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== Using optional parameters ==
This template does not allow for the author of the reference to be added to it, which should be part of the template. -- [[User talk:LGagnon|LGagnon]] 17:46, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
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A version with optional parameters has been created as part of consolidation of these templates. Lowercase parameter names are preferred. ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 15:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC))
* Uppercase parameters (obsolete):
**
* Lowercase parameters:
** <cite style="font-style:normal;">[[Template:Web reference|Web reference]] error: Parameters '''url''' and '''title''' must be specified Doe, John (April 30, 2005). [http://www.example.org My Favorite Things Part II]. ''Encyclopedia of Things''. Open Publishing. URL accessed on [[July 6]], [[2005]].</cite>
* No parameters specified, showing required parameters:
** <cite style="font-style:normal;">[[Template:Web reference|Web reference]] error: Parameters '''url''' and '''title''' must be specified .</cite>
* [[ISO 8601]] YYYY-MM-DD format:
** <cite style="font-style:normal;">[[Template:Web reference|Web reference]] error: Parameters '''url''' and '''title''' must be specified Doe, John (April 30, 2005). [http://www.example.org My Favorite Things Part II]. ''Encyclopedia of Things''. Open Publishing. URL accessed on [[2005-07-06]].</cite>
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Variants of [[Template:Web_reference]] have been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Web_reference variations]]. Thank you.
# {{
# {{
# {{
# {{
# {{
— ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 04:01, 15 November 2005 (UTC))
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:: Yes it is. I have restored them. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich ]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough| Farmbrough]]'' 19:26, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I see the purpose to wikilinking them for user preferences, although there is no actual purpose to wikilinking them. In the future, please do not make threats in edit summaries—it only brings down the quality of Wikipedia. — <small>[[User:Brian0918|<b
:Re: ''"In the future, please do not make threats in edit summaries—it only brings down the quality of Wikipedia."'' I assume you refer to the edit summary of SEWilco on the revision as of 08:53, 23 November 2005 where he wrote ''"(...) .Read warning about understanding before changing."'' If I'm correct with my assumption, I would like to write that I do agree with SEWilco's sentiment. Please assume good faith of SEWilco as I feel he was just concerned about the possible effect of changes to this template. The template is used in a truckload of articles and I think we should therefore be cautious about making changes to the template as a lot of users are affected. Beeing bold is a good thing but it should be applied with care. I would propose to present new ideas for this template on this talk page here before doing significant changes. This does not mean that new ideas should be suppressed and I do value all contributions. Maybe new ideas could be presented under the user space of the inventor, together with some test cases on the discussion page (a — maybe not exactly so good — example for a test template under user space could be [[User:
Currently, although there are wikilinks, the date in this template does not appear the way it should according to the user preferences. I tried to have a look at the code, but couldn't find anything there, maybe someone more familiar with the code could try to fix that... --[[User:Fritz Saalfeld|Fritz
:Hallo Fritz. If I do
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*{{web reference
| title=My Favorite Things Part II
| url=http://www.example.
| date=2005-07-06
}}</nowiki></pre></code>
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:Which is expanded at the moment you read this as (indented):
:
::*<cite style="font-style:normal;">[[Template:Web reference|Web reference]] error: Parameters '''url''' and '''title''' must be specified  [http://www.example.org My Favorite Things Part II]. URL accessed on [[2005-07-06]].</cite>
:
:and I switch the date format in my user settings I get different displays of the date.
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:For example if I have set it to "No preference", I get (A):
:
::*[http://www.example.
:
:If I have set it to "16:12, 15 January 2001", I get (B):
:
::*[http://www.example.
:
:If I have set it to "16:12, January 15, 2001", I get (C):
:
::*[http://www.example.
:
:If I have set it to "16:12, 2001 January 15", I get (D):
:
::*[http://www.example.
:
:If I have set it to "2001-01-15 16:12:34", I get (E):
:
::*[http://www.example.
:
:Could you explain what exactly does not work? – [[User:
::On several pages the date is listed like "January 15 2001" while I have my settings to "January 15, 2001" (your C). This only seems to occur when the year is set as a seperate argument, e.g.
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*{{web reference
| title=My Favorite Things Part II
| url=http://www.example.
| date=July 6
| year=2005
}}</nowiki></pre></code>
::becomes
::*[http://www.example.
::instead of
::*[http://www.example.
::Hope that helps. --[[User:Fritz Saalfeld|Fritz
:::Thanks for clarifiying. You are right. I could reproduce that. Date preferences do not work if the "date", "year" variant of the template is used. At the moment, date preferences only has an influence if the whole date (including the year) is specified with "date". I do not know whether this is intentional. Maybe we could state that specifying the whole date with the "date" parameter should be preferred by users when inserting calls to this template. I personally prefer to use only "date" in ISO format, as this is clear how to interpret in all languages. – – [[User:
:::I've got an idea how to fix that. I'm working on a new version for the code of web reference. Watch at [[User talk:
:::I think I got it fixed. I invite all to review my proposal to change web reference at [[User talk:
::::As far as I can see it works. Thanks for doing that! --[[User:Fritz Saalfeld|Fritz
:::Saved to web reference as revision 2005-12-03 17:03:09 UTC. Please revert quickly if you see something broken. – [[User:
== Idea of AzaToth, as contributed 11:07, 23 November 2005 ==
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</noinclude></nowiki></pre></code>
I'm just going to revert this right now as I would like to discuss this first. – [[User:
:I'm reporting that I have reverted to the revision as of 08:53. – [[User:
*Ok, there is mostly a indentation made, simlar to the indentation in {{
:*Could you explain (to a dummy like me :-) ''"... I added numbered params to all calls to ensure if someone have '''=''' as argument"''. I suspect your intent was to catch a usage error with this, but I'm too blinded to see this. Maybe you could give an example? – [[User:
::* If you want to pass argument '''foo=bar''' you have to type '''1=foo=bar''' etc... Because this is a complicated template, it's better to be safe than not, therefore, add number as param-name catches those attributes, it will also show the user he/she typed wrong, when author's name is '''John=Doe'''. Also it's easier to see if a parameter belongs to one call or another. --[[User:AzaToth|AzaToth]] <sup>[[User_talk:AzaToth|talk]]</sup> 14:32, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
:::* I'm trying to understand. Please correct me: If someone erroneously tries to assign the value "John=Doe" to the template parameter "author" he would do what? He would write <code><nowiki>{{web reference|1=John=Doe ...</nowiki></code>? – [[User:
::::* Ok, this template have no First/Last parameter, so this particular example is bogus. But think if the user forgot a '''<code>|</code>''' in it's argument.<code><nowiki>{{web reference|work=foo publisher=bar}}</nowiki></code> will give <code>foo publisher=bar</code> as value to '''work'''. --[[User:AzaToth|AzaToth]] <sup>[[User_talk:AzaToth|talk]]</sup> 14:52, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::* Confusion still increases with me. You write ''"This template has no First/Last parameter"'''. Yes that's correct. The template does not have a paramater with the name "First" and neither a parameter with the name "Last". But what does that tell us? – [[User:
::::::* First/Last was just a example, used by other reference templates, I was refering that a parameter in this template, even if you have not consider it, could take a '''=''' as value by some sense (like format could for example be a format called '''foo=bar'''). --[[User:AzaToth|AzaToth]] <sup>[[User_talk:AzaToth|talk]]</sup> 15:18, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::::*If I just say that I do not understand what you want to say (and even say how I understood it) how can I ''not consider'' you? However, I'll stop here. My final qualification of your proposal (as I sorted out how I understand it) follows. – [[User:
:: The "numbered params" added to "all calls" does not refer to calls to {{
:::What means ''"specifically indicated"?'' – [[User:
::::It means that a parameter unless specified/indicated, will be the parameter 1..n, for example <nowiki>{{if|a|b|c}}</nowiki> is the same as <nowiki>{{if|1=a|2=b|3=c}}</nowiki>, but <nowiki>{{if|a=a|b=b|c=c}}</nowiki> is as it is. --[[User:AzaToth|AzaToth]] <sup>[[User_talk:AzaToth|talk]]</sup> 16:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
:I think we should not apply AzaToth's proposal. While it catches unimportant usage errors such as <code><nowiki>{{web reference|author=John Doe=bar}}</nowiki></code> it significantly complicates the template code. The presented solution intelligently solves a nearly inexistent or not so prominent problem. As I understand it, AzaToth's proposal assigns inside the template values to <
::I think you have missunderstand us, unnumbered parameters are numbered, but you can't see it, they get numbered on the fly, where you tinking about sending a parameter '''1=2=1'''?. Also, do you think that indenting the code make's it more complicated? --[[User:AzaToth|AzaToth]] <sup>[[User_talk:AzaToth|talk]]</sup> 17:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
:::"unnumbered parameters 1 and 2" was a botch by me. Sorry. I wanted to write "AzaToth's proposal assigns inside the template values to unnamed parameters 1 and 2". Is that correct? – [[User:
::::Yes, thats correct, there are two reasons to have the parameters specified, one is to catch values with embeded '''=''', one is to have a better look what parameter belongs to what function/template (if '''|1=''' comes after '''|2=''' you probably understand that they not belong to the same template call). The numbering is not necissary, but I personally think it's better to specify them for a hint to others that we are using this specified parameter. --[[User:AzaToth|AzaToth]] <sup>[[User_talk:AzaToth|talk]]</sup> 18:08, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
:::Indenting does *not* make the code more complicated. If that was your main goal, then please go for it. – [[User:
:::"thinking about sending a parameter 1=2=1". No. I thought about things like <code><nowiki>{{web reference|green|blue|gray|author=John Doe....}}</nowiki></code>. Just as a not so useful example. – [[User:
::::<code><nowiki>{{web reference|green|blue|gray|author=John Doe....}}</nowiki></code> will be ''expanded'' to <code><nowiki>{{1=web reference|2=green|3=blue|4=gray|author=John Doe....}}</nowiki></code>, i.e. if you specified a parameter, it won't be extra expanded. even if you type <code><nowiki>{{web reference|author=John Doe|green|red}}</nowiki></code> it will be expanded to <code><nowiki>{{1=web reference|author=John Doe|2=green|3=red}}</nowiki></code> (see [[m:Help:Template#Named vs. numbered parameters]]) --[[User:AzaToth|AzaToth]] <sup>[[User_talk:AzaToth|talk]]</sup> 18:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::I completely agree with this statement. But that abviously does not help to solve my misunderstanding. I propose that I'll stop now completely about your proposal. Please revert my revert. – [[User:
::::::We are only humand :), have reverted your revert --[[User:AzaToth|AzaToth]] <sup>[[User_talk:AzaToth|talk]]</sup> 18:38, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::::I think I found a minor bug: <code><nowiki>{{web reference|green|blue|gray|author=John Doe....}}</nowiki></code> will be ''expanded'' to <code><nowiki>{{web reference|1=green|2=blue|3=gray|author=John Doe....}}</nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki>{{web reference|author=John Doe|green|red}}</nowiki></code> it will be expanded to <code><nowiki>{{web reference|author=John Doe|1=green|2=red}}</nowiki></code>. – [[User:
::::::::Yes it's correct --[[User:AzaToth|AzaToth]] <sup>[[User_talk:AzaToth|talk]]</sup> 19:41, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
::Talking to myself: I wrote (at 17:38) ''"As I understand it, AzaToth's proposal assigns inside the template values to unnamed parameters 1 and 2, in fact using them as variables."'' No, this is wrong. The code as presented by AzaToth does *not* assign to unnamed parameters of '''web reference'''. All assignments to unnamed parameters ("1=", "2=", "3=") are unnamed parameters at the scope of the respective '''called templates''', which are {{
:::Hehe, sorry if I twisted your mind :) I thought it was best to be on the safe side when typing complicated templates. Perhaps my english is not so good after all :( --[[User:AzaToth|AzaToth]] <sup>[[User_talk:AzaToth|talk]]</sup> 21:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
::::It's not just a thing for complicated templates. And your english is quite fine. And it's me who is the newbie. – [[User:
:Dammed. I finally see what you template geeks are doing. Sorry for stealing your valued time. AzaToth, I think your original proposal is even better than the one that came out after my stupid intervention (I whish I had not, but you are so dammed fast). Sorry sorry. That's really strange stuff that if an actual parameter of a template contains a "=" char the original code behaves that strange. Thanks for the lesson! – [[User:
Ping pong, a new little template is available now {{
== Strange bug with space chars ==
I've documented a very strange bug under my user space at [[User:
:I have reworked the handling of space chars (revision as of 12:26, 30 November 2005 UTC). The bug seems to have disappeared. – [[User:
== Apologies ==
I had this open for reference and edited it by mistake, apologies [[User:
== Logic templates on WP:AUM ==
See the discussion on [[Wikipedia_talk:Avoid_using_meta-templates#Logic_templates]]. – [[User:
== Change proposal: break dependency on template tl ==
I propose to do [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:See_also&diff=prev&oldid=32463859 this] also here. Admin help needed due to protection. – [[User:
:Done by Ral315 ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AWeb_reference&diff=32901764&oldid=30648852 diff]). Thanks. [[User talk:
== HTML cite element, anchor ==
{{
<nowiki><cite style="font-style:normal" id="Reference-Smith-2005">[content]</cite></nowiki>
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Why is this template blocked? Is there a Wiki policy that is now in place since the markup language became more complex? Thanks, [[User:Stevenwmccrary58|Steven McCrary]] 17:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
:Hi Steven. Sadly, this template is blocked because it is a high-use template (several thousand articles depend on that) and the current implementation of templates in MediaWiki has the problem that if a widely used template is changed, all dependent pages are changed ''immediately''. This can even lock the data-base server for seconds, which is said to be very bad. So this template here would make a fine vandal vector. Please note that I have not blocked this template and I'm not a admin but I agree with it beeing blocked. However this does not mean that this template should never be changed. If you have a change proposal write it on this talk page and wait a bit what others say about it. If there are no objections, simply ask an admin to make the change or unprotect the template for you. (See also [[Wikipedia:High-risk templates]] and [[Wikipedia:List of permanently protected pages]]). Disclaimer: [[WP:AUM]]. [[User talk:
::
:::Just an Idea: What about starting a development branch under a subpage, for example under [[template:web reference/dev]]? We could then do the usual wiki-process of editing there and after consensus ask admins to copy a revision identified as "to release" (by consensus) over to the "hot" template. [[User talk:
:::Sounds good to me. I have done so. [[User:Stevenwmccrary58|Steven McCrary]] 20:44, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Ok. Now we need test cases to demonstrate that all old and new features still work. Think I start that at [[template:web reference/dev-test]]. [[User talk:
==Proposed change==
I agree that {{
Note: I have implemented the change at [[Template:Web reference/dev]].
Test the development at [[template:web reference/dev-test]]. [[User:Stevenwmccrary58|Steven McCrary]] 21:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
:See also the discussion at [[Template talk:Web reference/dev#Proposed change below]]. [[User talk:
The format of the id should follow the one in {{
:Michael, thank for the input, good idea, however the formatting is different in {{
:: Eek, that's too bad. Is it possible to harmonize all of these for consistency, by changing one or the other? They should all be able to work together as a unified framework.
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:: Barring changing one or the other because they are already in wide use, can one or more be replaced with a similar template with compatible output, so that the old version can be deprecated and the new one phased in gradually? Sorry to be so clueless, but I only started dealing with references in a long article recently ("[[T-34]]"), and I'm unfamiliar with most of these templates. ''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]] [[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]] <small>2005-12-30 22:21 Z</small>''
Good question! I am a member of that club as well. I have exchanged discussion with [[User talk:
== &nbsp; addition request ==
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--[[User:BACbKA|BACbKA]] 19:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
:I have done that change on the [[Template:Web reference/dev|dev branch]]. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AWeb_reference%2Fdev&diff=34405109&oldid=34404162]. But I would like to investigate a bit further before asking an admin to copy that to the "relase" (I'm not an admin). Can you point to an article where that bug you want to fix with this change happens? [[User talk:
Sure thing. See [[3D Monster Maze#References]], and wiggle the right margin of your browser to make it happen (so that just the right amount of text spills over to the next line in those refs that are web references). --[[User:BACbKA|BACbKA]] 21:19, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
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| date=2005-12-16}}
</pre>
uses the <code>date</code> parameter. So year is not set and the line with your &nbsp; is ignored in this case. The date is emited as [[2005-12-16]] (<-look at the wiki source of this!) by the template and the MediaWiki software translates that on the fly to your preferred date format (which is set in your preferences). Inside that translated date I see no way to influence the line breaking. But I also think it is ok to write the year onto the next line. Did I miss something? (Anyway I go now to bed. Good night! See you tomorrow :-). [[User talk:
*Actually, the date is only auto-formatted if you put it in the form yyyy-mm-dd:
**
**
**
**
**
**<cite style="font-style:normal;">[[Template:Web reference|Web reference]] error: Parameters '''url''' and '''title''' must be specified  [http://you-are-ell you-are-ell]. URL accessed on [[2005-12]].</cite>
**<cite style="font-style:normal;">[[Template:Web reference|Web reference]] error: Parameters '''url''' and '''title''' must be specified  [http://you-are-ell you-are-ell]. URL accessed on [[2005]].</cite>
*[[User:Gracefool|··gracefool]] |[[User talk:gracefool|☺]] 22:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
:*Hmm. Think I have a deja vu. Haven't I fixed that somewhere before already? (scratching my head...). I will take a closer look at that. --[[User:
:*It's a bit complicated as it is (don't ask me why it came so into the template). See the doc. You can leave off the year from the date parameter and specify that in the separate year parameter. So you can write (look at the wiki source):
:::*
:::*
:::*
:::*
:::*
:*--[[User:
I'm probably missing something, but none of the above examples cures the spilled year problem (look at the resulting HTML source --- there's no nbsp before the year). --[[User:BACbKA|BACbKA]] 11:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
:That's correct. I think I already said above why this can't be cured. I also think it needs not to be cured, because it is simply ok as it is. --[[User:
Sorry, I thought from your later writings that you were going to fix it anyway. My inspiration for a non-breakable space in such places comes from [[Donald Knuth]]'s ''The T<sub><big>E</big></sub>Xbook''. I feel that in the beginning of a line, a number followed by a period looks ugly, and gives an impression of a numbered list item on one's quick scanning of the area (of course, when one reads into the context, and looks at the neighbouring lines, the perception goes away, but the ugliness remains IMHO). I agree that this is not a very high priority thing, but, if at some point, a way to fix it w/o a lot of effort becomes available, I'll be happy. (For the record, bibtex also suffers similar problems :-) ). --[[User:BACbKA|BACbKA]] 14:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
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<a href="/wiki/2005" title="2005">2005</a>
</nowiki></pre>
:The html that is produced depends on the date setting in your "my preferences" (see on top). I do not see how to influence that html without changing the mediawiki software. The template is certainly the wrong level to do that. --[[User:
Sorry for having missed it, you indeed had said that already the first time. I agree fully, the template code is not the right place to try to tweak that. Unfortunately, the prefs only let one select from a predefined set of strings, I can't force an nbsp insertion there... Thank you very much for your patient explanations! --[[User:BACbKA|BACbKA]] 15:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
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== Moving to template cite web ==
Hi all. I would like to introduce a move to the new {{
Motivation: web reference currently provides both upper and lower case parameters, which is nedlessly complex and brittle. cite web is much simpler as it provides lower case only. cite web is also less likely to break and it is easier to throw in stop-gap measures like weeble code or [[Wikipedia:hiddenStructure]] hack if some god should shoot {{
I have done the same on {{
Please note that it is not safe to just throw out the upper case params on web reference, even though nearly all calls already use lower case. We need two templates while doing the move to make sure that no article is hurted. There is no way to tell for sure that each and every article uses only the lower case parameters of web reference.
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Per the name: we already have a bunch of cite xxx templates. See [[:category:citation templates]].
Thank you for your careful consideration. --[[User:
: Maybe cite uri would be better than cite web? --[[User:BACbKA|BACbKA]] 13:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
::
=== field name changes ===
Also, it would be nice if before we move, we discuss some field name changes, such as ''date'' and ''year'' to ''accessdate'' and ''accessyear'' (easier to understand their use), and likewise ''publishyear'' to ''year''. This won't be hard to do with [[WP:AWB|AWB]] as part of the move, right? [[User:Gracefool|··gracefool]] |[[User talk:gracefool|☺]] 13:28, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
:Simple parameter renames are no problem. Of course I agree dicussing first. I've added a warning text to {{[[Template:cite web|cite web]]}} so that it's not used prematurely. We should also wait putting the deprecated tag here until there is consensus what to do exactly. This went wrong on book ref last time. --[[User:Ligulem|Ligulem]] 13:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
:I agree with the renames date → accessdate, year → accessyear, publishyear → year. --[[User:Ligulem|Ligulem]] 13:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I support the above change as well, makes usage of various cite xxx templates more consistent with each other. --[[User:BACbKA|BACbKA]] 15:37, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
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