Talk:Francisco Hernández de Córdoba (Yucatán conquistador): Difference between revisions

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{{WikiProject Military history|class=C|b1=n|b2=y|b3=y|b4=y|b5=y|Biography=y|Spanish=y|North-American=y|Medieval=y|Early-Modern=y}}

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{{old move|date=29 September 2021|destination=Expedition of Francisco Hernández de Córdoba (1517)|result=no consensus|link=Special:Permalink/1049743129#Requested move 29 September 2021}}

== Untitled ==

Comment by [[User:Vivero]], the main author of the Spanish-language article, in response to my request for his sources; copied from [[Wikipedia talk:Spanish Translation of the Week]] -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 22:57, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

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== Translation difficulties ==

In the [[Francisco_Hern%E1ndez_de_C%F3rdoba_%28discoverer_of_Yucat%E1n%29#Origin_of_Hern.E1ndez.27s_expedition:_Slave-hunting_or_exploration.3F|section on the origin of the expedition]] I ran into a few phrases that gave me difficulty in translation. [[User:Vivero|Vivero]]'s prose is generally vivid, which is mostly a good thing, but as a non-native Spanish speaker he occasionally throws me for a loop.

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== last remaining translation difficulties ==

I'm pretty much finished with this. Thank you, Vivero for your excellent answers above. A (very) few difficulties remain; I bet you can help with most of these, too.

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== Just a few more ==

::Sorry for the delay. I try to answer after each question [[User:Vivero|Vivero]] 23:48, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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== Muskets, etc ==

Joe, thanks for the corrections re name abbreviations. As for the identification of the Spaniards' firearm as a [[musket]], I was relying (as with much of the rest of the updates) on J.M. Cohen's 1963 (abridged) translation of Bernal Diaz's ''The Conquest of New Spain'', published in Penguin Classics edition. In this, he translates:

:''We took fifteen crossbows and ten '''muskets''', and started to follow the road along which the Cacique was going with his great company of Indians.'' (p.19)

and:

:''But, thanks be to God, when they felt the sharp edge of our swords and the effect of our crossbows and '''muskets''', they quickly took to their heels, leaving fifteen dead on the field.'' (also p.19)

Cohen's translation of this term might not necessarily be specific or technically apt, and possibly he only uses it as a generic term for an early firearm. They might actually have been technically [[arquebus]]es, the time period seems to be about right, but our wikipedia [[musket]] article also tells us that muskets were around from possibly the 14thC. as well. I'm not really ''au fait'' with the military technology of the period, would have to do some further research to find out.--[[User:CJLL Wright|cjllw]]<fontspan colorstyle="color:#DAA520;"> | </fontspan>[[User talk:CJLL Wright|<small>''TALK''</small>]] 06:50, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

: They wouldn't have been arquebuses: he would have used the then-common Spanish word ''arquebustos''. At that time, ''escopetas'' may well have meant muskets. I only know its modern meaning. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 23:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

: I've now asked about ''escopetas'' at that date on [[:es:Discusión:Escopeta]]. Hopefully a native speaker with expertise will respond. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 23:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

As an addendum, Cohen also translates ''Veedor'' as "Inspector". Also, in the passage re the battle of Champoton, Cohen has Bernal relate:

:''During the fighting, the Indians shouted to one another "Al calachuni, calachuni", which means in their language, "Attack and kill the captain."

I amended the description of this accordingly.--[[User:CJLL Wright|cjllw]]<fontspan colorstyle="color:#DAA520;"> | </fontspan>[[User talk:CJLL Wright|<small>''TALK''</small>]] 08:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

: On this one, I would say that Cohen is playing a bit fast and loose with his source. After all, it's not like the Spanish even necessarily knew exactly what they heard, let alone that Bernal Díaz wrote it down correctly 50 years later. And then he extrapolates from that. Functionally, I guess that is what it meant, but there is nothing in Bernal Díaz to bear that out. ''"Calachuni"'' seems generally equivalent to ''cacique''; the ''al'' is Spanish; there is nothing more here than "to the captain/chief". - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 23:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

::ok thanks, hopefully our compañeros on es.wiki can help out. I agree that Bernal is not the sort of chap who would be attentively noting down their utterances in the heat of the battle- I'm sure by their subsequent actions the intentions of the attackers would have been unequivocal, whatever it was that they said. Perhaps it can be tweaked to indicate that this is only BD's later interpretation.--[[User:CJLL Wright|cjllw]]<span style="color:#DAA520;"> | </span>[[User talk:CJLL Wright|<small>''TALK''</small>]] 01:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

::: I'll take a shot - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 06:23, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

::thanks Joe, that latest amendment is a neat solution.--[[User:CJLL Wright|cjllw]]<span style="color:#DAA520;"> | </span>[[User talk:CJLL Wright|<small>''TALK''</small>]] 08:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

== Date of Dead ==

at first I read: ''"Francisco Hernández de Córdoba (died '''1524''') was a Spanish conquistador, known to history..."'' a while later I read: ''"Hernández did not live to see the continuation of his work; he died in '''1517''', the year of his expedition,..."'' - maybe it is my blame and some other Hernandez is meant but I don't think so -- [[user:Hartmann Schedel|<span style="color:#348853">Hartmann Schedel</span>]] [[User talk:Hartmann Schedel|<sup style="color:#FF7F00; font-family:arial; font-size:small;">cheers</sup>]] 18:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

:You are right, it should be c.1517 not 1524. This was recently changed by an anon edit, have changed it back. Possibly they were confusing with the other Francisco Hernandez de Cordoba, founder of León, Nicaragua & later executed by Pedrarias in 1526. While I don't think that the Yucatan Hernandez de Cordoba's date of death is exactly known, it's presumed he died from his wounds not very long after the expedition returned to Cuba in 1517. --[[User:CJLL Wright|cjllw]]<span style="color:#DAA520;"> <span title="Pronunciation in IPA" class="IPA">ʘ</span> </span><small>''[[User talk:CJLL Wright|TALK]]''</small> 07:56, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

::thank you for the fast response -- [[user:Hartmann Schedel|<span style="color:#348853">Hartmann Schedel</span>]] [[User talk:Hartmann Schedel|<sup style="color:#FF7F00; font-family:arial; font-size:small;">cheers</sup>]] 11:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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== Requested move 29 September 2021 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->

:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''no consensus.''' There seems to be no consensus if an article on Francisco Hernández de Córdoba is justified. I think this should either be taken to AfD, which is a better place to evaluate [[WP:Oneevent]], or a separate discussion should be had on [[WP:SPLIT|splitting]] this article. <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> '''[[User:Vice regent|VR]]''' _{[[User talk:Vice regent|talk]]} 01:45, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

----

[[:Francisco Hernández de Córdoba (Yucatán conquistador)]] → {{no redirect|Expedition of Francisco Hernández de Córdoba (1517)}} – The article is about the expedition. There aren't any further biographical details about Francisco Hernández de Córdoba. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 18:31, 29 September 2021 (UTC)<small>—&nbsp;'''''Relisting.'''''&nbsp;[[User:Havelock Jones|Havelock Jones]] ([[User talk:Havelock Jones|talk]]) 10:39, 13 October 2021 (UTC)</small>

: Note that a disambiguator (1517) or (Yucatán) is needed. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 18:35, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

*I would support a move but also note that it's not a very good article. Much of it is unsourced or uses Bernal Diaz (essentially a primary source). Other parts lack an encyclopedic tone or wander off topic. There's already a better article on the same topic here: [[Spanish conquest of Yucatán#Francisco Hernández de Córdoba, 1517]]. Whatever you end up calling it, it needs a major overhaul. [[User:Glendoremus|Glendoremus]] ([[User talk:Glendoremus|talk]]) 23:51, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. There needs to be a page on the individual. He is linked by name in other pages. That said, the article certainly needs a rewrite. Or rather, a ''separate'' page on the expedition should be created, with all its details transferred there, and just leave here the basic biographical facts. [[User:Walrasiad|Walrasiad]] ([[User talk:Walrasiad|talk]]) 01:48, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

:*I'm okay with suggestion by [[User:Walrasiad]]. Move most of this to an improved article on the expedition and leave behind a basic biography. [[User:Glendoremus|Glendoremus]] ([[User talk:Glendoremus|talk]]) 15:59, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->

</div><div style="clear:both;"></div>

== New page for expedition ==

I'll be making a new page for the expedition to Yucatan details (but use references I already have as there's loads of better quality ones than Bernal Diaz). When done, I'll notify here / move expedition details from this page to the new page, so we can have this article be just a biography :) – [[User:Asdfjrjjj|Asdfjrjjj]] ([[User talk:Asdfjrjjj|talk]]) 09:36, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

:Page at [[Hernández de Córdoba expedition]]. Too spent to clean up this article atm but hopefully someone takes a razor to it, leaving just bio as per Sep 2021 discussion, would be grand. – [[User:Asdfjrjjj|Asdfjrjjj]] ([[User talk:Asdfjrjjj|talk]]) 01:56, 21 September 2023 (UTC)