Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bob Shannon (computer programmer): Difference between revisions
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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.''
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The result was '''delete'''. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:54, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
===[[Bob Shannon]]===
<div class="infobox" style="width:50%">AfDs for this article:<ul class="listify">{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Founder of the Bulletin Board System}}</ul><ul class="listify">{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bob Shannon (computer programmer)}}</ul></div>
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:({{findsources|Bob Shannon}})
Questionable Notability. "First BBS System for <specific antiquated computer>" with hints of a reference in a outdated COMPUTE!'s Gazette magazine doesn't strike me as particularity notable. [[User:Noian|<span style="color:red;">'''ηoian'''</span>]] [[User talk:Noian|<small><span style="color:MediumSeaGreen;">''‡orever ηew ‡rontiers''</span></small>]] 06:08, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Once notable, always notable, and at least one reference (in the form of the COMPUTE! Gazette article referred to) exists. References don't have to be online to be valid. - <
::Can you tell me how to verify this assertion? Or for that matter, how designing not the first BBS system in existence, but rather one that worked on a particular system is notable? It seems to be a stretch. [[User:Noian|<span style="color:red;">'''ηoian'''</span>]] [[User talk:Noian|<small><span style="color:MediumSeaGreen;">''‡orever ηew ‡rontiers''</span></small>]] 06:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
*<s>'''Keep''' ''IFF'' this content can be adequately sourced. Otherwise, baleet it.
** Changing to '''DELETE''' after further consideration. It appears that this person has been using Wikipedia as a self-promotional piece to advance his position and retool history as it relates to the bulletin board system. I cannot endorse that. [[User:JBsupreme|<span style="color:#BA181F;">JBsupreme</span>]] ([[User talk:JBsupreme|<span style="color:#BA181F;">talk</span>]]) 07:23, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
*<small class="delsort-notice">'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Software|list of Software-related deletion discussions]]. <!--Template:Delsort--></small> <small>-- [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 00:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)</small>
*'''
*'''Comment''': A portion of the ''COMPUTE!'s Gazette'' article cited is available [http://bobshannon.org/gazette.htm on the subject's homepage]. —[[User:Korath|Korath]] ([[User talk:Korath|Talk]]) 01:09, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
** That hardly satisfies [[WP:GNG]] as it's 3-paragraphs in one article presumably not exclusively about him. There's no mention of him or his BBS in [[textfiles.com]], which is generally accepted as reliable source per [http://books.google.com/books?id=26NyHREJwP8C&pg=PA1926&dq=bbs+history&cd=1#v=onepage&q=bbs%20history&f=false]. The is also no mention of him or his BBS in [http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/software/ this list] (the site of [[BBS: The Documentary]]), which has over 800 software listed. The fact that he says on his home page "Skeptics abound as per me calling myself the founder of the BBS System." is a good reason to be very suspicious of anything sourced from there. See [[CBBS]], which matches the book source I linked above. [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 01:05, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Maybe ''especially'' since most of the sources pre-date Google. We shouldn't delete topics (even computer topics) just because publications discussing them are not readily available online. Understanding history of software (and the people associated with it) is an excellent thing for WP to document, and this seems like an obviously notable individual in that early history of PCs.
*'''Delete'''. Sole claim to notability, or source of interest from a computer history standpoint, is his BBS [[Electric Magazine]]. A move there is worth considering if better sourcing turns up (I spent the last half hour digging in my basement for that ''Compute!'s Gazette'' issue, to no avail), but I'm not seeing anything that would pass [[WP:BIO]]. —[[User:Korath|Korath]] ([[User talk:Korath|Talk]]) 01:45, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Note'''. Most of this article was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bob_Shannon_(computer_programmer)&diff=prev&oldid=29958569 autobiographical]. See the old AfD for [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FFounder_of_the_Bulletin_Board_System&action=historysubmit&diff=29819258&oldid=29807618 another IP] whose prefix matches this one, and admits to be Shannon. You may also want to read the comment made by [[Jason Scott Sadofsky]] ([[User:jscott]]) in [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Founder_of_the_Bulletin_Board_System|the previous AfD]]. The claim that his is the 1st [[Commodore VIC-20]] BBS is also dubious given that bbsdocumentary.com only lists one such system, and it isn't Shannon's; see [http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/software/COMMODORE/VIC-20]. The [[COMPUTE!'s Gazette]] snippet only mentions [[Commodore 64]] as platform for "Electric Magazine". [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 02:18, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
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*'''Keep:''' Once notable, always notable. - [[User:Ret.Prof|Ret.Prof]] ([[User talk:Ret.Prof|talk]]) 23:39, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
** [[WP:BLP1E]]. [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 23:43, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Those who said delete, please look at the long version [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bob_Shannon_(computer_programmer)&oldid=340638254] of the article. Some valid information was erased by someone who wants the article deleted. I don't think seven hours after someone tags something as needing a citation, that section should be erased by someone else. Give people time to find information, someone perhaps having one of those old magazines. If he got such praise in a notable magazine of the time, he is clearly notable. [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>
** The "valid" information is [[WP:V|unverifiable]]. I tagged it as such and JBsupreme deleted it per his standard routine. By the way, the info was added by the subject of the autobiography himself. [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 06:50, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
***The person adding it should've been asked to scan in the magazine article in question and list exactly what issue it was in. I just got done searching around, and can't find anything more than pictures of the covers of that magazine, the text not backed up anywhere online. I'll do that now, and ask people who have contributed to the Wikipedia article for that magazine, if any of them own any old copies, or know where to find it. [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>
*** FWIW this person apparently has a reputation for [[Make a mountain out of a molehill|making a mountain out of a molehill]] when it comes to claims-to-fame, and any such autobiographical reference is simply unreliable. I don't say this lightly. [[User:JBsupreme|<
::::Nothing particularly new that is notable in that diff besides unverifiable peacock, weasel, and promotional wording. [[User:Noian|<span style="color:red;">'''ηoian'''</span>]] [[User talk:Noian|<small><span style="color:MediumSeaGreen;">''‡orever ηew ‡rontiers''</span></small>]] 00:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
*'''Maybe''' he is famous after all [http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/917 for his edits on Wikipedia]—[[textfiles.com]] article about that. [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 08:05, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - the sourcing on this isn't anywhere close to establishing notability, and doesn't do a great job of establishing the given facts. --[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 15:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' I have posted a scan of the ''COMPUTE!'s Gazette'' article in question [http://img64.imageshack.us/g/computegazetteissue1719.jpg/ here]. It mentions Shannon and one other sysop, as examples; this 3-page sidebar article is part of a larger article about the increased use of BBS telecommunications on Commodore systems. It gives a bit of background on Shannon and the other guy (who, AFAIK, doesn't have an article and probably shouldn't). It says nothing about the claim that he was the first person to create a BBS for the VIC-20, so that claim will have to be sourced elsewhere. [[User talk:Crotalus horridus|<
:Was he in two different articles that year? The article mentions quotes from an article the same writer wrote called "BBS Fever". What you uploaded is an article called "The Indispensable Sysop". [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>
::The 3-page "Indispensable Sysop" sidebar article was part of a larger article called "Bulletin Board Fever", which is presumably the one you're referring to. Only the blue sidebar had any mention of Shannon (and it seems to function as an article in its own right), so that was the only portion I posted. [[User talk:Crotalus horridus|<b style="color:#1111AA; font-family:monospace, monospace;">*** Crotalus ***</b>]] 20:00, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
::: Thanks for posting that. I've read the entire column, there's no mention of Shannon writing a VIC-20 BBS, only a Commodore 64 one. Instead, [[Tony Ott]] is credited with writing a VIC-20 BBS in that column, but there's no claim that that one was the first BBS for that platform either. So, what we have here based on secondary sources is the author of just another Commodore 64 BBS software. There were dozens of these if look at [[textfiles.com]]. Doesn't qualify anyone for a biography here via [[WP:ANYBIO]] or [[WP:AUTHOR]]. There are also extremely few details about the BBS software itself (14Kb of BASIC, and sold 400 copies); it's very hard to even write an article about that. [[User:Pohta ce-am pohtit|Pcap]] [[User_talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit|<small>ping</small>]] 09:11, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
'''Notice''' I'd like to inform everyone of this message posted on Wikiproject Software by the writer of the article in question. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Software&action=historysubmit&diff=341632123&oldid=341255258]. Assistance in verifying and explaining to the new editor about reasons that self published information might be in violation of policy is welcome. [[User:Noian|<span style="color:red;">'''ηoian'''</span>]] [[User talk:Noian|<small><span style="color:MediumSeaGreen;">''‡orever ηew ‡rontiers''</span></small>]] 07:18, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>
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