MartinHarper

Revision as of 19:51, 28 September 2003

Latest revision as of 04:03, 13 July 2025

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'''My name is Martin, and I refactor my talk page'''

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I do get emails from Talk messages, so by all means ''try'' to contact me here. [[User:MartinHarper|Martin]] ([[User talk:MartinHarper#top|talk]]) 23:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

== Redirect listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==

''Hi, Martin!''

[[File:Information.svg|30px]]

Stuff written here could end up anywhere. In particular, my distaste for [[MeatBall:ForestFire]]s, bad [[troll]]s, and [[spam]] applies doubly here. Also, I summarise stuff. If my summaries are inaccurate, fix them!

A redirect or redirects you have created has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink| Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 May 24#Gender pronouns }}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:Rfd mass notice --> --[[User:MikutoH|<span style="color: #be1918;">'''MikutoH'''</span>]] [[User talk:MikutoH|^{<span style="color:#ee8b39;"> '''talk!''' </span>}]] 17:49, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

== Proposal ==

Unsigned stuff is probably written by me

Hello. I want to propose something very simple and straightforward to you: repeal these absurd rules: [[Wikipedia:Banning policy#Edits by and on behalf of banned and blocked editors|Wikipedia:Banning policy#Edits by and on behalf of banned and blocked editors|Banrevert]] and [[Wikipedia:Speedy deletion#G5. Creations by banned or blocked users, or in violation of general sanctions|Wikipedia:Speedy deletion#G5. Creations by banned or blocked users, or in violation of general sanctions]]. These rules do nothing for Wikipedia; they only encourage intolerance, sabotage of Wikipedia, conflicts, misunderstandings, and other unpleasant and unfavorable situations. There are several excellent articles created by users who were ultimately banned, and also articles and users who were deleted. Ethically, none of this is right. This would go on for too long, but I briefly explained why these rules should be repealed. Thank you. [[User:SocialQuote|SocialQuote]] ([[User talk:SocialQuote|talk]]) 00:42, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

See also: [[user talk:MyRedDice/refactoring]]

:Martin has not been active for a decade now. One user cannot dictate these kinds of decisions unilaterally, and I don't think you are in any position to make these requests given your lack of [[WP:AGF|good faith]] editing already. Don't try to [[WP:Game the system]] just because you don't like it. Wikipedia has rules just like any other site that must be followed if you want to have the privilege to keep contributing to it. It is that simple. <span style="font-family:Courier;">&mdash; [[User:Trailblazer101|''Trailblazer''^{<u>'''101'''</u>}🔥]]^{([[User talk:Trailblazer101#top|discuss]] · [[Special:Contributions/Trailblazer101|contribs]])}</span> 03:19, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

== Praise for... ==

::Weren't you taught not to interfere in other people's business? You're so rude. [[User:SocialQuote|SocialQuote]] ([[User talk:SocialQuote|talk]]) 04:02, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

''Helping my inner glow:''

* [[non-sexist language]] - praised by [[User:Jtdirl|JTD]] 02:51 Jan 29, 2003 (UTC)

* [[Wikipedia:Guide for h2g2 Researchers]] - praised by [[User:Stephen Gilbert|Stephen Gilbert]] and [[User:Eloquence|Eloquence]]

* [[Wikipedia:ISBN]]! - praised by [[User:Toby Bartels|Toby]] 12:02 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)

* [[wikipedia:image use policy|image use policy]] - praised by [[User:Maveric149|mav]]

* [[Camp X-Ray]] merge - praised by [[User:Two halves|Two halves]] 04:49 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)

== Top Trolls ==

''All accidental, I assure y'all''

* you caused a lot of fuss by moving [[list of famous football players]] [[User:Mintguy|Mintguy]]

== Best of old summaries ==

*Welcome! --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]]

*Welcome! --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]]

* (etc - Wikipedia is quite welcoming... once it notices you)

*Your username reminds me of [[Euridice]]. ;-) [[User:Koyaanis Qatsi|Koyaanis Qatsi]]

** I'm doomed!

* "Equal opportunity roasting place" -ROFL [[User:Stevertigo|'Vert]]

** I enjoy a well-executed troll, but would prefer to avoid seeing one executed

* There is a certain level of micro-management beyond which things become unacceptable. [[User:Tannin|Tannin]]

** Wikipedia brings out the [[Dilbert|pointy-haired boss]] in us all

* do you know a lot of vicars? [[User:Nevilley|Nevilley]]

** Yes, but I know more tarts.

== Summarised talk ==

* Write about your favourite pop artist!

** [[Gary Numan]]? Or [[John Denver]] perhaps? [[User:F1lby|F1lby]]

* [[Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom|Elizabeth II]] has two images, only one of which has been stolen [[User:Jtdirl|STÓD/ÉÍRE]]

** The Queen is poorer following my cockup

* But does she edit Wikipedia? [[User:Jtdirl|STÓD/ÉÍRE]] 22:53 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)

* Is there not a distinction between [[Islands of the North Atlantic]] and [[British Isles]]? - [[User:Hephaestos|Hephaestos]] 23:09 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

** We should not have two articles, merely because some islands have two names.

* I forgot to update my age on my home page...

** when you get older...you even forget how old you are, and need to count... [[User:anthere]]

*** When you get older still, you forget how to count...

**** The worms feed on you whatever your age. [[User:anthere]]

*Let it wash around you like water around a rock -[[User:º¡º|º¡º]]

** One cannot learn about filth without touching the mire [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]]

* "sophomore year" and "second year" - aren't they simply difference between the dialects? --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 08:58 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

** For those not used to american educative peculiarities, second year means something where Sophomore does not --Ant

* [[International English]] then? --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 10:49 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

** If there is an international term available, let us use it.

* [[User:Jacques Delson]] informed me that you removed some material from [[DMCA]] - now at [[talk:OCILLA]] - I'm going to try and merge it. Oh, and we shouldn't overuse the [[wikipedia:legal advice]] disclaimer. [[User:Alex756|Alex756]] 23:26 May 12, 2003 (UTC)

** Good luck with the merge. :)

* I don't get your use of NPOV dispute links. [[User:anthere]]

** Based on [[wikipedia:pages needing attention]], [[wikipedia:votes for NPOV]], and the time of last major revision. Remove the header if you think the article is sound.

* ''because of the author'' is not a decent reason for an NPOV dispute to me... (anthere)

** me neither

* [[Big Six of Progressive Rock]] is an orphan - fix it? [[User:Kingturtle|Kingturtle]] 06:33 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

** delete it...

* I see you are careful with my complaint on [[wikipedia:annoying users]]. In this particular instance, do whatever.[[User:Tannin|Tannin]]

** I was picking the low-hanging fruit

* Sorry about the Firehouse thing --[[User:Maveric149|mav]]

** ''totally'' no worries

* The names of the articles [[Communist state]] and [[Communist government]] break automatic linking. --[[User:The Cunctator|The Cunctator]] 14:56 May 16, 2003 (UTC)

** I concur. But I don't want to declare edit war.

* Do you think [[Puchland]] is encyclopedia material?--[[User:Eloquence|Eloquence]] 17:48 15 May 2003 (UTC)

** I'm agnostic. There is no Jimbo Wales.

* [[User:Mbecker|Mbecker]] == [[User:Mbecker|MB]] == [[User:Mbecker|Mbecker]]. [[User:Mbecker|MB]] 00:44 17 May 2003 (UTC)

** In this particular instance, I was aware.

* What do you think we should do about the copyright violation in the edit history? [[User:Ams80|Ams80]] 15:46 18 May 2003 (UTC)

** Check [[meta:Wikipedia and copyright issues]], about halfway down, which starts "Is it necessary that the copyrighted text entirely disappear [...] or can it stay in the history?". Also, we delete copyright violations for reasons of quality control, not legal paranoia.

* please undelete the articles on [[Wikipedia:votes for undeletion]]. --[[user:Anthere|Anthere]]

** Done. Aren't you a sysop?

* I do not wish to be a sysop and forget my humility. Perhaps in time. -- [[user:Anthere|Anthere]]

** You're right: I can summarise that in fifteen words... :)

***I finally asked to be a sysop. Unhappy. [[User:Anthere|Anthere]] 05:28 15 Jun 2003 (UTC) (signing for once)

* [[anti-Semitism]] improves, partly because of you -- [[User:Ruhrjung|Ruhrjung]] 20:32 20 May 2003 (UTC)

** [[Godwin's law]] ends the improvement. The world mourns.

* Good evening Martin-e. --Anther

** You mean "Lucinda"... or "Lucy" :)

* On the French Wikipedia, we look at the "Académie Française" and the "encyclopédie Larousse". On the English Wikipedia, we look at google. In the end, what makes a word or a notion "accepted" on the en, is not its real use but it being known by google. It would be interesting one day to list differences existing between each wiki. When I wrote [[QoI]] (oct or november I think), I remember distinctly there were only 3 references in google in french, and say around 20 worldwide for "QoI fungicides". 6 months later, there are about 200. Quite understandable: last fall had the first numerous observations of resistance. --Anthere

* [[User:Stevertigo|Stevertigo]] thinks she's funny... or Borat. In truth, neither ;-)

* Thanks for your help with Kils/Viking. [[User:Mbecker|MB]] 07:30 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

** I doubt I was helpful.

* You helped hook me on wikipedia! [[User:Skyfaller|Nelson]]

** Thanks, skyfaller :)

* Thanks for adding me to [[m:WikiWomen]]. Hugs, [[User:Next Paige|Paige]]

** A pleasure :)

* I'm just going nuts seeing the psuedo-scientific, "anti-scientism" and stereotype feeding junk people are putting here. -- [[User:Rotem Dan|Rotem Dan]] 10:18 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

** Do you cover the world in leather to make your feet comfortable?

* I sometimes have the false illusion that no one agrees with me. [[User:Rotem Dan|Rotem Dan]] 12:15 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

** We [[Dukkha|suffer]] for our false [[illusion]]s, yet suffer more from our true ones.

* Perhaps there are times of openness, such as when flowers want to get fertilized, and times of protection, nurturing the growing fruit ? (anthere)

* Not fair. I already had the idea for [[List of places with fewer than ten people]]... [[User:Ahoerstemeier|andy]] 22:41 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)

* You behaved admirably Oliver. If only every Wikipedian behaved as you do when in a ''bad'' mood, then this'd be a nicer place... :)

** In that case, I'll resist the urge to complain about you not signing the message I'm currently replying to... ;) -- [[User:Oliver Pereira|Oliver P.]] 11:47 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)

* "Unsigned stuff is probably written by me"

* Otherwise, it is by me

** Conversations between Martin and Anthere are my worst nightmare. ;) -- [[User:Oliver Pereira|Oliver P.]] 14:15 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)

*Martin ''is'' MyRedDice. :-) [[User:Evercat|Evercat]] 19:40 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)

** Would that it were that simple...

* interesting piece you wrote about eventualism v. immediatism [[User:LittleDan|LittleDan]] 00:49 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)

** An idle piece of whimsy

* Abusively delete pages... nah, I'll pick u a beer or two (anthere)

** *giggle* :)

* yes, of course are we giving you the right to use our images! - Vikings 23:03 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)

** could you drop a note on the [[wikipedia:image description page|image description page]] then? Cheers...

* I love the timeline on [[User talk:Zoe]]. It reads like a detective's report on some horrific airplane crash, or something. :-) [[User:Evercat|Evercat]] 01:38 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

*Do you realize that you have been inconsitent in your usage of periods on the [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (years in titles)]] page (U.S. & US)? ;) --[[User:Dante Alighieri|Dante Alighieri]] 10:02 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

** I'm a bad, bad girl.

* Interesting results! Where is David Dimbleby when you need him? :-) [[User:Jtdirl|FearÉIREANN]] 10:08 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

* Do you have some sort of IM client? --[[User:Dante Alighieri|Dante Alighieri]] 19:33 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)

** Nope

* observe my edit summaries... [[User:Pizza Puzzle|Pizza Puzzle]]

** Looks good, but [advice]

* undeletion request moved to [[Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion]]

* I am fighting against my "judéo chrétienne" education. [[User:Anthere|Elk]]

** My response to suffering is more Buddhist in style. [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 10:05 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

* you have been nominated for a more "formal" sysophood. --[[User:Dante Alighieri|Dante Alighieri]] 07:36 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

** sweet, but not something I was after.

* I thought your comment on 2003 in sports was quite funny really. [[User:Lisiate|Lisiate]] 23:13 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

** is there really a policy of reverting everything if it's discovered that a user is an alias for a hard-banned user? [[user:Evercat]] 23:16 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

*** no idea. (longer response to [[user talk:Evercat]]

* GREAT idea - no personal attack. Wikilove. (anthere)

* Thanks for going through the Village Pump archives and putting comments in context. --[[User:Eloquence|Eloquence]] 19:47 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)

* we should be able to have articles on dimensionaless orders of magnitude such as [[1 E6]]. [[User:The Anome|The Anome]]

** nice idea :) [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 00:14, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

* I need any reference to what guidelines exist on edit wars and page protection. (Anthere)

** [[wikipedia:protected page]] is all we have...

* I added a link from [[User:Jfitzg|Jfitzg]] to [[User:Trontonian|Trontonian]], as you suggested. [[User:Jfitzg|Jfitzg]]

* I wonder if most of your text in the article on [[Vote]] wouldn't better be merged with [[voting system]] or [[election]]. [[User:Ruhrjung|Ruhrjung]] 16:38 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

** could be. Go for it.

* The Wikipedia articles on [[voting system]]s are rubbish... (cont at [[Talk:Single Transferable Vote]]) [[User:Jtdirl|FearÉIREANN]] 03:33 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

** Fortunate then that my knowledge of voting systems does not rely on Wikipedia...

* Good work on the intro to [[consensual crime]]! :) --[[User:Dante Alighieri|Dante Alighieri]] 01:25 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

* my raelien left in disgust - the triumph of the mob (anthere)

* I don't know whether DW's range of shared IPs are still blocked. [[User:Jtdirl|FearÉIREANN]]

* you have been disambiguating Michael Collins (Jtdirl)

** Not for months.

* Ruhrjung discussion to [[Talk:Swedish language]]

* I miss the [[Mars bar sex party]] :-(

** You should have voted![[User:Evercat|Evercat]] 17:24 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

* Camembert said, "Its not worth the trouble" after 172 told him to stop foaming at the mouth. Why is a sysop allowed to go around attacking anyone who disagrees with him? [[User:Pizza Puzzle|Pizza Puzzle]]

** Treasures abound, as far as the eye can see. Why does the dragon's hoard seem the most attractive?

* Please make new edits to [[Talk:Daniel C. Boyer]] and not the old archived page. --[[User:Daniel C. Boyer|Daniel C. Boyer]] 17:35 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

** Old talk is best placed in the old archived page.

*Jtdirl protected [[New Imperialism]], despite being in an edit war there. [[User:Pizza Puzzle|Pizza Puzzle]]

** We have some advice for you on [[Wikipedia:staying cool when the editing gets hot|staying cool when the editing gets hot]].

*Jtdirl has abused his sysop powers. [[User:Pizza Puzzle|Pizza Puzzle]]

** Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

* The [[New Imperialism]] issue is hardly minor. [[User:Pizza Puzzle|Pizza Puzzle]]

** It's minor to me.

* Martin, I only protected the page temporarily to... yada, yada, yada [[User:Jtdirl|FearÉIREANN]] 15:21 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

** I don't question your motives, Jtdirl, but your action is at variance with our current recommendations.

* Yoism discussion -> [[User talk:OverZealousFan]]

* I compiled [[User:Evercat/PP|this on PP]]. [[User:Evercat|Evercat]] 01:03, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

** I will now be able to make an informed decision.

* I've noticed you editing [[Daniel C. Boyer]]... [[User:Mbecker|MB]]

** I find out very attractive. Will you go to bed with me? (bad musical reference, sorry)

* I removed Boyer's publisher info - it was misleading. [[User:Kat|Kat]] 18:45, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

** But counteracted by the e-Bay info.

* If Boyer attacks reasonable presumptions, what can we do? [[User:Kat|Kat]] 19:12, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

** Ignore him?

* Are there clear rules on deleting redirects? [[User:Mbecker|MB]] 20:58, Jul 31, 2003 (UTC)

** We used to have unclear rules - but now we have clearly disputed rules.

* I look at my user page for replies to my messages. [[User:Mbecker|MB]]

** If you look hard enough in the wrong place, you will see things that are not there.

* We're currently looking for speakers for the next [http://www.wizards-of-os.org/ Wizards of OS] conference in [[Berlin]], in April 2004. Could you speak on h2g2 vs Wikipedia?

** I don't know.

* I think the reasons for deletion far outweigh reasons for keeping. [[User:Mbecker|MB]] 21:47, Aug 1, 2003 (UTC)

** I don't.

* Why don't you just unblank those portions that you feel are verified? [[User:Kat|Kat]] 22:33, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

** Why don't you just blank those portions you feel are unverified? ;-)

* You missed the point. [[User:Kat|Kat]] 23:30, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

** Your point is that if Boyer has an article, why can't you?

* No. The page was patent nonsense. [[User:Kat|Kat]] 23:51, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

* Evercat comment - response at [[User talk:Evercat/PP]]

* 172 comment - moved to [[talk:New Imperialism]]

* My opinion about [[Slogan 'AIDS Kills Fags Dead'|AKFD]] hasn't changed. [[User:Koyaanis Qatsi|Koyaanis Qatsi]] 19:24, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)

* What was the resolution to the AKFD nonsense? -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 21:02, Aug 3, 2003 (UTC)

** We were resolved to be unresolved

* I didn't know that there was going to be an additional vote. [[User:LittleDan|LDan]] 16:45, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

** Better than a coup d'etat.

* What's this with wiki-wolves? [[User:Koyaanis Qatsi|Koyaanis Qatsi]] 21:31, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

** They devour all things, howling as they go.

* Welcome boilerplate? Try [[Wikipedia:Standard user greeting]]

* ''MBecker comment to [[talk:Daniel C. Boyer]]''

* Spam from the legion of trolls deleted.

* Was your foolishness important enough to summarise?

** No, but I didn't want to remove material unfavorable to myself. [[User:Kat|Kat]] 20:20, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

* Verifiability/etc comments by Kat -> [[Wikipedia talk:Criteria for inclusion of biographies]]

* how many people knew of the vote? -> [[Wikipedia talk:Vote]]

* ''discussion of 172's sysop status moved to [[User talk:172 sysop status]]''

* ''more discussion moved to same''

* sv spam deleted

* I undeleted [[Adolf Hitlier]] as you requested, master. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 23:21, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

** You are a most pleasing slave.

* Very interesting comment from Alex756 regarding invariant sections, the GFDL, and the edit warning - moved and responded at [[User talk:Alex756]] - people interested in Wikipedia copyrights would do well to read.

* You are required at [[Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy]]. [[User:Oliver Pereira|Oliver P.]] 20:49, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

** You talking to me?

*You are 24 Martin ? Ant

** J'ai 24 ans, mais je ne suis pas 24.

* What was the conclusion over Daniel matter ? Ant

** [[Limbo]]. Somewhere between the <strike>[[heaven]]</strike> [[hell]] of being kept, and the <strike>[[hell]]</strike> [[heaven]] of being deleted.

* We should not rely on the self-righteous Meatballers to run things here. [[User:EntmootsOfTrolls|EofT]]

** Neither should we ignore what they have to say.

* Messy RK vs EofT content deleted. Thanks to EofT for informing me, Uncle Ed for his compliment, Stevertigo and anthere for their sysop powers.

* discussion to [[Wikipedia:Community case RK]]

* E2 -> moved to [[Wikipedia talk:Guide for Everything2 noders]]

* Obscenities on Talk Israel: ''See Jtdirl's explanation on [[Talk:Israel]], and my response there.''

* Please could you leave at least a summary of the Brazil rocket thing on the pump? -- [[User:Tarquin|Tarquin]] 13:56, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

* Martin, I am likely mere minutes away from being banned for resisting the rule of RK. I hope we wikimeet again. If you see the Buddha on the wiki... well you know. --EofT

** Engage him in edit war?

* a light hearted attempt at humour by --[[User:Dante Alighieri|Dante Alighieri]] 23:04, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC) on the WikiEN-l. Meets with my approval.

* Wish you were french. Anthere

** I save my wishes for greater transformations.

*Was not there an article written about donations? Anthere

** [[wikipedia:donations]]

== New talk ==

Terrible abuse of my sysop powers I know :)

It was quite annoying seeing my name in red everywhere. I was too much of a Wikipediholic to stay away. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

----

* help with the [[Wikipedia:Sysop reading list]] and [[Wikipedia:List_of_central_issues]] [[User:EntmootsOfTrolls|EofT]]

** Your edits in this area are less useful than those elsewhere.

***Hmm, then, maybe ''your'' edits are what is required? Judging by the plain ignorance of central issues by many people including those who are trying to stand for "fairness" and "process", I beg to differ. If we had just a dozen people who were actually conversant in the theory of these central issues required to run an encyclopedia, and a hundred sysops who could tell propaganda techniques from politically motivated vandalism from personality conflict, we would have few or none of the troubles we have run into recently, and [[User:Jimbo_Wales/Pushing_To_1.0|a redistributable 1.0]] would be a foregone conclusion. But as you wish. [[User:EntmootsOfTrolls|EofT]]

----

Martin,

I have been following the conversation on the mailing list. The criticisms of you there are particularly unfair. Persevere.

: Thanks Kat :)

Since you are familiar with MFC and hence Windows, I thought you might be interested to know that I have a mirror set up in my lab running XP, with Apache, MySQL, PHP, Wikipedia, and the latest dump from the meta. It works well and took surprisingly little tinkering given that the whole system was developed for Linux. I had to carve up some of the Wikipedia source to work around a PHP bug involving detection of repeated include files in the case-schizophrenic NTFS file system. Perhaps I'll post my notes somewhere.

[[User:Kat|Kat]] 01:42, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

: Surprising. Don't post them on my behalf - I'm not planning to have Wikipedia in the short term - but long term I might well be interested. :)

Hello Martin. I got your message, and am loading up (trying to) the restore list now. Id also like a word with you in private. utilitymuffinresearch2 AT yahoo POT com -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 23:33, Aug 28, 2003 (UTC)

== ethics dispute ==

[[Talk:ethics]] contains (most recently) a dispute between a troll and RK. The last two paragraphs added may be of great interest to you, as they document yet another situation where an overt POV is being pushed in various overt and subtle ways. Hard yet to know whether the deletions/insertions constitute stupidity or some less common disease. This may be about to become another RK edit war.

== Page protection ==

Could you act as a neutral mediator for the page [[Medical analysis of circumcision]]? An anonymous user is trying to turn this page, and circumcision, into a pro-circumcision propaganda page. To this end, he has removed studies and citations which he did not like, source dumped large amounts of material from pro-circumcision websites, added a list of circumcised people to prove that circumcision is associated with intelligence, claimed that circumcision is linked to homosexual beliefs etc. I have explained specifically why I have not integrated certain of his edits on Talk:Medical analysis of circumcision, but he just keeps reverting to his revision instead of discussing his changes. At this point, I think it would make most sense to protect either my last revision (which integrates those edits from him which I consider neutral) or the one before he started editing the page, in order to make him discuss his proposed changes. I would of course refrain from editing the page as long as it is protected, but back and forth reverting the page is pointless.[[User:Eloquence|&mdash;Eloquence]] 18:57, Aug 29, 2003 (UTC)

==Reversions==

Signing other people's comments is entirely reasonable - I do it regularly for Anthere, people have done it for me, and I've done it for 142.177.etc before now, without objection. I don't think it's at all controversial - yours is the very first revertion I've had. So I reinstated.

:Ok, no problem. When I first read it, it seemed like what [[User:Cyan|Cyan]] was saying no longer made sense if the comment ''had'' been signed, but on re-reading, I realised he was talking about the use of the word 'someone' rather than the comment itself. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

it becomes clear. :)

: And to me, as well... <strokes chin looking thoughtful> -- [[User:Cyan|Cyan]] 01:03, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Wikipolity==

[[Wikipedia:political dispute]] outlines some emergent challenges that [[User:Kat]], [[User:Jtdirl]], [[User:Anthere]], myself and others have explicitly commented on, and outlines an approach based on the [[political virtues]] article. It seems unlikely that any bureaucracy of accountability can really get all the politics out of disputes. We probably need some explicit means like a [[duel]] or [[election]] to deal with the truly irreconcilable disputes, at least for a time. This might for instance be how "who leaves the page alone" gets decided.[[User:EntmootsOfTrolls|EofT]]

I tried to apply the [[political virtues]] to someone's ongoing dispute with me and my responses, and [[User:EntmootsOfTrolls/self-assessment|this]] was the possibly-amusing result. Not by any means representative, of course, but, others might find better ways and more important issues to apply the concept to. We could do worse than use this list of attributes to assess who needs to work harder to resolve a given dispute. [[User:EntmootsOfTrolls|EofT]]

----

Hrmm. Sure you want to be linking to anchors within pages? These are subject to disappear without warning, and they'll be the only type of links that look correct but are actually broken... [[User:Evercat|Evercat]] 01:55, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

* essay -> [[Wikipedia talk:Archived delete debates]]

----

: ''Talk with Jay (mostly) moved to [[talk:List of Indians]] - was I too bold?''

----

Thanks for the tip about the "ceasefire" -- I hadn't heard... --[[User:Ed Poor|Uncle Ed]] 17:35, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

==Subpages==

Martin, help! I was trying to help with the [[Wikipedia:Subpages to be moved|Subpages to be moved]] but now I'm just confused. I think [[Egypt/Temp]], [[European Union/Temp]], [[Global warming/Temp]] and [[Kyrgyzstan/Temp]] might need fixing. If I move them to the talk space, what happens with their talk pages? I think I've merged in each temp page with what was its original talk page. Is that what was supposed to happen? Please let me know where they should be so I can fix them. Sorry for being a nuisance. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 23:34, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

: I'm going to bed! :)

Thanks for the new instructions at [[Wikipedia:How to rename (move) a page|how to rename (move) a page]]. Sorry for fucking it up. :( [[User:Angela|Angela]]

: Np. My own fault for not making the dangers clear enough! No longterm harm done.

: I'm still avoiding those /Temp pages of yours, on account of I'm now very confused...

==Refactoring==

Martin, I'm glad '''someone''' with the wit and gumption to do it, has begun refactoring the talk pages. Please do mine, too! --[[User:Ed Poor|Uncle Ed]] 19:38, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

== SEPP issues with TAR ==

== SEPP issues with TAR ==

You removed my comment that SEPP had raised no issues with the TAR. But you failed to replace it with the issues that they had raised. So what are they? I can find none on their web site. Do tell. ([[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] 16:07, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)).

You also removed the para showing that SEPP had used misleading/inappropriate surveys to support their position. Why? ([[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] 16:07, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)).

==IPCC==

[[IPCC TAR summary conflict]] is now undeleted and redirected to [[IPCC]]. The history contained only redirects anyway. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 22:29, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

: But an interesting history... at least to me. :) [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 23:43, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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* I would appreciate links to the old discussion about the lag time on VfD.[[User:Cyan|Cyan]] 00:58, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)

** I've [[wikipedia talk:votes for deletion/lag time|made the link]]. Be cautious, lest it become a chain.

* Much appreciated. -- [[User:Cyan|Cyan]] 13:32, 9 Sep 2003 (EDT)

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Hi there

I'm not quite clear on procedures, so I thought I'd ask. I went to '[[smokejumper]]', which was on VfD for being content-free, and added a minimal amount of content, and noted this fact on VfD. I had expected that after this it would stay at least as a stub. Did I need to do something else to suggest this, or was the content I added insufficient? Was there something I missed? [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] 19:10, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)

: Hi. You did great - I delisted it, not deleted it... Sorry if I was unclear [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 19:22, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)

: As I would have found if I had followed the link. Thanks for the explanation. [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] 10:40, 9 Sep 2003 (EDT)

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Thank you. I think things could end up very heated if people start doing things to other people's talk pages that the user in question objects to. If RickK doesn't like what Jiang writes about him on his own talk page then I think he is justified in removing that. If he were removing it from the [[Wikipedia:Problem users|Problem users]] page, that would be a different matter. If Jiang has a problem with RickK that he feels needs to read by others then he ought to take that to a more public place than RickK's talk page. Alternatively, if his statements are meant to be read only by Rick then there is no harm in Rick removing them once he has read them. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 14:46, Sep 11, 2003 (UTC)

: There is wisdom in your words. Nevertheless, I am saddened by the idea that such pages are "owned" by the users, who have "rights" over their form. Such [[property is theft]].

==Relevance==

You know Martin...a curious feeling...some people says wikipedia should aim at containing all usefull knowledge in the world. And wikipedia in different languages should not ultimately so much differ one from another, since aim at containing all knowledge...would that mean that each of them should also contain the knowledge it thinks irrelevant, but is actually relevant in another language/culture set ? I mean...ideally, if the en wikipedia decides Boyer is not relevant, why should it be relevant to the french ? But similarly, if the french keep Boyer, why would the en decide it is irrelevant ? It makes me actually thinks of a three star system, *** to indicate major articles, very important, essential notions for any decent person to know, ** to indicate significantly issues and topics, * for common topic or very focused topics (professional stuff for example), no star for unclassified, articles on unknown people, little covered topics.

Hum...ok, beer time :-)

: <nowiki>Makes me think of a new idea myself: [[[[vitally important link]]]], [[[useful link]]], [[rarely used link]]</nowiki> - and allow people to configure how many links they want to be shown (and perhaps, important links in bold or otherwise highlighted).

: Bed for me :)

::very sweet dreams :-))

-------

Hi MRD. I've done a search and there seem to be no further pages in the same scheme as [[France: Wars of Religion/Bourbon Dynasty]]. The place to co-ordinate their integration would be [[Talk:History of France]], I've put a note there for when someone has time to deal with it. cheers. -- [[User:Tarquin|Tarquin]] 14:28, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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Hello. Good evening

I was wrong. It was a redirect. I hate these redirections from one wikipedia to another. This is totally misleading :-(

: It happens :)

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Hadn't noticed that; thanks for pointing it out! - [[User:Hephaestos|Hephaestos]] 19:34, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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It is really interesting to dig in archives and talk pages. I read the weasel, verifiability and source citing pages today. Recently, I had a rather strong debate on the french wikipedia, on an article dealing with the very high temperatures of this summer, and their impacts in Europe. This article was rather nice, result from a collaboration between several newbies. But an amazing collection of fluttery assertions, free comments, dubious facts, aside with very solid and reliable stuff. I boldly pointed out at the worse points in the talk page, asking for sources. As a result, I was either answered that it was stupid from me to ask this since of course everyone knew it, and second that is was my business, so if I had problems with the article verifiability, it was my problem to correct it and check for sources and that I just had to watch tv as everyone. Mind you, there were some comments such as the US/Canada electricity break out was due to the wide use of air cooler, due to the high temperatures that swept throughtout the world that summer :-)))) or that since it was obvious that climate changes was occuring now, lobbyists were trying to hide their responsabilities. Hum...what is that supposed to mean, I still do not know. Anyway, I barely succeeded to convince the authors that it was not *my* responsability to correct all their laxist work. I looked for a couple of things though, hence removed some of the funniest parts.

We have no guidelines anywhere about how to deal with verification.

I think I have a couple of update to do, and then, an example to make :-))). That would perhaps trigger some interesting discussions about verifiability sources :-)

: It must be really fascinating, seeing at first hand the differences between the various language projects. It's likewise fascinating reading old archives of discussions on en.wiki - back in the days of Larry Sanger and the Cunctator, when the place was almost without form. Strange how much Wikipedia has changed over time, despite the conservatism that it displays on its face.

::yup. I got around feb 2002, when Larry lost the job. On the french slightly later. When I got on the french, we had about 200-300 pages perhaps, user and meta included. Not to say that these were much. Perhaps 20 user pages ? Perhaps 20 meta pages, the basic guidelines, how to edit, why contribute. Just translation of english pages made by the starters. Nothing else. And most contributors not having anything to do with en, or just interested in making pages. No more.

::I often wonder what would have happen without me :-) Not to say it would not have been good at all :-) It is just that...I think I wrote more than 50% of the meta pages. Perhaps more. Basically, the ones I did not write are those about naming conventions and such, which are more the realm of Aoineko or Looxix. But most of what I write was with the english model, removing what seemed bad, adding what seemed good. Now, there are a couple of people interested in this too, but usually, most contributors don't care much. They ask for the rules, much more than they tend to make them or participate making them. And complain if the rules do not exist, or if they do exist without having been written. So, I wonder how it would have evolved if I had not make noise on meta, noise on ML and made so many meta pages at all. Would someone else have emerged to do them ? Did I somehow prevent that ? Which would have been the rules then ? Would it have been very much different from what they are now ? I created very little myself, but what would have happened if I had not done anything ? Most of what I "creatively" did was to try to balance things. What would have happened if not ? It is probably harder to say on en, but on the french, we still are not numerous, so just one person can make a huge difference. And we are all precious. Especially the trolls :-) Thank God, the Cunctator was there in front of Larry !!!

::shorten in three of your words : ''it is fascinating''. :-))))

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I'm not interested in being lectured to. Please keep your unsolicited advice to yourself. There are certainly many other people you can nag. You're very good at it. [[User:RickK|RickK]] 01:19, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

:See http://www.worldviewpub.com/ Thanks. --[[User:Jiang|Jiang]]

:You didn't ask for my opinion, but I gave it anyway, because I'm so fantastically generous :) [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 02:22, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

* Jenna Bush breast baring -> [[Barbara and Jenna Bush]]

==Robert Taylor Stuff==

Sounds like a nasty interaction of edit conflicts, redirects and moved articles. I guess I should try to reproduce it on test.wikipedia and submit something to [[wikipedia:bug reports|bug reports]] - or at least edit the help pages appropriately. Ho hum. [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 15:23, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

:I don't think it is a bug. From what I can tell, Robert thought it was the software playing up (but it was actually RickK trying to edit the page) and RickK thought it was a vandal (it was actually a newbie who didn't understand and didn't read the warnings on his talk page). I have explained this to him in an e-mail. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 18:36, Sep 16, 2003 (UTC)

:: Well, you certainly can get into really weird situations when page moves overlap in time with edits, and the symptoms sounded familiar. But thanks for info. [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 22:29, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

What is interesting with protection war is that is invisible. A perfect example of the total irreality of consensus on wikipedia. Kat was right to leave. Indeed loosing hir time.

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I have reverted your redirection of [[Living space]] to [[Lebensraum]]. The edit summary explains my rationale. Cheers, [[User:Cyan|Cyan]] 09:16, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

===Village Pump Deletions===

You can't just [http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump&diff=1452352&oldid=1452338 delete] other people's comments from the middle of discussions! [[User:Cgs|CGS]] 12:45, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC).

: ''If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here.'' ;-)

: I thought leaving your comment in might change its meaning too much - but thanks for the feedback.

:: Yeah, ok. But would you be happy with me mercilessly editing comments that you have signed? Perhaps adding some insults or making you look stupid? You have to be careful editing things that people have said in the meta pages, they're different to the articles. [[User:Cgs|CGS]] 14:24, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC).

: Be bold in editing my comments - they're GFDL'd for a reason.

: I don't think I've made anyone look stupid, or added insults to anyone's comments.

: I agree with you that when we do any talk-refactoring, we need to be careful.

: In this case, I was concerned that leaving your comment, while deleting mine, might misrepresent what you were saying, but I see that I was wrong, and should have left it.

=== list of hets ===

Indeed, I was thinking of how to satisfy Jtdirls claim that an "archive" was somehow needed...it did not occur to me to note that a link to a page history was sufficient. [[User:Lir|LirQ]]

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Hi Martin, I reverted your revert at [[Wikipedia:Redirect]]. It seems all such pages are now moving to Meta. Having the text here as well will mean the two don't match, so there should be only one version. I think the link is there to avoid the problems that some people have with inter-wiki redirects. See mav's message at [[Wikipedia talk:Redirect#Plan to move most of this page to meta soon]]. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 15:55, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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Thanks for pointing it out. I thought it was meant to be impossible for inlined images to appear anywhere. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 21:05, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

: So did I. I've raised a bug report.

: Keep it under your hat... :) [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 21:27, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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RE: What do other wikipedians think of me

:Boy with blanks? Isn't that for folks who are impotent?

^_^ Has any one ever told you how much we appreciate your sense of humor? If it wasn't for handful of great people like you here, I think I would have probably give up on this whole place as a colossal waste of time. So...thank you for that. (I think you probably don't hear that enough around here, which is a shame.) </sappy-touchy-feely-ness> [[User:Next Paige|Paige]] 00:46, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

(When you summarize this, please just tell everyone that I told you "That's a very silly hat you have on.") &#167:o)

: Aww, sweetness!

: Love yous, hun, keep up the good work. :)

''I moved this off talk:Main Page, because I'm not sure it was relevant there, but I didn't want to just delete it. k?'' Not a problem, I just didn't know where else to put it. [[User:RickK|RickK]] 06:26, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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Hi Martin, I feel that user pages should be protected because it is the one place in wikipedia where one's one expression can be presented in its most pure form. Also, it is to thwart vandals. Is there anything in particular you think needs changing? [[User:Kingturtle|Kingturtle]] 17:46, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

by all mean Martin, if a vote is going on somewhere, that could result in only sysops having the right to edit user page, do remember to tell me. I would certainly disagree that you cannot edit my user page any more. Ant

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PLease archive your talk page. It would not be appropriate to refer to Thatcher/Reagan's actions as "strong" neo-liberalism. [[User:Lir|LirQ]]

Ill do it gradually over time, my policy with anything (such as making lists or redirecting pages) is to do only a few every now and again, that way it doesnt give me a headache. Regardless, for technical reasons u should archive your page -- '''some browsers may have problems editing pages approaching or longer than 32kb''' [[User:Lir|LirQ]]

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Sometimes Hanlon's razor cuts me. Thanks for the instructions. -- [[User:Cyan|Cyan]] 19:50, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)