Talk:Kaaba: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 16:59, 11 August 2005

Latest revision as of 18:33, 18 August 2025

Line 1:

{{ArabicTalk header}}

{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|1=

This is to the best of my knowledge and needs checking; any scholars of Islam want to take a look at this? [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] 08:55 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)

{{WikiProject Religion |importance=Top |Interfaith=yes}}

{{WikiProject Islam |importance=Top}}

{{WikiProject Saudi Arabia |importance=Top}}

{{WikiProject Architecture |importance=Top}}

}}

{{Notcensored}}

{{User:MiszaBot/config

|algo=old(31d)

|archive=Talk:Kaaba/Archive %(counter)d

|counter=4

|maxarchivesize=270K

|archiveheader={{talk archive navigation}}

|minthreadstoarchive=1

|minthreadsleft=4

}}

{{merged-from|Tawaf|9 August 2020}}

Presumably at the antipodal point to the Kaaba, the Qibla is in all directions?

{{OnThisDay|date1=2020-10-31|oldid1=986098131}}

== Emoji ==

:Interesting question. I reckon this point to be in the South Pacific, 230 miles from the nearest land, which is the [[Pitcairn Islands]]. -- [[User:Heron|Heron]]

:My squint at a globe put it about midway between [[Tahiti]] and Pitcairn, in [[French Polynesia]]. Rummaging on the 'net[http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/french_polynesia/] I found the nearest land to be Tematangi or Bligh Is., 140.62W 21.64S[http://islands.unep.ch/IKM.htm#1804] [[User:142.177.18.54|142.177.18.54]] 18:57, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Kabaa is represented in Unicode as an emoji at code point U+1F54B: 🕋 [[Special:Contributions/159.28.79.75|159.28.79.75]] ([[User talk:159.28.79.75|talk]]) 08:38, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

Sounds like the answer may rest on the Islamic reckoning of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. On the other hand, one might be able to derive the answer by seeing which airlines serve Mecca from that point in the South Pacific. [[User:168...|168...]] 19:27 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)

:I have added a line about it to the See Also section. [[User:JMF|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:JMF|talk]]) 16:11, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

----

== Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2025 ==

If someone knows the exact coordinates of Kaaba, maybe they could put that into the article. That would make it possible to compute the qibla from any other ___location whose coordinates are known.

{{edit semi-protected|Kaaba|answered=yes}}

:One reference [http://www.irbs.com/lists/navigation/0008/0039.html] states 21° 25' 24" N, 39° 49' 24" E, and other less precise references approximate this closely. Does anyone have exact coordinates from a system such as GPS? -- [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] 07:53, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

The page mentions that the Muslims directed their prayers towards Jeruselam, and this was only changed to Makkah after their migration to Medinah. This is incorrect. Muslims changed their direction of prayer to Jersuelam only after they came to Medinah and after about 1.5 year, it was changed back to Makkah. I would also recommend removing the images simply because it is a politically heated subjected, and depictions are generally considered Islamophobic now [[User:Umairlooms|Umairlooms]] ([[User talk:Umairlooms|talk]]) 13:28, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

:{{Not done}}: please provide [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> — '''[[User:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i>]]''' ^{''([[User talk:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">music</i>]])''} 14:28, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

:Also on the subject of images, please see [[WP:NOTCENSORED]]. We don't remove images simply because some take offence. — '''[[User:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i>]]''' ^{''([[User talk:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">music</i>]])''} 14:29, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

== "[[:Islam box]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==

[[File:Information.svg|30px]]

The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islam_box&redirect=no Islam box]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{section link|1=Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 April 2#Islam box}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Rusalkii|<span style="color:#259a83">Rusalkii</span>]] ([[User talk:Rusalkii|talk]]) 07:01, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2025 ==

==Inside the Kaaba?==

{{edit semi-protected|Kaaba|answered yes|answered=yes}}

As the Kaaba is a building, what is inside it? Does anyone ever go in? If anyone reading knows these things it would be good to see them included in the article. &mdash; [[User:Trilobite|Trilobite]] [[User_talk:Trilobite|(Talk)]] 17:39, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Y : It says Abraham built the Kaaba. He did not . re: the Jewish Torah.The Old Testament. Abraham was never anywhere near Mecca, nor Medina for that matter. Historical evidence. [[User:CeeDevi|CeeDevi]] ([[User talk:CeeDevi|talk]]) 10:50, 18 August 2025 (UTC)

:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Aydoh8|Aydo]][[User talk:Aydoh8|h8]]^{[[Special:Contributions/Aydoh8|[what&nbsp;have&nbsp;I&nbsp;done&nbsp;now?]]]} 12:37, 18 August 2025 (UTC)

The Ka'aba is not completely empty. The building is opened twice a year for a ceremony known as "the cleaning of the Ka'aba." This ceremony takes place roughly 15 days before the start of Ramadan and the same period of time before the start of the annual pilgrimage. The inside of the building is clad and floored with marble to about half its hight and covered with a green cloth with gold embroidered verses of the Qu'ran for the rest. On a cross beam there are a number of lamps and there is also a small table for incense burners, otherwise there is nothing else. The marble cladding is perfumed with scented oil, the same used to perfume the black stone. A number of tablets with Qu'ranic inscription are inset in the marble. The keys to the Ka'aba are held by the Sheibani family who have had this honour since the time of the prophet. Members of the family greet visitors to the inside of the Ka'aba on the occasion of the cleaning ceremony. A small number of dignatories and foreign diplomats are invited to participate in the ceremony. Inside the Ka'aba visitors pray in the direction of the outside walls. Normally there is no other occasion when people can enter the building except when the Kiswa or black cloth covering the Ka'aba is changed during the Hajj. The Governor of Mecca leads the team who ritually clean the structure during the ceremony with simple brooms. Source: I have had the honour of participating in this simple but moving ceremony and praying inside the structure.[[User:Wildbe|Wildbe]] 09:13, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:Excellent questions. Perhaps any experts reading could also clarify how "50 ft. high by 35 ft long by 40 ft" makes a cube... Do we need to change that to "roughly cuboid"? [[User:Hajor|&ndash;''Hajor'']]

It's Clearly not a perfect Cube, and inside is just calligrapic artwork from the Qur'an. It's centuries old and priceless. It's Fairly small, and I've always wondered how 300 odd 'idols' could fit in there, but apparently they did. You can go in but it's not advised to do so on hajj, because it's too crowded and dangerous, so if you wanna see it you should go on an Umrah tour.

:The 360 idols were located at the Kaaba, but not inside the 'sanctuary'. They were placed in niches on the inside of the surrounding wall.

:The idea that they formed a 'zodiac "machine"' of some sort is too vague for me: What is a zodiac machine?

==Qibla==

While the first Qibla was Jeusalem, it could not have been in the direction of the Al-Aqsa mosqua, as that did not exists at the time (As we know it). The "farthest Masjid, or place of worship" the Jewish Temple of Soloman, or Temple Mount, and during the night voayge the Hadiths say the Jews mocked him and asked him to descripe what he saw there and he supposedly described it perfectly, and they supposedly converted.

==Abraham==

From the article:

''"According to tradition, the Kaaba was built by the prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) and his son Ishmael. However, there is no evidence of this."''

:Surely there could be a more sensitive way of phrasing this. After all, tradition is evidence of sorts, even if unreliable and not determinative. -- [[User:Cimon avaro|Cimon]] 01:52, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)

:I said to myself: given the central place of the Kaaba in muslim practice, this must be in the scripture, not just "according to tradition". So, I googled my way to an [http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/ online version of the Quran], where I found [http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/22.htm chapter 22. The Pilgrimage] and in it the following verses:

::26. Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

::27. "And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;

::28. "That they may witness the benefits (provided) for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days appointed, over the cattle which He has provided for them (for sacrifice): then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want.

::29. "Then let them complete the rites prescribed for them, perform their vows, and (again) circumambulate the Ancient House."

::30. Such (is the Pilgrimage): whoever honours the sacred rites of Allah, for him it is good in the Sight of his Lord. Lawful to you (for food in Pilgrimage) are cattle, except those mentioned to you (as exception): but shun the abomination of idols, and shun the word that is false,-

:Clearly verses 26 and 29 can be interpreted as a claim that the Kaaba was built by Abraham. I don't have access to a more modernized translation nor to the original, nor do I read Arabic, so ''I'' will have to leave it at that, but to me it seems that the quotation from the article is not just insensitive but wrong. &mdash;[[User:Miguel|Miguel]] 03:44, 2004 Nov 27 (UTC)

::That Prophets Abraham and Ishmael have built the Kaaba is clearly stated in the Quran in Surat [[Al-Baqara]], Ayas 127-129 [http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.127]. You are right, the wording is insensitive and quite unnecessary indeed, since in most of the articles about religion there can be no material proof except the respective tradition. --[[User:Abdousi|Abdousi]] 06:29, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

== Qibla redirect to kaaba is incorrect ==

I was looking for Qibla and I was redirected to Kaaba. This is incorrect. Kaaba is current Qibla. Doesn't mean it was qibla for all time qibla should have a small informative article on Qibla with links to 'Aqsa' and 'Kaaba'.

[[User:Zain engineer|Zain]] 21:30, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:Go on then!

== architectural history ==

If we ignore the legend that Abraham built the Kaaba, Muslim historical tradition says that the first Kaaba in this place was built in the early sixth century by the tribe of Gurhum. Its shape was that of a rectangle, with a semi-circle attached to one of the shorter sides. It was not nearly as high as the modern Kaaba.

The second Kaaba was built in 608 by the people of Mecca, and had the same shape, size and orientation: towards Jerusalem. It was higher than the first, about nine meters. Six pillars supported the roof. It had two doors on opposite sides, and probably some windows. It was destroyed during the failed Umayyad seige of Mecca in 683.

The third Kaaba was built immediately afterwards by az-Zubair. This time, a roughly square portion of the rectangle was built higher than the rest of the building. This part was now as high as the Kaaba of today (about 15 meters). Its roof was supported by three pillars, it still had two doors, and a number of windows. Inside, the square part was connected to the remainder by a wide arch.

The fourth Kaaba is the one we see today. (It has been completely rebuilt several times, but no more major architectural changes were made.) It was built to the order of the Umayyad Khalif Abdelmalek around 692. Abdelmalek set out to build the Kaaba to the prophet Muhammad's own specifications. The semi-cirular part was torn down to a hight of a few feet. The low wall that was left standing can still be seen today. The part between the square and the semi-circle was removed altogether. The arch was bricked up, as were all the windows and the door on the south-west side. The lowest two meters of the other door were also bricked up, so that today one needs a ladder to go through it.

I think this may be a bit too much detail though.

P.S. The last rebuild was in 1627.

== Major revision ==

I removed some material re idols, as I don't believe that it's academically verifiable. I think it might just be Muslim tradition, though I could be wrong. I removed material about Mecca as a great center of international trade, as that is now believed to be pious exaggeration. If we're not going to give all sides of it, we should just leave it out. That's better done in the article on Mecca, in any case.

I also removed a para about the wonder of the Kaaba that I thought was too pious Muslim POV. I reorganized into sections and added some material that one editor had put into the talk page. It's a big reorg and could probably be improved. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 20:55, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Given that all Muslims have to go, according to their religion, to Mecca, once in their lives, it seems extremely plausible that it would become a great centre of international trade, simply due to the large numbers of wide rangingly foreign people present there. [[User:81.156.176.226|81.156.176.226]] 19:04, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

: I guess I wasn't clear. I'm referring to the pre-Muslim Mecca. Mecca has never been a trade depot SINCE Muhammad. Patricia Crone wrote a book contra the old "Mecca was the most powerful city in Arabia" concept. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 01:06, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Zora, the whole idea of Banu Ummayad resisting Islam is due to that they feelt their idols being the source of the trade. If you are going to ommit that, you are ommiting a big part of how Muslims see on the Ummayad motivation on why they opposed monotheism. If you feel its non-sens, give it a "muslims belive", dont delet it. I mean, the caravans going to yemen and syria, the non-war month... its all part of the kabaa. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 03:00, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

: The article may not include as much detail as you want, but there are enough links to other articles that people can explore if they want more. We can't squeeze all of the history of Islam 600-632 in there! Do you want to suggest some links that should be there and aren't? (Be warned in advance that I don't think the Sunni/Shi'a conflict should be shoehorned into here!)

: It was the Quraysh as a whole, not just the Umayyads, who resisted Islam. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 03:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, it can just be stated that the Kabaa and its idols is belived by Muslims to be the economical base of the Ummayad. Furthermore, Banu Hashim is also a part of Quraish and they resisted the Ummayad.

--[[User:Striver|Striver]] 17:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

: Striver, not all of the Banu Hashim were originally Muslim, just some of them. Furthermore, there were more branches to the Quraysh genealogy than just Abd Shams (of which the Umayyads were just a sub-clan) and Hashim. There were also Nawfal and al-Muttalib. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 23:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

==Pictures?==

Are there any pictures showing the Kaabaa without it's black coverings? [[User:Commking|Commking]] July 11 2005

: Possibly, but I don't know where one would go to find PUBLIC DOMAIN pictures of that type. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 05:20, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

== Kaaba as Hindu temple ==

One editor -- I believe it must be Tuxthepenguin, sometimes editing as an anon -- seems to believe that the Kaaba was a Hindu temple, and periodically edits the Kaaba page to add this belief.

Wikipedia tries to be NPOV, and include the arguments from all ''widespread'' beliefs, but this belief is so minority as to be imperceptible to those who don't share it. I have NEVER EVER seen it advanced by anyone other than the anon. It is non-notable, and doesn't deserve inclusion. Tux, if you can make thousands of converts and be featured in Time magazine, come back and add the info re your beliefs. Otherwise, please don't try to use the article as a soapbox. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 21:43, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

== Why? ==

Does anyone know why the Ka'aba was built in the first place?

Obviously there will be a difference between secular academic views and religious views, but neither are in the article [[User:81.156.176.226|81.156.176.226]] 18:57, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

== Kaa'ba built by ... and for ... ?==

From what I can gather, Allah (God) ordained a place on Earth to be a focal point of worship; Adam built this place of worship (not sure if it was called the Kaa'ba at this stage). Later, Abraham and Ishmael rebuilt it and Abraham is considered the true founder of the Holy Shrine (according to the Qur'an) - according to the link I've added. I'm not going to put this into the article (yet), as I want to check the details of this and finding other reliable sources --[[User:Mpatel|Mpatel]] 17:33, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

==Controversial section on people born in Kaaba==

Regarding the new section that's been dumped here:

*Firstly, it's not well presented; just a list of names and external links.

*Some of the the external links appear to be pro-Shia/Sunni websites; nothing wrong with this per se (well, maybe POV issues here), just that some of them appear to be unreliable (no sources given in them). I'm going to remove some of them, if enough people agree on this (I'll wait a week).

*The whole issue of who was born in the Kaaba seems to be controversial. The section should go a little deeper into this. For example, where did the controversy come from ? Is it just a manifestation of the Sunni/Shia split or something else ? --[[User:Mpatel|Mpatel]] 12:00, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

----

This is the result of a Shi'a user, Striver, who was trying to insert the "fact" that Ali was born in the Kaaba into the Ali article. Told that this was folklore, he created an article called "List of people born in the Kaaba". The article was put up for deletion; it was deleted and the material in the article was moved here.

Striver is also fond of "proving" things by citing hadith, and his article consisted mostly of assertions and (da'if) hadith references.

It does seem to be a widespread Shi'a folk belief that Ali was born in the Kaaba, and I think that it could be mentioned in a few sentences in this article. I think the rest of it should be deleted, though that may evoke the wrath of Striver. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 13:03, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

: I see. In fact, I'm going to leave the links which have reliable sources, but I will delete the rest immediately. --[[User:Mpatel|Mpatel]] 13:19, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

== Sources ==

This issue has to be dealt with: I've deleted a statement regarding some scholars' views that the Qibla was changed as a result of some rift between Muhammed (pbuh) and the Jews as I've never come across this before (it's not well-known, at least) - if there's a reliable reference, for the claim, then please provide it. I did not delete the meteorite issue, as I have a few references (but not with me) which I will include. --[[User:Mpatel|Mpatel]] 17:34, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

: I would have to search to find references, but I believe that a number of Western scholars assert a connection between Muhammad's difficulties with the Jews of Medina, and the change of qibla. It's not just kookery. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 00:02, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

== added the arabic text.... (about the kaaba in arabic) ==

i've left the notice at the top in case anyone disagrees with what i've done or how i did it... --[[User:GNU4eva|<FONT COLOR = "Red">GNU</FONT><B>4</B><FONT COLOR = "Blue">Eva</FONT>]] 04:36, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

== Striver's removal of "Most Sunni ..." ==

Striver removed the sentence re Sunni not believing that anyone, Ali or Hakim, was born in the Kaaba. I was going to write an indignant para detailing how wrong he was, but some googling convinced me that he was right! I found several Sunni sites praising Hakim and asserting that he had been born in the Kaaba.

Hakim seems to have been a very influential and wealthy Meccan who didn't convert to Islam until Mecca had submitted to Muhammad. Muhammad was extremely concerned to win him over and treated him with great kindness. Hakim is the purported source of the hadith re "not selling what is not with you", which is the root of a great deal of Islamic commercial law. Hakim's evidence would otherwise be deprecated because he was an opponent of Muhammad and on the surface of it, an opportunistic convert, so he's been given the extra distinction of being born in the Kaaba, which strengthens the hadith. I sense scholarly busybodies at work here. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 22:53, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

== Better (more instructive) pics ? ==

I think it would be a good idea to (either replace the second pic, as it seems irrelevant, or) add a pic showing a (distant) shot of the Kabba with all the pilgrims praying (the 'concentric circles' effect). Reason: the universal prayer direction is brought out and this is the main point of the Kaaba and hence should be emphasised. I'm not too familiar with downloading pics on WP, especially copyright issues, so I invite more knowledgable Wikipedians to pursue this. ---[[User:Mpatel|Mpatel]] [[User_talk:Mpatel | (talk)]] 15:22, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

: Sorry to be so slow in replying. I was showing the town to visitors. There's a toolbox on the left side of the screen, with a link to UPLOAD FILE. Click there and follow directions. I've done it a few times and it's worked -- I think. I still haven't figured out to do the Public Domain notice. Get the picture up first and then we'll see. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 07:50, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

::Not a problem. Ok, I've uploaded 3 pics of the Kaaba - copyright unsure: [[Image:kaabacircle.jpg|thumb|left|220 px]], [[Image:kaababigcircle.jpg|thumb|left|220 px]] and [[Image:kaabacleaning.jpg|thumb|left 220 px]].

The first one is probably adequate for our purposes, the second one is outstanding, the third one is really about the cleaning ceremony. If they are all ok (copyright), then we may as well use the 3rd and either the 1st or 2nd.