Talk:Darth Vader: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 07:22, 24 October 2005

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Old talk at [[Talk:Darth Vader/Archive 1]], [[Talk:Darth Vader/Archive 2]], and [[Talk:Darth Vader/Archive 3]].

|action2date=February 26 2006

[[Talk:Anakin Skywalker/Archive]] contains archived talk from an article that has since been merged to this one, including some discussion of the merge itself. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 02:22, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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==Darth Vader's Intellect==

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Anakin is the "son" of the Force, thus, he is gifted with a brilliant mind (just as the gods of ancient mythology). During his service to Watto, he learned vital technical and mechanical skills. While the Force may aid him in the construction of devices and machines, it is notewothy that Anakin is an engineering prodigy without the powers. -- [[User:24.253.120.206]]

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:Yeah. I tried to leave it unstated in the article whether all his talents were due to the Force, other than specifically quoting Obi-Wan about his piloting skills. I think it works best to put it that way. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 00:45, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

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== "I Need Him! or Nooo!!!"? ==

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There is a debate on whether "I Need Him!!!" or "NOOO!!!" warranted Anakin to simultaneously ignite his lightsaber and carve off Mace Windu's offenses. I don't think that "I Need Him" warranted Anakin to ignite his lightsaber and cut Windu's offenses off. My views is that Anakin didn't say that "he needs Palpatine" for a reason, but he tries to convince Windu to have Palpatine stand trial. Don't you guys think that Anakin was supposed to shout out "Nooo!!!" as he tries to cut off Windu's offenses to defend Palpatine?

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I don't think "I need him!" warranted Anakin to defend Palpatine, I think Anakin wanted Palpatine to stand trial, but Windu chose to ignore Anakin's request, so that's why Anakin sliced Windu's hand off. I think it should be "NOOO!!!" instead of "I need him!" that caused Anakin to slice Windu's hand off. — [[User:Vesther|Vesther]] 03:14, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

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|action6link=Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Darth Vader/1

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:Try writing more clearly, that made absolutely no sense. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 04:07, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

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== Section divisions ==

|action8date=19:46, 30 September 2010

|action8link=Wikipedia:Peer review/Darth Vader/archive3

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|topic=film

If you haven't noticed I'm trying to keep the sections so that they correspond to the films, with "Anakin Skywalker" covering the prequels and "Darth Vader" covering the original trilogy. Also the use of numbering in listing the actors is amateurish, the publicity shot is a better picture, and Ben Burtt was the special effects supervisor—not in any universe would he be credited with playing the role. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 17:36, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

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== Peer review of cultural impact section ==

== Anakin Skywlker/Darth Vader at the end of Episode III discussion update ==

I recently requested a peer review of the "Cultural impact" section of the article. I posted my request on the [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film|WikiProject Film]] page. Below is the resulting thread. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Darth_Vader&oldid=1217147231#Cultural_impact Here] is the version of the Darth Vader page that existed at the time I made the request.

The official site has updated the databank entry for [http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/darthvader/ Darth Vader]. I suggest you take a look at it. [[User:Copperchair|Copperchair]] 06:50, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

----Hi, I'm hoping to get some peer review for one section of [[Darth Vader|an article I'm working on]]. I'm posting here instead of going through the formal peer review process because I only need help with one section, not the entire article. The section in question is "Cultural impact." I've been looking at WP essays and how-to pages about how to write a cultural impact section, but I've learned all I can from those pages at this point, and now I need an actual person to look at the section and give feedback. I've been editing the entire page a lot, but have hardly touched that section because I'm not sure what it needs. Therefore, most of the content in the section was created before I started editing the page. I've done a little trimming, but that's it. I'm aware a few of the segments are unsourced. [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 06:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

: That section is, not to put too fine a point on it, atrocious. It starts out with misrepresenting the scope of the [[AFI's 100 Years...100 Heroes & Villains]] list and it's all downhill from there. ''[[IGN]]'' is an okay source but should by no means be treated as an authoritative one and is given outsized [[WP:WEIGHT]] the way it is used here. What follows is a random assortment of references in media without any sourcing to back up that these are significant ones, let alone the most significant ones. A species is named after Vader—sure, species named after popular culture items are a dime a dozen. The same thing applies to astronomical objects, by the way. Architecture inspired by Darth Vader might be relevant here, but architecture that is just compared to Vader almost certainly isn't. Darth Vader being a kind of shorthand for "villain" is probably noteworthy... but merely listing examples isn't enough, that kind of overarching analysis needs to come from [[WP:Reliable sources]] making that exact point. The [[borderline personality disorder]] thing is in the wrong section—that's in-universe character analysis. And so on. In summary, it's all an arbitrary collection of trivia. The way to fix it is to start over from scratch using sources that actually cover the overarching topic—(the cultural impact of) [[Darth Vader]]. That's the only way to ensure that the section is compliant with Wikipedia's [[WP:Core content policies]]. In particular, we need sources to tell us what's an important [[WP:ASPECT]] and what is not so we can {{tq|treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject}}. [[User:TompaDompa|TompaDompa]] ([[User talk:TompaDompa|talk]]) 19:11, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

:"His wife, Padmé Amidala, followed Anakin to Mustafar", "Despite his newfound power bestowed by the dark side of the Force, Anakin was grievously wounded in the fight", and it was only after Mustafar that "He abandoned his former identity". Alright. Thanks for pointing that out. The databank follows the practice we established for the article—namely, to use '''both''' names throughout most of Revenge of the Sith. It appears Copperchair's favorite source seems to agree with our consensus. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 09:03, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

:: Thanks for the detailed reply! Unfortunately I'm not the person to re-write the section at this point in time, because I'm still getting my head around everything you said, and I don't feel confident in my abilities to discern between important information and trivia when it comes to a section like this. At least not yet...I'm learning and growing as an editor every day. Should I just leave it as-is with the clean-up tag, or should I remove some of the most atrocious bits? [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 01:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

::: The basic idea of relying on sources on the overarching topic is that editors do not have to (and really, are not supposed to) {{tq|discern between important information and trivia}}—the sources do that for us. This is admittedly oversimplifying things as there is a bit more to it than that, but merely identifying quality sources on the topic and covering the same things as they do in roughly the same [[WP:PROPORTION]] will get you most of the way there. If you have already located quality sources in the course of working on other parts of the article, I would encourage you to give it a shot by removing the entirety of the current section and starting over. It's not like it can get much worse than it currently is. [[User:TompaDompa|TompaDompa]] ([[User talk:TompaDompa|talk]]) 10:36, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

[[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 21:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

1. "When it came time to make the fateful decision, he agreed to follow Sidious' teachings and knelt before the dark master.

== Profile ==

'''Anakin was renamed Darth Vader'''".

I created a section called "Profile" to share a succinct version of Vader's life story. Before, his story was split between the lead and other sections. Right now, the Profile section is sourced from StarWars.com and from the films (as primary sources). Is this acceptable sourcing, or do I need different or better sources?

2."His wife, Padmé Amidala, followed Anakin to Mustafar, to plead for him to return from the dark side. When Obi-Wan Kenobi emerged from Amidala's ship, '''Vader''' was consumed with rage. He saw betrayal at every corner. Distraught, he reached out with his hand and began to telekinetically throttle Padmé. She gasped for air before collapsing, unconscious, on the Mustafar landing platform. Shocked at how far his apprentice had fallen, Kenobi vowed to stop '''Vader''' and the two entered into a fierce lightsaber duel that traversed the burning Mustafar landscape."

[[User:Zmbro|Zmbro]], would you mind sharing your thoughts? [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 19:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

It says "Anakin" because that is who Padmé was looking for. She didn't know his new name. You invented the "and it was only after Mustafar that" part.

As for "He abandoned his former identity.", it refers to the fact that he no longer had a wife (or nobody of his loved ones, to be precise), which was the cause for his turn to the dark side, so he began a new life. [[User:Copperchair|Copperchair]] 20:58, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

:I honestly don't know too much about sourcing regarding fictional characters. I would recommend looking up some fictional characters whose articles are either FAs or GAs to get a better idea.

:You're forgetting "Despite his newfound power bestowed by the dark side of the Force, Anakin was grievously wounded in the fight," and also "When metal coupled with flesh in the form of cyborg implants and enhancements required to sustain him, Skywalker's transformation was complete." Copperchair, it's a completely moot point anyway. We made an agreement, and you promised not to break it. I am going to hold you to it. Don't waste our time on this yet again. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 22:44, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

:(A quick look at [[Homer Simpson]] sees it uses both primary and secondary sources). – '''[[User:Zmbro|zmbro]]''' _{([[User talk:Zmbro|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Zmbro|cont]])} 17:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

== Archives ==

Yes, but you know that was left from the older version of the page, since you pointed that out too the last time. And even though I will keep my word, I want the issue to be clear at least in the talk page, so I do not feel I am "wasting my time". [[User:Copperchair|Copperchair]] 22:58, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

So, about the archives for references in this article, I think we can use them to prevent any potential [[WP:LINKROT]] in the future. Any ideas? [[User:Sjones23|Lord Sjones23]] ([[User talk:Sjones23|talk]] - [[User:Sjones23/Wikipedia contributions|contributions]]) 18:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

:They would have changed that part if it was wrong, Copperchair. We decided to go by the scripts, and as far as we know that's what happened. As long as you keep your word, I have no further complaints. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 23:13, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

== Widower vs. husband ==

You don't have to keep reminding my of our agreement. I gave you my word, and I will keep it. But I am not satisfied with the current version of the article, and will continue to support my position on this page. [[User:Copperchair|Copperchair]] 04:24, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Given that Padme dies before he becomes a cyborg, surely he is a widower and not the husband of Padme? [[User:Luna Wagner|Luna Wagner]] ([[User talk:Luna Wagner|talk]]) 15:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

:You go ahead and do that then. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 04:35, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

:I used the present tense when writing the short biography in the lead. The Biography section uses the past tense to describe all of Vader's life, including his death. The idea in the lead is that it describes how he is at various stages of his life (and how he is when he appears in films, etc). If we called him a widower, it would mean we were looking at his life at a certain point in time, but he doesn't always appear at that point in time in every film, novel, etc. Does that make sense? [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 03:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

== Recent overhaul ==

== Hayden Christensen in Jedi - huh? ==

I don't follow this article, but it seems to me that unfortunately Wafflewombat's overhaul has seriously damaged the article. Simply the fact that they have reduced all plot coverage to a section titled “Fictional biography” with no real world context (films/dates) and from an in-universe perspective ([[MOS:REALWORLD]]) and have used past tense (see [[WP:FICTENSE]]) is a red flag. This article is a former Good Article that was most recently assessed as a B, and I don't think it even meets those criteria anymore.— [[User:TAnthony|TAnthony]]^{[[User Talk:TAnthony|Talk]]} 20:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

:I wanted to reply directly to this post. I'm planning on removing the “Fictional biography” section and restoring the "Appearances" section. At some point, I'm hoping you could explain which other parts of the article you feel have been damaged. In one of your edit summaries, you said that the Bio/Appearances issue is the least of the page's problems. I'm curious to hear more about that. I understand it may have been a shock to visit the page and find it much shorter than it used to be, but my many edits were made over a period of over two months, with edit summaries provided, and you or anyone else could have jumped in at any time to point out problematic edits. What I'm saying is, there have been good reasons for my edits, even if the article is reduced in length. The Cultural Impact section was peer-reviewed and called "atrocious" (see previous thread on this page), and the reviewer recommended it be entirely scrapped. There were a number of unreliable sources in use, and a fair number of claims in the text that were not supported by the cited sources.

[[Image:Spiritsjedi.jpg|thumb|Original]]

:I am absolutely open to the possibility that I made mistakes when editing other aspects of this article. Probably the best thing would be for you to go to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Darth_Vader&diff=prev&oldid=1212715893 the version of the page] that existed before I started editing in March, and alert me to changes you are concerned about. Then we can go through and I can explain the edits. In the meantime, I am myself reviewing that same version of the article and pondering if there is any content that should be restored. I feel awful about the mistakes I've made, and I'm taking damage-control very seriously. Thanks for your dedication to quality on Wikipedia. Your feedback has already taught me a lot and made me a better editor. [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 19:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

[[Image:VTS 04 7001.JPG|thumb|altered]]

== Infobox - input requested ==

According to the caption below the photo; "Hayden Christensen as the spirit of Anakin Skywalker (left) in Return of the Jedi." - is this a photoshopped photo?? because at the time Jedi was made he was about 2 years old. [[User:Astrokey44|Astrokey44]] 13:08, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

:Check the 2004 DVD set. Lucas replaced the the old guy with Hayden. [[User:The Wookieepedian|The Wookieepedian]] 13:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

::oh ok, should that be noted on the picture caption? - something like "On the 2004 DVD cover, HC replaced SS from the original movie" - well I cant think of the right wording but you see what i mean. [[User:Astrokey44|Astrokey44]] 13:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

:::Well, Lucas considers that the ''only' version of that films, sort of his updated one, and claims that's how Anakin should look. I guess I could mention that, though [[User:The Wookieepedian|The Wookieepedian]] 13:43, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

::::I see that its been removed, which makes sense since it was not in the original movie - just to put it up so people know what we're talking about [[User:Astrokey44|Astrokey44]] 22:40, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

The infobox has undergone various changes as I and others have experimented with different configurations of collapsible headers (where it says "more" and "show"). The idea is to make the infobox shorter since there are a lot of portrayers of Vader/Anakin. However, I keep coming back to the same conclusion that the collapsible headers make the infobox cluttered and difficult to read. I would vote that we don't use the collapsible headers at all on this page, and just live with a long infobox. But I don't want to make any more changes without seeking consensus. Could I get your thoughts? Thanks! [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 11:00, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Read the archives, this has been discussed. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 22:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

'''Update: I used multiple collapsible headers for a cleaner look.''' [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 19:01, 28 June 2024 (UTC) {{resolved}}

:Speaking of the infobox, I question whether some info is really worthwhile. For example, I think listing every title that Vader had while as a Jedi is not really that important; and I don't know that slave should really be listed as an occupation, as I do not think that is something that would be done in an in-universe way. Furthermore, I think that "Others in Legends" under Apprentice isn't really valuable information. Speaking of info that may be worthwhile to add, species and gender may be valuable, since neither is evident from the image. - [[User:Cukie Gherkin|Cukie Gherkin]] ([[User talk:Cukie Gherkin|talk]]) 10:53, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

:Thanks for the input! I made a couple edits based on your suggestions. Regarding Legends, I've been a little uncertain about how much Legends info to include on SW character pages. I have been told that lots of people did/do care about the Legends works, so my impression is that it shouldn't be disregarded entirely. What are your thoughts on this? Do you think Legends info should be removed from the info box of all SW characters, or just Vader? [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 15:44, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

And the same goes for the [[Palpatine]] article. [[User:Copperchair|Copperchair]] 23:18, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

::Just to be clear, Legends info was formerly referred to as EU, correct? If so, I think that sticking to only info from the films and TV shows would probably be for the best as far as infobox content goes. - [[User:Cukie Gherkin|Cukie Gherkin]] ([[User talk:Cukie Gherkin|talk]]) 19:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

:::@[[User:TAnthony|TAnthony]], what do you think about this? Should Legends info be in the infobox? [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 23:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

== Assertion of notability ==

[[User:Obi-Wan]] keeps reverting back to DVD-version captures. While these are the most up to date and I would like to change to them eventually, I do think that at this point in time the earlier captures are more appropriate just because they're the version that's the most familiar to the most people. We can feel safe changing it over after the theatric re-release in 3D, or perhaps later on, but right now I think it's premature. After all, Lucas might make yet another change between now and then. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 19:00, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

:I think the new versions should be used, they're higher in quality and the latest official version of the film. —{{User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/Sig}} 19:48, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

::I just reverted another of his reverts. I agree with Phil. [[User:The Wookieepedian|The Wookieepedian]] 19:50, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

So, obviously, Darth Vader is notable, one of the absolutely most notable fictional characters on the project. Unfortunately, the article doesn't do much to really assert that. At first I thought that the article didn't have a reception section due to the way it was structured, but when I did find the reception section, I didn't really see anything to say what makes him a notable figure. Strictly speaking, it feels wrong that [[Admiral Piett]] and Darth Vader have similar amount of content in these sections. Now, granted, it's understandable why these kinds of articles languish in this way; after all, there's no reason to believe anyone's going to argue that Darth Vader should not be deleted, while, say, [[Admiral Ackbar]] may need a stronger show of notability. It would certainly be good to see more done to demonstrate to the uninformed reader why Darth Vader is such a big deal. - [[User:Cukie Gherkin|Cukie Gherkin]] ([[User talk:Cukie Gherkin|talk]]) 11:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Fine, they're the latest official version. It's also a version that's only existed for just over a year now and that comparatively few people have seen. The fact is, the story of Darth Vader and the cultural phenomenon of Star Wars is more than George Lucas's latest revision. As an encyclopedia it's our job to reflect reality, and reality is, far, far more people saw Sebastian Shaw as the Force ghost. Until the latest revision gains enough cultural currency to overturn the scene that's existed for over 20 years--not just among fanboys but among the public in general--then it's premature to change it. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 20:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

: Why shouldn't we then as an encyclopedia have both versions and explain the difference in Vaders portraial between the two versions of the movies. —{{User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/Sig}} 22:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

:Thank you for your comments and your attention to various SW character pages! I've been working on these pages on my own for a long time with little feedback from others. Vader absolutely needs more demonstration of notability. Do you have the time and energy to take a crack at the Vader Reception section? [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 15:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

We do--in [[List of changes in Star Wars re-releases]]. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 22:23, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

:Plus:I thecould, factthough thatI'm Lucasa changedlittle thesick, scenethough isit inwould thebe Vaderslow articlegoing. - [[User:TheCukie WookieepedianGherkin|TheCukie WookieepedianGherkin]] ([[User talk:Cukie Gherkin|talk]]) 2315:3258, 172 OctoberJuly 20052024 (UTC)

:::If you're up for it, slow is better than nothing. I hope you feel better soon. [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 16:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

::::Hey, just to let you know I'm going to move the discussion over to [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Star Wars#Insufficient assertions of notability on multiple articles|here]]. - [[User:Cukie Gherkin|Cukie Gherkin]] ([[User talk:Cukie Gherkin|talk]]) 19:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

:::::I haven't been following Wafflewombat's recent work on the article but the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Darth_Vader&diff=prev&oldid=1212715893#Cultural_impact previous version] had a Cultural impact section that may have useful info to reintroduce to the article.— [[User:TAnthony|TAnthony]]^{[[User Talk:TAnthony|Talk]]} 02:10, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

== jar jar tis better ==

::Since when is Wikipedia not supposed to have the latest information? We shouldn't stay purposefully outdated just so some people can catch up. There isn't going to be panic in the streets if we post a screenshot from a DVD that millions of people have bought over the past year or so. Just have a caption that says "from the 2004 DVD release". That's all. The more you show these shots, the quicker they'll be accepted. Besides, I'm sure that more people nowadays would recognize Hayden Christensen over Sebastian Shaw. You know, I sense an undercurrent of dislike against this change, or Christensen, or the Prequels in general... you shouldn't be making excuses to keep the old picture. --[[User:Marcg106|Marcg106]] 05:00, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Now we all know Darth Vader is one of the strongest character bur lets be honest, jar could totally beat him. His exeptional skills are what make him better at fighting, the force and every thing in-between. On top of this he is funny so a great person to laugh with the family at as shown in Phantom Menace and also a leader to his kind in again the Phantom Menace. Finally in the Clone Wars movie he chose palpatine to be leader of the senate and if he did not the empire would not have risen. [[Special:Contributions/86.4.39.139|86.4.39.139]] ([[User talk:86.4.39.139|talk]]) 11:20, 5 July 2025 (UTC)

[[WP:FAITH|Assume good faith]]. I'm not "making excuses", I'm just looking beyond the impulse, of some, to treat Lucas's latest revisions as the only consideration to be made. If we're supposed to present a truly representative picture of what ''Star Wars'' is, we should present a generally broader picture than simply what Lucas's latest revision is. There won't be "panic in the streets" if we don't—we'd just be failing our job as an encyclopedia, not to make Lucas's tinkering with his old films more quickly accepted, but to catalogue the cultural phenomena of our civilization. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]'''

''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 13:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

:[[WP:NOTFORUM]]. This isn't a discussion board and any changes or edits to articles must be supported by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. <small>We all know Jar Jar is the most powerful Sith Lord anyway.</small> [[User:TurboSuperA+|<span style="background:#000;color:#FFF;"><em><b>TurboSuperA+</b></em></span>]][[User talk:TurboSuperA+|_(connect)]] 11:22, 5 July 2025 (UTC)

:You say to assume good faith, yet your reply seems to have a condecending attitude toward's Lucas "tinkering". Every other page on Wikipedia is always updated with the latest information as soon as it's available. I fail to see how this page is different. "Cataloguing cultural phenomena" does not take precedent over providing ''accurate, up-to-date details''.

:This flippant attitude toward's Lucas' updates is not appropriate. The idea that, "oh, he'll make more revisions in the future, so why bother displaying them now?" is completely against what Wikipedia's about. If he does make those changes, then we'll update the pages accordingly. But for now, the images should reflect the '''most current version'''.

:I'd really like to see some other pages where up-to-date information is sacrificed for the sake of "preserving culture".

:It would be interesting to see arguments against this change that aren't based in a fundamental dissaproval of Lucas' prerogative to change his films. --[[User:Marcg106|Marcg106]] 15:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with Lucas changing his films. I just don't think Wikipedia should be activist about promoting the acceptance of those changes: that's called maintaining the [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|Neutral point of view]]. Once again, this page notes that Christiansen appears in the latest version of ''Return of the Jedi''--no "accurate, up-to-date details" are sacrificed. If you want to see arguments that "aren't based in a fundamental dissaproval of Lucas' prerogative to change his films", I suggest you '''reread my arguments''' because you obviously failed to comprehend them the first time. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 18:25, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Again, I suggest that we display images from both versions of the films and explain the differences, there's no need to pick one version, and no, having it at [[List of changes in Star Wars re-releases]] is not enough. —{{User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/Sig}} 23:46, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

:Why? That's the article that's actually *about* differences between various versions of the films. It's at best a tangential issue in this article. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 01:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

::Well in my opionion if the portrayal of this character changes through different versions of the movies we should explain that in this article as well as the list of .. article. —{{User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/Sig}} 04:40, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

As currently written, the article clearly states that the portrayal does change. We just haven't cluttered the article with two pictures of the same scene. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 15:07, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

== "where both Kenobi and a dying Yoda" vs. "where both a dying Yoda and Kenobi" ==

I really hope there's not some stupid edit war brewing over this, but I see that [[User:Copperchair|Copperchair]] has reverted this edit several times, and I really, really just want to ask: um, why does such a small word choice even ''matter''? &ndash; [[User:Mipadi|Mipadi]] 07:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

:"Kenobi and a dying Yoda" flows better, even though it's not chronologically accurate. But there's no representation or expectation that it would be, either. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 07:44, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

== Category:Star Wars Naberrie family ==

Does Anakin really belong in this category? He married Padme and that might be considered marrying into the Naberrie family, but usually we see it as the woman marrying into the man's family and ''not'' the other way around. If there's something definite about the way this is seen in the Star Wars universe, I'd like to see it. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 07:12, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

:Well, the way it is in the real world is quite the double standard, so I would think that the ''Star Wars'' world, as advanced as they seem in all aspects, would see it both ways. As far as in-universe aspects go, I'm quite surprised that they would still expect women to take the last name of the person they marry. But of course, since those stories were written by earthly humans, it's not all that surprising. Let's leave it at that, as there's really no established custom as far as "marrying into" in ''Star Wars'' fiction yet.[[User:The Wookieepedian|The Wookieepedian]] 08:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

== "widely considered one of the most iconic movie villains of all time" ==

I've attempted to replace this [[Wikipedia:Avoid weasel terms|weasel statement]] in the lead section with a factual statement that conveys approximately the same message. It may be less dramatic, but the original statement is still an opinion without references, even if it is not a widely disputed statement. --[[User:Poiuytman|Poiuyt Man]] [[User talk:Poiuytman|^talk]] 03:56, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

:How about we just leave it the way I had it, but.. give a reference to your specific fact, wherever it is on the net. [[User:The Wookieepedian|The Wookieepedian]] 03:57, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

::I've reworded it to keep the notion that he's an iconic figure (without the opinionated "one of the most"), while mentioning his pop culture significance and AFI to back it up. It easily summarizes and leads the reader into the "cultural figure" section. --[[User:Poiuytman|Poiuyt Man]] [[User talk:Poiuytman|^talk]] 04:08, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

:::Good. I agree with your style of wording. [[User:The Wookieepedian|The Wookieepedian]] 04:10, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

:He's been featured on some sci-fi presentation as the #1 greatest villian of all time, unlike his #3 ranking in the reference used in the article. Vader is rather iconic; though we'd need significant backup to state here that he's the most iconic villan ever. Stepping back from wikidom a bit, he may very well be.

== "Appearance" image ==

The image of Darth Vader by the "Appereance" section is there for a very simple reason—so we get to see what he looks like in a section discussing what he looks like. It's an illustration. While I'm not opposed to a caption necessarily, it would have to be a caption that is useful to the purpose of illustrating what Lord Vader looks like, or else it's a distraction from the meaning and flow of the page. By the way, formatting the image as a thumbnail without a caption is quite silly as well. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 19:26, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

:The caption goes along with the discussion of his appearance. Furthermore, the image ''is'' a thumbnail, so it should be formatted as such.

: Wikipedia even specifies a standard format for adding images: [[Wikipedia:Images#Using images|1]] [[Wikipedia:Extended image syntax#New syntax for images|2]] &ndash; [[User:Mipadi|Mipadi]] 19:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

== Stop the petty reverting. ==

This is directed towards [[User:Copperchair|Copperchair]] and [[User:The Wookieepedian|The Wookieepedian]], who keep reverting Hayden's episode VI appearance in the infobox. Regardless of which version of the film you consider the "true" version, all versions of the movie need to be acknowledged to avoid POV. I've place a footnote to clarify which version of ROTJ Hayden appears in. Hopefully this is a satisfactory solution for both of you. --[[User:Poiuytman|Poiuyt Man]] [[User talk:Poiuytman|^talk]] 16:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

:Trust me, Copperchair cannot accept ''any'' type of compromise. For him, ''all'' ''Star Wars'' articles must be based only on the '97 Speial Editions. I was not trying to promote my version as he was. He was attempting to ''remove'' information from other versions. I left everything in from the other versions. If I acted like him, I would have removed the fact that Sebastian Shaw originally played him. Yep, that's how silly Copperchair's actions are, when looked at from a different point of view! Even when I have given him this comparison, he merely avoids it, and continues reverting. And the guy claims he studied law! [[User:The Wookieepedian|The Wookieepedian]] 02:27, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Inexplicably removing factually correct and referenced information, as Copperchair is doing, arguably constitutes vandalism. I'm conservative when it comes to defining vandalism but I think this qualifies, if barely. — '''[[User:Philwelch|Phil]]''' ''[[User_talk:Philwelch|Welch]]'' 03:01, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

It is NOT vandalism, as that information is already in the article (''[[Sebastian Shaw (actor)|Sebastian Shaw]] portrayed the dying, middle-aged (and redeemed) man behind the mask in the theatrical release of ''[[Return of the Jedi]]'' and shortly after, as his [[ghost]]; however, in the most recent [[DVD]] release, Christensen is digitally inserted in Shaw's place.)'' Thus, [[User:Poiuytman|Poiuyt Man]]'s footnote is redundant. [[User:Copperchair|Copperchair]] 07:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

:And so is the fact that Shaw played him. Should we remove that from the info box as well? [[User:The Wookieepedian|The Wookieepedian]] 07:07, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

No, because he, unlike Hayden, appeared in the end credits. [[User:Copperchair|Copperchair]] 07:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC)