Requests for comment/Administrator abuse on the Croatian Wikipedia: Difference between revisions

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{{rfc subpage

|status = inactive

|comment = Closing as inactive, as a more recent and active discussion that includes specific proposals is ongoing at [[Requests for comment/Site-wide administrator abuse and WP:PILLARS violations on the Croatian Wikipedia]]. '''~[[User:~riley|<span style="color:#232323;">''riley''</span>]]''' ''(<span style="color:#4F4F4F;">[[User talk:~riley|<span style="color:#4F4F4F;">talk</span>]]</span>)'' 06:38, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

|comment =

|date = 2016-08-04

}}

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The Fact checking site compared policy about using sources in English and Croatian Wikipedias. Croatian Wikipedia is based od mainly extreme right sources.--[[User:DobarSkroz|DobarSkroz]] ([[User talk:DobarSkroz|talk]]) 14:19, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

{{comment}} The Media cited above are highly biased, some written in Serbian language or by Serbian authors, and they either don't understand or ignore Croatian language (e.g. Concentration camp means Sabirni logor in Croatian, and "Collection camp" would be some "Skupljajući logor", which term does not exist). Such media are not representative, competent and relevant, but far-left or far-right. It would be better to cite NPOV media. --[[User:Silverije|Silverije]] ([[User talk:Silverije|talk]]) 23:03, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

==On the state of Croatian Wikipedia==

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I am pinging {{u|George Ho}}, {{u|Rschen7754}}, {{u|Notrium}}, {{u|GregorB}}, and {{u|DobarSkroz}} because they have participated in this discussion in the past and their input in finding a solution to these massive issues would be appreciated. [[User:DraconicDark|DraconicDark]] ([[User talk:DraconicDark|talk]]) 00:13, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

:I don't know. The Azerbaijan issues were a bit more clear-cut. But I think where the 2013 discussions failed was that nothing was ever formally proposed. A wiki like this should not have CheckUsers, for one. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 16:47, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

:::{{ping|Rschen7754}} please have a look. First, look how DraconicDark misinterpretes the words. "Saveznici fašista, dosta slično, ali ne i isto." means: "Allies of fascists, similar a lot, but not the same". What was wrong here? No whitewashing ("similar a lot" can mean "similar, but worse"), no "not answering" - beginning of the sentence is the answer. DraconicDark is lying.

:::Futher, in March this year Croatian Ministry of Foreign Affairs reacted with press release for Austrian media [https://www.tportal.hr/vijesti/clanak/mvep-se-zali-na-austrijske-medije-skup-na-bleiburgu-nije-najvece-okupljanje-neonacista-u-eu-foto-20190314] "''Bleiburško polje za Hrvate predstavlja simbol masakra i mučenja i simbol povrede ljudskih prava. Stoga smo zgranuti prigovorom da se na Bleiburgu slavi fašizam, što stvara krivu predodžbu o Hrvatskoj i Hrvatima. MVEP je tako izrazio duboko žaljenje zbog percepcije događaja u austrijskoj javnosti koja u okupljanju na Bleiburškom polju vidi 'fašističku zabavu', 'najveće okupljanje neonacista u EU', 'skup ekstremne desnice' ili 'skup ustaša'. U priopćenju je naglašeno kako grubo poopćavanje u izvješćima medija, kojim se današnja Hrvatska i njezino stanovništvo povezuju s oživljavanjem fašističkih misli, u MVEP-u doživljavaju kao bolnu uvredu. Istaknuto je i kako je pogrešno na temelju pojedinačnih slučajeva, koje svakako treba najoštrije osuditi, brojne pripadnike obitelji žrtava kao i predstavnike Vlade i crkvenih vlasti okupljene na Loibaškom polju nazivati fašistima. Ukazali smo kako se upravo to radilo desetljećima pod komunističkom vlašću: prešućivalo se i ublažavalo ubojstvo desetina tisuća vojnika i civila koji su bili izručeni Titovoj armiji bez prava na sudski proces, kao što su utišavani i svi oni glasovi koji su oživljavali sjećanje na taj događaj', ... Mogućnost odvijanja ovakvog skupa u Austriji smatrali su pomakom u smislu demokratskog razvoja i kao takvog ga poštivali. '' I can translate You this from Croatian. [[User:Kubura|Kubura]] ([[User talk:Kubura|talk]]) 22:53, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

:::DraconicDark said "'' saying that the Serbo-Croatian language is some sort of "language genocide" (that's not even a legitimate term, and Croatian Wikipedia has a red link there!) and that there were some sort of attempts to suppress the Croatian language by instead teaching children in Serbian,''". "Language genocide" is a legitimate term. Here [http://www.matica.hr/hr/429/jezicni-identiteti-nesrpskih-naroda-u-velikosrpskom-programu-drzavnoga-sjedinjenja-23825/] in the magazine of major Croatian cultural institution is the line "''Glasovi oporbe kulturnomu i <u>jezičnomu genocidu</u> bili su u Hrvatskoj nejasno artikulirani dijelom i stoga što onodobna jezikoslovna znanost nije pružala alate za bolji opis jezičnih pojavnosti i razina te odnosa među njima''" The article is written by Croatian linguist Nataša Bašić. Articlename: ''Jezični identiteti nesrpskih naroda u velikosrpskom programu državnoga sjedinjenja'' - "The language identities of non-Serb peoples in the greaterserbianist program of the state unification"; deals with the serbocroatist and greaterserbianist topics. In the text "Preradović posebno napominje da ne prihvaća naziv srpsko-hrvatski ili hrvatsko-srpski jer je surogat i jer su ga izmislili ljudi kojima je stalo da hrvatstvo oslabi i da se njegov ponos ponizi. " Preradović (grandfather of Paula Preradović) especially notes that he does not accept name Serbo-Croatian or Croato-Serbian because it is the surogate and it was invented py persons who care that Croathood weakens and its (of Croathood) pride gets humiliated." [[User:Kubura|Kubura]] ([[User talk:Kubura|talk]]) 23:02, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

::{{ping|Rschen7754}} What do you mean when you say the issues with Azerbaijani Wikipedia are more clear-cut? I see this as basically the same issue, but with different players. For azwiki it's the Armenian Genocide denialists and the Pan-Turkists, for hrwiki it's the fascists and/or nationalists, but they're doing the same thing in both places. Both issues seem very clear-cut and warranting the same kind of direct action. As for CheckUsers, any issues with those should be referred to the stewards per [[CheckUser policy#Removal of access|policy]]. If you have any evidence of CheckUser abuse, please mention it there and/or here. The [https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posebno:Suradnici/checkuser CheckUsers] at hrwiki have both been admins for a while, so there's probably something there. [[User:DraconicDark|DraconicDark]] ([[User talk:DraconicDark|talk]]) 23:25, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

:::In that case, there was blatant use of the admin tools to keep a page at a title with obvious POV. Here, there would need to be a significant investigation required to boil the evidence down into something that the community can understand so they can vote accordingly. I know there are pages upon pages of complaints about Croatian Wikipedia that need to be investigated. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 01:06, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

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Thank you for continuing to report out about the situation, and for preparing to write it up. I agree that it needs to be addressed by the global community, and that this is an exceptional case in both current and historical ways, with no direct precedent. &ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]]<small>&nbsp;[[User Talk:Sj|<font style="color:#f90;">talk</font>]]&nbsp;</small> 19:11, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

== Refactoring / cleaning up this page ==

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Maybe I'm playing the dumb uninformed American here (closest I've been to Croatia is probably Italy), but I thought that a lot of countries in that particular region didn't necessarily get along that well. While editors from other similar languages might have the language expertise, I worry that we might be inviting a different set of POV onto the wiki. Thoughts? --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 05:01, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

:{{ping|Rschen7754}} Bringing people with different viewpoints into hrwiki is a good idea because it will make the articles less one-sided. Of all the Wikipedias in varieties of Serbo-Croatian, shwiki is the least politically biased, so it is the ideal place from which to draw new hrwiki contributors. [[User:DraconicDark|DraconicDark]] ([[User talk:DraconicDark|talk]]) 16:36, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

*Comment - I (also) agree with [[User:DraconicDark|DraconicDark]], all four projects (hr, sr, bs, sh) should be, must be included into this effort to get something done. The opportunity to bring order to all four projects should by no means be missed, of course, if anything comes out of this at all. Even if it means giving up of all three national (bs, hr, sr) in favor of supranational sh.wikipedia - it's not my intention to promulgate pessimism, but this option of integrating them all into sh.wikipeda is my favorite, because I seriously doubt that hard-liners on all sides, and hardest of all hard-liners are administrators themselves anyway, willing to connect and cooperate, which would mean giving up on an ideological stance and worldview, not to mention admin positions. I really don't see how anyone can reconcile the worldviews of ethno-nationalists behind keyboards, and persuade them to respect each others and their POV and consequently cooperate.--^{<span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:Santasa99|'''s a n t a''']] &#124; [[User talk:Santasa99|'''t a l k''']] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Santasa99|'''p i t''']]</span>} 16:35, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

** I would like to say two things: the various Wikipedias are actually supposed to be based on '''languages''', not '''nations''' or '''countries''' (you call b/h/s ''three national'' Wikipedias), though in practice they are largely country-based (and if they really were language based, the minor Shtokavian variants that are the three standards definitely would not deserve their own Wikipedias). The other thing is that I think other large Wikipedias could also be included in the potential solution: interested admins from En and De, for example, could be made admins and Arbitration Committee members of the Hr (or united Sh) Wikipedia. [[User:Notrium|Notrium]] ([[User talk:Notrium|talk]]) 20:25, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

==Another concerning development==

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: Also: [https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Kafi%C4%87/Njema%C4%8Dka_Wikipedija/Popis_nepravilnosti_na_njema%C4%8Dkoj_wikipediji "'''List of irregularities at German Wikipedia'''"]. [[User:Notrium|Notrium]] ([[User talk:Notrium|talk]]) 10:01, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

::These pages are practically a forums - apparently they don't shy away from using WMF servers as regular Internet forums. But as far as I can tell, all those instances of policies and guidelines dealing with this type of coordinated approach to editing en.wikipedia are too ambiguous, often contradictory. The aspect defined as "canvasing" and / or "meatpuppetry" is the only one that could be subject to some kind of sanction by the administrator, which does not necessarily mean it will be, as evident in my own case [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Merger_discussion_disrupted_by_Meatpuppetry HERE].--[[User:Santasa99|Santasa99]] ([[User talk:Santasa99|talk]]) 13:11, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

:::I came here to support Croatian wikipedia, I am interested in the history of the Serbs in Croatia and Croatian history. I have been researching this history for years. Please give me original historical data which speaking about Serbs in Croatia(area from Dubrovnik to western Slavonia) from western Slavonia began to prevail records about Serbs(Rascians). Therefore all is said and now go to the English wikipedia to read fairytale about Croatian Serbs<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_of_Croatia#History</ref>We have two articles that talk about same peoples. We have an article on Vlachs<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_in_the_history_of_Croatia</ref>(who are also Croats, etc) and article about Serbs. Who are Serbs and where Vlachs disappeared? Therefore when we begin to take Serbian history(but also Croatian through the Yugoslavian era) under the truth then we have what we have. It is no wonder that according to Serbs, Croats are actually Catholic Serbs and it is logically because they are also referred as Vlachs but Vlachs are not Serbs. And then you commenting Croatian wikipedia? [[User:Mikola22|Mikola22]] ([[User talk:Mikola22|talk]]) 09:22, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

==Draft proposal==

{{ping|GregorB}} {{ping|Notrium}} {{ping|Santasa99}} {{ping|Rschen7754}} {{ping|Daß Wölf}} I have drafted a proposal at [[User:DraconicDark/sandbox]]. Do you think this proposal is in the right direction, or do changes need to be made? [[User:DraconicDark|DraconicDark]] ([[User talk:DraconicDark|talk]]) 15:24, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

: Thank you! I have a non-public draft of my own, but I've been busy lately and I still haven't finished it. Would you mind if I beat you to the punch and post this RfC, incorporating parts of your proposal into it? I particularly like your proposed points of action, I'd say they are the best I've seen thus far, better than what I've been able to come up with, and I've been studying this issue for a long time. [[User:GregorB|GregorB]] ([[User talk:GregorB|talk]]) 18:19, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

: BTW, I'm now indefinitely blocked from CW.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-08-30/Opinion&diff=prev&oldid=917626522] [[User:GregorB|GregorB]] ([[User talk:GregorB|talk]]) 18:23, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

::{{ping|GregorB}} Yes, please publish your proposal once it's finished. I am perfectly fine with you using parts of my proposal. One thing that should be mentioned in the final proposal: "K" has been desysopped before, per [[Requests for comment/Croatian Wikipedia-misuse of admin tools by User:Kubura|this RfC]], so maybe "K" should receive a harsher punishment. What that should be, I have no idea. Thoughts? [[User:DraconicDark|DraconicDark]] ([[User talk:DraconicDark|talk]]) 19:56, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

:::Thanks. A good point. Let me add that "Q" too was desysopped in 2009 by the CW ArbCom. That was for off-wiki harassment; got him also a 1-year block. In 2010, he and his mates managed to dismantle the ArbCom and vote him back into position. Although there were serious warning signs before, this is when things really took a turn for the worse.

:::In my opinion, an indefinite ban for all three would have been fully deserved. I'd be against that, nevertheless. I'll be proposing a lifetime ban from entering RfA for all three. [[User:GregorB|GregorB]] ([[User talk:GregorB|talk]]) 20:28, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

==case in point of abuse, death of josip broz tito==

croatian wikidrama: meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/200.82.235.190

tulkas astaldo with kubura, speedygonsales, & fraxinus need to go, all of them should go:

this link on fine author desanka maksimovic, on the death of tito (perfect place) was posted on numerous occasions:

www.espreso.rs/vesti/drustvo/384019/ovo-je-desanka-maksimovic-rekla-kad-je-cula-da-je-tito-umro-kakva-izjava-najvece-srpske-pesnikinje

but tulkas astalod is reverting this; somebody who has any sense on wikimedia (good luck) should restore it!!!

hr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Razgovor:Smrt_Josipa_Broza_Tita&action=history[[Special:Contributions/66.74.9.75|66.74.9.75]] 19:48, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

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