me.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 18:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
::: And we all know that a single Japanese source is clearly authoritative in English word usage rather than English language encyclopedias. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 04:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
They use "administered" for disputed territories. "Occupied" is correct since South Korea does occupy it, but it is probably considered too strong. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 18:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
All the terms on their own suffers from the same concerns I think. That's why I was going with "controlled and administered".[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 19:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
:Komdori, I waited almost 12 hours for further comments and responses before going ahead with my edits. Please reciprocate the courtesy and give people a chance to further comment and respond to you before reverting back.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 19:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
::Komdori, '''I will not tolerate''' your arrogant and uncompromising stance of reverting back other people's edits that reflect their respective opinions and good faith & your pushing with "cheers". I am quite open to different alternatives such as "physical presence" but when so many editors support "administer... claim" form, I have strong suspicions on why you would still choose the alternative when both are nearly equally acceptable. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 01:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC))
:<span class="plainlinks">[http://www.google.com/search?safe=off&q={{urlencode:"occupied by South Korea"}} {{{2|"occupied by South Korea"}}}]{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}|{{ns:0}}|<span class="messagebox" style="padding: 0; font-size: xx-small; color: #000000;">''[[Template:Google]] should not be used in articles as Google links are not considered appropriate for an encyclopedia.''</span>}}</span> seems a view shared by many (including [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41813-2005Mar16.html Washington Post] and [[#Effective control(exercise of administration) should be peaceful on international law|examples provided by Opp2]]). On the other hand, this particular phrase <span class="plainlinks">[http://www.google.com/search?safe=off&q={{urlencode:"controlled and administered by South Korea"}} {{{2|"controlled and administered by South Korea"}}}]{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}|{{ns:0}}|<span class="messagebox" style="padding: 0; font-size: xx-small; color: #000000;">''[[Template:Google]] should not be used in articles as Google links are not considered appropriate for an encyclopedia.''</span>}}</span> seems unique to Wikipedia. --[[User:Kusunose|Kusunose]] 02:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
::If you make a simple Google search [http://www.google.com/search?q=Dokdo+Takeshima+administered+by+Korea+claimed+by+Japan&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=8OQ&start=10&sa=N], you see a lot of administered by S. Korea & claimed by Japan. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 02:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC))
:::Then why not just simply state "administered by South Korea"? We don't have to use many words when one is suffice. --[[User:Kusunose|Kusunose]] 02:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
:::: I might add that encyclopedias are likely to spend more time to get their wording "right" and unambiguous than news sources. Are any of them using administered? I don't understand why people are insisting to use a word that itself is ambiguous. I guess they like the added implications that some people might get incorrectly? I hope not... —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 04:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
My reasoning was because "administration" alone doesn't imply control. Since both "administration" and "control" are supported by citations both were included to make it clear as possible. Occupied is also supported by citations. It's just a matter of agreeing upon which word(s) most clearly convey the status of these islands.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 04:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
: "Administration" is not as clear as other terms. Both sides administer to a certain degree, and neither is recognized as the administrative authority. Why not use a single clear term and explain in the main article. Unfortunately, not everything can be squeezed into the intro. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 04:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
::While your personal opinion is understood and is worth consideration, the issue of administration has been verified and with Japanese news sources. It's reference number 2. And the two words in question reads fine with the flow of the introduction and are both supported by references as well as address your concerns of accuracy and clarity.
::And you are degrading assumption of good faith '''overturning good faith edits that were the result of 12 hours of waiting. 12 hours may not be sufficient for you but it's 12 hours better than your immediate revert. Return the courtesy.'''[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 04:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
::: There's a ton of sourced material in this article. Not all of it can be in the intro. We can be clear and not misleading and explain it all when we get to the main body. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 04:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
::No one's trying to fit a "ton" of material here. These two words are documented from Japanese and neutral sources and the wording fits smoothly with the introduction. Thanks.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 04:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
::: While I understand your viewpoint, it's clear that there are several editors who don't agree. It comes off cluttered and unusual. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 04:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Claiming lack of consensus while giving specious arguments is really poor. Regardless of who does or doesn't agree, you're dissent loses meaning if you can't offer reason and evidence for your position. [[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 05:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
: Rather than copy/paste, I'll leave it to you to reread this section. The nuts and bolts of it is that by including it in the intro can imply something else. In the interests of being clear, I'm sure we can find and agree on a version without these problems. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 05:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
::Just state your position Lactose and let people comment. Good grief.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 05:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
::: It should be clear from my above comment. Leave me a message on my talkpage if it is unclear to you so as to avoid filling up this already crowded page. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 05:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I never encountered an "invisible argument" for the sake of a non-consensus claim before. That's kind of amusing.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 05:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
:::I don't understand why you have to be so picky about this so that we have to discuss this extensively, Lactose. We already have a good word to use. Whats even more funny is that this wasn't a problem before yet you are bringing this out suddenly. What is your point? Since the article was moved to "Liancourt Rocks", the Korean position got weaker so we put in "alternatively administered by Japan"?
:::"alternatively administered" doesn't make sense to me at all and certainly not commonly used in the media. The Japanese source says that "administered by Korea". Isn't this enough?
:::All we need is something like "administered by Korea and claimed by Japan" or "controlled by Korea and claimed by Japan", etc. Again, I don't understand why you have to start disputing the word "administered". [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 18:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
:::: I have problems with it, too. It can imply things that aren't true and presumably this is the reason encyclopedias don't use it. Do you have a problem with Reuben's proposal? Since we have one word that some editors object to, why not use on that no one objects to? As for it not being a problem before, it actually was--there was a discussion and it was removed before. Someone unilaterally reintroduced the concept. I suggest the reason people like the word administered better is simply becuase it ''does'' have extra implications. The situation is complicated, and our the validity of our claim/administration is not recognized internationally, just like Japan's is not recognized outside of theirs. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 20:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Extra implications as in the presence? [[Senkaku Islands]] is similiary written. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 22:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
: Maybe the situation is different there, or perhaps that should also be changed. I'm not an expert on that topic. If you are, go there to discuss it. I'm talking about this article, and want something unambiguous and clear. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 22:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
So what "extra implications" does it have? It just sounds like you and Lactose are being difficult and claiming positions that doesn't exist for the sake of claiming lack of consensus. I've provided a Japanese news source that uses the word "administrated" to describe Korean control of Dokdo. If you believe otherwise you and Lactose are going to have to do better than just CLAIM "extra implication" or things "maybe" being different, etc..
Lastly, I waited 12 hours for feedback and comment before going ahead with the edit. You and Lactose are reverting back immediately and didn't start participating again only to justify your reverts. A little reciprocation of courtesy seems appropriate instead of immediate reverting. Cut the specious arguments and just be honest if you don't really have a reason for being against this.[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 00:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
[[User:Melonbarmonster|melonbarmonster]] 00:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
:We actually had a long discussion with Opp2 on this, and the whole point at the end of the discussion was... Wikipedia is not written with the language of the "international law". Therefore, even if under the international law both countries "administer" the island, the word "administer" is not used in international law in the same sense as that used in daily English. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 00:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC))
:: I agree we shouldn't base it on international legal language, instead we need to find something that general readers are least likely to misunderstand. I don't know if Reuben's compromise version is the best possible (I can't think of something better), and I agree it's better than "administer." —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 01:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with melonbarmonster. This article should be written like [[Senkaku Islands]] using "administered". It doesn't make sense how you simply try to change the wording here and not at Senkaku simply because you "aren't an expert on that topic". What "topic"? You don't need a "expert knowledge" to make Senkaku NPOV. Senkaku uses "administered" yet you do not even try to change "administered" there. I see this as POV.
Stop telling me to assume good faith. I have tried to assume good faith enough times. When CPOV editors call Koreans "ethnocentrists" and call wikipedia a "place for circlejerking for the Koreans", you don't even care. Yet when Dokdo or Goguryeo advocates do a bit wrong, you start exploding (ex. Wikimachine's tests which are retarded but your tests a fine). [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 12:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
: Try assuming it one more time. While you were here complaining about the latest "injustice," other editors were actually discussing this very topic over at Senkaku Islands, and the article is now adjusted. If you care about that article, then go there to discuss, not here. Since your objections were based on the idea of consistency, they should now be solved. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 13:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Sure, I'll assume one more time. Isn't that what Wikipedia should be? [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 20:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
:::: I'm okay with "controls," but per the discussion on Senkaku, it would make more sense to use the physical presense idea here, and controls there (since they don't have a physical presense there). --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 20:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
== Dokdo and the Senkaku Islands ==
In the English Wikipedia, the Pinnacle Islands (Senkaku Islands in Japanese and Diaoyutai Islands in Chinese), which are effectively controlled by the Japanese but also claimed by the Chinese, are titled the "Senkaku Islands."
In the same encyclopedia, the Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo in Korean and Takeshima in Japanese), which are effectively controlled by the Koreans but also claimed by the Japanese, are titled the "Liancourt Rocks."
This makes me wonder if consistency is valued in English Wikipedia. I think this article should be titled "Dokdo" for the sake of fairness.<small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:211.111.214.149|211.111.214.149]] ([[User talk:211.111.214.149|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/211.111.214.149|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
: Please see the [[Talk:Senkaku_Islands]] page where this very issue is being discussed and the similarities and differences are being explored. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 12:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
:I'm confused, is Les Rochers de Liancourt administered by Korea or Japan? Isn't it administered by Korea, but is claimed by Japan? (And, if Dokdo/Takeshima is decided to be named as Liancourt Rocks in the English Wikipedia, don't you think you should also change it in Wikipedias of other languages?). [[User:Amphitere|Amphitere]] 00:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
:: See above discussion(s) for the first points. As for other Wikipedia projects, it really depends on the language in question. For other Wikipedia projects, they should follow the naming policy in their own language. That is, in Korean Wikipedia, it should stay "Dokdo" and in Japanese Wikipedia, it should stay "Takeshima." --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 01:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
::: Actually, in Japanese Wikipedia, it's "Takeshima (Shimane Prefecture)". "Takeshima" is a disambiguation page. --[[User:Kusunose|Kusunose]] 02:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
::::What about the French, Spanish, Polish, Italian, etc. User pages? [[User:Amphitere|Amphitere]] 17:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
The Chinese page has Dokdo(獨島) with the French (despite Liancourt being a French name), Lithuanian and Finnish pages. German, Spanish and Indonesian displays Dokdo as "Liancourt Rocks" and no foreign language Wikipedias have the article named in the Japanese-form (except Japan). As for your question, Dokdo (Liancourt Rocks) is administered by Korea but claimed by Japan since 1901. --[[User:DandanxD|DandanxD]] 14:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
== Map Gallery ==
As Parsecboy noted, these pictures are a little less than clear as to what is going on in them. Perhaps we could discuss how they should be modified or at least what captions they should have. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 18:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
<gallery>
Image:Hachidou2.jpg|Paldo Chongdo
Image:Tongkuk chido.jpg|Donguk jido
Image:Heajwa chondo.jpg|Haejwa Jeondo
Image:Tongguk.jpg|Dongguk Jeondo
Image:18thcenturydokdo.jpg|An 18th century map of Korea drawn by the Chosun court. 2 islands in the approxamite locations of Ulleungdo and Liancourt Rocks can be seen to the east of Korea.
</gallery>
::*Sigh* What more are you going to dispute?
::All we need is a caption that says "A Korean map (date) that includes Liancourt Rocks" or something like that. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 19:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
And don't take off the template, discuss first. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 19:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
:::I added a caption for each map. I'm sure its NPOV but the grammer could be changed. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 19:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
In the Japanese map, Korean [[Busan]] is included as well. Why is that?
[[User:Kingj123|Kingj123]] 19:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)'
:::I don't see Busan. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 20:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
: To parapharse your response, "*sigh*, how much more are you going to be incivil"? Parsecboy's ideas are understandable, and no one objected to moving them here before. If we want to use captions, then it has to be a bit more specific--what is it is actually labeled on the map, and where it is on that map. Don't do your own interpretation. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 20:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Ok then, what do you think we should put for the captions? [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 20:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
:::: As I said, if the maps are relevant, "what is it is actually labeled on the map, and where it is on that map." --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 20:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
It is necessary to describe both insistences of Japan(Usando is Jukdo or fabled Ulleungdo) and Korea(Usando is Liancourt Rocks) for NPOV. Both insistences are so much the better if comparable on the map like this [http://homepage2.nifty.com/oppekepe/takeshima/eng/korea/AF_17C/KOR_AF17C.html].--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 09:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
===[[:Image:18thcenturydokdo.jpg]]===
:''An 18th century map of Korea drawn by the Chosun court. 2 islands in the approxamite locations of Ulleungdo and Liancourt Rocks can be seen to the east of Korea.''
This is not a 18th map by the Chosun court but a 19th century map printed in Japan (it is too accurate for 18th ones). You can also find a slightly enlarged different print of the same map.[http://dokdo.naezip.net/Dokdo/D4/JapMap01.jpg] According to the Catalogs of historical and literal material related to Takeshima/Dokdo issue (竹島／独島関係 史・資料目録, p. 15, #1556) by Yuji Fukuhara (The University of Shimane)[http://www.u-shimane.ac.jp/near/tksmtkdsry20060301.pdf], it is one of 『朝鮮與地全図』 (Chōsen Yochi Zenzu) drawn by 関口備正? and published in 1875 (明治8年) by 山城屋佐兵衛, 大蔵孫兵衛, and 朝倉屋久兵衛 (you can recognize these names at the bottom left of the map). Takeshima and Matsushima in the map are actually Argonaut Island and [[Ulleungdo]], respectively. You can see KPOV explanation of the maps in the era (in Korean) [http://dokdo.naezip.net/Dokdo/DokdoMapJapan01.htm here], while Japan never recognized the islets at 37°14′N, 131°52′E (Liancourt Rocks, リアンコヲルトロックス) that were incorporated in 1905 after reconfirmation of 1878 and 1880 naval surveys as Korean territory. Anti-KPOV explanation can be found in some of Gerry-Bevers' ''Lies, Half-truths, & Dokdo Video, Part 1-10, Maps Part 1-12'' site. [[User:Jjok|Jjok]] 02:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
::I overlapped this map with an actual position. [http://homepage2.nifty.com/oppekepe/takeshima/eng/japan/map.html]--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 15:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
== Can we just get along? ==
You guys should check the 3RR incident board today and see all the reports both sides are throwing at each other.
Somebody threatened me to file a report that I am a sockpuppet. Melonbarmonster is repeatedly asking LactoseTI to stop stalking but LactoseTI doesn't seem to care.
Can we all get along and stop doing this to each other? I'm getting sick of this. Why can't we just edit articles like we used to? [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 20:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
:''but LactoseTI doesn't seem to care''. Grow up. Don't post a message asking people to get along and then use that message to criticize others.
== One more time: What was the reason for the move? ==
I don't understand the logic... Why was a poll held? What was the compelling evidence or theory that prompted it? The last time it looks like the issue was discussed calmly and there was consensus among regular contributors. AND most importantly, there was a real reason for reexamining the title. Can someone explain to me why there was a move this time? Or why there was even a poll? It seems like a hasty and unjustified move. Nobody seems to be explaining the reason why a poll was held and why the page was re-titled...--[[User:222.233.205.82|222.233.205.82]] 04:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
:I'm not heavily involved, but here's my take: This page was originally at [[Liancourt Rocks]], was moved without discussion to Dokdo<s>, and managed to stay there largely due to vote-rigging and bad-faith behavior in previous polls</s>. Now it is back at Liancourt Rocks, which is not a perfect title but does at least accord with [[WP:NPOV]]. -- [[User:Visviva|Visviva]] 05:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
::'''Correction''': this page was originally Dokdo. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 18:18, 10 June 2007 (UTC))
::I have not seen evidence of such vote-rigging or bad-faith behavior in the previous poll. There was significant vandalism and single-purpose account creation after the poll was advertised on a Japanese discussion site, but that was primarily after the poll was closed, and only served to disrupt the talk page rather than the poll as such. The poll that moved the page to Dokdo showed a clear consensus among established users who registered an opinion at that time. --[[User:Reuben|Reuben]] 08:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Hm, taking a second look at it, I guess you're right. I was thinking of [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Appleby|this RfCU]], but none of those socks seem to have participated in the poll here. The archive makes ''very'' strange reading, though. Something odd was definitely afoot; I don't know if it was just A's remarkable skill at buffaloing the community (a skill he does not seem to have passed on to whomever his current puppets are), or what. -- [[User:Visviva|Visviva]] 09:38, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
::::If anything, the recent outcome has the appearance of being influenced by a spurious finding of sock-puppetry, along with private lobbying of the closing admin. --[[User:Reuben|Reuben]] 16:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter. The move was sudden and wasn't fair on both sides. There were socks on both sides of the poll. What really got the attention of the admin was when Komdori introduced a Korean article that discussed about wikipedia and Dokdo and the poll. I doubt that Koreans would come here and screw things up. In fact, I think that a sockpuppet was made to have the same name of the author who wrote the article so the Korean side just looks bad.
If true, thats dirty playing in my viewpoint.
We can always move it back so I'm not too worried. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 12:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
: Let it go. You're just fanning flames of bad faith with nebulous comments about non-existing socks, etc. As for that article, perhaps you'd like to tell us all how the person with the author's name came here and voted ''before'' the article was published? If you think the move was sudden, you haven't seen the mammoth discussion in archive 10 and 11 spanning a significant period before it happened. Not only did it result in a consensus by nearly any definition, but all the admins, etc. who voted came down on the side of policy as well. Try to be straight with the facts. The admin who performed the moved had noticed the chosun ilbo article and dismissed it, it didn't even play a big part. He reviewed the move ''twice'' after that, including once ''after'' he had moved it, even after Wikimachine, et al had had their say. The conclusion time and time again was to both stick with the policy and consensus. --Cheers, [[User:Komdori|Komdori]] 13:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
:::It doesn't matter, once the admin makes a decision he usually doesn't turn it back. Husond at first closed the poll but then when LactoseTI rushed to him, he changed it back. We had our say ''after'' Husond made his decision. After that, he said that a change was unlikely. Why do you think there are so many Dokdo side editors asking what the reason was for? If its so clear to you simply because you got what you wish, its very ambigious to the other editors as to why this got moved.
:::Bad faith? Take a look at this [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Lions3639]]. So, Komdori, you and all your "jollies", as you once described the evil Lions3639 and his 100 Korean buddies, want good faith from other editors.
:::Endroit thinks that melonbarmonster and Cydevil are sockpuppets of this Lions3639 guy? Give me a break.
:::Parsecboy must have had fun accusing people of sockpuppetry, and when Davidpdx demanded a reason for that, Paresecboy simply says "I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FUCKING CHECKUSER CASE". You or Parsecboy can't even say sorry enough to satisfy him. Who wouldn't feel bad if they get accused of sockpuppetry when they're not?
:::Good faith? You want good faith after your POV is clear? Its obvious when you want an "english" name for this article but at [[Senkaku Islands]], you think Senkaku is the best name. According to your strictly NPOV philosophy, "Pinnacle" should be used because its "english". But there, you simply say that you doubt that "Pinnacle" is widely used.
:::It doesn't make sense how this article moved when "Liancourt" isn't even commonly used, but Senkaku stays at Senkaku because "Pinnacle is not commonly used. Then again, your NPOV reasoning doesn't fit with the analogy between these two articles.
:::Liancourt rocks isn't even widely used in the media. You didn't clearly give any reason that "Liancourt" was commonly used except for encyclopedias. If "Liancourt" was the most commonly used name, then why doesn't the media use it? Now, I'm not going into this anymore, but the move was certainly not fair.
:::Consider your own POV and if you expect good faith all the time, think again. Considering how LactoseTI tried hard to get me blocked again, a day ago, instead of having good faith to me, you lose credibility. My reverts were NPOV (well the later ones) and I edited the way Assault11 would be happy. But no, you know how some of these editors are stubborn. Writing that "Gaogouli is ours, bitch" just blows off Assault11's cover that he is obviously POV.
:::LactoseTI even accused me of "gamesmanship" reverting so that I was off the 3RR violation by a few minutes. No, I'm not an idiot. I don't play at that kind of low level. I didn't wait until the 24 hours was over till I made my 4th revert. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 14:19, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
:::: Good friend100, please assume good faith and be civil. The issues you mention have been discussed at great length in the archives, and all your questions/objections have thoroughly been answered (what you mentioned about encyclopedias only being used, for example, is patently false--snuggle up with a good cup of cocoa and the archives for a looong read and you'll get your questions answered). Whining that Wikipedia "isn't fair" is not going to help us make progress on this article, it just festers bad feelings (that are largely ill founded). I didn't try hard to get you blocked, I just added a bit more detail to the descriptions of your clear disregard for Wikipedia and its policies, and how you seem to feel the rules don't apply to you. I don't know how my comment on your rule-breaking has anything to do with credibility, of me or others. Saying "someone else started it" isn't the way it works here.
:::: I don't care what you think or how you feel, or really even how many rules you trample as you continue railing on how the world isn't fair--insofar as its off topic for article progress. Just try not to hamper the progress that other editors are indeed making, and if you can contain yourself please keep the disruptions/soapboxing to a minimum. Thanks. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 15:07, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::I read the archives but Good friend100, I couldn't find any uses in the media of Takeshima or Dokdo. The BBC links that are in the archives only report what the names are in Japan and Korea and as I'm sure you know these aren't counted by Wikipedia rules. In fact, I struggled to find even one use of Dokdo or Takeshima in any respected source. Could you point to some? Reading your comment about Senkaku and Pinnacle I think you are confused by the term "English" for names. A name doesn't become English because it's a word in an English dictionary. Seoul is not an English word after all. The issue is ''usage''. I keep seeing this idea that because Pinnacle is a word it is a correct name. English names often come from other languages. It could be Senkaku from the Japanese and Liancourt from the French. Choose what's common in respected sources and is not simply reporting foreign usage. That's what counts.
You think I'm whining that Wikipedia isn't fair? I think Husond made a good decision, considering what he was exposed to when he first reviewed the poll.
I have had enough of assuming good faith from some of the editors here and CPOV editors at [[Goguryeo]]. I am not saying that Wikipedia isn't fair and I'm not whining that somebody else started it. I'm pointing out the fact that you are POV and your actions are clear enough to assume that. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 15:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
: I'm not sure what being called "POV" means (you are POV = you are point of view)? I guess you are trying to say that I have a point of view? Of course, that's true--everyone has a point of view, even you. Luckily we don't have to wonder if Husond was swayed by anything of the sort, since he looked at the issue again in depth, after both sides had described their take on it. Please see the archives. My last statement on this is that if you want to be an editor here you frankly have to assume good faith ad infinitum, and you need to stay on topic. I know it's tough sometimes, but keep at it. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 15:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
::What Good friend100 has to say is just more than couple of ill-faithed comments. Don't go around telling other people to be in good faith when you LactoseTI haven't kept at it either. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 18:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC))
::Probably what Good friend100 wants to say is "biased". See [[WP:POV#Usage note]]. --[[User:Kusunose|Kusunose]] 16:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Well, I certainly don't see disputing the map gallery section on this article as good faith. You have to dispute everything, now that this article is Liancourt Rocks.
::::Husond looked in depth AFTER he moved the article. He told me that a move back to Dokdo was unlikely after this.
::::And don't comment as if you have done nothing wrong. I don't think you have been accepting edits as good faith. Almost anything that is edited on this article or Senkaku you revert, unless its something you like. Even when some of my edits on Chinese tributaries were an attempt at a compromise, you simply file me to block me. I call that bad faith, including accusing me of gamesmanship. That is why melonbarmonster is demanding an apology from you. I don't think you are in any position to tell me to be in good faith when you can't have good faith either. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 18:31, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Since so many people are confused, I'll explain my view of what happened. Komdori and Macgruder wanted the article to go back to Liancourt Rocks, but since the poll prior to the last already contained Liancourt Rocks as a candidate, and it failed, they needed to find another reason to make a move request. And in process of blindly groping for new arguments, they brought in the "Takeshima/Dokdo" combo - this they used to open a hole to spill in all the other alternatives & begin another poll. Once I agreed that the "Takeshima/Dokdo" combo was something new & therefore agreed for a new move proposal, Komdori, who didn't firmly advocate his choices but merely complained POV, went for Liancourt Rocks, while Macgruder went for "Takeshima/Dokdo" combo. Ok. Something that really gets me mad is that these "NPOV" rule-abiding Wikipedians played on with so much indirect bigotry, personal attacks, and manipulation of data, etc., that every time they tell others to maintain good faith or control themselves, etc., I see them as complete hypocrites & their acts as signs of complete arrogance. (So, anybody who tells others to remain in good faith or remain calm automatically go onto my red list. The sad thing is that this atmosphere became an inherent part of the Wikipedia culture.) For example, when my data clearly shows that Dokdo dominates over the other 2 main options completely in these xxx searches, they gave really ambiguous, stupid, and very arguable reasons why it might be inaccurate, and they give their own searches that are even more flawed than mine. And when I point these flaws, they give really stupid reasons on why they don't matter. And because they talk really ambiguously and pushes their way into a lot of stuff, I am forced to talk into even the smallest things. And then LactoseTI comes in & tells me to not talk about those trivial matters. During all these talks, the discussion fills with my defenses and their offenses. Because they call even the most accurate searches false & they write that all over the place, admins & outside readers think so too. In the end, like some Wiki critics say, those who talk the most get their wish true in Wikiepdia. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 18:38, 10 June 2007 (UTC))
:Let me add, Philip Baird Shearer's archiving of the first half of the discussion has done a lot good give Komdori & Macgruder a fresh start. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 20:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC))
:Sorry, but I'm a bit confused. I've just spend age reading through the archives. Did'nt your original test/vote give Dokdo a 5000% percent advantage - a test that you strongly said was accurate. Then Kondori did a new test and gave a 10% to Takeshima. I think you redid that test giving a 10% advantage to Dokdo. This seems similar result. You say Kondori and Mcgruder have such bad results but you did the same basic test and got a similar result. The only bad result here seems to be the test you did. The test you just copied from Kondori is the one you say is accurate. [[User:221.133.86.163|221.133.86.163]] 11:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
:::I agree with Wikimachine. You cannot maintain good faith, while telling others to have good faith. I'm simply disgusted with your most recent attempt to block me and I think I'm going to join melonbarmonster and Davidpdx's party. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 18:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Also, all throughout this discussion, nobody was willing or able to explain the rationale behind the move. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 20:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC))
::::: There's not much to be gained arguing with someone who has degraded to the point of name calling others' (well founded objections I might add) "stupid." As for writing the most, I do believe Wikimachine contributed the most content to the talk page during the discussions, but that's a non-issue. Anyway, to make sure no one gets the wrong impression, if anyone is interested in a full and complete description and discussion of why the article was moved per consensus and policy, check out archives 10 and 11. You'll fine all the arguments and the reasoning behind the final moves there. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 21:43, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
You've said that at least 3 times already. [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 22:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
:All I've seen is "After new evidence of meat/sockpuppeting was submitted for my consideration, as well as valid arguments regarding POV concerns, I've decided to overturn my closure of this proposal and move the article to Liancourt Rocks." and that doesn't explain much. I know Archive 10 & 11 by heart, LactoseTI, and I don't find all the arguments. And yes, their arguments were stupid, not they. Remember dual usage? ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 00:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC))
:Yes, I replied mostly because most of the discussion I was the only one replying. I had to cover Komdori, Macgruder, Parsecboy, Philip Baird Shearer, Opp2, etc. All of them & I didn't lose the debate - (however admins decided to call it a night). ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 00:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC))
:: Perhaps you missed [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Liancourt_Rocks&diff=prev&oldid=134980704 this] description of why, in the end, you "lost" the debate. —'''[[User:LactoseTI|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#003399;">LactoseTI</span>]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LactoseTI|<span style="color:#009933; font-size:smaller;">T</span>]]</sup> 00:55, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
:::No. I lost it because I argued it as if I was in a debate round. Husond does not think as debaters do. My Handy Dandy Guide is a better analysis. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 01:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC))
::::And Husond was obviously not convinced by your Handy Dandy Guide. The logic of ''My Handy Dandy Guide was part of the losing debate but you should read my Handy Dandy Guide'' is pretty non-sensical to me. Given the obvious fallacy of this kind of reasoning, no wonder you lost the debate. Reading this page here, all I see you saying is 'my reasoning was better therefore I should have won'. This is a self-defining argument. You need to face it. Husond, an experienced admin, was not convinced by your argument, and given the so-called argument you are displaying here, which seems to consist of calling people names and saying how good your argument was, I'm totally unsurprised. I'm right therefore I'm right is not really a valid debating tactic. [[User:221.133.86.163|221.133.86.163]] 13:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::Log onto your real account & face it up like a man. In other words, The Handy Dandy Guide was better than admin's analysis, but it doesn't matter because what admin thinks is the thing that counts. And no, it's not a self-defining argument. ([[User:Wikimachine|Wikimachine]] 16:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC))
::::::Well, I've just read through the archive, and no-one else agreed. So your argument is 'My Handy Dandy Guide' was better because I say it was better. I'm new to this discussion and the thing that I spot is that you go round calling people liars and bigots. When your show yourself to be worthy of being Wikipedian then I'll log in. I don't really have an interest in getting into name calling arguments with teenagers.
I'm happy with what Husond said. "Article to stay at Liancourt for ''now''". =) [[User:Good friend100|Good friend100]] 11:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
== Did Ahn Yong-bok go to Edo and receive the Kanpaku's note? ==
Present article is being written as a fact that Ahn Yong-bok went to Edo and received Kanpaku's(shogunate's) note. However, it cannot be confirmed that he met the shogunate and even he went to Edo(Tokyo) where shogunate was living in the record of Japan.[http://www.pref.shimane.lg.jp/soumu/takesima/chukanhoukoku/index.data/taniguti-report.pdf] Therefore, there are few Japanese scholars who thinks Kanpaku's note was fact. Even Prof. Naito who is insisting Takeshima is South Korea territory is denying this note as Ahn's lie.
<blockquote>
もちろん、安龍福が述べているように、鳥取から江戸に送られ、幕府が審問した上で、鳥取藩主が鬱陵島は朝鮮領であるとする書経を安龍福に与えたなどというのは、全て安龍福の作り話である(Of course, it is all fictions by Ahn that he was sent to Edo from Tottri and after shogunate's interrogation the load of Tottori clan gave the treaty which described that Ullengdo is Chosun territory.)[http://www.han.org/a/half-moon/shiryou/ronbun/naitou2005B.pdf] pp.9
</blockquote>
Therefore, present article is KPOV. It is necessary to retouch. --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 06:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
:In addition, a present article has made a mistake in the event in 1693 and 1696. The story of oki and houki is the second stowing away in 1696. --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 10:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
:I noticed that present article was a translation of Shin Young-Ha's theory. And, this Shin Young-Ha's insistence is has been refuted by Prof. Naito.(竹島（鬱陵島）をめぐる日朝関係史p61-119) To begin with, Shin Young-Ha is not presenting source of his insistence.--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 12:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
'''issues of present article about 1693 visit'''<br />
<present article>
<blockquote>
In the spring of 1693 in the 19th year of King Sukjong about 40 Korean fisherman from Tongnae and Ulsan clashed with the Otani and Murakami fishermen at Ulleung-do. The Japanese proposed that the matter be settled peacefully and asked the Koreans to send their delegates. Ahn Yong-bok and Pak O-dun went to the Japanese side as Korean delegates, but were captured and taken to the lord of Okinoshima. The lord of Okinoshima soon found the case outside his official competency and sent Ahn to his superior, the magistrate of Hokishu (modern-day Shimane Prefecture). Ahn was then taken to Edo, where the Kanpaku (Imperial regent) of the Tokugawa Shogunate made a note that confirmed Ulleungdo as Korean territory. Ahn was in possession of the note until he was seized en route to Korea by the lord of Nagasaki, where it was confiscated and he was held on the grounds of trespassing onto Japanese territory.
</blockquote>
<issues>
*Grounds of this insistence of Shin Young-Ha are uncertain. A lot of mistakes are found. (Prof. Naito p66)
*There was no lord in Okinoshima because Oki was the direct control territory of the shogunate.(Prof. Naito p67)
*Ahn was taken for giving a strict reprimand.(Prof. Naito p68)
*Ahn was looked for out by two men at Otani's house, and going out was not permitted.(Prof. Naito p71)
*The Shognate's note is Ahn's lie because Ahn didn't go to Edo.(Prof. Naito p70)
*The meaning of the magistrate of Hokishu is uncerten. Shin Young-Ha said the load of Houki.(Prof. Naito p70)
*Ahn didn't meet the load of Houki clan because the Houki state was a part of Tottori clan and the load of Tottori clan lived in Edo at that time.(Prof. Naito p70)
*The Kanpaku at that time is unrelated to the Shogunate. The Kanpaku is not the Shogunate but emperor's subordinate's official position.
*Houkisyu is not present Shimane Prefecture but Tottori Prefecture.
I drew the Ahn's movement route in Japan in the map.[http://homepage2.nifty.com/oppekepe/takeshima/eng/korea/Ahn_incident/img/ahn_map.jpg] This map is based on this thesis.[http://www.pref.shimane.lg.jp/soumu/takesima/chukanhoukoku/index.data/taniguti-report.pdf]--[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 16:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
'''Amendment bill about 1693 visit'''<br />
:Ahn was detained in Otani's house at Yonago for two months, and investigated from the Tottori clan. The shogunate ordered to send them to the Nagasaki magistrate place, and to send them to Tsushima clan in addition. Ahn was held hostage by the governor of Tsushima Island (So Yoshitsugu). When Ahn was repatriated to Korea, the Tokugawa Shogunate demanded the prohibition of Korean from going to Ulleung-do against Korea. This led to diplomatic friction between Korea and Japan.
:After Ahn was repatriated to Korea, he testified that "the Kanpaku (Imperial regent) of the Tokugawa Shogunate made a note that confirmed Ulleungdo as Korean territory and I was in possession of the note until I was seized en route to Korea by the lord of Nagasaki, where it was confiscated and I was held on the grounds of trespassing onto Japanese territory."
:The Korean scholar is alleging as a fact this testimony. The Japanese scholar is insisting that this testimony is his lie, because he didn't go to EDO where the Shogunate lived and the Shogunate demanded Korea prohibited Korean from going to Ulleung-do.
reference:竹島（鬱陵島）をめぐる日朝関係史p61-119 by prof. Naito Seityu.
Please correct my poor English. --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 02:46, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
You shouldn't change parts of the article (as you did) without a proper discussion. --[[User:DandanxD|DandanxD]] 14:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
:?? I hear the opinion here. --[[User:Opp2|Opp2]] 14:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
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