Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Sanaani: Difference between revisions
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==Discussion==
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:''The following discussion is closed. {{red|'''Please do not modify it.'''}} Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.'' ''A summary of the conclusions reached follows.''
::Please see [[#Closing comment|my closing comment below]].
---- <!-- from Template:discussion top-->
* <S>Hi, I am from Yemen. The Sana'ani dialect is spoken by Northern Yemenis and it is understandable to almost all of the Arabs. The few words that are from different languages can be counted by hand fingers. The differences between Sana'ani dialect and Arabic is the sound of the letters not the words. For example, in Sana'a the letter ج is pronounced in a different way than other Arabic dialects as well as the letter ق and the letter ص. I would suggest not to create this project because it would be a waste of time. Since I am a Yemeni I can say that 98-99% of Sana'ani Arabic use Arabic words but as I said it's how they pronounce the letters. There are also some differences in some Arabic suffixes and prefixes that not only exist in Sana'ani Arabic but also in many Arabic dialects such as changing the letter Sin to Shin in the some words like "I will do"= "Ana Sha'afa'al" in the standard Arabic it would be "Ana Sa'afa'al". So it doesn't pass this condition "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language."
:I guess if there is a language that is not understandable in Yemen it would be the Mahri language not the Sana'ani. There are also Modern South Arabian languages like Socqtri language etc.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 00:55, 3 July 2019 (UTC)</s>
:: There's been a lot of argument over Arabic lects. We tend to consider languages with separate ISO 639-3 codes as being separate languages, as an external source that avoids much of the argument.--[[User:Prosfilaes|Prosfilaes]] ([[User talk:Prosfilaes|talk]]) 23:29, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
::: <S>{{U|Prosfilaes}} Per [[Language proposal policy]] having a saperated ISO is one criteria. There is another criteria which you ignored which is "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language."
::: Ignoring a policy to "avoid arguments" is asinine.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 05:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC)</s>
:::: Since SIL created an ISO 639-3 code, we have a [[W:RS]] saying that Sanaani is sufficiently unique. It's not ignoring the policy; it's using a neutral source to set a presumption. Throwing around words like "asinine" is not helpful to discussion.--[[User:Prosfilaes|Prosfilaes]] ([[User talk:Prosfilaes|talk]]) 08:09, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::Indeed, and I believe that there should still allow projects that use dialects of Arabic, if they're having differents from standard Arabic, since not all Arabic-speaking countries are always following Shariah Law. --[[Special:Contributions/117.13.95.200|117.13.95.200]] 08:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::<S> It doesn't say that Sana'ani language is "sufficiently unique". The criteria is clear and it is a saperated criteria. It is a dialect in Arabic and it is different from the standard Arabic only in the phonetic pronunciation of the letters. BTW I am not like against this proposal. It would be ''awesome'' to have a Yemeni Wikipedia. I am just trying to help and not to make you guys make a mistake. Also I don't know why it says Yemeni Arabic when the proposal is about the Sana'anite Arabic not the Yemeni Arabic in general. Yemeni Arabic could be Tihamah Arabic, Taizi Arabic, Ibbi Arabic. The Yemeni society is so isolated and therefore there are a lot of dialects/languages within the Yemeni language. The proposal is about Sana'ani Arabic but it is using Yemeni Arabic code. So I guess we need to fix this first. Reply to the IP: I have no idea how Shariah law is related to this discussion. Could you please explain more?.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 09:01, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::::: Also per [[:en:Sanʽani Arabic]] it is a dialect. I can give tons of RSs that says Sana'ani is a dialect.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 09:09, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::::: This is just an information I have: I have traveled to many Arabic countries such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Syria etc. I have never seen a country that has so many dialects like. Yemen. Currently there are only few Yemeni dialects that are studied. I was born in a village that is called Shar'ab As Salam. We have at least 12 dialects that I know. They are grammatically different and completely different pronouncition. That is because of how the Yemeni society is isolated from eachother due to the mountainous geology of Yemen, lack of transportation, tribalism and the diverse history. From one km to other you will find a completely different dialect. Even for example in Hebrew the Yemenite Hebrew has also many dialects such as the Adeni Hebrew, the Sharabi Hebrew, the Sana'ani Hebrew etc.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 10:07, 4 July 2019 (UTC)</s>
* Per [[Language proposal policy#Requisites for eligibility]]:
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:Can you explain how "Wikipedia Sanaani" met this condition? Also, I don't know why should we re-try "Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia" experience? so I {{oppose}} this new project! '''--'''[[User:علاء |<font size="3" face="Script MT Bold" style="color:black;">Alaa</font> ]] [[User_talk:علاء |:)..!]] 10:32, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
*{{comment}} The establishment of a Yemeni Wikipedia is not acceptable to all who speak Arabic, we Arabs all use the standard Arabic language in educational curricula and in the news, newspapers, newspapers ... etc. There is no one who uses his dialect in writing, because it has no rules for it. The only use of dialects is to speak only between people, and in writing we do not use the classical Arabic. In the past, Wikipedia was created by an Egyptian, and this caused many problems in the Arabic Wikipedia. Even the Egyptians themselves rejected this. Some of them even thought that this is a decree from Wikipedia to demolish the Arabic language that is understood by all Arabs to make them stay away from their mother tongue. We, as Arabs, reject any idea that harms Arabic, and all of us have achieved only Arabic Wikipedia. --[[User:عبد الله|عبد الله]] ([[User talk:عبد الله|talk]]) 10:32, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
*{{comment}} Arabic Accents and dedicates are '''NOT''' used in writing, they are not languages of literal or scientific works! They are just Spoken and its not like a Levantine or Egyptian or Iraqi Arab can't understand each other's accents, and its not that foreigners seek out specific accents to learn them. The Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia is still seen as a joke by the Egyptians themselves, and after several years the only major content that grew in it was related to pornography. We as
** Being languages of literal or scientific works is not a requirement of Wikimedia.
*{{oppose}}. The Local dialects are not separate languages. If Wikipedia creates a project for each dialect we will have tons of failure projects like the Egyptian project. --[[User:Dr-Taher|Dr-Taher]] ([[User talk:Dr-Taher|talk]]) 10:54, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
* {{comment}} As far as I know, every language has rules, while what we are talking about here is a dialect and has no rules! How can we consider it a separate language? --[[User:علاء فحصي|علاء فحصي]] ([[User talk:علاء فحصي|talk]]) 11:03, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
** There is no language or dialect or idiolect without rules. This statement completely ignores everything ever studied in linguistics.--[[User:Prosfilaes|Prosfilaes]] ([[User talk:Prosfilaes|talk]]) 02:27, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
* {{Comment}} I Totally Oppose This New Project Because is copy as retry the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia experience.[[User:Bander7799|Bander7799]] ([[User talk:Bander7799|talk]]) 11:34, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
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ضد إنشاء هذا الموقع.
:{{Oppose}}. This Local dialect are not separate languages and not used in writing, and has no Grammar it is not a language to create a project for it, if we create this project, we will have a lot of failure projects like the Egyptian project. --[[User:أبو هشام السوعان|أبو هشام السوعان]] ([[User talk:أبو هشام السوعان|talk]]) 11:42, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
:: Every dialect and idiolect has grammar; it's an inherent part of speech.--[[User:Prosfilaes|Prosfilaes]] ([[User talk:Prosfilaes|talk]]) 02:27, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
* {{comment}} It is not true to separate the dialects from the original language because of the existence of extraneous vocabulary or the difference of the pronunciation system. The people of sanaa use the classical Arabic language in writing, creating a special language for them is a big mistake and will fail.[[User:Philip.SY|Philip.SY]] ([[User talk:Philip.SY|talk]])
* {{comment}} Well, this is the [[:en:Absurdism|Absurdism!]] and lamentable moment in the history of our WIKIMEDIA :( -- [[User:صالح|صالح]] ([[User talk:صالح|talk]]) 13:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
<S>*'''Comment''' the person who made this proposal said :
: {{tq2|people in Yemen write as they talk so the proposal of Sanaani Wikipedia will be a gate of knowledge for people who can not write or speak Standard Arabic.}}
: Now that's utterly bullshit. People in Yemen write using MSA in newspapers, advertisements, TV, formal messages and speak with the MSA in TV, business companies etc. The modern standard Arabic is like the formal language while the Sana'ani dialect is used only in public and as I said above the differences between the MSA and the Sana'ani Arabic is the pronunciation of some letters and some loanwords that can be counted by hands fingers. Also, FYI, in this world there is ''nobody'' who speaks Modern standard Arabic as his native first language. Literally nobody. All Arabs have dialects. I don't know how this proposal passed and in what ground this was passed as eligible and even after I explained and we agreed that this is still in the discussion phase someone came impolitely screaming in my talk page and reverting me.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 15:18, 4 July 2019 (UTC)</s>
: {{Ping|MF-Warburg}} Please help. this proposal should be in the discussion phase not eligible yet.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 16:05, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::{{Oppose}} I am against this project for many reasons, especially that the existence of several Wiki in the same language will lead to separate editors here and there. The official language of Yemen is Arabic, and any slight differences in dialects shouldn't urge creating their own Wiki. Wikipedia encourages its users to use Arabic language, so we can't come here to suggest making a special Wiki for other dialects. I believe that this project is useless.[[User:شيماء|شيماء]] ([[User talk:شيماء|talk]]) 15:52, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
*{{Oppose}} I do not speak Arabic, but I’m familiar with the ar.wiki community and do my best to help it in what capacity I can when there are cross-wiki issues. This project would not be helpful. It would be divisive in a community that does not need division and would seriously harm the cohesiveness of the Wikimedia movement on the Middle East. As a non-Arab who cares about the success of projects in this region/this language, I urge you not to create this project. [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 16:49, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
* '''Strong oppose'''. First, we all should remember that the main aim of Wikipedia is to contain all human knowledges in one encyclopedia in all languages of the world. So if we see the Sanaani dialect, we find that it isn't language basically but it is one of many dialects of Arabic and we also find that it isn't unused at schools or cultural and scientific research. Also I want to add that Sanaani dialect isn't famous dialect compared to another arabic dialects so if we search about "اللهجة الصنعانية" at Google, we find that the numbers of results did't equal 100000 results even! Finally, the number of people who uses that dialect is about million person only. Although the number of people who uses the egyptian dialect ,which is used in Egyptian Wikipedia, surpasses 50 million person, The Egyptian Wikipedia becomes a failure project and we the Egyptian make fun of it. Thanks. [[User:أحمد ناجي|<span style="color:#000000; font-size:21px; font-family:Blackadder ITC;">'''Ahmed Najji'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:أحمد ناجي|<span style="color:#339900; font-size:18px; font-family:Arial;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 17:45, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
* {{comment}} I clearly remember that the first thing which made me fond of wikipedia was that “It is for all Arabs”. I feel so proud when I get into discussion and find people from different arab countries share their ideas using our mother language “ARABIC”. It is not useful to create such projects for different dialects because we ,as Arabic wikipedians, seek to achieve the same goals: To benefit arabs and regain some of the past glory of Arabic language. Creating projects like Egyptian and Sana'ani Wikipedia confirms that we are used to dispersing which is so regrettable. So I completely {{oppose}} this project. [[User:دنيا|دنيا]] ([[User talk:دنيا|talk]]) 19:20, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
*'''Strongly support as a Yemeni''' Hi I am from Yemen. Sana'ani Arabic is completely different than the modern standard Arabic language. I can't even communicate with Arabs using it and I can't use modern standard Arabic. This is why I am unable to edit in Arabic Wikipedia. I can't use the language that other Arab Wikipedians understand. Take as an example this admin [[user:باسم]]. He literally doesn't understand a word from what I am saying. I will start the test project after I receive the permission to be a member of the wiki language. I will be an active contributor there. The claim that TonyBallioni made is actually nonsense. Wikipedia should be available to all contributors not only those who speak MSA. Those who speak MSA should not be selfish. There are a lot of Yemeni contributors who face difficulties while trying to edit in Arabic wikipedia due to their language. We should allow everyone to contribute in their language. I will also propose other Arabic languages such as Lebanese which is also not understandable. [[User:TonyBallioni]] Arabic Wikipedia is only available for few editors, especially those who have female usernames and can speak Modern standard Arabic. 70% of Arab speakers can't speak Modern standard Arabic. Why would wikipedia be only for those who can speak Modern standard Arabic??--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 19:59, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
:I will start to edit in the test project after that I will propose another languages. The Wikimedia project was created to be available for everyone not only Modern standard Arabic. I don't see any reason for such discussion. The project is already eligible it has its own ISO code and it is a completely different language--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 20:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
* {{oppose}} new project, These projects (Egyptian, Sanaani ...) are just a waste of time and will be without a community, in Arabic Wikipedia we are from all over the world, speak the same language and write in the same language, no one can complains about not understanding the language. If you do not understand Arabic, you will not understand Sanaani as well.--[[User:جار الله|جار الله]] ([[User talk:جار الله|talk]]) 10:24, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
*'''Important comment:'''
:Most of the arguments above are about that creating Arabic wikipedia will divide Arabs or divide Arabs who contribute in Arabic Wikipedia and other conspiracy theories.
:First of all that's is nonsense. Creating a project for those who speak Sana'ani Arabic will '''increase''' Arab contributors who are unable to contribute in Modern standard Arabic. (Just like me). Those who their native language is Sana'anite Arabic will have an opportunity to contribute in the Sana'ani project. Some here say that the Egyptian Wikipedia was a bad idea. No it wasn't. I was in Egypt once. I didn't understand a word and they didn't understand what I was saying to them they literally use Egyptian language for advertisement. It was a great idea to create such project. I am next to Sanaani Yemenis who are willing to join wikiperka and help in the project.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 20:53, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::{{ping|SharabSalam}} I think Sanaani dialect won't be able to express the scientific idioms. For example, Can you tell me the synonymous of '''Plantar fasciitis''' in Sanaani dialect? [[User:أحمد ناجي|<span style="color:#000000; font-size:21px; font-family:Blackadder ITC;">'''Ahmed Najji'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:أحمد ناجي|<span style="color:#339900; font-size:18px; font-family:Arial;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 20:57, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
:::(Edit conflict) That's a fallacious argument. There are many terms that are untranslatable in Arabic and these terms would be the same in both Sana'ani, and Modern standard Arabic. As I said, we don't understand each other in Arabic Wikipedia. Every edit of mine is reverted and no one understand a word of what I am saying. It's a pain in the ass to talk in the Modern standard Arabic while my native language is Sana'anite Arabic. Also it's a language not a dialect it has its own ISO code.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 21:03, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::::{{ping|SharabSalam}} Who say that there are many terms that are untranslatable in Arabic? I think it is your own opinion but the fact says we find the translation to any term we want to translate in Arabic Wikipedia and you can search in our Wikipedia to make sure. Honestly, I can't believe that you can't understand Arabic! If you can't understand Arabic in Yemen, You surely can't understand what your President and government say and you can't Practice your religious rites. Briefly, The person ,who can't understand Arabic in Yemen, can't live there. [[User:أحمد ناجي|<span style="color:#000000; font-size:21px; font-family:Blackadder ITC;">'''Ahmed Najji'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:أحمد ناجي|<span style="color:#339900; font-size:18px; font-family:Arial;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 21:34, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::::: Ok, translate melatonin to Arabic. It is a hormone that helps to regulate the sleeping cycle--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 21:44, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::{{ping|SharabSalam}} The translation is '''ميلاتونين''' and called also '''هرمون النوم'''. [[User:أحمد ناجي|<span style="color:#000000; font-size:21px; font-family:Blackadder ITC;">'''Ahmed Najji'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:أحمد ناجي|<span style="color:#339900; font-size:18px; font-family:Arial;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 21:57, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::{{Ping|أحمد ناجي}} That is ''transliteration'' not ''translation''. We don't have a word in Arabic that translate the meaning of most scientific terms. Therefore your argument is invalid. A language doesn't need to have the translation of the scientific terms. We just transliterate them.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 22:11, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::{{Ping|SharabSalam}} In most Arabic countries, we study medicine in English, So many people depend on transliterating terms from English but at the same time, it is so easy to find an Arabic word. For your example, '''ميلاتونين''' is a transliteration of melatonin but '''هرمون النوم''' is the translation of the same word. [[User:أحمد ناجي|<span style="color:#000000; font-size:21px; font-family:Blackadder ITC;">'''Ahmed Najji'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:أحمد ناجي|<span style="color:#339900; font-size:18px; font-family:Arial;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 22:25, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::Yet, Wikipedia in Arabic call it [[ar:ميلاتونين]]. (Oh Modern standard Arabic wikipedia doesn't have scientific terms. Oh let's remove it and use English that has scientific terms.) This how your argument sounds to me.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 22:41, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::I think the concern here, at least from me as someone who is a non-Arab but who is familiar with the history here, is that the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia was and is very controversial. It did not help form a cohesive community to build content and share the sum of human knowledge. It resulted in hurt feelings, nothing more. I don't think that is a good thing for our movement as a whole, which is why I agree with the editors from ar.wiki who are opposing it here. They all make very good points, and the Language Committee (and ultimately the Board of Directors if it gets to them) should really consider the potential damage they could be doing to existing communities by creating another. [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 21:00, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
:::What is wrong with the Egyptian Wikipedia? Are you kidding me? Egyptians love it. It's just their(Arabs) governments who have agents in Arabic wikipedia to make Arabic Wikipedia like Saudi Arabian regime dictatorship.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 21:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::: Good points - emotional feelings
::: Choose one.
::: Please bring valid points.
::: The Sana'anite language is completely different from Modern standard Arabic. We have over 7 million speakers of Sana'ani language. That's almost the size of the population in Israel. Yet, Sana'anites don't have their own Wikipedia because what??? Egyptian Wikipedia sparked ''emotions''.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 21:12, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::::Hi SharabSalam, please don't make claims that the Arabic Wikipedia is infiltrated by Saudi government agents. I know several of the people here, and they are not Saudi and do not have connections to that government. [[Meta:Urbanity]] is a policy similar to [[w:en:WP:NPA|No personal attacks]] and [[w:en:WP:CIVILITY|civility]] on the English Wikipedia. I understand how complicated these situations are, but accusing people who in good faith oppose these ideas as being government agents is not moving the discussion forward. [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 21:17, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::::: I am not accusing anyone I am saying that in general. There are Saudi agents in the Arabic wikipedia that's something highly likely in all probability. Anyway, the Arab editors who came here came after an invitation from an editor [https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%D9%8A%D9%83%D9%8A%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%A7:%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86/%D9%85%D9%86%D9%88%D8%B9%D8%A7%D8%AA#%D9%88%D9%8A%D9%83%D9%8A%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%A7_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%87%D8%AC%D8%A9_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B5%D9%86%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%A9 here]. I don't know whether that is considered canvassing or not but if English Wikipedia rules apply here I would have removed their votes.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 21:22, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::You really should have reached out to Ala'a about that on his talk page. I've reviewed his post on ar.wiki. It appears to be a generic notification of a community that would be interested in commenting. A notification of the ar.wiki community about this inviting their comments is normal, and even by English Wikipedia standards would not be considered canvassing. [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 21:27, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::: Sigh..., seeing the comments there makes me feel uncomfortable tbh. They are saying they are going to remove the language links in Wikidata that link to Egyptian Wikipedia project. Anyway, this project must be created and ''emotional feelings'' should not be considered a valid argument under any circumstance.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 21:39, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::Feelings themselves aren't a good argument. The controversy the feelings can cause and the damage they can do to existing communities certainly is. Human beings aren't robots. Recognizing that the creation of one project may cause serious damage to the ''community'' of an existing project because of the complexity of relationships in the region that the languages serve is certainly a valid consideration to make. [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 21:43, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
{{Od}} The controversy can be artificial. It can be caused by bunch of Saudi, UAE etc media that doesn't want to make wikipedia available. You see, although I am a native speaker of Sana'ani Arabic I can speak Modern standard Arabic. If I write any thing in Arabic wikipedia I '''always''' get reverted. No matter what was my edit. I get reverted without even an explanation. How can I explain that? I can assume good faith but then what would I think? The only way to edit in Arabic Wikipedia is sadly to name your username with a female username. That's the only way your edits won't get reverted. This explains why would these regimes in the Arab world artificially create controversies using their media and money. I even got a message few minutes ago asking me "why am I attacking Saudi [Barbaria]"? [https://ar.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%86%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%B4_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85:SharabSalam?markasread=17708742&markasreadwiki=arwiki#%D8%AA%D9%87%D8%AC%D9%85%D9%83_%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%89_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%B9%D9%88%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%A9]. I can't understand the rationale that make wikipedia bow to these artificial controversies. I am an Arab myself from the head to the toe. I am 100% Arab. I don't see any problem with creating a project for Sana'ani Arabs who can't contribute in the Arabic project just either because they can't talk in Modern standard Arabic or because they are always being revert because they are just Yemenis .--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 22:05, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
:Why do you think I am mostly active in English Wikipedia? I am actually a refugee in English Wikipedia. I can't do a single edit in Arabic Wikipedia without being reverted by editors such as [[user:باسم]] and there is another one his name is Abdullah but I forgot his handle. I am not a native English speaker and I wish I can edit in Arabic Wikipedia but I can't because I can't speak Modern standard Arabic and I always get reverted by abusive editors. Voting against creating this project will only make my, no not only mine. '''our''' (Yemenis) right to contribute disappear.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 22:34, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
{{Oppose}} : This is a local dialect that has never been used for writing up. It has no grammar، structure or context. I totally '''oppose''' this project as per [[Language proposal policy#Requisites for eligibility]] : "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language". [[User:Jaseromer|Jaseromer]] ([[User talk:Jaseromer|talk]]) 22:29, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
:I am a Yemeni myself. Let write Sana'ani Arabic to you and tell me if you understand. ليشهو مش عاجشبكم انه يكون معانا مشروح لحالنا أو ماشي؟
: You are basically saying nonsense. We use the Sana'ani Arabic in daily life. For example in all of Yemeni TV series. There are 7 million speakers of Sana'ani Arabic. That's the size of the population of Israel. Yet, they have a project and we don't.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 22:34, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
*دعني أسألك سؤال عزيزي [[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] بأي قناة فضائية تثق فيما يخص أحداث اليمن العربية أم الجزيرة، أرجو أن يكون جوابك صريحا. شكرا لك. --[[User:أبو هشام السوعان|أبو هشام السوعان]] ([[User talk:أبو هشام السوعان|talk]]) 23:22, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
** والله انا يمني وكنت اشاهد الأمور مباشر أمام عيني. ايش السوال السخيف هذا؟ مع احترامي لشخص حضرتك.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 23:35, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
*How many native speakers of [[en:Modern Standard Arabic]] do we have? Per it's article we have none! No one speak Modern standard Arabic as their first language.. The question is how many people '''can''' speak Modern standard? The answer is only few. This is why I support creating a wikipedia Project in Sana'ani language. The goal of Wikipedia is to be available to everyone. Yet, so many people can't speak Modern standard Arabic and therefore Wikipedia isn't available for them. And even if there are some people who speak Modern standard Arabic, they aren't able to edit in Wikipedia because there are admins and editors who are abusing their power and attacking newcomers. The only way to get your edit done is to use a female username. I have been looking in that project, seeing what's happening and I can prove it. However, this isn't the time.. I will contact with WMF stuff later and see what we can do about this issue. In any case, there isn't any valid reason why this project should not be created..--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 05:17, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
* Thank you for answering with arabic [[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ودعني أعطيك فائدة إن وجود قنوات فضائية تتحدث باللهجة العامية لا يعني عدم معرفة المشاهدين للفصحى ولكن هو هجر للغة العربية الفصحى ألا ترى المسلسلات التركية المدبلجة وبعض أفلام الكرتون المدبلجة حديثا تركت الفصحى ولجأت إلى اللهجة المصرية أو اللبنانية وهذا لا يجعل من هذه اللهجات لغات رسمية بل يفرض واقعا مؤلما هو هجر للغة التي يفهمها كل العرب. شكرا لك. --[[User:أبو هشام السوعان|أبو هشام السوعان]] ([[User talk:أبو هشام السوعان|talk]]) 06:24, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
**كلام انشائي لا يسمن ولا يغني من جوع. وهذا اصلا ليس موضوع نقاشنا.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 07:40, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
: {{Oppose}} I live in sana'a and I never met any one says or believes that the Sanaani dialect is something different from arabic language --[[User:Mr. Ibrahem|Mr. Ibrahem]] ([[User talk:Mr. Ibrahem|talk]]) 12:04, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
::{{Ping|Mr. Ibrahem}} no one is saying that Sana'ani Arabic is not Arabic. I am saying that most of the Sana'ani speakers(7 millions) can't speak Modern standard Arabic. As a Yemeni I can tell you that I have faced many difficulties while editing in the Modern standard Arabic Wikipedia. The Yemeni language is more related to classical Arabic but not the Modern standard Arabic. BTW, this isn't going to divide Arabs or something like that. It will give opportunity to Sana'ani speakers who can't speak Modern standard Arabic. Also [https://incubator.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ayn/صفحه_اصليه the project] is already created and there are already contributors there and this is not the discussion phase it is already tagged as eligible. I hope you contribute there and build the Sana'ani project. Thanks.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 13:13, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
:::[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]]These discussions will lead for no result. This project will ruin Arabic language. Have you ever viewed The Egyptian Wikipedia Project? It's a failing one, even Egyptian people refuse using it. The core of the whole idea is wrong, and the same thing will happen to Wikipedia project of Sana'a accent.[[User:شيماء|شيماء]] ([[User talk:شيماء|talk]]) 13:23, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
::::As I have said above, that is a fallacious argument. First of all, I don't think Arabs are allowed to edit in the Modern standard Arabic because anyone who does an edit his edit gets reverted without an explanation. Secondly, Egyptian Wikipedia is doing fine and it's articles are increasing. I am not a native Sana'ani Arabic speaker but I will help in the Sana'ani project and make a Wikipedia that is free for all unlike the modern standard Arabic Wikipedia regime, which is the real failing project that failed to deliver the purpose of Wikipedia which is to be an encyclopedia that is free for all--[[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 13:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
:I {{oppose}} these projects for a clear reason: that these are dialects and not languages, and there are thousands of dialects in the Arab world. All speakers of these dialects understand and speak Arabic as their official language. So I'm definitely against these projects. The Arab community should be notified of these projects or requests because most of the users of the Arabic Wikipedia do not contribute to Meta.--<span style="font-family: Andalus; font-size: 15px; text-shadow: silver 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em;"><font color="FF000000">[[User:فيصل|'''Faisal ''']]</font><sup>[[User talk:فيصل|talk]]</sup></span> 15:41, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
:: These huge threads that bring in many people who make arguments that are repetitive, irrelevant to the concerns of the Language Committee, or even just votes aren't very helpful. Instead of notifying the Arabic Wikipedia to bring on this deluge, I think it would be better if the Arabic-speaking community who opposes new Wikipedias for languages generally considered part of Arabic were to write an essay clearly explaining why, instead of trying to fill every Request for new language with pages and pages of text.--[[User:Prosfilaes|Prosfilaes]] ([[User talk:Prosfilaes|talk]]) 12:15, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Prosfilaes}} no, because that wouldn’t adequately show how large and deep-seated the opposition to this project is in the Arabic Wikimedia community. An essay would be promptly ignored and it’d be very likely that a project that could seriously harm the reputation of the WMF in the Middle East would be approved, which in turn would harm the goals of our movement as a whole. I also think it looks really bad for someone who is not a member of the community involved to basically say that the concerns raised here are irrelevant. Anyone who has access to Google news knows how complicated things in this region can be, and things that may not be concerns for other proposals very much could be here. Talking down to Arab users is not going to help the current situation at all. [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 16:03, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
I {{oppose}} these requests. As mentioned above, these are dialects, not languages, and all speakers of these dialects speak Arabic as their first language. --[[Special:Contributions/94.128.51.170|94.128.51.170]] 18:00, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
*{{oppose}}, I believe that these requests are nothing but futile attempts to free themselves from the policies and guidelines of Arabic Wikipedia, so everyone can publish without any rules or standards. -[[User:Mohanad Kh|Mohanad Kh]] ([[User talk:Mohanad Kh|talk]]) 19:48, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
* {{Oppose}} I don't consider Sanaani as a specific dialict. It is a part of South Arabian dialicts that are understandable to majority of Arabs. There's no point of view to Create a new Wikipedia with this local accent. [[User:Mahmoudalrawi|Mahmood]] ([[User talk:Mahmoudalrawi|talk]]) 07:57, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
* {{Oppose}} Sanaani is a dialect, with which no volume of literature has been produced. The population of our beloved Yemen speaks Arabic very well; it's the language of instruction in schools and universities. Furthermore, the motives presented by brother {{U|SharabSalam}} are purely political; he is complaining that his edits get reverted in ar.wiki, a problem to which an entire new encyclopaedia seems like a poor solution. --[[User:Ahmed M Farrag|Ahmed M Farrag]] ([[User talk:Ahmed M Farrag|talk]]) 16:02, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
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===Closing comment===
I think we've had sufficient discussion of this for now. Let me outline next steps all the way around.
====For now...====
* LangCom is not going to immediately change the status of any of these requests; for the time being they are all "eligible", at least in theory. As @[[User:Prosfilaes|Prosfilaes]] points out [[#SIL|here]], when SIL decides that "Arabic" is a [[:en:macrolanguage|macrolanguage]] and that many of the individual "dialects" have the status of ''languages'', then the ''presumption'' is that they are eligible for projects.
* It is also true that the [[language proposal policy]] states that "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language." So if the written version of a form of Arabic (like this one) is really no different from standard written Arabic, we would usually not encourage or approve such a project. Still, if you are saying that <u>no</u> local form of Arabic should be eligible, what you should do is to write an essay (as Prosfilaes suggests [[#essay|here]]). Bring your <u>evidence</u>—not just your <u>opinions</u>—to that discussion. Then LangCom can address that discussion.
*: For now, I am not going to present this to LangCom. The original person who objected has changed {{gender:SharabSalam|his|her|his/her}} mind about it, and no one has brought evidence yet.
* For the record, [[:arz:|Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia]] is exempt from these discussions, as it already exists.
====Things to keep in mind for later====
* It is one thing for a project to be "eligible". It is another thing for a project to be ''approved''. That takes a lot of work. This particular test project currently contains exactly ten pages, none of which is ready for publication anyway. It will likely be years, if ever, before this test project is ready to consider for approval.
* It's almost unheard of for projects like this to become full-featured encyclopedias, anyway. If this project is ever close to approval, the most likely scenario would be that it covers cultural, geographic, and perhaps political issues that are local to its community, but that aren't considered interesting (or even, perhaps, [[:en:WP:N|notable]]) to the Arabic community at large.
*: To illustrate, look at the [[:incubator:Wp/gcr/Paj Prensipal|Guianan Creole [Test] Wikipedia]]. It is written in a French-based creole spoken in [[:en:Guyane|Guyane]]. People in Guyane also understand standard French, and this test Wikipedia does not cover anything close to the breadth of material that French Wikipédia does. However, it covers material of interest to people in Guyane and nearby parts of South America and the Caribbean that are not really of interest or note to the larger French-speaking world. So it serves its purpose. I could easily see this project as similar.
====Response to last comment by @[[User:TonyBallioni]]====
I do take your point, believe me. But please take what I've written here to heart.
* I do not, for a moment, think that the concerns raised here are irrelevant.
* I very much appreciate the complexity of issues in this part of the world.
* At the same time, if @[[User:SharabSalam]] has really had legitimate edits regularly reverted at arwiki, that suggests a different group of problems, too. If there is a NPOV problem on arwiki, maybe other outlets would be necessary/useful.
* It is very, very unlikely for this project ever to become a full-fledged encyclopedia, as I have described above. So it is really not likely ever to "compete" broadly with Arabic Wikipedia.
* I will be the one responsible for responding to any such essay written, and promise you it will not be ignored—even if I have to bypass LangCom and take it to the Board. OK?
[[User:StevenJ81|StevenJ81]] ([[User talk:StevenJ81|talk]]) 16:26, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.''</div>
* {{oppose}} No need to create too many Arabic dialects wikis, their users can and should contribute to [[:ar:]]. --[[Special:Contributions/125.36.185.112|125.36.185.112]] 02:18, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
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