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== Article lock ==
I noticed an edit war going on here. Can we discuss having this article locked like [[Macedonian Slavs]]?
Why do Greek people object to the historic Slav name [[Solun]]? Vladko
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* Seems fairly neutrally written (but different conclusions reached):
** [http://faq.macedonia.org/history/badian.html]
** ]http://www.macedonian-empire.cjb(.)net/] (Saying Macedonia was not Greek)
** [http://www.makedonija.info/agreement.html] [http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/95-27866.html] (UN agreement between Greece and "FYROM")
** [http://www.patrides.com/may04/enmartis.htm] (Saying Macedonia was Greek)
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::'''It is interesting to know that from more than 10 nations living in the region, only we are concentrated entirely in the teritory of the region Macedonia'''. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 15:42, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
:Yes, I'm Romanian, and I'm not 100% biased against the Slavic Macedonians. But for Macedonian Slavs to claim special descent (as many claim) from the ancient Macedonians is dishonest. Based on historical evidence, historical consensus, I would bet that the Slavic Macedonians have less ancient Macedonian genes than Greeks. The Slavic Macedonians released flawed genetic research a few years ago to try to claim otherwise, but their claims have been rejected by the genetic experts in the field. ---[[User:Decius|Tony Starks]]
-- Just some clarification, alot of Macedonians talk about being descendants from Alexander the Great... he had no children and therefore no one can be directly descended from him... --
== HLA Genes research ==
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::::This is my answer to all your assimilation claims and doubts. You give me claims and nationalistic claims, and I give you scientific research of HLA genes (hope you know what HLA genes represent).
::::So, Decius, I hope you did not bet a lot of money. More researches will follow, you might lose everything you have. :) [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:36, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
:If you are talking about this link:[http://www.mymacedonia.net/links/email.htm, you need
:::Decius, the link that I specified is pro-Macedonian web page, that is clear. That is the first link that appears in google, because is very popular. And, the survey is very well organized. That is why I put it there. And, that is the reason why I put the other link to google, so anyone of you can pick which link he prefers. They all show the same survey. It lasted for several years and it finaly finished some 4-5 months ago. It is getting very good acceptance through the world, as you can see.
:::Yes, I agree, this is just a start in HLA genes research and it can not be a sure proof about the conections with the antique Macedonians. But, having on mind the intensiti of the survey and the number of DNA samples included, same as the leading '''neutral''' scientists (from Spain), it proves 2 things:
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:::No, I was not talking about the Roman Illyria province. I was talking about the old Illyrian teritory and saying that the teritories populated with Albanians in present days are much, much larger than the original Illyrian teritory. [[User:62.162.199.17|62.162.199.17]] 03:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
:I didn't erase any of your posts, so don't erase any of mine. Whatever connection I may have with "Greece or Bulgaria" does not change the fact that I am not 100% biased.
:::The text that I gave you, on the link above is taken from a Russian book from the 1960s. This issue is very popular lately and just in last 10 years there are more than 7 lingistic books that work on it. 3 of them are from Macedonian linguists, but the other 4 are from Chech, Russian and 2 Polish linguists.
:::All words given as example in the text are a part of the lexicon of [[Hesychius of Alexandria]], or words that could be found on the Antient Macedonian Coins (from which Republic of Macedonia possess significant part). Some of them were maybe used also in the Thracian or Illyrian language, but they can be found in the Antient Macedonian too. Same as you can find the word "antena" in several new languages with different origin. Again, let me repeat that there are just about 500-700 words that are seen as a part of the Antient Macedonian language, but do not forget that all those words can be found in Greek books and lexicons (the Greek culture was superior in that time), which might mean that their original transcription is changed to be able to write them using the Greek alphabet and rules. Another thing that you should not forget is the enormous difference between the old Greek and the new Greek language. My wife has a language school here in Skopje and I was able to get many information from her employee, a Greek teacher from Greek nationality. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 17:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
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:::Again, '''no one''' of us (Greeks or Macedonians) can claim exclusive rights over the term Macedonia, but you can not take my ethnicity and culture away (which again, no one claims is 100% conected with the Antuque Macedonians). [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 17:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
::Okay Isterbinski
::::Thank you. I feel the same way. Actually, I think that the complete issue between the nowday Macedonians and Greeks is senceless, because it appeared only because of the nationalistic minds in both of the countries. Well educated normal person in modern Macedonia or Greece know that non of us can have exclusivity over the Antique Macedonia.
::::The real problem is between the Bulgarians and nowdays Macedonians, because they ignore the Macedonian nationality, language and culture for centuries, including now, in the 21st century.
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:There
:::The research was involving selevaral nations, including a Macedonian scientist. The research involves a Spanish scientist that lives in Greece for more than 30 years too. Lets please note that this is a officially publicated and suported research.
:::Another thing that I want to note is that it only covers the HLA genes and their presence. How they appeared in some nation, we can always only guess.
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:::Anyway, I would like to repeat something. Whatever result appears at the end, even if we are 60% Antique Macedonians and 40% Slavic, Macedonians '''can not''' have the exclusive right to use the term Macedonia. '''No one can'''. Agree? [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:16, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
:Yes I agree on that last point. [[User:Decius|Alexandru]] 02:48, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
::I would like to thank Istirbinski for finally publishing the data that the present-day Macedonian Slavs have 60% East Mediterranean genes (which he mistakenly attributes to the Ancient Macedonians). Darling, Bulgarians have exactly 60% East Mediterranean genes, as well (see [ http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html ]), no better proof that we are the same people can ever be provided:-))))))). [[User:VMORO|VMORO]] 07:49, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
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::::That would be very unlickely. The research says that the sub-Saharan gene in Greeks "entered" latter, most possibly after Crist. The research does not say this, but maybe the Greeks that came from Minor Asia brought it. But, this is just a wild guess. As I said before, more research will come, so them we can talk more about it. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 00:16, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
:I. Sterbinski, it is not very unlikely. The dubious (it is dubious) report itself says, "The conclusion is that part of the Greek genetic pool may be sub-Saharan and that the admixture has occured at an uncertain but ancient time."
:::I would like to point out that bringing that survey in this discusions was not ment for denying anything Greek or what the Greeks feel as Greek. There were 2 things I wanted to point out:
:::1) The nowdays Macedonians are of mixed origin (not just Slavic), like some people here claim.
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:::Another thing that you say that the research is dubious, but no one till now ever doubted it from the scientifical point of view. To build strong conclusions, more researches are needed and much more work. The only conclusions that are certain are the ones given above. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 00:49, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:The "research" has been rejected by the experts in the field, because it is flawed. I don't know why you are even still talking about it. [[User:Decius|Decius]] 01:29, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::You are talking about a wrong researcvh. See bellow. There are several proofs of how mistaken you are. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 06:52, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
===Genetic NPOV===
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:2)Accept its conclusions (HLA genes research is to be mentioned in the article)
If we do accept it as relevant to the article, then we must not ''speculate'' about its contents. Tony Starks (:D) as far as I know, you are speculating. "''If they define East Mediterranean as genes found in and around [[Anatolia]]''" is speculating, by definition. "''Ancient Macedonians would also have had "sub-Saharan genes"''", is also a speculation, because that claim is not supported by any other genetical or historical research. Note that Jews also have "East Mediterranean" genes, so you are actually claiming that Greeks are "older" than Jews. Also note that the same research is used by the Lebanese to claim ancestry from the Phoenicians - [[http://phoenicia(.)org/genetics.html]].
''If'' we include the HLA genes research in the article, then we must accept that it ''claims'' that ''Macedonians (nationality) belong to an "older" genetical substratum than modern Greeks, same as the Jews, French, Italians etc., and that, probably Macedonians (nationality) are genetically linked with the Ancient Macedonians'' and note that this research is used by some ''Macedonian and Lebanese nationalists as a definite proof for their Ancient Macedonian and Phoenician ancestry, respectably''. (that they, those nationalists ''claim'' so, is ''verifiable''). The Greek arguments (from the reaction of the nationalists to the response of the scientists and historians) to the research must be supported by citing sources which can be found outside this discussion.(that is something that the [[NPOV]] policy requires, [[cite your sources]]).
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:::We don't have to continue talking about this research. I am not trying to keep talking about it, I am just replying to your posts when you try to deny it. As soon as you stop denying it, I won't keep talking about it.
:::And, erasing this part of the discusion is not fair. That is hidding facts from the other readers and we both know that is not OK. If you have something to say, post it here, but don't erase the parts that you personaly don't like. Othervise, I will have to complain about that to the other, neutral administrators. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:10, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:On the other hand, if we want to rewind history to 1930's [[Nazi]] eugenics, then by all means let's present the report as un-politically motivated objective science within the article. I'm sure this wonderful new policy will be popular among Jews, African-Americans, Asians, the Irish, and various other groups. ---[[User:Decius|Lord Marshal]] 02:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
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Well for what it matters, this is what the world actually thought on the Slavo-Macedonian genetics "research" [http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v415/n6868/full/415115b_fs.html]. This is really for the people who were naive enough to not notice how ludicrous this article is by definition. What I still don't see is how would it be insulting for Greeks to have an ancient Egyptian ancestry. Anyway, since Mister whatever-owski likes genetics, I'm allowing him to have a look at a real one [http://hgm2002.hgu.mrc.ac.uk/Abstracts/Publish/WorkshopPosters/WorkshopPoster11/hgm0533.htm]. Sleep tight... :) [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 03:28, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
:::For everyone who read the research I posted it is more than obvious that you are '''not talking about the same research'''. The research I posted '''does not mention anything''' about the genetic connection of the Jews and Palestinian.
:::And it is normal some scientist to react at research proving a connection about the Jews and Palestinian. But, that denial does not include any scientifical evidence. Only a denial by 3 other scientists. And, as you can read, the magazine withdraw the research because of "'''political reasons'''" as it is said on the web page. Not because of "'''scientifical reasons'''". So, there was no scientifical denial involved.
:::But, let me repeat again. The research I linked to does not say anything about the Palestinian-Jews conflict. And, your denial is exacly concerned with that issue. So, it is more than obvious that '''you linked to a completely different research'''. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:52, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:No, it is the same research. See below. ---[[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 03:07, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::It is not the same research. I got proves this time. See below. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 04:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Have you ever thought that the survey on Palenstinians might have been for practical reasons on a different PDF? Oh, so you haven't... You're lucky you have others to think for you. Take a look at this [http://kinoko.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~duraid/stolen_science/The_Origin_of_Palestinians_and_Their_Genetic_Relatedness_With_Other_Mediterranean_Populations.pdf].
::::I wonder what kind of pathetic excuse you'll come up with this time. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]]
:::I linked to the same research below. Anyone who sees the both researches can see are they the same, or completely different researches. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 20:14, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:So it was ''flawed'' genetic research that was ''skewed'' in a certain direction? What a surprise. [[User:Decius|Lord Marshal]] 03:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC) (I've seen this happen in wide genetic studies many times, not just this one, as I've noted)
:::Sorry to dissapoint you. It is not the same research. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:52, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::Actually a person of fundamental historical knowledge doesn't have to seek scientific judgement in order to understand that this article is another racist joke. I've had the article in PDF for a year now (willing to distribute it) and it only makes me feel sorry about how desperate some extremists can get. Half of the articles members have Slavic names (-owski, -ov, etc) and although it is somehow published from a spanish university, the actual genetic research is done in the university of [[Skopje]] (yes, it's actually that neutral). It begins with a brief historical introcution which should be a copy-paste from makedonija.org and proceeds with the procto-biology thingie. The article claims that at some undocumented point of Greek history in which the Minoan civilization was still powerful (3rd millenium BC), a huge wave of Egyptians might have crossed into Greece. Based on the assumptions that the ancient Ethiopians are cousins of the ancient Egyptians, this theory is generalised into "Modern Greeks have African genes". From what I've said the author's ignorance basically states that Modern Greek history starts during the [[Minoan]] civilization. The propaganda of the article reveals the author's beliefs are that a fictional non-white (in this case black) ancestry is something degrading to a European nation (the only thing that's missing is the word [[nigger]]). Basically none of it makes sense and it's comico-tragically stupid, so don't ask for details, I can give out the article to anyone who wants to witness 18th century-style nationalist despair existing in modern times. What also makes me feel sorry is that the editor's of a supposedly neutral encyclopedia don't have the basic knowledge that allows a scholar to smell a fraud, even when it's as obvious as this one. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 00:03, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::::That is not truth, even funny. Firstable, '''just 3 of 10''' scientist involved are with Macedonian origin.
::::Another thing. The research is done in Spain and USA. The university in Skopje does not have enought equipment and facilities for HLA genes researches. Actually, the university here is hardly doing any researches at all.
::::So, please stop claiming senceless things and check your information before you post them here. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:52, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:No, it is the same research. See below. ---[[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 03:07, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::It is not the same research. I got proves this time. See below. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 04:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::So much for your 'proves' [http://kinoko.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~duraid/stolen_science/The_Origin_of_Palestinians_and_Their_Genetic_Relatedness_With_Other_Mediterranean_Populations.pdf]. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 11:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::We know that the university of Skopje lacks the facilities to perform such a research, hence the fabrication of results. If the university of Skopje has nothing to do with the reasearch, then why the hell is it mentioned in the PDF? Or do you want me to quote it for you?
*''2Tissue Typing laboratory.
Institute of Blood
Transfusion, Skopje.
Republic of Macedonia
*The contribution by A.
Arnaiz-Villena and K.
Dimitroski is equal and the
order of authorship is
arbitrary''
Oh I know, that must be another conspiracy of those Sub-Saharan Greeks. I just feel sorry for the Spanish people whose names were dragged into this. :/ [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 11:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Miskin, everything you posted here is your assumption, nothing more. Anyone who wants to see the full text of the research, can get it here: http://www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid=ti.2001.pdf.
:::Every single claim in the research is supported by scientifical reason, including evidence. And, it was never been '''scientificaly''' denied. Only politicaly, as Miskin is doing now.
:::One more important thing. I read this research in January or February 2005th. If someone wanted to use it in political and nationalistic claims, why they haven't done it in 4 years, since the research appeared?
:::So, every claim for Macedonian nationalistic connection with this research is absurd, because no one of us (Macedonians) wanted to include it in the Macedonia page here on Wikipedia. But, including it in the page for the nowdays Macedonians ([[Macedonian Slavs]]) should be discussed.
:::And, Dacius, how do you want me to stop talking about the research when I read stupidities like this posted by Miskin? [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:52, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
So let's have a look at the authors of the article which concerns the Palenstinians [http://kinoko.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~duraid/stolen_science/The_Origin_of_Palestinians_and_Their_Genetic_Relatedness_With_Other_Mediterranean_Populations.pdf]:
*''Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, Nagah Elaiwa, Carlos Silvera,
Ahmed Rostom, Juan Moscoso,
Eduardo Gómez-Casado, Luis Allende, Pilar Varela,
and Jorge Martínez-Laso''
Hmm, no Skopjan names this time, how strange. :/ I suppose mr Dimitroski had been very picky on the topics of his research, Har, Har, Har! :D [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 11:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::And for those who were too lazy to read the academic opinion:
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...The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.
...We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.''' Having said this, I think everyone has got an idea about how seriously can editors like FlavrSavr and sterbinski be taken. This entire section should be removed from the discussio page, not simply because it's extremely rediculous and disgraceful for the encyclopedia, but also because it includes [[racism|racial discrimination]] based on the colour of people's skin. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 00:03, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Interesting, but the publications you are talking about was withdrawn because of "political" reasons (as you can read on the same web site).
::::And let me repeat that the research that we are talking about does not concern Japanese, Jews, Palestinians etc. You are talking about a '''completely different research''', Miskin.
::::The only one that can not be taken serious is you, Miskin, because of trying to use a denial to a completely different research than the one we are taking about here. And, the denial that you linked to '''does not include''' any scientifical denial. Actually, that denial is completely the same as yours, wrote by someone that didn't like the results and '''without''' any scientifical evidence.
::::And let me repeat again... The denial is for a completely different research. Sorry to disapoint you.
::::And, if you ever again try to introduce me as nationalist using unsuported claims and links to denials of wrong researches, I will repost that to the neutral administrators, so they will be able to judge about your neutrality. They already know that you are forcing your POV by outnumbering us, but it won't work this time. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:52, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Only for political reasons? Can you even read? The "research" has basically contradicted every single science that is known to mankind! :D And besides, this rejection is not just POV judgement passed by "Nature", it's an official document compiled by some of the world's leading universities (mentioned). It can be found in many places all over the internet, "Nature" is only one of them. You honestly make me laugh Sterbinski. Such desperation and denial is rare in the 21st century. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 11:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
'''Decius''', if you want us to stop taking about this research, tell to the Greek nationalist on this page to stop making unsoported denials and nationalistic conclusions from the research. As I said, the idea behind introducing this research was not to deny anything Greek... I just wanted to introduce evidence that we (nowdays Macedonians) have very mixed origin, not just Slavic. As you can see from my posts, I '''never''' claimed that this research proves any origin we have from the Antient Macedonians. Even without the research, I am sure that we have conection with them, same as several nations on the Balkany. Also, I never claimed that Macedonia has exclusive right over the history and name of the region Macedonia. So, what is that that you call nationalistic in me? [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:52, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:I heard those greasy Greeks smell bad. Is that true? [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 11:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
And, again, let me repeat... I do not think that we should put several genetic researches on the Macedonia page because of a simple reason: the genetic researches (including about the HLA genes) are not advanced enought to prove or deny some historical point of view. For now we can say that only thing that these researches prove is that the modern nations are not "clear" nations and that the people from the area were mixing between themselves.
On the other hand, I think that we should include a sentence saying something like "the genetical researches proved that the modern population of the region Macedonia, is with mixed genetical structure and the origin of the modern nations in the region can not be tightly connected to any ethnicities that lived in the area in the past". This only says the same that we already agreed about: the modern nations are not directly connected with the ethnicities that lived in the past on the same teritory, including the region of Macedonia. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 03:02, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:Isterbinski, you are mistaken. The Nature report clearly mentions the name '''Antonio Arnaiz-Villena''', the same name mentioned in the Slavo-Macedonian report. The Nature report also discusses the Greek-Saharan claim, and rejects it. '''It is the same research being discussed'''. Do not be a '''nationalist''' and do not be an '''idiot''', I. Sterbinski. [[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 03:05, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::Do you really beleive that this famous scientist has only one research?
::I made an intensive search and it is clear that the research that you are talking about is concerned with the Palestinians and their origin. That is the survey that is contraversial. Here is a link to it:
::http://kinoko.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~duraid/stolen_science/The_Origin_of_Palestinians_and_Their_Genetic_Relatedness_With_Other_Mediterranean_Populations.pdf
::I found many links that explain the reason why it was contraversial, but they all claim the same: '''the survey is opposed because of political reasons'''. Only '''politics'''. Here are some links for you, so you can read by yourself:
::www.tufts.edu/~skrimsky/PDF/nature_genetics.PDF
::http://www.uscrusade.com/forum/config.pl/noframes/read/1377
::http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2003%20Opinion%20Editorials/September/19%20o/Journal%20axes%20gene%20research%20on%20Jews%20and%20Palestinians%20Robin%20McKie.htm
::http://www.survivreausida.net/a4990
::You can find many, many more using google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22Antonio+Arnaiz+Villena%22+palestinian
::All of them say clearly that the text was withdrawn because of '''political reasons'''.
::On the other hand, the survey I gave you is concerned with the origin of the nowdays Macedonians and Greeks. It has nothing to do with the other survey. Here is a link:
http://www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid=ti.2001.pdf
::Both researches gave the same conclutions about the origin of the today Greeks, so that is why it is mentioned in the link Miskin posted. You can all read the both researches (you have links above) and see by your self.
::BTW, Antonio Arnaiz Villena is extremely respected and popular scientist and he was never scientifically denied. All the denials come from people who are motivated by political reasons and who don't like the results of his researches. To be honest, if his research showed that I am 100% Slavic, I wouldn't like that result. So, it is sensitive issue. As I said before, the HLA genes researches are expected to change the history, but that does not mean that people will accept that easyly. '''According to me, the paper can lie, but noone can change our blood and genes. They have more information than any historical book written before'''.
::Decius, I am little disapointed by your support to this denial, especially because of using terms as "idiot" when you are actually thge one who is mistaken. But, I won't call you "idiot". Respect to you.
:To be specific, I was warning you to not be an Idiot. You are still mistaken here, however, not me. And the title Idiot also gravitates to you because you accepted the crap on that site that compared Thracian and illyrian names to Slavic words as "proof" about Macedonian Slavs having words from the ancient Macedonians. Sorry, but I and many others have lost "respect" for Mr. '''Sterbinski''' (who is also a [[liar]]). ---[[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 05:09, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Many other Greeks? I don't need your respect, you never gave respect to anyone that does not agree with your nationalism. Probably even the Human Rights Watch are idiots when criticising Greece for the treatments they have towards the Macedonian minority in Greece.
:::Cry as much as you want, but I gave you the proofs, so now I will take some rest.
:::And, by the way, why you keep using different names, Decius? You are afraid that someone will see that it is the same person? Or, maybe you want the people to beleive that many share your opinion?
:::BTW, If you think that there are no Macedonian words with antique Macedonian origin, you are mistaken. There are neutral authors that wrote about this issue. I sugest you to read something more than the books in the local library in back in Greece. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 05:26, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:Did I say "Greeks"? I said '''many''' others, and this means people from any nation (including [[Bulgaria]], [[United States]], [[Canada]], etc.) not just [[Greece]]. [[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 05:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::The only people that felt threatened by this survey were the users from Greek nationality. I just don't understand why.
:::The ones who lost respect for i_sterbinski, can talk for themselves, in private, so we can solve our issue. I don't need a respect from people like you. My work in the field of Human rights for 20 years helped many people whose Human rights were threatened or taken away. They have their complete respect for me. My co-workers have respect for me, people from several different nations (including Bulgarians, Greeks, Americans, Canadians etc.), people who work in the same area for years. Your respect does not worth more than any of theirs.
:::Probably you are just some 20 + something year old (maximum) kid who thinks that he saw the world after reading few books from the library. You still have a lot to learn. But, after this, I certainly doubt that you will ever get real respect from anyone out of your family.
::I hope that now you will see that I am not beeing nationalist. I am just trying to get the truth about my identity and stop everyone who wants to deny it.
::'''Now it is more than sure that we are not talking about the same research'''. And anyone who decides to post links, please make sure that you have the right link and that the content of that link is exacly what you need. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 04:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:Don't waste your time, Sterbinski. If we need to, we can email the editors of '''Nature''' itself, or the geneticists in question. In the meanwhile, try not to blatantly lie again. [[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 04:59, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::E-mail them, feel free to do it. They alone wrote on the page where the research used to be that:"Genetics paper erased from journal over '''political''' content". Here is a link:
::http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaCitation.taf?id=N1&jtl=NATURE&cd_year=2001&vid=414&ppf=382
::You can get the same by first getting on the page where Miskin linked us (the so called denial) and latter press on the link of the research at the beggining of the (do called) denial.
::And, once again. I gave you links to both researches and comments about the removal of the first research, that one that Miskin linked. So you can see alone.
::So, you can colclude by your self... '''the denial is about a different research'''. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 05:11, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:Your latest link does not show what you think it does. You are clutching at straws. [[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 05:18, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::You can get to that page through your so called denial. It says clearly: "'''because of political content'''". But, even that is not important, because simply: '''We are talking about different researches'''.[[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 05:26, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:Keep telling yourself that Sterbinski. Write it on a little piece of paper and staple it to your shirtpocket. [[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 05:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::This kind of comments I hear everyday, from my children when they fight who owns some toy ("If it is yours, write it in a paper and stick it on your head").
:::You just proved that you do not deserve any respect. Including from your fellow Greek, my co-worker Christos, right here next to me. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 06:22, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:Well, excuse me for trying to make clear that what you are offering as a "scientific paper" has in fact been rejected by the scientific community. For a person claiming he works for "Human rights", you seem to be quite anti-Greek and anti-Bulgarian. [[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 06:32, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Now it is obvious that you haven't check any of the links I posted here. They clearly show that you are mistaken. Anyone neutral would do that, so I don't care that you didn't. Refusing to educate yourself will only harm you. Not me.
:::I will sugest you to stop acusing me for beeing anti-Greek or anti-Bulgarian. In this moment I have both, Greek and Bulgarian person with me in the office and I am working with them for many years. They read every comment I posted here, because we work on this project together (as representors of all 3 nations concerned).
:::On the other hand, I have Greek origin too, my grandmother from my father's side is half Greek (her name was Elefteritsa). So, beeing anti-Greek would be same as beeing against myself.
:::And, by the way, the last case I was working on was about a Bulgarian person who was centenced to 7 days in jail because of having the Bulgarian flag open in his own home, in Tripoli, Lybia. By The Way, we won, so he will get a compensation from the goverment.
:::Life has no limits, kid. Only limits are in your mind. Bulgarian, Greek or Macedonian, everyone is same for me. Only thing that matters is to have an open heart and free mind... something that you (as far as I could see) really lack. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 06:49, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:Isterbinski, a '''kid''' is one who mass deletes the entire page, as you just did using an unlogged-in ISP. [[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 06:53, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::I am using the IP address 62.162.198.123. The page was vandalized by IP address 65.48.193.80. The administrators can check was I using that IP. Stop making unsuported acusations. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 06:58, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:You're right. It was probably that [[Martian]] sitting on your shoulder. [[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 07:01, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::Are you trying to be funny? Because you are not. You are just making and ass of yourself. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 07:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:Isterbinski, you made an ass out of your self when you first added false claims into the text (see below). ---[[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 07:10, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Are they false or not, you are the last person who can judge them. With this last couple of posts that you added today, even my respected friend Christos lost his hope in you. From moderate Greek patriot, you sudenly turned into hidden nationalist (his words, I swear in his friendship). [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 07:16, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:I'm still moderate Isterbinski, but I don't know about you. I do not say that Wikipedia '''must''' call your people [[Macedonian Slavs]]. That is up to others to decide. On the other hand, you suddenly turned from a semi-reasonable person (on the points we were discussing at least) into someone who is in denial and insists on claiming that a rejected genetic paper is still accepted. But enough about that paper for today, that will be detailed later. I do not see an actual reasonable person like [[User:FlavrSavr]] still defending that paper in absence of proof that it is considered valid. [[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 07:25, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::If you want to deny something, first read it. I left enought proves and links here, so anyone can judge by himself.
:::Of course I will support the research, because no one here gave me a reason not to. You tried to deny it, but with false information, linking to a completely different research which is dedicated to the Palestinian origin.
:::Do you really expected me to suport Decius over a world famous scientist with his publicated and scientificaly undenied research?
:::I am sure that FlavrSavr supports the research too (the research that I linked to, not the one that you tryed to deny without any proofs), but he is obviously too busy to waste time on educating people like you. And I am sure that every neutral administrators who is interested about the issue will see how you wanted to trick the people here.
:::Look, I am slowly ending my report on this day. And because I don't see anything worthed to mention that you added today, I will spend some more time on the other cases I am working on. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 07:37, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:Pending actual verification, the report (that you support) is not scientifically accepted, plain fact. You can claim that it is, but not in a Wiki article. ---[[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 07:47, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::With you saying that it is not scientifically suported, nothing will change. The people who are interested will search for it and see by themselves is it or it is not suported. Internet is full of informations about it.
:::If you really want to know '''how popular is Mr. Arnaiz Villena''', please visit this link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Search&term=%22Arnaiz%2DVillena+A%22%5BAuthor%5D. It gives (more less) every research he was a part of. '''More than 200'''. This is taken from the website of the National Center for Biotechnology Information, based in USA which represents a national resource for molecular biology information in the USA.
:::Instead of wasting your time on kid responces, spend some time searching the web and reading something useful. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 08:11, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:Quite interesting. Those papers of his (which we are discussing, not whatever else he submitted) were dismissed, not just disputed, that's how ''excellent'' they were. ---[[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 08:18, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::That is just your words. Put here any link which says any of the research of this guy was denied scientifically. He has more than 200 papers which he is author of and which are accepted in USA. And, the "mastermind" Decius found a proof that his theories are fake. So, if you did, can you please share it with us?
If anyone can submit his work in the NCBI of USA, why they do not have any of your works, Decius? [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 08:57, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:You do seem to be in denial, and it is almost shocking (but not quite). Read that link from Nature again, and the names appended to it. His paper was even dropped from the Journal in which it was published (by the way, that's what that link is talking about, if you haven't noticed, not that the paper against it was dropped from ''Nature'', as you mistakenly claim). Villena's conclusions will remain in the fringe of genetics, because there is no indication that the general community of geneticists agrees with him. ---[[User:Decius|Tony Starks]] 09:01, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Villena was a guest writter for that issue. His claims were having certain political content (concerning Jews and Palestinians, not Greeks and Macedonians), so that is why that was withdrawn. Even the newspaper clearly states that the withdraw was because of '''political''' content. All that can be found on the links that I posted up, so let the people see by themselves.
:::On the other hand, that is not important for this issue, because completely other research was withdrawn. '''It is not the same research'''.
:::Concerning Villena's researches, he has more than 200 (there is also a link about this somewhere above). Do you really beleive that your words are more powerful than his scientifical work?
::Any neutral administrator will see the truth. So, if you are right, they will see that. So, let's stop this idiotic corespondence and use our time for something else. This issue has enought text and links for anyone to be able to judge by himself. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 19:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::This is getting monotonous. When will someone block the troll so that we can proceed with more serious edits? [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 11:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::When you grow up and understand that the world might not be the same as your wishes. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 19:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
==General fallacies of Isterbinski's edits==
Line 952 ⟶ 1,106:
::Basil the Bulgar-Slayer... someone of the scolars should have explained you the difference between Bulgar and Bulgarian.
::::There was no difference between Bulgar and Bulgarian until the mid-20th century, it was actually Bulgar which was mostly used in English. Now, for the sake of convenience, Bulgar is used for the old Bulgars (until the 8th cent.) and Bulgarians for the fusion of Bulgars and Slavs after that. The Bulgar-Slayer is just a preserved older form, although it is inexact. [[User:VMORO|VMORO]] 07:54, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
::::::That only proves how '''inacurate''' the old historians can be. And, as I read today, "the Bulgar-Slayer" nickname of Basil was first time mentioned many years before the Belasitsa battle. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 03:09, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::Too bad that this is just business for you. Why wouldn't it be? You don't lose anything, you can only win.
::Why instead we don't talk about the Bulgarian power, conections and support they had around the world? Winners make the history. And we were certainly not winners in all this. We ended up with half of our history beeing claimed as someone elses.
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Go and dig in Istanbul, the Vatican and wherever you want. When you find something worthy of consideration, come and talk about it. Until then, don't occupy us with wish-wash talk. The Wikipedia has a clear policy that POV opinions should be included when there is a discussion/debate about something and I have nothing against that - but they are included as fringe opinions. Go and check out the [[Mars]] article, it explicitly mentions a scholar who thinks that Mars is populated by an extraterrestrial race and it also explicitly mentions what reviews and opinions his theory has among the rest of the scholarly world. The Macedonian POV - which is not supported by documental evidence - can certainly be added, but only as the extraterrestrial race living on Mars. This is the real Wikipedia, this is the real NPOV, the rest is just raving in your sleep. [[User:VMORO|VMORO]]13:43, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
::That is the problem, because it is real Wikipedia and anyone can edit it, including nationalistic minds as your. And you can deny as much as you want, try to assimilate us till the end of the world. But '''I am here, I am Macedonian and nothing can change that'''.
::And don't tell me that Bulgaria has more right over Samuil (or any other historian person you tried to present as yours) and his people, because they were based in Ohrid, which is in Republic of Macedonia. So, the only way you can prove that you are more connected to Samuil than I am is if you find me a prove that whole population of Ohrid decided one day to move in Bulgaria and left Ohrid empty, without any population. Or if you take Samuils DNA sample and find a strong conection between his DNA and DNA of some Bulgarian.
::Until then, you can preach as much as you want. No matter when the Macedonian nation formed as separate nation (before Crist, Midle Ages, 18th, 19th or 20th century), it was not a decision taken by someone. It was a feeling that grew in us, something that noone can deny. Macedonian nation is reality today and only a fool can deny that. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 03:20, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::Concerning the Vatican libraries... if you didn't know, they are closed for everyone outside the Vatican leaders. Only the popes and high members of the Masones are alowed to get in there. +
::Same happens to the Turkish documents from the Ottoman period, biggest parts of them are still not made public. +
::When the Russian documents are concerned, the publications of them are strictly controled by the cominist party till the breakup of the Soviet Union, until when Russia was close allies with Bulgaria, in the "fight" against Tito and his Yugoslavia. Until now, those "protected" documents are still not made public, but it is confirmed by Boris Yelcin that they exist. He did not confirm what is written in them, but I am sure we will see that in the following decade. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 03:26, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
==Roman Imperial Provinces, 120 AD==
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::::Got more of your Spartan wisdoms, or will you finally admit that the your main argument for the "Macedonian Slavs" designation is that you don't like them? --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 16:11, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::Take it up with the administrators of the German Wikipedia. They are the ones who appear to enforce the distinction rather studiously: [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makedonien], [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makedonien_%28griechische_Provinz%29], [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazedonien]. You claim that ''Makedonien'' and ''Mazedonien'' are interchangeable; ''au contraire'', our German colleagues write that ''Mazedonien'' is "seltener auch in etymologischer Schreibung ''Makedonien''". ''Seltener'' doesn't sound quite ''egal'' to me.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 06:07, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::They are saying that ''Makedonien'' is used less frequently when referring to the Republic of Macedonia. Obviously they have established a consensus that makes a ''formal'' difference between the Republic and the wider region (geographically and historically). You can see that even in the same articles bearing the name Mazedonien, Makedonien is often used: "einer makedonischen Nationenbildung
::::::Outside the world of the German Wikipedia, Makedonien and Mazedonien have basically the same meaning, and are not at all "essentially different". There is a small page specifically treating the problem here - [http://www.goethe.de/ins/cs/bel/pro/wolf/makedonien.htm], the one stating that ::::::''"Der Name Makedonien und/oder Mazedonien ist politisch neutral/egal''". As far as I can ::::::understand, the difference is between Cyrillic/Greek/Slavic pronunciation and the Latin ::::::pronunciation. There are numerous sites that are using the terms simultaneosly - [http://www.marcelhermann.de/online-konti-europa/mazedonien.htm], [http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/staaten/mazedonien.html], [http://www.osteuropa-infoseite.de/mazedonien.htm], [http://www.fifoost.org/mazedonien/index.php], [http://mitglied.lycos.de/chsiemer/wappen/europa/mazedonien.htm], [http://www.helles-koepfchen.de/Beitrag.asp?ID=258], [http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~tmuehle/europa/europa/eur_mk.htm], [http://www.osteuropa.ch/fyrom/mk_1.htm]. Also, see the German version of Encarta [http://de.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761555941/Ehemalige_Jugoslawische_Republik_Makedonien.html]-
::::::"''Ehemalige Jugoslawische Republik Makedonien, auch Mazedonien''". ''Essential'' difference?
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[[Image:
[[Image:Sax.jpg|thumb|right|1878]]
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[[Image:
[[Image:Distribution of Races on the Balkans in 1923.jpg|thumb|right|1923]]
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Yes, Istirbinski, the only thing is that on the website where I am taking them from, there are around 20 more of them - all by neutral publishers - and all of them portray the Slavic population of Macedonia as Bulgarian. And this is only a fraction of the maps produced until the 1920s which have all (with minor exceptions) again depicted the Slavic population of Macedonia as Bulgarian. The ones which you are quoting use "Macedonian Slavs" (=the Slavs inhabiting Macedonia) because they don't wanna take a stand as to whether these "Macedonian Slavs" (a name which is not meant to be the name of a people or an ethnicity but just a geographical denomination) were Bulgarians or Serbs. In the same way, for example, [http://knigite.abv.bg/en/hb/index.html Brailsford], uses initially the name Macedonian Slavs and later says that they are Bulgarians ("The Slavs of Ochrida are as definitely Bulgarians as the Slavs of Pleven"). The maps you are quoting are from [http://vmro.150m.com/en/carnegie/ Carnegie Report of the International Commission To Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars]. Assimilation is a word which you don't know the meaning of '''at all'''. All the contemporary writers say that the vast majority of the Macedonian Slavs regarded themselves as ethnic Bulgarians (see [http://www.peacelink.nu/Boker/Durham/Durham.html Durham] or [[http://knigite.abv.bg/en/hb/index.html Brailsford]). And even Krastyu Misirkov says in "On the Macedonian matters" that the '''Macedonian Slavs call themselves Bulgarians'''. In his later works, however, he not only says that the '''Macedonian Slavs are Bulgarians''' but also that the '''Macedonian Slavs are better Bulgarians than the rest of the Bulgarians'''. Go and educate yourself and don't repeat Macedonian ideological propagandism which has nothing to do with real life events. [[User:VMORO|VMORO]]13:32, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
::We already discussed the issue of Macedonians proclaiming as Bulgarians. I beleive in the version that they were doing this regarding Bulgarian to be same as Slavic and because they wanted to obbey the powerful Greek and Serbian assimilation politics of that time and because of the fact that the Bulgarians were pretending that they are supporthing the Macedonian. I did not read this theory, I was introduced to it by my grandfather who was born in the beggining of the 1920s (he don't know the exact year) and who was raised as a Macedonian by his parrents. And that was far before Tito.
::VMORO, you never answered... if you theory is truth, how will you explain 100.000s of Macedonians who now live in Canada, USA and Australia and who never were in Republic of Macedonia when it was a part of Tito's Yugoslavia? Those Macedonians who lived in Greece and Bulgaria until they had to move over the ocean. What about those who live in Bulgaria and Greece... how do they feel Macedonian, when they were never influenced by Tito?
::And you never explained why the Macedonians in Bulgaria were not allowed to registered a political party till 2 years ago?
::And, how they managed to keep beeing Macedonian, aldough surounded by people like you, supporting the Bulgarian assimilation? [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 03:56, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::It seems that the only ''real'' assimilation that took place on a massive scale was that which turned erstwhile Bulgarians into "Macedonians" within the last century.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 13:46, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Read the above post that I gave to VMORO and stop playing dumb. You are alone aware that there are 1000s of nowdays Macedonians that still live in Greece and that were never influenced by Tito or anyone like him. Actually, they were constantly denied by Greece (even today) and runned away from their homes. How did they managed to keep their Macedonian identity? Did you force them to become Macedonians? Because, as far as I remember, you did exacly the oposite, but they could not just forget their Macedonian roots. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]]
:To FlavrSavr who gets angry with me when I use the word "Macedonian Slavs" - I am just quoting the authors (Misirkov also uses "Macedonian Slavs" and '''NOT''' Macedonians). These beginning-of-the 20th century Macedonian Slavs have nothing to do with the modern Macedonians in terms of ethnic affiliations. [[User:VMORO|VMORO]]13:32, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
:::Misirkov makes clear in "Za Makedonckite raboti" that we are different ethnicities. Don't play dumb.
:::And of course he was making clear that we have Slavic origin, as an answer to the Greek assimilations, in order to show that the Macedonians don't have Greek origin. Don't forget that he was living in the centre of the Greek propaganda in Macedonia. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 03:56, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
VMORO, I have asked you a simple question above, will you please answer it?
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:::::If I am wrong, can someone please explain me? [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 00:32, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::Yes, it is so "scientific" that in the opening paragraphs of a "genetics" study we read: "Herodotus wrote that ‘‘Macedonians’’ were ‘‘Dorians’’ and were never admitted to the Greek community. They did not speak Greek but another language presently unknown and of which only proper names remain..." See [[Dorian]] and [[ancient Macedonian language]] if you don't already know what is woefully wrong with this sentence. Nonetheless, it ''does'' have its light-hearted moments, like its hilarious conclusion that "the cultural, historical, and genetic identity of Macedonians is established according to our results". I wonder if the Spaniards wrote ''that'' line too! :D Poor-quality science, perhaps, but ''great'' comedy. Well done.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 06:07, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
:::If you ask me, there is no issue between Greece and Macedonia about the antique Macedonians. We both have some origin from them, but '''non''' of us can have a right for exclusive rights over the history of the region of Macedonia.
:::And, any historian you would ask will comfirm you that the modern nations were formed after the 14th century. So, all the issue we have has no sence, especially because we (nowdays Macedonians) do not have any claims for the Greek teritory which you decided (in the 1960s and 70s) to call "Macedonia". [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 03:56, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Theathenae, do you have ''any'' useful arguments to add to this discussion? --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 22:17, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
:"Hello, I'm not planning to engage further in this debate until the participants of this discussion start referring to the name of the ethnic group - that is, Macedonians." So why are you still here?--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 08:29, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
:::To stop your assimilation attempts. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 03:56, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
==Truth hurts...==
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The Fallmerayer Thesis in the Light of Genetic Evidence
Jacob Fallmerayer stirred quite a controversy in the 19th century by proposing that the Hellenic nation had perished in the Middle Ages by admixture with Slavs and Albanians.
We are now in a position, through genetic evidence to evaluate this thesis, at least with respect to the question of Slavic settlements.
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"Our results indicate that this mutation is particularly common in Czech, Russian, Belorussian, Austrian, German, Polish, Ukrainian, Slovenian, and Slovak patients. It is the second most common CF mutation to be identified in Central and Eastern European CF patients. By contrast, it was only sporadically detected in Western Europe and was absent in Bulgarian, Croatian, Romanian and Serbian CF patients. It was not found in diverse other populations of non-Slavic origin. The geographic distribution of the mutation is similar to the spread of Slavic populations during the first millenium."
------------------------------------------------------
Y Chromosomes
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[11] Cruciani et al. (2004) Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa. Am J Hum Genet (to appear)
[12] Al-Zahery et al. (2003) Y-chromosome and mtDNA polymorphisms in Iraq, a crossroad of the early human dispersal and of post-Neolithic migrations Mol Phyl Evol 28:458-472
'''The alleged "Sub-Saharan" theory that FYROMian "scholars" (damn it, am I funny or what) have manipulated to prove their point'''
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It is sometimes argued that the Greeks absorbed large numbers of Negro slaves or immigrants. There is no evidence of such an event in Greek mtDNA. If it ever took place, it was so limited in scope that not a single sequence in a total of 125 could be found.
== "Elefteritsa" ==
[[User:Isterbinski]], speaking of your grandmother and "assimilation" - by the way, her unassimilated Greek name would actually be ''Eleftheritsa'', with a ''th'' - would you care to explain to us whatever happened to the once thriving Greek community in what is now the FYROM? Monastiri (modern-day [[Bitola]]) for example was once a major centre of Greek culture and learning, but the Greeks have since been forcibly assimilated into the dominant "Macedonian" national(ist) project. There is no free expression of Greek identity, and the Greeks are not even included in the census. Where did they disappear to? Seeing as you work for "human rights", as you say, you should be more concerned with the situation facing minorities within your ''own'' country, should you not?--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 08:02, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::This is even funny and senceless to read. Firstable,my Greek origin was from my grand-grand mother and I never met her personally, because she died when she was about 55 years old. My grand-grand father, who was married with her runned away from Greece because their house was burned by the Greek hunta and their were shoot at.
:::After that they moved in Macedonia (the town of Bitola). No one changed her name. Elefteritsa (or any version of it) is not a Macedonian name. If they wanted to change her name, it would be something like Marica, or maybe Letka. Those are the closest Macedonian names to Eleftheritsa. If someone wanted to assimilate her, they would give her some of those names. If you write Eleftheritsa on Macedonian (with h in the name), it is hard to read it. Anyone who knows any Macedonian can confirm what you are saying is completely senceless.
:::No one ever tried to assimilate the Greeks in Macedonia. My wife has a employee in her school of languages of Greek nationality, who works there as teacher of new Greek language. She is about 30 and born in Macedonia. But, she never was anything else than Greek (mother and father both Greeks). Her surname stayed Cilimingas and her nationality Greek.
:::Greeks are included in the census. Everyone is. In the Macedonian census, you write your nationality by yourself. You are free to write whatever you want, you do not have options that you must choose from. Inform yourself before claiming senceless things.
:::Don't you preach about minorities in Macedonia. With the new constitution, every minority in Macedonia can use his own language even in the national parlament.
:::I am not some free lance human rights worker. I work for one of the biggest organizations in the world. And if you want, I can post you here more than 70 reports about breaking of Human rights in Greece just in the last 4 months. There is no Human rights organization which did not criticise Greece. From all the countries in Europe, you are in top 3 with most breakings of Human Rights.
:::On the other hand, you have changed every single name that sounded Macedonian. My co-worker Christos (again, from Greek nationality, living in Macedonia) has full drawer of examples like that. And he laughted out loud when he read this post of yours.
:::In this moment there are about 3000 Greeks in Macedonia, but 2000 of them are here because of work (there are many Greek firms in Macedonia). It is interesting to say that '''we do not have any''' report of breaking human rights in Macedonian from a person with Greek nationality in the last 11 years. The Greek firms here are even allowed to have the Greek flag in front of their offices. Do you know what would happen to anyone who tries to put the Macedonian flag anywhere in Greece? [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 08:47, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:The '''Macedonian''' flag ([[Vergina Sun]]) flies proudly throughout Greece. As for foreign firms flying their national flags, there has never been an impediment to this. As soon as firms from the FYROM start investing in Greece rather than the other way around, there will be no Greek objection to flying the Japanese naval ensign. When I refer to the Greeks in the FYROM, I am not talking about the recent arrivals who are there on business. I am talking about the ''indigenous'' Greek population that has been forcibly assimilated as ethnic "Macedonians". The ''official'' census figures [http://www.stat.gov.mk/pdf/kniga_13.pdf] recognise no Greek or Bulgarian ethnicity (what a joke), and the category ''Other'' amounts to a meagre 20,993 souls, just over 1% of the total population. Are we ''seriously'' supposed to believe that the ethnic Greeks, Bulgarians and all other ethnic groups ''combined'' amount to one per cent? Pull the other one, mate.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 12:05, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::There are only two facts about this issue:
:::::1)Macedonian census was not criticised by any Human Rights wach organization in the world.
:::::2) There is no Greek census that was not criticised by some Human Rights Watch organization. Just the organization that I am part of has criticised every census since 1950th.
:::::If you ever were in Macedonia, you would be sure that the human rights here, especially after 2003rd and the new constitution gives more rights for the monorities than most of the countries in European Union. This what you say here is completely hilarious.
:::::Anyone who is interested, can check this information online. [[User:62.162.195.235|62.162.195.235]] 18:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Yeah, yeah we know the story already, all your family and friends have personal experiences with the people you hate so you don't need to bring up any documented evidence. Your wife is Greek, your grandfather was killed by Greeks, your best friend is a working as a transvestite in Syggrou etc, etc. If you people don't break '''any''' human rights then what is this all about [http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsJun2004/newsbeat2jun.htm]? Desperate nation that kills innocent people in order to kiss american ass? Or more Greek lies? [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 12:37, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::My wife is mexican, not Greek. But, I would not have anything against even if she was Greek. For 20 years of working for human rights, you meet a lot of people and you help a lot of them. That brings you a lot of friends. And about my family... it is quite big. There were cases in the past of even more than 7 children in my family.
:::If you really want to know, my organization (including me) was the one who was loudest in this case asking for a trial for everyone who was a part of this incident. I will not talk further about what happened latter, because I don't have any clue or pictures from the scene. But I know that even the 'War Crimes Tribunal' in Hague droped the charges on thic case. I am not a lawyer or a judge, so I can not say anything about it.
:::For those who don't know, just to repeat that this incident happened in the middle of the war in Macedonia, so it is hard to prove any human right breaking in that situation. Aldough, we (as a Human Rights organization) supported those doubts of breaking the Human rights, we can not confirm were they terorist or ilegal imigrants. Only the court can confirm you that. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 18:35, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
== "Human Rights on the Balkan" ==
For anyone who wants to learn more about the human rights in greece, here is google's results on the issue: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%2Bhuman+%2Brights+%2Bgreece&btnG=Search
For anyone who wants to learn about the human rights of Macedonia, here is google's results on the issue:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%2Bhuman+%2Brights+%2Bmacedonia
For anyone who wants to learn about the human rights of Bulgaria, here is google's results on the issue:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%2Bhuman+%2Brights+%2Bbulgaria
For anyone who wants to learn about the human rights of Albania, here is google's results on the issue:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%2Bhuman+%2Brights+%2BAlbania&btnG=Search
For anyone who wants to learn about the human rights of Serbia, here is google's results on the issue:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%2Bhuman+%2Brights+%2BSerbia
For anyone who wants to learn about the human rights of Romania, here is google's results on the issue:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%2Bhuman+%2Brights+%2BRomania&btnG=Search
Compare by yourself. Every single country in the world has been criticised for violating human rights, but now you can compare by yourself and build an oppinion for the human rights in both countries. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 18:34, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
== And now for some REAL genetics research ==
You know I was wondering, since according to ''some people'' genetics are as important as to mentioned in the article, then why don't we all bring up everything we can? Mr Sterbinski brought something up but unfortunately it was proved to be a fraud. Now it's the turn of other people to put their cards on the table. What do you think of a research conducted by [[Oxford]] university [http://hgm2002.hgu.mrc.ac.uk/Abstracts/Publish/WorkshopPosters/WorkshopPoster11/hgm0533.htm]?
:::Cry as much as you want Miskin, but you haven't proof that the research I posted here is a fraud. You were talking to a completely different research and you tried to represent the link you posted here as denial of my research. Unfortunately for you, I found links of both researches and I found several other links that proof that even the research that you tried to deny (which is different than the research I posted) were pulled back because of '''political''' reasons. Even the Nature magazines admits that.
:::So, stop playing dumb and check the links I posted up here.[[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 17:59, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
''Pakistan lies in a region that has witnessed multiple invasions and migrations over the centuries. Alexander the Great invaded the Indian sub-continent in 327-325 B.C. and three northern Pakistani populations, the Burusho, the Kalash and the Pathan claim descent from Greek soldiers who were left behind in this region. The Burusho reside in the Hunza and Nagar valleys, which are located in the Karakorum Mountains and speak the language isolate Burushaski. The Kalash have been isolated for centuries in the Hindu Kush mountain ranges of northern Pakistan and speak Kalasha, an Indo-European language. The Pathan tribes inhabit the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan and the southern and eastern parts of neighboring Afghanistan. They speak Pushto, also an Indo-European language. To investigate the male-line genetic relationship between the extant Greek population (assuming that modern Greek are representative of Alexander's armies) and the three Pakistani ethnic groups, 16 binary unique event polymorphisms, and 16 multiallelic, short-tandem-repeat (STR) loci, mapping on the non-recombining portion of the human Y chromosome were typed in 910 individuals. The combination of the biallelic markers identified 7 stable Y chromosomal lineages in the Greek, Burusho and Pathan populations and 5 in the Kalash. Haplogroups 1, 2, 3 and 9 were present in all four populations. The M20 A to G transition (haplogroup 28) was found in all three Pakistani populations but was absent in the Greeks. This polymorphism probably originated in or near Pakistan as it has not been found at a significant frequency except in this area. Haplogroup 21 was frequent in the Greeks but in these Pakistani populations was found only in the Pathans. Based upon haplogroup frequencies, 65-88% Greek admixture was estimated for the Kalash, consistent with a Greek origin for a significant proportion of Kalash Y chomosomes. However, the Kalash lack haplogroup 21 chromosomes and appeared distinct from the Greeks based upon principal components analysis of haplogroup frequencies and weighted population pairwise FST values based on STR variation within Y Haplogroups. They clearly contain a substantial proportion of Pakistani Y chromosomes, illustrated by their high frequency of hg 28, and the true Greek contribution remains uncertain. Estimates of Greek Y admixture for the Pathans were about 10%, and for the Burusho were close to zero. Median-joining networks of STR haplotypes revealed considerable sub-structuring of Y variation within the Kalash and Burusho, and in particular the haplogroup 21 network showed that the Pathan chromosomes were closely related to the central Greek cluster. Thus a small Greek contribution to the Pathans seems likely, the contribution to the Kalash is unclear and no contribution to the Burusho could be detected.''
This research proves at least two things:
*Before the research: The academic society '''considers''' Greeks as the main ancestors of ancient Macedonians.
*After the research: The above consideration has been '''enforced''' on a scientific basis due to the results of the research.
Note that this research has a completely neutral character, irrelevant to Greeks or any politics whatsoever. Its purpose is to study the ancestry of the Kalash, Burusho and Pathans, 3 peoples of Northern Pakistan who are assumed to be the ancestors of ancient Macedonian colonists. Unless the Slavic crowd (FlavrSavr, Isterbinski) have some valid academic document which rejects its validity (similar to what rejected theirs), I don't see any reason to not mention it in the article. Remember, I'm only using your own logic. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 12:37, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::You obviously read only your own posts, Miskin. When will you finally learn the difference between the HLA genes and genes in general?
:::In the same time, I would point out that this is your own conclusion. I don't see the scientist from Oxford making any conclusions like yours. But the "mastermind" kid Miskin is more reliable than any scientist in the world, so we have to listen to him. Right? I don't know should I laught or cry at this nonsence, can not decide is it hilariously funny, or extremely sad because someone so young as you can be so closeminded and.
:::And, in this moment no serious scientist would say that there is not any connection between the antient Macedonians and nowdays Macedonians. There is connection between the Greeks and antient Macedonians too, no one denies that. But, it would be completely idiotic if anyone claims that the Greeks stayed completely clean nation, without any mixing.
:::The Balkany is very small area and many different nations and people with different origin live here. During the last 2500 years there was mixing between all of them. So, again, please stop playing dumb. People here can always read you. And with this aproach, I don't think you will get anyone listening to you.
:::Personally, I do not care what origin Greeks have. You can be anything you want to be. I just know that there is a proof that we are not just Slavic and that our Macedonian origin is quite mixed.
And if you have any mind that you still use, you would finally understand that the modern nations don't have direct conections to the antique people, no matter Macedonians or Greeks. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 17:59, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
== A simple question ==
If the modern "Macedonians" are the product of an admixture between ancient Macedonians and Slavs, as "Macedonian" nationalists claim, what is wrong with calling them [[Macedonian Slavs]]? Is that not what they are?--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 18:21, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::I will try to explain you, but let's try to keep it down, without any 'fights'. Me and you Theathenae can not solve this issue.
::Now I will explain you why it can not be acceptable for us.
::1)The name Macedonian Slavs is not what we are. We are mixure, which includes Slavs, but Slavic is not the only origin we have.
::2) Slavs got here 15 centuries ago. Any relevant scientist will confirm you that the modern nations are formed latter than the 14th century and they can not be connected directly with ethnicities that lived in the same area in the past.
::3) Macedonians is the only name we know, only name we have and the only name that we used. We identify only with that name. Using the name Macedonian Slavs is nonsence, because noone would write that his nationality is "Macedonian Slavs". They would say that their nationality is "Macedonian". So, what kind of nation "Macedonian Slav" is when noone identifies with it?
::4) Belonding to some nationality is a personal feeling. If I feel as Italian, it is my basic human right to be Italian. Maybe I won't have Italian nationality and passport, but I should be treated as Italian anywhere I go. So, if I feel Macedonian, it is my basic human right to be one. If I do not identify with the name Macedonian Slav, no one can force me to be one. That would be violation against the basic human rights. Wikipedia is in a funny situation now. It claims that there is nationality Macedonian Slavs, but there is no one who identifies himself as Macedonian Slav. On the other hand, Wikipedia does not include the nationality (Macedonians) which is identifier of 2,5 million people. I agree that there should be clear difference between the "modern Macedonians" and the "Antique Macedonians" (maybe even using these names), but it should not deny the name we have. Especially because that name is highly supported all over the world.
::Greece and the Greeks should understand that us beeing Macedonian can not be denial of their conection with the Antique Macedonians. Also, they have to understand that they can not have exclusivity ove the Macedonian name and history. But, we both (Greeks and Macedonians) have to understand that non of us has a right to claim direct conection to Alexander the Great and his people. The science does not allow that and denies any direct connection of modern nations with some ethnicities that lived in the antique time.
::Also, Greece should understand that Macedonia can not claim and ask for the Aegean part of Macedonia. That teritory is Greek and the population there nowdays is dominantly Greek. So, it is clear and simple: Aegean Macedonia's teritory is Greek teritory and it will stay that way.
::In the same time we should both understand that nationalistic politics and claims should be left in the past. Nationalists like the ones in Macedonia who wants the Aegean part of Macedonia back in Macedonia and like the ones in Greece who deny any Macedonian minority in Greece and their rights should be isolated.
::I hope I could help. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 18:59, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
:::I remain unconvinced.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 19:10, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Theathenae, I will write this comment, but please first read it till the end before making any conclusions.
::::This is not about convincing you and asking you a aproval for using the name Macedonians. That is simple reality. We don't know any other name that we identify with and that can not be changed. We simply have no other option. We changed our constitution, we changed our flag, but it is imposible to change our identity. That is not something that you or me can decide. That is something that was beeing shaped and developed for centuries.
::::I wrote this explanation because Ijust wanted to explain you that Republic of Macedonia and the modern Macedonians have '''nothing''' against Greece and we don't have any claims to teritories of Modern Greece, including the Aegean Macedonia.
::::Of course, no one is prepared to quit about the rights of the minority in Greece, but all those people are asking for is to have the same rights that any other country in the European Union gives to the minorities.
::::I will repeat again. In my opinion, the problem between Macedonia and Greece is not realistic. It is simple politics. As you can confirm, as far as I remember, we never were in war, or anything similar to it. Actually, we are 2 of the rare nations on the Balkany that never were fighting against each other (excluding the Balkan wars, but then the Macedonian people were not your real target).
::::All the problem is based on the fears of the Macedonians of the Greek politics towards the Macedonians from the time of the hunta on one side, and the fears of the Greeks of some hidden plans of Macedonia to ask for the Aegean part of Macedonia back. But, I am 100% sure that non of those fears are based on valid grounds. You know that 1/3 of the tourists in Greece are comming from Macedonia. I hope you had a chance to see that those people have nothing against you.
::::I give this problem 2 more years, maximum. Of course, all the problems will not be solved, but the main issue will be closed. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:16, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:The problem could easily be solved if Skopje dropped its intransigent stance and accepted the UN proposal as a basis for negotiations, as Greece has already done. At the moment, Skopje's insistence on using ''Macedonia'' without any qualifier ''is'' the problem. You yourself have admitted that nobody can monopolise the name, but that is exactly what Skopje has been doing for years. What you need to realise is that you are not ''the'' Macedonians; you are just one third of the total population of [[Macedonia]] as defined in modern times. ''Most'' Macedonians are Greeks, and their rights and interests must also be taken into consideration.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 07:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:::The UN proposal was supporting the Greek side. If we accepted the proposal, we would have to change our name, which was actually what Greece want. You missed to say that Macedonia already changed its constitution and made it in the way Greece wanted and plus we changed our national flag, which we see as our national symbol. We already made step back, but Greece used our good will to make even bigger presure.
:::Yes, I claim that no one can monopolize the Macedonia name. But, Macedonia is not doing that. No one asked from Greece to drop using the name Macedonia for a part of its teritory.
:::Actually, it is the other way around. Greece is actually the one that asks Macedonia to drop the use of its name. Something imposible, because that is the only identity we have.
:::A part of the antique Greek teritory is now a part of Turkey. What would you do if they asked you to change your name from Greece to "Former Ottoman Province of Greece"?
:::And one more thing. The Greeks that want to use the name Macedonia for themselves do not say that they are from Macedonian nationality. They claim their nationality is Greek. Actually, the only people who say that are from Macedonian nationality in Greece are the members of the Macedonian ([[Macedonian Slav]]) minority in Greece. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:48, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
== Caution:A genetic research ==
To all: I think I have explained my view on genetic researches and ethnicity quite clearly, ''4 days ago'' (Before Miskin was a part of this "genetic" debate), so for those who don't read my posts (and are putting words in my mouth), here it is again:
:Linking genes with national identities is dangerous. I knew about that HLA genes research all about it, but frankly, I don't believe it proves anything. That is why I have never used as it an argument. The involvement of the Macedonian crew in it, is ''indeed suspicious'' to me. ('''I, FlavrSavr actually said that, and I still mean it, though I don't believe their involvement is a proof that they were necessarilly politically motivated''') The one thing positive that HLA genetic research proved, is, in my opinion, that the national "purity" of modern nations is, and has always been, a ''myth''.
:Now, what is really dangerous in it, are indeed, the racist conclusions drawn from it "Oh, my nation is more pure than your Sub-saharan tribe". (So Theathenae, that is indeed a racist statement, but I'm still confused why you dislike our faces so much). Such genetic researches or sometimes quasiresearches are always followed by ''racist'' sentiments, although they might not be motivated by such sentiments. Just see what the site that VMORO has provided stand for: ''Essays on a new concept of racial relations that promotes the continued existence, independence and legitimate rights and interests of all races, providing a preservationist alternative to the racially destructive consequences of multiracialism''. '''Destructive consequences of multiracialism?!''' (I said that, as well)
:Of course, there is this new "ethical racism" (preservation of all races), that tries to avoid (in my opinion), the obvious link, between these guys and Hitler's ideas, but on the site, there are mostly concerns why the "Nordic race" is the one dissapearing. How "serious" these guys are, you can see from [http://www.racialcompact.com/partitionmap.html|this map for racial preservation of the US]. The website's list of "Estimated percentage genes of modern nations" is composed from god knows what sources. --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 15:37, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm again confirming that until the Genes or HLA Genes Research are fully or generally accepted in the scientific circles as relevant in describing historical events and migrations, I suggest that a giant '''CAUTION:A genetic research!''' sticker should be put on them, ''especially'' because they can cause serious distortions in the (post)modern concept of nationality, by putting purely ''racist, "nationality by blood"'' arguments into play. So, until I get some strong proofs of the contrary, I strongly believe that national/ethnic identity is a complex phenomena, that cannot be, explained by genes. --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 04:23, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:As a citizen of RofM, I wish you would comment on Sterbinski's bizarre claims that the research is "unquestioned" (To quote Sterbinski: "Put here any link which says any research of this guy was denied scientifically"---that can be found in the Nature link), and his continued denial to accept what the ''Nature'' report implies. His subsequent links do not show what he claims (or thinks) they show. Not addressing this can be seen as tolerating his claims, and that can be seen as an indirect way of supporting his claims and his viewpoint. ---[[User:Decius|Alex]] 04:36, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
::Alex, I'm writing several paragrhaps, It is possible because of a software mistake, to accidentally erase some of your posts. Also, please don't rush in, I have several other issues to add. --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 05:03, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
That, however, '''does not mean that we couldn't or shouldn't include those genetic researches''' in a Wikipedia article, given the fact the Wikipedia includes articles or parts of them regarding different beleifs or religions, that are not only just scientifically dismissed, but are also quite odd. The genetic issues are already added in the [[Palestinians]] ('''not Palestinian Arabs''') article. '''Our mission here is not to prove whether or not the same Genes or HLA genes investigations are true or false''', we should only '''describe, not prescribe''', in accordance to the [[NPOV]] policy: "The research A, conducted by X,Y,Z is claiming A,B,C, because of C,D,E. The research B, conducted by M,N,O is claiming, bla bla. People P,Q,R believe that the research A is proving bla bla, People, T,U,W, on the contrary state that ETC." --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 05:03, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:Alright, please watch out for those software "mistakes". [[User:Decius|Alex]] 05:07, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
::I certainly didn't erase your posts if that's what you're implying. KissL suggested that what you viewed as Isterbinski erasing posts, could indeed be a deletion caused by a software mistake. And, again, I'm adding several other points, please be calm :-)--[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 05:17, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I think that it is better that to be done (if it is done, at all) in the current [[Macedonian Slavs]] article (which should be soon renamed in to Macedonians (people)), because that is the article that specifically discusses the identity of Macedonians. --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 05:09, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:The comparison with religious beliefs would not apply, because we are dealing with science, but the comparison with the [[Palestinians]] article shows how Wikipedia will basically handle it (detailing the controversy and the standings of the conclusions, problems with it, etc.). I agree it should not be included in [[Macedonia]]. [[User:Decius|Alex]] 05:13, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
::''Detailing the controversy and the standings of the conclusions, problems with it, etc.'' But, of course. --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 05:36, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I_sterbinski, you are formally right when you are saying that Miskin's link does not refer to the Macedonian/Greek HLA Genes research, however it's the same Arnaiz-Villena geneticist and it's probable that he's using the same methods. So, I_sterbinski, I do beleive that you are actually wrong when you say that this research hasn't been disputed in the scientific community. '''It is indeed disputed'''. However, some Decius and Miskin, you have rushed in, because some parts of the scientific community actually support Arnaiz-Villena (''Note that I mentioned my personal POV about the issue''),and the links are to be found in the [[Palestinians]] article. An explicit support can be found here - [http://www.tufts.edu/~skrimsky/PDF/nature_genetics.PDF]. Also, note that the same Arnaiz Villena is not some clown in the scientific community, in fact he was a member of the editorial board of "Nature" until he was dismissed from the editorial board. --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 05:34, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:Didn't rush in too much, I'd say. Your link, from my cursory reading, does not "explicitly support" his research, just says that ''expunging'' it from the literature is too harsh, that it should still be made accessible (not that its conclusions should be seriously considered). Am I wrong? I'll re-read it. ---[[User:Decius|Alex]] 05:42, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
::I'm not saying that you're wrong, however it appears that political/ethical arguments indeed prevailed over scientific and genetical arguments. See the Observer opinion about this - [http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,605798,00.html] --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 06:15, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:And you accuse [[Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza]], one of the greatest geneticists of the 20th century; Alberto Piazza, Genetics Dep. University of Torino; Neil Risch, Genetics Dep. Stanford University; as well as the majority of geneticists around the world to have acted unethically on political grounds, not scientific grounds. I do not agree that political issues prevailed here. HLA genes, like other such antigens, are found in different populations largely due to [[natural selection]]. There are other types of genes that follow this pattern, and I'll give examples later. Note that the ''Nature'' article affirms that natural selection mostly accounts for the distributions. I do not believe that political factors determined this, it just added to the outrage. ---[[User:Decius|Alex]] 11:07, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
::I'm not accusing anybody. See the Observer article which led me to my statement, which again, is my personal POV. And in my statement I'm only saying that the political and ''ethical'' arguments prevailed over scientific and genetical arguments. '''That, on the other hand does not mean that the scientific and genetical arguments were not valid. It simply means that they were possibly considered secondary.''' Also, I didn't any how insinuate that those famous geneticists were reacting on political basis. I also said that, the whole HLA Genes Research is suspicious to me, and I do not plan to defend it scientifically (Which I cannot do, even if I wanted, because my knowledge of genetics is minute) nor ethically (I'm concerned over the ethical issues of genes research as a method of determining ethnicity, as I already mentioned above). I'm only saying that there other arguments that seem to think that the research was dismissed primary because of political reasons (maybe the research itself was motivated by such reasons, I really don't know) So I would like to ask you, Miskin and I_Sterbinski not to put words in my mouth, and to drag me in to this genetical mumbo-jumbo, again. I don't like to participate in proving something about the research itself: ''There are people saying this, and there are people saying that about it'', and all views should be included. --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 13:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:I'm not putting words in your mouth. You gave a judgment, "it appears that political/ethical arguments indeed prevailed or scientific and genetical arguments". I don't think this is totally accurate. The political dimension brought attention to it, but the bad science dismissed it. [[User:Decius|Alex]] 13:21, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Update: I have just heard about the terrible airplane tragedy that happened near Athens. (I rarely watch news). Guess this wasn't the right day to react against Greek nationalism. My condolence to the victims. --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 13:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:And why do you keep mentioning this, unless to take pleasure in it? (see [[User talk:Bogdangiusca]]) [[User:Decius|Alex]] 13:21, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
However, Alex, I am concerned about your somewhat tacit support of Miskin's bombastic "REAL genetics search". I can not be sure of your intellectual integrity when you don't apply the same skepticism to his example of research, especially when names such as ''M. Papaioannou'' appear in it. Again, I'm suprised how come you didn't notice the obvious logical and historical flaws, as vigorously as you began to deconstruct the HLA genes research. The research shows us that they were looking for Greek genes in Pakistan, because Greek soldiers were there some centuries ago. However, the presence of Greek soldiers in Alexander the Great's army was never a matter of doubt. But there were Macedonian soldiers, as well. So, the research can be a some kind of proof that Ancient Macedonians were actually Greeks, ''only with the assumption'' that the Ancient Macedonians were in fact Greeks, as the research puts it - '''assuming that modern Greek are representative of Alexander's armies'''. We both now that this ''assumption'' is still debated in the scientific community. What is more interesting, the same research doesn't make a parallel between those Pakistani tribes and the representatives of any other modern nation - Macedonians, Albanians, etc. Furthermore, its summary is somewhat incoclusive - "Thus a ''small Greek contribution'' to the Pathans seems likely, the contribution to the Kalash ''is unclear'' and ''no contribution'' to the Burusho could be detected".
Again, I'm still very suspicious of Genes research and ethnicity. --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 06:05, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:Flavr, I do support the research (that [[Pashtun]]/[[Pathan]] have an amount of genes from ancient Greek or ancient Macedonian soldiers in Alexander the Great's army), even though I do not assume that ancient Greeks were genetically identical with ancient Macedonians, nor do I assume that Spartans were genetically identical with Athenians. My own point of view is that there was a genetic variation among ancient Macedonians and neighboring Greeks, but not that much, because of long cohabitation and probable [[Proto-Greek language|common origin]]. ---[[User:Decius|Alex]] 06:11, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
::How about this conclusion: The above consideration (Ancient Macedonians=Greeks) has been enforced on a scientific basis due to the results of the research. So, they went there, ''assuming'' that Ancient Macedonians were Greeks (even genetically identical), they found Greek genes (not considering the representation of other ethnic grupation's genetic characteristics), and according to Miskin, that ''enforced'' that Ancient Macedonians=Greeks. How come, knowing that the Alexander the Great's army was composed of Ancient Macedonians and Greeks (and given the fact that their historical, not to mention genetical kinship is disputed), this link provides that enforced, or definite proof? And what about Mr. Pappaioannou? Isn't his apperance suspicious for the very same reasons that you provided above. Or you are somehow, indirectly supporting his thesis that we are a Slavic crowd, these intelectually and morally inferior creatures? --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 06:38, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:I do not view this genetic research as proof that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks. Pappaioannou being involved is not to be ignored, but I don't make any allegations on his scientific ethics or competence. I do make allegations concerning the ethics and competence (in terms of genetics) of all the geneticists (or whatever the case may be)---Slavo-Macedonian, Spanish or what not---who were involved with the HLA gene research. Namely, my allegation is that they were unethical and incompetent. I never used the phrase "Slavic crowd", and I don't have the same views about [[Slavs]] that Miskin may or may not have. ---[[User:Decius|Alex]] 06:54, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
::Fair enough. I also do not suspect that Greeks within Alexander's army managed to reach Pakistan. However, I think that you should have dismissed his "definite proofs", especially when he seemingly accepted a racist stereotype, (as well as false accusations against me), with the same vigour that carried your dismissal of Isterbinski's arguments (who on the other hand, didn't claim definite proofs). Bad arguments are bad arguments, regardless which "side" puts them into light. However, this might be my own personal POV of the whole debate, I might be wrong. Regards. --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] 07:28, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:Bad arguments are bad arguments, but Sterbinski was in denial to the point where I was wondering whether he was insane or a chronic liar. [[User:Decius|Alex]] 11:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Genetics should not have entered this debate at all, especially in regards to Macedonia, a region of the world where the ethnicity and nationality of the overwhelming majority of its Christian inhabitants was decided on entirely arbitrary grounds ''within the last century''. That genetics should have been invoked by someone who claims to be a human rights activist is particularly appalling.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 11:23, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:To be fair, I led him to bring whatever he felt was evidence against the historical consensus that practically all if not all the ancient Macedonians were Hellenized or Romanized before the Slavic arrival. He brought what he may have felt was evidence, but it in fact turned out to not be very good evidence at all, according to the majority of genetic authorities. He denied and perhaps still denies that most geneticists have dismissed that paper, but he is the only one on this talk page who seems to claim this. I'm glad he brought what he brought (what he felt was the best evidence) because now we see how shoddy it is. [[User:Decius|Alex]] 11:34, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:I eagerly await the psychotic rant that he will entertain us with tomorrow. ---[[User:Decius|Alex]] 15:44, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
==protection==
why is the reason for protection not announced here? Why is an edit such as this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Macedonia&diff=next&oldid=20540729] possible while the article is "protected"? Who protected it today, since apparently there were edits between 11th and 16th August? I will unprotect it now, and if you want to reprotect it, put it on [[WP:RFP]]. Why did admins "rv+protect"? This is a content dispute, and we don't know which is the "right" version. Miskin is wrong in calling a content dispute "vandalism", of course, but that isn't sufficient to "rv+protect". [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''ᛏ''')]]</small> 13:23, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
and for pity's sake remove the Alexander statue from the intro. This article is about "the geographical and historical region", not about Alexander's conquests. If both sides could stop droning on about Alexander, things would already lighten up. So Alexander had an empire for a couple of years? Big deal, it crumbled almost as soon as it was established. He basically just wrecked the Persian empire. This has nothing to do with Macedonia, the topic of this article. So "Macedonia" is used for two regions in two countries today? Big deal. "Macedonian Slavs" or "Slavic Macedonians" for inhabitants of the FYRoM is not a racial slur for god's sake, it's a ''disambiguation'', just like "Greek Macedonians", referring to the inhabitants of the Greek province. In an international context "Macedonians" is usually enough, because there is only one contemporary ''nation'' called Macedonia, but when disambiguation is required, like here, "Macedonian Slavs" is a perfectly good term. It's not that non-Greek non-FYRoM people lack understanding of the case, it's that they ''simply don't care'' about that stupid '''naming''' dispute (not territorial or anything), and think that both sides are just making fools of themselves. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''ᛏ''')]]</small> 13:40, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
::::I couldn't agree more strongly with you, that "Macedonian Slavs" is a perfectly good, neutral and descriptive disambiguation term and not in the least a ... racial slur (!). Now how does this make ''me'', for one, a fool? [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 12:37, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::::Of course you would agree, because that name satisfies your assimilation claims and politics. I don't understand how can someone even dare to try to change someones nationality? Who do you think you are, god? Why you think you are better than me, so you can dare to change the name I will identify with? As soon as you let me to change the names of your own nationalities, then we can talk. But till then the nationality that you are talking about will have one name only: Macedonians.
:::::::Making difference between the modern Macedonians and antique Macedonians is completely OK, but taking the right of self-identification away from 2,5 million people can only be described with one word: assimilation. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 00:46, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
:::What do you suggest, dab, in order Macedonians to stop "making fools" from themselves? Change their name and identity? You can not change someones identity by negotiations. It takes centuries to build national identity. How can anyone expect us to change it over night? [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 03:21, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Didn't it take you 14 years? [[User:Miskin|Miskin]]
:::Only a completely uneducated person can beleive in that. You can not form a nation in less than a century. Especially not on the Balkan, with so many nations on so little teritory.
Did you maybe skip classes in your primary education, Miskin? Can you ask to get in some night school?
:::And how will you explain the 1000s of Macedonians who are completely aware of their ethnicity, that still live in Greece and never were a part of Yugoslavia? How did they "become" Macedonians? Especially because they were not even allowed to speak their mother tongue in their houses and without having even the basic human rights for education and organizing culture events in Greece. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 04:16, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
:The article was protected by [[User:Kim_Bruning]] after s/he apparently shed a tear over [[User:I_sterbinski]]'s hysterical rants (see his gushing comment [[Talk:Macedonia#protected|above]]: "I'd be angry too"), even if Mr Sterbinki's [[User_talk:I_sterbinski#Spamming User Pages|spamming]] had previously earned him a volley of hot words from irritated admins.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 13:49, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
:::You call it tear, but the rest of the world calls it common sence. And yes, I was criticized for spamming. But, it was my first day on Wikipedia and my boss wanted to bring him results. So, I had no time to waste and I did not know that is a bad way to draw attention to some issue. More people will infrorm better about the issue, sooner they will understand how idiotic is the Greek position in the naming despute between the two countries.
:::Example: Till now, there were 2 votings in the European parlament on the issue "Recognising Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name 'Republic of Macedonia'". The first time, just 21 parlamentary members voted "For". The seccond time the number was more than 160. The goal is still far, but the neutral people will understand your hilarious position as soon as they inform themselves well about the issue.
:::Don't these numbers scare you Theathenae? Especially because Macedonia has no members in that parlament, and Greece, as a member of EU has many. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 03:21, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Do you know how many Greek companies have colonised FYROM? I'm sure that number will scare you more than the votes of some parliament. If Greece pulls another embargo, FYROM will find itself another 200 years away from joining the EU. I was against the first one, but after meeting more brainwashed haters like you on the internet, I'm beginning to think that it might be the only way to settle scores. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]]
:::Yes, I do know (but, learn first what colonization is, then use the word). They are here only because of lower taxes (15% in Macedonia, 35% in Greece) and better conditions for their work (less expensive working force). Read the "Elefterotipia" issues from 2-3 days ago, they have an article about it.
:::It is truth that Greece now is one of our biggest economic partners, but now is not 1994th anymore. We are going to get the candidate membership of the European Union till the end of this year and invitation for joining NATO in 2006th. We are getting more and more investments from other countries, especially Russia, USA, Germany, Slovenia etc. With embargo Greece will lose more than we will, including all the investments that your companies did lately. A move like that will close many Greek companies and lead many Greeks into bankropcy. It is a lot of money and only a brainless nationalist can allow that to happen. Not to mention the reaction of the world, especially now, when your authority is lower than ever.
:::You only bring problems to the EU. Minority rights, Cyprus, now Macedonia... how long you think you will be tolerated? USA already gave you a sign. Same happened with the parlaments of Italy, Germany and Great Britain. They already recomended to their goverments to recognize Macedonia under our constitutional and real name. Better understand that this politics did not bring you anything good, before you lose any respect from your own partners.
:::And just as a note. With this issue that we have, do you think Greece will invest any money in Macedonia if they didn't know that the naming dispute will be soon over and there won't be serious problems between Greece and Macedonia?
:::And for the end... in the following period another world power, your partner from Europe will do the same as USA did. I won't tell you any name, because that is against the politics of the organization that I am working for. Just, remember my words and when it happens (soon), you will know that I am not just talking bullshit. Cheers. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 04:33, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::You seem to harbor some strange ideas about the strategic and financial importance of your country, both of which are exactly ''zero''. It's time to wake up and smell the roses.
::::::Furthermore, you quite obviously know ''nothing'' about how the [[EU]] works. Allow us, being a member for a quarter century, to know just a wee bit more. Your country will never join the [[EU]]. Neither will Turkey, and even Romania and Bulgaria are in deep trouble. This has nothing to do with you, Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, or Greece. It is about the [[EU]] itself, the [[euro]] and the [[Common Agricultural Policy]]. '''The [[EU]] will [[EU_enlargement|completely halt its expansion]] for the foreseeable future''' because of ''internal'', not external reasons. Sorry to crash your dreams, but Frau [[Angela Merkel]] and Herr [[Wolfgang Schüssel]] have other plans. [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 12:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
:::When this issue is concerned, beleive me... I have much better information that you can ever have. Give me couple of days, so maybe I will be allowed to explain you why is that.
:::Putting this comment here shows how little you are informed about the present issues and problems in the EU. The comments given above are here for you and anyone who disagrees to remember them. Just 4-5 monhts from now, you will slowly see how they will start happening. After every next step, you will remember my words more and more.
:::And this words that I put here will not happen because I want, or I choosed them. They will happen because they are already dealed. Just remember all the changes that happened in the last 4-5 yeas around the Balkan, so you will see where is this all going.
:::BTW, you mentioned Turkey. Another issue that was already closed. It is only matter of time, no matter does Greece like that or not. Have you ever tought how dangerous is if Turkey leaves the European option and start forming its own union with the middle east countries? That is something that will be a disaster for both, EU and USA. Do you think something like that will be allowed?
:::You will be even more suprised of the role that some of the persons that you mentioned will have. But, you did not predict their role well.
:::Greece is actually the one who will fight a lot for the entrance of all Balkan countries in EU and NATO. Maybe the Macedonian minority in Greece is calm and quiet, but there are other bigger minorities in Greece that are not so tolerant. Think about it, you will figure it out. The development of the Balkan countries will be high in the list of priorities of Greece and other EU countries. That is the only way how they can protect themselves from waves of people comming in their countries from the non-EU countries.
:::That is how much you know about politics and the present issues. Cheers. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 01:31, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
::::I'm afraid my information only comes from the likes of the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Monde Diplomatique, the Guardian, the Independent, the Times, the Sueddeutsche Zeitung, the Corriere della Sera and the International Herald-Tribune, all of them rather lowly publications of poor record. I am sure they lack the insight and analytical powers of your local papers, with their superior access to information and influence over the minds of the powerful. [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 10:41, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
:::I won't comment on the list of newspapers and magazines that you listed here. I will just say that those are just a little of the sources used for my posts. Please try to avoid giving future comments about this just for day or two more. I beleive that soon you will be suprised and confused. Soon, I will post my final comment, please leave any comments that you have for after you read it.
:::In the same time, I would like to point out your senceless try to give a wrong impresion to the other readers of this page concerning my sources. Again, please spare everyone and wait some day or two more. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:21, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
:So far, the only "source" that "human rights" crusader [[User:I_sterbinski]] has provided is a discredited "genetics" paper that "proves" that Greeks have sub-Saharan (what the "Macedonian" "scientists" ''really'' mean is ''sub-human'') genes. [[Macadamia nut]]s on the other hand are white, of course, which means that they have a God-given right to the entire length and breadth of Macedonia, if not the entire empire of Alexander the Great.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 03:36, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
:::That are your words. Quite dull, though. There is no god-given right to anything that concernes the Balkan. I will repeat this for the 100th time: '''no one has exclusive right to that part of history, including many other things'''. Cry as much as you want, but that will stay unchanged.
:::'''No one''' called you sub-human. Your words, not mine. If that is what you feel you are, maybe you should check your mental condition and see what problem you have.
:::If you really insist, the nowdays Macedonians generarly have quite lighter scin and hair than anyone else on the Balkan. But, '''no one''' ever used that in any kind of corespondence. That is something that even the most nationalistic Macedonian web pages won't write, because even they are not racists. Only you Theathenae are the one who gives racial comments, which I think is quite idiotic. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 18:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
:Really? You're probably confusing them with the Albanian majority of Araçinovë, where you happen to be, and which if I'm not mistaken is the same Araçinovë whence Albanians shelled Skopje back in 2001. The people around you may indeed be fair, but they are not "Macedonians". The "Macedonians" I've seen look rather like [[Roma (people)|Roma]]. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 06:14, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
== maki-kedones ==
''Another suggestion is that the name means "highlanders", from a Macedonian [[bahuvrihi]] maki-kedones "of the high earth", cognate to Greek khthon "Earth".''
:Is ''maki-kedones'' attested?--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 15:31, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
::No, it's just etymological phantasy. ''μήκος/μάκος'' has only been used to denote ''height'' (as opposed to length) when it refers to stature of humans, and in one instance ([[Aristophanes]], the Birds) to refer to the imaginary wall built around ''Nephelococcygia''. It is quite plain that μήκος can be used to mean height or depth ''only'' if one dimension of a three-dimensional object is relevant. [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2364596 LSJ quite matter-of-factly states that μακεδνός is a form of μηκεδανός]. [[Homer]] mentions a [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?lookup=makedno%2Fs&lang=greek&group=bilevel tall poplar tree], [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0136&query=book%3D7%3Acard%3D77 not one that ... grows on high ground!] [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 11:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
:I also do not see much likelihood for "maki-kedones". I fully agree that [[Makedon]] has a clear [[Ancient Greek|Greek]] etymology. But apparently, so has the name of this [[Thracian]] tribe: [[Trausi]]. ---[[User:Decius|Master Killer]] 15:50, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Really? [[Trausi]] also has a "clear" Greek etymology? [[Trausi|Your article]] says that this etymology you mention is merely "more '''probable'''" than another, and that "''thrauô'' ... '''would be''' a cognate". There you quite rightly ''qualify'' possible etymologies, which are far from "clear". Furthermore, the Greek derivatives of ''thrauô'' are [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2349069 ''thrausis''] (breakage, comminution); [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2349073 ''thraus'''tes'''''], one who breaks; ''thrausma'', shrapnel, etc. If those skullcrushers did have, or were given, a Greek name, they would be ''Thraustai'', not [[Trausi]]. Not much of a dagger, then: easy to dodge, and dull-bladed too :-)) [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 16:36, 17 August 2005 (UTC) (Not even a [[Buława|skullcrusher]], for that matter)
:Chronographos, the inflections ''thrausai'' and ''thrausoi'' are mentioned in the Perseus entry for ''thrauô''. I didn't say that the ethnonym [[Trausi]] has exact Greek inflection, but its most probable etymology is very close to those Greek forms (a clear correspondance, one might say). ---[[User:Decius|Master Killer]] 16:46, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
::I know. ''Thrauo'' is a regular (i.e. ''easy-peasy'') verb, therefore I can conjugate it backwards and forwards from memory. [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 16:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
::Yes, but is that what they called themselves or just what Herodotus and the Greeks ''chose'' to call them?--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 16:19, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
:I thought about that, but linguists/Thracologists such as Duridanov that I've referenced consider it to be from the Thracian vocabulary. There are other close cognates known between Thracian and Greek, and some linguists even propose a common branch for them. It's always possible that ''Makedones'' was originally an [[exonym]] as well. ---[[User:Decius|Master Killer]] 16:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
== I sterbinski ==
He wrote various things but I couldn't help making these notes:
''Macedonians is the only name we know, only name we have and the only name that we used. We identify only with that name.''
What about the 2.500.000 Macedonians (that's the population of [[Macedonia (Greece)]] according to the 2001 statistics) who are self-identified as Greeks? Don't they have the right to be called Macedonians? Why people of FYROM didn't try to find an original name? Using just the term Macedonian is wrong like it was wrong to use the [[Vergina Sun]] for FYROM's flag. But you couldn't think that this is like stealing other's history.
:::The population of Macedonia (Greece) does not identify their nationality as Macedonian. They identify themselves as of Greek nationality. And, you are forgeting that it is well known that that part of Greece is called Macedonia in 1960s and 1970s. Before that, people were sent in jail if they identify themselves as Macedonian. After that, you encouraged the Greeks to use that term and the modern Macedonians were still sent in jail.
:::We identify our nationality as Macedonian. We did not pick that name. This was that way since we know about ourselves. I will say again... only a fool can beleive that someone can pick a name of its nationality in a meeting or by a decision. Nationality is something that is formed for centuries, a process that can not be controled.
:::About the Vergina sun (The sun from Kuklish)... that simbol can be found on Macedonian houses, churches and gates which are centuries old all over Macedonia. Same as for the Macedonian name, Greece can not claim exclusive rights over that symbol or anything else that happened 25 centuries ago. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
''And yes, I was criticized for spamming. '''But, it was my first day on Wikipedia and my boss wanted to bring him results.''' So, I had no time to waste and I did not know that is a bad way to draw attention to some issue.''
So is he paid to write those things?
::Apparently, if you consider "Macedonian" denars ''payment''. Or maybe he is paid with eggs or something. You know, "WILL WORK FOR FOOD" placards, etc. If this is the case, then I'd rather argue with his boss directly. "Cut out the middleman", that's what I say. We western capitalists are efficient, ''ruthlessly'' efficient. Now where's my [[whip]]? [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 00:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Wait for day or two more. You will see what I am talking about and you will swallow your words back.
::::And, by the way... thank you for this comment. This is exacly what I need to persuade my boss to let me reveal all the story behind i_sterbinski. Wait for day or two, you will see what I am talking about. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::So, your Wiki-edits are subject to approval by your ... "boss"?!? Wow, he seems to be very, er, ''bossy''. How is [[Mafia#Mafia_structure|"capo di tutti capi"]] in your language? [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 09:47, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, they are. As a matter of fact, they have to be aproved by whole bunch of people of 11 different nationalities.
::::::::Finnaly, I got an aproval to explain you the story. I will post it very soon here or on the Village Pump, because this concernes the rest of the Wikipedia much more than it concernes the Macedonia talk page. Be patient, kid. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 19:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
By the way I've just seen that [[User:Vergina|Vergina]] has collected a lot of [[User:Vergina|facts]] showing that ancient [[Macedon]] was greek. I 'm reading comments by people of FYROM that they don't claim ancient Macedonia for themselves. So, I'm guessing they wouldn't object for example adding info about [[Isocrates]] on [[Alexander the Great|Alexander]].
[[User:Matia.gr|MATIA]] 00:11, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
::::It is completely idiotic to claim anyone to have a direct connection to something that happened 25-30 centuries ago. There can not be a proof of someones Greek, Macedonian, Bulgarian or any belonging for something that happened so long time ago. The modern nations formed after the 13th century, even a primary school kid can tell you that. Any attemt to prove something different can only be a nationalistic dream, no matter does it come from Macedonian or from the Greek side.
::::Many Macedonians claim connection to the Antique Macedonians, same as the Greek claim it. But, objectively, '''no one of them (Greek or Macedonian) can have exclusive right over the Antique Macedonia and its history and culture'''. Get used to it. '''Modern nations can not ever have a direct link to any antient people'''. Anywhere in the world. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 02:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
::Oh yes, they can. The Chinese, the Koreans, the Japanese, the Jews, us Greeks, and probably others too, can and do claim such a connection, most legitimately. It depends on when they formed their language and "produced culture" [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 14:06, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
::::That is showing your knowledge about the human history. Direct connection is non sence. Connection yes, but limited. Especially on a teritory as the Balkan, where at many nations live next to each other for very long time, on a very little teritory. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 19:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Keep characterizations like idiotic for yourself.
::That was ment just for provocation. It already worked on other user, but you kept it quite calm. That is what I wanted to see.
::I will explain the reason for this soon, on the final post. Sorry for any offensive words that I used. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 19:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Spamming, insulting other people, and deliberately telling lies or should I say promoting propaganda. Keep up the ''good'' work and you shall earn a permanent ban.
[[User:Matia.gr|MATIA]] 12:21, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
http://www.livius.org/greece.html go and read if you care about historical facts.
I think that the anonymous user on the edit war (see history of the article) is Mr "I sterbinski" and that would be one more reason to get him reported.
[[User:Matia.gr|MATIA]] 12:28, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
::I know that site. Talks about Antien history. '''Antient'''. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 19:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
:::BTW your edit summaries are [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Macedonia&diff=prev&oldid=20379474 '''''masterly''''']! [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 20:03, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
::::That is something called "Neutrality". Maybe you should learn little more about that. Soon you will be explained how can I claim a complete neutrality for myself, no matter that I introduce as Macedonian. That is truth, but just partly.
::::Only one mistake was intentionaly made, concerning the period of the Balkan Wars. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 20:24, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
::Notice the "anonymous editor's" edit summary title: ''"02:37, 17 August 2005 62.162.196.20 (I saw that the talk page is full of complaints from the Macedonians, but no one reacts. So, I decided to react and help those poor people.)"''. So who is this [[Good Samaritan]] who is trying to help ''"those poor people"'' out of the infinite kindness of his gentle heart? A Canadian? A Frenchman? A Swede? ''Noooooooo'', his IP resolves to .... ''"Makedonski Telekomunikacii A.D."''. Indeed this person did 11 (!) reverts on August 17th, 2 on Aug. 18th and 2 on Aug. 19th. The August 17th reverts (all of them done within ''one hour and ten minutes'') were re-reverted by '''admins''', who did not even bother to report him for a 3RR violation, let alone block his IP. [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 13:49, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Officially anouncing: I am connected to those reverts. But, you still don't know who am I, so keep your comments till you learn this.
::::The exact comment that you mentioned left when reverting the Macedonia page was done by person who actually has Greek nationality and lives in France. Seems little confusing, but I will say again... wait, it will be explained to you. [[User:I sterbinski|I sterbinski]] 19:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::At least he wasn't a [[Martian]]. That was ''quite'' a relief! [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 19:54, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
==To User [[User:62.162.193.198]]==
[[User:62.162.193.198]] write:
WARNING: Greek propaganda follows!!!
::What is here Greek propaganda?
::[[User:Vergina|Vergina]] 08:57, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
:::This "Greek propaganda" exists his head. His is a country that has next to nothing. It is therefore in need of a history and an ideology to keep it together. What better way to create both a history and an ideology (i.e. ''glue'' to hold it together) than by creating enemies? So enemies they do create: in their heads ... [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 09:47, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
During the last week the Greek nationals are constantly working on changing the Macedonia article in a way how to aprove the Greek position about this issue. Some politic facts are added that are not truth at all. Anyway, even without this edits the Macedonia article was a true Greek propaganda and Bulgarian propaganda. Anyway, it won't work.
The Greeks would like the Macedonians to disappear, but it doesn't work that way. Saying that we are creation of Tito and that we are actually "confused" Bulgarians won't change the fact that 3 million people feel as Macedonian and are proud to be Macedonians.
Chronographos, you only may wish your words are truth. We don't want any enemies. But, it is hard not to hate you when you deny the existance of my nation and culture. We are reality and you can not change that with your bullshit. [[User:62.162.193.198|62.162.193.198]] 12:57, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
:You will stop your vandalism or you will be blocked. The choice is yours.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 13:04, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Are you aware how empty your words seem like? I have about 11000 different IP addresses that I can use only on one server. Not to mention the other servers.
:Actually you have been using the same IP range, a dynamic IP from the same ISP. All it takes is a block on 62.162.*. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 14:25, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::That way you are actually blocking about 50000 people who are using that ISP. And, it won't work again, because I have free dial-up from 4 different providers. Blocking all Macedonian providers will be exacly what Wikipedia does not want: Taking sides, by blocking the whole country. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Please block me Mr. Theathenae. But, that won't change the fact that you are a nationalistic propagator and liar. [[User:62.162.193.198|62.162.193.198]] 13:10, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
::U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations Vol. VII, Circular Airgram (868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944) by then Secretary of State E. Stettinius: “The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia emanating from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. “This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland” or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece”.
::[[User:Vergina|Vergina]] 13:14, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Interesting. Just note that Mr. Edward Stettinius was also of Greek national origin, same as you.
::::Then USA wanted to stop forming and further growing of Yugoslavia, which was a close ally of the Soviet Union (in that time).
::::Same USA today recognizes Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name, no matter of the Greek protests. They understand how senceless is this Greek propaganda and politics of "all the world has Greek origin, just they are not aware of it". [[User:62.162.193.198|62.162.193.198]] 13:42, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::Really? [http://www.nndb.com/people/487/000059310/ Let's see]:
:::::::Edward Reilly Stettinius, Jr.
:::::::Born: 22-Oct-1900
:::::::Birthplace: Chicago, IL
:::::::Died: 31-Oct-1949
:::::::Father: Edward Reilly Stettinius, Sr.
:::::::Wife: Virginia Gordon Wallace
:::::Greeks who migrated to America in the 19th century, named ''Edward Reilly [[Stettin]]ius Sr.'' and ''Virginia Gordon Wallace''? It seems to me that Secretary Stettinius (a typical [[Baltic languages|Baltic]] name) was a partly a German from [[Stettin]] and partly of British/Irish extraction. It seems that there is no limit in the amount of lies and misinformation you are willing to put forward as "arguments". You even have this naive idea that members of the US Administration can tilt such a formidable diplomatic and military machine towards their ethnic sympathies, whatever those may be.
:::Don't dream. US was scared of Tito and its power same as they were scared of Stalin in that time. Of course they wanted new Yugoslavia not to have a part of the Aegean sea, which was and still is quite strategic.
:::And, do you maybe forget which side US supported in the Greek Civil War?
:::So, Edward is Baltic name? Good thinking. Whatever he was, and no matter which were his motives. From his report, it is obvious he did not wanted Tito to put his hands on Aegean Macedonia.
::::Changing your tune, eh? Now it's not Secretary Stettinius' non-existent Greek ancestry, it's geopolitics. Well, I have a surprise for you: '''everything''' is geopolitics [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 11:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Truth, everything is geopolitics. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::And why you never mentioned that till the civil war in Greece, Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like Wikipedia offends them) were dominant in Aegean Macedonia? What about the 300000 Macedonian and 100000 Bulgarian refugees from Aegean Macedonia?
:::And do you think the Macedonian partizans were fighting the Bulgarian nazi army in order to join Bulgaria? Why would they. Bulgaria already had most of Macedonia during the World War 2. But still, Macedonians decided to fight against them.
[[User:62.162.195.17|62.162.195.17]] 02:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Evidence, please? [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 11:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::The last posts were truth history facts, worvide accepted. Do you maybe need me to send you a proof that the world is going around the sun? So, you won't have doubts. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
US recognition of your country by its constitutional name is strictly conditional upon the continuation and resolution of the [[UN]]-sponsored talks, and in no way does it preclude the outcome of these negotiations.
:::The official recognition does not have any condition written. US announced that they are supporting the negotiations after the Greek presure, but no conditions were made. Of course, republicans need a part of the Greek wotes too, so they have to keep balance. But the fact stays... 3 of 5 permanent members of the UN Security council (US, Russia and China) recognize Macedonia under its real name: Macedonia. The parlament of the 4th member (United Kingdoms) already recomended to their goverment to do the same. And, it is interesting that both govermental and non-govermental parties in the UK support this recomendation. Same did the parlaments of Italy and Germany. Should I mention that the last 3 are Greek partners from Eu and NATO? But, obviously they can not support nationalistic politics like the Greek one.
:::Beleive me, if you had good sources, you will see that more "suprises" will follow for Greece.[[User:62.162.195.17|62.162.195.17]] 02:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
::::I just hope they are ''geopolitical'' surprises. I ''like'' geopolitical surprises. [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 11:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::You can sort them in any cathegory you want, but you won't like them [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::::What is obvious is that it is you who is imagining Greek propaganda and politics in whatever contradicts your position, even to the extent of ascribing non-existent Greek ancestry to an American Foreign Secretary born a century ago. Greece is not your enemy.
:::I know that and I am happy because it is that way. I see Greece as our friend and neighboor, but I can not close my eyes at the all "traps" that you put for us. If you do not recognize my ethnicity and deny my name, culture and general existance, then don't expect me to trust you. Even the best friend can stuck a knife in your back.
:::I have to mention that me, same as most of the Macedonians included in Wikipedia does not claim exclusive right over the term and teritory of Macedonia. But, no one can deny our right (that we share with you) to Macedonia and our right to keep our identity. As soon as you understand that we have no ambition to get Aegean Macedonia back, better for you and for us. Concerning Aegean Macedonia (the western part of it), you will have much bigger problem than Macedonia. You know what I talking about, so I won't specify. [[User:62.162.195.17|62.162.195.17]] 02:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
::::More ''geopolitical surprises''? [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 11:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:Not exacly. Another minority in Western Aegean Macedonia, but someone that know what is the only way to get the human rights they supposed to have in Greece. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::You can't ''possibly'' be talking about the ''Çamëria Liberation Army'', can you? You ''are'' in ''Araçinovë'', after all. Does [[User:Albanau]] know about this? I'm trembling at the knees...--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 15:06, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Firstable, I am not in ''Araçinovë''. The ISP server that I am using in this moment is located in a building of the ISP provider near that village. So, that is why you get that message.
:::I won't keep talking about this issue, because I have nothing to do with it. I just mentioned it that it happened in Macedonia. And Macedonia was giving much more rights to the minorities than Greece is doing now. Actually, as far as I know, Greece is officially and completely denying any minority in Greece except Turks.
:::Now, the minorities in Macedonia have more right than minorities in most of the European Union countries. We learned our lesson. But, Greece still didn't change anything. What will it take for you to learn your lesson?
:::I hope the price that you will pay will be far less than the price that we paid. Actually, I would be happiest if you pay no price at all and solve the minorities problems much easier than we did.
:::I will repeat... ÇLA is not my worry, so I won't continue talking about it. I have problems by my own and I won't involve in someone elses problems. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 15:25, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:Fear not, it won't happen in Greece. The Albanians are a shrewd breed and know not to bite the hand that feeds them.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 15:55, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::I would tell you the same if you asked me 5 years ago. Especially after Macedonia gave shelter to 300000 Kosovo refugees with Albanian origin while the Kosovo crisis was going on.
:::I would not generalise... most of the Albanians I know are wonderful people, many of them better than myself. All I am saying is that not everyone would ask for his rights and accept to keep suffering... there are people who would do much more to get what they deserve.
:::I wish I am wrong, but...
:::Lets' stop this talk, it is not a part of the Macedonia issue. Maybe on some other discussion page. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 16:07, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:You are comparing incomparable situations. I'm sure the Albanian insurgency in your country had less to do with ethnic rights and much more to do with basic bread-and-butter issues like poverty and unemployment. A well-fed person with a decent standard of living is less likely to engage in guerrilla warfare. These of course are problems facing the Slavic majority too, but in the case of the Albanians they were exploited by nationalist politicians on both sides. I'm sure they will ease as your country develops, with Greek investment and assistance.--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 16:15, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::You are right for many of the things. But also, partly you are wrong. The worst thing you can do is underestimate the situation. That is what we did. That is what the Serbians did before the Kosovo crisis. It is not so simple like it seems.
:::Before the incident started in Macedonia, their economic situation was exacly the same as of the majority Macedonian population. Most people (including the Albanian side) beleive that the crisis was caused by Kosovo criminals. To be honest, all that incidents that happened looked highly suspicious... they look like they were already dealed and set up. Politics is a bich. Unfortunatelly, all our world is moved by the politics.
::: I would like to hear your honest oppinion... Don't you agree that the minorities in Greece (including the Macedonian, or Macedonian Slav if you prefer) have far less rights than the minorities should have? [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 01:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::What "minority"? Slavomacedonians have their own political party, the "Rainbow Party". It hasn't really done too well in recent elections. As a matter of fact they didn't even stand in the last parliamentary elections at all, from fear of ridiculously low vote returns. Even in the European Parliament elections, where voting tends to drift away from party loyalties, they did ''abysmally badly'': In Greater Thessaloniki they managed to drum up ... ''370 votes out of more than half a million votes cast''. In Western Macedonia, they managed about 900 votes out of 400,000 votes cast. In Florina alone they did just a touch better: 1200 votes in 40,000. [http://www.ypes.gr/ekloges/content/gr/europ_fr.htm Overall], the Rainbow party got ''six thousand votes in a country of eleven million people''. You call this a "minority"? I'd call it a joke. Even frank joke parties like the Vergis Naturists, the party of a madman who runs on a ... pro-nudism platform, and Enosi Kentroon, the party of a crackpot, managed to get between them more than '''ten times''' the votes Rainbow got. Trust me, when it comes to their rights, Greeks know how to defend them, and better than you think. This is what kept us around for 3000 years. [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 02:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::No reply yet, huh? Thought so. It just occurred to me that the "Rainbow Party" is using a version of the [[Rainbow Flag]], a well-known symbol of the [[gay]] rights movement. It seems to me that [[Macedonian Slavs]] have this thing about "borrowing" [[Vergina Sun|other people's symbols]] as their own. Oh, the irony .... [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 10:19, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::::::Yes, I posted a reply, but probably you did not see it. You can find it right after this comment (it was posted yesterday). And, did you hear that after the rain, a rainbow appears because of the sun? Those people there are in rain now, without the basic rights they deserve. So they are waiting for the sun, when they will get their rights. That is why they use the Rainbow.
:::::::::::[[Somewhere Over the Rainbow]], way up high,
:::::::::::There's a Land that I heard of once in a lullaby.
:::::::::::[[Somewhere Over the Rainbow]], skies are blue,
:::::::::::And the dreams that you dare to dream really do come true.
:::::::::::::[[Judy Garland]] aka [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 10:51, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Good to know the place where your dream come truth. Not on mother earth, because here there is something called "reality". [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 11:02, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::::::And about the Vergina star... you discovered and promoted the star during the last 70-80 years, when you saw it in those Antien Macedonian thombs. For your information, there are Macedonian houses and monasteries which have the Vergina (Kuklish) star that are older than 2 centuries and well preserved. Yes, irony... who would tought? I invite you to visit Macedonia, to see that your hi-school history book is hiding many facts. The comment you looked for is right under, posted yestereday. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 10:33, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::::::::The [[Vergina Sun]] was a well-known Macedonian decoration motif since "Antien" (sic) times. What was not clear was that it was a [[heraldic]] symbol or the Argead dynasty: this was clarified after the discovery of the gold ''larnax'' of [[Philip II]] (or [[Alexander IV]]) by professor Andronikos. [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 10:51, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Still the fact stays... we were using that symbol for centuries. And another fact stays... you started intensively presenting the Antique Macedonian history, symbols and the Macedonian name just some 40-50 years ago. Then you changed the name of the region in Macedonia, you built the monument of Alexander the Great, you put many streets to have names conected with Antique Macedonia, you even formed a separate minestry in the goverment for Macedonia region. I repeat, all that in the last 40-50 years.
:::::::::::::Anothe fact stays, clearer than anything... you can not keep the Antique Macedonian history and simbols exclusively for yourself. We both (and probably couple of nations around us) have connection to those people. But, if you learned any history, you would know that there is no dirrect connection between the Antique population and the modern nations and ethnicities. Any historian who has at least 2 grams of brain will confirm you that. So, how can Kuklish (Vergina) star be exclusively your simbol? [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 11:02, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::This was not very neutral. Yes, Rainbow got low per-cent of votes. But Macedonians (or Slavomacedonians, if that suits you better) still fear that they will be penalised, fired from their jobs or similar, things that happened very often in the past. Actually, most of the official members of Rainbow party that worked in govermental institutions lost their jobs since they joined the party.
::::Hello, knock-knock, anybody home? Voting is ''secret''': voters are given their ballot papers and an envelope, they go into this little booth where noone can see them, insert the party ballot of their choice in the envelope, seal the envelope, exit the booth, and drop the envelope in the ballot box. Secret voting is a must in all Western democracies. I guess you are not familiar with democratic procedure. [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 10:26, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::I know very well democratic procedure, we are not so uncivilised as you think. If you want to keep any conversation, stop underestimating the others. This kind of comments give me impresion that you are some hi-school kid or something.
::::::Voting is secret, but everyone knows who is Macedonian. If they even appear voting and the voting results are good for Rainbow party, then they would know who could voted for them. Even showing on the voting place for the Macedonians in Greece is risky, because they might have problems because it is obvious that they will vote for Rainbow.
::::::And why would you think that every Macedonian would vote for Rainbow? Why if they like the other candidate more, no matter he is Greek? We are not blind of nationalism to vote only for Macedonians.
::::::Democracy was born and it died in Greece. That is a comment that I heard from a ex-director of the US peace corps in Macedonia. I wonder why he tought that way? [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 10:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::Chronographos, even the Greek constitution on the oppening sections clearly says that in Greece live only Greeks. Any minorities in Greece are ignored, saying that there is no any. And, you can see alone that there is no serios human rights organizations that did not criticized Greece for the treatment they have towards the minorities.
::I saw that someone posted here some links about human rights in the countries of the Balkan. You can read by yourself.
::Personally, whenever I go to Greece, I always find someone to talk on Macedonian with. Even Greeks, who happened to have many Macedonian neighboors. I agree that their per-cent is not very high, but it is far far higher than 1% that Rainbow got on the elections. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 02:34, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Not very good at math, are you? It's not "1%", it's more like '''0.1 %''' [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 10:19, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::Sorry, mistake. But that does not change the fact that I can bet my life that there are much, much more Macedonians in Greece. Give a right to everyone in Greece to state his nationality and ethnicity as they want, without any bad consequences and you will see. Till your constitution says that in Greece live only Greeks, till then you did not even started the way towards the truth. And that is just the first step. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 10:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Greece is the best and most valuable friend you can have in the region. It is the wealthiest, stablest country in the Balkans, and its interests firmly lie in stability and the creation of wealth. You too should strive towards those goals.[[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 14:55, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
:::As I said, I can not trust someone who denies even my existance and sais that I am an artificial product of Tito. And do you know who is our real friend in the region? Turkey. They recognized our existance and country just months after we got our independence. They do not deny my nation, language or culture. Actually, they support it.
::::Turkey has a long and noble tradition of supporting different languages and cultures. Except they do it in their [[Kurds|own, special way]] [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 11:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
::As a Greek, you don't have any right talking and criticising anyone in areas concerning minorities and their rights. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::I agree that we all should work towards the stability of the region and its well-beeing. But, Greece is doing exacly the opposite for us. Our development would be much easier and faster if you didn't stand on our name and force us to use a name that we do not identify with. Luckily, the support you had is fading away, so finally we have a chance for going forward.
::::How very true. In the past, whenever someone came across a FYROMian product, they just soured their faces and refused to buy. Whereas now they come across the same "Macedonian" product and their faces just light up with joy. This explains your country's recent prosperity, I guess [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 11:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
::Quite arogant comment. Still, truth stays... the recent surveys show that No. 1 problem to an average Macedonian is the economy situation. Right after that are the problems that Greece makes to us. That is bigger problem to the Macedonians and Albanians living in Macedonia even from the ethnicity relations between them, the corruption, the law system etc. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::But, be sure that keeping our national identity and name is more important for us than the European Union membership. After this long fight for centuries for our recognition, only an idiot and traitor can accept anything else than our basic human right of self-identification, language and culture.
:::It is strictly up to you will you decide to be our friends. Not just prettend to be one. You have our friendship, that was never a question.
:::Are you afraid of us and those stupid nationalists who want Aegean Macedonia back? Because, as far as I remember, Macedonia and Greece never were in war. Actually, modern Macedonia never attacked any teritory. We are peaceful people, but do not use that. [[User:62.162.195.17|62.162.195.17]] 02:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
I had to report the repeated vandalism by the anonymous user. Hopefully the admin's will check if he/she already has an account but didn't sign in.
I must remind vandal's quote "Vandalism is what you are doing for the last 5 days".
[[User:Matia.gr|MATIA]] 16:39, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
:::The "vandal" is just trying to inform the people about the real idea behing the text. You are aware alone that all the crap on Macedonia page support the Greek and Bulgarian position about Macedonia. And, the Greeks support the Bulgarian claims, because they would like the idea Macedonian nation to disapear. But it does not work that way.
:::Macedonians are presented with Bulgarian origin and as artificial creation of Tito. How is that possible when they fighted against the Bulgarian occupation during the WW2?
:::Also, the complete Macedonian history is devided between Greece and Bulgaria. I understand that they both have claims toward specific parts of that history, but Wikipedia completely supports those claims and does not even mention the Macedonians in those issues.
:::Not to mention that centuries of assimilation, presure, attacks and killings against the Macedonians in Bulgaria and Greece (same as in Kingdom of Yugoslavia in the beggining of the 20th century) are denied or just shortly mentioned. On the other hand, the '''only''' incident that happened against the Bulgarian nationalities in Macedonia is described till the details.
:::Also, the exodus of the Macedonians out of Greece is supported because of their "involvement" in the Greek civil war. Why would they ever fight for someone else? Why Wikipedia does not mention the number of people who were runned away from Greece? Why it does not mention that every seccond modern Macedonian family has origin from Aegean Macedonia? Why Wikipedia does not mention that there are more than 500000 Macedonians who live in USA, Canada and Australia (combined) who never were living in Tito's Yugoslavia, but they still feel as Macedonians and educate their kids as Macedonian nationals?
:::Do not tell me that this text is Neutral. It is everything but neutral. Exacly the way you and the Bulgarians want it. [[User:62.162.195.17|62.162.195.17]] 02:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:So the vandal has been exposed as [[User:I_sterbinski]]. What a surprise! I think it is time for him to be ''runned away'' from Wikipedia...--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 04:46, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::Wrong. Anyway, does my identity really matters? [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Let me summarize our friend's style of argument: "traps", "knife in the back", "stupid nationalists", "crap", "idiot", etc etc etc. What else is new ... [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 11:34, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Probably that is all what matters to you. The language I use. I am not a politician and not planning to be. If I want to say something, I won't "sweeten" my words for you. I am not your lover to give you loving tender. What can I do when the crap written on the Macedonia page diserve nothing but that word... crap. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
=== answer to the vandal and a question for the admins ===
For the vandal: Vandalism, offending and using hypocritic phrases in the line of ''help me, I'm a poor guy'' are just the top of the iceberg. Greeks dont want to take or steal anything from you, nor deny your existence.
::This does not change the fact that they actually do that... deny my name and existence. I don't see myself as ''poor guy''. You are not strong enought to force us to forget who we are and our identity. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
You have your culture, history etc - be proud of it but respect the others too. Greece is not trying to take the name Macedonia from you but is trying to defend her rights.
::I do not remember any right that I took away from you. But I know many that you are or are trying to take away from me.
::And, I do respect your culture, history and civilisations. I see it as one of the most interesting and interesting in the whole world.
::I said many times that I don't have any wish to fight Greece and ask anything teritory from it. Only a crazy Macedonian nationalist can do that. All I want is you to understand that the Macedonian name is the only thing we have. That is the reality, presence. Something that we won't give a way even if we have to die for it. The past should be left where it belongs... in the past. That is the only way to get where we should go... in future. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
FYROM's thesis are already present in the english wikipedia and anyone can read those wikis' sections too. Learn how wikipedia works and show respect to wikipedia's principles.
::I know exacly how it works. I can even write that the earth is with a form of a triangle if I manage to outnumber the opponents of that thesis. Everything is possible here on Wikipedia, and the most of the administrators know that. That is why I give this comments... because you outnumber the Macedonians and push your thesis. Just check the names and nationalities of Wikipedia users who edit Macedonia page. 80% of them are Greek and 15% Bulgarian.
::Any edit made by an Macedonian user is reverter by a Greek user. Anyone neutral would know that something is wrong. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
And try to love your neighbors or at least not to show (and have) such hatred from them (I don't have to quote you, do I?). People of your land and people of Greece should try to find what they have in common, and explore new ways of co-operation.
:::I do not have anything against my neighboors. But I know that some of them would prefer we to disapear. And Wikipedia is just another proof of that. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
For the admins: I 've left a report on the [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#problem_report:_Macedonia|noticeboard]]. This doesn't have all the details, the history of the wiki must be examined for more. It is clear after his latest responses (secret ''sources'', and ''wait to see what'll happen in 2-3 days'') that a '''sockpuppet''' investigation should be done to show which user account (or accounts) he has. He will understand then, that avoiding to sign in and his use of more offensive language is not such a big decoy.
[[User:Matia.gr|MATIA]] 17:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
::Message to the administrators by the vandal:
::I do not have a account here on Wikipedia because I see that having one will not change anything on this issue. I know couple of my friends that spend a lot of time on Wikipedia trying to show how much Wikipedia is wrong and what all is done from the Greek users to stop any edits we want to make on the Macedonia related pages.
::This seems the only way how to fight against the assimilation, ignorance and denial from Wikipedia (and its users) towards the Macedonian people. [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]] 14:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Dear [[User:62.162.194.4|62.162.194.4]], first of all I must say I'm glad for the [[WP:COOL|cool]] style of your latest response. To understand how wikipedia works read the [[Help:Contents|manual]]. It's not a matter of bigger numbers of people but of facts.
::That is right. The problem here is just that the facts that go in favor of the Greece and Bulgaria are included and the facts that go in favor of Macedonia are excluded.
::And yes, majority decides. Because most of the neutral administrators do not have why to involve in someone elses problems and take sides, the Macedonia page is left mostly (or maybe even entirely) to us: Macedonians, Greeks and Bulgarians. And, we Macedonians are always highly outnumbered by the Greeks and Bulgarians. Always when a Macedonian gives a fact, his statements and edits are simply denied by the sides that don't like it (whether Greek or Bulgarian). Read this discussion page, you will see how many opposite POV's you can find. And, every neutral administrator will tell you that ALL sides have rights. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 02:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I'd suggest you remove the tag you placed, again, on [[Macedonia]], and then read [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Macedonia Talk:Macedonia] thoroughly, to see if any of your objections are already answered.
::I agree not to constantly put warnings of Greek and Bulgarian propaganda. I know that is not right and I am not proud of what I did.
::As you said, before I started doing this, I read all this talk page. I even met some Wikipedians who were highly involved in editing and discussions.
::I can not agree to remove the NPOV tag. Simply, every neutral person will agree that this page is too full of discussions and issues thatare not solved, issues when several sides have opposite thinking and interests.
::Everyone who visits the Macedonia page should know that many people do not agree with its text. That is why the tag itsef has a link to the talk page and advices to visit it. So, anyone who is interested can read and form his own oppinion.
::NPOV tag does not mean that the text in Macedonia page is wrong. It means that is disputed. And, it is in fact disputed.
::I did not put the tag saying that the fact's accurance is not accepted. I only put a tag saying that '''maybe''' (not for sure) this text is not neutral. It seem quite fair deal. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 02:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
After you do that check [[Macedonia]] find what phrases or section that you believe are POV or NPOV, and present [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Macedonia here] the reasons that justify your tag. Neither Earth nor Macedonia is a triangle, and wikipedia is an encyclopedia that tries to be verbatim to the facts on
controversial or not subjects.
::Reading this talk page, it is obvious that someone already tried that. Actually, several people did. Wikipedia stills presents the Macedonians as Macedonian Slavs. As far as I could read, Macedonian (nationality) or Macedonian (people) was proposed as a sugestion which is suitable for boths sides, but nothing changed. Also, Wikipedia says that Tito was the reason why part of the Bulgarians turned into Macedonians. But, the fact that the Macedonians were fighting against the Bulgarian occupation during the WW2 since the first month they arrived here. If that is truth what Wikipedia says, why would a Bulgarian fight against its own army? Why the 200000 lives were lost on our side? Simple answer: Because they were not Bulgarians. They were separate nation far before the WW2. The partizans that fighted Bulgarian occupation were not born in 1940th. They were grown people, born at least 20 years before, some of them even 60 years before. If they born as Bulgarian and raised as Bulgarian, they would not fight agains the Bulgarians.
:::::They were communists fighting an totalitarian, military regime allied with [[Nazi Germany]], and they were aspiring to a [[Stalin]]-inspired, "international workers' paradise". It seems that ''realism'' is a pervading national quality among you all. [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 02:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::::The communist party got in Macedonia in 1941st. Do you think the first month they appeared in the region they got the complete support of the people?
::::::::Actually, the communist got the support exacly because they fighted against the Bulgarians. Macedonians saw that we have the same enemy, so they joined them. That is actually why whole Yugoslavia became communists, because they were leading the fight against the Nazists. Before the WW2, the communist party was completely illegal and had extremely little support, mostly in Serbia.
::::::::Before 1941st, there was '''no''' single Macedonian who was known for having communist ideas. Actually, Goce Delchevs ideas were far pre-dominant. That is actually why we had so bad time under Serbian occupation.
::::::::That time was just 65 years ago. More than 7% of the population in Macedonia is older than 65. Do you think you know better than the actual partizans who took a part in the fights in WW2? [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 02:45, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::::::He said, she said .... You don't need a nationalistic pretext to fight against [[Hitler]] and [[Mussolini]]. If you are a half-way decent person, it happens sort of automatically. [[User:Chronographos|Chronographos]] 08:57, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::That does not come automaticaly.
::::When the Bulgarian came, we were under Serbian occupation. At first we hoped the Bulgarians will give us freedom (they always were pretending that they are our friends). But, as soon as we saw that they are actually just another occupator and that they are not our friends, we started fighting them. One occupator left, another arived.
::::The Bulgarians from Bulgaria, and those few in Greece and Macedonia were fighting for the Hitler and supporting him. They were a part of the Bulgarian Nazi army. If we were Bulgarians, we would do the same, support the Bulgarian army. But, as non-Bulgarians we fighted their occupation.
::::Chronographos, that is why I say that this page is full of nationalistic claims and edits that are always against the Macedonians. This last comment shows that you would even claim something which is completely out of any logic, only to deny what I say. And, this is something that happened just 65 years ago and it is completely logical, there are even many people alive who were a part of that war. What would happen if we start talking about something that happened centuries ago? You would deny whatever I say, call you friends to bombard me with comments and at the end nothing will change... "your" version will always be on, a version that is denying anything that is connected with us and presenting us as artificial product. I know my history and culture, I know what I am and how I feel. I have a right to feel anyway I want, and I can not allow someone taking that away from me.
::::Think about it. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 10:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::That is just 2 examples. I can write here till 5 days from now. But, most of that is already written or at least there was an attempt to present that here. Those attempts all ended up in the same way: Denied, most often without any realistic explanation. I won't play that game and beg for someone to listen to me. Obviously, you do not do that. You take actions and that is why Macedonia page has exacly the text that you completely support.
::You have to have understanding for our complaints. You are lucky you are Greek. But, if you were Macedonian (or Macedonian Slav, like Wikipedia addresses us), I can bet my life that you would do exacly what I am doing in this moment: Trying to prove that you are not imaginary and artifficial ethnicity. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 02:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm glad to know that you meant ''deaf'' and not dead or death, and I'm not in the mood of pointing out other insults you might used in the past. But the matter of '''sockpuppetry''' or not, must be checked by '''admins'''.
[[User:Matia.gr|MATIA]] 16:18, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::Yes, I am very sorry for that "death". I just wanted to say that some people are "deaf" towards our complaints, they do not want to listen to them and they do not care. I swear in my children that it was a spelling mistake.
::Damn, I hate what I did. I have nothing against you guys. I do not want bad to anyone. Sorry again.
::About the insults... they are not ment to insult anyone. They are just a kind of strong protest agains someones position. I pointed our before, I won't try to "wach my language" because I hate politicians and their way of "solving" our problems.
::I personally, same as many Macedonians do not exacly understand why we have this problem. I beleive all this problem is artificial, based on fears and untrust we have towards each other. But, it is especially hard for us, seeing that the only ethnicity we have is denied. All our identity is based on that (no matter did we appear 30 centuries or 30 years ago). The important thing is that now we are reality and nothing can change that. And we can not give up the only identity we have.
::As I said... if you were Macedonian (instead of Greek) you would feel the same. Simply, we would prefer to be able to obey Greeks wishes and claims, it would be much easier for us. But, we can not, we absolutelly have no other choise. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 02:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
=== -npov of anonymous ===
Dear 62.162.etc please create an account, or sign in if you already have one.
::What for? This page is full of comments of users who already did that. But, that did not change anything... the Macedonia page stayed anti-Macedonian. Why would I waste time like they did? Actions, my friend. Same as you do, take actions. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 17:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
You removed "([[Greek language|Greek]]:ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ)", please don't do such things, it's considered vandalism. I can show good faith and accept your apologies for before, but you have to prove with your actions that you "don't want to bad anyone". [[WP:COOL|Cool]] is good and [[Wikipedia:Neutrality]] is better.
The english word Macedonia derives from the Greek language.
::Same as the Macedonian word for Macedonia (Makedonija) derives from the English (Macedonia). But, whenever someone put that fact there, it was erased.
::So, explain me why should the Greek word for Macedonia stay and the Macedonian word to be erased? Are the Macedonians worst and less valuable people than the Greeks?
:: This is just one more example of how much pro-Greek is this page. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 17:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
The other phrase you changed is "The region is divided between [[Greece]], with just over half the area and population," we could check the geografical numbers if you wish.
::I did not change that. That change was made by someone from Australia (I checked the IP). I agree with that fact that you quoted because it is clear reality. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 17:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm putting back the first and leave as is for the time being the second change you made, and I remove the NPOV tag.
[[User:Matia.gr|MATIA]] 13:38, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::Sorry, Matia... I accepted '''stop''' putting the "WARNING: Greek and Bulgarian propaganda follows". But, especially after reading this talk page, it is clear to everyone who reads this that the neutrality on the page '''is disputed'''.
::I am not saying that the page has lies. I respect your POV and what is written on the page. But, I demand the Macedonian POV to be respected. There are many facts and evidence that support this POV, but any try to explain that here on the talk page ended up with organized denial of the Greek users, most often without any valid grounds. So, I won't waste my time proving something here. The history you and me learned and supported are different and we can not deal about it.
::So, NPOV tag has to stay, or the Warning will keep appearing. It is up to you to decide. I personally would like to keep the NPOV tag, it seems much more resonable for boths sides.
::Anyway, I keep claiming that the page is pro-Greek and pro-Bulgarian, but the NPOV tag is enought for me because it will say to every user to look on the talk page. So, anyone can see that there are different oppinions about this page. They should be informed about that.
::That is all what I want... the users to know that there are several issues that are not clear and that the concerned nations do not agree about.
::I think it is fair enought. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 17:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
=== It seems that reasoning isn't working ===
First of all if you want to answer don't fragment '''again''' my comment, answers are supposed to be at the buttom, so people can easily see what's new.<br>
You said ''"Same as the Macedonian word for Macedonia (Makedonija) derives from the English (Macedonia). But, whenever someone put that fact there, it was erased.
So, explain me why should the Greek word for Macedonia stay and the Macedonian word to be erased?"''<br><br>
I'll answer that and I'll stop trying to reason you. '''This''' is the '''english''' wikipedia. The english word Macedonia comes from the greek language. You say that in your language it is called Makedonija and it comes from the english. So according to you it is Makedonija < Macedonia < Μακεδονία. The greek word ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ is mentioned because it's the source of the english word. If Makedonija comes from Macedonia, then go to your homeland's language version of the wikipedia and on the Makedonija article write "Makedonija derives from the english Makedonia, which in turn derives from the Greek language".<br><br>
1)''"Many discussions were already made and nothing changed. Why keep wasting time on that?" "Why would I waste time like they did?"''<br>
Wikipedia is an open project, open like in open source. If you don't like the rules, at least stop destroying other people's work.<br><br>
2)''"I am aware that the talk page contains a lot of bullshit,"''<br>
Offending language once more. It seems that I wasn't smart when I believed that you'd quit doing that.<br><br>
3)You said: ''"I did not change that. That change was made by someone from Australia (I checked the IP). I agree with that fact that you quoted because it is clear reality. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 17:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)"''
And "I sterbinski" had said: ''"Officially anouncing: I am connected to those reverts. But, you still don't know who am I, so keep your comments till you learn this. The exact comment that you mentioned left when reverting the Macedonia page was done by person who actually has Greek nationality and lives in France. Seems little confusing, but I will say again... wait, it will be explained to you. I sterbinski 19:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)"''<br>
This is not the first similarities between you two. I don't know if you are his '''sock puppet''' or someone's else but enough is enough.<br><br>
4)You said: "We will never deal, because the history that I know and the history that you know are very different. And, they both have valid facts as a support"
"I keep claiming that the page is pro-Greek and pro-Bulgarian" "the users to know that there are several issues that are not clear and that the concerned nations do not agree about." Claims are NOT facts. I will tell you again to read the manual, this time [[Wikipedia:Cite sources]], but I 'm guessing you "won't waste time like this", as you didn't care to read the rules before.<br><br><br>
This situation is going on for too many days. An admin should show you that not signing in doesn't mean you won't get caught. I need to remind your quote "Are you aware how empty your words seem like? I have about 11000 different IP addresses that I can use only on one server. Not to mention the other servers." and [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#problem_report:_Macedonia|the report]] of your actions. All the IP's of ''anonymous'' vandals must be cross-checked, at least for the last 8 days. And I would like to know if Mr "I sterbinski" ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=I_sterbinski&offset=20050803132226&limit=50 his contributions]) is related too this. Perhaps this was what Mr "I sterbinski" meant when he said ''"Wait for day or two more. You will see what I am talking about and you will swallow your words back. And, by the way... thank you for this comment. This is exacly what I need to persuade my boss to let me reveal all the story behind i_sterbinski. Wait for day or two, you will see what I am talking about. I sterbinski 02:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)"''<br>
I repeat, this time '''dont split''' my answer. If you have to say something write it at the buttom. And you didn't provide NOT EVEN ONE answer about the reasons for your NPOV tag. Just your vague claims about your disagreement.
[[User:Matia.gr|MATIA]] 19:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::"The English word Macedonia comes from the Greek language..."... This simply proves that you have same thinking as the father of the bride in the movie "My big, fat, Greek wedding". I read that someone already mentioned this movie, but I yhink is worth mentioning again. And let's mention that the whole world was laughting at him. BTW, do not forget that the complete author of the movie was Greek.
:::Another fact is that the Greek language that you are talking is not the one that was been talked 20 centuries ago. Actually, it is very, very different.
:::Stop flying with your mind and understand: Greece is nothing more valuable than Macedonia or Bulgaria... or anyone else. Stop forcing your own facts and denying someone elses.
:::Answer to 1): I am not estroying people's work. I am destroying people's vandalisation of the history, culture and ethnicity of 2-3 million people.
:::Answer to 2) I was trying for very long time, but the only words that I could find for a text like this is: bullshit, idiotism, crap and nationalistic propaganda.
:::Answer to 3) Maybe you should stop comparing i_sterbinski and me. I_sterbinski is a friend of my brother and as far as I know, he was on Wikipedia for only 1-2 days. Latter he said that he won't waste his time on this shit, but that was at least 10 days before his last comment on this page appeared. I do not know did he change his mind and did some edits in meantime.
:::And if you want to know what was he thinking with saying that he will explain the truth behind I_sterbinski, ask him, not me. I am not going to be your postman to send him your messages.
:::Comment on your words: "enought is enought"... I know, that is why you should stop your nationalistic propaganda, borrow some money from your parents and travel a little, see the world. A 18 (more less) year old kid just started his life, you should learn a little about the real world before you try to change the history.
:::Answer to 4) As I said... whenever the Macedonian side wants to present some facts, you all get together and deny and ignore them. You regularly outnumber us and even texts published on web pages of famous universities are not enought for you. Why to bother and search all those books and web-pages to present you something here and you latter just to refuse it wiyhoutany explanation.
:::The situation will change. As open-source, Wikipedia will always be full of nationalistic blind people as you are, but the world will know the truth. And it won't be very similar to the pro-Greek and pro-Bulgarian Wikipedia page about Macedonia.
:::Closing statement... I don't know will Wikipedia administrators trace me, but it does not matter. I am sure that many of them know about this problem that happens here and aware that you monopolise the Macedonia issue. So, I beleive that they are not sure what is more "evil": Nationalistic claims as yours or anonimous edits as mine.
:::If you were hoping to "reason" me in a way how I will accept this anti-Macedonian text of Wikipedia, you are so wrong. This is just the beggining. If you don't want to listen to any facts except the ones that go in Greek's favour, I will present them as a proof of how dangerous is to livethe histrory to be edited by anyone who wants, especially nationalists. Many blogs and newspages already mentioned this Wikipedia's weakness and it is more than obvious they are aware of that.
:::If you ahven't notice, all the world calls us "Macedonians". Only Wikipedia supports the Greek wishes and calls us "Macedonian Slavs". For me, this is a clear proof that the Greek propaganda already nested itself here.
:::After the senceless explanation that you gave me about my question why to mention the Greek name for Macedonia and not to mention the Macedonian and Bulgarian, I will kind of begin to give you less answers and comments. I am not planning to waste my time dealing with a blind nationalist as yourself. When you read something more than your school book and the books that are "allowed" by your goverment, then call me. Till then, you are just one more kid who just started discovering the real world.
:::Cheers. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 04:51, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Your inability to understand my explanation shows that you didn't even bother to read [[Macedonia]], you were to busy vandilizing it.<br>
''"bullshit, idiotism, crap and nationalistic propaganda", "As open-source, Wikipedia will always be full of nationalistic blind people as you are", "I am not planning to waste my time dealing with a blind nationalist as yourself"''. Insults, insults, insults and absence of arguments.<br>
I don't know how you concluded that I'm more or less 18 years old, but I can tell you that you were wrong, once again. What I do know, is that if you learn to read modern Greek, the next easy step is classic Greek. The New Testament is a very cute example of Greek language as ''was talked 2000 years ago''. And btw there is not even one evidence that ancient Macedonians spoke a different language than their kings, a dialect of the ancient Greek language.<br>
I don't have to give you more links about the rules and principles of wikipedia. You won't ''waste your time'' reading them, since you are too busy pushing pov and vandalizing.<br>
[[User:Matia.gr|MATIA]] 10:04, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
::Oh, yes, I read the Macedonia page. Actually, I can tell you all the text in my sleep. That is why I oppose that text.
::When I said about the difference between the new and old Greek language, I was presenting to you the knowledge I got about this issue by a English profesor that teaches at University of London Old Greek language. I had a chance to meet him during my vocation in Egypt. I do not know much about your language, so I beleive the only expert in this issue that I personally met. He said clearly that the old and new Greek language are 2 different languages. The new Greek has origin from the old Greek, but it is same as Italian has origin from Latin. And a 5 year old kid knows that the Roman empire can not be '''directly''' with modern Italy. Then, how come you claim the direct connection to the antien Greeks?
::You are right, there is not even one evidence that ancient Macedonians spoke a different language than their kings, a dialect of the ancient Greek language. But, there are also '''no''' specific evidence that they did. Also, the evidence that the antient Macedonian kings spoke Greek before the 338th BC are '''very, very weak'''. After 338th BC, the antique Greece and its states was occupied by the antient Macedonia and there are ('''also weak''') evidence that after that the Macedonian kings used the Greek language in their private life.
::Greek language was dominant in that time. As you know, a great per-cent even of the modern words have origin from that language. On the other hand, the evidence that the language used by the antient Macedonian kings was close to the Greek are very little and weak, all written by Greek people. So, there is no neutral evidence on this.
::On the other hand, we use English now between us to comunicate, because English is dominant these days. Doesn't that give you any smart tought? [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 16:45, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
People interested in classic Greek can check [[Rosetta Stone]]. The majority of the words on the greek part of Rosetta Stone is used in modern Greek too.[[User:Matia.gr|MATIA]] 11:01, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
::Wrong... the majority of the words in the modern greek language have origin (are not the same) as the words in the old Greek languahe. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 16:45, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Mr Igor Sterbinski, you have once again entertained us with your ignorance. If you knew ''anything'' about the subject, you would know that all living languages change and evolve. Only dead languages stay the same. The Slavic language you speak today has changed from the language your Slav ancestors spoke, just as the Greek language of classical Athens had changed from the earlier Greek language of Homer. Furthermore, there was no such thing as a single uniform language called "Ancient Greek"; a multitude of different dialects and idioms were spoken across the length and breadth of the Greek world, all of which changed and evolved over time. The language spoken by the Greeks today is the Greek language as it has naturally evolved over the centuries. At the end of the day, the Greeks still speak ''Greek'', a continuation of the language the ancient Greeks, including the ancient Macedonians, spoke. ''That'' is our connection to the ancient Macedonians. What's yours?--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 17:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Firstable, Sterbinski is not here. As far as I know, he haven't posted anything for a while. Because of your text, it is obvious that you refer to me and not to Sterbinski, so I will try to answer.
::::The part that you are talking about the old and new Greek language... there we agree. The languages change. I told you that I personally can not judge about this subject. To be honest, I even don't care about this issue. That is your own language, Greek language. Not mine.
::::I only said what I was told. If you have some problem with that, I can tell you what I know about the guy, so you might try to find him. His name is Tim, he is about 50-55 years old and he teaches old Greek language at some college of the University of London. He is divorced, but has 3 kids. Little bold guy, not very tall. Almost completely white hair. We were in the same hotel for 10 days, so that is all I know about him. If you want to talk to him, try to find him. I repeat that I do not have any knowledge in this subject, I only know there are differences between the old and new Greek language. So I can not express my oppinion.
::::Concerning the Antique Macedonians, the whole idea of them speaking Greek is because of one book, written by a '''Greek''' person. And, even in that book just less couple of hundred words are mentioned.
::::The modern English has 1000s of words similar to the French ones, with French origin. That does not make the English to be French language.
::::And you do not mention the fact that the Antien Macedonians had a completely different culture than the Greeks. They got Hellenized after Alexander the Great, same as we got cristianized through the time (the Hellenic was clearly a culture, not ethnicity. A culture that was dominant in that time).
::::My connection with the Antique Macedonians... I would be stupid to claim if there is direct connection, same as there is no dirrect connection between '''any''' modern nation and antique people. But, one fact that is ignored, but well known... the modern Macedonians are only nation of so many in the area that are concentrated entirely and strictly in the region of Macedonia. No other nation is. And as far as I could see, I am not the first one who mentions this here.
::::This is not a claim that we only have origin from Antique Macedonians. I agree with some comments that I saw before on this page, that the modern Macedonians and modern Greeks have both origin from those people. Even the modern Bulgarians and probably modern Albanians can claim some little origin from the Antique Macedonians. But non of us can claim dirrect connection and exclusivity over the issue. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 18:42, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
:Interesting. I studied ancient Greek at university in an English-speaking country, and my ''Irish'' lecturer could understand modern Greek almost perfectly well, without ever having studied it formally. And it goes without saying that I had a huge (some would say unfair) advantage over the non-Greek students in my class. Most linguists would agree that Greek has changed astonishingly little over the past two thousand years, considering the huge time span involved. You're right that [[Hellenism]] is a civilisation, not an ethnicity in the narrow Balkan sense with which you're all too familiar. What you're completely unfamiliar with is the language of the ancient Macedonians. To say that there is only "one book" that claims they spoke Greek shows your ignorance, and I would suggest you read up before engaging in further discussion on the matter. Whether the ancient Macedonians were "Hellenized" or Greek from the beginning is irrelevant: they were Greek when and where it mattered, which is why Alexander and his successors spread the Greek language and culture throughout the Macedonian empire. Your implication that invaluable ancient sources like [[Herodotus]] or [[Hesychius of Alexandria]] should be ignored because they happened to be Greek is ridiculous and unworthy of serious consideration. As for your "special" geographic connection to the ancient Macedonians, you forget that the ancient kingdom of [[Macedon]] before Alexander's conquests was almost entirely contained within present-day [[Greek Macedonia]], while most of what is now the FYROM was [[Paionia]], ''not'' Macedonia. [[Skopje]], your capital city, was in [[Dardania]], which roughly corresponded to present-day [[Kosovo]]. If you were from [[Ohrid]] or [[Bitola]], your geographic claim would carry slightly more weight, even if these areas were only annexed to Macedon as late as Philip's reign. Still, I have a friend from [[Ohrid]] who says you ''Skopjani'' pejoratively call people from the south ''grkomani''. I wonder why. :)--[[User:Theathenae|Theathenae]] 19:49, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Please avoid misunderstanding me. I have no interest in the Greek language, I do not deny it, I do not claim anything connected to that issue. I heared something by someone which I beleived is well informed, considering his proffesion. But, again... I am completely neutral at this point. You Theathenae are Greek and I am sure that you know much more about the Greek language than I do. So, whatever you say about your own language, I '''won't''' deny it.
:::About the Antient Macedonians... it is true that Alexander spreaded the Hellenic (not Greek) culture and civilization between the Macedonians. And, we already agreed that Hellenic is culture, not ethnicity. And we agreed that it was dominant in that time. Actually, to be Hellenized ment to be civilised.
:::We both have our "proofs" that the antique Macedonians were or were not Greek. We both agree that in the time of Alexander the Great they started getting completely Hellenized, abandoning their original culture and customs.
:::To be honest, I do not care much about Alexander and his moves. I see him as one of the biggest murderers in the history of the world, which was motivated only by greed and his wish to become a god. Aldough I beleive that I have origin (more or less) from those people, Alexander will never be something that I would be proud of.
:::About the teritory of the Macedon Kingdom... you forget that till the Turkey-Greek exchange of population and the Greek civil war after the Greek Macedonia was not dominantly Greek. Actually, till the Balkan wars that teritory was never called Greek by anyone out of Greece. Not even a little part of that kingdom was a part of the original teritory of Greece which was till the beggining of the 20th century.
:::Again, my comment are '''not''' ment at any moment to deny your connection with the Antique Macedonians. As I already said, we both have it.
:::The non-sence that we call the people in south Macedonia "grkomani" is horible twisting of the truth. I never heard anything like that. And, my family has origin from Lerin (Florina) and Bitola. Actually half of the Macedonian population (in modern Macedonia or abroad) has origin from Greek Macedonia (Aegean Macedonia). Actually, the most common nickname in Macedonia is "Egeec". If you don't know what that means, ask you friend from Ohrid. To be honest, after the "grkomani" thing, I am not sure that that person even exist. If he really exist and he said that, I swear my kids that is not truth.
:::Here is a fact that you would be interested in... Many Macedonian weddings sometimes include 1-2 tipical Greek songs. And, we are all dancing on them, most often in original way, the way you do it. But that does not mean that we are "grkomani". We play English pop songs too, same as Serbian. But, that is only because we respect your Greek culture and we acnowledge the good and quality things that you have.
:::One more fact... Greek is in 5-6 most learned languages by people in the language schools here in Skopje. But, again that does not make us "grkomani". We also learn English, German, Spanish etc. Again, that is because we respect the Greek culture and we acnowledge the language. Also, anyone who knows Greek will always have advantage for getting a job in a Greek firm based in Macedonia. :) [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 09:38, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
===User [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] and NPOV===
You can NOT explain an article as a "NPOV" to express without characteristic proposals!
::[[User:Vergina|Vergina]] 13:49, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Vergina, this page is absolutely full of proposals from the Macedonian side. '''Not even one''' was accepted. Whenever a Macedonian makes some proposal, the Greeks are all together working on denying him. Most often without any valid grounds.
::::Even if we decide which version to put... just a week latter someone new can come and change everything we worked on. And, I am sure you won't revert him if his changes support the Greek POV.
::::Many discussions were already made and nothing changed. Why keep wasting time on that? We will never deal, because the history that I know and the history that you know are very different. And, they both have valid facts as a support.
::::So, I have to keep insisting for the NPOV tag. So any user who is interested about Macedonia issue will be advised to visit the talk page.
::::I am aware that the talk page contains a lot of bullshit, but it also has very interesting points from boths sides. So, any user who visits it will be aware that there are different POVS about the region. And any of those users can decide will he take sides or stay neutral. Important thing is that he will have a choise... And with this text on Macedonia page he do not have any choise except to accept the Greek side of the story as truth. [[User:62.162.198.232|62.162.198.232]] 17:27, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
ОК I'm macedonian,i don't consider my self lake that,i fell it.Ind i cant understand how population can be forsed to recognise it self as macedonian in The Bulgarian state after world warr II(when more than 250 000 macedonians expresed their free will) and latter stoped doing so.the forsification was before and after till today,it's logical.there are no puzzels to solve exept to axept the facts.
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