Talk:Spanish language: Difference between revisions

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== Limits of this page ==

'''Previous discussions:'''

Regarding this recently deleted, and then undeleted, statement: ''The Spanish spoken in North Africa by native bilingual speakers of Arabic or Berber who also speak Spanish as a second language features characteristics involving the variability of the vowel system.'' This means that the way Spanish is spoken as a second language in one particular non-native area is relevant for this page. Apparently it is more relevant because of the presence of 2 Spanish cities in North Africa, which probably means that it is even more relevant for places like the US, Brazil or several Caribbean nations. Should we include, for instance, that students of Spanish from the US have trouble with the /ɾ/ - /r/ difference and they often get rid of the distinction in their Spanish? Or that Brazilian students of Spanish tend to pronounce both those sounds as velars? All that, I insist, in '''this''' particular page, and not for instance in [[Spanish as a second or foreign language]], or other pages. I don't think that is a wise policy, the probability of someone reading this page to find out about that sort of details is, well, roughly zero. [[User:Jotamar|Jotamar]] ([[User talk:Jotamar|talk]]) 00:16, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

*[[Talk:Spanish language/Archive01|Archive 01 (Aug 2002 to Mar 2005)]]:

:Succintly outlining diglossic dynamics and language contact (and attrition) in the US in this page would be great, tbh. I am not sure if the context solely relates to "learners" in an academic setting. The current emphasis in this article favours speaking about the language in places in which it is not very spoken (plus counting up to the last speaker and not nuancing in any way whatsoever the "sovereign country" frame), instead of speaking about the languages in the places in which the language is spoken ''a lot'', such as the Americas. In this sense, outlining dynamics of language contact and sociolinguistics in regard of some major indigenous languages of the Americas such as Guarani, Quechua or Aymara would be ace. The geographical area of linguistic transition between vernacular languages in North Africa, which is perhaps more relevant ''within'' those two cities than beyond those two cities, is interesting in a context of talking about the geographical distribution of a given language, and is perhaps less abrupt than most of the Portuguese-Spanish transition area in the Iberian Peninsula. Something about language contact in Uruguay-Brazil could be perhaps worth mentioning. All of this, of course, framing/focusing information in this article in terms of the language which this article deals about--Asqueladd ([[User talk:Asqueladd|talk]]) 20:37, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

:<small> 1 Incorrection | 2 Loss of vosotros/vuestro in parts of South America? | 3 IPA and SAMPA usage and inconsistencies | 4 History | 5 Major changes in the 19th century? | 6 Semivowel or not? | 7 También and compadre have /n/ (arch)phoneme | 8 Inverted question marks | 9 Spanish syntax | 10 Castilian or Spanish? The situation in Spain | 11 Separate Grammar Page | 12 one of the oldest languages in the world | 13 Sound bites | 14 Oh dear | 15 Help with article | 16 MadriD | 17 Misspellings | 18 Adjectives | 19 Second person, third person, questions | 20 Castellano and Español | 21 digraphs as letters | 22 Countries that say castellano | 23 POV addition by anon | 24 Brazil | 25 Spanish word list | 26 Languages of... | 27 Northern Morocco </small>

::That's not to say that at some point content may not be redirected to a more specific article, but frankly, the intimidating table entitled "Spanish speakers by country" full of original research and lopsided numbers should go first.--Asqueladd ([[User talk:Asqueladd|talk]]) 22:26, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

:::In addition to relevance, another concern of mine is that, being the only mention of traits of Spanish as a second language in all of the page, the text in question might easily mislead readers into thinking that Spanish is a native language in Northern Morocco. --[[User:Jotamar|Jotamar]] ([[User talk:Jotamar|talk]]) 23:07, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

::::I think the text talks about Northern Africa which deals about Spain and Morocco and it does not frames it in terms of native language. It is written thinking as those cities and its Moroccan hinterland as a region with a gradient. There are inhabitants (as well as workers: a flux of up to 30,000 vehicles a day in the Melilla-Nador-Selouane axis) in those two cities who do not have Spanish as a native language. As I said that gradient is perhaps more relevant within those Spanish cities ("Spain") than beyond them ("Morocco") but it exists both within and beyond. The source does not make a distinction either.--Asqueladd ([[User talk:Asqueladd|talk]]) 19:56, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

== ¿what's the source of the .castilian red and .spanish blue name map? ==

'''Please add new threads at the bottom of this page'''

----

__TOC__

== Number of speakers ==

.i found a similar map where .el .salvador, .peru, and .chile are shaded in .castilian red:

Where do the new figures for number of speakers come from? I don't mind people updating stuff without references ''per se'', but this kind of thing should be substantiated with sources...and there is ''no way'' anyone can authoritatively update such a thing (population figures) without sources...especially not when dealing with ''millions'' of speakers. [[User:TShilo12|Tomer]] ^{<font color=129DBC>[[User talk:TShilo12|TALK]]</font>} 02:02, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

[https://moverdb.com/es/castellano-vs-espanol/ Mapa de "Castellano" frente a "Español" para referirse al español - MoverDB.com] [[User:Brawlio|Brawlio]] ([[User talk:Brawlio|talk]]) 03:36, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

== All of Latin America is a Spanish region??? No! ==

:I am from Chile and we rarely refer to the language as "Español", almost always as "Castellano," in school textbooks and casual conversation. This might be changing with immigrants from other parts of South America who prefer to use "Español". I would support changing the map to the one you linked to, or one that has Chile with dashes.

In the info box section the "region" of the Spanish language says the language is spoken in "Spain, almost all of Latin America," - that is total nonsense. Brazil is a part of Latin America, in fact it is the largest(geographically) and most populous country in the region with more than a third of its population and Spanish is NOT widely spoken in Brazil. I changed the statement to "Central and South America, Caribbean islands,"

:Sources:

--[[User:212.82.166.162|212.82.166.162]] 09:46, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)Harold

:- Chilean General Education Law from 2009, Article 30, no. 2, declaring that "Lengua Castellana" is the primary language of instruction: https://www.bcn.cl/leychile/navegar?idNorma=1006043&idParte=

:- Textbook from the Ministry of Education for "Castellano" as a school subject:https://bibliotecadigital.mineduc.cl/bitstream/handle/20.500.12365/411/MONO-341.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

:- Textbook from 1967 also highlighting "Castellano", showing that this is the historically relevant term: https://bibliotecadigital.mineduc.cl/handle/20.500.12365/19723?show=full [[User:Diegojosesalva|Diegojosesalva]] ([[User talk:Diegojosesalva|talk]]) 19:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

::I answered this on the Spanish Wikipedia, but for the Philippines the source is page 236 of ''[https://books.google.com/books?id=xq_Lr-47DVUC&pg=FC La lengua española en Filipinas]'' by the Spanish linguists Antonio Quilis and Celia Casado-Fresnillo. 85% of their respondents referred to the language as "español"; the remainder used "castellano". This maps with contemporary (although anecdotal at this point) use of the two terms in English and the Philippine languages. --[[User:Sky Harbor|<b style="color: #0066ff">Sky Harbor</b>]] ^{([[User talk:Sky Harbor|<b style="color:#0066ff">talk</b>]])} 17:34, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

:Maybe it should say: "almos all countries in Latin America". --[[User:Marianocecowski|Marianocecowski]] 11:25, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

== why the language hieararchy is going down to right? ==

i dont understand the idea about the language hierarchy goes down while veering off to right denoting the standar level of linguistic classification. so wheres the people can understand that curiousities? [[Special:Contributions/182.253.54.75|182.253.54.75]] ([[User talk:182.253.54.75|talk]]) 08:15, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

That is still too much considering the size and population of Brazil. The problem is "almost all countries or all in Latin America" is quite misleading because then it sounds as if the region was overwhelmingly Spanish speaking and, distorts the fact that Brazil is home to more than a third of all Latin Americans and about half of South America's land area. Haiti like Brazil is also Latin America and non-Spanish speaking but unlike Brazil, Haiti is a small country with a small population. If Haiti were the only non-Spanish speaking state in the region I would say "almost all countries" is okay. Brazil is only one country but home to huge percent of the region's people. Any statement with all or almost all is misleading in this subject because it basically classifies Latin America as a overwhelmingly Spanish-speaking region, which it isn't. --[[User:212.82.166.162|212.82.166.162]] 15:50, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)Harold

:It's a branch of a tree, like the one at [[Italic languages#Classification]], just a single branch. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 10:22, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

== Scope of speakership ==

:That's why in Spanish there is a distinction between ''Hispanoamérica'' (all Spanish speaking countries in the continent), ''Iberoamérica'' (ditto plus Brazil) and ''Latinoamérica'' (to make room for [[Haiti]] and [[French Guiana]]]. [[User:Ejrrjs|Ejrrjs]] | [[User talk:Ejrrjs|What?]] 19:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[[User:Salvabl]], in again restoring the text {{tq|Spanish is spoken across all consonants}}, gives the rationale {{tq|Spanish, like French, is spoken across all continents. However, the sentence that the user Largoplazo is defending is objectively false, since Spanish is an official language in Europe, the Americas, Oceania and Africa}}.

== second most popular language? ==

Spanish is not a language of anywhere in Oceania, unless one counts the trivial case of Easter Island, but Oceania isn't actually a continent.

Not even close. English is the winner hands down:

Salvabl, for that matter, ignores Antarctica.

http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/languages.htm

Salvabl seems to be misunderstanding the meaning of the word "across". A language spoken by around one-fourth of one percent of the people of Africa in a few spots that are all along the continent's northwest coast is not spoken across Africa. A language spoken by a remnant community in the Philippines is not spoken across Asia.

As far as influence and importance goes, again, not even close:

The text I'm objecting to conveys the impression that Spanish is spoken in appreciable numbers in locations ranging from Cairo to Cape Town, from Beirut to Beijing, from Perth to Pohnpei, from Madrid to Moscow. That impression is false. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 18:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

http://anthro.palomar.edu/language/language_1.htm

:Spanish is one of the languages of Oceania, since it is an official language on [[Easter Island]]. This is uniform with the information that can be found, for example, in the [[Oceania]] article's infobox. And I think that labeling it as "trivial" is just subjective pov. What is the reason for that? its size? Would it be appropriate to label the [[Vatican City|Vatican City State]] as "trivial"?

Value as a language in the modern era:

:Apart from that, you have stated that "Oceania isn't actually a continent". I know that the way to distinguish/count the continents varies, but if you consider that the continent is Australia (and not Oceania), then.. in which continent are the [[Pitcairn Islands]] located?

:And regarding the meaning of the word "across", no misunderstanding will occur, as the context provides enough information. It is as if we read the sentence "''There are approximately 3,500 species of snake spread across all continents''". It is correct, but it does not imply that there are snakes on the island of Ireland, in the Svalbard archipelago or on the vast frozen plains of northern Canada (but on the continents on which they are located).

:The sentence is about the continents where Spanish is spoken, not where it is official, and this should not be changed if consensus is not reached. But in this case, the main reason why I object the change is because it is not accurate, due to the different ways of distinguishing/counting continents, as well as for ignoring the Easter Island, which breaks the uniformity of information with several Wikipedia articles such as [[Polynesia]] (where Spanish, just like French, is one of the languages included in the first footnote of the article), [[Oceania]], etc. [[User:Salvabl|Salvabl]] ([[User talk:Salvabl|talk]]) 11:47, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

::The Pacific Islands aren't located on any continent. Continents and countries have nothing to do with each other. A continent is a geological feature. Countries are political entities that occupy space. A country can be entirely within one continent, be split over multiple continents, or not occupy space on any continent at all. Oceania is a conventional grouping in the same way as a couple of its parts are, like Polynesia and Micronesia, or in the same way as the West Indies.

::As for "across", it doesn't make sense to say that something that's false should be in the article as long as the true information that makes its falsehood plain comes later. In your snake example, "across" is appropriate. It indicates that, ''despite'' exceptions, snakes are found in most areas. If, out of all of Europe, there were snakes ''only'' in the Alps, then to say they are found "across" Europe would be false. In Asia, Oceania, Africa, and Europe, the places where Spanish is spoken ''are'' the exceptions. Saying that Spanish is spoken "across Asia" because a small community in the Philippines speaks it it isn't at all like the snake example, it's nonsense. "Across" doesn't mean whatever you want it to mean. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 13:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

:::Whether or not Oceania is a real continent doesn't matter - Spanish is in fact spoken (non-trivially/by significant numbers) on at least some portion of every other continent.

:::Even if we decide against saying that Spanish is spoken on every continent in the lede, we should still avoid counting continents. In some areas it's conventional to consider the Americas a single continent, in others they're two different continents, this article's lede doesn't need to take a side.

:::I think [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] might be right to object to the word "across" (although the same wording is also found on [[French language]]) {{endash}} there shouldn't be any problems with replacing it with something like "on", right? [[User:Erinius|Erinius]] ([[User talk:Erinius|talk]]) 09:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

:Also, seeing as this dispute is basically about how to quickly go over the geographical extension of Spanish, I thought I'd see how some other sources do this. This is basically a list of convenience, from whatever sources I had on hand.

:* "{{main other|{{error|This template should not be used in mainspace}}|{{#switch:<!--

-->|h|horizontal|ldots=…<!--

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-->|mh|midline horizontal|cdots=⋯<!--

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-->|dr|down-right diagonal|ddots=⋱<!--

-->|laotian=ຯ<!--

-->|mongolian=᠁<!--

-->|thai=ฯ<!--

-->|#default=...}}}}there are more than 400 million native or near-native speakers of Spanish in the world, distributed across every continent except Antarctica. Spanish is the official language in twenty-one countries plus Puerto Rico; is the de facto first language for most of Gibraltar (Fierro Cubiella 1997; Kramer 1986); still maintains a small foothold in the Philippines{{main other|{{error|This template should not be used in mainspace}}|{{#switch:<!--

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-->|laotian=ຯ<!--

-->|mongolian=᠁<!--

-->|thai=ฯ<!--

-->|#default=...}}}}" John Lipski, "Geographical and Social Varieties of Spanish: An Overview", in ''The Handbook of Hispanic Linguistics''

:* "Spanish is spoken in Europe, Latin America, certain areas of Africa, the United States, and to some extent in the Philippines." Manuel Díaz-Campos' introduction to the ''Handbook of Hispanic Sociolinguistics''

:* "Spanish is a world-wide international language spoken on four continents and is established as the official language in 22 countries: Spain; Mexico, {{main other|{{error|This template should not be used in mainspace}}|{{#switch:<!--

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-->|laotian=ຯ<!--

-->|mongolian=᠁<!--

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-->|#default=...}}}} and Panama (Latin America); Equatorial Guinea (west Africa); and the Philippines (south-east Asia)" - Elena Fernández de Molina Ortés and Juan M. Hernández-Campoy, "Geographic Varieties of Spanish", ''The Cambridge Handbook of Spanish Linguistics''

:* "It is an official language in Spain, nineteen Latin American republics and Puerto Rico (see Map 22.2), as well as Equatorial Guinea in Africa. There is residual use in the Philippines and frequent use in many parts of the USA{{main other|{{error|This template should not be used in mainspace}}|{{#switch:<!--

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-->|laotian=ຯ<!--

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-->|#default=...}}}}" - Tuten, Pato and Schwarzwald, "Spanish, Astur-Leonese, Navarro-Aragonese, Judaeo-Spanish", in ''The Oxford Guide to the Romance Linguistics''

:* "Spanish has today become a world language with more than 350 million speakers who are concentrated in Spain and the Americas, but who are also to be found in Africa and Asia" - Ralph Penny's ''A History of the Spanish Language'', 2nd edition, Introduction chapter

:[[User:Erinius|Erinius]] ([[User talk:Erinius|talk]]) 04:27, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

::Thank you very much for providing such valuable information.

::Apart from the problem caused by the different ways of distinguishing/counting continents, that make the number variable.. even if the continents where Spanish is an official language were listed one by one, there would still be a part of [[Chile]] (the [[Easter Island]]) that would not be covered in the list, and where Spanish is an official language.

::But, apart from that, there is no need to further complicate this, since at no time has there been a consensus for the initial sentence of the fourth paragraph to address the continents where there are countries in which Spanish is an official language. The sentence is about where the Spanish language is spoken, not about where it is official.

::However, I consider appropriate the suggestion made by @[[User:Erinius|Erinius]] to replace the word "across" with "on", since reducing a possible ambiguity always improves the article. [[User:Salvabl|Salvabl]] ([[User talk:Salvabl|talk]]) 02:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

:::I'm glad we could reach a consensus on "on". {{Re|Largoplazo}} do we also have a consensus on not counting/numbering continents? [[User:Erinius|Erinius]] ([[User talk:Erinius|talk]]) 18:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

::::It isn't spoken in Australia. There's no sense in having the article say something that will strike many readers as false outright, in the vain expectation that they'll come here and find this special pleading for the fringe convention of treating Oceania as a continent while pretending Australia isn't one, and that they'll buy into it. And all because one person wants to make this superlative claim about the speakership of the language despite the reality that it falls short, even if just by a little bit. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 20:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

:::::Yes, "Spanish is spoken on all continents" is either false by the usual (anglosphere, at least) listing of continents or it's vacuous (sure, there are some Australians who can and do speak Spanish when Down Under, and at any time there are bound to be some folks in Antarctica who speak Spanish). The statement is puffery, reads like PR promo. [[User:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]] ([[User talk:Barefoot through the chollas|talk]]) 21:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

::::::I was actually willing to concede Antartica (for "on", not "across"), insofar as Argentina and Chile claim chunks of it and, more to the point, have resident populations there, including families and schools. But I can understand if others are reluctant. Your last sentence is what I was driving at; I agree. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 00:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

:::::::Right. And the question about the Chilean and Argentine populations is how permanent the residents are. Supposedly there have been only 11 people born in Antarctica, suggesting a) that families don't stay long, b) there's little -- more likely no -- native population. Unsurprisingly, populations greatly reduce during the winter. I suppose the issue turns on what the definition of "Spoken on continent X" is meant to be. It's easy (and facile) to engineer it to include or exclude Spanish on Antarctica. Native American code talkers served in the Pacific, North African, and European theaters in WW2, and no doubt chatted amongst themselves. Was e.g. Navajo spoken in/on [overseas ___location]? [[User:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]] ([[User talk:Barefoot through the chollas|talk]]) 18:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

:::''"Spoken on all continents"'' is not real information, it is rather a slogan for some sort of ''linguistic jingoism''. --[[User:Jotamar|Jotamar]] ([[User talk:Jotamar|talk]]) 23:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

::::{{Re|Largoplazo}} Good point on Australia – I hadn't really thought too hard about considering it as a continent.

::::I guess the current claim does seem like puffery and should probably be removed – also, it's not like "nationsonline.com" is the best source to use, nor does it support the "all continents" claim anyway. Do we want to keep some kind of brief overview of Spanish's geographic distribution in the lede? It already mentions Spanish originating in Spain and then being introduced "to overseas locations, most notably to the Americas". Is that enough? [[User:Erinius|Erinius]] ([[User talk:Erinius|talk]]) 03:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

:::::The easiest solution might be to just remove "Spanish is spoken on all continents" and move what would then be a stranded footnote up into the appropriate spot in the first paragraph. [[User:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]] ([[User talk:Barefoot through the chollas|talk]]) 05:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

::::::Sounds good to me. [[User:Erinius|Erinius]] ([[User talk:Erinius|talk]]) 20:39, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

:::::::Where do we stand as of now? {{Re|Salvabl}} I'm good with [[U:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]]' suggestion, and I imagine everyone else who commented here would be. There's no longer any consensus in favor of keeping "spoken on all continents" it seems. What do you think? [[User:Erinius|Erinius]] ([[User talk:Erinius|talk]]) 01:43, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

::::::::As you says, consensus is against Salvabl's position, and that's all that's required to proceed. Let's remove the sentence, and I'm fine with Chollas' specific recommendation. [[User:Barefoot through the chollas]], do you want to do the honors, finding a suitable spot for the footnote? [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 02:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::Done. Deleted the continents bit, and moved the note to the end of the sentence beginning ''Spanish is the official language of''. If anyone has a better place for it, by all means feel free to adjust. (Separately, I executed what might pass superficially as a stylistic tweak: vocabulary ''derived from Latin'' to ''Latin in origin''. If anyone disagrees, we can discuss it and find better wording; I'm aware that ''in origin'' can be as misleading as ''derived from''.) [[User:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]] ([[User talk:Barefoot through the chollas|talk]]) 16:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::If there is sufficient common consensus to reduce any possible ambiguity or inaccuracy, then such a change should be implemented. I have no problem with that. The point is that I considered the existence of different ways of distinguishing/counting [[continent]]s sufficient reason to keep the disputed statement, taking into account the notion of [[Oceania]] as a continent (which, although not common, also exists in the English-speaking world).

:::::::::In any case, this criteria shall then be taken into account also for other articles of languages that can be regarded as global (similar wording can be found on the article of [[French language]]), in order to avoid any possible bias; since it would not make sense that a change implemented in order to make this article's content more accurate, could result in a biased lack of uniformity of criteria.

:::::::::I am going to add a link to this discussion in the [[French language]] article (in a edit summary), as it is necessary to remove the analogous statement in that article, since French language is not spoken on the [[Australia (continent)|Australian continent]]. [[User:Salvabl|Salvabl]] ([[User talk:Salvabl|talk]]) 02:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

== American centric ==

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JohnnyLing.shtml

This article seems very American centric, ignoring the language’s actual origin. Furthermore it also seems to be USA centric, with it’s description often longer than any other nation despite not even having spanish as the first official language [[User:DirkjanenBert|DirkjanenBert]] ([[User talk:DirkjanenBert|talk]]) 20:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Spanish has fewer then 100,000 words, a large number of which can be said to have been borrowed from English.

:Given that approximately 90% of Spanish speakers are in the Americas, a concentration on Spanish in the Americas is to be expected, regardless of its origin in Spain. As for being US-centric, I haven't done my own assessment but if it is, then you make a good point. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 13:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

This is supposed to be an Encyclopedia, not a forum for pushing political agendas.

:Read your own sources, to start with. [[User:Ejrrjs|Ejrrjs]] | [[User talk:Ejrrjs|What?]] 20:53, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

:Chinese is also more popular than Spanish.--[[User:Jondel|Jondel]] 02:08, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

== States listingSpanish in thePhilippines Infobox ==

Given that Spanish holds constitutional recognition in the Philippines, it would be appropriate to reflect this in the Quick Facts dropdown. I suggest creating a new category within the infobox to properly display this information. A similar approach has already been taken on the Arabic language Wikipedia page, as Arabic also enjoys constitutional recognition in the Philippines.

from [[User:Marianocecowski|Marianocecowski]] :

On another note, considering the unique role and constitutional recognition of Spanish in the Philippines, it may be worth reflecting this on the language map. While it shouldn’t be shaded the same as countries where Spanish is currently official, perhaps a distinct color or pattern (e.g., stripes) could be used to denote its significance. [[User:Alexigj|Alexigj]] ([[User talk:Alexigj|talk]]) 23:19, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

This has been a subject of many edits lately, and maybe it would be wiser to discuss it here.

The different views seam to be the following (please add any needed):

'''Spoken in:'''

*'''A''' - By number of native speakers (Mexico, Colombia, Spain, Argentina, USA, and dozens of...)

*'''B''' - By ''"importance"'' of the country's language influence (Spain, Mexico, Argentina, Colombia, USA, and dozens of...)

*'''C''' - By minimalistic geografic coverage (Spain, Latin-America , USA, and dozens of...)

*'''D''' - By relevance to English speakers (this is, after all, en:WP): (Spain, Mexico, Argentina, etc., ''see [[Spanish_language#Geographic_distribution|distribution]]'')

===Votes===

*'''Option B''':

#I think Spain should be in front. Maybe even remove USA, or replace it with Peru--[[User:Marianocecowski|Marianocecowski]] 11:25, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

# Spain first (obviously), then the next three by number of speakers. &mdash; [[User:Chameleon|''Chameleon'']] 12:21, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

#Spain first, then the next four by number of speakers. Include USA as non-trivial trivia. [[User:Ejrrjs|Ejrrjs]] | [[User talk:Ejrrjs|What?]] 21:42, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

#Spain first, then the next four by number of speakers, making sure it is KEPT LIKE THAT! '''[[User:Al-Andalus|Al-Andalus]] 16:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)'''.

*'''Option D''':

#The distribution is discussed at length in the article itself, and if people really want a detailed list, that's where they're going to go anyways. The language table is meant to be a quick guide, not an article of its own accord. [[User:TShilo12|Tomer]] ^{<font size=-1 color=129DBC>[[User talk:TShilo12|TALK]]</font>} 07:12, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

===Comments===

*The push to include the USA in the list seems to me to be POV-pushing. While it's true that there are a significant number of hispanoparlantes in the EEUU, its influence pales in comparison to [[English language|English]], which is actually a historically important language in [[Honduras]], [[Nicaragua]] and [[Panamá]] (eventhough none of these countries are even mentioned at [[English_language#Geographic_distribution]], and is culturally influential (moreso than Spanish in the US) throughout hispanoamerica, yet you'll notice that there is no big push to include any of those countries in the list of English speaking countries. That said, importance-wise, Spanish is clearly ''far'' more important in Venezuela or even Paraguay than in the US. The argument might be made that "well, English-speakers don't feel as oppressed" or whatever, but this is WP, not a clearinghouse for gripes. [[User:TShilo12|Tomer]] ^{<font size=-1 color=129DBC>[[User talk:TShilo12|TALK]]</font>} 07:21, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

*[[User:TShilo12|Tomer]]: I agree with you, as I expressed it voting for '''B''' removing USA. Problem is that some poeple just undo edits without cheking the discussion pages. Even though little poeple voted, I think we have some consent on the ordering. The question of leaving USA out or not is, still to be resolved. We should wait a bit longer to decide on this, OK? Thanks, [[User:Marianocecowski|Mariano]] 11:40, 2005 Jun 13 (UTC)

*The reason I initially pushed for a list of the top 5 countries in numeric order, followed by a general comment, was that people made the exact same changes proposed by [[User:Marianocecowski|Mariano]]; "'''''Maybe even remove USA, or replace it with Peru.'''''" That thinking of giving priority to one country because it has Spanish as an official language, in this case Peru, over another that doesn't but which happens to have more speakers than the first country, in this case the USA, is what initially caused the category box to be longer than the article itself; and in an order changed by the nationality of every new wikipedian modifying the list. This is especially true for Peru (which has Spanish as one of three official languages, with Quechua and Aymara), where despite Spanish being an official language, a great proportion of the population are Amerindian-speakers. That's when we had small population countries like Bolivia before large countries like Colombia, Cuba before Chile, Peru before Argentina, Costa Rica before Ecuador, and even the Philippines (with 3,000 Spanish-speakers amidst 107 million Austronesian-speaking Filipinos) but no mention of Belize or the USA (c. 30 million Spanish-speakers.) '''[[User:Al-Andalus|Al-Andalus]] 16:38, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)'''.

*On a related note, may I mention that on the [[English language]] article, the "Spoken in" category is in the current format used on this article ("Option A"), that is by number of native speakers; United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and others. Notice United States is placed before United Kingdom because of numeric supremacy, the same format is currently used here, but the change wants to be made to "Option B" to place Spain first, and THEN the next four in numeric order. If the change is made to "Option B" (which I support, as long as it is maintained) then I would encourage the same changes to be made to the English language article. '''[[User:Al-Andalus|Al-Andalus]] 16:38, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)'''.

*I don't think the number of speakers is so important. Otherwise we would put [[Colombia]] before [[Spain]]. If you'd like to compare this article to its English counterpart, please note that it's short list does not include [[India]], where English is an official language, and a lot of people speaks it. I Consider the worldwide cultural influence of the country regarding the Spanish language. Therefore (and even I'm not Peruvian) I consider Peru to be culturally far more important in the Spanish speaking world since it gave the world writers such as [[Mario Vargas Llosa]]. But I wouldn't '''force''' Peru to the list, I just think that USA shouldn't be in the short list, because it's culturally not important to the Spanish language. [[User:Marianocecowski|Mariano]] 08:03, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)

::As a citizen of a country outside of the Americas, I would counter your argument that the United States is not culturally important to the Spanish language, and its diffusion around the world (at least as it perceived by the citizens of the world).

::I can almost guarantee you that the countries responsible for pushing the greatest influence in the spread (conscious or not) of the Spanish language towards the rest of the world are; Spain, Mexico, Argentina, Chile '''AND''' the United States of America.

::The inclusion of four of these countries (Spain, Mexico, Argentina, Chile) is based largely on the great number of well-known literary contributions to the world in that language, more so than any other Spanish-speaking country. Added to this is the fact that three of those countries (Spain, Mexico, Argentina) also contribute largely to international cinema, viewed and associated with the Spanish language by millions of non-Spanish speakers. Finally, in the modern globolised world that we live in, the most important and consciously significant medium by which Spanish is diffused today (purposefully or not) is by [[television]].

::The contributions made by the medium of television (which has been primarily important across the English-speaking world) is arguably the greatest and most important that the Spanish language has ever had in its linguistic and cultural diffusion, as recognised by your average citizen of the world. The large Hispanic population of the US (the largest minority) has consequently lead to the inclusion of their ethnicity, culture and language in the plots, characters and discourse in the vast majority of programming. As such, after English, Spanish is a language commonly associated (by non-American English-speakers) with the United States. This should be no surprise. In an English-speaking country (Australia as an example) television content can be well over 70% American produced, and most Spanish is introduced via this medium. Programmes such as CSI, NYPD, Desperate Housewives, Oprah, flood television viewing time slots, which is why Australian broadcasting laws dictate at least 25%[?] of content be Australian produced.

::As a matter of fact, if you were to ask a person at random the following question ''What countries would you associate the Spanish language with?'', in an Australian reply most would answer Spain (for obvious reason), then Chile and Argentina (these two constitute most of Australia's Hispanic population) and '''THEN''' the United States of America before any other country. This very inclusion of the USA before another Spanish-speaking country is because of the role television plays in the modern world and its perceptions. As already stated, television programming for the English-speaking world comes largely from the USA. Most references to "Hispanic culture" and the greatest exposure and awareness to Spanish (in words, phrases, etc. used by Hispanic characters on US programmes) comes from American produced television, which highly influences the association of that language with the contemporary United States.

::Your average non-American in an English-speaking country (unfortunately quite ignorant to extra-cultural knowledge) would be hard pressed to know places by the names of Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay, Nicaragua or Honduras even exist, nor would they know what languages are spoken there, and much less would they associate these countries with the Spanish language. But they would definitely know the United States, they would also know that the largest proportion of Americans after "non-Hispanic Whites" are Hispanics (as seen and taught by TV) and that the language spoken by Hispanics is Spanish, thus associating the USA with Spanish. '''[[User:Al-Andalus|Al-Andalus]] 04:05, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)'''.