Talk:Web design: Difference between revisions

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Why write articles at all, they get merged with unrelated articles writen by more powerful users. Shame, shame shame. Time for google. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Cbarklem|Cbarklem]] ([[User talk:Cbarklem|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cbarklem|contribs]]) 20:23, 15 February 2008</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

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{{WikiProject Human–Computer Interaction|importance=Low}}

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==Wiki Education assignment: Graphic Design History==

{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/Hamline_University/Graphic_Design_History_(Fall_2024) | assignments = [[User:Slee47|Slee47]] | start_date = 2024-08-26 | end_date = 2024-12-19 }}

<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by [[User:Slee47|Slee47]] ([[User talk:Slee47|talk]]) 23:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</span>

== Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2025 ==

== Website Design Styles Racist ==

There is blatant racism in the Website Design Styles section of this article. Unless someone can cite examples of how you can tell the country of origin of a website from the design, I'm going to delete the section.

{{Edit semi-protected|Web design|answered=yes}}

[[User:Lobotomoy|Lobotomoy]] 20:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Tools and technologies --> UX Design --> "One popular tool in web design is UX Design, it is a type of art that designs products to perform an accurate user background" --> "One popular tool in web design is UX Design, which is a type of art that designs products to perform an accurate user background" [[User:Taketori246|Taketori246]] ([[User talk:Taketori246|talk]]) 16:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

:Done... changed to simply "UX Design, a type of art", no word is needed there at all. - [[User:Adolphus79|Adolphus79]] ([[User talk:Adolphus79|talk]]) 16:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

::[[File:Edit-undo.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Partially undone:''' This request has been partially undone.<!-- Template:ESp --> Changed to;

"UX Design is a popular modality of modern web design art, it features user friendly interface and appropriate presentation". '''<span style="font-family: 'Georgia';">[[User:Valorrr|<span style="text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #a6a6a6"><span style="color: #8c8c8c;">Valorrr</span></span>]] <span style="color: #000000">^{([[User talk:Valorrr|<span style="color: #000000"><span style="text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #8c8c8c">lets chat</span></span>]])}</span></span>''' 00:56, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected|Web design|answered=yes}}

::Does no-one else consider this paragraph to be semantically questionable? What on earth does "performing an accurate user background" entail?

::If this were web designer jargon, I might caution translating it for uninitiated readers, but it's just terrible English. Paragraph should be re-written from scratch.

::How about "UX Design is a popular modality applied to modern web design that integrates functionality with user-friendliness and appropriate presentation. While not restricted to the realm of web development, it has seen steady uptake among web designers as a means of synthesising client requirements with user expectations. UX Design incorporates but extends beyond pure web design, introducing branding, marketing strategies, user support and other elements."

::A better source would be https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/topics/ux-design --unsigned<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:146.199.181.254|146.199.181.254]] ([[User talk:146.199.181.254#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/146.199.181.254|contribs]]) 04:28, 27 March 2025 (UTC)</small>

:{{partly done}}:<!-- Template:ESp --> "UX Design is a popular modality of modern web design art, it features user friendly interface and appropriate presentation" that's all that's needed. '''<span style="font-family: 'Georgia';">[[User:Valorrr|<span style="text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #a6a6a6"><span style="color: #8c8c8c;">Valorrr</span></span>]] <span style="color: #000000">^{([[User talk:Valorrr|<span style="color: #000000"><span style="text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #8c8c8c">lets chat</span></span>]])}</span></span>''' 00:55, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

== Proposal to Include Mivja as a Web Design Resource ==

Hello,

ITS NOT RACIST DIFFERENT PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT STYLES> ART IN FRANCE IS DIFFERENT FROM ART IN CHINA> <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.177.160.61|76.177.160.61]] ([[User talk:76.177.160.61|talk]]) 23:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I propose adding a mention of Mivja, an online platform offering training and services in web development, graphic design, and digital marketing, to the Web Design article. Mivja provides educational resources, tutorials, and practical insights into web design, UI/UX, and front-end development.

Mivja has contributed to the field by offering structured courses on HTML, CSS, PHP, MySQL, and JavaScript, making it a valuable resource for learners and professionals alike. If deemed relevant, a brief mention could be added under a section related to Web Design Education or Learning Resources with proper citations.

Looking forward to feedback and guidance on this suggestion.

Thank you! [[Special:Contributions/2409:40E0:104A:49AD:2D40:3D60:BBFA:A6BD|2409:40E0:104A:49AD:2D40:3D60:BBFA:A6BD]] ([[User talk:2409:40E0:104A:49AD:2D40:3D60:BBFA:A6BD|talk]]) 21:08, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

:Wikipedia isn't a link directory, this isn't a place to advertise your website. [[User:MrOllie|MrOllie]] ([[User talk:MrOllie|talk]]) 21:13, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 20 May 2025 ==

If you read many design blogs such as Smashing Magazine, you would see that web design from around the world is quite similar, and that most good designers in any country take bits and pieces from the web as a whole.

{{Edit semi-protected|Web design|answered=yes}}

[[User:Nonpr3|Nonpr3]] ([[User talk:Nonpr3|talk]]) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|comment]] was added at 23:51, 30 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Change the Section titled 2012 and Later to maybe 2012 - 2022 to shed more light on the recent advances in Web Design [[User:SamsFT|SamsFT]] ([[User talk:SamsFT|talk]]) 08:53, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

2012 - 2022

== Rewrite of Web Development and Web Design articles ==

The current articles for [[Web development]] and [[Web design]] have been listed in [[:Category:Wikipedia_articles_needing_rewrite]]. To facilitate this process, I am creating [[Wikipedia:Subpages|subpages]] of the Talk pages for the each article, named [[Talk:Web development/Web development (rewrite)|Web development (rewrite)]] and [[Talk:Web design/Web design (rewrite)|Web design (rewrite)]]. Initially these two pages will be stubs only, while I take stock of the existing material offline. I hope to post some progress before the end of 2006.

As smartphones and tablets became ubiquitous after 2012, mobile-first and responsive design rapidly moved from best practice to standard requirement. Frameworks like Bootstrap, Foundation, and later Tailwind CSS provided ready-made grids, components, and utility classes, speeding up development while ensuring consistency across screen sizes.

My plan is to improve the content in four stages:

# Provide a high level taxonomy of the subject area;

# Reorganize the existing content according to that structure;

# Edit and improve the existing material where appropriate;

# Add missing material where it's needed.

That is the plan; in its execution, there will be some overlap within steps 2-4. And we can actually decide to replace the existing pages at any time after stage #2 is complete.

Designers embraced flat and material design aesthetics favouring simple shapes, bold colours, and generous white space while animation libraries (e.g. Animate.css, Lottie) added subtle micro-interactions that enhanced user engagement without sacrificing performance.

If you want to contribute content or suggestions, then please use the ''(rewrite)'' pages only for proposed new or updated '''content''' which is intended to eventually replace the existing pages. All '''discussion''' should be placed on the two talk pages. During the rewrite process, any internal links between the two artcles should use the names with the ''(rewrite)'' extensions. If the structure is right, I don't anticipate having too many such cross-references. So I plan to edit them manually when we eventually replace the current articles.

On the JavaScript front, the rise of Single-Page Application (SPA) frameworks like Angular, React, and Vue.js, along with back-end APIs, shifted many sites toward highly interactive, app-like experiences. Parallel trends such as Progressive Web Apps (PWAs) and the Jamstack architecture (static site generators + headless CMS) further improved load times, offline capabilities, and security. Meanwhile, Flexbox and CSS Grid revolutionized layout control, allowing complex designs without heavy reliance on floats or external libraries.

[[User:ChrisLoosley|Chris Loosley]] 22:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Towards the end of the decade, accessibility and performance became top priorities. Tools like Lighthouse and axe-core drove more rigorous testing, while dark mode, variable fonts, and CSS custom properties enabled richer theming options.

== Liquid Design needs its own page ==

I wanted a quick synopsis on how liquid design is different from other approaches, and instead I was redirected to all this very basic history...

:There's very little to liquid design. It could easily be a single paragraph in this article. I don't see a need for more. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] 19:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Emerging technologies—such as WebAssembly for near-native performance and AI-driven design assistants began to appear, hinting at the next wave of innovation in user experience and developer productivity. By 2022, web design had matured into a discipline balancing aesthetic trends, inclusive practices, and cutting-edge performance techniques.

== Compatibility and restrictions ==

:{{not done}}:<!-- Template:ESp --> Unsourced and very likely AI-generated. <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>'''[[</nowiki>[[User:CanonNi]]<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]])</span> 08:58, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

== Request to add "Sustainable web design" section ==

Where did the following data come from?

"The screen resolution and internet speed averages around 1024x768 and 768 kpbs, respectively."

I think such a statement requires the backup of a citation. [[User:Lewisfrancis|Lewisfrancis]] 20:22, 8 November 2006

Hello editors,

:This is just one of several browser statistic links online [http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp]. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 00:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to propose adding a new section on **Sustainable web design**.

== Download Time ==

This topic covers eco-friendly practices in web development such as green hosting, lightweight design, and reducing digital carbon footprint.

Here are some reliable sources that support this topic:

The discussion of Web page download time in the section on "Comaptibility and Restrictions" is almost completely wrong. First, it assumes that a Web page is a part of single file, which is almost never true. Most Web pages these days contain imbedded graphic objects, CSS files, and script files.

* [Sustainable Web Design Principles](https://sustainablewebdesign.org)

* [Sustainable Web Development Strategies Within An Organization – Smashing Magazine](https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2022/10/sustainable-web-development-strategies-organization/)

* [Your Website Is Killing the Planet – Wired](https://www.wired.com/story/internet-carbon-footprint/)

I believe this addition would provide valuable information for readers.

But even for a Web page consisting only of an HTML file, you cannot compute download time simply as page size divided by bandwidth. That's because of the way the TCP [[slow-start]] protocol works, sending one or two packets (typically 1.5Kb - 3KKb), then double that, etc. up to the receive window size of the client. Every TCP transmission requires a separate "Turn", adding the [[Round-trip delay time]] (RTT) from the client (i.e. browser) to the server(s) and back. This behavior is widely documented; in fact there is a well-established formula for estimating Web page download time, namely:

What do you think? [[User:John-smit-12|John-smit-12]] ([[User talk:John-smit-12|talk]]) 00:23, 23 August 2025 (UTC)

Download Time = (Payload/Bandwidth) + (Turns x RTT) + ServerTime + ClientTime

A more detailed version of this formula was first documented by Peter Sevcik of NetForecast in 2001. Most Web sites today, particularly commercial sites, comprise many separate components. A 2006 study by NetForecast of the Keynote Business 40 (KB40), a collection of 40 well-known commercial sites in the US, found that the average number of Turns per home page for those sites was now over 60, and that the number of Turns had been increasing at 12% per year since 1996.

The above formula is not precise, because of other factors such as browsers spawning multiple TCP threads that download components in parallel. But even so, for many Web pages the second factor in the above equation can contribute as much or more to download time as the first factor. And one cannot ignore the time contributed by third factor (server delays) and the fourth factor (browser rendering) -- which is also increasing for sites that are adding more client-side functions in JavaScript.

I have not provided any citations because these are just comments, but I could help if this entry is being rewritten.

[[User:ChrisLoosley|Chris Loosley]] 07:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:Good point, but how much information do we want to give in what is an encyclopedia article? Isn't what is there a pretty good estimate of a best-case scenario, ignoring caching? --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] 00:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

::No, the present recommendations produce very poor estimates which will usually turn out to be overly optimistic. The estimate would only be reasonable for a Web page that consists only of a small amount of HTML, with no imbedded objects. But that is a very unrealistic example to use, especially in a discussion of Web page design practices.

::If we are going to have a page about design, I believe it should mention all aspects of design. And the performance of the resulting page is a crucial factor in the effectiveness of the resulting page -- a factor that many who claim to be experts in Web design often overlook.

::Good design in any field is always appropriate for the target medium, and on the Web, Internet bandwidths and latencies (RTTs) are environmental constraints that the good designer will take into account. Otherwise the resulting performance problems drive users away -- especially remote users, and those with dial-up connections, about 35% of US users in 2006. Entire industry segments (Content Delivery Networks and Application Delivery Systems) exist only because of the performance constaints I am describing, and the performance problems created by dubious design decisions.

::So it is not appropriate to ignore the issue, and certainly not appropriate to provide incorrect information about how the Web actually works. Maybe more detail could be placed on a separate page, as may be appropriate for other design topics.

::[[User:ChrisLoosley|Chris Loosley]] 08:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I'm thinking that maybe we remove more of the how-to. E.g. remove the details of how to design for download time and instead emphasize how it's important and problematic. This is an encyclopedia and we shouldn't be doing original research. References on designing for download time would be helpful though. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] 19:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I agree that this article should not include details of any area of design. Otherwise it would become a book. I do not agree with your suggestion that the way Web page downloading works, and the implications for download times, are original research. Three relevant papers are:

:::: -- [http://www.ithighway.co.uk/default.asp "Performance Issues Facing the World Wide Web" by Peter Sevcik]. This September 1999 article in Business Communications Review introduced the finding that ... "basic Web-page delay is largely governed by two key parameters: Payload and Turns". Since then, Peter has elaborated on this point in many articles and papers. He has also tracked and published updates on the growth in the average number of Turns required to download typical commercial Web pages. Any wikipedia post on the details of download time performance should cite Peter's work.

:::: -- [http://www.cmg.org/downloads/JingZhi.pdf "Web Page Design and Download Time" by Jing Zhi]. This March 2001 paper reports on statistical analysis of download time measurements, and establishes the importance of packet count and round-trip time. Two findings were that "the size (in bytes) of a page is a much poorer predictor of download time than the number of packets over which the page is transmitted," and that "there is a very clear near-linear relationship between (download time) and (round-trip time)." This paper was published in the Computer Measurement Group's Journal of Computer Resource Management #102, and later received CMG's award for best paper published in 2001.

:::: -- [http://www.stickyminds.com/sitewide.asp?ObjectId=5030&Function=edetail "Web Page Response Time 101" by Alberto Savoia]. This July 2001 paper provides a highly readable explanation of Peter Sevcik's response time formula (the one I quoted in my first comment above). It was published in STQE, the magazine of Software Testing and Quality Engineering, now renamed Better Software Magazine.

::::[[User:ChrisLoosley|Chris Loosley]] 22:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Your edits look good, thanks. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] 16:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::Thanks. All I did was remove the text I believed to be incorrect. Eventually I would like to add back some material on the importance of download time. That material would refer to an article that contains a more complete discussion, including some of the material I posted here. But first I need to figure out where to put those details. The entire presentation of the [[Web design]] and [[Web development]] topics is rather confused, and I'm not sure how much effort to put into trying to sort them out. I think it would be easiest to reorganize/rewrite both articles, but (as far as I know) Wikipedia does not provide a "staging area" where I could work on that rewrite before replacing the present versions. What is the best way to approach such a project? [[User:ChrisLoosley|Chris Loosley]] 02:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::Looks like it's described here [[Wikipedia:Subpages]]. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] 17:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::::Thanks! I will start a new discussion section about the rewrite project -- see [[#Rewrite of Web Development and Web Design articles|above]]. [[User:ChrisLoosley|Chris Loosley]] 20:41, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

== Web Page Analyzer ==

I propose you consider adding a link to our free web page analyzer service,

is available to all at [http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/ '''Web Page Analyzer''']. The analyzer sizes web page components, calculates download times at different bandwidth speeds, and gives some recommendations.

- Andy King

== Web Designers of the Century ==

Many web designers and hosting associates have marked their claims early into the century. Designers for the web have become more popular as time progresses and modern ventures become more appealing. Top web designers such as Stephen Cheung and other hosting managers such as Ryan Watson

have introduced profound ideas upon modern times.

The first paragraph of 'Web Designers of the Century' is unintelligable English. Can someone decipher it? What are "hosting managers" anyway? [[User:Htaccess|Htaccess]] 04:02, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

== Web Developer ==

Why does "Web Developer" re-direct to this page? A Web Developer is certainly not the same thing as a Web Designer (I should know I'm a Web Developer). It is like saying the guy who draws the plans for a plane is the same as the guy who puts all the bits together!

: By popluar (and my) demand I have implemented this at [[Web development]] and linked from the first paragraph.

: BTW, do you guys know how to capitalise? Yes, "World Wide Web" and "Internet" are names! [[User:Avochelm|Avochelm]] 23:39, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Just to add to this. This whole article confuses Web Design, Website Building and Web Development. There needs to be more discussion of Graphic Design, layout, typography, interaction and user experience. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:84.203.208.5|84.203.208.5]] ([[User talk:84.203.208.5|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/84.203.208.5|contribs]]) 16:27, 2 November 2006.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

:: Design is part of development. Choosing the best technology is a design issue. I agree that more should be said about the [[communication design]] of web design. However visual and literal communications are not the only concern in web design. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 18:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there is likely to be confusion for a reader wanting to find out more on some of the spcific roles in the web design/development process (as they all get redirected here).....Web designer and Web developer for example. On top of this there are other closely related role titles that can be used...Web builder or Web programmer for example. I think there is a need to define these roles as best we can within this article, though there is also a need to highlight the fact that there are definite overlaps between these ultimately fairly 'loose' definitions. A 'Web Designer' is often considered a 'graphic designers/XHTML CSS coder' but despite being a very small team, my company has already split the 'Web graphic design' role from the 'HTML/CSS' role. Reason being that quality HTML/CSS these days involves hand-coding in a text-editor which many (WYSIWYG/Table-based) Web-designers are not trained in. This (for us) results in a split of 'Web design' (Graphic designer with some basic HTML/CSS knowledge and an excellent knowledge of the constraints/unique challenges of the web) a 'Web developer' (CSS/XHTML/DOM JavaScript developer) and a 'Web programmer' (PHP/MySQL developer). For us this makes sense, but I know it isn't everyone's cup of bisuits. I am not trying to offer a definition here but rather I'm hoping to highlight the need for a general awareness of the flexibility and overlap of these roles depending on skill-sets/team sizes/Web standards adoption etc. I think this is worth communicating in an article on web design as its a common source of confusion.

A further complication: There is currently an equal overlap between the 'XHTML/CSS/DOM JS developer' role and the 'PHP/MySQL Developer' role - notably with regards to AJAX. As roles separate and solidify, new trends and technologies come along to stir it up again, making conclusive defintion very difficult. Suffice to say that part of a good Web designers/Web developers role is to be able to bridge these (shifting) gaps by a) knowing when and how to learn new skills themselves and b) knowing when and how to work closely with other skilled people in their team.

Finally, since 'Web designer' is (unfortunately still) the laymans term for all of the above, I think it would be wise to recognise and acknowledge this - but still then to develop this and make the further distinctions discussed above. Explaining that, depending on your defnition, a Web designer can be 'master of the whole process' (think evening class go-er who's making websites for friends) or they can be the one person in a series of specialised roles within a full Web development process (standing shoulder to shoulder with Web developers, Web programmers, Information Architects, User-Experience engineers, Usability specialists, Photographers, Typographers, Project managers, Animators etc etc) (think large-scale digital marketing agencies).

It's clear that the old-fashioned 'sole Web designer' role is fast diappearing, but helping the layman to understand how the role has changed and developed over the years might also be useful on this page.

== Liquid web design ==

I believe my 1998 proposal of this idea predates Glenn Davis's: [http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.etext/msg/80e53125aa04f5ae My Usenet post] --[[User:Robotwisdom|robotwisdom]] 00:09, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:It's been removed. &brvbar; [[User:Reisio|Reisio]] 08:59, 2005 July 26 (UTC)

== Adobe Flash ==

In reading this article, it reads like an advertisement for Flash. Although Flash is a part of web design, it should only be considered a part of web design, similar to graphics, or forms. It should not be considered a replacement or substitution to HTML, although as stated some use it as such. I also think (and have added) some information on dynamic techniques such as Ajax and Remote Scripting should be discussed at some length.

== Components of Web Design ==

I propose adding a section that covers this topic. Then subtopics could be "Macromedia Flash", "images" including a brief summary of GIF/JPG/PNG, "Forms", "Menus", "Client Side Scripting (Javascript)", etc.

== Seven C's of Website Design ==

Unless someone can strongly defend this section, I'm taking it out soon. This simply isn't a wide spread means of looking at web design (at least not wide spread like the 4 C's of picking out a diamond). It sounds like it's one person's attempt to define all aspect of web design in a cutesy manner.

Plus it's just wrong, not every website needs to worry about commerce, many sites aren't meant to have a sense of community, and very few sites allow customizations.

- [[User:Lifefeed|Lifefeed]] 14:40, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

:I agree. I suggest substituting a survey of design principles like the survey of design controversies, for things like "readability" that are universally agreed-on. Others, off the top of my head:

:* platform-independence (page design should not make assumptions about what the surfer's browser is capable of)

:* predictability (surfer should be able to guess what does what)

:* avoid lost-in-hyperspace via simple, clear navigation --[[User:Robotwisdom|robotwisdom]] 16:37, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

::That's a good idea. And to follow up this removal thing, I'm removing the following two links: [http://www.oswd.org Open-Source Web Design] (because templates aren't about web design), and [http://www.bd4d.com BD4D (By Designers For Designers)] (because it's a small community and not at all authoritive). Also 2 other links over to [[Web Development]].

- [[User:Lifefeed|Lifefeed]] 14:26, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)

:: Well, I agree, since we're talking design here, I don't think these things are quite inline. Things like easy navigation, content, and what the viewer is seeing when he arrives should probably be discussed.

== Controversies: short vs long pages ==

One school of thought, led by Jakob Nielsen, argues that surfers don't (like to) scroll, so long documents should be broken up into many screen-sized pages. The opposing view is that long pages are more efficient for readers, quicker to scan and easier to search. --[[User:Robotwisdom|robotwisdom]] 16:06, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

== External Link Spam ==

I re-added (again) the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Web_design&diff=41520889&oldid=38183734 (link removed. This diff contains the link if needed] external link as it adheres to [[Wikipedia:External links]] (e.g., non-commercial, valuable information, not my private site). --[[User talk:Uriah923|uriah923]] 13:03, 2005 Jun 13 (UTC)

== Value of ON content and quality of reference ==

The content and reference from ON article have been removed. A conversation is ongoing [[User:Uriah923/ON|here]]. [[User:Uriah923|Uriah923]] 06:52, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

== World Wide Web Virtual Library link removed.==

I see that the link to the World Wide Web Virtual Library pages on this topic have been removed. It may be that the Wiki user who did this is not familar with the [[World Wide Web Virtual Library]] - "The VL is the oldest catalog of the web, started by Tim Berners-Lee, the creator of the web itself. Unlike commercial catalogs, it is run by a loose confederation of volunteers, who compile pages of key links for particular areas in which they are expert; even though it isn't the biggest index of the web, the VL pages are widely recognised as being amongst the highest-quality guides to particular sections of the web."--[[User:Daedelus|Daedelus]] 12:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

:Perhaps if...

:#the markup of the site validated

:#the links didn't utilize an SEO-optimizing script for personal gain

:#it wasn't hosted on a (poor) web design site

:#half the links weren't to w3.org pages

:#the remaining links weren't biased or just plain worthless

:#it didn't mention FrontPage as something worth using

:...then it'd be worth including. &brvbar; [[User:Reisio|Reisio]] 14:08, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Interesting new Wiki rules? I'm not going to get into a deletion argument but the basic issue should be the suitability and usefulness of the link rather than newly made up wiki 'rules'.

''1. the markup of the site validated''

Its an interesting point - should links be removed from the Wiki if they display in mainstream browsers but you can see using - say Marc Gueury's HTML Validator in Firefox, that there are some invisible errors? You are right though that the WWW-VL should generally be making sure the HTML in their pages are validated.

''2. the links didn't utilize an SEO-optimizing script''

I don't think that there is a rule banning counting clicks on pages linked to from the wiki. The site is to be judged by content and relevance. In fact if you look at an example such as links from the wikki [[Debian]] article sites like http://www.debianplanet.org/ have a very prominent linking to their commercial sponsor whilst perfectly worthy sites like linuxhelp.net and http://distrowatch.com are amply covered in commercial google ads.

''3. it wasn't hosted on a (poor) web design site

''

Is this a new rule about forbidding commercial hosting of sites linking from Wikipedia? WWW-VL sites have traditionally just been subdirectories off someone elses site

''4. half the links weren't to w3.org pages''

Is there a reason why a section on Web Design Standards should not refer fairly heavily to w3.org? Again if we look at an example like the debian entry in this wiki we will see multiple links into debian.org - which for the same reasons is only natural. Nevertheless I'm sure that there are other links that would be highly valuable?

''5. the remaining links weren't biased or just plain worthless''

I think you'll find LAMP, PHP, osCommerce etc worth reading up on before deciding that they are "biased or just plain worthless" - unless you are purely Microsoft oriented. I can see a lot of room for expansion in terms of it linking to proprietary resources, but basically open source resources listed in a web design index seem fine. Likewise if you are at high school a list of forthcoming web design conferences are pretty useless - but for professionals I imagine that as long as they are kept updated they a useful resource.

'' 6. it didn't mention FrontPage as something worth using''

I don't think that it did mention (or recommend) FrontPage as something worth using. I can only assume that Frontpage was mentioned because of its popularity. It would be a pretty uninformative (and uninformed) site that talks about Web design in 2005 and refuses to link to sites that even mention FrontPage or Dreamweaver.

Anyway I can see where you are coming from - and this isn't a big deal - I'm not going to mess with the links - but why not find a better site to replace it with?

--[[User:Daedelus|Daedelus]] 22:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

:''but the basic issue should be the suitability and usefulness''

::That's what I addressed.

:''should links be removed from the Wiki if they display in mainstream browsers but you can see using - say Marc Gueury's HTML Validator in Firefox, that there are some invisible errors?''

::The point is that a resource for web design made by people that aren't very good at web design probably isn't that great a resource.

:''I don't think that there is a rule banning counting clicks on pages linked to from the wiki. &hellip; In fact if you look at an example such as links from the wikki [[Debian]] article sites like http://www.debianplanet.org/ have a very prominent linking to their commercial sponsor whilst perfectly worthy sites like linuxhelp.net and http://distrowatch.com are amply covered in commercial google ads.''

::Neither of those two sites use [[covert]] [[Search engine optimization|SEO]]-specific linking such as this.

''

:''forbidding commercial hosting of sites linking from Wikipedia?''

::Wikipedia has always been (afaik) rather anti-commercial (see [[WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_propaganda_machine]]), but the notion here is once again not wanting to link people from a web design article to a page whose host is a web design company that isn't very good at web design.

:''Is there a reason why a section on Web Design Standards should not refer fairly heavily to w3.org?''

::None at all. The point is that going to w3.org directly would be smarter than going to a page with a bunch of links to w3.org, and that we can (and already do) link to w3.org from this article.

:''I think you'll find LAMP, PHP, osCommerce etc worth reading up on before deciding that they are "biased or just plain worthless" &hellip; I can see a lot of room for expansion in terms of it linking to proprietary resources, but basically open source resources listed in a web design index seem fine.''

::Then where are the links to [[Perl]], [[Ruby programming language|Ruby]], [[Python programming language|Python]], [[Java programming language|Java]]? Where are the links to [[PostgreSQL]] and [[SQLite]]? Apparently MySQL and PHP is the only way according to these guys.

:''I don't think that it did mention (or recommend) FrontPage as something worth using.''

::I think being mentioned at all is promoting its use.

:''It would be a pretty uninformative (and uninformed) site that talks about Web design in 2005 and refuses to link to sites that even mention FrontPage or Dreamweaver.''

::Ah but it doesn't mention [[Dreamweaver]] (or any other [[WYSIWYG]] editor), just "Front Page" (with an alien space inserted into its name).

:''why not find a better site to replace it with?''

::I think the current links to http://alvit.de/handbook/ & http://w3.org/ are more than sufficient. &brvbar; [[User:Reisio|Reisio]] 19:54, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

::Blink tags are phat

== XSLT is listed under server side ==

Isn't this semi-misleading? While it can certainly be parsed server-side, it's originally intended to be rendered by the browser.

== Mentioned in UserFriendly ==

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20051212 -- Might explain the "Blink tags are phat" :) -- [[User:69.181.90.49|69.181.90.49]] 05:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

== Wikipedia ==

Would it be useful to add to each ''issue'', the point of view Wikipedia has taken? e.g. Wikipedia uses CSS layout on all pages except the front page.--[[User:Joris Gillis|Joris Gillis]] 21:35, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

:I don't think so, not particularly. It doesn't help that Wikipedia actually uses tables inappropriately on so many pages (every page with a TOC, and tons of pages with box-looking templates and infoboxes). &brvbar; [[User:Reisio|Reisio]] 22:16, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

::I think a good portion of design is doing things "inappropriately" in cases where it is either faster to develope, more stable on various platforms, or just easier to do. The "correct" method may not be the preferred method. [[User:Bytebear|Bytebear]] 01:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

== Web Design - Should there be more info on the actual process of creating websites?==

I think it would be helpful to the user to include at least a little bit of information on what web design actually entails. I believe some mention of the specific tasks involved and the types of programs used in designing a typical website would be helpful. I'm going to write up some brief descriptions and add them later on this week. Please let me know if you think this information would be more appropriately included in a separate article on web designers. After looking at the information that's currently there, I'm leaning towards including it in the web design article and reorganizing what's there a bit more.

[[User:Solomonrothman|Solomonrothman]] 23:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

:'''Comment''' That sounds fine, as long as it's not too much of an [[WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information|instruction manual]], and doesn't contain adverts for products. <b><font face="Arial" color="#D47C14">[[User:Ohnoitsjamie|OhNo]]</font><font color="#7D4C0C">[[User:Ohnoitsjamie|itsJamie]]</font>[[User talk:Ohnoitsjamie|^Talk]]</b> 23:51, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

:The article certainly has some scope for extra information, or rather expansion of the information that is already there. However, bear in mind there is a perfectly good [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Web_Design Wikibook] for instructions in creating a website. I would also be wary of starting what could become a long list of web-design software. I think this article should try and retain an element of overview, rather than detail. But by all means have a go. -- [[User:Zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] ^{[[User_talk:Zzuuzz|(talk)]]} 00:01, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

== Vandalism ==

Approx. half of the 50 most recent edits were from anonymous editors, and most had to be reverted. Is there consensus on the main article being semi-protected? -- [[User:Robocoder|Robocoder]] 14:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

:Can you protect just a section, such as the external links? Seems like that would solve most problems. I'd be in favor of the article being semi-protected, either way. — [[User:Soupisgoodfood|Soupisgoodfood]] 05:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

== XHTML ==

I think there should be something about XHTML, as the most "modern" coding you could use for a website would be a combination of XHTML 1.1 and CSS.--[[User:Donutey|Donutey]] 23:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

== External Link Suggestions ==

I have read on the following page [[Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided]] that commercial sites are generally not linked to (but can be proposed on the discussion page). I understand and in most cases would support this because users of Wikipedia do not want to wade through adverts, but rather have access to good definitions and articles. Therefore, I unashamedly propose the following external link http://www.coza-web.co.za/blog003.htm on not only this page, but also the jargon page. Yes, it is my commercial website, but the content is relevant and helpful to the user. And ultimately, the user is what Wikipedia is for.--[[User:cozaweb|cozaweb]]

:As it happens, most of that information already exists within this encyclopaedia in much greater detail, and what isn't already here could and probably should be. Why not help make Wikipedia content relevant instead. -- [[User:Zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] ^{[[User_talk:Zzuuzz|(talk)]]} 15:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Zzuuzz. I have been wanting to contribute an article but lack the time, so I figured the least I could do was submit the external link to a page that I update all the time. (the prior mentioned jargon page). I would have proposed it here first, had I known of the correct procedure, but did not. In truth, I was not terribly concerned about it until the editor James (ohnoitsjamie) accused me of spamming. I regard spammers as rather low creatures indeed, so naturally I found this highly offensive and have since become quite determined on having that link approved.--[[User:cozaweb|cozaweb]]

:I agree. Just adding links adds little value to the encyclopedia, and most of this content already exists. If there are terms that you think should be in the encyclopedia, feel free to add them to [[Computer jargon]] or [[List of computing and IT abbreviations]] or other related articles. --[[User:Mtz206|mtz206]] ([[User talk:Mtz206|talk]]) 15:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Like, I said to Zzuuzz above...would love to, but lack the time, and I resent being called a spammer by that other bloke. With all this talk of time, I suppose I should get back to work! Haha.--[[User:cozaweb|cozaweb]]

I have read the guidlines and noticed that it mentioned to propose links on the discussions page. If a persone looks for the term wen design he probably wants to know what he will need to be a web designer too. I found this really good website which provides quality information on recommended systems for web designers. Visit it here: http://webmasterdemos.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=105&Itemid=61 . This article was written by the famous Ben Hunt who apparently designed the BBC, Freeserve, HM Revenue & Customs, ProQuest, Morrisons, Which? Online, Sky, Reebok, Bechtel, France Telecom, J P Morgan, and Breathe.com. Ben was recently listed as one of 9 Persons of Notable Reputation in the Usability Industry by industry website UsabilityEffect.com. --[[User:Colddog|colddog]]

I understand the concerns about commercial listings. Still, there are some superior web design sites out there -- a list apart and boxes and arrows come to mind -- I think readers of this article would benefit from the wealth of information available there. I think they arguably transcend the commercial moniker as they are community-contributed resources and references. --[[User:strangethingintheland|strangethingintheland]]

Having heard no objections for several weeks, I placed the "a list apart" link as an external reference. For the record, I have no affiliation with "a list apart" whatsoever. I simply recognize it as a superior reference for web designers.

Would anybody have any aversion to my adding http://www.web-design.co.za/ to the bottom of the web design article under external links? Why is there only one link there at present...I seem to recall seeing a lot more web design resources last time I visited this site?

== My braindamage? ==

Designing the internal mechanisms of ones web(-site, -page, -log) and the external visuals are different things, yet a person who does either would be called a web designer. Am I wrong when I state that there's too much focus on the visuals in the article?

:Will be fixed after the rewrite. [[User:ChrisLoosley|Chris Loosley]] 22:43, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

==Endless link spam==

Anyone who has this page on their watchlist will doubtless be aware of the seemingly endless attempts to insert advertising links in 'external links'. I note that semi-protection has been proposed above. It seems an obvious solution to the problem, though it would probably need to be applied indefinitely. I don't personally see this as a problem, but how do others feel? Is there a consensus to semi-protect? [[User:Jakew|Jakew]] 10:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

: there is a user trying to add a commercial link to this page at the moment. I '''support''' semi protection [[User:Lucasbfr|Lucasbfr]] 11:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

:: I also support it (if any admins can do it?). [[User:Bgold4|Bgold4]] 00:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

::: Done. Now get to that rewrite, people! &mdash;[[User:Tregoweth|tregoweth]] (''[[User talk:Tregoweth|talk]]'') 00:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

==CSS versus tables==

I believe this section goes into entirely too much detail on an issue that is currently a mute point. The vast majority of web designers use CSS based designs. It's becomming rare to even find an up-to-date website that has a table based layout, yet alone a serious web designer who designs with tables. Why give it so much attention on the main web design page then? There is already an article that goes into a lot of detail on the historical information on this issue [[Web design (Tableless)]]. I think the CSS versus tables section should be reduced to one paragraph or less.

[[User:Solomonrothman|Solomonrothman]] 19:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

:I am shortening it during the [[Talk:Web development/Web development (rewrite)|article rewrite]]. Someone can still suggest further pruning, or merging parts into [[tableless web design]], or both. [[User:ChrisLoosley|Chris Loosley]] 08:23, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

::On an off-note, check out the CSS userbox I made in my userpage. I figure I'm not the only web designer in here... [[User:Thomasmallen|Thomasmallen]] 20:09, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe the vast majority of web designers use CSS positioning. CNN.com and Apple.com for two still use tables. Vbulletin froum software uses tables. Dreamweaver does a poor job of displaying many CSS-based designs and Explorer at least through version 6 displays CSS in very non-standard ways. --[[User:StudioMeister|studioJMC]] 23:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I swear some designers are so snobby, the section regarding css liquid design and html/table fixed design, sounds like it was written by someone who has decided to make this their own personal battle. The truth is, there are times when a liquid design is appropriate, times when a fixed design is appropriate and a time when a mixture of both is appropriate. It depends on the page, desired structure and the amount of content. [[User:Roxie Yasoxiez|Roxie Yasoxiez]] 16:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

==Unintelligible?==

''I've given this comment its own heading, because it did not seem to be related to CSS. Hopefully it will be moot after I complete the rewrite.'' [[User:ChrisLoosley|Chris Loosley]] 08:23, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

What the heck is wrong with this article? Much of the english in several sections is completely unintelligable! It looks as if it has been translated from some other language. [[User:209.173.14.125|209.173.14.125]] 14:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

==Line Length==

"The best available research suggests that users will read fastest if the line lengths are longer (up to 10 inches). If the line lengths are too short (e.g., two and a half inch columns), the line length probably will impede rapid reading. Users tend to prefer lines that are relatively short (about four inches)." [http://www.usability.gov/pubs/082006news.html]

See also [http://psychology.wichita.edu/optimalweb/text.htm] and [http://www.usability.gov/pdfs/chapter6.pdf p 56, guideline 6:12]. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] 05:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed the paragraph on optimal line length, which was based upon outdated and incorrect information. The most up-to-date information that I could find is above, which isn't easily incorporated into the current article and probably doesn't need to be. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] 05:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

== Cross Browser/Cross Platform support ==

An issue alluded to here but never adequately addressed is the need to create pages that work with a variety of browsers and platforms. A good, current breakdown of browser use, monitor sizes etc. would be helpful as well.

Also the need or at least possibility of using CSS to offer alternate designs for mobile/pda based browsers and for printing should be included. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:StudioMeister|StudioMeister]] ([[User talk:StudioMeister|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/StudioMeister|contribs]]) 23:15, 25 February 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

:There is a [[Comparison of web browsers]] in the [[HTML]] series. I don't know if enough could be done or said about making web pages display consistently across platforms and browsers. It really comes down to design for compatibility with the browser least compliant of the oldest standards. Then you know it works on the more compliant browsers. There is some issues covered in the [[HTML_editor#Difficulties in achieving WYSIWYG|HTML editor]] page about the difficulties in achieving WYSIWYG as well. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 23:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

==Planning documentation==

I renamed the story boarding section to "Planning documentation" since it was expanded to include more than [[storyboard]]s. The section and related articles are in bad need of rewrite or cleanup. The contradiction between "Website Wireframe" vs "Wireframe" needs to be fixed. One is talking about [[comprehensive layout]] and the other is talking about site map. Either both need to be included in the one [[website wireframe]] article, or separate articles need to be named with less contradiction. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 20:14, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

: We need a comprehensive list of terms used in web design, including wireframes, storyboards, and comps, all useful in the design process. We should get references from several of the top web design books and resources. This article has been a hack job of design concepts (much like most websites). [[User:Bytebear|Bytebear]] 20:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I cleaned it up a little bit and used the expanded definition of [[site map]] according to the O'reilly book ''"Information Architecture on the World Wide Web"'' page 58. I don't know where the usage of the word "wireframe" came from in the context of web design, but I made the word a [[wireframe|disambiguation page]] to clear the confusion. It sounds like another unnecessary buzz word used to repackage the definition of comprehensive layout. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 21:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

:It is a word used all the time in my line of work. It should redirect to [[website wireframe]] directly as that is the context it is used. [[User:Bytebear|Bytebear]] 02:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

==Move to delete web design mistakes section==

The section on web design mistakes lacks the formal tone and neutrality expected from an encyclopedia. It's more [[WP:SOAP]]. It lacks examples of why some of the practices would be mistakes. It assumes that every web page has the same goals. It needs reference or statistics to makes such strong claims. The paragraphs don't need numbering. It has more of the wikibook instructional tone. I would say it needs to be written in the 3rd person; but instead it needs to be deleted. Most of what is attempts to address is better addressed in other sections of the article. [[User:Oicumayberight|Oicumayberight]] 01:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

== Get rid of the article style written section! ==

The Web Design Mistakes section is pretty awful. It's already been flagged as an unencyclopaedic tone, and I see no way to rectify this as it builds further (and perhaps elaborates too much) on information that has already been published multiple times on the page. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:86.3.84.147|86.3.84.147]] ([[User talk:86.3.84.147|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/86.3.84.147|contribs]]){{#if:200706151607|&#32;200706151607|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

== Less about specific technologies, more about the process & standards ==

There's too much gory detail about specific technologies, some proprietary other transitory. Like any software development, good web design is a result of good processes that incorporate well established standards.

If the process and approach is built about accepted industry standards, then it should be able to accommodate, or at least anticipate, any type of technology that comes down the street.

For example, why so much about Flash and so little about semantic (x)HTML?

I would like to see this article re-factored along the lines of web standards - ordered by some type of high-level, generic process that includes discovery, design, etc ...

[[User:Meandean|Meandean]] 11:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

== Self reference ==

<blockquote>

A liquid design is one, '''like Wikipedia,''' where the design moves to flow content into the whole screen, or a portion of the screen, no matter what the size of the browser window.

</blockquote>

Should this self reference be deleted, per [[WP:SELF]]? [[User:Rbonvall|rbonvall]] 14:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

:I think so. It just looks odd to single out Wikipedia when other popular websites (Google, for one) use fluid/liquid/dynamic designs. I've removed it accordingly. -[[User:Kotra|kotra]] ([[User talk:Kotra|talk]]) 21:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

== Tutorial Section? ==

I wrote a very elaborate website design tutorial located here: www.garysimon.net/webdesign_tutorial/1 (4 pages). It has received a lot of attention and seems like it would be a reliable / valuable free resource for those interested in web design. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.185.145.22|75.185.145.22]] ([[User talk:75.185.145.22|talk]]) 04:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I've removed it per [[WP:NOT]], [[WP:EL]], [[WP:SPAM]], and [[WP:COI]]. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] 03:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Should we consider linking to W3 Schools for a tutorial area?

[[User:Nonpr3|Nonpr3]] ([[User talk:Nonpr3|talk]])

== SIlverlight ==

I placed a small blurg about silverlight.. I think the entire page should be re-structured to include a general section about web design technology, and inside that section we should have a short blurb about flash (much shorter than what is there now) and we should include a brief synopsis of the different technologies that come into play.

Just my two cents

[[User:Nonpr3|Nonpr3]] ([[User talk:Nonpr3|talk]]) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|comment]] was added at 16:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Pervasive Usability ==

I do not think that Pervasive Usability should be merged into this article. Actually I wonder if the Pervasive Usability article should not be scheduled to be deleted

Just my 2 cents

[[User:Nonpr3|Nonpr3]] ([[User talk:Nonpr3|talk]])

== This section should not be merged!! ==

I am a web designer, and I do not know what Pervasive Usability means or even what it is used for, and therefore, I think that the section should not be merged.

By Dinesh Kumar Mohanty <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/122.50.130.224|122.50.130.224]] ([[User talk:122.50.130.224|talk]]) 08:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== So few sources for such a huge article? ==

Since this article is pushing so much content, I am surprised to see that it has only four sources. I believe it was right of whoever did it to tag this as needing references. On the whole, it leaves me doubting the content that all there seems to be is four articles, all online. Where are the books, research papers, newspaper articles, interviews? For something apparently this big, there has to be some authorities or someone well-researched to lean up. Come on.

As a side note, the article is indeed also messy. =/

[[User:Necz0r|Necz0r]] ([[User talk:Necz0r|talk]]) 21:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== The first paragraph ==

Not all user interfaces are graphical in nature. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Weedeater64|Weedeater64]] ([[User talk:Weedeater64|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Weedeater64|contribs]]) 06:53, 13 December 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->