Talk:National myth: Difference between revisions

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== Myth?? ==

The section about China, what part of [[Sun Yat-sen]] in his role for the creation of the [[Republic of China]] a myth? The wikipedia articles on [[gunpowder]] and [[compass]] clearly indicate those are Chinese inventions. Are we saying these articles presentspresent myths? --[[User:Kvasir|Kvasir]] 02:44, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

''"A national myth is an inspiring, or patriotic story or anecdote that serves as a national symbol of a country, and re-affirms a country's "national values." A national myth may sometimes take the form of a 'national epic'."

This definition, in the first line of the article, doesn't seem to be in consistent use throughout the article. Several of the "myths" are very dubious examples of "national myths", and display an obvious USA-centrism in their much wider interpretation of the term for that section than for any other sections. See ''"Rosa Parks' resistance to compulsory racial segregation in the Montgomery, Alabama bus system is celebrated as the spark of the American Civil Rights Movement. Certain elements of the story have been arguably mythologized, however—Parks was an NAACP activist, and not the first to challenge segregation laws on a Montgomery bus or otherwise."'' If we included every significant figure in every nation's history whose importance has (debatably) been exaggerated or whose every minor background detail is not universally known, we'll need to make this page two hundred times as long, because countless other historical figuers have been similarly romanticized in terms of importance alone. I thought a national myth had to have ''elements of the story'' that were idealized, not just the importance of the story itself in a certain part of history overstated? And even then, Rosa Parks ''is'' indisputably of great historical importance, one way or another, so what's the point of this? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:10, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

== France ==

As a French person I was rather amused to see your choice of myths. This selection would still have been acceptable 50 years ago, but I think later events (the Resistance for example), loom larger in French memories. And the best remembered episode from the French Revolution is not the execution of King Louis, but the storming of the Bastille.--[[User:Anne97432|Anne97432]] 15:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

== Estonia ==

The entry for [[Estonia]] lists [[Kalevipoeg]]. I'm not sure it's entirely appropriate alone, as this does not appear to fully match the definitions specified above. Perhaps, myths dating from the [[Estonian War of Independence]] should be added. [[User:Digwuren|Digwuren]] 00:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

== Inflammatory reference ==

[[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] has twice ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_myth&diff=133294262&oldid=130634206], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_myth&diff=133323491&oldid=133295140]) introduced a "For communication of falsehoods, see [[National mysticism]]" link here. While I agree that the reference is useful, I believe that this description is problematic, and so have replaced it with a standard "See also" template. [[User:Digwuren|Digwuren]] 02:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

:Template {{tl|seealso}} is not a standard hat text template, template {{tl|for}} is!

:As for the clamed POV: [[:Category:National mysticism]] is included in

:#[[:Category:Historical revisionism (political)]]

:#[[:Category:Pseudohistory]]

:#[[:Category:Pseudoscience]]

:All three are included in [[:Category:Communication of falsehoods]]. I can see no argument that [[National mysticism]] is not "communication of falsehoods". In fact, this is the defining characteristic that differentiates it from a [[national myth]], and should thus be stated in the "for" text.

:Besides, the only reason [[User:Digwuren]] is here, is that he is [[WP:STALK|stalking]] me, and has for the last month summarily revered every edit I have made. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] 02:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

It would be the purpose of this article to elucidate the various shapes and forms taken by "national myths", from merely anecdotal or traditional folklore, to national mysticist or ethnic nationalist fanaticism.

Of course a national myth includes "communication of falsehood". The question is, who is fooling whom.

In Switzerland, for example, there is the [[Rütlischwur]]. ''Nobody'' assumes this is anything like a historical event. It is nevertheless treated as a venerable fable symbolizing national origins. A bit like [[Santa Claus]] -- nobody is going to stop the custom just because it involves "communication of falsehood". At the other end of the scale, you have fanaticist stuff like the [[Battle of Kosovo]] in Serb nationalism. The battle itself is, of course, historical. But the national myth that has grown up around it is just as obviously a "communication of falsehood", but in this case, one of relaxed folklore and tradition, but one used to whip people into ethnic hatred and civil war.

This makes for a complicated topic, and the article fails to address any of it in more than a superficial [[WP:LEAD]] sort of way. I suggest we need to lose the "list of national myths" and implement a coherent discussion of the topic instead. --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 12:00, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

== List of national myths ==

Should i expand it by adding more examples or explaining the existing examples in paragraphs? [[User:Drew Stanley|Drew Stanley]] ([[User talk:Drew Stanley|talk]]) 18:05, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

:Explain, using material fro the original article, mainly the lead. In your edit summary say copied from whatever. Use sources. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 18:46, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

::thanks I am working on this. I think we can remove King asleep in the mountain from the list unless anyone disagrees. [[User:Drew Stanley|Drew Stanley]] ([[User talk:Drew Stanley|talk]]) 14:45, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

:: I want to keep Treaty of Waitangi, but it is a document that has implications to mythos, while the others seem to be myths in the traditional sense.[[User:Drew Stanley|Drew Stanley]] ([[User talk:Drew Stanley|talk]]) 15:00, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

:: Here is King Asleep in case someone decides to add it back

::*[[King asleep in mountain|King asleep in the mountain:]] Common folklore motif in many European cultures, revolves around a legendary hero/leader that lies dormant in a hidden place, but will one day awaken to save his people in their hour of need.

::: @[[User:Doug Weller]], do you or anyone else have any suggestions or advice for how to organize the examples? [[User:Drew Stanley|Drew Stanley]] ([[User talk:Drew Stanley|talk]]) 02:54, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

== Primary myths ==

This section is about the myth of nationalism as an ideology itself, rather than national myths. How can this be clearer? Should i move it somewhere else? [[User:Drew Stanley|Drew Stanley]] ([[User talk:Drew Stanley|talk]]) 18:47, 28 February 2024 (UTC)