Talk:Angels (Neon Genesis Evangelion): Difference between revisions

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== Book of Enoch and a word or two on Lilith ==

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==GA Reassessment==

Watching Evangelion reminded me of the Book of Enoch, as well as the story of Lilith, the first wife of Adam before Eve. Head over to the the Wikipedia section of the Book of Enoch and Lilith to have a read. The first mentions the Watchers, the angels who were supposed to watch over humans. The leaders' names and translated names are listed, such as Shamsiel, "Sun of God." They generally fit the translated names listed in the NGE angels list, but it should be noted where some of these names come from. In the Bible, very rarely are angels given names. And also about the Book of Giants, the Nephilim. I found it interesting that there were giants who preyed upon man and beasts and then fed upon eachother's flesh and blood. It reminded me of when ever Unit 01 would go ape and eat an angel. It might not mean anything, but it's a good read.

{{Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Angels in Neon Genesis Evangelion/1}}

== Requested move 24 November 2024 ==

And about Lilith. She's appearantly been around for a long time, but it's said in The Alphabet of Ben-Sira, a medieval writing, that she left Adam and the garden because she refused to be below him during sex, and therefore, did not eat from the Tree of Knowledge. She appearantly swore to destroy all of Eve's children and gave birth to demons. Also, she knew the true name of God, and to know the true name of God is to have power over Him, so it says.

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NGE feels like it's a mix of everything. Maybe it all lies with the fact that they're not angels but just messengers; 18 messages, with humans being the conclusion. Anyway, it's all speculation.

:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> [[User:Raladic|Raladic]] ([[User talk:Raladic|talk]]) 17:51, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

That's really all I'd like to mention. I didn't mean to rant. I just wanted to point out the Book of Enoch and shed some light on Lilith and possibly start a little conversation about the two. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:ElijahD|ElijahD]] ([[User talk:ElijahD|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ElijahD|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small><!-- [Template:Unsigned] -->

----

[[:Angels in Neon Genesis Evangelion]] → {{no redirect|Angels (Neon Genesis Evangelion)}} – While a small distinction, it is clear that not all Evangelion angels are actually named after real-life angels. Adam and Lilith, for example, are not actually angels as Christians know them, with Lilith going as far as to be a demon. Given this fact, calling them actual "angels" would be incomplete, and it is better to refer to them as "a fictional race of beings called angels", hence the change away from a natural disambiguation. [[User:Zxcvbnm|ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ]] ([[User talk:Zxcvbnm|ᴛ]]) 00:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

<br />I´ve heard from a close friend of mine (and, by the way, a big fan of the Evangelion series) that after some research about NGE subjects, he discoverd that the first three Eva´s designs were actually based on "demons": EVA 00, the "one eyed" demon; EVA 01, the "screaming" demon and EVA 02, the "four eyed" demon...anyone has some information about this?

Iaquil [[User:196.40.68.218|196.40.68.218]] 17:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

:@[[User:Zxcvbnm|Zxcvbnm]]: I would argue that we change the name of the article to [[Angel (Neon Genesis Evangelion)]] if we were to follow a similar pattern of other things named on the [[English Wikipedia]]. Most things on the English Wikipedia use the singular form of a noun. Also, the Angels described in Neon Genesis Evangelion take most of their names from [[pseudepigrapha|extracanonical sources]], such as the [[Book of Enoch]] and [[Jewish folklore]]. I would agree that the Angels in Evangelion are not like the Angels people in Abrahamic religions, such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, think of, and that people who practice those religions would know, or reasonably believe, that they are monsters instead of the supernatural beings described in such religions. [[User:Z. Patterson|Z. Patterson]] ([[User talk:Z. Patterson|talk]]) 03:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

:The Barons of Hell are an Internet Rumor, nothing more. [http://www.evacommentary.org/op/op_2.html#cut025 See here.] [[User:Reichu|Reichu]] 19:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

::{{ping|Z. Patterson}} [[WP:PLURAL]] says that the title should be plural when talking about "Articles on groups or classes of specific things" including "Articles on groups of distinct entities that are nevertheless often considered together (preceded almost invariably by the word "the")". That would describe "the Angels" as seen in Evangelion. A similar example is [[Machines (Nier: Automata)]], a page which I created. [[User:Zxcvbnm|ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ]] ([[User talk:Zxcvbnm|ᴛ]]) 12:57, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

:::@[[User:Zxcvbnm|Zxcvbnm]]: I understand and agree we should move it to [[Angels (Neon Genesis Evangelion)]]. The [[:ja:使徒 (新世紀エヴァンゲリオン)|Japanese Wikipedia page for the Angels in Evangelion]] follows the convention we would like. I believe we should follow suit. [[User:Z. Patterson|Z. Patterson]] ([[User talk:Z. Patterson|talk]]) 13:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

'''[[Deus Ex Machina]].''' "Angels" are nothing but plot devices high on steroids, really. People have been trying to explain what they mean, what they are and everything else since Evangelion became popular, when it's obvious that they're just a rather simple invention to fill a bad storytelling. According to this article they're ''beings'' and no other explanation is given. Dogs or cats or horses are not canine, feline or equine mammals, let's say they're just ''beings'', wow, great information to put on an online encyclopedia.<br />

::::I also agree. [[User:TeenAngels1234|TeenAngels1234]] ([[User talk:TeenAngels1234|talk]]) 19:34, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

I can imagine the guys in Gainax back then trying to figure out how to make more money out of their business, it must have been something like:<br />

<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->

--Hey, we need some evil alien villain thingies on this cartoon.<br />

</div><div style="clear:both;" class=></div>

--Uh yeah, why don't we plagiarize some Angels' names or whatever? Teens will dig it, they'll believe we're like giving a secret message or something.

In and after the end of Evangelion, the only thing left is a low budget animated series with no meaning at all and no other purpose but exploit of merchandising. That, and thousands of naive fans trying to figure out the gag line of a bad joke.

It's really sad to see it takes a cartoon for someone to become interested in our background and heritage as western judeo-christian societies and read stuff like the Book of Enoch or whatever, when it was already there, long before Evangelion...<br />[[User:Loborojo|Loborojo]]

All right that makes senses, except for one thing. Name one franchise that doesn’t have a major enemy. Or are you saying that since they didn’t have every minuscule fact plotted out before hand that that Angels were a plot device. If that’s your definition of “Deus Ex Machina” not much is going you escape that[[User:The Twilight Goddess|The Twilight Goddess]] 20:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

=="First Ancestral Race"/NGE 2 videogame canonicity?==

I'm confused; who said that the information from the NGE 2 videogame is canonical? What is the source? Wait, so the "Black Egg" is Lilith's egg, which is what Nerv's base was built around (according to Ikari in episode 20 they built the base around it after finding it). So...'''where do Angels come from?''' They're all "born from Adam", but how? What is the "White Egg", how can it be the moon, etc? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:130.64.137.195|130.64.137.195]] ([[User talk:130.64.137.195|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/130.64.137.195|contribs]]){{#if:12:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)|&#32;12:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

:I have never played the NGE2 game, but it is published by Gainax '''and''' is said to be a view from different angles from most of the characters on the same event in the Newtype magazine. This should be enough prove of it being canonical. If not, you have to find proof for why the original series is canonical, which will be a really stupid thing to do. [[User:Mythsearcher|MythSearcher]]^{[[User talk:Mythsearcher|talk]]} 13:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

::The CI from NGE2 is considered canon to the plotline of the series and gives us a large ammount of vital information including the origins of the Angels and the nature of the Lance of Longinus, although it's purposedly ambiguous in certain points. A full translation can be found [http://www.evacommentary.org/misc-files/nge2ci_temp.txt here]. Note that the game itself is just a retelling of the series' plot and thus doesn't add anything to NGE's plot and cannot be considered canonical, it is just the Confidential Information from the game that is canon as it was obtained by extensively interviewing the series' creators.

:::That is '''extremely''' informative, however I'm confused about section 6-D: "Nerv Headquarters was constructed inside the Black Moon containing Lilith. The Angels are all heading for Nerv H.Q. so that they can make contact with Lilith, the white giant in Terminal Dogma. They were aiming for her from the start, not Adam."...er, as is my understanding, the Angels were heading for Adam, not Lilith. To the point that Kawaru/Tabris refused when he realized it was Lilith and not Adam, plus Gaghiel attacked the UN convoy because Adam was in it, etc. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/130.64.137.195|130.64.137.195]] ([[User talk:130.64.137.195|talk]]) 03:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

::::Oddly enough, it later mentions how some Angels are headed for Lilith (explaining the attacks by Angels before Adam was even moved to Tokyo-3), some for Adam, and some have nothing in mind. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Nightmare X|Nightmare X]] ([[User talk:Nightmare X|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nightmare X|contribs]]) 02:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

== Rei an Angel? ==

Per the last big edit: Has Gainax or Anno specifically stated whether or not Rei should be considered an Angel? [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 13:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

:No idea. But out of the paragraph, it appeared that the whole article based itself in the fact that Rei was an angel. Feel free to remove that line if it does not change the meaning of the article. -- [[User:ReyBrujo|ReyBrujo]] 04:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

::Rei is more of a derivative of Lilith. She should be mentioned here, not under a separate heading but in her relation to Lilith. I think the current form of this page is good. {{unsigned|69.112.26.170}}

:::For the sake of simplicity: Rei is a clone, though she doesn't actualy fall into that deffenition. From the inferences contained in the series, Rei was "born" from the combination of the DNA of Lilith and Shinji Ikari's mother, Yui. As the previous comment stated, she should be considerd a "derivative" of Lilith. While she maintains a (for lack of a better term) unique personality/soul (actualy it may be more safe to say that she is a human embodiment of Lilith with all awareness of that connection suppressed). She is still bound by her DNA to Lilith so that she eventualy becomes the fuse by which the Third Impact begins. I agree that Rei should be mentioned in connection with Lilith. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/216.153.183.218|216.153.183.218]] ([[User talk:216.153.183.218|talk]]) 17:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

::::Actually (and this is my opinion) I think Rei is “Tabris” ‘cas Kaworu said there “The same”. The fact that the Angels are "another possibility, a race of humans that abandoned human form" supports this. Rei and Kaworu are the same possibility. P.S plz don’t flame me for having an original idea.[[User:The Twilight Goddess|The Twilight Goddess]] 00:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::I have no idea what you're trying to say here. [[User:Hellbus|Hellbus]] 03:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::I think I see what he/she is getting at, but it's my understanding that Kaworu is specifically identified as Tabris in all canon materials. Although Rei has some Angelic powers, she is not an Angel, per the discussion above, which is pretty much spot-on IMO. [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 03:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

== "Literal" meanings ==

Several times in this document, passages like the following are present: "The thirteenth Angel, Bardiel, named after Barachiel," ... "Bardiel literally means "Humiliated Son of God,"". Can someone enlarge on these descriptions or provide some cites?

I would appreciate this, as the current wording seems to be contradictory. Either Bardiel is named after Barachiel, whose name is translated from Hebrew as "the Blessings of God" by Wikipedia ( in which case the claim of a literal translation is incorrect ), or the name is entirely independent, not connected to Barachiel except by virtue of also being a Biblical [[Theophory in the Bible|theophoric name]] ( in which case the claim that the angel is named after Barachiel is spurious ). - [[User:219.194.176.65|219.194.176.65]] 13:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

:I think it's that the name Bardiel is based off of the name Barachiel (which means "the Blessings of God) but it isn't ''exactly'' Barachiel (since it's ''Bardiel'', which means "humiliated son of god")... However, I can completely see your point. Many of these Angels are named after actual angels, such as Sandalphon. However, wouldn't Bardiel then be named after the ''angel'' Bardiel? Where did "Barachiel" come from, anyway? I think it's exactly spuriousness that we're looking at here. Can anyone enlighten me as well? -[[User:TaggedJC|JC]] 13:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

::Has Gainax ever released anything stating why those specific names were chosen? [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 17:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

::Hi, this is the initial questioner ( at work though, sorry about the different I.P. ) - it would be remiss of me not to mention that there is an angel Bardiel, who appears in [[Louis Ginzberg|Ginzberg's]] "The Legends of the Jews", Volume 1, Book 3, subsection "The Translation of Enoch". Several copies of this document are available online. In this volume, Bardiel is attributed as the Angel of Hail. I think the obvious conclusion is that Bardiel is simply named after the Angel Bardiel. - [[User:60.36.46.80|60.36.46.80]] 07:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

== Manga Vs Anime ==

There needs to be some further clarification of the differences of the angels between the manga and anime. Excluding humans, the anime uses 17, the manga only uses 12. [[User:Seraphimneeded|Seraphimneeded]] 13:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

:It's been a long time since I've read the manga, but from what I remember the Angels do not differ in their forms, attacks, or eventual fates in the manga. The only significant difference is that some Angels don't appear in the manga, and Gaghiel's role is pretty much an afterthought. The biggest difference is in Kaworu's personality and roles, but that's addressed both in this article and in his own article. [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 14:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

::Actually, Bardiel has a some-what new attack in extending it's arm underground before having it reemerge and grasp Eva 01's throat. Also, Israfel does not reform into the main form, but remains seperate as Kou and Otsu, suggesting it cannot reform in the manga. [[User:Zeruel21|Zeruel21]] [[Special:Contibutions/Zeruel21|Contributions]] 11:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

==Arael==

In his article it says “Although in the anime Asuka suffered no apparent aftereffects of the beam, in the manga, Asuka is reduced to a vegetative state due to mental shock”, but after that her sync rate drops to 0, that seems like a bit of an over sight doesn’t it? {{unsigned|The Twilight Goddess}}

:While the comment is referring to the fact that she is up and around immediately after the attack in the anime whereas she's flat on her back in the manga, I can see where it could be confusing. I'll edit the statement accordingly. Don't forget to sign your posts. [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 05:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the note on Unit 00's strength and the Lance: While the statement is true in and of itself, the Lance moves on its own to Earth in EoE, so it's entirely possible that the Lance was helping itself to fly. I doubt there's anything official to support that idea, though. [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 17:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

:The Confidential Information says that the Lance is a lifeform with its own volition, so I have no problem believing it can fly. It would sort of need to to accomplish its mission of suppressing Seeds of life. --[[User talk:Gwern|Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern|(contribs)]] 01:00 [[23 May]] [[2007]] (GMT)

== Shamshel Speculation ==

I would like to remove the following passage from the section on Shamshel:

<blockquote>''Some fans'' of the show argue that this Angel's shape and design are [[phallus|phallic]] in origin, reflecting some [[Sigmund Freud|Freudian]] references said to be found in the series. (Shamshel's character designer, Yoshitoh Asari, actually depicts the Angel as female in an erotic manga short called "Angel Kiss".) ''It may'' also represent a [[Caduceus]], with its shaft-like body and two sepentine whips.</blockquote>

This passage is simply speculation and has no place on Wikipedia. The fact that it contains [[Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words|weasel words]] (Which I have indicated) also retracts from its credibility. Also there is no citation for the claim regarding Yoshitoh Asari. I will remove this paragraph unless someone can supply a reason not to.

On the topic I would like someone to provide a citation for the final line in the Shamshel section (''Shamshel literally means "Lonely Conqueror of God."''). –[[User:Rowan Moore|cheese-cube]] 01:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

:The user 24.21.154.177 has put in a ton of stuff in this article today. Some of it is useful (the note that Ramiel appears to be hollow) but most is speculative and POV. I reverted him earlier, but he's back with a vengeance. I'm too tired to take care of it tonight - is anyone going to police his edits or will they be left? [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 03:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

::I apologize. I was overzealous and got carried away. (I'm user 24.21.154.177). [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 23:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

==Shamshel's core==

Okay, I need to clarify this: there is a running theory that Shamshel's recovered "core" was used in Eva Unit 04. HOWEVER, I don't think they said an "S2 Organ" and a "Core" are exactly the same thing (indeed, Eva's have "cores" as well, as we saw in the Zeruel fight). Or are the S2 Engines based on research on Shamshel's corpse? I'm literally working from poorly translated YouTube copies here, please help.--[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 07:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

:Without actually breaking out the DVD with that episode: It's my understanding that the Angels' S² Engines are a part of their cores. Since Shamshel's core was heavily damaged by the Prog Knife, I would think that NERV would've dissected the core remnants and reverse-engineered Unit 04's S² Engine from the remains. Unit 01 (and, presumably, the other Evas) already had a core at the start of the series, so it stands to reason that Unit 04 probably had its own core as well, without the need to try to rebuild Shamshel's core. (speculation, of course) [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 14:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

== Source of all Angel names ==

I got the literal translation of Shamshel (and verified the meanings of all the other Angels' names) from [[Theophory in the Bible]], but I wasn't sure if you can cite Wikipedia as a source in a Wikipedia article. [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 23:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind. I found the proper source of the Angels' name-translations in [[List of Biblical names]]: Hitchcock's New and Complete Analysis of the Holy Bible by Roswell D. Hitchcock, New York: A. J. Johnson, 1874, c1869. (Now how do you cite sources?) [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 03:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

:With the addition of this reference, there's still some contradictory information in the entries that needs to be pared out. [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 04:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

== Angels in past or present tense? ==

All the Angel entries mix their past and present tenses. When I rewrote/cleaned up the Ramiel and Gaghiel sections (which, by the way, I plan to do to all of them) I wasn't sure whether to use straight present-tense ("The fifth Angel, Ramiel, ''is''") or straight past-tense ("The fifth Angel, Ramiel, ''was''"). Properly, I ''think'' it should all be past-tense, but it feels awkward introducing an Angel in the very first sentence as "was". (I feel "was" has a sense of uncertainty about it, as opposed to the secure anchor of "is".) [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 06:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

:I would say use present tense except when referring to events connected to the Angels that occur in the past in the story. [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 12:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

==Minor Stuff==

Interesting things that might be worthy of inclusion here; The Eva RPG has two more Angels (With names apparently taken from the Koran). One is [[Iblis]], who looks like a big metal turtle, and the other one is something like "Barjaquiel", who I've never seen, but who appears to be an amoeba. In addition, there's the Diemay Angel, the winner of a fan drawing contest who got made official and drawn by Gainax artists. And finally, there's CODE: B.E., who I know nothing about except that she looks like a translucent Rei and was released in the new line of "female" Angels. Are these worthy to be added to the page?

Incidentally, another tidbit is that, according to Sachiel's designer, Sachiel knows Kung Fu. I can't remember where I heard this, only that I did NOT make this up. [[User:Belgium EO|Belgium EO]] 22:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

:The explicit purpose of this article is to explain the Angels as they are ''in the anime or manga itself''; such "extra Angels" do not merit inclusion here. If they are to be mentioned at all, it should be in their own article ("Additional Angels", "Other Angels", or some such name), perhaps with a link to it at the bottom of ''this'' Angel article. [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 15:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

By “The RPG” do you mean NGE 2?[[User:The Twilight Goddess|The Twilight Goddess]] 02:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

:Not necessarily. For example, the first game, ''Neon Genesis Evangelion: 1st Impression'', introduced a new Angel. So far as I know NGE 2 didn't introduce any new Angels, though. --[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 03:31 [[23 April]] [[2007]] (GMT)

Well then what is he talking about?[[User:The Twilight Goddess|The Twilight Goddess]] 01:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

:Who knows? There are a number of games that could be desribed as an Eva RPG. --[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 04:03 [[24 April]] [[2007]] (GMT)

==Pictures of the Angels==

I don't think the current picture of Shamshel is particularly helpful. It lends very little towards understanding what the Angel actually looked like (which is the whole point of having any picture at all). Can someone find a better shot of this Angel? Perhaps even two pictures: one depicting Shamshel in its horizontal "flight mode" and the other depicting it in vertical "combat mode."

I also think the Matarael article could use a second, close-up shot showing its eyes. The current picture adequately shows the Angel's shape, but not its eyes. And maybe there should even be a third shot, of Matarael producing its acid. [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 15:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The Tabris article also needs a better picture; preferably something like a screenshot of him descending towards Terminal Dogma. (Properly, it should be a shot showing him ''after'' revealing that he is an Angel—anytime before that, he's still Kaworu Nagisa.)

The current picture of him looks like it belongs on a postage stamp. [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 16:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

:Agreed all the way around, although one pic of Matarael releasing its solvent should sufficiently show its multiple eyes. [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 17:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

== Thoughts? ==

--The Article says that most of the characters are unaware of the Angels names, but at one point Shinji says “our enemies are beings called Angels, they have the names of the Angels too”, Which would indicate the knows all there names(and read the Old Testament).[[User:71.221.69.171|71.221.69.171]] 03:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

:Wouldn't it make more sense that the names are just made up by Nerv to code name different Angels instead of being their real names? I mean their real names were never revealed in the series or any other places? Anyway, that sentence seems to be incorrect and should be modified. [[User:Mythsearcher|MythSearcher]]^{[[User talk:Mythsearcher|talk]]} 16:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

::A problem we don't know is if the Angels have original names or just human codenames; the only ones named on-air in dialogue are Adam and Lilith. Problem is that Kaworu/Tabris knows these names, but then again, seeing as he is from SEELE, he could have just heard the codenames from them. YES, it would seem they are code-names applied by NERV as Shinji does say they have the names of Angels. --[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 17:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

:::My understanding is that the Angels were named in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is why they have names at all.[[User:The Twilight Goddess|The Twilight Goddess]] 02:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

:::The names of the angels are all listed in the special features of the DVD, along with a profile to go with it. [[User:Therealsquee|Therealsquee]] 02:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Therealsquee|Therealsquee]] ([[User talk:Therealsquee|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Therealsquee|contribs]]) 02:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

:::No I mean in Eva the Angels names were written on the Dead Sea Scrolls in SEELE’s possession.[[User:The Twilight Goddess|The Twilight Goddess]] 03:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

::::Well yeah SEELE knows that, but does everyone else? I think based on Shinjis comment that they do. --[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 04:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

==Design notes on Angels, and a question about Sachiel==

I've been wondering about inclusion of notes and comments from the designers of the Angels; is there much in the way of source-able material on this? Also, about Sachiel's weaponry: Has it been confirmed that the energy nails are actually a bone in its arms, or is that just a best guess on its function? After re-reading the manga, it seems more logical that the nails just slide through its arms and out the holes in its "hands" like Wolverine's claws extending and retracting. If there's notes confirming that, they need to be added in; if not, I'm going to rewrite that particular bit. [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 14:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

:There's that one silly doujinshi, but I'm not aware of any other sources from the designers. --[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 16:24 [[23 April]] [[2007]] (GMT)

::In the model produced by Bandai, that ''bone'' is intact and coloured white. It is not a pure energy weapon like a light-sabre or beam sabre(plasma blade), it is more like a heated hole punch. [[User:Mythsearcher|MythSearcher]]^{[[User talk:Mythsearcher|talk]]} 16:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

:::I'm not sure if any of that is right; it seemed just like an energy beam thing I will rewatch. Citable notes? well there's the DVD commentary.--[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 16:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

::::A "heated hole punch" is a pretty good description, although I doubt it would be appropriate for the article. ;-) MythSearcher, do you know of a link to that model kit? [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 18:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

==What the heck is Kaworu/Tabris?==

How can Kaworu be BOTH the 17th Angel, as well as the "Vessel containing the soul of Adam". First off, I'm not sure why they needed to be messing around with souls and such in the first place; I do get that he is SEELE's equivalent of Rei. And that Rei is the vessel of Lilith's soul. Why did they need their souls separated in the first place?

Regardless.....is Kaworu his own independent Angel or what? I mean...he's got BOTH Adam's soul as well as his own soul rattling around inside himself? Some have pointed out that Armisael, Angel #16, actually feels "alone" when it talks to Rei II, and that this may be because it is the last "true" Angel. But they do call Kaworu "the 17th and last Angel", not just some science experiment gone awry. And I guess Rei doesn't count as an actual "Angel" (close to the Evas in that regard). Ok, I know that there is more than one VERSION of Third Impact, each of which could go down differently and involve different things (Lilith is essential but Eva 01 by itself could do in a pinch, you need the original Lance of Longinus (not just a copy), etc. etc.) and that if the Angels initiate it, the ANGELS will move on in the evolutionary jump of Third Impact and the humans will die off; so if SEELE and Gendo wanted to take control of 3-I, they needed to get rid of the Angels first. But Kaworu wanted to go back to Adam, as all Angels do, but when he realized it was Lilith, he didn't. Was this because merging with Lilith would have ended ALL life? What was the difference for him between merging with Adam and not Lilith? --[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 21:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

:Those are all good questions. I don't know. So far as I know, there is only one soul in Kaworu, which was Adam's. But his body is descended from Adam, which makes the body an Angel in its own right. The reason Armisael feels alone is because it is contacting a Seed of Life, Lilith. I'm not sure whether it is just that you can't feel a Seed of Life as alien from yourself, or whether it was just so alien Armisael didn't recognize an Other, though. That'd be a good question to ask on the EvaMonkey forums.

:As for 3I: you've almost got it right. The First Ancestral Race only intended the Angels to colonize Earth, and Lilith arriving as well was an accident; humanity usurped the world. So for the Angels to reach 3I would be for Adam to accomplish his/her's old mission of seeding the Earth; Adam and Lilith-based ecosystems are inconsistent (remember in 2I, everything born of Lilith around and in Antarctica died and would have been replaced). It's not really a matter of evolving, except if anyone unites the Fruits of Life and Knowledge (then they "become as gods").

:Not all angels seek out Adam; the Confidential Information IIRC says some had no real purpose and some actually sought out Lilith. There's a possibly major plot hole here: SEELE tells Kaworu where Adam is - in Gendo's hand - before he ever reveals himself. So it is a very perplexing question why he seems surprised to see Lilith in Terminal Dogma and not Adam. If you really want to, there's about 18 pages of discussion [http://www.evamonkey.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=2095&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=50fb6739104dbc2ae4d4b09fbb6111e7 here]. --[[User talk:Gwern|Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern|(contribs)]] 23:59 [[23 April]] [[2007]] (GMT)

::Here’s what I think, First I’m pretty sure that Kaworu does have his own soul else he’d

be an Extension of Adam instead of a Vessel. As for Armisael feeling alone, that’s probably ‘cas it can’t truly communicate with another being, even Tabris (it was attempting to become one with Rei so they Could communicate). Also I got the impression that it would be different for an Angel to merge with Adam then Lilith, as the former was supposed to happen, but Adam and Lilith were never meant to exist together.[[User:The Twilight Goddess|The Twilight Goddess]] 01:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

:::No, Kaworu can't have his own soul: Rei doesn't have her own soul either (Yui's soul is in Eva-01, of course), and Kaworu is like Rei. Further, the non-human Halls of Guf are empty - there are no souls for the Rei clones, and D&R dialogue suggests that the emptying took place during 2I, so there might not've even been a soul for Kaworu. But fortunately Adam's was becoming available at just that time.

:::As for merging with Adam and Lilith: the most popular understanding is that 3I and becoming as a god is a consequence of uniting the Fruits of Life and Knowledge (so Eva-01, descended from Adam, can unite with Lilith and become as god, or Kaworu, or another Angel, etc.); this is the Gendo/NERV 3I. So Kaworu merging with Adam is just returning to the source of life, and is like the SEELE 3I, except Angel + Adam and not Lilim/Humans + Lilith. --[[User talk:Gwern|Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern|(contribs)]] 04:16 [[24 April]] [[2007]] (GMT)

:::Look if Kaworu didn’t have his own soul he'd be bond completely to the will of Adam, but he refused that will and instead killed himself, thus preventing 3I and the beginning of the dominance of the Angels. Also what do you mean Rei doesn’t have a soul, if that were the case when Armisael tried to merge with her it would have automatically stated 3I, it’s the spare Reis that don’t have souls that’s why they’re like that[[User:The Twilight Goddess|The Twilight Goddess]] 14:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

::::Who said he didn't follow Adam's will? But again, Rei has Lilith's soul, and she's not somehow bound to Lilith's will because she forgot who she was - Kaworu has the advantage of not being kept in the dark, but that doesn't mean Kaworu remembers being Adam or has to logically follow what Adam would do (do we even know that a full Adam wouldn't act like Kaworu did? I don't think so). --[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 23:18 [[24 April]] [[2007]] (GMT)

::::O.K now you’re just making assumptions. First, give me one good reasons why Adam, who has had 14 of his 15 “Children” killed by humanity and two attempts to control him by same, have ANY hesitation about destroying all of humanity, Kaworu was clearly acting against the Angle’s best interest. Also if Kaworu and Rei really were there respected patrons, shouldn’t Kaworu have called Rei “Lilith” instead of “a vessel for Lilith’s soul”?[[User:The Twilight Goddess|The Twilight Goddess]] 02:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

== EvaMonkey? ==

What exactly is EvaMonkey? I mean what's its history? Is it "The Onering.net of Evangelion" or what? --[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 01:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

:Something like that. There are about 3 or 4 really good sites for doing Evangelion research, particularly in the ___domain of translations of stuff that just has never appeared over here or in English: the Eva-ML (mailing list) saw a lot of early stuff, and is a good archive of discussions; EvaMonkey's site (linked to above) is good for the forums - the discussions there are the best and the most informed I've found online, equal to Eva-ML at its peak but more voluminous and up to date - and is even mentioned very favorably by Carl Horn at the end of Viz's release of Volume 10 of the manga; there's Bochan_Bird's site (EvaOtaku.com? I can't really remember), which I rely on for RCB translation and song data, as well as miscellaneous stuff about Anno and other people; and there's another site which is important because its owner, Reichu, edits here sometimes and Reichu has also done the best translation of the Confidential Information (which is obviously really important) - that one is linked to in the NGE2 article.

:Besides that, I don't know of many good online resources. --[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 03:56 [[24 April]] [[2007]] (GMT)

::Okay Gwern just to try and think it out, this is my ROUGH plan for Eva: I'll finish the episode guide (lot of work there) probably Friday after this one. Then...I think I'm going to try to start either an Eva Taskforce or a flat out "WikiProject Evangelion" and an Eva Portal; not so much for what we have now, but because we KNOW Rebuild is coming and will double the material, and the live action movies, if made, will be the next Star Wars/Matrix/Lord of the Rings. Then we've basically got to go around between all articles and bring them up to FA status (not that they need to be FA, just that they're good enough that they conceivably could; i.e. we don't have to change anything on them, just run maintenance if they get vandalized, etc. I've been brushing up all of the Eva articles whenever I could get a chance these past few months and I think in the past year we've made some progress. ---->The problem is...in this day and age, if we're dedicated enough, should we try to start our own new "EvangelionWiki" (like HeroesWiki and StarWarsWiki's<!-- Wookieepedia, you mean? -->), or piggyback it onto Wikipedia? Which would be viewed by more people? I mean when you consider the fact that this is basically what I'm doing for the next 4-5 years if the live action movies start up because of Rebuild, it is quite a difficult decision. ***You see I was a LOTR fan originally (that's why I went on "the Internet" and the problem was that it took me a while to realize that TheOneRing.net had become the "unofficial official central fansite". EvaOtaku isn't updated anymore but it's still got a glossary. Reichu actually works at EvaMonkey (I wonder why they call it that). I hung around on EvaTrivialBeing for a while but that's really just PART of EvaMonkey (I wish they'd have linked it better). At any rate if EvaMonkey opened up their own wiki guide I'd be fine to move there. -------->sorry it's just the analogy I use is that we're basically where Lord of the Rings was in 1999/early 2000, that production hasn't started yet but a handful of us fans who had read the books KNEW it would be the "next Star Wars" and planned accordingly; similarly, with Eva I want to hit the ground running. '''Hmmmm.....okay, how's about this:''' we focus on just writing up all of the Eva articles and starting and actual WikiProject Eva ("We won't let them rewrite our scenario!") ...I'll get to that next Friday I think. So we set up a proper "Eva portal" so when the first Rebuild teaser trailer airs we've got something in place. --->Then, as an analogy; Wikipedia has a good "Heroes" guide but the HeroesWiki is even better; but main Wikipedia Heroes articles have links on the bottom to the HeroesWiki articles. The idea is that Wikipedia is where the publicity is, and that's how people find the main dedicated wiki. Hmmm....okay, right now I'm going to focus on us trying to set up a Wikipedia Eva Project and Portal, and then asking EvaMonkey if they'd set up a wiki as a subsection of their website because I'd rather work with them than compete with them. I've really got to start reading up on the EvaMonkey forums more. --[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 05:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

:::Reichu was a forum administrator, I thought. Piggybacking on WP is the best idea until AfDs start raining down like nuclear warheads; part of the reason Wookieepedia is successful (aside from, you know, dealing with a subject with vast amounts of material new and old and a large dedicated fan base dwarfing Eva's) was that the forkers waited until there was something of a SW community on WP and an already fairly comprehensive set of articles. --[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 23:19 [[24 April]] [[2007]] (GMT)

::Reichu's site is Evacommentary.com. Really I've "scoured the tubes of the Internets" and at the moment these are the only 2 big sites. Apparently Evacommentary is hosted on Evamonkey or something so they are collaborating to a point. I dunno. Look we'll figure out how to launch a dedicated Eva wiki later but at the moment we should focus on getting a portal set up. (I don't know how much of my life I want to devote to that, but when Rebuild starts, If we don't start an independent Eva wiki someone else might and it won't be as good). Meanwhile...EvaCommentary has no forums. So yeah, it looks like "EvaMonkey" is THE "equivalent of TheOneRing.net in 2000". I come there sporadically but I should make it a point to go more. --[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 05:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

:::There's already an independent Eva wiki, which isn't doing so hot. Wikis need either communities or large information bases, and I don't think we have the former (and if we only have the latter, there's no point in forking from Wikipedia). --[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 23:23 [[24 April]] [[2007]] (GMT)

Okay guys, we will just focus on getting Evengelion up to standards on wikipedia itself (with like a portal and junk) and then branch out if the time seems right. What does "AfD" mean? Yes, "Piggybacking on WP" is what we will to for the forseeable future. --[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 04:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

:"AfD" is "Articles for deletion". [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 12:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

== Ramiel ==

In the section for Ramiel, the shield used against him (it?) is from a SSTO spacecraft; however, the article for Rei I says the shield is from a Space Shuttle (I hypothesize [[Space Shuttle Endeavour|''Endeavour'']] or [[Space Shuttle Discovery|''Discovery'']], since they are last to retire; however, none of the then-4 Shuttles ([[Space Shuttle Atlantis|''Atlantis'']], [[Space Shuttle Columbia|''Columbia'']], ''Discovery'', ''Endeavour'') would have survived [[Neon Genesis Evangelion glossary#Second Impact|Second Impact]] (I include ''Columbia'' because 2I was in 2000 and [[Space Shuttle Columbia disaster|''Columbia'' disintegrated in 2003]]). [[User:Missingno000]] Saturday, 29 April 2007 : 1808 UTC

:Some random person inserted that, I didn't; feel free to remove it. --[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 18:26, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

::The heat shield depicted is very different in shape from that of Space Shuttle. It reminds me of concept drawings of the [[X-30]]. The subtitles on my copy of the DVD describe it as having been built for a single-stage trans-orbital rocket. [[User:Hellbus|Hellbus]] 18:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

:::From the models produced by Bandai, on the instruction manuals, they all said S.S.T.O. [http://www.1999.co.jp/image/10014552k/50/1 HG EVA Unit Zero] [http://www.1999.co.jp/image/10014551k/50/1 HG EVA Unit Zero Kai][http://www.1999.co.jp/image/10014550k/50/1 HG EVA Unit 2]. I will have my hands on the official scripts by tomorrow, I will see if it says Space Shuttle there or not. Note to Missingno000, It might just be a new model not any of those you have listed. But I am pretty sure that all my sources should point to SSTO instead of Space Shuttle. [[User:Mythsearcher|MythSearcher]]^{[[User talk:Mythsearcher|talk]]} 19:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

::::Oh okay, if they mention that in the stuff. --[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 01:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

:::::SSTO stands for Single Stage to Orbit, which just means a spacecraft that only uses one stage to reach earth orbit. Technically, no earth-launched SSTO has ever been built—the space shuttle uses auxiliary rockets for launch, so it is not actually a "single stage" vehicle. (There ''is'' a link for "SSTO" in the article, you know.)

:::::On a different subject, ''never ever'' rely on toys or models for information. Toy makers are notorious for fudging things, like the Eva action figures that came with swords, despite the fact that swords never made an appearance anywhere in the show or movie. (An American example would be all those Batman action figures over the years that have no equivalent in any of the Batman comics, movies or shows.) [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 15:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

::::::It is a published source, thus satisfies [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:V]]. You do not understand the Japanese toy makers, Bandai ''IS'' a company that is well known for ''using official sources in making toys, models and such.'' and it is a Japanese culture to add as much official detail into the models as possible, because they can then publish official guide books on the subjects and earn more money from those. The EVA action figures came with swords, because from an official illustration in the Manga we can see Eva Unit 1 carrying one. [[User:Mythsearcher|MythSearcher]]^{[[User talk:Mythsearcher|talk]]} 15:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

:::::Sorry. I didn't know. [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 17:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

::::::You do not need to apologize, it is not something that everybody knows, I simply stated a fact that should be able to help in contributing to the article and clarified it. [[User:Mythsearcher|MythSearcher]]^{[[User talk:Mythsearcher|talk]]} 19:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

== "Types" of Angels ==

In vol. 9 of the manga, when Armisael begins to infect the saw that Kaworu is using, he refers to the Angel as an "encroachment type". Has this particular designation been used anywhere else in NGE-related materials? [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 01:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

:Might have just been descriptive. --[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 07:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

== Other minor comment ==

With regards to one of the edits located in the Tabris section, there was a mention about the AT Field of equal strength belonging to Rei. Since the AT Field is regarded as the 'light of the soul' wouldn't the AT Fields of these two actually be part of the souls existing within them and thus belong to Adam and Lilith respectively? (I was just going to put a shorter version this in the edit history, but I changed my mind and accidentally hit Enter so ignore that meaningless edit)

:I see what you’re saying, but it was Kaworu and Rei who used the fields and not the Angels so I think we should keep it as is.[[User:The Twilight Goddess|The Twilight Goddess]] 03:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

==Sources to cite==

As the templates at the top of the page point out, this article doesn't cite (very many) sources. I was wondering: why don't we do what the articles on [[Bleach (anime)|Bleach]] do, and just start citing individual episodes and, where appropriate, the individual chapters of the manga? (Note that [[Bleach (anime)|Bleach]] does this, and is not labeled as lacking sources.) I think this is an excellent idea, and would help us toward getting the NGE article to featured status. [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 15:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

:In part it wasn't done before because the episode articles have only recently begun to exist. --[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 15:51 [[14 May]] [[2007]] (GMT)

::I will have everything interwikied within a matter of hours, just hang on. However, we've never been truly able to cite what they're named after; that is "Bardiel, Angel of Hail" or something; we're never concievably going to cite this, and it's keeping this article from getting a GA rating. --[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 15:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

:::It's going to take interviews with the Angels' designer(s) to find out exactly what went into their names, unless there's some source out there that no one's found yet. [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 16:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The name issue may prevent this article from getting Grade-A status, but that is beside the point. Mostly, I was thinking of citations for the descriptions of the Angels and the battles with them. (And as long as we're on the subject, there should be a paragraph somewhere in the article noting the difficulty of sourcing the Angel's names.) [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 18:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

== "God" vs. "Paper" under Zeruel ==

Personally, I don't understand why this sentence is in the article anyway (WP:Trivia), but regardless of that fact, kami (god) and kami (paper/hair) are pronounced differently in Japanese. "God" has the accent on the first syllable, while "paper" has the accent on the second syllable. While it might still seem like a good connection to make, as a native Japanese speaker, that's not a connection that I myself would ever have made, and without a (Japanese) source to back that up, I'd be hesistant about including it in the article. --[[User:Egocentrism04|Egocentrism04]] 18:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

:I agree that the sentence shouldn't be there in the first place—it is the sort of speculation that belongs on an in-depth fanpage, not on Wikipedia. [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 21:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

::I agree it should not be there at all, I reverted it last time because it would make no sense to be there if only God was taken away. (why would it be there to tell others paper and hair are pronounced the same way?) That sentence is just a pure speculation and Original research, I am happy that people agreed on taking it away. [[User:Mythsearcher|MythSearcher]]^{[[User talk:Mythsearcher|talk]]} 03:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

==Thoughts on rewriting the Adam and Lilith articles?==

Although I'm saving them for last, eventually I'll get around to doing a complete rewrite of the Adam and Lilith articles, on par with what I've done to the other Angel articles so far. (Currently, these articles look like... well, like fifty different people have been picking at them.) I'm asking for your help because they are the most difficult Angels to write about (they were never featured like the other Angels were, so I don't think my standard formula for writing Angel articles will work). I also don't want to cause any edit wars by removing some prized bit of speculation. Suggestions? [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 16:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

: I agree the articals should be rewritten mainly because i think more info on adam and liliths origins should be explained better i personally found it irrating that the show never explained straight out where they came from but rather used religious metaphors. [[user:jobywonkanobi]] 4:45, 21 May 2007

== Where were Angels #3 and on? ==

The origin of Adam and Lilith is explained, and the section on Adam states that the rest of the angels were descendant from Adam. But after the 2nd impact, Adam was reduced to an embryo form, and afterwards in SEELE's control and encased in bakelite (and then given to Gendo). Where were all of these descendants for the fifteen years between the 2nd Impact and Sachiel's attack on Tokyo-3?

Or, if that's never explained, at least, do we know when the Angels were separated from Adam? That is, did the 2nd Impact somehow create them all, or did they already exist before that?

:That's a major question that never got answered; at BEST, the running theory is that the "awakening" of Adam spread Angel-seeds about. But that's just conjecture. --[[User:Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici|Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici]] 05:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

==DNA? What DNA?==

The first paragraph of the article states that the Angels have 99.89% of the same DNA as humans. But, from what I recall during [[A transfer|episode 3]] (when Ritsuko is researching the remains of [[Angel (Neon Genesis Evangelion)#Shamshel|Shamhsel]]), she does not mention anything about DNA. (She does say something in science-babble, like "composed of both particulate and wave-form matter" and then says something about "99.89% similarity" to humans.) And what she displays on the computer screen is not DNA (which is typically displayed like a barcode) but something that resembles a mass spectrometer analysis.

This is a long and windy way of asking whether anyone can cite ''exactly'' what Ritsuko says about the "99.89% similarity" thing? (I do own the DVDs, but am unable to pull them out and check right now.) [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 15:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

:You mean something like [http://www.hy8.com/~tec/papers/omwsa01.zip this]?(pic in pdf file after unzip) This is what DNA looks like in academic research using the spectral analysis process(and BTW, that happens to be my boss' research). I cannot cite what exactly Ritsuko says in the anime, but I am sure it exactly means ''The Angels' DNA is 99.89% similar to humans'', I am looking at the chinese version of the manga and it says the same thing. [[User:Mythsearcher|MythSearcher]]^{[[User talk:Mythsearcher|talk]]} 16:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)\

[[Image:Angel spectrometer analysis (NGE).jpg|thumb|right|o_O Alright, so it is DNA.]]

I have checked with my DVDs. Ritsuko's exact quote is "composed of a type of matter characterized by both particulate and wave properties, like light." (I'm quoting the official subtitling to the original Japanese dub. I am also at a loss as to why I'm even quoting this.) Ritsuko then shows the "Angel's inherent wave pattern" (crappy screenshot of this to the right) and states "Although they are composed of a different form of matter, their actual composition, in terms of the arrangement and spacing of the pattern, falls within a 99.89% match of human genes."

In spite of the screenshot, which distinctly shows a DNA/"GATTACA" pattern, Ritsuko explicitly states that the Angels are composed of a different type of matter altogether--so much so that the computer can't even analyze it--which rules out DNA by definition; it clearly ''cannot'' be deoxyribonucleic acid. [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 04:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

:I'd say change the word ''DNA'' to ''genes''. I was a little influenced by the title back then, the sentence states genes instead of DNA in the manga, it is just that the two words were used so much to mean a similar thing and I mistranslated the word up there. [[User:Mythsearcher|MythSearcher]]^{[[User talk:Mythsearcher|talk]]} 06:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

DNA is DNA, whether it be human, animal, or angel. Most of you, if not all, are assuming the term DNA is in direct reference to humans, however, this is a misinterpretation. The image to the right presents the genetic sequence of an angel: C- Cytosine, G- Guanine (with every C complimented by G); A- Adenine, T- Thymine (with every A complimented by T).

==Note on Tabris==

The note mentioning how Kaworu appears earlier in the manga is unnecessary. First off, the current synopsis of Tabris does not state at what point he arrived, it is general enough to apply to both the anime and the manga. Secondly, it belongs in the [[Kaworu Nagisa]] article, as it deals with Kaworu, not Tabris. (Strictly speaking, "Tabris" did not appear until he hijacked Unit-02. Anything prior to that describes Kaworu.) [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 04:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

==Help with citations==

Can someone eliminate the redundant references? I tried to, doing that thing that lets you cite the same source multiple times, and what kept happenning was a bunch of code appeared in the References section, with either part of the Adam article disappearing or part of the Lilim article, depending on how I tried to tweak things.

By the way, how do you all like my rewrite of the main section? (I'm so shameless, I know. ^_^) [[User:Radioactive afikomen|Radioactive afikomen]] 05:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

:Overall, I'd say you did a good job. I might have some quibbles with wording, but that'd be about it. If...and that's a big IF...I get time this weekend, I'll go through the article and work on the references; we've got company for the weekend so if no one else does it, it may be next week before I can get to it. [[User:Willbyr|Willbyr]] ([[User_talk:Willbyr|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Willbyr|contribs]]) 12:21, 1 June 2007 (UTC)