Wikipedia:Templates for discussion: Difference between revisions

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Latest revision as of 16:41, 24 August 2025

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{{Short description|Page for discussing mergers and deletions of templates}}

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{{Redirect|WP:TFD|the page used for TimedText or talk page deletion discussions|Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion|a list of templates used for discussion|Wikipedia:List of discussion templates}}

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| text = {{hlist|''[[#toc|Skip to table of contents]]''|''[[#Current discussions|Skip to current discussions]]''|''{{Purge|Purge this page}}''}}<inputbox>

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prefix=Wikipedia:Templates for d

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placeholder=Enter &#x5b;&#x5b;Template:Example&#x5d;&#x5d; to find a discussion

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{{Deletion debates}}

On this page, the deletion or merging of '''[[Help:Template|templates]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Lua|modules]]''', with a few [[#What not to propose for discussion here|exceptions]], is discussed.

== Listings ==

{{sfd-currentTOC limit|3}}

Please put new listings under [[#{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}|today's date]] at the '''''top of the section'''''.

==How to use this page==

===June 22===

===<span id="NOT"></span> What ''not'' to propose for discussion here===

====[[Template:Transwiki]]====

{{shortcut|WP:TFD#NOT}}

This template is unused, since it is redundant with {{tl|move to Wiktionary}}, {{tl|move to Wikisource}}, etc. It was only used on a few old pages specifying other projects, so I've cleaned out the category ([[:Category:Wikipedia articles to be transwikied]]) using the specific templates. This is unnecessary and creates more work. --[[User:Dmcdevit|Dmcdevit]] 21:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The majority of deletion and merger proposals concerning pages in the [[WP:Template namespace|template namespace]] and [[WP:Lua|module namespace]] should be listed on this page. However, there are a few exceptions:

; Stub templates

====[[Template:TOCembed]]====

: Stub templates and categories should be listed at [[WP:CFD|Categories for discussion]], as these templates are merely containers for their categories, ''unless'' the stub template does not come with a category and is being nominated by itself.

; Userboxes

: Userboxes should be listed at [[WP:MFD|Miscellany for deletion]], regardless of the namespace in which they reside.

; Speedy deletion candidates

: If the template clearly satisfies a [[WP:CSD|criterion for speedy deletion]], tag it with a [[:Category:Speedy deletion templates|speedy deletion template]]. For example, if you wrote the template and request its deletion, tag it with {{t|Db-author}}. See also [[WP:T5]].

; Policy or guideline templates

: Templates that are associated with particular [[WP:PAG|Wikipedia policies or guidelines]], such as the [[:Category:Speedy deletion templates|speedy deletion templates]], cannot be listed at TfD separately. They should be discussed on the talk page of the relevant guideline.

; Template redirects

: List all redirects at [[WP:RFD|Redirects for discussion]].

; Moving and renaming a template

: Use [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|Requested moves]].

===<span class="anchor" id="REASONS"></span> Reasons to delete a template===

This produces a horrible-looking TOC on the left-hand side of the page. All pages ought to follow the same format, but this ruins the look of about 4 articles. [[User:Duncharris|Dunc]]|[[User talk:duncharris|&#9786;]] 16:09, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

{{shortcut|WP:TFD#REASONS}}

* '''Delete unless''' somebody can come up with a better format. The left-floating box isn't nice. [[User:Steinsky|Joe D]] [[User talk:Steinsky|(t)]] 16:30, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

# The template violates some part of the [[WP:TMP|template namespace guidelines]], and can't be altered to be in compliance.

*'''Keep''' The discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:Section]] convinces me that thsi is a good ides in some cases. When the TOC is long, the default format introduces a lot of undesireable whitespace. Short TOCs, Wide TODs and Long but not Wide TOCs should not be handled in the same way. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] 17:33, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

# The template is redundant to a better-designed template.

*'''Keep''', unless a viable alternative is offered. I used this template to diffuse [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Intelligent_design#false_claims_of_vandalism an Anon user who was starting to crossover to a vandal]. He raised the valid point that the brief intro to the article, followed by a lengthy ToC, pushed needed mention of criticisms "below the fold" of the front page. It ain't pretty, but it works.--[[User:A ghost|ghost]] 17:42, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

# The template is not used, either directly or by [[WP:SUBST|template substitution]] (the latter cannot be concluded from the absence of backlinks), {{Strong|and has no likelihood of {{em|being}} used}}.

**'''Comment'''. The [[intelligent design]] article is quite a mess as I view it. Section 1 (ID in summary) is squeezed in a narrow right margin with a "Creationism" template sitting on top of it, making it impossible for me to read it.--[[User:Nabla|Nabla]] 04:34, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

# The template violates a policy such as [[WP:NPOV|Neutral point of view]] or [[WP:CIVIL|Civility]] and it can't be fixed through normal editing.

Templates should not be nominated if the issue can be fixed by normal editing. Instead, you should edit the template to fix its problems. If the template is complex and you don't know how to fix it, [[WP:WPT|WikiProject Templates]] may be able to help.

====[[Template:Spoiler-about]]====

I understand the need of [[Template:Spoiler-other]] below, but this one claims that "the article contains spoilers about its subject" and is therefore redundant with the more vanilla [[Template:Spoiler]]. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 08:34, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*<s>'''Delete''' per Radiant. This template is redundant. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|^(talk)]] 09:34, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)</s>

*'''Provisional delete''', [[Template:Spoiler-about]] and [[Template:Spoiler-other]] are redundant with each other. We don't need two templates to describe what spoilers it contains. At the moment I think Spoiler-other is more useful. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|^(talk)]] 12:12, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

::Firstly, I sincerely appreciate your willingness to reassess the template. I personally favor retaining both {{tl|Spoiler-about}} and {{tl|Spoiler-other}}, but if we were to keep only one, it should be {{tl|Spoiler-about}}. It contains less information (rendering it less useful in situations to which {{tl|Spoiler-other}} applies), but the information that it ''does'' contain is applicable. Conversely, {{tl|Spoiler-other}} contains additional information that renders it inapplicable to any situation in which the spoiler warning doesn't pertain to the article's title (as demonstrated below). &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' not necessary. Redirect back to [[template:spoiler]]. [[User:Duncharris|Dunc]]|[[User talk:duncharris|&#9786;]] 09:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. You appear to have misunderstood the nature of the template, because it does ''not'' claim that "the article contains spoilers about its subject" (unless someone decides to utilize it in this manner, which isn't its intended application). The "subject" to which I refer in my example is that of the spoiler, ''not'' the title of the article. This is potentially useful in two types of situation that I've observed.

::1. An article or section can contain spoilers pertaining to a topic that while not unrelated, is not explicitly contained within the title. For example, an actor's/director's/producer's article (or a section thereof) might mention key plot details of one or more theatrical/television productions. The message might read: <div class="notice metadata" id="spoiler">'''[[Wikipedia:Spoiler warning|Spoiler warning]]: ''This article or section contains plot/ending details of "Movie X" and "Movie Y."'''''</div>

::2. A particular section can contain spoilers for a specific area of the article's subject, such as a television season. (This is especially significant when a current television series is further along in some countries than in others.) The message might read: <div class="notice metadata" id="spoiler">'''[[Wikipedia:Spoiler warning|Spoiler warning]]: ''This article or section contains plot/ending details of season 3.'''''</div>

:And once again, the [[Wikipedia:Spoiler_warning|spoiler warning]] page has encouraged the creation of custom spoiler warnings for almost a year. If you disagree with this guideline, you should propose its abolishment (as opposed to the abolishment of templates created in accordance with said guideline). And of course, in authoring this template and {{tl|Spoiler-other}}, I seek to reduce or eliminate the need for further custom spoiler templates. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 09:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Well, in that case it's redundant with the more generic [[Template:Spoiler-about]]. I wholeheartedly agree with reducing the need for custom spoiler templates, and like I said I find spoiler-about very useful, but I can't see this one as anything else than redundant. As a side point, [[WP:SW]] claims you should design your own ''If these general purpose [[Wikipedia:Template messages|template]]s are not suitable for the particular article you are working on''. And what we're debating here is precisely that issue - whether or not the general templates are suitable. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 10:09, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

:::Fair enough, but I obviously disagree with your assessment. The {{tl|Spoiler-other}} template (which I assume you meant to reference above) is far ''less'' generic than {{tl|Spoiler-about}}, because the former specifies that the article contains spoilers pertaining to its title. Applying {{tl|Spoiler-other}} to the two examples cited above, you'll see that it's entirely inappropriate:

::::<div class="notice metadata" id="spoiler">'''[[Wikipedia:Spoiler warning|Spoiler warning]]: ''In addition to George Lucas, this article contains plot/ending details of [[THX 1138]] and [[American Graffiti]].'''''</div>

::::The article ''doesn't'' contain spoilers about George Lucas.

::::<div class="notice metadata" id="spoiler">'''[[Wikipedia:Spoiler warning|Spoiler warning]]: ''In addition to The X-Files, this article contains plot/ending details of season 3.'''''</div>

::::Season 3 is ''part'' of the series, ''not'' an additional entity.

:::Do you see how the templates have disparate applications? &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 10:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Strong keep''', unless somebody's changed the template, it '''doesn't''' say that it contains spoilers about its subject, but rather has a parameter where you can put what the spoiler is. I can definitely see this being useful in some places. For example, in an article about a director, I may want to talk about one of his movies. This template would allow me to specify which movie I'm going to discuss, while at the same time making it clear that I'm not going to "spoil" something about the director himself (okay, not a good example, but I'm sure you get my point). This template allows people to be more specific, and is definitely not redundant. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 11:26, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::You described my intended application perfectly. With no offense intended toward anyone, it's only fair to analyze a template's basic structure before proposing its deletion. With an accurate understanding of {{tl|Spoiler-about}}, [[User:Radiant!|Radiant]] might still have nominated it for deletion, but wouldn't have misled others into believing that it was set up in a totally different format than it actually is. (I would appreciate if you'd strike your original description, [[User:Radiant!|Radiant]].) &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:24, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*Is there any reason to not clearup this confusion and merge the lot of them into a single template '''This article contains plot details or ending details about //fill in the blank//'''? People are likely to use the wrong template if there are three or more. {{tl|sofixit}}. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 11:43, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

::Yes, there ''is'' a reason to have separate templates: '''they serve different purposes.''' There isn't always a need to specify the nature of a spoiler, but sometimes there is. Why are you so eager to lump these situations together? I believe that the [[Wikipedia:Spoiler_warning|spoiler template selection instructions]] (which are linked from the three spoiler templates in question) are clear, but you're welcome to improve them. We shouldn't weaken the encyclopedia's content simply to make things marginally easier for a few people. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:24, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Strong Keep''' If we had to retain only one of the three spoiler templates, it should probably be this one, or a slight modification of this one (to make the argument optional). However i think that retaining all three ([[Template:Spoiler]], [[Template:Spoiler-other]], and [[Template:Spoiler-about]]) is the better course -- they are useful in different circumstances. Spoiler is good for the most common case, when the spoiler is about the subject of the article and no other info is needed. Spoiler-about is useful when the spoiler is about something other than (or not exactly the same as) the article subject or when it is about multiple subjects. Spoiler-other is useful when the spoiler deals with both the article subject and another subject. By they way, the use of one or another of these templates ought to repace any more specific custom spoiler warning, such as the spoiler-whedon or any specialized ones for other fictional universes. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] 14:34, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Thank you! You did a much better job of summarizing the templates' intended applications than I've been able to. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 14:47, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - We only need one simple spoiler notice. Why make things complicated? -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 16:13, 2005 Jun 22 (UTC)

::Did you read the discussion? Is this vote based upon your opinion (implied elsewhere) that we shouldn't even be wasting our "effort" on spoiler warnings? &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 16:36, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' [[User:Cburnett|Cburnett]] 22:38, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''': as useful as, or more useful than, [[Template:Spoiler-other]]. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 23:01, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Templates for which none of these apply may be deleted by [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] here. If a template is being misused, consider clarifying its documentation to indicate the correct use, or informing those that misuse it, rather than nominating it for deletion. Initiate a discussion on the template talk page if the correct use itself is under debate.

==== [[Template:BJAODN]]====

'''Support''': Articles are voted into [[BJAODN]] by vfd, not "candidates for BJAODN"[[User:Y0u|You]] [[User talk:Y0u|(Talk)]] 01:00, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', if a speedy is BJAODN-worthy, just add it in yourself. We don't need another layer of bureaucracy for this. BJAODN is informal enough to just let people put stuff in themselves. Besides, BJAODN shouldn't be seen as a place where articles are ''moved'', it's more of an archive of deleted content. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 01:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''': This is merely another version of CSD similar to the <nowiki>{{nonsense}}</nowiki> tag. The "BJAODN" notice is a nonbinding recommendation to place it in BJAODN before speedily deleting.[[User:24.54.208.177|24.54.208.177]] 01:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. As one of the people who handle CSD, the less templates adding to the category, the better. Only {{tl|nonsense}} and {{tl|deleteagain}} are useful as extra templates, since they are very common; the rest can get {{tl|deletebecause}}. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 01:25, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[m:instruction creep|Instruction creep]]. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 02:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' per anon. Who says you need to act on it? - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|^(talk)]] 09:36, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', nonsense. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 10:10, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Extreme Delete'''. If the article meets the speedy delete criteria, but is funny enough to also copy to [[WP:BJAODN]], then the person should go ahead and copy it, rather than being lazy and leaving the task to someone else. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 13:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', BJAODN it yourself if you must. --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]]) 01:19, 2005 Jun 22 (UTC) <small>(vote restored after I deleted it myself by accident) --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]])<small>

===JuneListing 21a template===

{{shortcut|WP:TFDHOWTO|WP:TFDHOW}}

====[[Template:notdeletebecause]]====

{{Strong|To list a template for deletion or merging, follow the three-step process below.}} Do {{em|not}} include the "Template:" prefix in any of the steps.

Nonsense. --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]]) 23:24, 2005 Jun 21 (UTC)

*That's the point. Besides, if you guys delete this template, would you mind copying the exact wording and pasting it in all spaces where the template currently appears? Thanks. [[User:Rickyrab|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:Rickyrab|Rickyrab]] | [[User talk:Rickyrab|Talk]] 23:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**''You'' can go ahead and do that using <tt><nowiki>subst:</nowiki></tt>, since the only other place this seems to appear is your userpage. <font color=#00A86B>[[User:Android79|<small>A</small>&#1080;<small>D</small>&#1103;<small>01D</small>]]</font><font color=#B87333>[[User talk:Android79|<small>TALK</small>]]</font><font color=#0047AB>[[Special:Emailuser/Android79|<small>EMAIL</small>]]</font> 00:10, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Pointless. <font color=#00A86B>[[User:Android79|<small>A</small>&#1080;<small>D</small>&#1103;<small>01D</small>]]</font><font color=#B87333>[[User talk:Android79|<small>TALK</small>]]</font><font color=#0047AB>[[Special:Emailuser/Android79|<small>EMAIL</small>]]</font> 00:10, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Userfy & delete''', or subst it depending on what the creator prefers. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 01:05, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Speedy delete''' as it degrades into nonsense. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 02:58, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Subst: and delete''', and if [[User:Rickyrab|Rickyrab]] wants it as a subpage, then also '''userfy''' it. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 13:38, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Speedy Delete''' Utter nonsense --[[User:Michael180|michael180]] 14:07, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Speedy delete'''. Heavy-handed failure to be funny. [[User:Mel Etitis|Mel Etitis]] ([[User talk:Mel Etitis|<font color="green">&Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf;</font>)]] 14:36, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If you have never nominated a template for deletion or used [[WP:Twinkle|Twinkle]] before, you might want to do it manually to avoid making mistakes. For more experienced editors, using Twinkle is recommended, as it automates some of these steps. (After navigating to the template you want to nominate, click its dropdown menu in the top right of the page: TW [[File:OOjs UI icon caretDown.svg|15px|link=]], and then select "XFD".)

====[[Template:Spoiler-other]]====

{| class="wikitable" style="clear: both;"

Please, just one {{tl|Spoiler}} template to rule them all. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 20:58, 2005 Jun 21 (UTC)

|- id="Step I"

! scope="row" style="background-color: #ffff99;" | Step 1

Tag the template

| style="padding: 0.5em;" | '''Paste one of the following notices to the top of the template page:'''

* '''For deletion:''' {{Tlxs|Tfd}}

* For deletion of a sidebar or infobox template: {{Tlxs|Tfd|2=type=sidebar}}

* For deletion of an inline template: {{Tlxs|Tfd|2=type=inline}} and don't add a newline after the notice.

* '''For merging:''' {{Tlxs|Tfm|{{var|{{Gray|name of other template}}}}}}

* For merging an inline template: {{Tlxs|Tfm|2=type=inline|3={{var|{{Gray|name of other template to be merged}}}}}} and don't add a newline after the notice.

* To delete a [[Help:Module|module]] or a different type of template, see {{section link|Template:Template for discussion#Display on articles}}

'''Note:'''

*'''Keep''', obviously. Did you continue reading the [[Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:Whedon-spoiler|Whedon-spoiler]] discussion after casting your vote? The {{tl|Spoiler}} template doesn't allow users to warn readers that an article contains spoilers pertaining to a subject other than the titular one. Furthermore, the [[Wikipedia:Spoiler_warning|spoiler warning]] page (linked to from the {{tl|Spoiler}} template) has contained the following instruction since July 7, 2004: ''"If this general purpose template is not suitable for the particular article you are working on, feel free to custom-design your own warning, but please link back to this page."'' &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 21:35, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* If the template is [[Wikipedia:Page protection|protected]], request that the TfD notice be added on the template's talk page using the {{Tlx|editprotected}} template, to catch the attention of [[Wikipedia:Administrators|administrators]] or [[Wikipedia:Template editors|template editors]].

** Wikipedia already has a [[Wikipedia:Content disclaimer|Content disclaimer]], and we're already doing readers a favor giving a "heads-up" that a '''page''' has spoilers. I doubt seriously that anyone reading a page with spoilers expects the spoilers to relate ''only'' to the page title. Look, if you want to re-write [[Template:Spoiler]], then please propose a wording which covers your concerns, but I think the current text of it is sufficient. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 00:13, 2005 Jun 22 (UTC)

* If the template is designed to be [[WP:SUBST|substituted]], add {{tag|noinclude}} around the TfD notice to prevent it from being substituted alongside the template. Example: <code><nowiki><noinclude></nowiki><nowiki>{{subst:Tfd}}</nowiki><nowiki></noinclude></nowiki></code>

*** Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, but it also is an Internet site. As such, it's our responsibility to maintain the level of etiquette to which Internet users are accustomed. I strongly disagree with your assessment of spoiler warning interpretation; lacking notice to the contrary, I ''would'' expect a spoiler warning to apply strictly to the article's titular subject. And as I mentioned earlier, the [[Wikipedia:Spoiler_warning|spoiler warning]] page has encouraged the creation of custom spoiler warnings for almost a year. If you disagree with this guideline, I suggest that you propose a wording that covers your concerns. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 02:11, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* Use an edit summary like<br /><code>Nominated for deletion/merging; see <nowiki>[[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#</nowiki>Template:{{var|{{Gray|name of template}}}}<nowiki>]]</nowiki></code>

**** I am not saying we should abandon spoiler warnings. I '''am''' saying that we only need one, generic warning to do that task. We don't need anything more complex than the existing warning notice. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 17:34, 2005 Jun 22 (UTC)

* Before saving your edit, preview the page to ensure the TfD notice is displayed properly.

*****I disagree. The situation is not infrequently more complex than the basic [[Template:spoiler]] deals well with. I agreee that endless specailized spoilers are a mistake, but we now have three templates that between them seem to handle all the reasonable cases. Surely there must be clear usage instructions at each that describe how to use them, and when to use one of the others instead. Surely there eill ocasional be confusion, but that applies to so much of wikipedia. What is so horrid to you about havign these threee templates -- not an endless number, but three instead of only one? Where is it written in stoen that one, and that one the most basic possible, is all we "need". [[User:DESiegel|DES]] 17:51, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' I just read through the Whedon-spoiler discussion referenced, and I have to agree, this one looks potentially useful. --[[User:JohnDBuell|JohnDBuell]] | [[User talk:JohnDBuell|Talk]] 22:11, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Based on the discussion below, this looks suitably flexible and useful. --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 22:17, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Strong Keep''' Where an article includes spoilers for things not obvious from its title, this is a highly desireable way to let people know about it. Indeed, if you must have only one template, use '''only''' this one, so modified that if the "other" parameter is left blank, it reverts to something like the current "spoiler" template. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] 22:48, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

** Great, so propose this change on [[Template talk:Spoiler]]. I don't really care, so long as we only have one spoiler template, because Wikipedia's "responsibilities" with regards to spoiler warnings just isn't worth the effort. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 00:16, 2005 Jun 22 (UTC)

*** I am fine with two templates, and the work to convert the existing uses of the existing spoiler template is, i suspect, non-trivial. if you think it is so vital that there be only one template, propose the change yourself, and do the work of conversion. No one else here seems to think that having two templates is so horrid. It would be a good idea if each template's documentation referenced the other, and explained how and when to use it, and if this template survives this process I might well do that. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] 00:24, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**** Both templates (and another that I created, which I assume will be nominated for deletion soon) link to the [[Wikipedia:Spoiler_warning|spoiler warning]] page, which provides the type of instructions that you describe. The third template &mdash; {{tl|Spoiler-about}} &mdash; is an expanded version of {{tl|Spoiler}} (particularly useful in an article or section that contains spoilers on a single topic that isn't clear from the title). If any template were to replace (rather than supplement) the current {{tl|Spoiler}} template, it should be that one. (While its additional information usually isn't needed, it never is inappropriate, and could be rendered optional by a more knowledgeable template author than I.) But would this be worth the effort? Perhaps, but a trio of templates (two of which actively ''discourage'' the creation of further templates) seems entirely manageable to me. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 02:11, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*** Assuming that each serves a unique purpose, what harm results from having more than one spoiler template? No one is asking ''you'' to expend any "effort." &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 02:11, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', I'm not sure I'm big on having spoiler tags, but if we're going to have those this is a logical extension. --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]]) 01:20, 2005 Jun 22 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Provides context that [[Template:Spoiler]] is incapable of handling. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 04:48, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' per Sean's reasoning. The regular spoiler template can't handle it if the argument for the other subject isn't used. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|^(talk)]] 09:39, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', this one obviates the need for specific spoilers such as tolkien-spoiler and buffy-spoiler. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 10:10, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Strong keep''', I didn't even know this template existed when I was talking about the whedon-spoiler template, or else I would've referred to it :$. The same points that were brought up in the discussion for whedon-spoiler apply here. This template is a version that will work for many different spoilers rather than only whedon productions, and also allows people to be much more specific. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 11:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::I think that this was actually created in response to the debate over the whedon-spoiler template; at any rate it is clear from the history that it was creatd after that debate had started. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] 14:25, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::Indeed, I created the template directly in response to the {{tl|whedon-spoiler}} discussion (based upon another user's suggestion). &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 14:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - {{tl|Spoiler}} and {{tl|Spoiler-about}} are all we need. - [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 18:01, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', as per [[Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:Whedon-spoiler|Whedon-spoiler]] discussion. [[User:Shem Daimwood|Shem]]^{[[User talk:Shem Daimwood|(talk)]]} 18:10, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

<hr style="margin-top:1em; margin-bottom:1em;" />

====[[Template:wikitravelbyname]]====

Duplicate of [[Template:wikitravelpar]] (though the TFD'd is older) except wikitravelpar follows the format of the other templates of similar name: [[Template:wikisourcepar]], [[Template:wiktionarypar]], [[Template:wikiquotepar]]. [[User:Cburnett|Cburnett]] 16:49, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

; Multiple templates: If you are nominating multiple templates, choose a meaningful title for the discussion (like "[[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2008 August 14#American films by decade|American films by decade templates]]"). Tag every template with {{Tlxs|Tfd|2=heading={{var|{{Gray|discussion title}}}}}} or {{Tlxs|Tfm|{{var|{{Gray|name of other template}}}}|3=heading={{var|{{Gray|discussion title}}}}}} instead of the versions given above, replacing <code>{{var|discussion title}}</code> with the title you chose (but still not changing the <code>PAGENAME</code> code).

*'''Delete'''. (Comment: I don't think there's any debate. See talk pages.) --[[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 17:18, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

; Related categories: If including template-populated tracking categories in the TfD nomination, paste {{Tlx|Catfd|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}}} to the top of any categories that could be deleted as a result of the TfD, replacing <code>{{var|template name}}</code> with the name of the nominated template. (If you instead nominated multiple templates, use the meaningful title you chose earlier: {{Tlx|Catfd|2=header={{var|{{Gray|title of nomination}}}}}}.)

*'''Keep''' this one, as it follows the convention for a link to an external project. I'd support deleting [[template:wikitravel]] and [[template:wikitravelpar]], as they are links to external sites masquerading as Wikimedia Foundation sister projects link boxes. [[User:Gentgeen|Gentgeen]] 17:32, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

; TemplateStyles pages: If you are nominating [[WP:TemplateStyles|TemplateStyles]] pages, these templates won't work. Instead, paste this CSS comment to the top of the page:

**Hm, that's interesting, I was under the impression that WikiTravel was a sister project, but in fact it is ''not''. In that case we should probably remove such things as the 'transwiki to wikitravel' process, et al. Also, '''keep''' per Gentgeen, and delete the other two. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 19:49, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

:<code>/* This template is being discussed in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy. Help reach a consensus at its entry: <nowiki>https://</nowiki>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{CURRENTYEAR}}_{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}}_{{CURRENTDAY}}#Template:{{var|{{Gray|template_name}}}}.css */</code>

**The other two are now text links again, an anon had turned them into boxes early this morning. [[User:Steinsky|Joe D]] [[User talk:Steinsky|(t)]] 19:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

***And wikitravelbyname has been removed from use in favor of wikitravelpar... [[User:Cburnett|Cburnett]] 20:43, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*Yes, '''delete'''. (Gentgeen's and Radiant's objections were to the former ''content'' of the template, but the reason it's listed here is because it's a duplicate of an existing, better-''named'' template.)

|- id="Step II"

====[[Template:BeingVandalized]]====

! scope="row" style="background-color: #ffcc00;" | Step 2

Joke template, unfortunately not good enough for BJAODN. '''Delete'''. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 01:02, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

List the template

*Edit summary for its creation reads ''"(A little bit of silliness for the (too-serious) Wikipedia.)"''. '''Delete'''. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 11:27, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

| style="padding: 0.75em;" | {{Clickable button|Edit today's TfD log|url={{fullurl:Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{CURRENTYEAR}} {{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}|action=edit&section=1}}|class=mw-ui-progressive}} '''and paste the following text to the top of the list''':

*'''Delete.''' Just about as grotesque as it gets? {{User:Phils/sig}} 13:11, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', joke template. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 15:16, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', though I disagree on the hilarity, so I copied it to BJAODN. --[[User:MikeJ9919|MikeJ9919]] 19:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', since I doubt vandals would have the courtesy to use it. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|^(talk)]] 09:40, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

* '''For deletion:''' {{Tlxs|Tfd2|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}|text{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|Why you think the template should be deleted.}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}}

===June 20===

* '''For merging:''' {{Tlxs|Tfm2|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|other template's name}}}}|text{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|Why you think the templates should be merged.}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}}

====[[Template:PD-IndiaGov]]====

This is not true. See [[User talk:DuKot#India images]] and [http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railway/disclaimer.htm]. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 22:14, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Factually incorrect disclaimer. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 22:33, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete'''. Concur with the above. Misleading. pamri 17:23, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion&diff=15578744&oldid=15578707]

*'''Delete'''. Their gov'nt holds copyright. [[User:Shem Daimwood|Shem]]^{[[User talk:Shem Daimwood|(talk)]]} 18:13, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete''''. It is incorrect, and there is already a correct PD tag for India in place. [[User:David Newton|David Newton]] 22:29, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If the template has had previous TfDs, you can add {{tlx|Oldtfdlist|{{var|{{Gray|previous TfD without square brackets}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|result of previous TfD}}}}}} in the {{para|text}} field immediately before your rationale (or alternatively at the very end, after the last <code><nowiki>}}</nowiki></code>).

====[[Template:Support]] and [[Template:Object]] and [[Template:Oppose]] ====

This cannot be a good idea. Voting on every other topic as a proxy for consensus is bad enough, without adding a liberal sprinkling of dinky "+" and "-" images all over the shop. -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User_talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 21:47, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Added a third critter. Are there any more? -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User_talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 22:41, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::What about [[Template:N|N]], [[Template:Y|Y]], [[Template:Yes|Yes]] and [[Template:No|No]]? They aren't the exact same thing and aren't in widespread use, but I bring them up because they are similar. [[User:BrokenSegue|This link is]] [[User talk:BrokenSegue|'''B'''roken]] 02:22, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::Good spot - if they were being used on voting pages, then yes; however, they seem to be being used in articles, which is another matter althogether (although query whether they are actully needed, and whether a simply "Yes" and "No" would do). -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User_talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 14:11, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*{{Support}}, er..., '''Keep'''. Maybe it is dumb but this is becoming standard operating procedure on [[Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates]] (see their voting instructions) after being imported from [[Commons:Featured picture candidates]]. TFD is not the place to be setting guidelines for this kind of user behavior. If you want to move to exclude tokens like this from voting, I would suggest bringing it up at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)]] instead. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 22:02, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

**It's useful on Commons because it's a multilingual project, and a picture is needed for those who don't speak English. That's not an issue here, and the instruction creep and new, extra layer of transclusion at FPC and RFA are significant drawbacks. --[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 22:14, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

***I'm happy to have a discussion about whether this could be a problem (and I certainly admit the possiblity on technical grounds), but I do not believe it is an appropriate discussion to be having at TFD. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 22:25, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Hundreds of little images on every page with voting seems like an unnecessary draw on our resources. Hopefully nobody will contaminate VfD with this&mdash;the page will never load again. The representation that Feature Picture Candidates has "adopted" this change is a bit misleading&mdash;the change was made [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AFeatured_picture_candidates&diff=15493369&oldid=15493209 a few hours ago], and apparently unilaterally in the absence of Talk page discussion. --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 22:18, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**Fair point. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 22:31, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

***Aren't the bullets an image? [[User:Alphax|Alphax]]&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Alphax|&tau;]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|&epsilon;]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|&chi;]]} 17:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

****Yep - see [http://en.wikipedia.org/skins/monobook/bullet.gif] for an example. But this is on the part of the browser, not the server. Duh. I'll shut up now and vote. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]]&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Alphax|&tau;]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|&epsilon;]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|&chi;]]} 17:13, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' It really clearly demonstrates a consensus - it's much easier to see the most color in a section rather than the most "support"/"oppose" words (obviously in the final tally each one would have to be counted not just estimated by the color). Silversmith had a good idea in shortening the template to only <nowiki>{{s}} and {{o}}</nowiki>, which would make voting eaiser than ever before. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 22:26, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''':

*#Further encourages places like VFD to degrade into simple polls. VFD, TFD, etc. should be places for discussion

*#To ensure fast load times and a clean page, there should '''not''' be images littered all over the page.

*#Unnecessary load. If we don't use images, as I suggested, then typing <nowiki>{{support}} is not that much faster than typing '''support'''</nowiki>...well at least not enough to justify having a template for it. Besides, it's much more logical to use the syntax for bolding. Note that <nowiki>'''Keep''' is shorter than {{support}}</nowiki>, but either way, saving a few characters to type something so simple is hardly worth making a seperate template for it.

*#If half the people use the template, but the other half doesn't, I can definitely see this leading to people accidentally scanning over the votes as they count the little +'s and -'s to judge consensus. Unless ''everybody'' uses these templates, it will lead to a lack of uniformity on voting pages. But that's a relatively tiny problem- if I liked the idea of this template, this would make little difference to my opinion.

*#There will have to be two seperate templates- one for use on places like VFD and one for use on RFA. While I suppose saying "support" on VFD could be interpreted as a delete vote, it's definitely ambiguous enough to cause some confusion. Another minor problem- I'm voting '''delete''' mainly because of the first three points I made. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 22:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete.''' {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 22:42, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', I rather liked the templates initially, but sufficient reason has been stated to delete them. [[User:Phoenix2|Phoenix2]] 22:44, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Detonate''' [[User:BrokenSegue|This link is]] [[User talk:BrokenSegue|'''B'''roken]] 22:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' them all. Voting is evil (what am I doing here?). Besides, what Frazzydee said. &mdash; [[User:Mark Dingemanse|mark]] [[User Talk:Mark Dingemanse|&#9998;]] 23:05, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Discussion at Village Pump'''. Given that this is primarily a question of user behavior vs. server load, I have posted this question to [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Voting templates]]. In so doing I have asked that people refrain from voting on this issue to allow a more general discussion on whether voting templates represent unacceptable user behavior. TFD is after all '''''not''''' a setting for creating new policy governing how users should behave. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 23:07, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

**On the contrary, this ''is'' where template deletion discussions are held. Publicizing this discussion at the VP is all well and good, but it seems like you're trying to stifle/invalidate the discussion going on here with this request. <font color=#00A86B>[[User:Android79|<small>A</small>&#1080;<small>D</small>&#1103;<small>01D</small>]]</font><font color=#B87333>[[User talk:Android79|<small>TALK</small>]]</font><font color=#0047AB>[[Special:Emailuser/Android79|<small>EMAIL</small>]]</font> 00:07, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

***Please [[Wikipedia:assume good faith|assume good faith]]. I do not believe that policy should ever be created on *fD pages as the very format stifles discussion. There is nothing in the charter of TFD that says we are empowered to decide how people delineate votes, when voting is necessary, but that is what is defacto happening here. Presumably this will be the discussion everyone points to with respect to future voting templates even if the template was kept in User space or used with subst:. Basically, I feel that process matters more than just having people be confronted with a vote and saying keep or delete. Maybe my opinions in this regard are unusual, but I try to convey them honestly (for example I provided a direct link from VP to here and placed a notice here so people could in principle join the generalized discussion that I hoped for). Sorry if my methods have offended you. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 00:59, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

****No offense taken, and please understand that I was assuming good faith &ndash; I didn't mean to imply anything, just to describe what I saw. I don't quite get your reference to "policy" &ndash; this is simply a discussion regarding a few templates. If you want to vote with images, just don't use a template to do it. As others have pointed out, this is a Bad Idea&trade; for many different reasons. <font color=#00A86B>[[User:Android79|<small>A</small>&#1080;<small>D</small>&#1103;<small>01D</small>]]</font><font color=#B87333>[[User talk:Android79|<small>TALK</small>]]</font><font color=#0047AB>[[Special:Emailuser/Android79|<small>EMAIL</small>]]</font> 01:42, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

****The only way in which "the very format stifles discussion" is where people keep trying to turn the ''discussions'' into straight up/down support/oppose keep/delete votes using ''exactly'' such tools as these. '''Delete'''. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] 08:39, 2005 Jun 21 (UTC)

*'''Delete''': Excess complication and load for the negligible improvement they bring. [[User:Steinsky|Joe D]] [[User talk:Steinsky|(t)]] 23:11, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', using templates for voting stifles discussion, which is the primary purpose of voting in the first place. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 23:14, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', for the same reasons against the colorful boxes on VfD and other *fD places. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 23:22, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' for most of the reasons given above. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] 23:48, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. As cesarb says, there's precedent for eliminating the use of silly colored things in discussions (on VfD, at least). For these to be useful, ''everyone'' would have to use them, and I personally would not. Also, server load, transclusion, blah blah blah. <font color=#00A86B>[[User:Android79|<small>A</small>&#1080;<small>D</small>&#1103;<small>01D</small>]]</font><font color=#B87333>[[User talk:Android79|<small>TALK</small>]]</font><font color=#0047AB>[[Special:Emailuser/Android79|<small>EMAIL</small>]]</font> 00:01, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Draws on resources too much. -[[User:Lommer|Lommer]] | [[User talk:Lommer|^talk]] 00:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Kill, kill, kill. [[User:Markalexander100|Mark]][[User talk:Markalexander100|¹]] 00:33, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', really serves no purpose except to distract and use resources. [[User:Christopherparham|Christopher Parham]] [[User_talk:Christopherparham|(talk)]] 02:06, 2005 Jun 21 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' these templates. They are really useful, I love the way [[commons:Featured_picture_candidates]] looks. [[User:Sverdrup|&mdash; Sverdrup]] 02:58, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**Do you also like the fact that there's very little discussion at all on that page? Do you like the fact that several of the people who have adopted these templates have also taken to giving no rationales whatever? [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] 08:39, 2005 Jun 21 (UTC)

***Do you expect me to say I do? I think these are useful at featured pictures candidates, where they are just as silly as the boldface '''Support''' I see there (and I got used to do that, and now everyone does that). I can see why people object to these templates' specific uses but not their ''existence''; there are so many places in Wikipedia where we can use this (effecively!) that we can't be sure to cover here. [[User:Sverdrup|&mdash; Sverdrup]] 18:48, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Neutral'''. I quite like them, but if it is a strain on WP, and if pages will load much slower, or not at all, then delete. --[[User:Silversmith|<font color="A29EBA">'''Silversmith''']]</font> <small> [[User Talk:Silversmith|Hewwo]]</small> 03:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Even without the TFD template, those pictures make things look silly in a text-only browser such as [[Links (web browser)|Links]]. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 03:09, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. <font size = "1" face = "Verdana">[[User:Pmam21|pmam21]]^{''[[User talk:Pmam21|talk]]''}_{''[[User:Pmam21/articles|articles]]''}</font> 03:41, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Something we can do without. [[User:Enochlau|Enochlau]] 04:26, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**What I can't understand is why the template has to be deleted just because some people don't want to use it. I never wanted to take over the voting process and establish the template as the absolute process for voting. If people want to use this style they should have the option. The loading time of the page will only be mariginally influenced, (the icon being less than 1 kb) and most browsers would cache this. Should we now have a limit on the number of photos which can be posted on the FPC page to save bandwidth? Or should we limit our comments to save bandwidth? NO.

***Many people already are customising there votes by modifying their signature (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Image:Andromeda_gendler_sm.jpg Merovingian], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Undercarriage Denni], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Hot_chocolate B. Ramerth], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Walt_Whitman &#9999; Sverdrup] to name a few) and cramping someone's freedom of expression (IMO) is very unwiki. I can't see a problem of having an extra two templates if some people want to use them, its not like they take up gigabytes of Wiki's server. I intend to make them into the short <nowiki>{{s}} and {{o}}</nowiki> forms to really make them a time saver. And why shouldn't there be a time saver? To say that it will force people to be briefer in their comments is ridiculous. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 06:24, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

****I don't just not want to use them- I don't want to ''see'' them. They're slightly less irritating than they would be if they blinked, but not much. [[User:Markalexander100|Mark]][[User talk:Markalexander100|¹]] 07:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*****Well it's not like you vote on FPC anyway. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 08:41, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

******It is and I do. [[User:Markalexander100|Mark]][[User talk:Markalexander100|¹]] 04:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*******Even so, it is a bit selfish don't you think? --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 06:26, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

****None of those signatures are being customized with the use of templates (and neither is mine). <font color=#00A86B>[[User:Android79|<small>A</small>&#1080;<small>D</small>&#1103;<small>01D</small>]]</font><font color=#B87333>[[User talk:Android79|<small>TALK</small>]]</font><font color=#0047AB>[[Special:Emailuser/Android79|<small>EMAIL</small>]]</font> 11:30, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

****Why is a template a problem? --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 06:26, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

**I'm not saying it doesn't confer benefits. Some of the points raised here are quite interesting... but it's a matter of aesthetics. It's ugly, and we all want to concentrate on the pictures being offered and the comments being made. But really, counting oppose and support words, when they're in bold, really isn't that hard - and also there's no neutral icon too. [[User:Enochlau|Enochlau]] 23:42, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**There is actually, although I haven't brought it across from the commons because of all this argument erupted. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 06:26, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Extreme delete'''. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 07:53, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Will draw too much of the server's resources that will cause pages to load slower. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 08:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**If that is the case than why is it being used on the much larger Commons FPC? --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 10:13, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

***Because Commons is used by people with different languages that may not overlap, so it makes sense to have a language-independent symbol. We don't need it on :en. -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User_talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 11:27, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

****It's ironic hearing arguments about them being an eyesore, when the biggest eyesore on WP is the signatures people customize. It is also annoying to anyone who only reads diffs, and has been complained about a lot. But lovers of their fancy signatures wouldn't be happy if their "freedom" to use them was taken away. Including myself. --[[User:Silversmith|<font color="A29EBA">'''Silversmith''']]</font> <small> [[User Talk:Silversmith|Hewwo]]</small> 11:32, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

****Exactly. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 12:09, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*****Oh, I'd set up the software to take away the "fancy" sigs away too - a plain link to the user page and talk page should be enough for anyone: see: -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User_talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 12:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*****And in response to ALoan, English WP is the largest of all, and we have a lot of people read it and contribute to it whose english is very poor. So although it obviously isn't as necessary as on Commons, I don't think it's a valid point for deleting them. --[[User:Silversmith|<font color="A29EBA">'''Silversmith''']]</font> <small> [[User Talk:Silversmith|Hewwo]]</small> 11:37, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

******Hmm - if someone can't understand enough English to be able to use "support" and "object", do we really want them voting on FAC, FPC, VFD, etc? -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User_talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 12:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

******And you dont ''need'' a graphic to accomodate the different languages. A simple '+' or '-' would suffice. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 12:09, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*******Good idea. If it was simply a matter of <nowiki>{{subst:support}}</nowiki> being used to add <nowiki>'''+ Support'''</nowiki>, I would not care at all (but why do it? it is more characters to type, FCOL). But adding in <nowiki>{{support}}</nowiki> with the dinky image is wrong on many counts. -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User_talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 12:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

********And another point - The commons is using this template to accomodate language barriers. Right? Well if someone who can't speak english can understand that the words "support" and "oppose" (used in the templates <nowiki>{{s}} and {{o}}</nowiki>) than they should be able to just write the word "support" or "oppose". --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 22:30, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*[[Image:Symbol oppose vote.png|15px]] '''Oppose their use!''' I've looked at their use at [[Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates]] and elsewhere and find them thoroughly annoying. Furthermore, they distract from any comments that editors have made, which should be the more important point. They should all be '''Extreme deleted'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 12:29, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**Well I find your customized siganture ''very, annoying'', but I don't go complaining about it (upto now). Who are the editors and why should their vote be more important than a "common" wikipedian?? --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 10:06, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*[[Image:Le_Toru_Du_MOnde.jpg|45px]] '''Crush by elephant!''' (See, I can vote with pictures too) [[User:The wub|the wub ]] [[User_talk:The wub|<font color="green">"?/!"</font>]] 13:14, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**And why should't you be able to? --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 22:40, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - I like the idea, but it can't work (for reasons stated above). [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 14:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Annoying. Let's keep the wiki simple. --[[User:Bernard Helmstetter|Bernard Helmstetter]] 17:24, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' -- More resource hungry, more time to download a page. Sure, it's prettier, but that's hardly a positive when we're all so used to the masses of text here anyway and gotten along just fine until now. Everything just says no. - [[User:Longhair|Longhair]] | [[User talk:Longhair|Talk]] 17:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**If bandwidth is such an issue, than why run such as nominating poll at all 365 days a year? The actual image thumbnails on every image that is being voting on, would be more than the combined download time of all the icons used to vote for it. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 22:30, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*<font color="green">'''Delete'''</font> - Pretty but completely unnecessary. Maybe recommend people use colored votes if you want to make them more visible, but even this is not necessary. - [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 18:46, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Only some people would use, so appearence is misleading as well as distracting. -[[User:R. S. Shaw|R. S. Shaw]] 19:03, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**To reiterate, so are customized signatures. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 22:30, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' although merge object and oppose. Two is enough. They are nice, and not obligatory. I always said that colors are an important tools help increase the 'processing speed' of reading (i.e. save our time) - for example, it is slightly faster to count green/red instead of reading 'object', 'support', 'comment', etc. The increase in page size or processign speed is insignificant in the era of such fast computer capabilities growth. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] ^{[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]} 19:35, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*:We could implement a recommendation or policy to make vote text in colors instead, as I showed above.

*:The increase in bandwidth and server resource use is ''highly'' significant with an image-containing template which would appear on many pages many times from a server run entirely from donations. Templates like this have caused all kinds of debate already because of their server load. - [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 20:14, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

***I seem to remember that not too long ago Wiki ran a fund raiser to the amount of $20,000 for their servers. You can't tell me with that much to spend that wiki is being run a pair of 486's. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 22:30, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

****$75,000, as I recall, and it was raised well before the fundraiser concluded. Like so many other projects, however, the limiting factor on performance is not how much money you can throw at it, but how much developer time. --[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 23:27, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*****Surely not for server load, that would depend mainly on the equipment. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 06:29, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*****:Yes, for server load. Load depends on the equipment and the efficiency of the code. The code is bogged down by templates. Besides, these three are unnecessary and distracting. - [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 17:59, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Use an edit summary such as <code>Adding deletion/merger nomination of <nowiki>[[</nowiki>Template:{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}<nowiki>]]</nowiki></code>.

*'''Delete'''. There are already more pressures than I like away from consensus building. We keep introducing elements that increase the appearance of democracy at the expense of consensus. These are way too reminiscent of marks on ballot papers. The various tallies are worrying enough. This is a step too far.&mdash;[[User:TheoClarke|Theo ]] [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 19:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**So you are against democracy?--[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 22:30, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

***[[WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_democracy|Wikipedia is not a democracy]]. It works on building consensus, not raw vote-tallying. <font color=#00A86B>[[User:Android79|<small>A</small>&#1080;<small>D</small>&#1103;<small>01D</small>]]</font><font color=#B87333>[[User talk:Android79|<small>TALK</small>]]</font><font color=#0047AB>[[Special:Emailuser/Android79|<small>EMAIL</small>]]</font> 23:36, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 20:48, 2005 Jun 21 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' -- Umm... I dont hate it. It looks cool and okei. But for the sake of server load this should be removed as it can simply be done with <nowiki>'''Oppose'''|'''Delete'''</nowiki>. Err..server load..? Yeah server load... users are encourged to substitue bable template (though i dont do it) to their user pages for the sake of reducing load! So I say delete -- [[User:Oblivious|Oblivious]] 21:33, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**People! can't you guys see that it is being used universally on the commons FPC? A much larger page, and as I mentioned further up the page - if people can understand the words "support" and "oppose" enought to be able to type in the write template, than they can just as easily type the words in so the templates do not play any part in overcoming the language barrier! Its there - as it should be here - because people want to express their vote in that style. Why oppress it? --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 22:30, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

***1) You have an odd definition of the word ''universally''. 2) I don't care what they're/you're doing at Commons. 3) It's not oppression. If you ''really'' feel like it, and no one else cares, you can ''still use images'' in your comments. Just ''don't use this template''. <font color=#00A86B>[[User:Android79|<small>A</small>&#1080;<small>D</small>&#1103;<small>01D</small>]]</font><font color=#B87333>[[User talk:Android79|<small>TALK</small>]]</font><font color=#0047AB>[[Special:Emailuser/Android79|<small>EMAIL</small>]]</font> 23:34, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

****What do you mean and "odd" definition of the word 'universally'? Have you even had a look at the FPC on the Commons? Perhaps 1 in every 50 votes doesn't use the template (see [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Featured_pictures_candidates/Image:WhiteRose.jpg#.5B.5B:Image:WhiteRose.jpg.5D.5D this] [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Featured_pictures_candidates/Image:Templo_de_Diana.jpg#.5B.5B:Image:Templo_de_Diana.jpg.5D.5D this] and [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Featured_pictures_candidates/Image:Londres.jpg#.5B.5B:Image:Londres.jpg.5D.5D this] to name a few.) And the Commons is part of the Wiki project - and if it works OK for them, it can certainly be used here without an ill effects. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 06:26, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

***At FPC I count about 10 people using it (infrequently), and quickly scanned about 30 that don't. Hardly "universally" accepted. [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 23:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

****To be fair, there were only about nine hours - from 13:02 Jun 20 to 21:51 Jun 20 UTC - between the instructions on FPC changed to use <nowiki>{{Support/Oppose}}</nowiki> and the tfd template was applied. In that time frame, the only support or oppose votes I see on FPC that did not use the template is Guettarda's [[Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Daisy1web|here]] (at 13:04) and Longhair's [[Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Wine grapes|here]] (which another editor later changed to use the template). In contast, all of the other six editors voting during that window used the templates, and three more began even after the tfd notice started wreaking havoc with the formatting. --[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 00:10, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*[[Image:Llama.png|45px]] '''Crush by llama!''' OK so they're cute, but, um, no. [[Commons:Featured picture candidates]] makes me shudder. Oh at first glance it's all pretty with clicky things and colours and drop-shadows and whatnot that would make the overfriendliness team at Microsoft.com proud, but there are hardly any *reasons* given for the votes! It's already bad enough that some people (here ''and'' there) give little to no reason with their vote, but being able to copy-n-paste such a tag will further encourage mindless voting. I doubt server drag would be much of an issue; however it is more troublesome for the end user. Now which is longer?

:*<nowiki><a href="/wiki/Image:Symbol_support_vote.png" class="image" title=""><img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/15px-Symbol_support_vote.png" alt="" longdesc="/wiki/Image:Symbol_support_vote.png" /></nowiki>

:*<nowiki><li></nowiki>

:Yes, that's the basic HTML this page shoved me for each type. 222 characters instead of just 4. Multiply that over the course of a clogged SchoolWatch Vfd and it'll take forever to download (in comparison to the pure tagging) regardless of how good your connection is. I can see the reasons for using it, but I would never want to see an asthetic "improvement" made at the cost of supplying reasoning. We're Wikipedia, not Encarta, we value functionality over clicky things. Crush, I say! Crush! *does best impression of ticked-off llama sound* *fails miserably* bah, I ''knew'' I should have gone with the donkey instead... [[User:Master Thief Garrett|Master Thief Garrett]]^{[[User talk:Master Thief Garrett|Talk]]} 03:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**The commons is a different voting process - there they don't use the thumbnail discription or put in reasons for their opposal as a rule. As for the copy and paste - that is simply ridiculous! How can the text <nowiki> '''support''' be harder to copy than the text {{support}} </nowiki> ? So there is no "cost of supplying reason". It is just as easy for someone to leave a reason without the template as it is with the template. I fail to rationale behind that argument. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 06:26, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 04:45, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

**Look at the above vote - no rationale and no template. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 06:29, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

***And there's nothing wrong with that! Why say again what loads of others have already said? [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 07:49, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

****What?! Have you been reading what is being said at all? People are saying that if the templates are introduced than the voting process will have more of these no-reason-votes. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 08:19, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*****And what's wrong with that? [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 12:21, 22 Jun 2005 UTC)

*****The FPC page should have a certain amount of reason behind each vote. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 22:36, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

******[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] dude, Why dont you give up? I mean majority of people are saying '''Delete''' with reasons good enough to delete it. As a regular voter in FP you should know, better than anyone else, majority is taken into consideration in descision making. --[[User:Oblivious|Oblivious]] 13:15, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*******There is no ''way'' I'm going to "just give up". The only have decent objection to this template is that of server load. And to tiny extra templates aren't likely to make much difference since such an overwhelming amount of people say that they hate them and will not use them. Although I can't see the justice behind comments like "they look ugly" coming from users who use ridiculous signature styles. I know there isn't a chance now that these templates will survive, but I just can't see why a user should be unable to use this simple, small template. I drew a case study from the FPC page on the Commons, showing that the page loads up as fast as the FPC on en.wikipedia, and there was no problems with server load. But people just conveniently ignored the point. People are saying that the template would discourage reasons behind votes, just because instead of typing <nowiki> '''support''' you will be typing {{Support}} </nowiki> and therefore it will somehow prevent you from typing anything after it. I mean where is the logic behind that!? I just can't believe they way this template is being treated. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 22:39, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Some faulty reasoning has been thrown around. For example, people should always provide a rationale and these templates shouldn't change anything about how they act. Also, this is a multilingual project just like the commons. The number of non-native English wikipedians is significant. Still, I don't see how these are useful for scanning unless everyone uses them. And unless subst: is used they will strain servers and using subst: doesn't exactly make voting any easier. It's a nice idea, but I don't think it would work. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|^(talk)]] 09:32, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

**What would not work? These templates are being taken so seriously that everyone has to be against it or accept some kind of impending dominance of silly icons -- it's a wiki, people! Templates are used when people like it, because they think it's a good idea. I can't understand how anyone just wants to delete these templates, when what they want is really to frown upon their use in their favorite Wikipedia insitution. What if, for example, this template was kept alive, was sporadically used on all votings but only was left in heavy use in say, personal elections. (I don't know if we have any of those left in wiki-form.) The point here is that it's not sensible to ban this EnWiki-wide just because "it won't work". Have some faith in the free wiki. [[User:Sverdrup|&mdash; Sverdrup]] 10:40, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* [[Image:Symbol support vote.png|15px]] '''Support''' They make the page eaiser to read at a glance by looking at the colors. --[[User:Michael180|michael180]] 14:22, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. There are enough knee-jerk voters already; why make it easier for them? [[User:Mel Etitis|Mel Etitis]] ([[User talk:Mel Etitis|<font color="green">&Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf;</font>)]] 14:34, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**How is it easier for them with a template? --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 22:39, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', not needed here. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]]&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Alphax|&tau;]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|&epsilon;]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|&chi;]]} 17:13, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete.''' Wikipedians can read fine without the server resources. [[User:Shem Daimwood|Shem]]^{[[User talk:Shem Daimwood|(talk)]]} 18:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', because they encourage people to take one side or the other without any consideration that they might want to be neutral or just want to add a comment. [[User:Angela|Angela]][[user talk:Angela|.]] 20:29, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*:'''Comment''': Angela's is an excellent point, I'd encourage other editors to note it. [[User:Shem Daimwood|Shem]]^{[[User talk:Shem Daimwood|(talk)]]} 20:43, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*::This point can be overcome with the addition of a "neutral" template. There already is an image [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Symbol_neutral_vote.png Neutral Vote], so creating a tempate would be simple. --[[User:Fir0002|Fir0002]] 22:39, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - more overcomplication by people who think "votes" around here are actually votes. -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|&#9998;]] 01:54, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* '''Keep''' all. These are useful in many contexts. A deletion solely based on whether they are needed ''here'' is illogical. The decision about use for voting is a different issue &ndash; it must not be decided by a vote for or against a particular template. (I actually sympathize with Mel Etitis' and Angela's concern about [[Wikipedia:sheep vote|sheep votes]], but whether they actually aggravate the problem is questionable. The templates may even make it ''easier'' to spot (and fight, e.g. discount) such votes. I believe that making things intentionally hard often creates more problems than it solves. Such questions should be discussed in a different place, as [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] said.) &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] [[User_talk:SebastianHelm|(talk)]] 02:32, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', on wikipedia, even votes shouldn't be just about numbers. --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]]) 02:39, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

*: <s>Why is this a reason against a template for a checkmark that can be used in hundreds of other places? &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] [[User_talk:SebastianHelm|(talk)]] 04:07, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)</s>

*::It encourages scanning of the page for the majority opinion instead of reading the comments. If there's something other than voicing support or opposition to things on infrastructure pages you want to use the checkmark for it's still there as an image, in that case there's no need to have a boldface "support" attached to it. --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]]) 04:13, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

*:::: Sorry, I just realized that this vote is not about the "Y" and "N" templates. &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] [[User_talk:SebastianHelm|(talk)]] 04:29, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

*:::::Ooh, hadn't seen those, those are excellent, all for keeping those. --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]]) 04:32, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' [[User:Evil Monkey|Evil Monkey]]&#8756;[[User talk:Evil Monkey|Hello]] 03:37, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

<hr style="margin-top:1em; margin-bottom:1em;" />

====[[Template:Cfru]]====

Fork of [[Template:Cfr]] with an extra parameter used for 'umbrella' nominations. Not actually in use. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 09:36, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. --[[User:Kbdank71|Kbdank71]] 16:09, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. It is useful for umbrella nominations, but it's not advertised on [[WP:CFD]]. Not many people actually knows they should use this template for such nominations. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 15:27, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

**Why should they? ([[meta:instruction creep]] - it's a complication of process that serves no real need). [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 10:14, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

* '''Question''': What's an "umbrella nomination"? &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] [[User_talk:SebastianHelm|(talk)]] 02:52, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

; Multiple templates: If you are nominating multiple templates, paste the following code instead. You can add up to 50 template names (separated by vertical bar characters <code>|</code>). Use the same meaningful title that you chose in Step 1.

====[[Template:Exploding animals]]====

:* Multiple templates for deletion: {{Tlxs|Tfd2|{{var|{{Gray|template name 1}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|template name 2 ...}}}}|title{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|meaningful title}}}}|text{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|Why you think the templates should be deleted.}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}}

Redundant with [[:Category:Exploding animals]], and it has no meaningful ordering other than alphabetical. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 09:20, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

:* Multiple templates for merging: {{Tlxs|Tfm2|{{var|{{Gray|template name 1}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|template name 2 ...}}}}|with{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|main template (optional)}}}}|title{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|meaningful title}}}}|text{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|Why you think the templates should be merged.}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}}

*'''Keep.''' <s>'''Keep and rename'''. Should be [[Template:Exploding animals]], since birds and toads aren't mammals.</s> --[[User:MarkSweep|MarkSweep]] 14:32, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:** If there is a template you want the other templates to be merged into, you can optionally specify it using {{para|with}}.

::Done, but I'm voting '''delete'''. This template is redundant. [[User:Gemberling|Gemberling]] 15:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

; Related categories: If this template deletion proposal involves a category populated solely by templates, paste this code in the {{para|text}} field of the <code><nowiki>{{Tfd2}}</nowiki></code> template, before your rationale: {{Tlxs|Catfd2|{{var|{{Gray|category name}}}}}}

*'''Keep'''. I would have voted delete for almost any other template like this, but the topic of exploding animals is so absurd and unusual, it warrants having a template to give it that much extra attention. It has been a benefit to me in the past, and I'm sure that it would be a benefit to other readers. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 18:52, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

|- id="Step III"

*'''Keep''', per [[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]. --[[User:Randy Johnston|Randy Johnston]] 23:44, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

! scope="row" style="background-color: orange" | Step 3

*'''Keep''' quite a good template, unusual and interesting. Good to display: a category doesn't display the different articles on the exploding animal pages. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 00:16, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Notify users

*'''Keep'''...it's just too hilarious. --[[User:MikeJ9919|MikeJ9919]] 07:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

| style="padding: 0.5em;" | Notify the creator of the template, the main contributors, and (if you're proposing a merger) the creator of the other template. (To find them, look in the [[Help:Page history|page history]] or [[Help:Talk page|talk page]] of the template.) To do this, paste one of the following in their user talk pages:

*'''Keep'''. "Human interest" to its extreme. [[User:Shem Daimwood|Shem]]^{[[User talk:Shem Daimwood|(talk)]]} 09:36, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' - kaboom! [[User:Alphax|Alphax]]&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Alphax|&tau;]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|&epsilon;]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|&chi;]]} 12:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''; it doesn't take up much room (unlike some other templates I've seen) and it's both funny and informative. [[User:A2Kafir|A2Kafir]] 13:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Although it is really funny, we only need the category. (The only advantage of the template is the thumbnail of the exploding whale, which is hard to see anyway.) [[User:Wikiacc|Wikiacc]] [[User talk:Wikiacc|(talk)]] 18:24, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. It nice to see a little levity in the Wikipedia that is also informative and not an immediate candidate for BJAODN. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 18:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*''' Keep''', it certainly is useful to list the anim,als that can explode, maybe spontaneouisly, which is potentially useful--[[User:Sstabeler|Sstabeler]] 18:58, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*Delete. That's what categories are for. --[[User:ContiE|Conti]]|[[User talk:ContiE|&#9993;]] 22:09, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' for easy navigation. What's next deleting templates that interlink Sherlock Holmes novels or amino acids? - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|^(talk)]] 09:43, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''&nbsp;&mdash; it's really interesting to browse through all such articles._{<small>&nbsp;</small>}&mdash;_{<small>&nbsp;</small>}[[User:Pt|Pt]]_{&nbsp;[[User_talk:Pt|(T)]]} 17:19, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. The reasons keepers give are reasons to spice up category display in general, not a reason to duplicate categories with templates. (If it were structured like [[#Template:Slashdot]] I'd vote "keep".) &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] [[User_talk:SebastianHelm|(talk)]] 02:46, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

* '''For deletion:''' {{Tlxs|Tfd notice|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}}} <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>

====[[Template:Current-now-aniv]] & [[Template:Current-now]]====

* '''For merging:''' {{Tlxs|Tfm notice|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|other template's name}}}}}} <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>

Added to two articles which deal with events taking place on June 19. Little apparent purpose.--[[User:Pharos|Pharos]] 05:44, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* '''Multiple templates:''' There is no template for notifying an editor about a multiple-template nomination. In these cases, write a personal message.

*'''Delete both'''. Can't these poorly worded, confusingly named messes be speedy deleted? [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 06:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment'''. I'd like to hear from the creator about his/her intentions, since these have only existed for 7 hours. How are you guys searching for these things that you are so frequently pulling in just created templates? [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 06:05, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', don't make template forks. As to Dragon's question - if they're used or linked to some place we frequent, we just happen to run into them. At least that's what I do. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 07:38, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*:That wouldn't seem to explain a case like {{tl|Guideline1}} where my understanding was that it hadn't yet been used on any pages. Am I mistaken about that? [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 07:44, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*:*It was in [[:Category:Wikipedia guidelines]] at a time when I was cleaning that up. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 09:20, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

If you see any [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Directory|WikiProjects]] banners ([[Template:WikiProject banner shell/testcases#Template|they look like this]]) at the top of the template's talk page, you can let them know about the discussion. Most WikiProjects are subscribed to [[Wikipedia:Article alerts|Article alerts]], which means they are automatically notified. If you think they have not been notified, you can paste the same message in the projects' talk pages, or use [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Compact|Deletion sorting lists]]. Note that Twinkle does not notify WikiProjects.

===June 19===

|}

====[[Template:Anarchism2]]====

Used on only one page. [[User:Ingoolemo|<font color=blue>Ingoolemo</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Ingoolemo|<font color=blue>^talk</font>]] 04:34, 2005 Jun 20 (UTC)

*<s>'''Keep'''. Being used on only a single page is not a TFD criterion. With complex nav boxes it makes sense to used transclusion to avoid cluttering the edit space. Or perhaps you also want to remove all the factboxs associated with planets, such as {{tl|Planet Infobox/Earth}} used on [[Earth]]. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 06:21, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)</s> '''Delete'''. Being used on a single page is still not a TFD criterion, but Radiant is correct that this is a fork apparently created by an aggressive edit warrior who has already had several POV page forks of [[Anarchism]] VfDed [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Anarchism_%28anti-state%29_and_Anarchism_%28socialist%29] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Anarchism_%28theory%29] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Anarchism_%28philosophy%29]. Based on the VfDs, I would support '''speedy'''. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 07:59, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', it's a fork of [[Template:Anarchism]]. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 07:37, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', POV fork template. By the way, it was me who asked for this template be put on TfD at [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Anarchism (anti-state) and Anarchism (socialist)]]. It was created together with the POV forks deleted on that VfD. And the only article this template is currently at is a suspected recreation of another deleted article (but I cannot find the original). --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 11:54, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' as a duplicate. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 00:17, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Consider adding any templates you nominate to your watchlist. This will help ensure that your nomination notice is not mistakenly or deliberately removed.

====[[Template:Slashdot]]====

Since it has no meaningful ordering other than alphabetical, and since the [[:Category:Slashdot]] already exists, '''delete''' this. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 12:35, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

=== After nominating: Notify interested projects and editors ===

*'''Keep'''. This makes navigating easier for the user, whom is most likely interested in the topic anyway --[[User:Hoovernj|Hoovernj]] 04:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

While it is sufficient to list a template for discussion at TfD, nominators and others sometimes want to attract more attention from and participation by informed editors. All such efforts must comply with [[WP:CANVASS|Wikipedia's guideline against biased canvassing]].

*'''Delete''': Not only can this be done better with categories, it ''should'' be done by prose in the slashdot article. [[User:Steinsky|Joe D]] [[User talk:Steinsky|(t)]] 12:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*:There are 18 articles in Category:Slashdot and it's subcategory, and it makes sense to highlight the most important. As for describing them in the Slashdot article itself, what about the nine other places in article space where it is used as a navigational aid? [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 19:10, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Unless it changed in the last few minutes, then it doesn't look alphabetical, and navigation templates are naturally less all encompassing than categories. Could do with a little cleanup though. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 13:13, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Most people who will be looking at one of the [[Slashdot]] articles will probably want to look at some of the other articles. This navigation box makes that convenient. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 13:50, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Useful navigation box. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 16:23, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. What is the point of having categories if there are going to be templates everywhere? - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 17:30, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''': Convinced by Joe D's argument [[User:Mark Lewis|Mark Lewis]] 18:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' now that it's been reworked. [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 19:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' useful navigation box. [[User:Nickptar|Nickptar]] 20:19, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' Convenient aid.--[[User:Fangz|Fangz]] 17:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', i use these all the time, and i never use categories. "omg 32 kb of wasted space" - dumb. [[User:SECProto|SECProto]] 20:19, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' -- I believe this is useful (though a category exists for slashdot) --[[User:Oblivious|Oblivious]] 01:36, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' useful navigational aid. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|^(talk)]] 09:45, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' Useful, and isn't hurting anyone. [[User:LeoDV|LeoDV]] 10:54, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' Notorious site, with subcultures, Geek concentration and your spiritual synthesis, it's one of the most Internet culture representative in these days. --[[User:Mateusc|Mateusc]] 17:10, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' why delete it? it does it's job, and does it well.

*'''Keep''' Now that it's been reworked. I really wish we could present categories in such a nice structured way some day. Until then, keep. &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] [[User_talk:SebastianHelm|(talk)]] 02:59, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

To encourage participation by less experienced editors, avoid Wikipedia-specific abbreviations in the messages you leave about the discussion, link to any relevant policies or guidelines, and link to the TfD discussion page itself. If you are recommending that a template be speedily deleted, please give the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|criterion]] that it meets.

====[[Template:Guideline1]]====

Fork of [[Template:Guideline]]. Maybe we should consider speedy'ing template forks. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 09:15, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

:Why are you proposing this for deletion, Radiant, and what do you mean by fork? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 09:40, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

*What I meant is that it's a duplicate of an existing template. Creating two divergent templates for a single purpose is potentially confusing. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 09:54, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

:How could it be confusing? There are many templates with different versions. Who would it confuse, and what might they be confused by? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 09:55, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

:*It would be confusing to see guidelines classified with two different templates. It implies that there are different kinds, or levels, of guidelines, and doesn't clarify in any way where the distinction lies. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 10:03, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

::The only difference at the moment is that one is beige and the other is yellow, which I doubt will cause much confusion, and I've elsewhere explained to you that I'm going to reword the second one to improve the English, because the writing on the current template isn't very good. The important thing is to explain that the page is a guideline, not policy, and I won't be changing that core issue. Why on earth would the existence of this template matter to you so much that you nominate it for deletion within an hour of its creation? I'd be grateful if you would explain that, so I can understand what this is about. It's looking as though you've appointed yourself the template police. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 10:32, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

:::Multiple forks of the same content are problematic if the content/purpose of the "original" changes and the forks are not updated appropriately. You then have the possibility of multiple "official" looking templates that give differing information on the same subject. --[[User:TheParanoidOne|TheParanoidOne]] 10:44, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::"Template police" might be a bit hard, but TFD is quite deletionist with respect to template forking. See, for example, Whedon-spoiler below. It has distinctive content and is used on dozens of pages and yet this community wants to delete it. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 10:57, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

*And '''keep''', by the way. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 10:32, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Obviously, if the wording of the existing needs attention, ''that'' template should be edited. Another template with 'better' wording is rediculous. -- [[User:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 10:45, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Userfy'''. As a developmental version it would do better (meaning avoid objections) by being placed in user space until SlimVirgin knows how she wants to change the templates in general use or how it will distinguish itself. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 10:57, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Userfy''' and calm down. One of the deletion criteria is "Templates should not be redundant". If the original template needs work, just work on it. [[User:Sarg|Sarg]] 11:06, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment''. I just want to note for the record that I'd only just created the thing, in order to see whether I could work out how to change the color without screwing up the first one. I went to make myself something to eat, and returned to see it nominated for deletion! And not a word to me, which signals a distinct absence of the collaborative spirit. That's all I'm going to say because this isn't worth expending energy on. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 11:16, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

*: Just an idea: Maybe we could agree on some convention to avoid such misunderstandings. Userfy probably isn't always an option as the change of namespace brings about some complications. Maybe just naming them "temporary_..." might help. &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] [[User_talk:SebastianHelm|(talk)]] 03:06, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

* '''Notifying related WikiProjects:''' [[WP:WikiProject|WikiProjects]] are groups of editors that are interested in a particular subject or type of editing. If the article is within the scope of one or more WikiProjects, they may welcome a brief, neutral note on their project's talk page(s) about the TfD. You can use {{Tls|Tfd notice}} for this. Tagging the nominated template's talk page with a relevant Wikiproject's banner will result in the template being listed in that project's ''[[WP:AALERTS|Article Alerts]]'' automatically, if they are [[Wikipedia:Article_alerts/Subscription_list|subscribed to the system]]. For instance, tagging a template with {{tl|WikiProject Physics}} will list the discussion in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Physics/Article alerts]].

===June 18===

* '''Notifying main contributors:''' While not required, it is generally considered courteous to notify the creator and any main contributors of the template and its talk page that you are nominating for discussion. To find the creator and main contributors, look in the [[Help:Page history|page history]] or [[Help:Talk page|talk page]].

At this point, no further action is necessary on your part. Sometime after seven days have passed, someone other than you will either close the discussion or, if needed, "[[WP:RELIST|relist]]" it for another seven days of discussion. If the nomination is successful, it will be moved to the [[WP:TFDH|Holding Cell]] until the change is implemented. There is no requirement for nominators to be part of the implementation process, but they are allowed to if they so wish.

==Discussion==

Anyone can join the discussion, but please understand the [[WP:deletion policy|deletion policy]] and explain your reasoning.

People will sometimes also recommend '''[[Wikipedia:Template substitution|subst]]''', '''subst and delete''', or similar. This means they think the template text should be "[[Hard coding|hard-coded]]" into the articles that are currently using it. Depending on the content, the template itself may then be deleted; if preserving the edit history for attribution is desirable, it may be [[Wikipedia:History merging|history-merged]] with the target article or moved to mainspace and redirected.

Templates are rarely orphaned—that is, removed from pages that transclude them—before the discussion is closed. A list of open discussions eligible for closure can be found at [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Old unclosed discussions]].

=== Closing discussion ===

====[[Template:Eric42TestPages]]====

Administrators should read the [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Closing instructions|closing instructions]] before closing a nomination. Note that [[WP:XFDcloser]] semi-automates this process and ensures all of the appropriate steps are taken.

A user just "messing around". The template is only found one of the user's subpages. it should be subst:'d and then deleted. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 11:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Subst: and then Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 11:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Subst''' & '''speedy delete'''. Test pages [[Wikipedia:Candidates_for_speedy_deletion#General|qualify]]. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:44, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Userfy''' until we hear from {{user|Eric42}}. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 15:35, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

*Move the templates to his userspace, and delete the redirects. Notify the man that he can use his userpages as templates as much as he likes. [[User:Sverdrup|&mdash; Sverdrup]] 23:35, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Hurricaneivanlatestadvisory]]====

The name is self explanitory. It's an advisory from SAT SEP 11 2004. Presumably at one time the text was transcluded into an article on [[Hurricane Ivan]], but a Wikipedia and Google site-search didn't find anything. [[User:Poccil]] who created the page quit editing in February. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 11:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 11:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. No longer useful. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:48, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' as per previous. --[[User:Feydey|Feydey]] 13:15, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:ChattFM]]====

A template for adding [[:Category:Chattanooga FM stations]] to articles. Used on exactly one article. It should be subst:'d and deleted. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 09:27, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*<s>'''Subst: and delete'''</s> [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 09:27, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) '''Keep''' the now completed version (with the assumption that [[User:Radiojon]] will be writing LOTS of articles to "fix" all of those [[Wikipedia:red link|red links]] in the template). [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 12:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Subst''' & '''delete'''. Obviously unnecessary. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:51, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Absolutely do not delete!</small>'''. For the impatient, I have created the template that this was intended to be. &nbsp; &ndash;[[User:Radiojon|radiojon]] 06:50, 2005 Jun 20 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Intended as a navigational template across a large number of pages that [[User:Radiojon|Radiojon]] is also apparently working on producing. Since it uses radio station frequencies (a very sensible organization), it is functionally distinct from the Category despite containing all the same elements. All in all, a useful navigational template, or at least it will be useful when the articles are created. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 07:10, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', what makes this template "obviously unnecessary"? [[User:Phoenix2|Phoenix2]] 23:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' for now. I hope that [http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=491 bug 491: category piping] will soon get fixed, which will make such double work unnecessary. &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] [[User_talk:SebastianHelm|(talk)]] 03:14, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

===June 17===

====[[Template:Multispoiler]]====

Another specialized spoiler template. Unecessary. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 05:51, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 05:51, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Redundant. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:53, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Weak keep'''. May be useful in articles about multiple fictional works. If not kept, at least make a redirect to [[Template:Spoiler]]. Or can templates be redirected at all? [[User:JIP|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; <font color="#CC0000">J</font><font color="#00CC00">I</font><font color="#0000CC">P</font> | [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 19:53, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**Yes, templates can be redirected, and that would make sense in this case. '''Delete and/or redirect'''. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 10:48, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' in favor of [[template:Spoiler-about]] which does a better job when this might be useful. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] 14:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep; let me explain...''' - If someone can find a handy alternative to this (which I do not believe "spoiler-about" to be, then delete it, but I really do believe that things like lists should hav a sort of all-points warning. [-[[User:Litefantastic|Litefantastic]]]

*'''Delete''' in favour of {{tl|spoiler-other}}, which is much more specific. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 00:07, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Msh]]====

An unused template for adding a non-existing category (Maps of South Holland) to an article. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 05:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 05:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Serves no purpose. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:55, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:Phoenix2|Phoenix2]] 03:20, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Whedon-spoiler]]====

We do not need a [[Template:Spoiler|spoiler template]] for every single fictional universe. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 02:16, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Why not? It's useful and affects a large number of pages. If someone wants to keep track of it and use it then I think it is worth having. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 04:00, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. It is better to use a template which warns what is going to be spoiled. [[User:MosheZadka|MosheZadka]] 09:46, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - useless overspecialization. -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|&#9998;]] 04:35, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. I do not see how it is significantly useful. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 04:37, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete.''' It serves the same exact purpose as [[Template:Spoiler]]. - [[User:Brian Kendig|Brian Kendig]] 04:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Unecessary specialization; redundant with [[Template:Spoiler]]. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 05:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*<s>'''Delete''', for the reason cited.</s> &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 05:43, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', simple [[template:spoiler]] is enough. [[User:Evil Monkey|Evil Monkey]]&#8756;[[User talk:Evil Monkey|Hello]] 10:53, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', unnecessary specialization. A spoiler is a spoiler. [[User:Kelly Martin|Kelly Martin]] 11:03, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' per the above. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 11:02, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Presumably it is only used in the Whedonverse articles, so it should be obvious what is likely to be spoiled, yes? Redundant with the usual spoiler notice. --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 02:37, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' and find a way to add this to the speedy deletion guidelines. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 05:28, 2005 Jun 20 (UTC)

*:I still disagree with deleting this and would strongly object to any speedy criterion that might be applied to templates with distinctive elements (and referencing Buffy is distinctive whether or not you view it as useful) and is used on more than 60 pages. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 05:51, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. I am a ''huge'' Joss Whedon fan, but there's no need to collect ''spoilers'' specifically for Buffy, etc. [[:Category:Buffyverse stubs]] makes sense, as Buffyverse fans can focus their editing efforts. [[:Category:Whedonverse]] (grouping Buffy, Angel, and Firefly categories) might make sense, to collect the article sets. But why would anyone need to know which Whedonverse articles have ''spoilers''? Are they going to review articles including these spoiler templates to ''do'' something? On the other hand, it's a shame to lose the cute image. &#9786; &mdash; [[User:Jeffq|Jeff Q]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Jeffq|(talk)]] 09:37, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. The only articles where I can see this being used are where the reader will already know what would be spoiled, as TenOfAllTrades said above. --[[User:Dave2|Dave2]] 12:19, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Too similar to [[Template:Spoilers]] --[[User:Michael180|michael180]] 14:07, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment'''. Since a lot of people seem to disagree with me on this one, I want to clarify my position. I don't consider this redundant because it encompasses more than a simple spoiler by identifying the subject matter and providing navigational elements to related topics, e.g. Whedonverse, Buffy, Angel, etc. So I regard it as useful as both a spoiler and a micro navigational template. Nor do I consider it problematic to fork something like this since I can't imagine any way one could update {{tl|spoiler}} where it would be problematic if related templates were not changed. After all, it's not like the spoiler template contains any behavior guidelines or instructions. All in all, I think it is fairly cute, at least minimally useful, and does no harm, so I support it. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 14:59, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. This is not redundant with the "spoiler" tag. In response to Ten-Trades and Dave2 said, some people might not be aware -- there is interplay between the two shows and between the shows and the comic books that is not immediately obvious unless a person follows all three. In addition, by that logic, it should be immediately obvious that, if you're reading an article on any work you ought to know that it could contain "spoilers" -- it seems an obvious conclusion. And yet, we have spoiler warnings anyway. It is much more obvious that an article about a story has spoilers about that story than it is that it will have spoilers about other stories. The purpose of the Whedonverse spoiler tag is to ensure that people realize there are other spoilers therein. - [[User:CheNuevara|Che Nuevara, the Democratic Revolutionary]] 06:34, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

<s>*'''Keep'''. Upon reading [[User:CheNuevara|Che Nuevara]]'s explanation, it's become clear to me that this template serves a legitimate purpose, so I'm changing my vote.</s> &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 06:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Still unnecessary. If a more specific spoiler tag is needed, ''maybe'' having a "spoilerabout" that would have a blank to fill so it could be useful, but even then I'm not too sure. --[[User:Sketchee|Sketchee]] 07:08, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', <s>agree with nominator. {{tl|spoiler}} is enough.</s> -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 15:27, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::How is {{tl|spoiler}} enough? It doesn't warn readers of the fact that the article contains spoilers for entities other than the titular subject. I didn't recognize this application until [[User:CheNuevara|Che Nuevara]] explained it, but now I feel that this template's deletion would be a significant disservice to many fans. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 15:48, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::Now that I look over it again, I see your point, but I still believe the template should be deleted. I think that this purpose would be better served by manually making a note of this. This template doesn't specify what exactly is being 'spoiled'. Note the wording, "some or all of the Whedonverse productions Buffy, Angel, Fray, etc...". If I have seen a couple whedonverse productions, but not all, how will I know if it will be a spoiler for '''me''' or not? On the other hand, if the spoiler template is subst'd in and the different productions that are spoiled are added in, it would be a much greater benefit to the reader. For example, the text might say "This article contains plot details or endings of the Whedonverse productions Buffy, Angel and Fray." This is much more specific, and isn't something that can be done with a template unless all articles contain spoilers for the same productions. I think that there seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding about the use of this template, and I was also guilty of being overly rash when voting delete. However, I'm standing by my original decision, albeit for completely different reasons. Thank you for pointing out my mistake. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 02:54, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::Ah, just realized that there actually is a template to do what I'm saying...in that case this template should be '''deleted''' and '''replaced''' with {{tl|spoiler-other}}. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 11:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''delete''' unnecessary. [[User:Duncharris|Dunc]]|[[User talk:duncharris|&#9786;]] 15:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': I just noticed the following in the [[Wikipedia:Spoiler warning|spoiler warning]] article: ''"If this general purpose template is not suitable for the particular article you are working on, feel free to custom-design your own warning, but please link back to this page."'' While not an official Wikipedia policy, this guideline has been in place since July 7, 2004. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 16:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::In light of this, this template should perhaps be altered to link back to the general spoiler page. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] 16:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::It already does. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 16:18, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*<s>'''Keep''' I also have been convinced by [[User:CheNuevara|Che Nuevara]]'s argument above. However a more generic "spoilerabout" template, as[[User:Sketchee|Sketchee]] suggests, might be a more widely useful construct, and prevent the proliferation of specialized spoiler templates, or this template could then call "spoilerabout" with the parameter filled in. </s> [[User:DESiegel|DES]] 16:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::I agree that this is a good idea, and I've created {{tl|spoiler-other}}. [[User_talk:Lifeisunfair#.26.23123.3B.26.23123.3Bspoiler-other.26.23125.3B.26.23125.3B_template|Here's an example of its application.]] &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 16:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::Now '''that''' is useful. Good job. --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]]) 16:48, 2005 Jun 21 (UTC)

*Now that we have {{tl|spoiler-other}} and {{tl|spoiler-about}} this becomes redudndant, so I am changing my vote to '''Delete''' ''provided'' that both of those templates survive TfD. Also, ''if'' this template were modified to simply call spoiler-other or spoiler-about, I wouldn't object to it. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] 14:40, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', following a reasonable phase-out period (allowing appropriate replacement with {{tl|spoiler-about}} and {{tl|spoiler-other}}). Like [[User:DESiegel|DESiegel]]'s vote, mine is contingent upon the non-deletion of the aforementioned templates. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 14:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - {{tl|Spoiler}} and {{tl|Spoiler-about}} are all we need. - [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 18:02, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', as per [[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]]. [[User:Shem Daimwood|Shem]]^{[[User talk:Shem Daimwood|(talk)]]} 18:08, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Ship table]] and associated sub-tables====

This ship infobox is a cute piece of engineering. Through the use of templates, meta-templates, and sub-templates, it is able to show only those parts of the infobox that are appropriate for the ship in question. For example, if "range" is an inapplicable parameter for describing the ship, the "range" infobox entry won't be there. Unfortunately, the infobox is also an abomination on the face of the Earth. By moving content out of article space and into templates such as [[Template:Ship displacement box Pyro class ammunition ship]], it makes it much harder to change the infobox. Adding information is also harder: I tried adding information to the infobox for [[USS Nitro (AE-2)]], but could only produce redlinks such as [[Template:Ship speed box 16 knots]]. It also runs afoul of some of the problems mentioned at [[Wikipedia:Avoid using meta-templates]]. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 21:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* '''Keep'''. I corrected the faults with templates that were raised on my user page almost a month ago. Carnildo complained that some of the templates I used were not for boilerplate information shared between articles, but for content from a single article. In a number of cases that charge was true. I therefore altered the articles in question and deleted the templates concerned. ''All'' of the templates associated with that ship table template are now either currently referenced in multiple articles as boilerplate text, or potentially will be when articles for the rest of the ship class concerned are written. There is a full set of instructions on how to use the templates at the Wikiproject for ships. I had them in prototype form for over a month before deploying them precisely so that concerns over what rows should be in the table could be addressed. The problems in avoiding the use of meta-templates are a concern, but I would say that they are not a big enough concern to delete all the tables. <br><br>In summary, the templates are used for boilerplate text that is shared between articles. The templates for the table markup itself are an attempt to bring uniformity, flexibility and ease of maintenance to the arena of ship tables. The templates for the content are meant to be shared between multiple members of the same class of warship, reducing maintenance for those articles and increasing content richness. [[User:David Newton|David Newton]] 02:14, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' - I will admit that editing the information in for this templete is at times develishly hard to do, if it isn't outright impossible; however, the ship table is by far the most asthetically pleasing table I have seen, and it does present a wealth of usefull material related to the ships. Deleting this templete and its associated templetes would be a very bad move. Besides, I don't see that you have presented any alternatives to this so-called "...abomination on the face of the Earth"; If you are going to demand it be deleted you should also propose an alternative to the current version. [[User:TomStar81|TomStar81]] 03:09, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**How about a more traditional infobox, similar to [[Template:Battlebox]] and [[Template:Tank]], or if you want something complex, how about a system similar to the infobox template set [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Airports]] uses? --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 03:51, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::If I could have made the markup and syntax more simple and retained the functionality I would have done. One thing that does seem to confuse some people is the name of the variables. That may well need looking at to improve the functionality. The complicated bit with this table is the optional rows. I'm trying to get a way of doing it that both allows specification of optional rows and keeps the rows in the same order for consistency. With this set of templates we're bumping right up against the limits of the functionality of the Wikipedia templates system. If the extended template syntax could be implemented, allowing optional rows to be specified for templates, then it would make things a good deal easier. [[User:David Newton|David Newton]] 12:12, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Ouch!'''. Subst, delete, and restart from scratch. Try to avoid meta-templates, obfuscative subtemplating, and templates masquerading as article text. Three strikes, you're out. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 09:25, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Move-To-Memory-Alpha]]====

It says that some articles "do not belong in the Wikipedia" and that their "proper ___location" is in another Wiki instead. Memory Alpha [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Memory_Alpha:Why_Memory_Alpha_doesn't_use_the_GFDL does not use the GFDL], so I don't believe articles can be moved to it. - [[User:Brian Kendig|Brian Kendig]] 19:26, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', non-GFDL wiki. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 04:02, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. non-SisterProject. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 05:23, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep, but use on talk pages'''. I like templates that that make people realize that [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information|Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information]]. &mdash; [[User:Mark Dingemanse|mark]] [[User Talk:Mark Dingemanse|&#9998;]] 09:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. <tt>'''~'''[[User:Leif|leif]]</tt> &#9786; _{([[User_talk:Leif|talk]])} 09:23, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Fuzzy actor]]====

This template was meant to be a link to [http://voices.fuzzy.com/ voices.fuzzy.com] much like the IMDB template links to imdb.com. Fuzzy.com is a database of voice actor credits, but it's notoriously unreliable; anyone can submit new credits to be visible immediately, but no one can delete wrong information, and it's not maintained. As a result it's got (for example) [http://voices.fuzzy.com/actor.idc?actor_id=10093 six voice credits for George Bush]. I don't trust the information in this database, and I don't think it should be linked from Wikipedia. - [[User:Brian Kendig|Brian Kendig]] 18:50, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. For all the reasons listed by [[User:Brian Kendig|Brian Kendig]]. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 05:25, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' I created it, was unware of the reliability. Still think we need a standarized template for voice actors, if voicechasers.com is anymore reliable, or any other db. [[User:Who|<font color=#FF0033><></font>Who]][[User talk:Who|<font color=#00Ff00>?</font><font color=#FF00FF>&iquest;</font><font color=#0033FF>?</font>]] 03:56, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Recycling]]====

Half red-links, and at least one thing on it is a redirect to [[Recycling]]. First get your series of articles, then you can have your article series box. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 15:16, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Encourages further development and no real harm. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 16:14, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', erroneous argument for deletion. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 18:47, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Just because some of the links are red does not necessarily mean you should get rid of the entire template. You can just remove those links. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 04:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Categorify''', this is not a good series box as it has no meaningful ordering other than alphabetical. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 09:15, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' and replace with a category. - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 00:26, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Categorify''' as per Radiant%21. &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] [[User_talk:SebastianHelm|(talk)]] 03:21, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

====[[Template:Personal]]====

{{personal}}

Our policy against personal attacks applies to all of Wikipedia, not just to a few talk pages with this template. [[User:Raul654|&rarr;Raul654]] 01:53, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

:In light of this objection, [[User:Lifeisunfair]] proposed a change, and I implemented it. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 03:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* Delete. [[User:Raul654|&rarr;Raul654]] 01:53, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

* '''Note:''' This template is also being discussed at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Personal attacks on controversial pages]]. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 01:59, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* '''Keep''' - considering I have only just created it and we are still discussing it on [[WP:BP]], [[WP:AN]] and [[WP:NPA]], I'm a bit suprised that this is up for deletion. I could move it to a subpage of [[WP:NPA]] for the time being, however. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 02:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**Further: We don't currently have a blocking rule that immediately blocks personal attacks, nor should we. People must get a warning. However, on certain controversial articles, such as Jihad, there are editors who create sock puppets and edit anonymously - all done on purpose. They target these articles and therefore I feel that a specific warning message (this template) should be added to the article, noting that we won't accept personal attacks in the article. This would be the warning that editors are given, and will mean that they have no excuse for making personal attacks - excuses like "But you never warned me!". - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 02:19, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. I think it could help to calm down some of the more volatile talk pages. On the Islam-related ones recently, there has been some really unpleasant stuff, more so than usual. Anything that might help is welcome, in my view. Admins could be advised to use it sparingly. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 02:27, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' or '''userfy''' if the proposal goes nowhere. [[User:BrokenSegue|This link is]] [[User talk:BrokenSegue|'''B'''roken]] 03:11, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', but revise to something along the lines of [[Template_talk:Personal#Proposed_changes|this]]. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 03:14, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**Done. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 03:48, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. The person posting the template has no right to threaten someone with being blocked. People know the policy and administrators know when to block. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:22, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

**Good point. However, this is part of the policy change. We could make it clear in the [[Wikipedia:No personal attack]] policy that only admins can place this on the article's talk page when a clear majority of admins agree that this is the only way of proceding forward with discussion. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 03:48, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Explicit reminder, especially to newcomers, to cool their jets when they head straight to topics that interest/obsess them particularly. --[[User:Calton|Calton]] | [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 04:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Though I would like to see the template in a smaller form. -- [[User:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 11:18, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

**The template ''was'' in a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Personal&oldid=15324298 smaller form] until [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] addressed [[User:Raul654|Raul654]]'s criticism by implementing my [[Template_talk:Personal#Proposed_changes|proposed]] modifications. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 13:23, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*I don't really see the point of it, but at any rate it should be reworded as it's far too long. '' It has been decided that this message shall serve as irrefutable notification'' is too bureaucratese. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 12:00, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

**It's only fair to point out that I'm responsible for the sentence in question, which is among the additions that I [[Template_talk:Personal#Proposed_changes|proposed]] (and [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] promptly implemented) in response to this discussion. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Personal&oldid=15324298 The previous version] was significantly shorter, but it generated the complaint of ambiguity on which [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] based his deletion proposal. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 13:23, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**While I didn't actually make that up, I agree with that sentence you quote because this is the purpose of this template: to give fair warning to all anonymous editors and sock puppets (!) that they will be blocked for personal attacks. Ever tried to warn suspected sock puppets? They ''always'' say they aren't sock puppets, even if they are. With a global warning on the contentious talk page, no warning needs to be given to them explicitly. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 02:58, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep, but copy-edit'''. There are too many Talk pages on the Wikipedia that need this reminder to be [[Wikipedia:Civility|civil]]. Many of the articles where there is a dispute over the title of the article, for example. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 12:52, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*:Also, '''this is a policy decision''', so it really shouldn't be handled here at TFD. [[User:Ta bu shi da yu]] should create a Wikipedia policy proposal for using the template, or find some other Wikipedia forum for discussing the use of the template and then should see if there is any consensus for its use. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 11:48, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' because it still suggests personal attacks are more acceptable some places than others. Support the underlying move towards blocking for personal attacks, however. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 15:15, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

**With all due respect to Snowspinner, I disagree. This template doesn't do anything of the sort, especially with the bolded warning on the bottom. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 02:58, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. This is a "symptom" template, not a "disease" template. :) When would it be appropriate to use this template instead of one of the more focused [[:Template:POV]], [[:Template:TitleDisputed]], or just a simple comment "No personal attacks, please"? Ditto Snowspinner's and Superm401's comments too: this template feels like a weapon. And if only admins can use it... can't admins protect pages and/or archive or delete insults anyway? --[[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 17:05, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**No, I'm afraid that NPOV and TitleDisputed templates would not be sufficient. Neither of those talk about personal attacks, and neither of those give a specific warning that you could be blocked on site for making personal attacks. As for using it as a weapon: that is something that the policy changes will address and prevent. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 02:58, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. I can't see any harm, and if it reminds just one User not to engage in personal attacks, it will have come out on the credit side. [[User:Mel Etitis|Mel Etitis]] ([[User talk:Mel Etitis|<font color="green">&Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf;</font>)]] 18:36, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*<strike>'''Delete.''' It wastes a lot of space on the page, and I don't think it's going to deter anyone from personal attacks. And I don't like the language it uses. Maybe it's ''not'' difficult for me to write neutrally about this topic? What does "irrefutable notification" mean? Does it give carte blanche for an administrator to block any user whose tone he doesn't like? What's the difference in how an article is handled when it does or doesn't have this template on it? Don't the statements in this template apply to EVERY article? If personal attacks are "prohibited throughout the Wikipedia site," then why post a warning like this in the first place? - [[User:Brian Kendig|Brian Kendig]] 18:57, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)</strike>

**Did you read [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]]'s remarks? This template is for use in conjunction with a newly proposed policy (which has not yet taken effect). In my opinion, this deletion vote is premature. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:24, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

** It hardly wastes any space on the top of the page, so can't agree with that argument. As for whether it is not difficult to write neutrally about a particular topic: well, all I can say is that the Personal template is not going to be used on those articles! However, if you are implying that it is easy to write neutrally about ''any'' topic, I would ''love'' to see you editing [[Jihad]], because that page sure as heck needs all the help it can get! I'd like to note, for the record, that I wish I didn't ''have'' to create this template and that we could all just get along, but after being on Wikipedia for quite some time now and having viewed some tinderbox articles, I know that is just not the case. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 03:03, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

***I'll change my vote to '''Keep''', now that the vague language has been excised. I believe the template has become more clear about its purpose: to remind users they should always be civil, but to specifically tell them that they'll be blocked if they prolong personal conflicts on a talk page which bears this template. I just finished some edits to bring it more in line with this purpose. - [[User:Brian Kendig|Brian Kendig]] 04:04, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' but clarify policy. -- [[User:Nyenyec|nyenyec]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Nyenyec|&#9742;]] 01:00, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' a very bad idea [[User:Grue|<font style="background: black" face="Courier" color=#FFFFFF>'''&nbsp;Grue&nbsp;'''</font>]] 09:31, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep or Modify'''. I don't know how, but I also think it seems a little like personal attacks are more allowed on some pages than others. It ''is'' a good idea though, reminding some wikipedians about the Rule of No Personal Attacks. // [[User:Mathew|'''M'''a'''th'''e'''w''']] 10:05, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:(disambiguation)]]====

This is a near-duplicate of the existing and widely used [[:Template:disambig]]. I don't know why it was created. I've removed all references to it. [[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 01:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:This template ''is intended to be a '''''near''''' duplicate''. It <u>excludes</u> the instruction to go and fix the linking article. [[User:Josh Parris|Josh Parris]] [[User_talk:Josh Parris|&#9993;]] 02:55, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:And why should it? [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:24, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

::See [[fish]] and [[fish (disambiguation)]]. Intentional linking to (disambiguation) pages does happen - such as [[Hex (Discworld)]] linking to [[bug (disambiguation)]]. [[User:Josh Parris|Josh Parris]] [[User_talk:Josh Parris|&#9993;]] 04:28, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' [[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 01:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' It excludes the instruction to go and fix the linking article. It's intended to go on ''Topic (disambiguation)'' pages, where ''Topic'' includes a link to ''Topic (disambiguation)''. No-one's ever going to accidentally link to those pages. [[User:Josh Parris|Josh Parris]] [[User_talk:Josh Parris|&#9993;]] 01:29, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* Delete. [[User:Raul654|&rarr;Raul654]] 01:53, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', redundant, silly name. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 01:57, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Unnecessary with [[Template:disambig]]. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:24, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', don't make template forks. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 12:01, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Merge''' I like the picture and the wording of this. Why not merge it with [[:Template:disambig]]. --[[User:Michael180|michael180]] 14:48, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

**Comment: see [[Template talk:disambig]]. [[User:Susvolans|Susvolans]] [[User talk:Susvolans|(pigs can fly)]] 17:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep or Merge''' Could this template be merged with [[:Template:disambig]] so that there ais a paramete that controls whethr or not to include the request to fix links? Otherwis many people won't ralize tht both templates exist, adn mys use the wrong one. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] 21:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Merge''' The picture and text box make it more noticable. [[User:Tastywheat|Tastywheat]] 09:27, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', yes, don't make template forks, but I like this one better than {{tl|disambig}}. [[User:Phoenix2|Phoenix2]] 03:24, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep or Rename''': The distinction between wanted and unwanted disambiguation pages is important. Ideally, this should be clear from the template's name. Proposed name: "disambig_intentional". "Don't make template forks" is all very nice, but since templates don't allow default values (correct me if I'm wrong) we would have to add a parameter to several thousand existing implementations of Template:disambig. &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] [[User_talk:SebastianHelm|(talk)]] 03:49, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Template fork. I also think this one is better than &#123;&#123;[[Template:disambig|disambig]]&#125;&#125; but that should be discussed elsewhere.--[[User:Nabla|Nabla]] 04:28, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

====[[Template:WiktionaryWord]]====

This is an exact duplicate of the existing and widely used [[:Template:wiktionarypar]]. I don't know why it was created. I've removed all references to it. [[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 01:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Maybe it was created because there's no documentation pointing to [[:Template:wiktionarypar]]? Fix the problem, not the solution!

::Both are fixed now. --[[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 01:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete''' [[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 01:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete'''. No reason for duplicate. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:24, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete''' [[User:Josh Parris|Josh Parris]] [[User_talk:Josh Parris|&#9993;]] 04:29, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete''' or perhaps '''redirect'''. I understand why someone might want to call this template WiktionaryWord. Does anyone know what the "par" in Wiktionarypar is meant to indicate? It's not really what I would have thought of when looking for a template like this. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 04:54, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

** '''par'''ameter. I agree the nomenclature sucks somewhat but unfortunately this problem got lost in the noise over meta-templates. --[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 14:58, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', don't make template forks. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 12:01, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete''': redundant. --[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 14:58, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

===June 16===

====[[Template:Googletest]]====

Extremely blatant template that was spammed all over VFD and that reads 'this articles should be googletested'. It completely destroys legibility of VFD, and googletest isn't an accepted standard anyway. I've temporarily blanked the template to make VFD more legible, you can view its likeness on its talk page. '''Delete'''. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 16:13, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' This template should be ambushed at the pass. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 16:22, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. I despair at the sight of the dreaded Google test. The last thing we need is an official-looking template encouraging everyone to use it. &mdash; [[User:Trilobite|Trilobite]] ([[User_talk:Trilobite|Talk]]) 16:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Kill Google! [[User:smoddy|smoddy]] 17:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' cluttering up VfD page. &mdash;[[User:Wahoofive|Wahoofive]] ([[User talk:Wahoofive|talk]]) 17:54, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Google tests are useful in many situations, but using it as sole reasoning for a VfD vote is not a good thing, and using an official-looking template to perform it is even worse. It's been <tt>subst:</tt>ed in, so if you want to remove the boxes, it'll have to be done manually. <font color=#00A86B>[[User:Android79|<small>A</small>&#1080;<small>D</small>&#1103;<small>01D</small>]]</font><font color=#B87333>[[User talk:Android79|<small>TALK</small>]]</font><font color=#0047AB>[[Special:Emailuser/Android79|<small>EMAIL</small>]]</font> 17:58, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Painfully counterproductive! &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 18:01, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. ASAP --[[User:Tabor|Tabor]] 19:09, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rewrite?'''. That template needs to go away, but I am wondering if there might be constructive uses for a template embodying the google test concept, since some people will inevitable continue to use the test regardless of whether it is generally accepted. I would suggest something like:

*:<nowiki>[[Wikipedia:Google test|Google test]]: A search on ''{{{query}}}'' produces {{{number}}} results [http://www.google.com?q={{{query}}}].</nowiki>

*:[[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 19:25, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rewrite''' to something less voluminous. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|^(talk)]] 19:32, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete [[googol]] times'''. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|&#9997;]] 20:04, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''''. Manual google tests can always be done. This is just a waste of space. Furthermore, I think people do enough google tests without encouragement. What the web contains is just as arbitrary as what Wikipedia has, and has nothing to do with what a good encyclopeid should contain. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:20, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Manual google tests are better than automated ones anyway, since simply googling the article's name is rarely a reliable way of using an already only vaguely reliable test. Most more effective google tests use a combination of words from the article - something unlikely to be automatable. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 00:14, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Crank]]====

Probably speedy delete candidate, but I am still listing it here. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 15:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 15:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' I agree, not a speedy. But personal attacks, unwiki, self-referential. What more do you want? [[User:smoddy|smoddy]] 17:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

** Personal attacks? Noting that a certain idea is generally rejected hardly constitutes a "personal attack" as such. Certainly, proponents of such an idea may be offended by stating that, but it's true nonetheless--and important. As for as "unwiki" and "self-referential", well, what the hell are you talking about? [[User:Kmweber|Kurt Weber]] 21:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' What's wrong with it? If a certain topic discussed in WP is at odds with what is generally held to be true by the vast majority of experts in its particular field, it should be marked as such. [[User:Kmweber|Kurt Weber]] 18:14, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**If it is such, then it should either be explained in the text or listed for deletion, circumstances depending. In short, we should be able to ''tell'' what this template says, without the template itself. [[User:smoddy|smoddy]] 18:21, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

***"If it is such, then it should either be explained in the text"--yes, and that's what the template does--explain up front that the idea isn't widely accepted. That it lacks widespread acceptance does not in and of itself make it unworthy for inclusion. [[User:Kmweber|Kurt Weber]] 21:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

****No, what this template does is effectively allow a fork of an article, with a disclaimer at the bottom. The "crankiness" of the article should be shown by writing, not by a generic boilerplate. It is wonderfully unobtrusive. So unobtrusive that you won't notice it. And no, I don't want you to make it big and orange. [[User:smoddy|smoddy]] 21:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Will only lead to arguments and edit wars about its inclusion, rather than reaching NPOV/consensus form of article. --[[User:Tabor|Tabor]] 19:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**I fail to see how that constitutes a valid reason for deleting it.[[User:Kmweber|Kurt Weber]] 21:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', if it's complete nonsense or rubbish, it should be deleted. No need to template tag such a thing. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|^(talk)]] 19:30, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

**That a certain idea or proposition is a crank does not mean it is "complete nonsense or rubbish". It simply means that, as I stated above, it "is at odds with what is generally held to be true by the vast majority of experts in its particular field". There's a big difference. [[User:Kmweber|Kurt Weber]] 20:56, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. This is just an excuse for non-NPOV. The use of a template at the top lends an unnecessary official air. If a view is considered incorrect by experts, the article should explain that fact, and all details about it. For example, it should say when the perspective began to be viewed as invalid. It must mention any reasons this is thought to be true. It should mention any rebuttals to the claim it is flawed. It shouldn't just have a boilerplate notice that condemns the idea before the article begins. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:28, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Unhelpful, and huge potential for edit-warring. [[User:Mel Etitis|Mel Etitis]] ([[User talk:Mel Etitis|<font color="green">&Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf;</font>)]] 18:41, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Copyrightproblem]]====

Somebody apparently wanted to create the ultimate minimalist version of {{tl|copyvio}}, including not having a category. Unused. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 11:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 11:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', copyright violations should be marked with big screaming boxes, not meekly whispered about. --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]]) 11:57, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC)

*'''Comment'''. The template creates <nowiki>"[[Internal Link]] from [External Link]"</nowiki>. If I had to guess, it's not meant to be used on copyvio pages, but rather substed into their entries on [[WP:CP]]. Of course, I don't see how it actually saves any appreciable amount of effort.... --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 12:20, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*If this thing is suppose to be used the write entries on [[WP:CP]] then '''Userfy''' this. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 17:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*I was doing a lot of copyvio work, and it did make it a bit easier for me, but not enough to matter, so (as, apparently, the only user) I don't care one way or another. --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]][[User talk:Jpgordon|&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710;]] 18:41, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*:I've been doing some rather random checking of the Template namespace recently. Besides the [[WP:PN|Patent nonsense]] that can be speedy deleted, and the unused templates that can be TFD'd, I am finding quite a few templates that could be very useful for other editors if they had some documentation on their Talk page or elsewhere. If you are still using this template, I will change my delete vote. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 11:34, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*::Is there a place here for publicizing Possibly Useful Templates? Anyway, I've not been using it recently, but only because I've not been on new page patrol. (well, also because I forgot I had created it.) --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]][[User talk:Jpgordon|&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710;]] 21:16, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*:::The only one I know of is [[User:CesarB/Special effects templates|mine]]. If anyone knows of others, tell me. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 21:24, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**The most suitable place for advertising a template would probably be the [[WP:VP|village pump]]. CesarB -- I find your list rather useful, and would like to ask if you would consider putting it in Wikispace along with [[Wikipedia:Template messages]]. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 01:21, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

***Besides adding a template to [[Wikipedia:Template messages]] and publicizing the template in those places where they would be found useful ([[WP:CP]] for this template), I think that most templates should get some sort of documentation of the template's uses and parameters on the template's Talk page, although probably less than 5% currently have any such documentation. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 04:35, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

====[[Template:Crap]] and associated [[:Category:Crap]]====

Unnecessarily confrontative and redundant with [[Template:cleanup-rewrite]] and/or [[Template:Attention]]. I've put a pointer on [[WP:CFD]] to discuss [[:Category:Crap]] here. --[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 10:36, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

'''''Warning''''': I have commented on a number of the keep votes. [[User:Thodin]] has proceeded to move my comments to other votes. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 12:32, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Confrontive, uncivil, not needed. Note also that [[User:Thodin]] has removed the <nowiki>{{cfd}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{tfd}}</nowiki> tags citing them to be "vandalism". [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 10:54, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'' Why...

** 1. Funny

** 2. You can't vfd everything.

** 3. It's specific that an article needs serious rewriting--not just needs attention, but needs it badly.

** 4. Sometimes a person will be the first to create a topic and that first creation will be bad. However, the topic must say but be completely rewritten.

** 5. Another wiki already uses it to useful effect: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/

** 6. This tag is far articles with more serious problems than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_articles_needing_rewrite Articles tagged as crap are on the verge of being deleted because they are so bad and need immediate rewrites. This is opposed to the ones with the cleanup-rewrite tag that can sit in wikipedia for eons without anyone rewriting them but while also escaping deletion. Basically those with cleanup-rewrite should not get this tag. This tag is for ones that are on the verge of deletion.

** 7. Too many articles get tagged as "nonsense" when they're not nonsense, they just are in desperate need of a rewrite.

** 8. Only things for speedy deletion have gotten this tag so far. Things tagged with cleanup-rewrite get kept and are not about to be speedied.

** 9. People like [[User:Cryptic]] who like to mark pages for deletion instead of reading discussion. Actions like his border on vandalism because he didn't read talk pages first.

** 10. This tag has helped reform many pages that have been about to be speedied, but once they rewrote it the pages were fine. LIST: [[General_Council_of_the_Valleys]],

** 11. User Crptic has been going around spamming pages with delete links all day and night. See his contribs.

:[[User:Thodin|Thodin]] 10:58, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::What about [[Template:Cleanup-importance]]? Some editors including me use that tag. It is less confrontational than [[Template:Crap]]. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 11:04, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Your definitions of "vandalism" and "spamming" are utterly bizarre, [[User:Thodin|Thodin]]. And contrary to the belief implied by one of your edit summaries, one needn't be an admin to propose a template's deletion. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 11:55, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:*The fact that it's used on Encyclopædia Dramatica doesn't mean it works here. It works on æ because æ is a humor site. (And not a [[Wikimedia]] wiki, by the way.) WP is an encyclopedia, and "crap", in this sense, is unencyclopedic. '''Delete'''. I was rather amused to see it here, though. [[User:SwissCelt|SwissCelt]] 13:37, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Redundant. Could be used in ways that break the policies of [[Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers|not biting the newcomers]], [[Wikipedia:Wikiquette|Wikiquette]], [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|no personal attacks]], and [[Wikipedia:Civility|civility]]. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 11:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*Being the person who reformed [[General Council of the Valleys]], I can assure you that the "this article is crap" had nothing to do with it; I found that page going through recent-changes (patrolling for articles to mark as speedy-delete, in fact). It's surplus; I've only noticed it on articles already tagged as speedy - and, for that matter, invariably ones which are about to be deleted. I can think of no niche this template fills that isn't already covered,so implementing it will lead to further confusion and splitting of effort. And, yeah, there's the stylistic apsects. "This article needs rewriting" is a hell of a lot more polite than "this article is crap", and ''conveys the same information''. Please, '''delete''' this... [[User:Shimgray|Shimgray]] 12:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) (forgot to sign!)

*'''Delete'''. While we definitely need cleanup templates, calling articles "crap"; is not the way to go about it. [[User:Kelly Martin|Kelly Martin]] 11:23, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Calling articles crap is needlessly confrontational and breaks loads of civility guidelines. Also, we've already got cleanup-rewrite and attention, which should work just as fine. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|^(talk)]] 11:26, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. This template is redundant, offensive and patently absurd. &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 11:38, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' Calling an article "nonsense" is more offensive than calling it crap. At least with "crap" you can say it's poorly written but the subject matter is good, but "nonsense" is also an insult to the subject matter. Calling articles "nonsense" happens constantly, whether or not the articles are nonsense at all. [[User:Hhamadraad|Hhamadraad]] 11:55, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**<small>User's second edit. The first was to create a userpage. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 12:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) </small>

*'''Keep''' Just too many people deleting pages instead of editing them [[User:Alapretes|Alapretes]] 12:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**<small>User's second edit. The first was to create a userpage. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 12:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) </small>

*'''Keep''' It was put up without any discussion. [[User:ArchmageGwidon|ArchmageGwidon]] 12:11, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**<small>User's second, third and fourth edits. The first was to create a userpage. Also removed my comments on the last two keep votes. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 12:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) </small>

:This IS the discussion. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:39, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Offenensive. It does have a purpose, but this is not the way to make a point. -- [[User:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 12:15, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. This template is [[crap]], just like much of the parody wiki, http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/, that it came from (so I can see why it's used there). [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 12:27, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' The worst insult is for someone to mark something you wrote for deletion. I'd rather be called crap. [[User:MiddaSantaClaus|MiddaSantaClaus]] 12:27, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**<small> Account was created 8 minutes before casting this vote. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 12:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) </small>

*'''Delete''', we have perfectly good cleanup tags that don't go out of their way to insult the content. --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]]) 12:28, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Not needed; just list it for cleanup and the [[Wikipedia:Cleanup Taskforce]] will queue it. [[User:Linuxbeak|Linuxbeak]] | [[User_talk:Linuxbeak|Talk]] | [[User:Linuxbeak/Desk|Desk]] 12:29, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Too redundant with above mentioned templates/categories. I would also try and keep the language cleaner on an encyclopedia. --[[User:Michael180|michael180]] 13:23, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Gratuitously uncivil and insulting, although I agree "nonsense" is often used the same way. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 13:37, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Labelling an article "crap", whilst it may be true in some cases, is certainly not the kind of definition I'd expect to see on an article, let alone as a standard template on Wikipedia. --[[User:Dave2|Dave2]] 14:36, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete''' with the same extreme prejudice as might lead someone to apply this to an article. --[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 15:05, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete''', unnecessary and confrontational. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 17:36, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' both template and category. --[[User:Kbdank71|Kbdank71]] 18:21, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''<font color=red><big>SUPER DELETE</big></font>''' - Offensive and redundant. [[User:Andros 1337|Andros 1337]] 21:11, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Obvious delete''' - [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 21:47, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - simply because of the use of [[sockpuppets]]. [[User:Bastique|<font size=+1>{{unicode|&#08492;}}</font>astique]]<font style="color:#FF72E3;">{{unicode|&#09660;}}</font>[[User talk:Bastique|'''^talk''']] 03:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - redundant, needlessly vulgar, confrontational. Also, encourages complete rewrite when this is rarely necessary. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:35, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' - add to BJAODN regardless of the result. -- [[User:Kizor|Kizor]] 11:13, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Do not BJAODN. POV template, and sockpuppet limit reached (apologies to [[User:RickK|RickK]]). --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 00:41, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' because it honors me and my template-creating artistry. --[[User:Aussieintn|Aussieintn]] 15:24, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Insulting and against Wikipedia spirit. Whoever did this deserves to read the rules until his eyes bleed. [[User:Sarg|Sarg]] 15:33, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Joke, very redundant. --[[User:Mateusc|Mateusc]] 17:13, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Redundant and offensive. [[User:Angela|Angela]][[user talk:Angela|.]] 21:16, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

===June 15===

====[[Template:SCD]]====

Basically, it's a disclaimer stating that some items in the category it's on may in fact be miscategorized. That sounds trivially obvious for just about any category; and looking at whatlinkshere I'd say most of the ~25 cats it's on should be renamed which would fix the problem. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 14:46, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

*'''del''', this vote may not reclassified --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 16:09, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment'''. Although I don't really like the wording, I know what the template is trying to do. There have been a number of HUGE edit wars over how some people have been classified (such as, is [[Grace Kelly]] a [[Gay icon]]), so this template is an attempt to defuse those arguments. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 18:35, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' - major issues have been solved by this template (among others: continuous renaming votes for ~25 categories relating to ''people'' - as if ''renaming'' were the "simple" solution for those categories). See [[wikipedia:categorization of people]] (and: [[wikipedia talk:categorization of people]]) for how to use the template & apply it correctly. Further: [[wikipedia:categorization of people]] went through ample procedure before acceptance, and the "SCD" template is part of that guideline, so it is a bit contradictory to cripple the guideline by removing the template. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 21:11, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

**Okay, in that case it should be edited to resemble {{tl|disputed}}, and state something like "the listing of some topics in this category is '''disputed'''". But actually, the dispute is in the articles, not the category, so I'd still prefer discussing it there. I see no real consensus on the talk page you mention; this was just inserted by a few people, but it's hardly official. Disputes should be resolved, not covered under a disclaimer. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 09:11, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

***Dear Radiant, a little less instruction creep would be welcome: not all templates that make wikipedia run smoothly should resemble one another. The '''is disputed''' formulation was tried for the SCD template when we worked with several people on [[wikipedia:categorization of people]], and was rejected for reasons still available FYR at [[wikipedia talk:categorization of people]] (shortcut to the relevant section: [[Wikipedia_talk:Categorization_of_people#The_.22Subjective_Category_Disclaimer.22]]). I don't think I need to discuss this with someone who didn't read that guideline and the adjoining talk page. Feel free to take part in the discussion on that talk page if you have new ideas that would be able to solve issues even smoother. My only problem with the SCD template presently is that its name is maybe not completely in line with its present content. But I nearly didn't dare to speak my opinion on that matter, for fear this would lead to more complication instead of simplification (and because I don't have a better name ready). --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 08:15, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

****That was not intended as instruction creep, but simply based on the fact that the template's wording does not at all make it clear what it's for. Unless everyone who sees the template reads the discussion you've mentioned first, they are not necessarily going to understand it. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 09:28, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

*****Presumably none of the templates labeled on this page as "instruction creep" were '''''intended''''' as instruction creep by the original author(s). So don't take it too bad if I call uniformising all templates to about the same template as the real ''creepy'' instruction creep. Further the template, which I reprint here with your permission, has only '''one''' link, which is to the ''categorization of people'' guideline, which guideline states in the intro that the SCD template is explained ''in short'' on the same page and ''in detail'' on the talk page (with clickable link to that talk page). So are you really serious that you listed that template on TfD '''''before clicking that link'''''? Or without reading [[template talk:SCD]], which '''only''' contains a link to that same talk page? If I wouldn't understand what the template was about that would be the first things I'd do, as would, I suppose, most wikipedians. So I don't think you're really making a point here. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 19:57, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::{|-

|<div class="boilerplate metadata plainlinks" id="tfd" style="background-color: transparent; padding: 0; font-size:xx-small; color:#000000; text-align: center; border-bottom:1px solid #AAAAAA;">&lsaquo;The [[Wikipedia:Template messages|template]] below has been proposed for deletion. See [{{SERVER}}/wiki/{{SITENAME}}:Templates_for_deletion#Template:{{{1}}} templates for deletion] to comment and vote.&rsaquo;</div >

<!-- Please reference to this template like this: {{tfd|Toiletpaper}} or {{tfd|City of Guam}}. Mind capitalisation, and do not prefix with "Template:". This allows for the link to direct directly to the correct section of the TFD page. -->

<nowiki><h2>''Disclaimer''</h2></nowiki>

This category may label persons incorrectly. See [[Wikipedia:Categorization of people]] for advice on how to apply categorization to articles relating to people.

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***By analogy, your template is simply stating ''"This template is [[confusing]]. Click [[here]] to find out what it actually means."'' That is not useful. A template should be worded so that it's ''obvious'' what it means. Of course I read the discussion, but that doesn't change the fact that the template itself is not in good shape. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 22:03, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

****It's not ''my'' template. Your comparison/analogy is bogus. "This category may label persons incorrectly." is as '''obvious''' to me as "The template below has been proposed for deletion." I said ''if'' (and only ''if'') some wikipedian gets confused nonetheless (as apparently you did) he knows were to find the answers: ''Categorization of people'' in the first instance, ''TfD'' in the second. One of the chief intentions of the SCD template ''was'' to draw attention to the ''categorization of people'' guideline, so if the first sentence works intriguing in that sense, that's fine by me. If it is your opinion that SCD is not "in good shape" than (again) please raise the issue at [[wikipedia talk:categorization of people]] and/or [[template talk:SCD]] or wherever you think fit, but then we're no longer in a deletion scheme, and it should be only fair you withdrew SCD from this ''deletion'' list (well, I don't want to push that, voting time is nearly over). Recurring to one of your above comments: no, the SCD template was created as part of a strategy to solve endless '''C'''fD votes, not about individual category assignations to wikipedia articles. Some categories became acceptable because of the disclaimer. Note that wikipedia uses several disclaimers - for example, articles describing diseases are only possible because there is a medical disclaimer, so, no, your generalisation that disclaimers are used "to cover up disputes" is not true in general, neither is it applicable to this particular disclaimer. Before attempting to rewrite SCD I would however advise to have a look at these pages, which could give some insights in when SCD proved/proves to be useful (and ''why''):

::::# [[:category:atheists]] (after the category definition had been reworked, SCD was redundant)

::::# [[:category:terrorists]] and [[:category talk:terrorists]] (CfD listings continued, after the category definition had been cleaned up - I'd like to remove the ugly ''preliminary note'' of that category, and only keep SCD or something similar)

::::# etc... see what's going on in [[:category:people|people (sub)categories]] --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 00:03, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*'''Weak keep''', but '''rewrite'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font> ]] 15:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==Holding Cell==

:''Move templates to the appropriate subsection '''here''' to prepare to delete '''if''' process guidelines are met.''

*{{tl|DirectionUndecided}} (6d, 3k)

*{{tl|Undecided}} (6d, 3k)

*[[Template:DirectionUndecidedSection]] (6d, 3k)

*[[Template:Discussion moved to]] (3d, 1k)

*[[Template:Car fuel]] (9d, 0k)

*[[Template:Fuel_Name]] (9d, 0k)

*[[Template:Fuel_name]] (9d, 0k)

*[[Template:esolangs]] (6d, 3k)

*[[Template:And]] (8d, 0k)

===To orphan===

:''These templates need to be deleted, but may still be in use on some pages. Somebody (it doesn't need to be an admin, anyone can do it) should fix and/or remove significant usages from pages so that they can be deleted. Note that simple references to them from Talk: pages need not (and in fact should not) be removed.''

</div>

*[[Template:Caribbean]] (merge/redir to [[Template:West Indies]]

*[[Template:stylehowto]] (obsolete, split into 'style' and 'howto')

**have added notice to split on this template --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 13:00, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== Current discussions ==

===To convert to category===

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j }}}}

:''Templates for which the consensus is that they ought to be converted to categories get put here until the conversion is completed.''

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -1 days }}}}

* ''None at present''

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -2 days }}}}

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -3 days }}}}

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -4 days }}}}

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -5 days }}}}

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -6 days }}}}

{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -7 days }}}}

== Old discussions ==

===Ready to delete===

{{#invoke:XfD old|transclude}}

:''Templates for which consensus to delete has been reached, have been orphaned, and the discussion logged to [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/Deleted]], can be listed here for an admin to delete.''

== ListingsCompleted to logdiscussions ==

''TemplatesA list withof completed discussions whichthat havestill notrequire yetaction beentaken logged;on removethe from''template(s) '''''this'''''— ''pagefor entirelyexample, whena logged.merge Anyonebetween cantwo doinfoboxes this,— notcan justbe an admin; please see the directionsfound at [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletiondiscussion/LogHolding cell|the "Holding Cell"]].''

For an index of all old and archived discussions, see [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/Archives]].

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[[Category:Wikipedia deletion|Templates for deletion]]

[[Category:Non-talk pages with subpages that are automatically signed]]

[[nl:Wikipedia:Te verwijderen sjablonen]]

[[Category:Wikipedia deletion|Templates for discussion]]

[[Category:Wikipedia template administration|Templates for discussion]]

[[Category:Wikipedia discussion]]