Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial: Difference between revisions
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== MOS:COLHEAD potential workaround? ==
Can [[MOS:COLHEAD]] violation in [[Iga Świątek career statistics#Performance timelines|this case]] be worked around by adding "id=colX is empty. In row13 you can found...." or a hidden comment with a similar message to indicate to screen readers that more content can be found in the next row instead of rearranging the rows? [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 23:55, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
:That whole table is messed up so trying to workaround one bad part of it, won't really "fix" it. Look at the "Career statistics" section, 5 of the 9 rows have cell content unrelated to the column headers. Separate the tables, make better column headers, remove bad usage of bold. Not everything needs to be in one giant table. [[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 06:30, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
::@[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]], I proposed an [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis#Performance timeline|improved version]] (pinging those involved in creating the new design {{ping|Fyunck(click)|Unnamelessness}}) which passes MOS:COLHEAD in my project's community, but people are used to one design, prevalent in 100s of tennis BLPs. The new look meets accessibility criteria [[WCAG]] for screen reader users but offsets the sighted who are used to the old design...a balancing act.
::Maybe remove the rows and replace them with {{tlx|notes}} or {{tlx|efn}}? [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 16:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
:::Yeah, not surprised. There are some places I'll never touch just because I don't want to deal with that type of editors. [[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 16:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]], I get you. I am going to make a push in favor of the visually impaired. Hopefully, it sticks. The minority needs to be tended to as well not just the ones blessed with the gift to see. [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 16:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
::That is something I originally proposed, but you know, some kinds of compromise have to take as this is Wikipedia. :) [[User:Unnamelessness|Unnamelessness]] ([[User talk:Unnamelessness|talk]]) 06:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
:::I know. It is the bitter sweet truth. You can't please everybody. [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 10:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
== Cells on multiple rows ==
Hi, are the cells spanned on multiple rows accessible? E.g., [[DC Extended Universe#Films]]: the correct way is to split the "Zack Snyder" cell into two cells with the same date or are they just fine as they are? [[User:Redjedi23|Redjedi23]] ([[User talk:Redjedi23|talk]]) 14:43, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
:I state that because if I try to read the ''Batman v Superman'' row, the Apple VoiceOver skips the director's name [[User:Redjedi23|Redjedi23]] ([[User talk:Redjedi23|talk]]) 15:41, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
::They're fine as they are. VoiceOver isn't that good with this kind of thing. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 15:51, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Graham87|Graham87]] I get the same result with NVDA [[User:Redjedi23|Redjedi23]] ([[User talk:Redjedi23|talk]]) 16:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
::::{{replyto|Redjedi23}} Same, but also those sorts of tables aren't meant to be read linearly ... they're supposed to be read with table navigation commands (control+alt+arrows in NVDA's case), which works as expected. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 17:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::But in this way the header column loses its meaning, right? [[User:Redjedi23|Redjedi23]] ([[User talk:Redjedi23|talk]]) 18:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::Not really. Screen reader users will just get used to having a blank cell (with information hopefully about the row spans) and things will be fine. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 18:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
==Colgroups and rowgroups==
In [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial#Complex tables]] it says "To clearly define relationships and avoid accessibility issues, use <code>! scope="colgroup" colspan="2" | </code> when a column header spans two columns and <code>! scope="rowgroup" rowspan="2" | </code> when a row header spans two rows..." Can a combination of those be used when a column spans multiple rows <code>scope="rowgroup" colspan="2"</code> and when a row spans multiple columns <code>scope="colgroup" rowspan="2"</code> in complex tables? [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 12:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
== Better describe the problem of missing captions for screen reader users (SRUs)? ==
Do we need to expand on the issue of missing captions? I ask because '''so many data tables do not have a caption''', suggesting that editors are unaware of the problems caused where one is missing. For example, a SRU can call up a list of tables on a page, each labelled by their caption. Where the caption is missing, the table is announced along the lines of "6 columns, 20 rows" by [[VoiceOver]]. I suspect that other software says something similar. Unless the user is a mind-reader (!), this is no good at all. What do others think? What can we do? I do not want to spend my whole editing career adding captions to existing tables! [[User:CrazyBuilder|<span style="color: #db0000">Crazy</span><span style="color: #3c78b4">Builder</span>]] [[User talk:CrazyBuilder|talk]] 20:08, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
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