Talk:Saxophone: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 15:44, 29 July 2005

Latest revision as of 08:53, 29 April 2025

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{{ArticleHistory

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{{Omnimusica-referencing}}

| action1date = January 19, 2004

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| action1link = Wikipedia:Archive/Refreshing brilliant prose - People and culture

''An event mentioned in this article is a [[MediaWiki:May 17 selected anniversaries|May 17 selected anniversary]]''

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==discussion==

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I just took this out: '''"Do we need saxophone lessons, buddy?"''' Minnie Bannister of the Goons.

| action2 = FAR

It isn't even the most famous Goon use of saxophone, which is when Captain Neddy of the US Cavalry says, "Somebody has been smuggling saxophones to the Indians", whereupon the sax section of the band plays "Indian Love Call".

| action2date = 19:13, 7 January 2007

| action2link = Wikipedia:Featured article review/Saxophone/archive1

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But none of it, amusing though it may be, belongs in an encyclopedia article on the [[saxophone]]. [[user:Ortolan88|Ortolan88]]

| action3date = January 8, 2008

| action3link = Talk:Saxophone/Archive_2#Good_article_on_hold_comments

| action3result = listed

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| action4 = PR

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| action4date = 15:42, 3 March 2008

| action4link = Wikipedia:Peer review/Saxophone/archive1

| action4result = reviewed

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Is there a reason Saxophonefingeringchart.jpeg is rotated 90 degrees? [[User:Lbs6380|Luke]] 02:50, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

| action5date = 22:54, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

| action5link = Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Saxophone/1

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| maindate = July 11, 2004

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| currentstatus = FFA

Does the musician playing the saxophone have to be there? Personally, I think it scares me more than helps me understand (I hate to think that I look like that when I play my tenor). [[User:Ilyanep|Ilyanep]] 21:57, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

| topic = music

| otd1date = 2004-05-17 | otd1oldid = 6718053

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| otd2date = 2005-05-17 | otd2oldid = 16335212

I'm afraid I don't know enough about saxaphones to take a crack at the [[Wikipedia:Captions|captions]], though I'd like to see them improved. Perhaps a player could give it a try. (See [[Wikipedia:Captions]] for some ideas.) Thanks! -- [[User:Ke4roh|ke4roh]] 15:43, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

| otd3date = 2011-06-28 | otd3oldid = 436560336

| otd4date = 2013-06-28 | otd4oldid = 561957468

| otd5date = 2016-06-28 | otd5oldid = 727338250

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{{WikiProject Musical Instruments|importance=Top}}

{{WikiProject Jazz|importance=top}}

{{WikiProject External links}}

{{WikiProject Belgium |importance=Low}}

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{{Instrument requested|date=January 2016}}

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== "Groups"/"Categories"/"Series"/"Families" of seven instruments - inconsistent terminology ==

== "distinctive loop bringing the bell upwards"? ==

In the article, especially the lede and first section, the "groups" of seven instruments (C/F and B flat/E flat) are called variously "groups", "categories", "series" and "families". I should like to use consistent wording throughout, but I don't know which is bet to use (I should favour "series"). Does anyone have any opinions? [[User:SimonTrew|Si Trew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]])

Uh... What about soprano Saxophones? There are also "straight" altos, for that matter...

== "Military" and "Orchestral" series ==

:it mentions that, in the next sentence....[[User:Rboatright|Rick Boatright]] 21:18, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Given the uncertainty as to whether the "military" and "orchestral" terms were ever applied to the two original series of saxophones, and the superfluous nature of such a debate to understanding the bare facts pertaining to those series, to wit, the B{{music|b}} and E{{music|b}} series under which most instruments were produced and a small minority of instruments in the C and F series, any reference to those terms in that context seems unnecessary. My only familiarity with "military pitch" is with reference to the High Pitch instruments made for marching bands and "military series" may reflect a conflation of those instruments with the early ones produced in the keys of the modern saxophone family.

It also says "The loop at the bell, whilst now synonymous with the saxophone, has little effect on

the sound". If you've ever heard a straight alto then you really notice the difference. It's perhaps

not so obvious with the sopranos but when I asked Snake Davies (session player to the stars) where

he stood on straight versus curved sopranos, he said "Put it this way, all three of my sopranos are

curved" - Dom.

== ThePlease Saxadd Companya fingering chart! ==

I would love to see a fingering chart in the article even if this isn't a "how-to" it would still greatly benefits users who would like to learn more on the saxophone and how to use it. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Tanasia4|Tanasia4]] ([[User talk:Tanasia4#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tanasia4|contribs]]) 03:25, 23 February 2022 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

The article mentions various manufacturers. When did saxophones cease to be manufactured by the Sax company? Does that company still exist? [[User:Adambisset|Adambisset]] 23:23, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

== "[[:Strich]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==

[[File:Information.svg|30px]]

The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Strich&redirect=no Strich]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 26#Strich}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> <b style="font-family:Monospace">-- [[User:Maddy from Celeste|Maddy from Celeste]] ([[User talk:Maddy from Celeste|WAVEDASH]])</b> 12:41, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

== Table of Saxophones ==

Adolphe's son, Adolphe Edouard, sold the family business to the Henri Selmer company in 1928. - Dom.

I was going to add the C Melody saxophones, Mezzo-Soprano and Conn-o-sax to the table of saxophones along with their SPN ranges, but the page is semi-protected and I haven't edited 4+ articles. I see you decided not to include/removed the C Melodies, or maybe that was another editor/author, but has this page really seen so much vandalism that semi-protection is necessary until 2028?

== erorrs in discussion of b-flat fingerings ==

Have a care,

First, two of the B-flat fingerings are mislabeled. The "bis" fingering is the middle one pictured, not the right one. The right one should be called the "side" B-flat. (source: common knowledge, but since that's unlikely to persuade to the person who made the mistake, here's a url that indirectly confirms that the bis key is that little key underneath the left-hand first finger: http://www.runyonproducts.com/clar.bis.html )

P. James Norris [[User:Pjamesnorris|Pjamesnorris]] ([[User talk:Pjamesnorris|talk]]) 23:19, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

== "Related instruments" section ==

Second, "the split Bb fingering is used in chromatic passages"? If by "chromatic" you mean a A-Bb-B or B-Bb-A passage, then most would consider the split fingering is a poor choice. (Use the side fingering.)

The section called "Related instruments" is missing some very important information: why are they even being mentioned? It is already pointed out, quite correctly, that most of these instruments are technically unrelated to saxophones, and are in fact much more like some other instrument. OK – then what's the point of writing about them? Is it because, even though they are nothing like a saxophone, we have proof that they were '''inspired by''' the saxophone, and not inspired by the clarinet or other instruments? That's great – let's show the proof. [[User:TooManyFingers|TooManyFingers]] ([[User talk:TooManyFingers|talk]]) 00:14, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

"The left-hand fingering is often used in passages that have no B-naturals"? Correct except (as per above) the left-hand fingering is called the bis fingering.

"while the bis fingering is useful for the A-Bb trill"? Both the bis fingering and the side fingering are good for A-Bb trill. (On the other hand, the Bb-C trill pretty much requires the side fingering, though in this case the side Bb key should remain held down even for the C so perhaps not the best example.)

Also, the "split" fingering is also frequently called the "one and one" fingering, and it should probably be noted that any one (or combination) of the three right-hand fingers may be used, not necessarily the top one.

Might also mention that with the bis fingering, the left index finger depresses both the B key and the bis key simultaneously. (Some novice players attemtp to depress the bis key with the second finger, which is either never done or is a rare/advanced technique, depending on who you ask.)

:Thanks for the suggestions. Done! --[[User:Bcrowell|Bcrowell]] 05:23, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've added a link to my own free printer-friendly basic fingering chart. I realize this could be seen as bogus self-promotion, so please feel free to delete it if you think it's not worth linking to. --[[User:Bcrowell|Bcrowell]] 23:41, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

==Materials (plastic mouthpieces)==

Regarding the following sentence:

: ''Plastic mouthpieces do not produce a good tone, and should not be used if at all possible.''

This assertion has been made before. I'm certain that thousands of saxophonists would disagree. I've changed the statement to reflect a previous edit which I thought was more NPOV. (Previous edits along these same lines equated plastic mouthpieces with student mouthpieces, and vice versa. I would suggest instead that '''cheap''' mouthpieces are inferior because of the finish, regardless of the material. (And there are exceptions even among the cheapest mouthpieces, e.g. many players would agree that Rico Royal mouthpieces are a good value.) A mouthpiece technician could re-face the mouthpiece and it would sound great, yet still be made of plastic.) I've also removed the external link to classicsax.com, as mentioning a mouthpiece vendor in a description of mouthpieces seems like spam (though this may not have been the intent). -- [[User:Gyrofrog|Gyrofrog ]] [[User_talk:Gyrofrog|(talk)]] 13:33, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

: The same anonymous editor has posted the same content, and based on my above comments I have reverted the edit, again. If the editor happens to read this, can we please discuss this here? Your edit is highly [[WP:POV|POV]]. -- [[User:Gyrofrog|Gyrofrog ]] [[User_talk:Gyrofrog|(talk)]] 20:35, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

:: For future reference (in the event of relevant future edits), as well as to respond to [[User:Taxman|Taxman]]'s request for references (''see below''), I wish to direct interested parties to page 17 of ''The Art of Saxophone Playing'' by Larry Teal:

:::''A preference as to material used is up to the individual, and the advantages of each are a matter of controversy. Mouthpieces of various materials which have exactly the same dimensions, including the chamber and outside measurements as well as the facing, play very nearly the same. . . . Plastic has proved to be a good material and is in wide use . . . and is popular in student mouthpieces, where ruggedness and precision are required at low cost.''

:: I will add this reference to the article. -- [[User:Gyrofrog|Gyrofrog ]] [[User_talk:Gyrofrog|(talk)]] 19:18, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

== Request for references ==

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]] policy. Part of that is to make sure articles [[Wikipedia:Cite sources|cite their sources]]. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check|Fact and Reference Check Project]] has more information. Thank you, and please [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Taxman&action=edit&section=new leave me a message] when you have added a few references to the article. - [[User:Taxman|Taxman]] 17:20, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

:Well, I've added one, anyway: Larry Teal's ''The Art of Saxophone Playing.'' Actually I'm surprised this wasn't already mentioned. -- [[User:Gyrofrog|Gyrofrog ]] [[User_talk:Gyrofrog|(talk)]] 19:33, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

::Great, thank you. Got more? :) - [[User:Taxman|Taxman]] 20:25, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

== Vibrato? ==

Vibrato is an integral part of saxophone playing. It isn't mentioned once in this article! I think it needs to be included. And why is this nominated as one of the best Wikipedia articles? I think it lacks a lot of information. --[[User:Berserk798|Berserk798]] 17:49, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

: This was a featured article. Then, due to a lack of references, the article was basically whiped and is in the process of being redone.

:Vibrato is not an integral part of saxophone playing - not even in classical playing in which I often hear the most evil of vibratos that could shake the world into pieces. Mention vibrato you like, but it is nowhere near integral. What's integral to saxophone playing is the instrument, the player, the ability to play and nothing more. &brvbar; [[User:Reisio|Reisio]] 18:13, 2005 Jun 17 (UTC)

== Restore gutted content ==

A whole lot of content was deleted from this article, including three entire sections (namely Mouthpieces, Reeds, and Writing for the saxophone). This is pretty drastic and probably should have been discussed here first. I also found this note embedded in the article (though commented out):

: ''I am going to skip parts of technique to leave for others. Right now, writing from the technique books I have on hand and m own personal experience, I am going to write Embourchure now and Altissimo tomorrow when I can find my Sigurd Rashear'' [sic] ''book.''

I get the impression that an editor has been treating this as a work-in-progress. Please remember that the article is still viewable in the meantime. May I suggest that you not work on the article piecemeal? Instead, until you're ready to finsh, leave the rest of the article intact. (Also I've taken the above comment out of the article, it really belongs here.) To be frank, given the anonymous edits and disappearing content, I thought someone had been vandalizing the article. -- [[User:Gyrofrog|Gyrofrog ]] [[User_talk:Gyrofrog|(talk)]] 13:45, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

: More restoration: all the material following (what was left of) the "Technique" section was deleted, including references, external links, categories and interwikis. Whatever else you think doesn't belong in an article about saxophones, you really should leave that stuff in. -- [[User:Gyrofrog|Gyrofrog ]] [[User_talk:Gyrofrog|(talk)]] 14:15, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

== Clinton/Yeltsin photo ==

I don't feel that this photo is appropriate in this article, since Bill Clinton is not really a saxophonist. Perhaps a photo of Marcel Mule or Charlie Parker would be more appropriate.

: I agree that another photo would be more appropriate. The trick, perhaps, is finding a photo whose copyright doesn't prevent it from being included in Wikipedia. Another great picture would be the one of [[Sigurd Rascher]] posing with all the members of the saxophone family (or [[Rahsaan Roland Kirk]] playing multiple saxes at once). -- [[User:Gyrofrog|Gyrofrog ]] [[User_talk:Gyrofrog|(talk)]] 17:04, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Well someone's added an image of some German guy I've never heard of, but it's not Clinton. There's got to be a photo out there that someone took of Rahsaan at some live show somewhere... &brvbar; [[User:Reisio|Reisio]] 17:43, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

:::That would be me - excuse me a moment, whilst I slap my wrist for editing without reading the talk page first. In any case, I periodically work through various sources of good images and try and find them homes. I hadn't heard of [[Klaus Doldinger]] either, but the wider version of this image just missed being made a featured picture on the Commons (voters largely didn't like the other members of the band). If he is playing in Jazz festivals in Germany he must be reasonably good. I just figured this page could use a picture of someone playing a sax with gusto. -- [[User:Solipsist|Solipsist]] 19:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::Indeed, I meant no disrespect or disapproval. :) &brvbar; [[User:Reisio|Reisio]] 19:48, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

== Family Members, Stritch/manzello/saxello etc. ==

Any specific reason for the deletion of the "manzello/stritch" references, or was this part of the "clean-up/content gutting"? Significantly more likely that readers will encounter these "mutts"than thatthey'll ever run across the true sopranino instrument.

--[[User:RFGS|Silverlake Bodhisattva]] 4 July 2005 22:52 (UTC)

:What references? Could you link the diff? I seriously doubt people are more likely to encounter a stritch or manzello more than a sopranino, but it's no matter - add references back in if you like. &brvbar; [[User:Reisio|Reisio]] 2005 July 4 23:27 (UTC)

BTW if, per the above discussion re; the pictures, someone puts up a picture of Roland Kirk playing, there's almost certainly going to be either a stritch or a manzello in the pic. I also suspect that his recordings (which would be the overwhleming majority of stritch/manzello recordings out there) may have sold more copies, at this point, than the aggregate sales of '''all''' recordings on which sopranino plays any significant role (and I say this as someone who actually owns at least one recording with a sopranino on it, and has heard one played live.)--[[User:RFGS|Silverlake Bodhisattva]] 6 July 2005 23:17 (UTC)

Will somebody please add in the references again, already? All varieties of saxophone are absolutely relevant in this article.

:Why don't you? &brvbar; [[User:Reisio|Reisio]] 2005 July 6 21:52 (UTC)

Now, I'm trying to hew closely to the new verifiability/authentication standards, and having dug around some more, I'm less clear as to what different horns are actually out there, as contrasted with what different people call the same horn. There are now commercially available, contemporary-manufactured straight altos, at least one straight tenor, and a number "half-straight" sopranos, which seem to be equivalent to the King Co. saxello or Kirk's manzello. I believe that there's at least one contemporary stritch manufacturer/builder, though I haven't located it yet.

Reed players/collectors: anyone got a saxello [['''and''']] a manzello, and how do they differ? Anyone got a stritch '''and''' a "straight alto"? How do they differ?

--[[User:RFGS|Silverlake Bodhisattva]] 6 July 2005 23:17 (UTC)

:I would have to double-check, but I thought "manzello" is the name Kirk made up for the saxello or similar instrument. He may have even cobbled some of these together from the parts of different horns. I've got a Kirk biography on the shelf that I've been meaning to get into, anyway. (Uh, the biography, not the shelf.) -- [[User:Gyrofrog|Gyrofrog ]] [[User_talk:Gyrofrog|(talk)]] 6 July 2005 23:38 (UTC)

Per multi-reed player Vinny Golia, who apparently patronized Kirk's instrument supplier at one time, and had met R.K., this analysis appears to be correct; "stritch" and "manzello" appear to be Kirk's names for altered straight alto and semi-straight soprano/saxello respectively.--[[User:RFGS|Silverlake Bodhisattva]] 21:21, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

===Content restored===

I have restored the saxello/manzello/stritch paragraph from, what I can tell, was its last appearance on 11 April. For whatever reason, the article was seriously gutted of content on that date (I had restored several sections in May but apparently it didn't include these other edits before 11 April.) Why did someone decide all that information wasn't relevant? (Rhetorical question. See "Restored gutted content" above. What particularly frustrates me was that someone deleted the content, said s/he would be back to make revisions, and then never followed up, leaving a fragment of an article.)

So anyway... yes, some sources to verify the information would be great, but in the meantime I'd personally rather see that at least the old information was still available. FWIW there may be more gutted content in those pre-11 April revisions. -- [[User:Gyrofrog|Gyrofrog ]] [[User_talk:Gyrofrog|(talk)]] 7 July 2005 00:04 (UTC)

:P.S. This discussion was split into three sections. It seemed since it was all about the same subject, one section would suffice. We could always break it into sub-sections (like this one). Probably people were just clicking on "Post a comment" which adds a new section by default. -- [[User:Gyrofrog|Gyrofrog ]] [[User_talk:Gyrofrog|(talk)]]

== [[List of saxophonists]] ==

Just FYI for those that don't really keep tabs - a few of us have been working on [[List of saxophonists|this big list]]. We could use more classical (or even just non-jazz) saxophonists listed (not that more jazzers wouldn't be good, too). Do participate. :)

<small>I didn't know Marcel Mule & Sigurd Rascher both lived so long and died in the same year. Far out.</small> &brvbar; [[User:Reisio|Reisio]] 15:44, 2005 July 29 (UTC)