Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Murcian Spanish: Difference between revisions

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===Murcian (Murciano)Spanish (18 support; 8 oppose)=Wikipedia==
{{ls-header|old|This discussion was created before the implementation of the [[Meta:Language proposal policy|Language proposal policy]], and it is incompatible with the policy. Please open a new proposal in the format this page has been converted to (see the [[Meta:Language proposal policy|instructions]]). Do not copy discussion wholesale, although you are free to link to it or summarise it (feel free to copy your own comments over). —<small>{[[Meta:Admins|admin]]} [[User talk:Pathoschild/s|Pathoschild]] 02:03:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)</small>}}
{{New language proposal
|language = [[w:Murcian Spanish|Murcian Spanish]] ([''[[WM:LPP|no code]]''])
|community = [[ca:User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] ('''P''')
|links = —
|external = —
}}
 
# '''Support'''--[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 05:38, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
*People interested [if native speaker, please mark (N)]:(N)
*:# '''Support'''--[[caoc:User:Assarbe Pasha|AssarbePasha]] 1716:3301, 1023 August 2005 (UTC) (N).
**# '''Support'''--[[es:User:MartorellAlba|JoanotAlba]] 0519:3801, 1131 August 2005 (UTC)
**# '''Support'''--[[occa:User: PashaGuardamarenc|PashaGuardamarenc]] 1613:0116, 231 AugustSeptember 2005 (UTC)
**# '''Support'''--[[oc:User: TodmirCharlitos|TodmirCharlitos]] 1317:4404, 315 AugustOctober 2005 (UTC) ('''N''')
**# '''Support'''--[[es:User:AlbaOrhan_akademi|AlbaOrhan_akademi]] 1910:0133, 3124 AugustOctober 2005 (UTC) ('''(real username, but 0 edits)N''')
**# '''Support'''--[[es:User:MangasLiza|MangasLiza]] 1923:0236, 3113 AugustNovember 2005 (UTC) ('''N''')
**# '''Support'''--[[ca:User:GuardamarencILVI|GuardamarencILVI]] 1301:1655, 114 SeptemberNovember 2005 (UTC)
**# '''Support'''--[[es:User:GranayOroBuzkid|GranayOroBuzkid]] 1423:2553, 115 SeptemberNovember 2005 (NUTC)
**# '''Support'''--[[es:User:Foro-FicoAlquerias Llibre|Foro-FicoAlquerias Llibre]] 1402:0713, 317 SeptemberNovember 2005 (NUTC) ('''(real username)N''')
**# '''Support'''--[[es:User:Iacinnikolo|Iacinnikolo]] 1016:1253, 417 OctoberNovember 2005 (NUTC) ('''(real username, soy usuario registrado y real; he votado por mi voluntandad, dejad de borrarme mi pagina de usuario)N''')
**# '''Support'''--[[User:CharlitosForo-fico|CharlitosForo-fico]] 1714:0407, 53 OctoberSeptember 2005 (UTC) ('''N''')
**# '''Support'''--[[es:User:Orhan_akademiIacin|Orhan_akademiIacin]] 10:3312, 244 October 2005 (UTC) ('''N''')
**# '''Support'''--[[User:Daryo|Daryo]]
**# '''Support'''--[[User:LizaGranayOro|LizaGranayOro]] 2314:3625, 131 NovemberSeptember 2005 (UTC) ('''N''')
**# '''Support'''--[[User:ILVITudmir|ILVITudmir]] 0115:5517, 1420 November 2005 (UTC'''N''')
**# '''Support'''--[[User:BuzkidLoqu|BuzkidLoqu]] 2314:5355, 1522 November 2005 (UTC)
**# '''Support'''--[[User:AlqueriasHégésippe Cormier|Hégésippe]] Llibre|Alquerias Llibre[[User talk:Hégésippe Cormier|±Θ±]] 0204:1311, 1724 November 2005 (UTC) (N) '''(real username)'''
**# '''Support'''--[[User:nikoloMarley|nikoloMarley]] 1613:5318, 172 NovemberDecember 2005 (UTC) (N) '''(real username)'''
** Invalid supports:
**Proposer's user account in Meta and other wikis: '''Assarbe''' (Ain_Xaitan@yahoo.es) --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 17:31, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
*** <s>'''Support'''--[[oc:User: Todmir|Todmir]] 13:44, 31 August 2005 ('''N''')</s> <small>This user does not exist --[[User:Javier Carro|Javier Carro]] 09:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)</small>
*** '''EXISTO/I EXIST''' --[[User:Todmir|Todmir]] 15:48, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
*** <s>'''Support'''--[[es:User:Mangas|Mangas]] 19:02, 31 August 2005 ('''N''')</s> <small>This user does not exist --[[User:Javier Carro|Javier Carro]] 09:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)</small>
** Proposer's user account in Meta and other wikis: '''Assarbe''' (Ain_Xaitan@yahoo.es) --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 17:31, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
** User accounts of others who are willing to work on the proposed wiki:
*:** [[oc:User:Pasha|Pasha]] 16:01, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*:** [[oces:User:TodmirAlba|TodmirAlba]] 1319:4400, 31 August 2005 (NUTC)
*:** [[occa:User:MangasGuardamarenc|MangasGuardamarenc]] 18:56 3113, August1 2005September 2005(NUTC)
*:** --[[oc:User:AlbaCharlitos|AlbaCharlitos]] 1917:0012, 315 AugustOctober 2005 (UTC) ('''N''')
*:** [[es:User:GranayOroOrhan_akademi|GranayOroOrhan_akademi]] 1310:4833, 124 SeptemberOctober 2005 (NUTC) ('''N''')
*:** --[[ca:User:GuardamarencAlquerias Llibre|GuardamarencAlquerias Llibre]] 1802:13, 117 SeptemberNovember 2005 (UTC)('''N''')
*:** [[es:User:Foro-Fico|Foro-Ficofico]] 14:07, 3 September 2005('''N''')
*:--** [[User:CharlitosGranayOro|CharlitosGranayOro]] 1713:1248, 51 OctoberSeptember 2005 (UTC) ('''N''')
*** Invalid usernames:
*: [[es:User:Orhan_akademi|Orhan_akademi]] 10:33, 24 October 2005 (UTC) (N)
**** <s>[[oc:User:Todmir|Todmir]] 13:44, 31 August 2005 ('''N''')</s><small>This user does not exist --[[User:AlqueriasJavier LlibreCarro|AlqueriasJavier LlibreCarro]] 0209:1332, 1719 November 2005 (UTC)(N)</small>
*** --[[User:Todmir|Todmir]] 15:42, 20 November 2005 (UTC) ¿Quién dice que no existo? Who says that I don't exist?
**** <s>[[oc:User:Mangas|Mangas]] 18:56 31, August 2005 ('''N''')</s><small>This user does not exist --[[User:Javier Carro|Javier Carro]] 09:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)</small>
 
* ISO code: no ISO 639-2 code, "es-mu" proposed.
* Proposed ___domain: es-mu.wikipedia.org
* Relevant infos: language spoken in Murcia, at the south-east of Spain
* Link to article(s) on the language in an existing Wikipedia: [[:ca:Panotxo|Murcian/Panotxo]] (in Catalan), [[:es:Dialecto murciano|Murciano]] (in Spanish), [[:de:Murciano|Murciano]] (in German).
* Approximate number of speakers: 350.000 - 3.500.000
* Location(s) spoken: [[:en:Murcia_%28autonomous_community%29|Region of Murcia]] ([[:en:Spain|Spain]], [[:en:Europe|Europe]]); Alicante and Albacete.
* Closely related languages, if any: It's considered, by some linguists, as a transition language between [[:en:Spanish|Spanish]] and [[:en:Catalan|Catalan]].
* External links to organizations that promote the language: [http://www.llenguamaere.com Llengua maere] (in Murcian, and some extracts in Spanish and Catalan), [http://www.um.es/tonosdigital/znum5/index.htm Dialectological study about Murcian from University of Murcia] (in Spanish)
* Link to request on a mailing list:
*Comments:
**How distinct is Murcian from standard Castilian Spanish? It doesn't seem to be widely listed as a separate language...... However, there is strong support here from native speakers. Perhaps some examples of the language could help. --[[User:Chamdarae|Chamdarae]] 18:06, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
***''Llorca es una zudià i molecipio murciano con una pupulancia e mas e 80.000 habitantes, e los qualos cuasi 50.000 viven n'er centro i 30.000 esturreaos dentre los más e 60 caseríos d'er molecipio. Llorca amás tié'l termino molecipal mas jrande e to'l Estao Español, ansina ha·arribao a ser comparao'n grandaria con provincias como Guipúzcoa''
***There are links as enough as you can make your own opinion about this fact, specially in those articles from wikipedia. --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 09:50, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
**I have to take issue with some of the information above. Although I come from the north of Spain and am not familiar with the linguistic situation in Murcia, I can assure you that murciano is regarded as a separate language by virtually nobody. The above figure of 3,500,000 speakers seems to be just the total population of the areas claimed by the proponents of the language. The funny thing is that 99% of those three and a half million people are probably unaware that they speak anything other than Spanish. Furthermore, there is no written standard for the dialect, and there are no newspapers or books, as far as I'm aware, in this "language". I do not know what the accepted policy for accepting a new language in Wikipedia is. Basically, if creating a Wikipedia in Bolivian Spanish or in Geordie English is regarded as acceptable, then a Wikipedia in Murciano may make sense. What worries me is that this seems like an attempt by a very small group of people to promote an as yet non-existent written standard of their regional form of speech, and they seem to have decided to use Wikipedia as a means to promote their questionable linguistic views. It is also quite suspicious that many of the users above have not made any contributions in the Wikipedias where they are registered. I will abstain from voting against it, though, because I am not sure what the rules and precedents for cases like this are. --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 20:58, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
***That's false. In Región de Murcia there are more than 1.300.000 inhabitants. Who are saying that there are 3.500.000? NOBODY
***After I wrote the above comment, I've realised that the Murcian Wikipedia has already been approved, so it would have been too late to oppose it, anyway. It will be interesting to see how many people contribute to it. --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 21:28, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
****And by the way, most of the "users" that supported the creation of this new wikipedia do not correspond to valid user names. The names Tomir, Mangas, Alba, GranayOro, Foro-fico and Alquerias Llibre link to non-existent user pages in the Spanish and Occitan wikipedias. And Iacin does not look like a registered user, although the User:Iacin page has been edited. Is there anything I am missing? How come a new Wikipedia is accepted when most of the votes for it are from bogus users? --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 21:53, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
*****Because it had support and no opposition. I've moved it off the approved list. [[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]] 00:16, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
******That's false. There are real usernames of people who are interested in work at the murcian wikipedia. If this are the argument to refuse the murcian Wikipedia, not seems very honest reason --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 11:58, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
*******Actually most of the alleged bogus users still do not have accounts in the wikipedias that they are claimed to have accounts in (the exception being Alquerias Llibre). They are not real usernames. Several of them do have accounts in meta, but except for Iacin they haven't made any edits - not even to add their usernames to this list. If they are real people they should sign in and support this request for themselves. --[[User:Chamdarae|Chamdarae]] 19:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. The bogus users are identified above. Most of the users were added either by one particular real user or from one particular IP address. Sockpuppetry won't get you a wikipedia. --[[User:Chamdarae|Chamdarae]] 03:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Hello, I signed as a member for the Murcian Wikipedia. I do not understand the reason why some people here have doubts about the members of this project, demostrate that I have the same IP address as other, you cannot because Iam a different user. I'm a native speaker of Murcian, and I strongly claim for the creation of a Wikipedia in my language. Many people like me will work in this project, please, do not doubt it! --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 21:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
***There were some obvious voting irregularities, and nothing has been done to fix this. If these are real people who want to support this wiki, they should log in and vote for themselves (just as you did), and use real usernames. --[[User:Chamdarae|Chamdarae]] 19:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
**I fully agree you. We are murcian speakers. Why can't we have and work in our language in our project? --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 12:04, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
**And I don't think this request was particularly credible anyway. Murcian is really just a transitional dialect between Spanish and Catalan, and not a separate language. There's no need for it to have a wikipedia. --[[User:Chamdarae|Chamdarae]] 03:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
*** Therefore, murcian is not castilian and is not catalan. Besides, how many languages have their origin in other two or more languages? Not seems a hard argument --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 12:04, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
****Perhaps we could compare it to Scottish English, which is a variety of English with a strong Lallans Scots influence. It has characteristics of both languages, but is not itself a separate language by most definitions of the word. --[[User:Chamdarae|Chamdarae]] 19:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Opppose'''--[[User:Ecemaml|Ecemaml]] 06:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC). I fully support Angel Riesco's comments above.
*'''Oppose'''. To be consistent with my arguments, I think I must cast a no vote. I very much doubt that there is a case for a Murcian standard language. Even if there is, such a language should gain some currency in the Murcia region before it can have a Wikipedia. --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 07:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
*: Are you meanning that Murcian should have an official recognision from political authorities in Spain?? Here are a lot of unofficial languages with their own wikipedia edition. A very clear exemple is Occitan language, so as it's very close to Catalan language (I haven't learnt Occitan but I understand 90% almost) and it isn't official anywhere in France (in exception of Aranese variety in a only one comarca of Catalonia with 8.000 inhabitants). I'm agree with you that no reason I found about to create wikipedia editions such in andalusian/argentinian/canarian/US-Spanish, nor another similar comparision between linguistic varieties such Catalan/Valencian, Brazilian/Portuguese, US-English/UK-English/Australian English, etc. But in the case of Murcian is different, in spite of its unclear linguistic status, because I've no doubt that murcian have its own linguistic entity enough as dialect, as language, as ''lingua franca'', as melting pot of several romanic languages, as ever as you wish. If there are few people talking it, or even it would be considered as a dead language, these aren't reasons to reject persons who would want to work an their proper encyclopaedia. Remember diversity. --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 09:32, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
:: I fully agree with Joanot. There are too many languages '''without a standard normative and without recognison''', but with an Wikipedia version. What's the matter now with the murcian? --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 12:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
:::Official recognition is not the main issue, though it would certainly help. Recognition by linguists is more important (IMO), as it would suggest that a speech variety is distinct enough to be called a separate language. And it seems that most of the linguistic community treats Murcian as a dialect of Spanish. Searching google doesn't help much - "Murcian language" only gets 10 results - 8 of them related to wikipedia, and the other 2 reading "spanish-murcian language" and "Spanish: Murcian language". ("Llengua murciana" and "Lengua murciana" do get more results, but since a large proportion of modern linguistic material is in English, I would expect there to be more information in English online.) If Murcian could be shown to be a distinct language in some sense (eg. if it was mutually unintelligible with Castilian Spanish, had some kind of official recognition, or a was a well-established literary language), I might support it. But it doesn't look like it meets any of these criteria. It should be treated the same way as we'd treat a request for a wikipedia in Geordie or Scouse. --[[User:Chamdarae|Chamdarae]] 19:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 
===Current supports===
*::The distinction between languages and dialects is not a clear-cut one, and there are lots of grey areas. There has been strong opposition here to accepting wikipedias in Cantonese or Wu Chinese, which are probably more different from Mandarin than Spanish from Catalan or Portuguese. My opinion is that for a language to be accepted there should be some sense of linguistic community and an accepted written standard. I am not saying that this must necessarily be in the form of official recognition by certain local authorities, but there must be a community that claims to speak the language, and there must be some sort of written standard. For example, Portuguese textbooks say that Galician is a variety of the Portuguese language, but most people in Galicia feel that it is a separate language and there is indeed a standard way of writing Galician. Asturian and Aragonese have no official recognition within Spain, and used to be regarded as Spanish dialects in romance linguistics, but they are viewed as separate languages by many of their speakers and there is a certain literary tradition in both. Again, a sense of linguistic community exists, and there are Wikipedias in Galician, Asturian and Aragonese. The situation is much more complex in the case of Murcian. The claim that it is a separate language is quite new to me, and seems to be promoted by a very small number of people. My attitude towards it would have been much more positive if the people who want the Murcian Wikipedia had stated their claim with honesty, presenting it as a peculiar dialect of Spanish that is dying out and that a minority are struggling to preserve. Instead, they chose to make the outrageous claim that several million people speak the language in Murcia and in the adjacent regions, and they glossed over the fact that it is simply a dialect of Spanish in traditional romance linguistics. Anyone reading the information presented with the request was probably baffled that an obscure language with three million speakers is spoken in Spain. Not only that, but they even invented native speakers using bogus user names to present a deceptive image of widespread support for this supposed language. The figure of 3,500,000 has recently been edited and it has had a nought removed, probably ina an attempt to make it more credible. I would like to know where either figure comes from. They haven't even bothered to explain whether by Murcian they refer to panocho or to a broader dialect area. Such shameful antics have made me feel very strongly against this proposal. I said that they should try to promote the language within Murcia before creating a Wikipedia because as long as most Murcians are not even aware that there is a "Murcian language", I don't think a new Wikipedia should exist to accomodate a linguistic whim. The language community should exist before the Wikipedia, not the other way around. By the way, I cannot help being surprised by your support for the Murcian language. You come from the Valencia region and you know that there are people there who, probably for political rather than linguistic reasons, claim that Valencian is a separate language. According to your appeal to diversity, shouldn't you support a Valencian Wikipedia to make such people happy? Why not let anyone who claims to speak a language have their own Wikipedia, then? Some of the requests for languages here look like a joke. Now it turns out that there are tens of languages in places like Italy or Germany that deserve a Wikipedia. My opinion is that such wikipedias in languages that are not even known by their supposed speakers are not serious, and I can't see the point in accepting them. --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 11:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Support:''' 30 ({{u|Assarbe}} ('''N'''), [[User:Martorell|Joanot]], {{u|Node ue}}, {{u|Alquerias Llibre}} ('''N'''), {{u|Nikolo}} ('''N'''), {{u|Iacin}} ('''N'''), {{u|JaviMurcianico}} ('''N'''), [[ca:User:Guardamarenc]], [[:es:User:Alba]], [[oc:Pasha]] ('''N'''), {{u|Charlitos}} ('''N'''), [[es:User:Orhan_akademi]] ('''N'''), {{u|Liza}} ('''N'''), {{u|ILVI}}, {{u|Buzkid}}, {{u|Antonetevive}}, {{u|PACORRO}} ('''N'''), {{u|Mmoreloz}}, {{u|Daryo}} ('''N'''), {{u|Foro-fico}} ('''N'''), {{u|Murcia Llibre}}, {{u|GranayOro}} ('''N'''), {{u|Palmesanico}}, {{u|Juan Antonio Alonso Costa}} ('''N'''), Tudmir ('''N'''), [[User:Loqu|Loqu]], [[User:Hégésippe Cormier|Hégésippe]], {{u|Marley}}, {{u|Azadares}} ('''N'''),{{{u|Murcianete}} ('''N''')
::: I never have said that murcian is spoken by SEVERAL MILLIONS!!! (Has Región de Murcia that pupulation??)... o en castellano, para que me pueda expresar mejor. Nunca he dicho tal cosa. Me parece francamente mal que manipules la información que se está dando. Se dió la cifra de 300.000 personas que podrían entenderlo, no que lo hagan servir habitualmente. Y tu estás diciendo que falto a la verdad porque digo que hay 3.500.000 hablantes (no sabes contabilizar los puntos en las cifras? :) =. No se chico, no creo que sea yo quien esté faltando a la verdad.
 
* '''Oppose:''' 15 ([[:es:User:JRGL]], {{u|AngelRiesgo}}, {{u|Javier Carro}}, {{u|Sanbec}}, {{u|Lourdes Cardenal}}, {{u|Felipealvarez}}, {{u|Taichi}}. {{u|Rata de Biblioteca}}, {{u|Ecemaml}}, {{u|Ejrrjs}}, {{u|Chamdarae}}, {{u|Rsg}}, {{u|Ecelan}}), {{u|CHV}}. {{u|Leptictidium}}
:: If there are bogus users, it shouldn't be counted, I'm agree with you about it, don't worry. But I'm giving my entire attention only about the proposal on Murcian language. Here were a proposal about a Valencian wikipedia already and my opposition were shown then, of course. Those proposal finally gone out with any support, because Valencian particularities are welcome in Catalan wikipedia, even recommended and fomented in articles related with Valencian subjects.
 
===Comments===
::: Would be murcian "particularities" welcome in Spanish wikipedia? I don't think so. The valencian case and murcian aren't the same. In Catalan wiki there are articles with valencian words. I don't want to imaginate what would say the people in the Spanish wiki if I start to edit in murcian --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 12:14, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Iam agree with those, who against defining Murcian as a language.I learn Spanish and I undestood example of Murciano, that I have seen copmpleetly, though my knowledge of Spanish isnt very good. In this case, what will be if Spanish would be my native language? Probably I wouldnt have a problems with undersanding of Murciano.If you treat any dialects as a languages, you have got fully confusion in minds. Have Murcian some specific features, that dosnt exist niether in Spanish nor Catalan? Where is different grammar? Where is strong difference in vocabulary? Its stupid! This is not linguistics, this is dialectology more!
 
===Part II of the Murcian ongoing===
:: These bogus users are people interested in the edition of articles. They aren't invented people. If they can't support, well, would be deleted of the list, but there aren't "invented" people. --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 07:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''SUPPORT''' -- wikipedia en llengua maere!! --[[User:Node ue|Node ue]] 01:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
* Murcian was moved from the aproved list because the "bogus users" matter, what has been demostred that there are real usernames... What's the problem now? Why Murcian wikipedia is still denied?
** Actually no one has fixed the "bogus users" matter - most of them are still not real usernames. --[[User:Chamdarae|Chamdarae]] 19:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
*** Hi Chamadrae, the best way to verify this is: Were the support votes added by individual anonymous users, or one person?
* '''SUPPORT''','' Chieríos compaeriquios: Leyo er murciano y l'ascribo (anque una jelepa).Lo platico (solitiquiamente ambunas feces)''. (Dear wikipedists: I am able to read and write murcian and I speak it sometimes) --[[User:85.97.78.137|85.97.78.137]] 09:07, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''OPPOSE''' hyperfragmentation. Next Cartagenese Wikipedia; at least it will have an historical foundation. (Pity that Cantonese has already been taken) [[User:80.58.192.196|80.58.192.196]] 18:21, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
:: Cartagena never have had their own language. Cartagena nunca ha tenido su propia lengua!!. Seamos serios. Este argumento es la mayor parida de todas. Menuda tontería. ¿Jugamos a tergiversar la realidad?
* '''SUPPORT''' -- I'm really surprised since Murcian is not in the aproved list yet. It has been completely proved that most of the supporters were real nicknames. The Murcian speakers and our language are being victims of many dreadful prejudices and a huge ignorance about this issue. For this reason I claim for our right of having a Wikipedia in our mother tongue: the Murcian language. Many important linguists, such as Francisco Martínez Torres and Antonio Sánchez Verdú, among others, have stated that Murcian is a true language fully structured and it has a huge number of speakers (me included). Many opposed comments which I have read here are false. Furthermore, these opposed people just seem to hate our language. Therefore I claim for common sense and the creation of our Murcian Wikipedia. Lastly, I have to say that all the supporters are looking forward to working in this great project![[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 17:19, 8 November 2005 (UTC) (Real Nickname)
:: Chapeau... i just can say that!!
* '''SUPPORT''' I agree, Murcian is our language. And I would like to support this project, because our language deserve to be recognized. Greetings from Lorca (Murcia).Daryo.
* '''Oppose''' This ''language'' is too close to Spanish to be considered independent. There's no natural use of this ''language'' besides folkloric festivities or academic work: Spanish/Castillian is mostly the one an unique language spoken in Murcia region (Catalan is spoken by few in an isolated valley) and what some people think they talk or use is only a mild dialectal and lexical variety of Spanish no more distant from the standard than ''Porteño'' or other South American or Spanish regional speeches. The ''true'' Murcian ''language'' seen in [http://www.llenguamaere.com] and other sites should be understood as fictional or dead. -- [[es:Usuario:JRGL|J]] 13:02, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
** '''Support'''--[[Aranrui]] 01:25, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' A long time ago, after Chamdarae identified the bogus user names in the support list, someone edited this section to substitute "real" for "bogus", in a childish attempt to claim that those user names are valid. Alquerias Llibre, a user who voted in favour of the Murcian wikipedia... before registering as a user in a Wikipedia claims above that "It has been completely proved that most of the supporters were real nicknames" (!), as if editing a list of unregistered names to add "(real username)" behind the bogus names were to miraculously make those names valid. I have identified the bogus names again, and will count the support and oppose votes that belong to valid users once more. I have expressed myself against a wikipedia in Murcian, but I accept that there may be a lot of people who honestly support it, but please please follow the rules and vote as registered users. Names in red or fake links to would-be names in different wikipedias cannot be accepted. And, frankly, if at some point there was a deluge of registrations and votes in favour of this new wikipedia, I'm afraid the suspicion of sockpuppetry would be quite inevitable. --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 00:22, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''OPPOSE''' It's totally nonsense. --[[User:Javier Carro|Javier Carro]] 13:16, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
: I have recounted the number of support and opposition votes in the above discussion. If we don't accept votes that correspond to IP addresses, user names in red, and bogus user names, there are, if I have counted correctly, 9 votes in support of the Murcian wikipedia (Assarbe, Joanot, Pasha, Guardamarenc, Alba, Charlitos, Orhan_Akademi, Alquerias Llibre and Node ue) and 5 votes against it (Chamdarae, Ecemaml, AngelRiesgo, Javier Carro and J). I have had the generosity to count user Alba (which looks more like an abandoned user name in Spanish Wikipedia. Please, Alba, correct me if I'm wrong) and Alquerias Llibre (who registered as a user in the Spanish wkipedia after having a vote cast here in his or her name). I see that red names supporting the Murcian wikipedia continue to appear. The whole thing about all the bogus names is quite silly, actually. If there are so many Murcian speakers who want to take part in this project, why on earth can't they register as users in Meta and speak for themselves? --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 00:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
*:: I'm really pleased for your "generosity to count" me as a real user name, you are so kind, thank you very much. I do not know what I would do without your generosity. Thank God that the guardians of the Spanish language have come to save our sinful souls and to order our destiny. I'm a real registered user, do not doubt it, please. --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 12:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
::: Perdona, pero o yo no entiendo cómo funciona wikipedia o eres tú el que no lo entiende. Cualquiera puede consultar el historial de ediciones y ver que el primer voto de Alquerias Llibre no corresponde a una edición de un usuario llamado "Alquerias Llibre", lo cual hace que, según yo lo entiendo, el voto no sea válido. Sinceramente, no entiendo qué quieres decir. El voto de "Alba" tampoco fue hecho por un usuario "Alba". Por eso, esos dos votos me han parecido sospechosos. Mientras que todas mis ediciones pueden comprobarse revisando el historial y viendo que, efectivamente, quien firma como "AngelRiesgo" es, pues eso, "AngelRiesgo", éste no ha sido tu caso. Dices que eres un usuario real, y no dudo que eres una persona de carne y hueso, pero desde luego no eres un usuario registrado en Meta, ya que tu nombre sale en rojo. Entonces, ¿Por qué diablos no te registras y votas como usuario registrado para que no haya estos malentendidos? No se puede decir que son usuarios reales nombres que no corresponden a los autores de las ediciones de las páginas, hombre. ¿Es tan difícil de entender? --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 01:13, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
:::: Te pido disculpas porque acabo de comprobar que sí estás registrado en Meta, es sólo que al no haber editado tu página de usuario tu nombre sale en rojo. Ha sido un error mío en este caso, pero sí es verdad que en tu primer voto no estabas registrado con ese nombre. Pero vale, muy bien, acepto que tu voto es completamente válido. Sin embargo, no lo son los de usuarios como Todmir y compañía, que ni existían ni creo que existan ahora como usuarios registrados de ninguna wikipedia. Tal vez tú no hayas tenido nada que ver, pero a los partidarios de la wikipedia en murciano os resta mucha credibilidad el que algún desaprensivo se haya puesto a añadir nombres de usuario inventados. Al menos yo no voy por ahí inventándome siete u ocho nombres de usuario para hacer bulto. --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 01:32, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
::::: Bueno, gracias por la puntualización. Acabo de editar mi página de usuario para que mi nombre no aparezca en rojo, ya que empiezo a estar bastante cansado de tener que demostrar una y otra vez la autenticidad de mi firma. Además, para que no haya dudas, he borrado mi firma en la lista de arriba y he vuelto a firmar por si acaso no lo hice bien la vez anterior. En lo que respecta al resto de usuarios, no tengo ni la menor idea de ellos, yo sólo puedo hablar por mí mismo: firmé yo solito y por nadie más. Dudo mucho que no existan dichas personas, estoy convencido de que simplemente no supieron utilizar este sistema correctamente o no supieron registrarse. Lo que pasa es que aprovechais la situación para pisotearnos este ilusionante proyecto... En fin, yo aprovecho para animar a todos los que firmaron al principio para que se vuelvan a registrar correctamente, si es que no lo hicieron (que lo dudo). --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 02:33, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' --[[User:Sanbec|Sanbec]] 16:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' [[User:Lourdes Cardenal|Lourdes Cardenal]] 17:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC) Hago mías las palabras de ÁngelRiesgo
* '''OPPOSE''' [[User:Felipealvarez|Felipealvarez]] 19:46, 14 November 2005 (UTC) What would be the next? Puente-Vallecano, Villa-Vallecano, Villaverdeño, Carabanchelero, Fuencarralero, Toledano, or Madripo-pijeño from Barrio Salamanca? Murciano / Panocho it's only a dialect, Porteño in Buenos Aires it's more different by far from Standart Spanish than Murcian Dialect. These people that think they are writting in murciano, it's analphabet people that only would get the basic education degree with the new educative law, because they absolutly don't know Spanish grammar and ortographic rules.
*:: The easiest statement to oppose the Murcian Wikipedia is just to say that we are "analphabet people that only would get the basic education degree with the new educative law [...] they absolutly don't know Spanish grammar and ortographic rules"!!!! Not only you judge us and insult us calling us analphabet people, but you also state that we don't know Spanish properly. Do not judge me without knowing anything about me. Fistly, I did not study the new educative law, I studied at the former educative system (EGB, BUP, COU...). And lastly, I know perfectly how to write Spanish since I studied Spanish Philology at the University of Murcia. Anyway, the only argumentation against Murcian Wikipedia that I have read here is full of prejudices, insults and total ignorance about Murcian language. --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 12:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' Really the Murcian is a Spanish dialect, maybe exist some dialects from Spanish with better grammatic and literary indivualism than Murcian.--[[User:Taichi|Taichi - (^_^)]] 05:17, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' --Only it's a Spanish dialect. [[User:Rata de Biblioteca|Rata de Biblioteca]] 10:50, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''SUPPORT''' -- It is a demonstrated fact that the distinction between a language and a dialect is completely arbitrary and just political. Murcian has all the features to be considered a language, the problem is only political and a fact of identity. The people who claim that Murcian is a dialect just want to underestimate the value of Murcian language towards Spanish, you only have to read their argumentation in order to realize about this. Furthermore, it is also a fact that all these people come from the Spanish Wikipedia and they are always fighting against the creation of other wikipedias in minority languages of Spain. --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 13:15, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''SUPPORT''' Buenas, soy un nacionalista murciano mas. Por lo visto hay que escribir para que algunos crean de una vez que somos de carne y hueso. No se si he seguido los pasos correctos para APOYAR la llengua murciana , pero esa es mi posicion. I SUPPORT THE MURCIAN LANGUAGE ;) Murcia*Llibre '''
* '''SUPPORT''' I just want to support that people who are defending and promoting our cultural backgropund in Murcia. It´s the same that will have a Wikipedia in murcian or not, as well the oficial recognition, we know who we are and we know what murcian is and what meaning for us. Anyway, thanks to everyone who is making possible that the murcian not die. I´m a real and registered user and i sign in my own name. Un salúo y un envión mu juerte pa tos dende Venezuela, que no sus pare naide!. Pacorro
* '''SUPPORT''' Hola, yo soy un murciano.Los unicos analafabetos son los que no son capaces de reconocer el la diferencia entre el murciano y el castellano. Reto a quien piense lo contrario que venga a murcia pero no al la capital, haber si es capaz de entender el murciano, el cual tiene una fonetica y un vocabulario diferente en muchos asectos al del castellano. No os opongais desde la ignorancia o la envidia. I SUPPORT THE MURCIAN LANGUAGE. mmoreloz
* '''SUPPORT''' Soy murciano y mi lengua madre es el murciano panocho, desde que nací hace 28 años, y eso no quita que haya aprendido correcto y perfectísimo castellano o español o como quieran llamarlo, pero la lengua que mamé de mi madre y de mi abuela es el murciano. Apoyo incondicionalmente a mi lengua madre, el murciano ('''N''') MURCIA LIBRE --[[User:nikolo|nikolo]]
* '''Support''' Estoy a favor del murciano como lengua de la comunidad autónoma de la región de Murcia. <small>''This comment is moved from inappropiate place of the page, and it's made by {{u|Juan Antonio Alonso Costa}} (reference:[//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages&diff=237726&oldid=237721]). --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 12:49, 20 November 2005 (UTC)''</small>
* '''SUPPORT''' Soy cartagenero, que es una forma de ser murciano, cantonal auténtico, es decir, republicano y federalista, no meapilas ni provincialista de esos reaccionarios. En mi trozo de tierra, se dice babaol a lo mismo que en otros arrecujones se le menta ababol, ababola,... Me gusta la diversidad. Y lo mismo que defiendo la biodiversidad, también hay que defender la etnodiversidad, la riqueza cultural de nuestra tierra, nuestra lengua madre, y todas sus variantes. antonetevive
* '''OPPOSE''' [[User:Anna|Anna]] 21:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC) An absolute nonsense. Defending Murcia culture has nothing to do with creating a dialectical wikipedia.
* SOY IACIN: Estimados amigos, es verdad que el murciano se habla en una zona con 3.500.000 de personas; de ellas ahi quien habla ingles, ruso, o analfabetos, pero para crear wikipedia en catalan tambien se ha utilizado el censo de Los Paises Catalanes y no se han restado las comarcas castellano hablantes, ni los analfabetos, ni los inmigrantes...; ¿Cuanta gente habla Murciano en el mundo?, pues solo podemos decir que con encuestas se aproxima al 10% de esa poblacion, aunque entre el 76-80% de estos 3 millones y medio utilizan al menos 200 de sus más de 5000 palabras exclusivas.
* Hola! Es la primera vez que escribo por aquí, me registré en su día y voté a favor de la wikipedia en la lengua murciana, la de mi tierra y la que asiduamente practico, pues he ganado algún concurso en nuestro idioma que ha convocado L'Ajuntaera. He oído que a pesar de que nuestra wikipedia en murciano ha sido apoyada por un número mayor de votos a favor que en contra esta, sin embargo, no ha sido añun colgada en la red, corríjanme si me equivoco, hay quienes dudan de la veracidad de algunos votos, incluso el mío! Por favor, sólo os pido una cosa, esto es una enciclopedia virtual libre, participativa y sin ideologías fascistas, centralistas y discrimanatorias hacia nadie. O eso quiero pensar! Así que por favor, dejad de discriminar a esta humilde lengua nuestra y a nuestro sencillo y honrado pueblo nuestro y déjennos poder expresarnos en nuestro idioma y defender y difundir nuestro patrimonio lingüistico, tan denostado y maltratado por muchos. Soy GranayOro y quien quiera saber más datos de mi, que me lo pida. Pero EXISTO y soy Murciano!! Apa la LLengua Murciana!!
* '''SUPPORT''' [[User:Iacin|Iacin]] 08:05, 18 November 2005 (UTC) La pregunta es la siguiente, ¿Por que no tenemos derecho a defender nuestras costumbres, gastronomia, leyendas, y nuestra LENGUA?. ¿Quien es el que niega la identidad de tantos millones de personas por subjetivamente pensar que es politica?, ¿no es todo politica?, Si, todo es politica, el que usted nos discrimine y dude, es su politica. Otra cosa, dialecto son TODAS las lenguas, pues todas vienen de otras; pero el murciano es dialecto del latinP, aragones y mozarabe y por lo tanto merece una wikipedia.
* Yo también comienzo a estar harto de este JUEGO SUCIO de la wiki española. Ya está bien hombre!!. Esto es de una poca verguenza que clama al cielo. La wiki murciana fue parada con malas artes, un usuario la movió de la lista de aprobadas por un motivo inventado por el y... ¿donde está ese usuario? ¿no quiere dar la cara? ¿donde quedan sus disculpas? que yo sepa no ha vuelto a aparecer. Lo de esta proposal ya raya lo surrealista y lo ilegal. Y nos encargaremos de que todo esto se sepa. Las malas artes, este juego sucio tiene que ser conocido por la sociedad murciana. Señores, un poco más de verguenza y seriedad! Para empezar podríamos empezar por dirigirnos a esa gente que nos pisotea el proyecto, a su página de usuario, a ver que contestan, están haciendo lo que les da la gana y eso no lo podemos consentir --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 11:35, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
*: Assarbe, I agree with you. This is a huge discrimination against us and our language. What about our rights? We have satisfied all the requirements to create the Murcian Wikipedia and we all the supporters have already proved that we are real user names. What's going on now? --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 13:14, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 
Hola! soy Murciano, practico la lengua murciana asiduamente e incluso he ganado premios en nuestra lengua. Y apoyo totalmente la aprobación de la wikipedia en Murciano, que demuestre que existe la pluralidad, el respeto a las minorías lingüisticas y la democracia participativa en estsa enciclopedia virtual. Apa la llengua murcian. I SUPPORT THE MURCIAN LANGUAGE.
:: I'm not claiming Murcian as separate language, and this proposal isn't stating anything about this linguistic status. In fact, the links to find information about Murcian language are in both sense, one stating as independent language, and another stating as Spanish dialect, in the way that every person can make their own opinion. Then I made my own opinion, and I've supported it so. Why?. Because I see Murcian is very dialectalished, it isn't as Andalusian nor Canarian, but I think that it the most distanced dialect from Spanish, not only because how it's pronounced, but also because its particularly lexicon and another reasons. The differences between Murcian and Stantard Spanish are very showy. Would be Murcian particularities welcome in Spanish Wikipedia?. I'm sure it isn't possible, because Murcian particularities are considered as "bizarre" by Spanish-speakers from outside Murcia. I'm Spanish-speaker too, and it's really hard to me accepting Murcian lexicon in Spanish Wikipedia. In Valencian case, it's opposed, particularities are welcome in Catalan wikipedia, because Valencian particularities aren't seen as a "bizarre form" from Catalonians or Majorquinian people who speaks Valencian/Catalan.
JAVIMURCIANICO--[[User:JaviMurcianico|JaviMurcianico]] 17:13, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 
hola, estoy varios dias intentando escribir, no se si esta vez lo conseguiré editar. Por si acaso decir que soy murciano y defiendo la llengua murciana. I SUPPORT THE MURCIAN LANGUAGE TOO.
:: In the other side, the data about 3.500.000 were an edit from anonymous user after this approval, and the original data were 350.000, as I've restored it (the mention about geographical zone were post-edited too, and reverted so). I'm agree that wikipedia is not and has not to be a political tool to promote linguistic separatism, but also wikipedia has not to be a tool to keep down dying languages or dialects, if there are persons willing it to survive. --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 19:08, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 
VIVA EL PAIS MURCIANO!
:::Frankly, Joanot, I think you're stretching things by claiming that there is some fundamental difference between, on the one hand, Murcian and standard Spanish and, on the other, other dialects and their respective literary languages. Whenever anyone from Valencia claims that Valencian is a different language from Catalan (because they have a different word for "grasshopper" or "screwdriver", or whatever), the usual retort from Catalans (with which I agree) is "go check any book about linguistics". Similarly, I have yet to see any book about linguistics or any encyclopaedia that backs the status of Murcian as a language. As for Murcian uses not being welcome in the Spanish Wikipedia, this happens with colloquialisms in general in any language. Users of English Wikipedia wouldn't accept in an article a sentence like "dat ain't got nuffin' a do wiv dis matta". Do you think rejecting such sentences is disparaging to the speakers of English dialects where such utterances are common? Will such speakers feel uncomfortable in the English Wikipedia? In my opinion, it is just that the standard written language has certain conventional rules. And this is the crux of the matter here: The proponent or proponents of a Murcian Wikipedia want to establish a standard written language based on an amalgam of certain regional usages. Nothing wrong with that. If Murcians at large were interested in this experiment in developing a standard language, and magazines, books, radio programs and so on became available in the language, it would be their choice, and Murcian would be accepted as a written language. That, however, doesn't seem to be the case, especially to judge by the level of support they have mustered here, and the unseemly tactics they have resorted to. As I said, the motives to create a Murcian Wikipedia seem to have more to do with the ambition of a handful of language activists than with meeting the real needs of a linguistic community. --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 21:28, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 
Estoy a favor del murciano como lengua de la comunidad autónoma de la región de Murcia.
:::: First of all, I'm NOT stating Murcian as independent language, I don't care about it, the most important for me is there are persons willing to do an encyclopaedia in their own language/dialect/whatever-you-want, because they have no place to make it in Murcian. And If you're telling that Murcian is only an "regional colloquialism form" you are demonstrating not to know the linguistic facts in the region of Murcia. Other cases such an "Andalusian grammar" really would be a "colloquialism form", or Canarian. But Murcian is different, almost to my opinion. If you read the links above, both parts, stating as Spanish dialect and stating as independent language, are saying the same: It's the most distanced dialect from Spanish, not only because of how it's pronouncing, but also because of its strongly diferent lexicon, morphology, sintax, etc... I'm sure you haven't read information about Murcian, or you have no interest to read it because of prejudices or because any other reason. --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 08:49, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
--[[User:Foro-fico|Foro-fico]] 09:09, 18 November 2005 (UTC)I really am Foro-fico and I support the murcian language.
Thanks. Foro-fico
 
En defensa del murciano:
:::Well, I do not really understand why some people say that Murcian dialect doesn't exist. There is a link of the '''University of Murcia''' [http://www.um.es/tonosdigital/znum5/index.htm 1] about it and that should be enough. I am Murcian and I speak Murcian. It is not only the accent but also lots of local expressions and words that make Murcian a dialect. Murcian comes from a mixture of Catalan, Aragonese, Spanish and Arab. Some links about diferent words in murcian [http://www.zonalibre.org/blog/logaritmia/archives/2004_06.html], [http://www.eltrokolo.com/mula/diccionario+mula+murcia.htm], [http://www.verbolog.com/81murcia.htm], [http://members.fortunecity.es/calledos/pagina20a.htm]... Some word that exist in Spanish are used with another meaning in murcian: pijo (that means in spanish person with money and proud of it) is used in Murcian in much other meanings (me importa un pijo, pijarse el culo...). The rest of Spain often consider that murcian people speaks a very bad and almost uncomprensible Spanish and that's not because we speak bad but because we speak a quite diferent Spanish, such as Aragonese and Asturian (Bable). I consider that we have the same right of having a wikipedia that people from Aragón or from Asturias. There have been some irregularities with this votation but this shouldn't be an argument against this proposal. If someone thinks that Murcian is understood by Spanish people, I could say that I understand Portuguese, Catalan, Italian, Bable, Aragonese, and "Gallego" quite well and this doesn't mean they're the same langage. --[[User:Charlitos|Charlitos]] 14:36, 7 October 2005 (UTC) ''PS: sorry for my bad English''
En la revista belga La Hulpe (febrero 1999), Paul Van Melle dice:
"Jacques Canut ha publicado sus poemarios en tres lenguas. El francés y el castellano no nos extrañan, pero descubrimos el murciano que nos transporta (no lo olvidaré jamás) a la Edad de Oro del s. XIII donde las reminiscencias aragonesas, catalanas y mozárabes coexisten armoniosamente. Me complacen aún más cuando descubro que los textos son pura pesía y no sólamente nostágicos.{...}En la versión murciana no se pierde un ápice toda la musicalidad del texto francés".
(De "Archivo de la palabra"; A. S. Verdú y F. M. Torres; 2004)
Foro-fico
--[[User:Foro-fico|Foro-fico]] 17:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 
Hola! Soy Palmesanico, murciano y practicante de la llengua murciana. He ganado algún premio de literatura en nuestro idioma, y me indigna esta repentina reacción en contra airada y sin motivo alguno, de ciertas personas de la wikipedia española contra la nuestra. Si esto es una enciclopedia virtual libre, plural y participativa, que se demuestre ya mismo. I SUPPORT THE MURCIAN LANGUAGE. Apa noestra llengua!
::::Those words that you say are perfectly understood in several places in Spain. So, they aren't exclusive Murcian words. Moreover, a lexicon doesn't make a language. [http://usuarios.lycos.es/lacasadelarbol/2Jaen.htm Here] you can find a lot of words and expressions frequently used in Jaén, but I'm not interested in a ''Jiennensis Wikipedia'', because it's a no-sense. About morphology and sintax: what is the difference between Spanish and Murcian? I can't see it. Murcian is only a Spanish dialect, as evolved (or even less) as Andalusian and Canarian. And there aren't enough books written in Murcian to know its particular writing or spelling. I think this is only a experiment. [[User:217.217.142.134|217.217.142.134]] 23:10, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Palmesanico --[[User:Palmesanico|Palmesanico]] 16:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
: <small>'''Insered above coment here from a bad place [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages&diff=238052&oldid=238051] --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 12:19, 20 November 2005 (UTC)''</small>
 
* '''Oppose''' as per ÁngelRiesgo [[User:Ejrrjs|Ejrrjs]] 23:40, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
::::: In villages like Pontones or Santiago de la Espada yes, obviosly. In fact, they are part or the murcian language expansion area (or you don't know that Eastern Jaen and Murcia have too many similar lexicon?). You seems to "forget" that Murcian is extensive to all the Segura River land, and Segura River born in the Sierra del Segura, in Jaen. --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 11:50, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' [[User:Rsg|rsg]] ([[User Talk:Rsg|talk]]) 11:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC) I agree with Anna's opinion.
* '''Oppose''' [[User:Edub|Edub]] 12:19, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' it's a Spanish dialect, for when the Riojano dialect? [[w:es:User:CHV|CHV]] ([[w:es:User_talk:CHV|O mío Buzón de Correus]]) 22:44, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 
====Please, be FAIR!====
:: By far, the Argentinian Spanish features most of the claimed characteristics of the Murcian dialect (not to tell about the mutual understandability: has anyone watches the first shots of Martín H located in Buenos Aires? Did anyone understand? Have you seen La vendedora de rosas (it had to be subtitled)?). And nobody is thinking about an Argentinian wikipedia. With regard to lexicon, some care must by put. Most of the provided examples here (pijo) or in the Café of es.wikipedia (copón) are standard Spanish words. --[[User:Ecemaml|Ecemaml]] 15:23, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Please, be fair discussing this proposal, and don't strike nor change any comment from other person, as it should be considered as vandalism. Annonymous comments also are welcome here, in spite of the condition to have a registered user name from some wikimedia project for voting. --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 00:50, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
 
: I've revised the history of this proposal, and I'm a bit ugly because I've just factually verified that here was a attempt to disrupt a normal on-going. I don't know why someone was removing more than half supports from people with registered usernames in meta, claiming it as "sockpuppets".
:::Ya que meta es multiligüe, hablaré en español, que me resulta más práctico. Lo siento, no he visto las películas. Si los argentinos quieren hacer una wikipedia, eso es asunto suyo. Quizá (y digo quizá porque no he visto las películas) el portugués se parezca más al español que el "argentino" que has indicado y sin embargo, son lenguas diferentes. Si no os vale con un estudio de una universidad pública española, pues no sé que más decir. La página http://www.llenguamaere.com/ es una página que da suficiente información sobre la lengua murciana (y no tengo ninguna afiliación a ella), os invito a que la visiteis, no mienten en nada. El dialecto murciano es el más diferenciado de la geografía española y el único que podría conseguir la consideración de lengua diferenciada a medio plazo. Si alguien considera que no debería existir la wikipedia en murciano porque no existe la wikipedia en X, pues que la proponga... --[[User:Charlitos|Charlitos]] 14:11, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 
: As all you can see, here are 21 people all them with registered username on meta supporting it, and, please, I insist again to demand a fair process, specially to {{u|Javier Carro}} from Spanish Wikipedia ([//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3ARequests_for_new_languages%2Fmae&diff=238330&oldid=238100 disruptings]).
::::Nadie ha puesto en duda que exista un dialecto murciano. La cuestión de fondo es que una Wikipedia no es un juguete para que una o tal vez dos personas hagan un experimento. Has citado dos veces ese estudio de la Universidad de Murcia. ¿Has visto que en ese documento los autores prácticamente se mofan de la idea de que existe una "llengua murciana"? Puede ser una visión parcial, por supuesto, y está claro que hay quienes defienden la existencia de una llengua murciana, como las personas que están detrás de llenguamaere.com, Enza y L'Ajuntaera. Estas personas desean promover el uso de esta lengua y escribir y leer en la misma. Pero ¿cuántos son realmente? El número de 300.000 parece exagerado. He estado buscando referencias en Internet y me he encontrado este ejemplo de lengua murciana escrita: [http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:yvlJ7hT-cXcJ:www25.brinkster.com/rubencico/lajuntaera.html+%22llengua+murciana%22+Enza&hl=en]. No cabe duda de que el lenguaje utilizado en la columna de la izquierda es pintoresco, pero ¿realmente hay 300.000 personas para quienes ese lenguaje resulta más comprensible y natural que la traducción de la derecha? Me cuesta creerlo, aunque es posible, cómo no, que sea por mi ignorancia sobre el tema, o por mis prejuicios, como dice Joanot. En cualquier caso, estás soslayando el problema de fondo. Yo intervine aquí en Meta para denunciar un fraude doble: Por un lado, la información sobre la lengua murciana se presentó de una manera creo que tergiversada, como si fuera un idioma universalmente reconocido como diferente del castellano, y con un número enorme de hablantes (3.500.000 en aquel momento); en segundo lugar, y esto es lo más grave, porque parecía que los usuarios que habían apoyado la propuesta eran usuarios falsos. Si revisas el historial de esta página, verás que fueron un usuario que ya había votado y una IP anónima quienes añadieron varios votos a favor del murciano inventándose imaginativos nombres de usuario. Y esto es lo que me parece mal, que una o a lo sumo dos personas empleen todo tipo de medios, saltándose cualquier norma ética, para conseguir una Wikipedia como si fuera su juguetito personal. ¿Qué punto de vista neutral podrá ofrecer una Wikipedia de una sola persona? Es cierto que existen ya wikipedias en lenguas bastante discutibles (se me viene a la cabeza la Wikipedia en klingon...), pero las normas para crear nuevas versiones se han endurecido precisamente para dificultar la proliferación de tales wikipedias marginales. No creo que la Wikipedia en klingon hubiera sido aprobada a día de hoy. Sigo teniendo la impresión de que el único objetivo que persiguen quien(es) desea(n) tener una Wikipedia en murciano es político: Poder presentar la existencia de esa Wikipedia como prueba de aceptación en la red de la lengua murciana, en su afán (legítimo, sin duda) de conseguir un reconocimiento oficial para ésta en la Región de Murcia. No creo que Wikipedia deba ser un instrumento de reivindicación lingüística, y menos con un apoyo tan escaso. Créeme que sentiría mucho que alguien pudiera ver algo antimurciano en mis comentarios. Nada más lejos de mi intención, de verdad. --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 15:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 
: This proposal isn't under any kind of dubious justice yet, in spite of a bad starting, but now it's all OK!. So, I think people should discuss about the proposal issues, not about the process itself. --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 01:52, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
::::: Hola, soy uno de los promotores de la idea de llevar a la práctica esta versión de la WIKI en murciano. En primer lugar quería aclarar que en absoluto he inventado usuario alguno. Puede tratarse de un error, ya que si fui yo quien los agregó a petición suya. Eran gente interesada en colaborar activamente con la edición de artículos. Digo esto porque me molestaría realmente que se llegara a pensar en que he inventado unos nombres para abultar la lista, cosa que obviamente no es así. Por otra parte, Angel, tampoco te tergiverso nada al hablarte de datos. Entraré en detalle. Obviamente no hace falta que te diga que no existe un murciano estandarizado, ¿porque? pues evidentemente porque no existe normalización alguna. Si la hubiese, el murciano tendría status de idioma oficial con toda probabilidad y proyectos como este ya los habrían. El murciano tiene básicamente una gramática castellana, con algún tiempo verbal en catalán, ¿y que? ¿tienen el gallego y el catalán una gramática muy diferenciada del castellano, una estructura sintáctica muy diferenciada tal vez? No, y está claro que son lenguas diferentes al castellano, porque han tenido una diferenciación y una influencias en su formación diferentes. Este argumento lo empleo yo para defender esta tesis. Comparar el murciano con el andaluz me parece erroneo. Salta a la vista que los únicos rasgos diferentes del andaluz respecto al castellano estandar son fonéticos. No existe un léxico diferenciado apenas ni existen influencias como la que la catalana tiene sobre el murciano. Precisamente si el murciano es (de momento) un dialecto, es por las influencias catalanas y árabes. Esto hace que el murciano no sea comparable al andaluz desde mi punto de vista, que obviamente es solo eso, mi opinión. En segundo lugar, obviamente con el adjetivo "pintoresco" ya has definido el porque el proyecto murciano no puede cuajar en el español. Simplemente por desprecio y desconocimiento. ¿Que crees que podría pasar si yo editase un artículo en el que en vez de decir "naranja" dijese "taroncha"? ¿o en vez de "salió" pusiese "va salir"? ¿o si usase los apóstrofos típicos del murciano? obviamente los compañeros de la wiki española lo eliminarían y me reprocharían (con toda la razón del mundo) que me ciñese al castellano estandar. Entonces ¿que debemos hacer con el murciano? ¿está en tierra de nadie? porque no nos vamos a engañar que es parecido al castellano, pues en parte deriva de el, pero no es más ni menos parecido que pueda serlo el aragonés, por ejemplo. ¿Te opusiste también a la wiki aragonesa? Porque eso sería ser consecuente con lo que estás diciendo. Quiero hacerte saber que no tengo filiación política alguna, ni pertenezco a Enza, L'Ajuntaera ni ninguna asociación de este tipo. Simplemente me gustaría realizar este proyecto. Cuanto menos, comprende que tengo que presentarlo, como se suele decir, el no ya lo tengo. Respecto a 300.000, ten en cuenta que la Región de Murcia tiene una población de 1.300.000. Ni mucho menos todo el mundo conoce el murciano. Los 300.000 a los que hago alusión son gentes de las poblaciones donde aún es representativa la influencia del murciano. Obviamente en las dos grandes ciudades la situación de esta habla es puramente residual, reducida a las pedanías adyacentes. Por otra parte, y ya acabo, quiero que percibas el hecho de que gran parte del vocabulario murciano (arabismos generalmente) fueron adoptados por el español, aunque sean palabras poco comunes. Otra parte del vocabulario murciano ha sido adoptado por el español como palabras malsonantes, etiquetando así una lengua como marginal. Obviamente si en Murcia se dice "tié que" o puesto de "tiene que", no es porque seamos más tontos que nadie, simplemente hemos recibido influencias que igual que nos hacen decir eso, nos hacen aspirar determinadas letras. Insisto, no por ser menos cultos que nadie (ya que en Castilla habrán labradores sin formación alguna que sin embargo pronuncien adecuadamente el castellano).ejemplo: ''Llorca es una zudià i molecipio murciano con una pupulancia e mas e 80.000 habitantes, e los qualos cuasi 50.000 viven n'er centro i 30.000 esturreaos dentre los más e 60 caseríos d'er molecipio. Llorca amás tié'l termino molecipal mas jrande e to'l Estao Español, ansina ha·arribao a ser comparao'n grandaria con provincias como Guipúzcoa'' Si esto te parece paleto, es tu opinión. Pero que es murciano y que el murciano es así, es una total evidencia. Y tranquilo, no veo antimurcianismo en tus palabras, simplemente algo de desconocimiento, que te lleva a creer que lo que dicen cuatro acomplejados catedráticos de la UMU es válido. Aquí ya sabemos de que pata cojea esa gente. Sienten auténtico asco y verguenza por su propio hablar y quieren enterrarlo cuanto antes. Que le vamos a hacer. Un saludo. --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 11:12, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 
:: Perdonen si tengo que hablar en español, pero pienso yo que los usuarios que están en rojo y que no tienen enlaces a sus páginas de usuarios en las wikipedias que colaboran, deberían anularsele los votos. No es por nada, pero si quieren luchar por hacer la wiki que sea gente que ya colabore en Wikipedia, no gente que ahora de repente estan sacando chance de que se propone esta versión para hacer votos de dudosa reputación. Más mesura señores.--[[User:Taichi|Taichi - (^_^)]] 04:35, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
::::::Gracias por tu respuesta. No creo que hablar en murciano sea paleto. Me parece muy bien que se intente conservar una forma de hablar que se está perdiendo. Pero tú mismo reconoces que no existe una norma culta de murciano escrito y ahí empiezan los problemas. Una de las reglas que se han aprobado en Meta para la creación de wikipedias en nuevas lenguas es que éstas tengan una forma escrita, y no me parece que el murciano cumpla esta condición. Es más, creo que el número de hablantes debería contar sólo a quienes se sienten identificados con esa forma escrita. Si hiciéramos una encuesta en la Región de Murcia, preguntando a la gente "¿Usted que lengua habla?", no creo que fueran muchos los que respondieran que hablan la lengua murciana. Es un argumento tramposo decir que hay no sé cuántos cientos de miles de hablantes de murciano, considerando un continuo que abarca diferentes niveles de diferencias léxicas y gramaticales con el castellano normativo, y contar a todas esas personas como parte de la comunidad lingüística a la que serviría la wikipedia en murciano. Me parece legítimo que queráis promover una forma normativa del murciano y que se escriban libros y prensa y, por qué no, enciclopedias en esa lengua. Es una opción como tantas otras. Sin embargo, hoy por hoy, no está claro que haya un número considerable de personas en la Región de Murcia que se sientan más cómodas leyendo información sobre, qué sé yo, la historia de Australia o la geografía de Brasil en murciano. Reitero lo que dije en un comentario anterior: "the linguistic community must exist before the Wikipedia, and not the other way around", o sea, que no empecéis a construir la casa por el tejado. Por último, el hecho de que hayas considerado que no había ningún inconveniente en votar en nombre de otros demuestra un desconocimiento de las normas de la comunidad wiki. Los votos deben corresponder a usuarios registrados, no vale decir que se vota porque alguien en comunicación personal te dijo "vota por mí". Si esas personas no han sido capaces de darse de alta como usuarios en meta o en alguna wikipedia y votar ellos mismos, comprenderás que existan dudas de que vayan a registrarse y colaborar activamente en la wikipedia en murciano. Y también comprenderás que existan dudas sobre tu propia capacidad para ser el administrador de una wikipedia, donde tendrías que velar por el cumplimiento de las normas de licencia y demás. Siento haberme convertido en el aguafiestas que ha paralizado la creación de la wikipedia en murciano pero sigo pensando que es un proyecto excesivamente personal que no aportaría nada a la comunidad wiki. Ya hay unas cuantas wikipedias medio abandonadas incluso en lenguas relativamente importantes. --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 09:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 
:: Yo pienso que lo importante es tener una buena base de colaboradores, independientemente de que trabajen en otras wikis. ¿Que se supone que deben hacer estos usuarios? ¿editar artículos en una wiki que no es la suya? ¿porque? ¿con que motivo? ¿deben editar artículos en la wiki española, la misma que nos niega el derecho a tener nuestra propia wiki? No parece muy justo --[[User:84.121.5.254|84.121.5.254]] 20:33, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
::::::: Reitero lo dicho antes. No se trata de un "vota por mi", sino de gente que podría ayudar potencialmente en la edición de artículos. No se si esperabas que la wiki murciana tenga igual número de colaboradores que la española. Eso sería imposible, ya que hablamos de cientos de millones de hablantes del español e infinitamente menos gente en murciano. Por otra parte, me parece bueno el argumento de que no tenemos una normalización (y esperaba creeme que lo diéseis), pero eso no pareció ser un inconveniente para crear una wiki aragonesa ¿crees que la primera opción de algún zaragozano va a ser leer los artículos en aragonés en vez de en castellano?. Por lo tanto, como comprenderás, es normal que vea que existe una discriminación en este caso hacia el murciano. Y existir una comunidad murcianohablante existe, que sea pequeña vale, pero la hay. Te invito a que vayas a los pueblos murcianos y que oigas a la gente hablar, probablemente así veras el hecho diferencial, el que una lengua o habla tenga mala prensa no puede implicar el negar su existencia. Y lógicamente no me tomo esto como un agravio a título personal, pero no puedo evitar el ver cierta discriminación hacia el murciano, como ya te he dicho antes, porque hay wikipedias en lenguas mucho menos diferenciadas y menos habladas y en este caso veo que precisamente los compañeros de la wiki española son los que están poniendo más palos en las ruedas de la dignificación del murciano. Lo que si que no me vale como argumento es que el léxico murciano se entienda en Jaén como se dice por arriba ¿como no lo van a entender? ¿no forman parte los jiennenses orientales de nuestra misma realidad: La cuenca del Segura?. Se entiende en Jaén oriental como en Orihuela como en Hellín. Lo que si me gustaría dejar claro es que no he tratado de timar a nadie con el tema de los usuarios. Lo digo porque veo que más de uno se ha sentido engañado y se ha llegado a poner en duda mi honestidad. En fin zagal, no quiero aburrirte más con estas historias. Seguiré tratando de avanzar y ejercer mi derecho legítimo a ser escuchado, aunque no se me haga ni puñetero caso :) No hago mal a nadie reintentándolo. Un saludo --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 12:07, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 
::: Taichi, I want to answer you with any intention to look for polemic. Where is it telling that anybody must first have contributed in one of the wikimedia project in order to be able to participate in a new language request? I say it because in [[#Procedure]] section I don't see anything like to such condition. Perhaps the policy about the creation of new language version is in another page?. Anyway, I wouldn't consider this condition as reasonable because those linguistic comunity that doesn't understand (or doesn't have interest to contribute in) any other language, so they cannot (don't want to) participate in other language wiki wouldn't be able to create new wikis. --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 10:55, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
== Part II of the murcian ongoing ==
 
The reason why I stroke through anonymous contributions with their commentaries to the voting relies on the principle explained at the beginning of this page, according to which the voters must have a page in meta. Which of those anonymous users had a page in meta? I also request for neutral judgement over what is happening here. Every single edition I stroke through was made by users whose none existence as users I checked previously by going to the user page leading the link they have provided.
*'''SUPPORT''' -- wikipedia en llengua maere!! --[[User:Node ue|Node ue]] 01:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 
We urgently need a clear and specific policy about who and how are allowed to vote here to avoid the abuse being committed in this voting can happen again.
* Murcian was moved from the aproved list because the "bogus users" matter, what has been demostred that there are real usernames... What's the problem now? Why Murcian wikipedia is still denied?
**Actually no one has fixed the "bogus users" matter - most of them are still not real usernames. --[[User:Chamdarae|Chamdarae]] 19:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
***Hi Chamadrae, the best way to verify this is: Were the support votes added by individual anonymous users, or one person?
 
About Martorell's request, I better don't comment it. Rather I prefer strongly suggest to anyone interested in helping to solve the mess in this voting to check the history of it, to check who are voting in favor and opposed and how they voted. I also think that it is really necessary a checkuser over the editors of this voting, because, not only me, but there are many who suspect that certain users voted with different names. --[[User:Javier Carro|Javier Carro]] 09:05, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''SUPPORT''','' Chieríos compaeriquios: Leyo er murciano y l'ascribo (anque una jelepa).Lo platico (solitiquiamente ambunas feces)''. (Dear wikipedists: I am able to read and write murcian and I speak it sometimes) --[[User:85.97.78.137|85.97.78.137]] 09:07, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 
: All those users who have supported this proposal have a user account registered in meta. Because of those pages aren't edited it isn't meaning these aren't registered. You can see on the toolbox of every userpage that if there is a user's contribution view link, it's meaning it's registered.
*'''OPPOSE''' hyperfragmentation. Next Cartagenese Wikipedia; at least it will have an historical foundation. (Pity that Cantonese has already been taken) [[User:80.58.192.196|80.58.192.196]] 18:21, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
:: Cartagena never have had their own language. Cartagena nunca ha tenido su propia lengua!!. Seamos serios. Este argumento es la mayor parida de todas. Menuda tontería. ¿Jugamos a tergiversar la realidad?
 
: If you suspect about sockpupeeting, you're in your right to ask for checkuser, but until it isn't factual, you have no right to edit comments and disrupt voting made by others, it's considered vandalism. Please, [[:en:Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]], until you have other facts at least. --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 11:51, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''SUPPORT''' -- I'm really surprised since Murcian is not in the aproved list yet. It has been completely proved that most of the supporters were real nicknames. The Murcian speakers and our language are being victims of many dreadful prejudices and a huge ignorance about this issue. For this reason I claim for our right of having a Wikipedia in our mother tongue: the Murcian language. Many important linguists, such as Francisco Martínez Torres and Antonio Sánchez Verdú, among others, have stated that Murcian is a true language fully structured and it has a huge number of speakers (me included). Many opposed comments which I have read here are false. Furthermore, these opposed people just seem to hate our language. Therefore I claim for common sense and the creation of our Murcian Wikipedia. Lastly, I have to say that all the supporters are looking forward to working in this great project![[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 17:19, 8 November 2005 (UTC) (Real Nickname)
 
:: You are right, the non anonymous votings I stroke through were registered. <u>I assume my mistake</u> caused by the links they provided. Those links guided to non existing users in other Wikimedia projects. Anyone can check it in my polemical edition. Nevertheless, I think it is not fair that voting here is so easy to manipulate like creating as many user pages as necessary. I suposse that even the Checkuser mechanisms would not detect the cases of false users created with dynamic IP addresses. Am I right? --[[User:Javier Carro|Javier Carro]] 12:16, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
:: Chapeau... i just can say that!!
 
::: Don't worry, I would mistake too as easy as you did, because the participation of registered users supporting this proposal seem to be done from very newbie persons, editing in not appropiate sections of the page, wrong signatures, and etc. Because of it I did not considered your edits as vandalism, I've pressumed good faith on you too.
 
::: And about checkuser, I don't know the utility of checkuser, so I don't know the efficience of it. Anyway, I think that opposing this proposal because of suspecting "sockpupeeting" is a futile struggle, and we should discuss about the kind of the proposal. If Murcian Wikipedia is actually promoted only by political reasons, I'm sure it will go to inactive, and it will go to be down, so I'm not worried about it. --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 12:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''SUPPORT''' I agree, Murcian is our language. And I would like to support this project, because our language deserve to be recognized. Greetings from Lorca (Murcia).Daryo.
 
: '''Support''' - [[User:Servien|Servien]] 14:33, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' This ''language'' is too close to Spanish to be considered independent. There's no natural use of this ''language'' besides folkloric festivities or academic work: Spanish/Castillian is mostly the one an unique language spoken in Murcia region (Catalan is spoken by few in an isolated valley) and what some people think they talk or use is only a mild dialectal and lexical variety of Spanish no more distant from the standard than ''Porteño'' or other South American or Spanish regional speeches. The ''true'' Murcian ''language'' seen in [http://www.llenguamaere.com] and other sites should be understood as fictional or dead. -- [[es:Usuario:JRGL|J]] 13:02, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 
* '''SUPPORT''' Murcian people want to have a Wikipedia in their language.... MURCIAN WIKIPEDIA NOW! Por la dinidá e nuestra llengua, por la llibertá e nuestro pueblo! --[[User:Todmir|Todmir]] 15:52, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
**'''Support'''--[[Aranrui|Aranrui]] 01:25, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
 
*'''Comment''' A long time ago, after Chamdarae identified the bogus user names in the support list, someone edited this section to substitute "real" for "bogus", in a childish attempt to claim that those user names are valid. Alquerias Llibre, a user who voted in favour of the Murcian wikipedia... before registering as a user in a Wikipedia claims above that "It has been completely proved that most of the supporters were real nicknames" (!), as if editing a list of unregistered names to add "(real username)" behind the bogus names were to miraculously make those names valid. I have identified the bogus names again, and will count the support and oppose votes that belong to valid users once more. I have expressed myself against a wikipedia in Murcian, but I accept that there may be a lot of people who honestly support it, but please please follow the rules and vote as registered users. Names in red or fake links to would-be names in different wikipedias cannot be accepted. And, frankly, if at some point there was a deluge of registrations and votes in favour of this new wikipedia, I'm afraid the suspicion of sockpuppetry would be quite inevitable. --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 00:22, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
 
En apoyo de la Llengua Murciana.
*'''OPPOSE''' It's totally nonsense. --[[User:Javier Carro|Javier Carro]] 13:16, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
--[[User:Cicucho|Cicucho]] 12:28, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 
<br>
:I have recounted the number of support and opposition votes in the above discussion. If we don't accept votes that correspond to IP addresses, user names in red, and bogus user names, there are, if I have counted correctly, 9 votes in support of the Murcian wikipedia (Assarbe, Joanot, Pasha, Guardamarenc, Alba, Charlitos, Orhan_Akademi, Alquerias Llibre and Node ue) and 5 votes against it (Chamdarae, Ecemaml, AngelRiesgo, Javier Carro and J). I have had the generosity to count user Alba (which looks more like an abandoned user name in Spanish Wikipedia. Please, Alba, correct me if I'm wrong) and Alquerias Llibre (who registered as a user in the Spanish wkipedia after having a vote cast here in his or her name). I see that red names supporting the Murcian wikipedia continue to appear. The whole thing about all the bogus names is quite silly, actually. If there are so many Murcian speakers who want to take part in this project, why on earth can't they register as users in Meta and speak for themselves? --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 00:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
*:: I'm really pleased for your "generosity to count" me as a real user name, you are so kind, thank you very much. I do not know what I would do without your generosity. Thank God that the guardians of the Spanish language have come to save our sinful souls and to order our destiny. I'm a real registered user, do not doubt it, please. --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 12:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 
<br>
:::Perdona, pero o yo no entiendo cómo funciona wikipedia o eres tú el que no lo entiende. Cualquiera puede consultar el historial de ediciones y ver que el primer voto de Alquerias Llibre no corresponde a una edición de un usuario llamado "Alquerias Llibre", lo cual hace que, según yo lo entiendo, el voto no sea válido. Sinceramente, no entiendo qué quieres decir. El voto de "Alba" tampoco fue hecho por un usuario "Alba". Por eso, esos dos votos me han parecido sospechosos. Mientras que todas mis ediciones pueden comprobarse revisando el historial y viendo que, efectivamente, quien firma como "AngelRiesgo" es, pues eso, "AngelRiesgo", éste no ha sido tu caso. Dices que eres un usuario real, y no dudo que eres una persona de carne y hueso, pero desde luego no eres un usuario registrado en Meta, ya que tu nombre sale en rojo. Entonces, ¿Por qué diablos no te registras y votas como usuario registrado para que no haya estos malentendidos? No se puede decir que son usuarios reales nombres que no corresponden a los autores de las ediciones de las páginas, hombre. ¿Es tan difícil de entender? --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 01:13, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
:: <center><font color="green">'''(Amigoh de Murcia: Ehque uhtedeh podriaih ayudah <br>tamien i poneh suh botoh pa la Gwiki andalusa, <br>lo apresiariamoh munchisimo? <br>Nohotroh deborberemoh er faboh tamien!)'''</font></center>
<br>
 
Without consideration of whether the language should exist or not, the vote above does not seem fair to me at all. I am not convinced anonymous votes should be authorized and I am totally convinced sockpuppetry is very unfair. Per one participant request, I run a quick ip check over some usernames, and consider there is high chance several votes are from the same person. I raised the issue on foundation-l@wikimedia.org [[User:Anthere|Anthere]] 17:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
::::Te pido disculpas porque acabo de comprobar que sí estás registrado en Meta, es sólo que al no haber editado tu página de usuario tu nombre sale en rojo. Ha sido un error mío en este caso, pero sí es verdad que en tu primer voto no estabas registrado con ese nombre. Pero vale, muy bien, acepto que tu voto es completamente válido. Sin embargo, no lo son los de usuarios como Todmir y compañía, que ni existían ni creo que existan ahora como usuarios registrados de ninguna wikipedia. Tal vez tú no hayas tenido nada que ver, pero a los partidarios de la wikipedia en murciano os resta mucha credibilidad el que algún desaprensivo se haya puesto a añadir nombres de usuario inventados. Al menos yo no voy por ahí inventándome siete u ocho nombres de usuario para hacer bulto. --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 01:32, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 
:: WHAT?? are you supposing that all this users are invented by one person? I think openly Wiki doesn't want a wiki in murcian. This project should be aproved 2 months ago. The users are REAL persons. They haven't already a place where work, this place would be the MURCIAN WIKI.
::::: Bueno, gracias por la puntualización. Acabo de editar mi página de usuario para que mi nombre no aparezca en rojo, ya que empiezo a estar bastante cansado de tener que demostrar una y otra vez la autenticidad de mi firma. Además, para que no haya dudas, he borrado mi firma en la lista de arriba y he vuelto a firmar por si acaso no lo hice bien la vez anterior. En lo que respecta al resto de usuarios, no tengo ni la menor idea de ellos, yo sólo puedo hablar por mí mismo: firmé yo solito y por nadie más. Dudo mucho que no existan dichas personas, estoy convencido de que simplemente no supieron utilizar este sistema correctamente o no supieron registrarse. Lo que pasa es que aprovechais la situación para pisotearnos este ilusionante proyecto... En fin, yo aprovecho para animar a todos los que firmaron al principio para que se vuelvan a registrar correctamente, si es que no lo hicieron (que lo dudo). --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 02:33, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 
* '''SUPPORT''', well, what can I say about this User [[User:Felipealvarez|Felipealvarez]]...whether we all approve this request or not, I can't accept the way he adressed to the murcian people...I really believe in this project...but please do not confuse a person who speaks murcian dialect with an illiterate person, P-L-E-A-S-E...[[es:User:Orhan_akademi|Orhan_akademi]] 14:50, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' --[[User:Sanbec|Sanbec]] 16:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' [[User:Lourdes Cardenal|Lourdes Cardenal]] 17:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC) Hago mías las palabras de ÁngelRiesgo
*'''OPPOSE''' [[User:Felipealvarez|Felipealvarez]] 19:46, 14 November 2005 (UTC) What would be the next? Puente-Vallecano, Villa-Vallecano, Villaverdeño, Carabanchelero, Fuencarralero, Toledano, or Madripo-pijeño from Barrio Salamanca? Murciano / Panocho it's only a dialect, Porteño in Buenos Aires it's more different by far from Standart Spanish than Murcian Dialect. These people that think they are writting in murciano, it's analphabet people that only would get the basic education degree with the new educative law, because they absolutly don't know Spanish grammar and ortographic rules.
*:: The easiest statement to oppose the Murcian Wikipedia is just to say that we are "analphabet people that only would get the basic education degree with the new educative law [...] they absolutly don't know Spanish grammar and ortographic rules"!!!! Not only you judge us and insult us calling us analphabet people, but you also state that we don't know Spanish properly. Do not judge me without knowing anything about me. Fistly, I did not study the new educative law, I studied at the former educative system (EGB, BUP, COU...). And lastly, I know perfectly how to write Spanish since I studied Spanish Philology at the University of Murcia. Anyway, the only argumentation against Murcian Wikipedia that I have read here is full of prejudices, insults and total ignorance about Murcian language. --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 12:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 
* '''COMMENT''': Accusations of foul play have been bandied about by both sides of the debate, and I see that some of the names originally identified as bogus names by me and Chamdarae have come to life as Meta users claiming that they exist and we are being unfair and doing nasty things. I'm tired of this debate, but since I was one of the people who first raised the accusation of sockpuppetry, I feel I have to at least explain why I said that the user names were bogus names and why I still think they must be regarded as such. First, the problem is not whether these user names exist as Meta user names as of today, but rather that their original votes didn't correspond to these users, but actually came from editions by (at most) a couple of people. I don't really understand why some of the supporters of the Murcian wikipedia insist in denying the facts. After all, it just takes a while to check the history of edits and see what happened initially. Here are the facts, as I see them: The proposal for the Murcian wikipedia was moved to the "approved" section after it had received nine supporting votes. This was the state of the vote on 1 September: [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages&oldid=202296#Murcian_.288.29]. Now this looks fine until one checks that, apart from Assarbe and Joanot, both of them registered users at Meta, the other six names have been added with a wikipedia prefix in front of their names and point to user pages in the Catalan, Spanish and Occitan wikipedias. This could be acceptable, I suppose, if it weren't for the fact that only Guardamarenc and Alba actually correspond to existing users in the wikipedias they claim to come from, and Alba has no user page and no history of contributions at all. Things get even worse when one checks the history of edits and sees that all these votes actually come from two users: an IP 84.121.10.206 and Assarbe himself. By checking the contributions of 84.121.10.206 ([//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=84.121.10.206]), one can see that this user added the votes with the names Pasha, Todmir, Alba, Mangas and Guardamarenc. Anyone with the patience to go through the different edits will see that the names initially appeared in red, but Mr. 84.121.10.206 found that by adding a prefix "es:", "oc:" or "ca:" before the names, they appeared in a nice shade of blue. In this way, between 30 August and 1 September, Murcian went from two supporting votes (Assarbe and Joanot) to seven. Mr. 84.121.10.206 edited the support label to indicate that there were eight support votes, actually one more than was the case. But this was promptly fixed by Assarbe, who added a vote for a user with the name of GranaYOro ([//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages&diff=prev&oldid=202183]) and on 3 September decided to add a new vote, this time with the name of Foro-Fico ([//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Requests_for_new_languages/Murcian&diff=prev&oldid=203209]). Now if I am misinterpreting anything, feel free to correct me. I didn't want to get to this level of pointing fingers and showing links to edit histories, but the accusations of foul play and the appearances of "people" like GranaYOro, Todmir or Foro-Fico saying "who said that I don't exist?" have got on my nerves a bit, to be honest. The only real votes I can see in the original list of support correspond to Assarbe and Joanot. Guardamarenc does indeed exist as a user in the Catalan wikipedia, which begs the question of whether 84.121.10.206 could be him/her. As for Alba, since the vote came from 84.121.10.206 it shouldn't be accepted, and the lack of a contribution history makes me suspect that it is just a coincidence that 84.121.10.206 used a name that had actually been registered at some point in the past. Again, if I am getting any facts wrong, please correct me. I see that all these names that were originally used by 84.121.10.206 and Assarbe now exist as Meta users, but this can only reinforce the suspicion of sockpuppetry. Aside from my personal view about a wikipedia in Murcian, proponents should not forget that this is not just about getting a few tens, or hundreds for that matter, of funny names giving support votes. In the end, the final say about whether a wikipedia in Murcian should exist rests with the Wikimedia board and given the lack of consensus and the shenanigans that have been going on here, I don't think they will feel very sympathetic to this proposal. One of the things that worry me about this vote (or the one on Andalusian below) is that it seems to refute the idea that a wiki community can discuss things peacefully and in a spirit of accceptance of the rules. I have no problem in accepting a wikipedia in Murcian if a majority of people want it, but please, please, don't get into personal attacks with accusations of foul play when it is the original proponents of the Murcian wikipedia who have been responsible for most, if not all, of the foul play in this discussion. --[[User:AngelRiesgo|AngelRiesgo]] 01:52, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Really the Murcian is a Spanish dialect, maybe exist some dialects from Spanish with better grammatic and literary indivualism than Murcian.--[[User:Taichi|Taichi - (^_^)]] 05:17, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
*: '''COMMENT''' You said: "''I see that all these names that were originally used by 84.121.10.206 and Assarbe now exist as Meta users, but this can only reinforce the suspicion of sockpuppetry.''" I still want to '''''pressuming good faith''''': These names would be real persons who expressed to Assarbe their support to this project, and Assarbe added it himself. Of course it can't be accepted as valid supports, but I think it wouldn't be a sockpuppetry, for me, it's more factually these are very "newbie" persons who doesn't know yet the rules, the wiki codes, etc... of wikimedia projects. Why I'm pressuming good faith? Please, go ahead to [[User talk:Assarbe]] and you see there are statements from persons offering their support to this project. Just the persons with the same name as Assarbe added them here. And now, after a month, those persons could have been realized which is the valid process (and, why not?, perhaps they have been learning things related to wiki world), and registered their own user accounts here. Of course, you can also think, that Assarbe was writting himself in his own user talk page simulating "virtual persons", or you can also say that someone was registering more than one account. Ok, if you have some credible fact, I will stop to pressuping good faith. --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 13:34, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' --Only it's a Spanish dialect. [[User:Rata de Biblioteca|Rata de Biblioteca]] 10:50, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
*: '''ANOTHER COMMENT''' You said:"''one can see that this user added the votes with the names Pasha, Todmir, Alba, Mangas and Guardamarenc''" Quiero precisar que he hecho el voto "Pasha" al fin del mes de agosto y que después no he mas tocado los votos. Quizas, una otra persona ha cambiando el texto. Pero, existo yo, Pasha, y soy un contributor regular de la wiki en occitan. Pensaba que era suficiente ser registrado en una wiki. Entonces, por supuesto, esta contribucion sera el de 82.XX.XX o no sé que. Me interesa una wiki en murciano porque estoy de origen murciana. Si se necesita que sea registrado en la meta, digamelo. --[[oc:User:Pasha|Pasha]] --00:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC)~
*'''SUPPORT''' -- It is a demonstrated fact that the distinction between a language and a dialect is completely arbitrary and just political. Murcian has all the features to be considered a language, the problem is only political and a fact of identity. The people who claim that Murcian is a dialect just want to underestimate the value of Murcian language towards Spanish, you only have to read their argumentation in order to realize about this. Furthermore, it is also a fact that all these people come from the Spanish Wikipedia and they are always fighting against the creation of other wikipedias in minority languages of Spain. --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 13:15, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''OPPOSE''' Por favor, 3,5 millones de hablantes ¿dónde?, deben incluir al 90% de castellano hablantes de Alicante capital. Conozco a gente de Murcia y no hablan, ni por asomo, de la forma en la que se escribe el panocho, tienen, es cierto, palabras propias, como hay en todas partes, y un acento peculiar, pero vamos, no es un idioma, es un dialecto del castellano. --[[User:84.120.24.85|84.120.24.85]] 15:50, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 
El censo lingüístico dels Països Catalans se considera de 11 millones de habitantes, que es la población de las comunidades de Cataluña, Valencia y Baleares (amén de los restantes territorios). Los 3 millones de habitantes corresponden al área de influencia donde el léxico es el mismo, no estrictamente al número de hablantes.
*'''SUPPORT''' Buenas, soy un nacionalista murciano mas. Por lo visto hay que escribir para que algunos crean de una vez que somos de carne y hueso. No se si he seguido los pasos correctos para APOYAR la llengua murciana , pero esa es mi posicion. I SUPPORT THE MURCIAN LANGUAGE ;) Murcia*Llibre
: '''Oppose:''' I don't see what all the fuss is about. There are no (or very few) votes in favor of the proposal. In a situation such as this, it's not about presuming good faith. Presuming good faith refers to when a user realizes a malicious act and one presumes that it was an accident/that he had good intentions. To presume good faith in this case would be to say that the user really had been expressed support by 20 different users and that he, accordingly, added their names to the list. In any case, the user would be asked to revert the edits, leave his own signature, and let everyone else vote for themselves. We would never simply leave it the way it is. Imagine me registering 20 times to vote for the U.S. president with the argument "ah, don't you worry about that, my friends told me who they supported". I would be turned down in a flash and perhaps arrested. Why are the invalid votes not striked and if there are true supporters, they can come and reactivate their vote?
:: '''SUPPORT''' Excuse me, you are wrong (and an anonimous nickname). You are late since all the support nicknames have been already registered and they stated that they were real nicknames and they support the creation of the Murcian Wiki. Stop that because we have already solved the problem that you have stated, please. --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 00:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 
* Compaeres, si con 27 votos contra 12 la wiki murciana aún no se ha aprobado, creo que ya nos podemos hacer una idea de lo que sucederá. Esta proposal lleva camino de hacerse eterna en este apartado. Aquí se dan motivos de oppose de los cuales creo que los de la wiki española se dejan el más importante... el que les gusta aplastar lenguas más pequeñas, ¿no es lo que llevan haciendo siglos? . Pero vaya, creo que el argumento de los usuarios falsos les está cundiendo y muy bien. Espero que ningun murciano con dignidad colabore jamás con la wiki castellana, la misma que nos lleva puteando de lo lindo ya casi tres meses. Y en lenguaje cervantino lo digo... Ahora, si algún compañero quiere traducir esto al inglés, perfecto. A mi no se me da muy bien
*'''SUPPORT''' I just want to support that people who are defending and promoting our cultural backgropund in Murcia. It´s the same that will have a Wikipedia in murcian or not, as well the oficial recognition, we know who we are and we know what murcian is and what meaning for us. Anyway, thanks to everyone who is making possible that the murcian not die. I´m a real and registered user and i sign in my own name. Un salúo y un envión mu juerte pa tos dende Venezuela, que no sus pare naide!. Pacorro
 
===Why should the Murcian Wiki not be approved?===
*'''SUPPORT''' Hola, yo soy un murciano.Los unicos analafabetos son los que no son capaces de reconocer el la diferencia entre el murciano y el castellano. Reto a quien piense lo contrario que venga a murcia pero no al la capital, haber si es capaz de entender el murciano, el cual tiene una fonetica y un vocabulario diferente en muchos asectos al del castellano. No os opongais desde la ignorancia o la envidia. I SUPPORT THE MURCIAN LANGUAGE. mmoreloz
# Murcian is not a language by anyone's standards. The Spanish government does not recognize it, the CIA does not recognize it, nobody does. Not even the "Murcian speakers" (besides the ¿3? that have voted here).
:: '''SUPPORT''' Excuse me, you are completely wrong. All the users are real, and nobody signed for me, I signed in the right way. And also, you forget that there is an asociation called "L'Ajuntaera pa la plática, el esturrie y'el escarculle la llengua murciana" which has more than 1,000 members, and all of them recognize, defend and speak Murcian language. Moreover, I know many organizations that recognize our language. You are lying! Be fair and go to your Spanish wikipedia. --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 01:10, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 
# The language is not documented. There is no official Murcian dictionary, nor a decent one, on that matter. The most notable ones are parts of blogs, or geocities sites.
*'''SUPPORT''' Soy murciano y mi lengua madre es el murciano panocho, desde que nací hace 28 años, y eso no quita que haya aprendido correcto y perfectísimo castellano o español o como quieran llamarlo, pero la lengua que mamé de mi madre y de mi abuela es el murciano. Apoyo incondicionalmente a mi lengua madre, el murciano (N) MURCIA LIBRE --[[User:nikolo|nikolo]]
:: '''SUPPORT''' You mean in the internet, but you do not mention the great dictionaries that we already have. For instance:
- Sánchez Verdú, Antonio y Martínez Torres, Francisco. '''''Diccionario Popular de Nuestra Tierra (Murciano-Castellano/Castellano-Murciano)'''''. La Opinión. 1999.
- Molina, Patricio. '''''Parablero murciano'''''. Ediciones Mediterráneo. Murcia. 1991.
- Ruiz Marín, Diego. '''''Vocabulario de las hablas murcianas. Consejería de Presidencia de la Región de Murcia'''''. Murcia. 2000.
- Serrano Botella, Ángel. '''''El Diccionario Icue'''''. Habla popular de Cartagena. Asociación de Libreros de Cartagena. Cartagena. 1997.
- Sevilla, Alberto. Vocabulario murciano. Novograf. Murcia. 1990.
- Vela Urrea, José María. '''''Así se habla en Murcia: vocabulario murciano con ejemplos referenciados y dos vocabularios (murciano-castellano y castellano-murciano).''''' El autor. Murcia. 2002.
- Gómez Ortín, Francisco. '''''Vocabulario del noroeste murciano'''''. Editora Regional de Murcia. Murcia. 1991.
- Sánchez Verdú, Antonio y Martínez Torres, Francisco. '''''Gran Diccionario Popular de Cartagena y su Comarca'''''. La Opinión. 2002.
- Ortuño Palao, Miguel y Ortín Marco, Carmen. '''''Diccionario del habla de Yecla'''''. Academia Alfonso X. Murcia. 1999.
- Ramírez Xarriá, Jerónimo. '''''El panocho: vocabulario popular murciano y otros apuntes de interés'''''. Murcia. 1927.
- García Soriano, Justo. '''''Vocabulario murciano. Con un estudio preliminar y un apéndice de documentos regionales'''''. Bermejo. Madrid. 1932.
- Sánchez Martínez, Agustín [et alii]. '''''Carcabulario fabético-panocho'''''. Edicao a los operaores der junema y aficionaos que lo necesiten. A.P.O.P. Murcia. 1999.--[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 01:10, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 
# It splits Wikipedia unnecessarily. The Spanish Wikipedia is already split in enough pieces. Imagine if we split the English Wikipedia into African American Slang, Californian African American Slang, New York African American Slang, Texan redneck slang, Texan gentlemen slang, Boston slurrs, English Gentlemen's English, English prisoner's English....you get the point. The English Wikipedia would be heavily hit. This is not good for the already existent Spanish/Catalan wikis. A major goal of Wikipedia is to provide free knowledge to anyone who wants it in their native language. First of all, Murcian is not a language, and second of all, the native language of all supposed Murcian speakers is undoubtedly Spanish, that's what they're taught in school anyway. Is a Murcian going to understand an intent at phoneticizing the way he speaks better than Spanish?
*'''SUPPORT''' Soy cartagenero, que es una forma de ser murciano, cantonal auténtico, es decir, republicano y federalista, no meapilas ni provincialista de esos reaccionarios. En mi trozo de tierra, se dice babaol a lo mismo que en otros arrecujones se le menta ababol, ababola,... Me gusta la diversidad. Y lo mismo que defiendo la biodiversidad, también hay que defender la etnodiversidad, la riqueza cultural de nuestra tierra, nuestra lengua madre, y todas sus variantes. antonetevive
:: '''SUPPORT''' That's just your own personal opinion!Not a fact! --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 01:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''OPPOSE''' [[User:Anna|Anna]] 21:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC) An absolute nonsense. Defending Murcia culture has nothing to do with creating a dialectical wikipedia.
:: '''COMMENT''' There '''is''' an Indian English request
SOY IACIN: Estimados amigos, es verdad que el murciano se habla en una zona con 3.500.000 de personas; de ellas ahi quien habla ingles, ruso, o analfabetos, pero para crear wikipedia en catalan tambien se ha utilizado el censo de Los Paises Catalanes y no se han restado las comarcas castellano hablantes, ni los analfabetos, ni los inmigrantes...; ¿Cuanta gente habla Murciano en el mundo?, pues solo podemos decir que con encuestas se aproxima al 10% de esa poblacion, aunque entre el 76-80% de estos 3 millones y medio utilizan al menos 200 de sus más de 5000 palabras exclusivas.
# There is no writing form. English, Spanish, Catalan, Galician, German...languages have rules of grammar and spelling. Murcian appears to be a simple immitation of the way Murcians speak. This is comparable to me writing "Naw, dawg, I eint doin dat, das foolish". Can this string of errors be corrected using a set of rules besides that of English? Did I err in writing "eint" instead of "ain't"? Is 'das' spelled 'dats'? But I don't pronounce the 'T'...
:: '''SUPPORT''' No way! You do not know what you are talking about. There is a long tradition of writing in Murcian language. Ok, there is not a official form, but there is a high fixed agreement in grammatical rules among all the Murcian writers. Two centuries of literary tradition!!! --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 01:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
# There is virtually no verifiable vote in favor of the proposal (1-3 is my estimate)
:: '''SUPPORT''' Just count again the support votes and check if they are real nicknames. You will see that they are real registered names. Stop lying, please! Do not be scared since we will neither split nor destroy your Spanish language. --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 01:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
# The proposal is fishy by any definition.
:: '''SUPPORT''' Your personal opinion again, not a fact! --[[User:Alquerias Llibre|Alquerias Llibre]] 01:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
# The same user in which we are to presume good faith edits his own discussion page, trying to make it look like there are supporters of the Murcian WIkipedia. ([//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAssarbe&diff=205289&oldid=204359])
# The user does not respond to "other users" asking how they can help, despite the fact that he asks for help. Of course, why would he respond to himself...(sorry to not presume good faith. I presumed it, and proved myself wrong)--[[User:Orgullomoore|Orgullomoore]] 10:08, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
'''COMMENT''' I really wrote this question and i wrote an email to Assarbe. So he answer me by e-mail and that doesn't appear on the user page... --[[oc:User:Pasha|Pasha]]--00:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)~
::: Your arguments are not at all difficult to prove invalid and if my preocupation were that this proposal would be approved, I would do so. Contrarily, I trust that the Board will google your "dictionaries" (I did some and found dictionaries that Señor Llibre describes as "great" and found 1 page documents with 50 entries. Yes, most of them ''are'' online), investigate the obvious sockpuppetry issues, and will preserve the original goal of Wikipedia, avoiding diversion down regionalist paths. Additionally, If I had the ''ganas'', I would expostulate your screaming (periods don't bite) at me to "go back to my Spanish Wikipedia" (I am actually a native of Spring, Texas, United States of America), but I don't. Saludos--[[User:Orgullomoore|Orgullomoore]] 06:02, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 
* Compaeres, si con 27 votos contra 12 la wiki murciana aún no se ha aprobado, creo que ya nos podemos hacer una idea de lo que sucederá. Esta proposal lleva camino de hacerse eterna en este apartado. Algunos dicen que va a ocupar más espacio escrito que la biblia. Aquí se dan motivos de oppose de los cuales creo que los de la wiki española se dejan el más importante... el que les gusta aplastar lenguas más pequeñas, ¿no es lo que llevan haciendo siglos? . Pero vaya, creo que el argumento de los usuarios falsos les está cundiendo y muy bien. Espero que ningun murciano con dignidad colabore jamás con la wiki castellana, la misma que nos lleva puteando de lo lindo ya casi tres meses. Y en lenguaje cervantino lo digo... Ahora, si algún compañero quiere traducir esto al inglés, perfecto. A mi no se me da muy bien
*'''SUPPORT''' [[User:Iacin|Iacin]] 08:05, 18 November 2005 (UTC) La pregunta es la siguiente, ¿Por que no tenemos derecho a defender nuestras costumbres, gastronomia, leyendas, y nuestra LENGUA?. ¿Quien es el que niega la identidad de tantos millones de personas por subjetivamente pensar que es politica?, ¿no es todo politica?, Si, todo es politica, el que usted nos discrimine y dude, es su politica. Otra cosa, dialecto son TODAS las lenguas, pues todas vienen de otras; pero el murciano es dialecto del latinP, aragones y mozarabe y por lo tanto merece una wikipedia.
:* [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=compadre Compadres], if with 27 votes versus 12 the Murcian Wiki has still not been approved, I think we can get an idea of what's going to happen. This proposal is on it's way to becoming eternal in this section. Some say it will occupy more written space than the Bible. Of the opposing reasons here, I think those of the Spanish WIkipedia leave us the most important one... that they like to smash smaller languages, isn't that what they've been doing for centuries? But goodness, I think the argument about false users is gaining ground, and quite well. I hope that no Murcian with dignity ever collaborates with the Spanish Wikipedia, the same one that's been screwing us over for almost three months now. And in [[w:Miguel de Cervantes|Cervantes]]' words I say it... Now, if some compadre wants to translate this into English, perfect. It doesn't go over so well for me.''--<small>Traducción libre y mala del compadre [[User:Orgullomoore|Orgullomoore]], sin comentario alguno.</small>''
 
Because all language have equal oportunities to aproved.
* Yo también comienzo a estar harto de este JUEGO SUCIO de la wiki española. Ya está bien hombre!!. Esto es de una poca verguenza que clama al cielo. La wiki murciana fue parada con malas artes, un usuario la movió de la lista de aprobadas por un motivo inventado por el y... ¿donde está ese usuario? ¿no quiere dar la cara? ¿donde quedan sus disculpas? que yo sepa no ha vuelto a aparecer. Lo de esta proposal ya raya lo surrealista y lo ilegal. Y nos encargaremos de que todo esto se sepa. Las malas artes, este juego sucio tiene que ser conocido por la sociedad murciana. Señores, un poco más de verguenza y seriedad! Para empezar podríamos empezar por dirigirnos a esa gente que nos pisotea el proyecto, a su página de usuario, a ver que contestan, están haciendo lo que les da la gana y eso no lo podemos consentir --[[User:Assarbe|Assarbe]] 11:35, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 
===Why should MURCIAN WIKI be aproved?===
Because there are 27 users... REAL USERS, you understand?? that want this project and it's more than sure that will be very supporters. And the opposers are, most of them (12), of the SPANISH WIKI. And we kwow why you don't want that this project be aproved.
 
: ¿Como probar que '''algunos''' de estos usuarios son reales, si apenas son IP's, y puede alguno pasarse en vez de usuario registrado como IP y haciendo duplicidad de votos?. Segundo, cual es el odio que se tiene con la wiki española, primero yo soy panameño, yo ni siquiera estoy involucrado en esta enemistad estúpida (sí, es estúpida porque no me imagino que en un país tan pequeño como España, sus propios vecinos se odien mutuamente porque solo hablan una variante del español común); yo sólo he votado en contra porque la verdad las pruebas no son contundentes y no me demuestran claramente que el murciano tenga suficiente criterio lingüístico como para hacer una Wikipedia, y que esto parece un truco desesperado de algunos para hacer sus caprichos personales, por eso he votado en contra. A mi no me vengan con cosas que yo no soy español y que no debo meter narices, yo soy colaborador de la wiki en ladino, y a mi me gusta esa versión de la wiki, pero una wiki en murciano me parece un poco surrealista.--'''[[User:Taichi|Taichi]]''' - ([[User talk:Taichi|あ!]]) 21:18, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Well... If this proccess is presumed as irregular or not I don't want to make an opinion about this. Perhaps it would be regular, but Murcian language have enough reasons to have their own project. If you read some text from http://www.llenguamaere.com, such the followin text i.e.:
 
: '''Murcian''': ''Mesmicamente se pritende qu'er murciano, tan orviao munchas añás, güerva a zarpullir con la juerza que ya tiniba en su día y'e la que nus arbullecemos tuiquios los qu'hamos tinío la taina e tiner la nacencia n'este terraje, sin orviar a los que, allegaos d'otros roales, sienten y quién a Murcia como nusotros mesmos.''
 
: '''Spanish''': ''Mismamente se pretende que el murciano, tan olvidado muchos años, vuelva a surgir con la fuerza que ya tenía en su día y de la que nos orgullecemos todos los que hemos tenido la suerte de tener el nacimiento en esta tierra, sin olvidar a los que, llegados de otros lugares, sienten y quieren a Murcia como a nosotros mismos.''
 
The linguistic differences are obvious. Murcian is the most distanced dialect from Spanish, because it's a language transition between catalan, aragonese, mossarabic, and spanish. And because of it, when Murcian particularities are considered as a "bizarre" form of Spanish, and these are being rejected in every Spanish text, so Murcian should have the right to try having its own space itself, as here are Wikipedias in dialects such as Sicilian or Neapolitan. Andalusian case is different, because Andalusian particularities are assumed as Spanish directly. The linguistic status of Ladino (Judeoespañol) is the most likely compared exemple with Murcian, as this language is also a transition dialect of several languages (and they have a Wikipedia too). In the other side, I don't know if proposing a Wikipedia in Murcian would be the correct way... Perhaps it would be better that the first step for Murcian was starting a Wiktionary. --[[User:Martorell|Joanot]] 22:00, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::: Joanot, Sicilian and Neapolitan are not dialects (of Italian). They are separate languages descended from Latin, just as Catalan is distinct from Spanish. --[[User:VingenzoTM|VingenzoTM]]
 
 
Hola: Soy azadares usuaria registrada y estoy a favor de la LLengua Murciana, lengua materna en la que suelo escribir poesía y prosa, negar la existencia de esta lengua vernácula es negar la historia de Murcia, más extensa que la de otras regiones españolas.
--[[User:83.53.93.136|83.53.93.136]] 13:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 
* '''Oppose''' I don't have anything against a Murcian Wikipedia, if someone wants to have it. It would probably be a kind of "creation" of a language (Murcian doesn't have a standard or a literature to speak of) but that should not be necessarily bad. What I oppose is the way this has been handled, sockpuppetry and such, it is not serious and, to me, it forebodes a quite POV future for that Wikipedia. I guess nationalisms have mined linguistic issues. [[:es:Usuario:Ecelan]]
 
"""Support"""
Murcian language it's a language transition between catalan, aragonese, mossarabic, and spanish.It's the language of the murcian people and must be considered to create the Wikipedia in our language.Our language it's our identidy and the language of murcian people so spanish people can't say anything about it.
 
Id con cuidado. Hay un usuario colombiano que hace años que pide hacer una Wikipedia en colombiano. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usuario:HeKeIsDa sinceramente, se entiende menos que el murciano, y según él proviene del castellano.
 
:: '''Support''' Sinceramente, eso que aparece en la wiki colombiana tiene poco de castellano, seguramente será alguna mezcla de "castellano-indígena" en alguna provincia interior. En cualquier caso ¿que tiene que ver que se entienda menos? ¿es esa el requisito último para una wiki? ¿el entenderse más o menos? porque recuerdo la existencia de una wiki aragonesa y asturiana que son bien comprensibles para cualquier castellano-hablante. Cada vez veo excusas menos consistentes.
 
* '''Oppose''': in my humble opinion, a Murcian Wikipedia would be like a bad-writen Spanish Wikipedia. --[[User:Kokoo|Kokoo]] 00:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 
* '''Oppose''': Exactly. The next thing we'd be doing was creating a Wikipedia for the language spoken in our shire. Besides, aragonés and asturiano are as much dialects as Murciano. Two wrongs don't make one right. There are four languages in the Spanish State: Español, Català, Euskera, Galego. Final. Whoever contradicts this is either blatantly ignorant or just wants to have this for regional pride. -- [[User:Leptictidium|Leptictidium]] 11:37, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
** Chico, informate un poquito y no hables por hablar... que ni el aragones ni el asturiano estén reconocidos como oficiales, no significa que no sean idiomas... ya que están reconocidos como tales por ISO y SIL. Sabemos que te va a costar asumirlo, pèro hay vida después de Catalunya, y el catalán no es el único idioma (mira si no el aranés)
** I agree that '''Murcian''' is a *dialect*, but '''Aragonese''' and '''Asturian''' are *languages* on their own right. A language is not only a difference in phonetics or in vocabulary. What makes a language truly independent is its morphosyntaxis, that is, its grammar. Aragonese and Asturian have their own evolution from vulgar Latin. They're even prior to Spanish (Castilian) in many aspects, so how could they be dialects of it? The fact that they are "socially eaten" by Spanish doesn't make them dialects of it, but endangered languages. Murcian, on the contrary, has a Spanish grammar, with a few differences remaining from Old Spanish. Phonetics is different when compared to (Standard) Northern Spanish, but no so much to Southern Spanish (just like Andalusian, Low Extremaduran or Canarian). What makes Murcian a bit different is its vocabulary, resulting from a Mozarabic substract and a blend of Aragonese, Catalan and Medieval Spanish words. It is a distinct variety in its own right, but not a language, linguistically speaking. This said, should I oppose to a Wikipedia in Murcian? No, why? I just don't care. But don't say things like Murcian coming from Latin like Aragonese or Catalan. What's more, from a historical point of view, that doesn't make sense either. Even if we considered Murcian (or Andalusian, or any Latin American variety) a language, it would still come from Castilian, not from Latin, because grammar is Castilian. (Just like Ladino is considered a language by many and clearly comes from old Spanish). Obviously many Southern Spanish words come from other sources (other Latin languages, Amerindian languages in the case of Latin America), but these varieties are morphosyntactically Castilian, that's all. And I'm sorry if I disappoint someone, but I still have to see real serious written proof that Murcian is gramatically different from Spanish. Gramatically, I say. Could someone, for example, simply conjugate the verb "to do" in Murcian, to see it compared to other Iberian languages? I'm always willing to change my mind on this, of course. Good luck, anyway. --E. M.
 
 
- '''Support''' - a lot of native contributors
[[nl:Boudewijn Idema]] , 20:37 (UTC), 7 July 2006.
 
 
Hola a tos. Vide la descusión que der murciano y er panocho s´alleva en esta plana y quisiá yo puer aryuar con er tema en lo que puá; conojo esta llengua y mi enza es aryuar en su mantinencia. ¿Hay ambún llugar po aquí ande se platique esta custión? Sus adejo un mail mío, po si no lo hay: elroxocoxo@hotmail.com.