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<noinclude>{{Wikipedia:Reference desk/header|WP:RD/H}}
[[Category:Pages automatically checked for incorrect links]]
[[Category:Wikipedia resources for researchers]]
[[Category:Wikipedia help forums]]
[[Category:Wikipedia reference desk|Humanities]]
[[Category:Wikipedia help pages with dated sections]]
[[Category:Non-talk pages that are automatically signed]]</noinclude>
= August 14 =
== Fritz Derby Day and the Idylls of the King? ==
Watching the ''[[Upstairs, Downstairs (1971 TV series)|Upstairs, Downstairs]]'' episode [[The New Man (Upstairs, Downstairs)|The New Man]], and Lawrence Kirbridge, who perhaps was "not the marrying kind", rebukes his new wife [[Elizabeth Bellamy|Elizabeth]] for quoting her grandfather about carving meat. He says something like "your grandfather's notion of art is centred on Fritz Derby Day and Tennyson's "[[Idylls of the King]]". Like any English gentleman I am of course familiar with [[Tennyson]] and his Idylls. Fritz Derby Day on the other hand I do not know. Could anyone here help? Thank you, [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 21:56, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
:[[The Derby Day|Frith's Derby Day]] is a very interesting painting from a social history perspective, but I suppose if her grandfather liked it he wasn't showing great discernment since {{tq|it became so popular that a rail was needed to protect it from the thronging crowds}}. [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;"> Card Zero </span>]] [[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 22:07, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::Ah thank you! Not Fritz but Frith's :) I can't say I agree with the "if it's popular it isn't any good" judgment, but then the Frith I'm most familiar with is [[Francis Frith|Francis]], and as for [[Fritz]] then it's the Kaiser. I honestly thought "Derby Day" was my mishearing of some sort of foreign name like "D'Arby D'Ez", not the actual Epsonian event. Much appreciated. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 22:19, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Help me out with a small matter, then: do you see a "high-class prostitute in brown riding clothes is on the extreme left"? It looks to me like brown is an error for black. [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;"> Card Zero </span>]] [[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 22:26, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::::{{re|Card Zero}} With a white collar and looking across to her right? She is in black. To her right are a young woman in russet grasping the arm of her rosy-cheeked beau in a smock. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 22:53, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::Thanks, Ima change it. It's been like that since the article was created, but they didn't have the main image back then, only the preliminary sketch without prostitute, so no easy reference to catch the mistake I guess. [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;"> Card Zero </span>]] [[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 23:11, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::It is conceivable that inspection of the actual painting will show that what appears as black in this digital image is in fact a dark brown. One report that the colour is brown:
:::::::"Echoing her position, a well-known Horse woman called <u>Annie Gilbert</u>, in brown riding clothes is on the extreme left, one of many that could be seen each day riding in Rotten Row, Hyde Park."<sup>[https://www.shafe.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/TB-People-and-Places-in-the-Nineteenth-Century-Shafe-45-mins-2017-06.pdf], p. 41</sup>
:::::: ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 08:43, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::::That is almost exactly the article text, and the rest of the description matches the things mentioned by the article too. It's evidently the source, and it's the source of the error, so say I. Maybe I have to cite this source, and revert it to "brown", unless somebody wants to contact Laurence Shafe and get him to admit the clothes are black. Well ... this might be time to trot out the "according to" phrase. Or one of those <sup>[a]</sup> note things. [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;"> Card Zero </span>]] [[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 12:37, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::::The article by Shafe is dated July 2017, but mention of brown riding clothes on the extreme left were already present in the earliest revision of the Wikipedia article, created 28 January 2012. If Shafe is the source, it must have been through an earlier version of the text in the 45-minute tour now on the Web. It presumably also would mean our article may be a copyvio. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 21:50, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
::::How can we know the figure represents a courtesan (possibly even specifically [[Catherine Walters]])? Maybe this would have been obvious to a 19th-century observer, but for stating this as a fact in Wikipedia today it could do with a citation to a reliable source. In fact, there appears to be evidence that Frith depicted accomplished equestrian [[Annie Gilbert]] here,<sup>[https://rosiehharte.substack.com/p/tis-pity-shes-a-whore-or-is-she][https://susannaforrest.blog/page/4/][https://www.shafe.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/TB-People-and-Places-in-the-Nineteenth-Century-Shafe-45-mins-2017-06.pdf]</sup> who was also the model for [[Edwin Landseer]]'s ''[[:File:The Shrew Tamed.jpg|The Shrew Tamed]]''. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 08:30, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::The Laurence Shafe source says {{tq|Many such as Catherine ‘Skittles’ Walters, were courtesans but it appears Miss Gilbert was a horsewoman}}, so there's something funny about how the article has apparently copied nearly all of it but contradicts that part. Perhaps Shafe wrote otherwise in some previous description (or is copying from some other source) and changed his mind subsequently. Cans of worms, good grief. You try to change one simple obvious fact about a color ... [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;"> Card Zero </span>]] [[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 12:46, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::: The obvious question is: Are being a horsewoman and being a courtesan mutually exclusive? -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 18:42, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::::That's the point: Walters and her coterie were indeed both – from her article: "She was a part of the "pretty horsebreakers", a group of courtesans made famous by their remarkable horsemanship. Walters' skills in the saddle allowed her to mix easily with high society."
:::::::Gilbert was (presumably) not a courtesan, but she (allegedly) modelled for the painting by Albert Landseer which may have been intended to evoke Walters, whom Gilbert resembled, and which was taken by many actually to be a portrait of Walters. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/90.210.150.115|90.210.150.115]] ([[User talk:90.210.150.115|talk]]) 02:30, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
Who copied whom? Without access to a time machine, an article written in 2012 did not use a PDF dated 2017 as a source. ''Evidently''. If I ''had'' used a source, I would have noted it at the time, just like the other sources that I did use and note [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Derby_Day&oldid=473613621 at the time]. If you have the time and the inclination, you could perhaps just delete the whole useless outdated thing and write something better. [[User:Theramin|Theramin]] ([[User talk:Theramin|talk]]) 00:16, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
:The time mismatch was noticed already above; the [[Special:Diff/1306089535|edit summary]] was "2017 > 2012". But can you ([[User:Theramin|Theramin]]) explain the mention of <u>brown</u> riding clothes? [[:File:William Powell Frith - The Derby Day - Google Art Project.jpg]] had not been uploaded yet in 2012, nor AFAICS any other version showing a woman in riding clothes on the extreme left. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 07:42, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 16 =
== House of Stuart to House of Hanover? ==
I had a look at the articles about British monarchs on Wikipedia about which houses they came from. Apparently the [[House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha]] changed into the [[House of Windsor]] because the monarchs didn't want to sound German and just changed their name. Previously, the [[House of Hanover]] changed into the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha when [[Queen Victoria]] from the House of Hanover married [[Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha]]. But how and why did the [[House of Stuart]] change into the House of Hanover between [[Anne, Queen of Great Britain|Queen Anne]] and [[George I of Great Britain|George I]]? [[User:JIP|<span style="color: #CC0000;">J</span><span style="color: #00CC00;">I</span><span style="color: #0000CC;">P</span>]] | [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 11:22, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
:George I was related to the Stuarts through the female line. When a female member of the House of Stuart married any children would be members of the house of her husband. George was born in Hanover, and had his mother lived another 65 days she would have become Queen, and the House of Stuart would have changed into the House of Bohemia. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7C:F2D0:B700:CCF4:52B2:F721:4B9F|2A02:C7C:F2D0:B700:CCF4:52B2:F721:4B9F]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7C:F2D0:B700:CCF4:52B2:F721:4B9F|talk]]) 12:46, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for your answer. [[User:JIP|<span style="color: #CC0000;">J</span><span style="color: #00CC00;">I</span><span style="color: #0000CC;">P</span>]] | [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 14:48, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
:::The question of what to call the ruling house was raised in the 1950’s, when Queen Elizabeth II came to the throne: Should her family continue to use “Windsor” or should they follow older tradition and switch to “Battenberg” or “Mountbatten” (her husband’s house)? It was decided to continue with Windsor. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 15:26, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
: Our article says that Queen Victoria remained in the House of Hanover all her life, and the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha came into being only when Edward VII acceded to the throne on her death. The change was a ''result'' of Victoria's marriage to Prince Albert, but it did not ''come about'' immediately upon her marriage, but only on her death. -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 17:23, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 17 =
== Civil war Union unit called G. A. T. ==
In [[s:Index:Maurine and Other Poems.djvu|Maurine and Other Poems]] (1882) by [[Ella Wheeler Wilcox]], the poem "After the Battles Are Over" ([[s:Page:Maurine and Other Poems.djvu/179|here]] and on the following six pages), has a note that says: {{tq|Read at Re-union of the G. A. T., Madison, Wis., July 4, 1872}}. Anyone have an idea what G. A. T. stands for? I can't find anything that makes sense. Based on the poem it's probably some Union military unit. The poem also mentions various battles but I'm not sure if it's really intended to list battles that unit participated in. — [[User:Alien333|Alien]] [[User talk:Alien333|<b style="display:inline-block;line-height:100%;font-size:60%;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,#007,#077,#070);background-clip:text;color:transparent"> 3<br/>3 3</b>]] 18:22, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
:From [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_uMqAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA705#v=onepage&q&f=false this] it appears that she wrote the poem for a reunion of the Grand Army of the Tennessee, whatever that was. --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 19:54, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
::Oh, I see we have an article on the [[Army of the Tennessee]], which I imagine is the same thing. As an Englishman my ignorance on this subject is profound. --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 19:59, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Perhaps the name "Grand" was inspired by the [[Grand Army of the Republic]], and possibly referred to a Tennessee-specific chapter of it? (It's a fraternal organisation of Union veterans, so would make sense for a 1872 reunion.) — [[User:Alien333|Alien]] [[User talk:Alien333|<b style="display:inline-block;line-height:100%;font-size:60%;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,#007,#077,#070);background-clip:text;color:transparent"> 3<br/>3 3</b>]] 20:01, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Actually; [[:File:General_Grant's_tour_around_the_world%3B_(IA_generalgrantstou00hickiala).pdf]] and a few other historical accounts do mention a Grand Army of the Tennessee as a military unit, notably related to the [[Siege of Corinth]]. Given that page mentions how that siege involved three joined Union armies, including the Army of the Tennesee, I suspect that Grand Army of the Tennessee was the name for the group of the three of them.
:::What corroborates this is that when that pdf mentions a Grand Army of the Tennessee on page 27, it says it had 120,000 soldiers, which according to our article for the siege was the sum of the Union forces, whereas the Army of the Tennessee proper only had 50,000 men. Case closed, I suppose? Thanks for the help! — [[User:Alien333|Alien]] [[User talk:Alien333|<b style="display:inline-block;line-height:100%;font-size:60%;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,#007,#077,#070);background-clip:text;color:transparent"> 3<br/>3 3</b>]] 20:12, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
::::Interesting! I would have assumed a typo for "G.A.R." Never heard of the Grand Army of the Tennessee before. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 10:51, 18 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 18 =
== AU local council property = Crown property? ==
Imagine a piece of property owned by your average local council, e.g. a reserve or public library or council offices. Is it property of the Crown in right of whatever state you're in, even though it's not directly owned by the state, and does the answer vary from state to state? (Unless there's a relevant law already in place, the state government can't just sell off or repurpose the property in the way they could a police station; they'd have to get the council's permission, or abolish the council, or put a bill through state parliament permitting the action in question.) Obviously there's no Crown-in-right-of-the-City-of-Melbourne, Crown-in-right-of-the-City-of-Sydney, etc. but one one hand it seems odd to imagine that public property would not be owned by the Crown in some sense, whilst on the other hand I suppose there's a difference between property owned directly by the state and property owned by public entities that aren't the state. This grows out of [[Adverse possession#Overview by country]], which notes that adverse possession doesn't apply to Crown land in four states and has a much longer requirement than private land in the other two states; I'm unclear whether this is true of land owned by local governments or only of land owned directly by the state. Given the subject matter, I can't figure out how to search for the answer; my searches have left me wondering if council property is perhaps Crown-in-right-of-state property that the council manages, but I'm very unclear. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 10:50, 18 August 2025 (UTC)
:I would think that the offices of, say, Melbourne City Council, are not separable property but are part of the building in which they are located. In Melbourne this is [[Melbourne Town Hall]]. I suppose this building is the property of the City of Melbourne, not of its Council. I suspect that city councils, not only in Australia but in most jurisdictions, are not [[juridical person]]s that can themselves own property. Two or more persons (natural or legal) can be [[Concurrent estate|co-owners of property]], but I doubt such arrangements exist of property being co-owned by [[administrative division]]s at different levels, except in special cases by special arrangements. So, if I am correct, [[Victoria (state)|Victoria]] has no property right to Melbourne Town Hall, so the building is not Crown property. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 00:30, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
::Sorry for the confusion — at least here in Victoria, people say "the council" both when referring to the shire/city/borough and when referring to the group of elected officials who administer it, and that's what I meant. My local public library is owned and operated by "the council", even though the elected councillors don't participate in day-to-day operations. Whether here or in other states, do councils/LGAs actually own property, or do they merely administer it on behalf of the Crown-in-right of the state? I see your last sentence, but it sounds like you're not certain about your supposition. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 20:51, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
==
[https://realonline.imareal.sbg.ac.at/en/detail/nr-000706] That is apparently a medieval painting depicting an event that the article [[St. Vitus]] doesn't say anything about. Any idea who the artist is, and what was supposed to be happening? The pic has been circulating as a meme captioned "Guys, are you sure this is an MRI scan?" if of any interest. I pasted it into Tineye to find the museum page. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:D24C:4669:D137:D5D0|2601:644:8581:75B0:D24C:4669:D137:D5D0]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:D24C:4669:D137:D5D0|talk]]) 00:31, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:The relevant institute of the [[University of Salzburg|Salzburg University]] (the alma mater of [[Leopold Mozart]]) is located in Krems / Danube, some 100km west of Vienna. A link to contact this dependeance is given in your reference. [[User:Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM|Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM]] ([[User talk:Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM|talk]]) 07:05, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
: The realonline website you linked to has a tab with metadata containing most of the info you probably need: [https://realonline.imareal.sbg.ac.at/en/detail/nr-000706]. According to that, it's part of a winged altarpiece from the late 15th century, from [[Styria]], now located in Vienna, and the painter is identified as the "Master of the Legend of Saint Veit", which presumably means it's an anonymous artists associated with this particular piece as his main attested work. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 07:57, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:::I'd go further than "presumably". "Master of the <[[namepiece]]>", such as "[[Master of the Aachen Altar]]", "[[Master of the Legend of Saint Barbara]]", "[[Master of the Legend of the Magdalen]]", "[[Master of the Virgo inter Virgines]]", ..., is the standard way of coining a ''[[Notname]]'' for otherwise nameless makers of medieval artwork. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 14:18, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:: And here [https://books.google.ch/books?id=B0RxOatqGwoC&pg=PA371&dq=%22st+vitus%22+%22oven%22&hl=de&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi8i-LJtJaPAxXm6wIHHXGkJeUQ6AF6BAgFEAM#v=onepage&q=%22st%20vitus%22%20%22oven%22&f=false] is an English translation of the medieval legend of the martyrdom – in this text it's described as a "furnace" or an "oven" in which the saint was "standing". There are more frequent conventional depictions of the saint in medieval art where he is standing in a cauldron of what is supposedly hot oil, the version where it's more like a baker's oven may be particular to this one painting. <small>(In any case, he is reported to have survived it unharmed, so maybe it was an MRI scanner after all.)</small> [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:11, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:::The term used in the [http://www.liberius.net/livres/Selecta_martyrum_acta_(tomus_primus)_000000437.pdf Latin original] is ''[[wikt:clibanus|clibanus]]'', which is glossed as "1. earthenware or iron vessel for cooking bread; 2. oven, furnace." Considering its etymology (see {{serif|[[wikt:κρίβανος|κρίβανος]]}}), the depiction of the saint-to-be being slid into a tunnel-shaped oven like an oversized meatloaf seems more plausible than having him stand up in a cauldron. However, the depiction is possibly not fully true to the Latin text, which has him ''jactatus [...] in medium clibani instar maris fervescentis'' ("thrown into the middle of the furnace like a boiling sea"). This would require implausible aiming precision of the throwers, given the limited size of the furnace's orifice as depicted. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 15:00, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:A discussion of the piece is found [https://vgprovenienzforschung.volkskundemuseum.at/en/belvedere/ here]. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 14:22, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:The painting is also on the Commons: [[:File:Meister der Veitslegende - Martyrium des hl. Veit (Vorderseite), Christus vor Kaiphas (Rückseite) - 10886 - Belvedere.jpg]]. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 15:08, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
== Tikal–Calakmul wars ==
The article [[Tikal–Calakmul wars]] [[First Tikal–Calakmul War|and]] [[Second Tikal–Calakmul War|its]] [[Third Tikal–Calakmul War|derivatives]] raise my doubt. [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Tikal%E2%80%93Calakmul+War&btnG= I have not found any authoritative sources that claim that these wars took place]. more precisely, I did not find the statement that there were three wars that lasted a certain time. I checked the sources in the articles, they say that these were long-term conflicts, but no distinction was made. It looks like [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]] [[User:Двадцать четыре|Двадцать четыре]] ([[User talk:Двадцать четыре|talk]]) 17:31, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:It may be well be [[WP:OR]]. I haven't seen a good recent source with a synthesis on this topic. The sources in the article are mostly general ones that I don't think support the details of the article. The best sources I have handy are
:{{cite web|last=Guenter|first=Stanley|date=March 2002|title=UNDER A FALLING STAR:THE HIATUS AT TIKAL|url=https://www.academia.edu/download/62218714/Guenter_2002_-_MA_Hiatus_at_Tikal20200227-58118-1pu9otk.pdf|website = |___location=Bundoora, Victoria 3086 Australia|publisher=School of Archaeology, Faculty of Social Sciences, La Trobe University}}
:{{cite web |last=Boot |first=Eric |date=October 12, 2002 |title=THE LIFE AND TIMES OF B’ALAH CHAN K’AWIL OF MUTAL (DOS PILAS),ACCORDING TO DOS PILAS HIEROGLYPHIC STAIRWAY 2 |url=https://www.mesoweb.com/features/boot/DPLHS2.pdf |website= |___location=Rijswijk, the Netherlands |publisher=Mesoweb}}
:{{cite web |last=Boot |first=Eric |date=October 13, 2002 |title=THE DOS PILAS-TIKAL WARS FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF DOS PILAS HIEROGLYPHIC STAIRWAY 4 |url=https://www.mesoweb.com/features/boot/DPLHS4.pdf |website= |___location=Rijswijk, the Netherlands |publisher=Mesoweb |access-date=}} {{cite web |last=Guenter |first=Stanley |date=2003 |title=THE INSCRIPTIONS OF DOS PILAS ASSOCIATED WITH B’AJLAJ CHAN K’AWIIL |url=https://www.mesoweb.com/features/guenter/DosPilas.pdf |website= |___location= |publisher=Mesoweb}}
:{{cite book|last1= Martin|first1= Simon|last2 = Nikolai|first2 = Grube|date = March 25, 2008|title = Chronicle of the Maya Kings and Queens|___location= United Kingdom|publisher = WW Norton|isbn= 9780500287262|edition = 2nd}} [[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] ([[User talk:Eluchil404|talk]]) 00:47, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::As far as i understand, the only war clearly mentioned in the sources is the civil war in Tikal. But here too there is a question about the right of its existence, since everything can fit into the biography of [[Bʼalaj Chan Kʼawiil]]. [[User:Двадцать четыре|Двадцать четыре]] ([[User talk:Двадцать четыре|talk]]) 05:53, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Martin, Simon. ''Ancient Maya politics: a political anthropology of the Classic Period 150–900 CE''. Cambridge University Press, 2020. is another source to check. I don't have a hard copy and find it much more dense and theoretical when compared to the sources given above, even the technical ones from Mesoweb, but at least it's a modern synthesis not a 20-year-old virtually primary source. Chapter 9 is on Conflict and includes a case study of "War and Exile on the Stairways of Dos Pilas" which would be the conflicts in question. My understanding is that the battles in the articles are real; it's just the delineation of separate, numbered wars that is OR since the political situation is not always clear. I.e. was a cessation of fighting just an illusion based on incomplete records, a truce, an occupation, a usurpation by a rival king, in this case, scholars (or at least Stanley Guenter) have guesses but can't say for certain in light of an incomplete record. [[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] ([[User talk:Eluchil404|talk]]) 20:45, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Looking more closely at the articles themselves, it is clear that they reflect the basic analysis of Simon Martin rather than Stanley Guenter. I have a strong preference for Guenter's style and a mild one for his conclusions so I went to him first, but the idea of Tikal and Calakmul as two superpowers dominating late Classic politics like the USA and Soviet Union dominated the late twentieth century is fairly traceable to Martin, IMO. But I would argue that the pages you mentioned at the beginning are not a reasonable summary of his published work and are fairly read as OR synthesis based on Martin and Grube 2000 (the cited source) and maybe some (uncited) popular science write-ups or unpublished conference presentations. I won't format most of these links to avoid cluttering up the page.
:::[https://www.mesoweb.com/articles/martin/SiteQ.pdf Site Q: The Case for a Classic Maya Super-Polity]
:::[https://www.mesoweb.com/articles/martin/Macro-Politics.pdf Evidence for Macro-Political Organization Amongst Classic Maya Lowland States]
:::MARTIN, S., and N. GRUBE. "Maya superstates." Archaeology 48, no. 6 (1995): 41-46.
:::[https://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/RT10/StarWar.pdf Tikal's "Star War" Against Naranjo]
:::[https://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/journal/201/DoubleBird.pdf Unmasking "Double Bird", Ruler of Tikal]
:::[https://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/journal/201/DoubleBird.pdf Caracol Altar 21 Revisited: More Data on Double Bird and Tikal's Wars of the Mid-Sixth Century]
:::Martin, Simon. ''Ancient Maya politics: a political anthropology of the Classic Period 150–900 CE''. Cambridge University Press, 2020.
:::[[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] ([[User talk:Eluchil404|talk]]) 00:26, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
::::No one denies these conflicts, but such a specific selection in the articles is very similar to the original research. Even if there is something in this source, it is not enough. These wars can be moved to articles on the history of cities, biographies and others. Separate articles are superfluous [[User:Двадцать четыре|Двадцать четыре]] ([[User talk:Двадцать четыре|talk]]) 09:36, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
===Subsidiary question===
What kind of sources exist for pre-Columbian Mayan politics? Obviously we have some written records that are secondary sources, but what about primary written records? Would archaeological artefacts (without inscriptions) be able to yield much information on the question? [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 02:46, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
:Of the presumably many thousands of pre-Columbian [[Mayan codices|Mayan manuscripts]], only four have survived the destruction campaign waged by [[Diego de Landa]]. None cover political events or themes. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 12:41, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
::There are also surviving monumental inscriptions, though we don't seem to have an overview-style article on them. Mentioned [[Mesoamerican_literature#Monumental_Inscriptions|here]] and we have some decent articles on the individual sites, such as [[Yaxchilan]]. The quantity, quality, and nature of such inscriptions is sufficient that our article at [[Palenque]] has a list of rulers stretching back hundreds of years. [[User:Matt Deres|Matt Deres]] ([[User talk:Matt Deres|talk]]) 14:11, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
: Modern sources, like those I linked above are based on are based an ancient inscriptions, mostly on stone stelae, but one article is based on a wooden lintel and there exists a few inscriptions in stucco or on pottery. Inferring political facts from material culture is notoriously difficult. For instance, in the Early Classic Period many Maya cites show Teotihuacano style architecture or pottery in at least some areas, is this because they were conquered by Teotihuacan, allied with it, or simply copying a popular trend? The first interpretation is currently favored (while at one time it was mostly rejected as improbable) based on inscriptional evidence. [https://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/news_archive/25/strangers/strangers.html The Arrival of Strangers] [[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] ([[User talk:Eluchil404|talk]]) 20:36, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
:The inscriptional evidence is pretty extensive, because the Classic-period Maya erected stelae to commemorate an awful lot of events in their reigns, especially calendrical ceremonies and victories in battle. In some cases, kings' lives can be followed down to their dates of birth. But the record for most of the city-states has major gaps in some periods, and a lot of phenomena beyond the dry event-and-date stuff, like the nature of the relationship between the Maya city-states and Teotihuacan as Eluchil mentions, are not directly discussed in the record and thus very open to interpretation. [[User:A. Parrot|A. Parrot]] ([[User talk:A. Parrot|talk]]) 16:56, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 20 =
==
I just finished ''[[Jeremiah Johnson (film)|Jeremiah Johnson]]'' on DVD. The [[Crow people]] are depicted as scalping the Europeans and killing Johnson's (Robert Redford's) Flathead wife and mute son Caleb. Can anyone with familiarity with the film attest to its historical accuracy? I looked in the Crow article and searched for "scalp" but could only find the Crows being victims of scalping at the hands of the [[Piegan Blackfeet]] (and scalping isn't mentioned in their article either despite the photo). Any help? Also were the Flatheads really Christianized? [[User:Therapyisgood|Therapyisgood]] ([[User talk:Therapyisgood|talk]]) 04:55, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:[https://books.google.com/books?id=fxPmEAAAQBAJ&pg=PR48&dq=Crows%7c%22Crow+people%22+scalp&hl=en Here] two Dakota pictographs (the bottom left two in the plate on the preceding page) are interpreted as "Crows scalped an Oglála boy alive" and "Some Crows came to their camp and scalped a boy". I cannot vouch for the veracity of the account or the accuracy of its interpretation, but it establishes that the Crow people have at least a historical reputation of engaging in scalping. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 13:06, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:Here are more historical references: [https://books.google.com/books?id=m7RcAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA337&dq=Crows+%22obtained+three+scalps%22&hl=en], [https://books.google.com/books?id=HGcOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA318&dq=Crows+%22ripped+off%22+%22his+scalp%22&hl=en], [https://books.google.com/books?id=zE9VSqcbA0IC&pg=PA451&dq=Crows+%22scalp+dances%22&hl=en]. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 12:25, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 22 =
== obituary ==
why did you not have an obit for Bill Moyers? having donated to you for a while this truly has me upset as you will post obits for lesser known or less important people [[Special:Contributions/50.35.131.62|50.35.131.62]] ([[User talk:50.35.131.62|talk]]) 20:53, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
:Are you talking about the recent deaths section on the main page? If so, the simple answer is because nobody nominated the article at [[Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates|in the news]]. I think it might be a little late for [[Bill Moyers]] now, but in the future, feel free to nominate an article if you think it should be on there. [[User:MediaKyle|MediaKyle]] ([[User talk:MediaKyle|talk]]) 21:31, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
::It looks like it was nominated, but the article had unresolved quality concerns at the time: [[Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/June 2025#RD: Bill Moyers]]. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 22:30, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
:Are you mistaking us for another organization? We here are the reference desk of an encyclopedia and never post obituaries. The "In the News" section of the [[WP:Main Page|Main Page]] of Wikipedia may note the death of a celebrity, like right now that of astronaut [[Jim Lovell]], but this is typically a brief sentence, not an obituary. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 21:32, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
:The 'In the News' section is not meant to function as a news ''report'', i.e. to be people's first alert to events: it is intended to point to particularly good ''articles'' that are about subjects which are receiving current news reports elsewhere for some reason; ''sometimes'' that may be because the subject is a person who has just died.
:The size of the section is limited and there are always more candidate articles (about recently deceased people and many other types of subjects) than can be accommodated; there is a formal procedure (which MediaKyle linked above) for nominating and considering candidates. If (as in this case) a person's article is not as good as it might be, it will not make the cut – this is a reflection on the quality ''of the article'' at that time, not of the worthiness of the person the article is about. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/90.210.150.115|90.210.150.115]] ([[User talk:90.210.150.115|talk]]) 07:42, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
:I find your mention of past donations to be somewhat problematic. Your having given Wikipedia or the Wikimedia foundation money does not mean that you get control over what we do or do not publish. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 23:07, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
::From time to time, a user will make this type of complaint, and of course there's no way to verify it. Take it as a bluff. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 01:51, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:::That's good to know. I was so scared they might be serious. Now I can sleep again. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 02:41, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 23 =
== securities regulations ==
I’m curious about instances where investment securities regulations though well established on paper, prove inefficient in practice, sometimes even working against their intended purpose. [[User:Grotesquetruth|Grotesquetruth]] ([[User talk:Grotesquetruth|talk]]) 16:53, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
:Maybe start with this [[Regulatory capture]] article. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> [[User:Abductive|<span style="color: teal;">'''Abductive'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Abductive|reasoning]])</span> 13:17, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 24 =
==
Is there any other country where school year starts typically already in first half of August? In Finland, it started on 7 August. This was its earliest possible date. In 2026, it will be on 13 August. Had the school year already started by 7 August this year in any other country? The school year will end on 30 May in 2026 and 5 June in 2027. In which countries does the school year start already in August? When does it usually start in US and Canada? --[[User:40bus|40bus]] ([[User talk:40bus|talk]]) 21:18, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:Ah you're back again. Have you tried google? It's a search engine available at google.com. You might find it useful. [[User:Nanonic|Nanonic]] ([[User talk:Nanonic|talk]]) 21:31, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
::Aren't slightly harder questions like this one what the ReferenceDesk is for? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:58, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Feel free to humour them, they'll be back again shortly with more. [[User:Nanonic|Nanonic]] ([[User talk:Nanonic|talk]]) 10:33, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:there is no simple answer for the US. Public education is a state resposibility, but it is handled at the county (or even city) level. In my county (population approx. 160,000) there are 3 school systems. One has already started and 2 start tomorrow. And surrounding counties are different. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 21:37, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:Answer from the Netherlands: The country is divided into 3 regions, north, middle and south, with school holidays staggered. This is to spread the load on the tourist industry. Most (by far) tourists in the Netherlands (except within a 20 km radius around Amsterdam) are domestic. It also helps a bit to spread the load on long distance transport. I think this division into 3 regions is common in Europe, although the regions may be more random and discontinuous.
:One region ends the school year on the first Friday after 2 July, the other regions one and two weeks later. The next school year begins on the Monday 45 days later, so the earliest possible start date is 17 August, the last 6 September. Each year, either the early and middle or the middle and late regions swap, stretching or shrinking the school year by one week. This can be compensated for using the other holidays. There're some voices to shorten the summer holiday to 5 or 4 weeks, but there're economic reasons against it.
:These are only guidelines from the national government; schools may deviate. Deviations are uncommon, except for some regulars. For example, in most of the south and some of the middle, the spring holiday is shifted to coincide with Carnival. [[User:PiusImpavidus|PiusImpavidus]] ([[User talk:PiusImpavidus|talk]]) 10:30, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::A few jurisdictions here in Canada have adopted a continuous school year [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/education-balanced-calendar-year-round-1.7267038], without a long summer break (it's reduced to one month instead of the usual two to two-and-a-half months), but with more and longer breaks during the school year to compensate. This results in the start of the new school year falling in early August. There's an article on the practice in the US, at [[Year-round school in the United States]]. [[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]] ([[User talk:Xuxl|talk]]) 14:47, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Why go to Google when we have Wikipedia? [[Academic year]] [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C7:2B14:A201:C078:6524:CE5C:D86|2A00:23C7:2B14:A201:C078:6524:CE5C:D86]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C7:2B14:A201:C078:6524:CE5C:D86|talk]]) 18:16, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
== World War I dogfight before 5 October 1914 ==
currently at DYK we have [[Aerial combat of 5 October 1914]], where the proposed hook would be "... that the first "dogfight" of World War I took place on 5 October 1914 in France?" does anyone know of a WWI dogfight prior to this? thank you. [[User:Therapyisgood|Therapyisgood]] ([[User talk:Therapyisgood|talk]]) 21:32, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:Our article [[Miodrag Tomić]] describes an earlier hostile aerial encounter as follows: "On 15 August, Tomić encountered an enemy plane while conducting a reconnaissance flight over Austria-Hungary. The Austro-Hungarian aviator initially waved at Tomić, who waved back. The enemy pilot then took a revolver and began shooting at Tomić's plane. Tomić produced a pistol of his own and fired back." But this does not fit the notion of a dogfight. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 00:21, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::"A dogfight, or dog fight, is an aerial battle between fighter aircraft that is conducted at close range." (from our own article) How does that definition not apply to the circumstance you described? Seems like a perfect fit to me. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 11:44, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:::In a dogfight, the airplanes are fitted with weapons designed for that purpose (taking out an enemy plane in flight); it's not the pilots pulling out a personal piece. [[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]] ([[User talk:Xuxl|talk]]) 14:50, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::::Says who? --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 15:11, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Wiktionary defines the metaphorical sense of ''[[wikt:dogfight|dogfight]]'' as: "A twisting turning battle between two or more military aircraft, especially between fighters." Like angry dogs, they keep coming at each other. The 15 August 1914 encounter between a Serbian and an Austro-Hungarian military plane, as related, involved no twisting or turning; it was a relatively straight-forward business. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 02:29, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
==
[[File:Hitler Mannerheim Ryti.jpg|thumb|right|Adolf Hitler on a surprise visit to Finland with Commander-in-chief Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim and President of Finland Risto Ryti.]]
The Führer of Germany [[Adolf Hitler]] paid a surprise visit to Finland to visit the Commander-in-chief of the Finnish Defence Forces [[Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim]] on Mannerheim's 75th birthday. Shown here is a photograph of them with [[Wilhelm Keitel]] on the extreme left, Hitler and Mannerheim in the centre, and Ryti on the right. Does anyone know who is the guy immediately to the right of Mannerheim, with Mannerheim's nose pointing to his cap? [[User:JIP|<span style="color: #CC0000;">J</span><span style="color: #00CC00;">I</span><span style="color: #0000CC;">P</span>]] | [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 23:11, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:It looks like the Finnish Pilot Qualification Badge (lentomerkki) on his left breast (swastika surrounded by stylised wings, surmounted by a crown). [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 00:13, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::This insignia is the second image in the gallery in the section {{section link|Western use of the swastika in the early 20th century#Finland}}. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 00:26, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:Could it be [[:fi:Yrjö Könni|Yrjö Könni]]? At the time the photo was taken Könni's rank would have been [[major]]. He looks older than on the undated photo [https://www.konninsuku.fi/aineistoaitta/kuvamuistoja/historiakuvia/ here], where he has fewer decorations and no brass on his collar but is also wearing the ''lentomerkki'' on his left breast. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 00:45, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::I think it is [[Einar Mäkinen]]--[[User:Fornax|Fornax]] ([[User talk:Fornax|talk]]) 09:25, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Was he ever a pilot or in the air force? The chap in the question photo has air force shoulder boards (wings above lion). [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 15:25, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
::::More specifically, I find no indication that Mäkinen was awarded the ''lentomerkki'', something that would have been notable enough to record in his [[:fi:Einar Mäkinen|Finnish Wikipedia article]]. The person in the 1942 photo above has striking eyes, set back in a gaunt physiognomy below dark eyebrows, which I see reflected in the photos of young Könni. I see nothing similar in photos of Mäkinen, such as [https://www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/6ba692d4-b755-45e0-9181-5dace9a4e189 here] or, more ''en face'', [https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/636441368 here]. On neither photo is he wearing the ''lentomerkki''. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 12:50, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 25 =
== [[Redaction (editorial synthesis)]] ==
I really want to fill out the above article, whose subject is a huge part of the reason texts from antiquity like the Bible, Zhuangzi, Gilgamesh, Upanishads are so fascinating and otherworldly. On the other hand, it dawns on me that literary redaction is just about the closest mode of operation the ancient world had to Wikipedia editing {{smiley}}.
Problem is, I'm certain because I hear scholars talk about how much they've learned about how ancient scribes and scribal institutions worked with and redacted texts, but I can't find any of it, at least in the general sense I expect from typing "redaction" into Google Scholar. Does anyone know where such a treatment of literary redactors and redaction is, or anything remotely like that? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff"> 🌈 </span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 12:16, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
== Need for synchronisation gear ==
Train of thought from the dogfighting discussion above...As far as I can remember reading, all First World War aircraft with rigid-mounted guns (i.e. you aim them by pointing the plane) had the guns in front of the pilot, thus necessitating the invention of a [[synchronisation gear]] to avoid shooting off the propellors. Did nobody attempt to mount guns on the wings (i.e. beyond the reach of the propellors), and if so, why not? Were the wood-and-fabric wings typical of the period simply too flimsy to permit this, or was there some other reason, or did this get attempted and I'm just unaware of it? [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 19:45, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:Early machine guns were crap and jammed a lot, some pilots were issued with a mallet to give the breech a whack to try to fix this. As well as that, the good guns ony had so much ammo until they needed to be reloaded - lewis guns only had 90 or so rounds in each drum. And yes the weight of the guns and the ammo was a bit much for the frames at the time. Some considered slinging a gun under the fuselage instead, keeping the centre of gravity/balance and therefore potentially avoiding the need for a sync gear (if low slung enough) but that wouldn't have negated the jamming/reloading issues. [[User:Nanonic|Nanonic]] ([[User talk:Nanonic|talk]]) 20:00, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::Wing-mounted guns also need to be [[Gun harmonisation|harmonised]], and that was a fertile area for disagreement. That article also mentions problems with flexing of the wings, which would of course have been greater on the earlier, wood and string, airframes. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 23:14, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Wow, I've never heard of harmonisation. I just assumed that wing-mounted guns would always fire straight ahead, so you had a better chance of hitting something, even if your fuselage were slightly misaimed. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 01:35, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
::If weight is the worst problem of the guns, it's best to mount them on the wings. After all, the aeroplane is carried by its wings. That's why most airliners have their engines there. If the main problem is recoil, mount the guns on the engine, as that has the most mass. If flexing of the aeroplane is the worst problem, the engine is again the best place to put the guns. The spinning propeller ([[rotary engine|in some cases]] even the spinning engine block) acts as a gyroscope. A low centre of mass is nice for ground handling, but doesn't really matter in air. Putting the heavy guns on the wings increases the aeroplane's moment of inertia, reducing manoeuvrability.
::There are different solutions to the problem, like twin engines or pusher propellers. Or shoot through a hollow propeller shaft. You need a geared engine, as you can't shoot through a hollow crank shaft. I suppose people tried most of these solutions. [[User:PiusImpavidus|PiusImpavidus]] ([[User talk:PiusImpavidus|talk]]) 10:50, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
:@[[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] Re: "to mount guns ''on'' the wings" -> [[Royal Aircraft Factory S.E.5]] -> [[Foster mounting]] <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/91.221.58.22|91.221.58.22]] ([[User talk:91.221.58.22#top|talk]]) 06:02, 26 August 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Wing guns slow the aircraft roll rate because mass is farther from the centerline. To improve roll rate, Soviet pilots often removed the two wing guns from their P-39 Airacobras, retaining the two fuselage guns and the central cannon. This also lightened the aircraft for better range. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 15:08, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
:::[[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] (apologies for coming late to the party); as far as British design was concerned, there was an RAF requirement for guns to be within the reach of the pilot, so that any stoppages could be cleared (as mentioned above). This dictum was only abandoned in 1930 with an [[List_of_Air_Ministry_specifications#1930–1939|Air Ministry Specification]] for a four-gun fighter, resulting in the [[Gloster Gladiator]] biplane which finally entered service in 1937 and had two [[Vickers machine gun]]s in the fuselage and two [[Lewis guns]] in the wings. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 11:39, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
==Commission of investigation into Blanton Winship/Ponce Massacre==
Some time after the massacre there was an investigation headed by Arthur Garfield Hays, as I understand it a founder, chair and counsel of the ACLU. After a little research it seems that this was set up by Puerto Rico civil society (at least one source said it was under the aegis of the US govt) and Hays and the ACLU were invited to join/assist/head the Commission of Inquiry into the Causes of the Ponce Massacre. I'm primarily looking for the text of the report, but would also be interested in other documents - Winship's press releases and Pérez-Marchand's (the DA) reports to Winship. All the best: ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]''<small> 23:03, 25 August 2025 (UTC).</small><br />
:Our article [[Ponce massacre]] wrongly said the report was by the [[United States Commission on Civil Rights]] and led by Hays, but as he died three years before the Commission came in to being that was obviously impossible. Anyway, [https://lawcat.berkeley.edu/record/183738?ln=en Here] is the "Report of the Commission of Inquiry on Civil Rights in Puerto Rico, May 22, 1937", you will need Berkeley Library access, I suggest asking at [[WP:RX]], and [https://digitalcollections.wesleyan.edu/_flysystem/fedora/2023-03/22428-Original%20File.pdf here] is a BA thesis which will be of interest and contain pointers for further research. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 23:44, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 26 =
== [[United States House Select Committee on Assassinations|House Committee on Assassinations]] hearings films ==
Such as [https://www.wpafilmlibrary.com/clips?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keyword=alexander+eist&x=0&y=0 these], from 1978. They appear to be timestamped "WPA", but I don't know who they are. I guess the question is, is the filming by a private media corp or a government employee? Thanks! [[User:Fortuna imperatrix mundi|<span style="color:black">'''—'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Fortuna imperatrix mundi|<span style="color:black">''Fortuna''</span>]], [[User talk:Fortuna imperatrix mundi|<span style="color:#8B0000">imperatrix</span>]] 15:02, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
:The website you linked is wpafilmlibrary.com. The homepage says {{tq|Formerly WPA Film Library}}. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 00:03, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks. Which still doesn't clarify who made the film in the first place... [[User:Fortuna imperatrix mundi|<span style="color:black">'''—'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Fortuna imperatrix mundi|<span style="color:black">''Fortuna''</span>]], [[User talk:Fortuna imperatrix mundi|<span style="color:#8B0000">imperatrix</span>]] 10:07, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
:::That would have just a few months before [[C-SPAN]] started, which means it would have been the "media pool". [[User:Jpgordon|--jpgordon]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Jpgordon|𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇]]</small></sup> 15:02, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
::::Thanks, {{u|Jpgordon}}, so basically: not a "US government official as part of his duties", which would otherwise make it out of copyright, but it's not? [[User:Fortuna imperatrix mundi|<span style="color:black">'''—'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Fortuna imperatrix mundi|<span style="color:black">''Fortuna''</span>]], [[User talk:Fortuna imperatrix mundi|<span style="color:#8B0000">imperatrix</span>]] 17:22, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::{{tqb| Archives of WETA-TV{{pb}}<ul><li>This collection features extensive coverage of American politics, particularly in the 1980s and early 2000s, from the Washington-area PBS affiliate.</li><li>Thousands of hours of Congressional Hearings: Watergate, Whitewater, Iran-Contra, JFK Assassination, Church Committee, Supreme Court Justice nominations, and more.|source=[https://www.wpafilmlibrary.com/about About MPI Stock Footage Archive]}}</li></ul>So it depends on whether [[WETA-TV]] counts. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 17:53, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
== Keble or Newman? ==
In Chapter IV of ''[[The Lost Stradivarius]]'' (1895), Gaskell mentions "some beautiful verses by Mr Keble":
<blockquote>
Cease, stranger, cease those witching notes,<br>
The art of syren choirs;<br>
Hush the seductive voice that floats<br>
Across the trembling wires.<br>
<br>
Music's ethereal power was given<br>
Not to dissolve our clay,<br>
But draw Promethean beams from heaven<br>
To purge the dross away<br>
</blockquote>
I can't find the original of these, but I have seen them attributed online (vaguely, no title, date, or volume mentioned) to [[John Henry Newman]], not [[John Keble]]. So, were they Keble or were they Newman, or were they someone else entirely, and what is their title and where and when did they first appear? Thank you, [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 19:59, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
:'''Siren Isles''' published [https://books.google.com/books?id=BO8_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA51&dq=%22draw+promethean%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjyoZX6tqmPAxVmN2IAHWMpKyUQ6AF6BAgLEAM#v=onepage&q=%22draw%20promethean%22&f=false here] in 1836. I can't make out the writer's signature's name, but it is rather too long to be Keble <s>and differs from Newman's</s>. [[User:Modocc|Modocc]] ([[User talk:Modocc|talk]]) 22:03, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
::Ah, thank you. The volume is ''Lyra Apostolica'', which Oxford Reference tells me is "A collection of 179 sacred poems, published 1836, contributed originally to the British Magazine. The poems appeared anonymously; the six authors, all associated with the Oxford Movement, were each designated by a Greek letter: J. W. Bowden (α), R. H. Froude (β), Keble (γ), Newman (δ), R. I. Wilberforce (ε), and I. Williams (ζ)". And the poem has a δ, so Newman it is. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 22:25, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Yep, I found them on [https://search.worldcat.org/title/499371873 WorldCat] too. [[User:Modocc|Modocc]] ([[User talk:Modocc|talk]]) 22:32, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 27 =
== Eckland ==
I was watching a video on Youtube called "Die Deutschen im Eckland – Die deutsche Geschichte Pokutiens!". My German is not that great but apparently, according to the content of this video, "Eckland" should be an alternate historical German name for the region called [[Pokuttia]]. I wasn't able to find any proof of it anywhere. Do you have any idea? [[Special:Contributions/80.180.16.18|80.180.16.18]] ([[User talk:80.180.16.18|talk]]) 07:07, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
:''Ecke'' is German for "corner" or "nook", so it may be a whimsical reference to the place's ___location (geographical or metaphorical), an unofficial nickname, or just a translation by the video makers of the Slavic ''Pokuttia'' (which the article translates as as "round the corner") rather than any actual historically used name. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/90.210.150.115|90.210.150.115]] ([[User talk:90.210.150.115|talk]]) 07:47, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
:It is a joke, not a real name. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/91.221.59.26|91.221.59.26]] ([[User talk:91.221.59.26#top|talk]]) 10:03, 27 August 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:: But sometimes these sorts of things are real names, not jokes. See [[Name of Ukraine]]. -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 21:07, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
::It seems that the author of the video considers it a real German exonym, not just an unofficial translation to convey its meaning. In the description of the video he wrote: ''"In der Landschaft, die im deutschen auch Eckland genannt wird, lebten sowohl in Städten wie Stanislau, als auch auf dem Land deutsche Siedler"'' ("In the region, which is also called Eckland in German, German settlers lived both in cities like Stanislau and in the countryside"). It could potentially be like the situation of [[Bucovina]] which has a straightforward German version (''Bukowina'') and an alternate historical German adaptation (''Buchenland''). Another example is [[Transylvania]], with both ''Transsilvanien'' and ''Siebenbürgen''. --[[Special:Contributions/80.180.16.18|80.180.16.18]] ([[User talk:80.180.16.18|talk]]) 08:09, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
== The paths of ill ==
In Chapter X of [[J. Meade Falkner]]'s ''[[The Lost Stradivarius]]'' (1895), Sophia Maltravers recalls "a little piece of poetry which I learnt as a girl":
<blockquote>
How easy are the paths of ill;<br>
How steep and hard the upward ways;<br>
A child can roll the stone downhill<br>
That breaks a giant's hand to raise.
</blockquote>
As before, can we identify the original? Google returns only ''The Lost Stradivarius''. Thank you, [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 23:42, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
:Falkner wrote "down hill" as two words. It is possible that Falkner created this little rhyme himself, choosing to present it as a longtime poem for the sake of the narrative. The lack of other search results makes this plausible. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 12:17, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
::That seems probable. The phrase "upward way" appears in a few Victorian tracts and in [https://hymnary.org/text/im_pressing_on_the_upward_way this hymn]. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 13:01, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 28 =
== Misnamed political entities ==
It's known that the Nazis definitely weren't socialists, and that North Korea is not democratic at all. Can you think of more examples? [[User:Matt714931|Matt714931]] ([[User talk:Matt714931|talk]]) 03:23, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
:[[Liberal Party of Australia|Australia's Liberal Party]] is the far more right wing of Australia's two major parties. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/HiLo48|contribs]]) 03:31, 28 August 2025 (UTC)</small>
::Being European, this doesn't seem like a case of misnaming at all. Is Australia following the American concept of "liberal" or the continental? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/91.221.58.22|91.221.58.22]] ([[User talk:91.221.58.22#top|talk]]) 07:53, 28 August 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::The pre-war National Socialists certainly had some socialist policies, such as [[German Labour Front|goverment direction of labour]], [[Strength Through Joy|free or subsidised holidays and sports facilities for workers]] and government control of food prices. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 11:12, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
::::But, when the [[National Socialist German Workers' Party]] was founded, the term ''socialism'' was generally understood to mean advocacy of the ownership and control of the means of production by society as a whole. The Nazis embraced the private ownership of capital and (as a forerunner of [[neoliberalism]]?) even transferred public ownership into the private sector. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 11:59, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::That's true, but more driven by pragmatism than dogma. They despised capitalism but saw businesses as a useful tool in building the ''[[Volksgemeinschaft]]'' or "people's community" that was central to their ideology. It's a much debated point.
:::::An interesting article on the subject is [https://fee.org/articles/were-the-nazis-really-socialists-it-depends-on-how-you-define-socialism/ ''Were the Nazis really Socialists? It depends on how you define socialism'']. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 12:56, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
:If you hear that a party is named the [[People's Party for Freedom and Democracy]], you'd never guess the policies they actually pursue: <s>power</s> wealth to the people, provided that these people are already rich. Even worse is the [[Party for Freedom]], which stands for the freedom to take away the rights of [[Other (philosophy)#Racism|"the other"]]. And then there is the decidedly antidemocratic [[Forum for Democracy]].
:Turkey has a party that styles itself as the [[AK Parti]], which literally means the "HONEST Party". Their favourite pastime is throwing people who are alleged to have supported protests to their policies for lifetime in jail; see e.g. [[Osman Kavala]]. Another party is the [[İYİ Parti]], the "GOOD Party", which implies a dramatic redefinition of the term ''good''. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 11:48, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
:::<small>You've got me worried. Is it possible then that [[Your Party (UK)|Your Party]] ''doesn't'' belong to me? --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 16:59, 28 August 2025 (UTC)</small>
::It is important to remember that the Nazi party existed before the rise of Hitler… and that ''originally'' it was anti-big business and anti-capitalist… closer to what we would ''today'' call “socialism”. The NAZI party of the 1920s had different goals and policies than it did just ten years later in the 1930s when Hitler came to power.
::It is also important to remember that political terms change their meaning over time. Teddy Roosevelt was called a “progressive” in his day, but his policies were not at all those of modern “progressives”. The “right wing” in the French Revolution isn’t the same as the modern “right wing”. We should not apply the modern definition of “socialism” to the politics that existed in Europe over 100 years ago. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 14:01, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
::That Party for Freedom isn't really a party either. It's a one-man-show with some puppets on strings. [[User:PiusImpavidus|PiusImpavidus]] ([[User talk:PiusImpavidus|talk]]) 18:45, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
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