Talk:Debian: Difference between revisions

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== Screenshots? ==

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|dykentry= ... that the name of the '''[[Debian]]''' [[operating system]] is a combination of the first names of its creator [[Ian Murdock]] and his then-girlfriend Debra?

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== No longer free software/open source? ==

It includes non-free firmware in the installer. Is this already mentioned? [[User:Alohaidled|Alohaidled]] ([[User talk:Alohaidled|talk]]) 12:21, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to question the usefulness of the screenshots, particularly as they are now - presented as ''Debian Desktops''. This is simply untrue - there is no such thing as a ''Debian Desktop'' - it's KDE, *box, WindowMaker, GNOME, XFCE, or any of a host of others. It's simply not specifically a ''Debian Desktop''. As such, what is the purpose of the inclusion of these screenshots? --[[User:Brother Dysk|Brother Dysk]] 12:01, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

:I do not know if these links

:I somewhat agree, as they were never even "typical" Debian desktops. Nevertheless, it is useful to have screenshots of systems running Debian, and it would be even better if those screenshots had Debian-specific tools displayed, like aptitude. Ultimately, it would also be best if we knew what was running in the screenshots and in all screenshots, but some thoughtless fool neglected to provide any information about the screenshots, neither in the Image: page or in this article. --[[User:Centrx|Centrx]] 01:26, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html

:Agree. I don't think it's useful to have screenshots (at least those) unless someone would really know nothing about GNU/Linux. If one is kept, I suggest a bare Woody with the default DE. I don't even know what it is. I'm removing the old-looking one. I suggest displaying mozilla on debian.org to replace the remaining one.--[[User:Chealer|Chealer]] 22:19, 2005 Feb 12 (UTC)

https://web.archive.org/web/20231102171742/https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html

:Agree. I think having some screenshots is important, as people naturally want to 'see' what they are reading about, even if that doesn't mean much. I agree regarding a useful apt shot. The current one doesn't demonstrate dependency handling (I'll upload an alternative). Perhaps a different desktop shot would be good - e.g. Wmaker out-of-the-box has a 'debian' theme? --[[User:Jdowland|Jon Dowland]] 14:33, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2022/10/msg00001.html

The screenshot doesn't appear as what a user might 'typically' expect from Debian... Perhaps a more generic screenshot of a debian desktop (i.e. the default layout of Gnome before any customisation) would be better? If we wanna show off what Gnome can look like surely that belongs in its own article? --[[User:mattsday|mattsday]] 01:19, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

https://web.archive.org/web/20231102171923/https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2022/10/msg00001.html

:Disagree. This screenshot looks great and is one of the possible ways you can configure Debian. A more productive action would be to create a debian package called "gnome-theme-wikipedia" or something that perfectly recreates the presented desktop. --[[User:Eanschuessler|Ean Schuessler]] 20:30, 9 June 2005 (UTC)

are already mentioned in the article or now, but some information may also need to be changed to reflect the changes in the policy of Debian.

==Old discussions==

===commercial/non-free===

I hope I'm using the talk page correctly.

on http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#TOCCommercial it states:

I do not yet know where I should place this information about the policy change in Debian.

Please don't use ``commercial'' as a synonym for ``non-free.'' That confuses two entirely different issues.

Other users may know where the best place in this article is to place the references.

In the first paragraph the article seems to use ``non-commercial'' as a synonym for ``free.'' Debian doesnt realy have to be non comercial - you can happily charge money for Debain and many commercial distros are based on it. This is a classic confusion with Linux but fairly obviously id false, hence the multitude of commercial linux distros --[[User:Htaccess|Htaccess]]

I think near the top changing

:I agree with you, that "non-commercial" != "free". The core of Debian is non-commercial ''and'' free that's why I added the word "free" to the first sentence. Hope this is o.k. with you --[[User:Marco Krohn|mkrohn]] 15:38 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

"Since its founding,"

:: yup - that makes sense, its pretty clear what it is now, the only issue is that the link to free software includes both free beer and free speech, but thats quite good anyway - as the reader will then understand the difference and probably then realise that Debian is free in both senses. --[[User:Htaccess|Htaccess]]

to

::: non-commercial didn't really make sense there, the pipe link to Free software works fine. --[[User:Shallot|Shallot]] 00:01, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

"Since its founding till 2022,"

And putting the links in a "ref" may be a way to show the change.

=== List of Debian-based distros ===

Though there may be a better way to link to the change.

Should this really be a list of ''all'' Debian-based distributions, which it is fast becoming as many are added to the list? Instead, this purpose is better served by categories, possibly with a link to the appropriate category in section "Related articles", only leaving here a list of the most famous Debian-based distributions or, better yet, no list at all. Distributions that are relevant to the discussion of the article may be linked within its text. --[[User:Centrx|Centrx]] 20:47, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[[User:Other Cody|Other Cody]] ([[User talk:Other Cody|talk]]) 21:19, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

: I say no list at all -- move it all out into a separate article linked from here. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 21:35, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

: I'm sorry but that's not a [[WP:SYNTH|proper synthesis]]. Debian [https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/archive/ distributed] an install image with proprietary firmware long before 2022, and the FSF's disavowal of Debian [https://web.archive.org/web/20090322010846/http://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html also existed] long before that date. "Since its founding" may not be accurate, but "until 2022" is definitely incorrect. [[User:Inclusivedisjunction|inclusivedisjunction]] ([[User talk:Inclusivedisjunction|talk]]) 11:38, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

: Done that. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]]

::I've updated it to a better synthesis that talks about how Debian generally follows FOSS principles but includes some proprietary software. [[User:Dexcube|Dexcube]] ([[User talk:Dexcube|talk]]) 03:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

=== Debian-based distros=Logo ==

The article claims that the "genie bottle" was originally part of the logo and fell out of use. That seems to me to be either misleading or simply incorrect. When the logo was originally designed, there were two versions, one for public use and one for official use. The public use one was the one with the bottle, and the official one was the swirl only. Shortly after that logo design won the competition, it was decided to swap the meaning of both logos (one of the reasons being that is was weird that the official only use logo was a subset of the public one).

I'm much in favor of including a few words about the characteristics of each of the debian-based distros. Would make it much easier to get a quick overview. Reading all subpages is not the same as a quick characterization of each distro with 3-6 words. --[[User:Gwicke|Gabriel Wicke]] 23:42, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The official logo guidelines[https://www.debian.org/logos/index.en.html] still show that the bottle version still exists and is reserved for official use.

So it's not that the bottle version "was effectively superseded", it simply was not the correct logo to use anymore. [[User:Joghurt42|Joghurt42]] ([[User talk:Joghurt42|talk]]) 11:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

: Just make it consistent. --[[User:Shallot|Shallot]] 23:50, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

== No longer GNU/Linux? ==

::I've kept this very short now, i wouldn't mind it being a bit longer for each. Similar to the listing at [[Linux distribution]]. --[[User:Gwicke|Gabriel Wicke]] 00:17, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It seems Debian no longer officially goes by the GNU/Linux name, and has not for quite some time - https://www.debian.org/releases/ Lists 5.0 and before as being "Debian GNU/Linux", but later releases only refer to it as "Debian".

How about [[Lesbian GNU/Linux]] [http://www.lesbian.mine.nu/], it it a real distribution or just some joke? should we list it? --[[User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason|Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]] 17:54, 2004 Jun 26 (UTC)

Other pages on debian.org have also dropped GNU completely, e.g. https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian (no matches for GNU), compared to https://web.archive.org/web/20170609170537/http://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian.

: It's not a real distro, it is a porn retriever with the user interface of apt-get and apt-cache. So, you type porn-get install boobies and it downloads the porn archive it has listed as "boobies". - [[User:Centrx|Centrx]] 19:58, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I therefore propose changing the lede to something along the lines of "'''Debian''' ([[Help:IPA/English|/ˈdɛbiən/]]) is a [[Free and open-source software|free and open source]] [[Linux distribution]], ...." [[User:Quizwammer|Quizwammer]] ([[User talk:Quizwammer|talk]]) 20:21, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

::I'm not sure it is even that- purely in the interests of research, I attempted to d/l it, and actual files were simply not on the site. --[[User:marudubshinki | Maru Dubshinki]]

:I have now made this change [[User:Quizwammer|Quizwammer]] ([[User talk:Quizwammer|talk]]) 19:49, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

=== testing, unstable ===

The "Criticism" section notes the existence of 'testing' as a counter to the criticism that 'stable' is too old. From what I've heard, this isn't the purpose of testing. The testing distribution is for testing, not for users. If you want to stay the most up-to-date with upstream versions, that's what 'unstable' is for. (This is my experience, as well: trying to run 'testing' as a user, you get the worst of both worlds: the instability of 'unstable', and the slow rate of releases of 'stable'.) --Anonymous

: Regardless, the users still widely use testing instead of stable to get newer packages. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 09:37, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

: Check the [http://wooledge.org/~greg/sidfaq.html Sid FAQ]. Broken dependencies, etc. make Sid not recommendable. Stable is currently hard to recommend. There's testing remaining. --[[User:Chealer|Chealer]] 22:19, 2005 Feb 12 (UTC)

::Second Joy. Testing is what any other distro would probably call stable- I never had the slightest problem wi' it. --[[User:marudubshinki | Maru Dubshinki]]

=== Neologism: "debianize" ===

12:56, 26 Aug 2004 68.74.167.117 (Added make-up word "Debianize" -- [e-mail])

* To "[debianize|debianize]:" To fulfill Debian's mission, or to install or experiment with Debian. ([Debianized]) Said of a machine that runs a Debian-based system, or a person who is very much into Debian.

: This is not a place for just-invented words, especially if they don't match the actual most common use in Debian -- to equip an upstream source package with Debian-related stuff so that it can build a (Debian-compliant) [[.deb]]. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 12:27, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

===Categorization===

In response to the most recent edit by Shallot, I erred because I meant to include the category ''Linux distributions'' in the category ''Operating systems'', but forgot. If this had been done, the Debian article inherits the categorization of operating system because it is in the category Linux distributions. With categories, only the most specific categorization should be specified in the article.

Now that I think about it more though, this whole categories business may need some discussion with regard to Linux, GNU/Linux, and distributions. The most pertinent question here might be whether "Linux distributions" ''should'' be in category ''Operating systems''. Another might be whether all the Linux distributions should instead be categorized as ''GNU/Linux distributions''. Another might be whether there should be a general category ''GNU/Linux'' for all things Linux, with the category ''Linux'' being only for kernel-related items. Alternatively, ''Linux'' might be the larger category with only free-software- and GNU-related items in ''GNU/Linux''. And so forth... --[[User:Centrx|Centrx]] 20:32, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

: Another editor subcategorized the operating system category in the meantime it seems. I guess it's okay now. --[[User:Shallot|Shallot]] 12:25, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

===Featured Article candidacy (not promoted)===

==== (Contested -- Jul 1) [[Debian]] ====

I'd like to nominate this article since it contains a fair amount of detail and information on the subject -- certainly more than I would have expected. --[[User:Pne|pne]] 11:26, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

*Agree. <s>Is a screenshot possible?</s> --[[User:Merovingian|<font color="green">Merovingian]]</font><big>&#9997;</big>[[User talk:Merovingian|<font color="orange">Talk]] 11:29, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)

* Object. While not wishing to plunge the article into a [[holy war]], 1) I'd like to see some comparison of Debian in relation to other distributions (carefully NPOV, of course). Currently we mention Debian's features, but don't give a context as to how this compares to other distributions. For example, the large number of platforms is described, but it's not mentioned that other major distributions typically support only one or two platforms. APT is mentioned, but it's not compared to other (commonly perceived to be...) inferior packaging systems, e.g RPM. Similarly for the free-software philosophy and the nature of the Debian Project. 2) Also, there's no discussion of the (commonly perceived...) weaknesses of the distribution; it's common to hear people criticise the user-friendliness of Debian (e.g. no pretty installation / configuration tools). --[[User:Matt Crypto|-- Matt]] 14:39, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

*Not focused. (Is GNU/FreeBSD really deserving of a mention in the ''intro'' for more than the sheer novelty factor?) and the writing is not compelling. Both are fixable. Try news style for the intro? --[[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 18:13, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

===sid as backronym===

Is "sid" actually a "back-formation"? Why doesn't the article refer to it as a backronym? [[User:Mickeyreiss|Mickeyreiss]] 17:58, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

''No, it does not, but this is no reason for deleting information. It is a reason for correcting it...'' --[[User:XTaran|XTaran]]

: Well, not really. I've actually never heard of these "some people" saying that until I read this on Wikipedia! It's a too frivolous piece of half-information to be that high up in the article. --[[User:Shallot|Shallot]] 13:14, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

::Ok, that sounds like an argument. So I just asked Joey from the Debian Project about the frequency of this expansion. He shares my opinion: In his opinion, Wikipedia should list it as "inofficial expand of the codename sid". I'll try to find a place not so high up in the article. --[[User:XTaran|XTaran]] 14:54, 01 Mar 2004 (UTC)

::: Done. Anyone knows how to make footnotes a better way? Haven't found any special Wiki markup for them, I just used <code><nowiki>==Footnotes==</nowiki></code> and <code>[[#Footnotes|&lt;nowiki&gt;[1]&lt;/nowiki&gt;]]</nowiki></code>, which looks quite ugly but at least works. --[[User:XTaran|XTaran]] 19:38, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

== BSD criticisms ==

: ''The effort to combine the GNU-based userland with BSD kernels is also controversial among some of the developers of the BSD systems, who do not consider their kernel to be a separable component from the userland.''

The original wording implied that they all don't like it. I'd like to see some quotes or discussions, we need to quantify this statement. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 11:47, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Also, isn't the opposition also based on the fact it's the GNU system (with GPL and all) that is being integrated with the BSD kernels? --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 11:48, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== pages for individual releases ==

I really don't think we need silly little pages for each release, and titled after the codename at that. Unless someone actually adds some non-generic content to them, I'm going to nominate them for deletion.

Another angle to this issue would be the fact that we redirect [[Debian GNU/Linux]] here. If we split off the page about the project and about the software, we could easily and logically redirect the release names over to that page. However, this would beg the question - where to redirect the term "Debian" itself, to the project or to the software? --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 11:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)