Talk:Saint Patrick: Difference between revisions

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==Celtic Language?==

|action2date=02:07, 15 September 2007

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It says in the article that after St. Patrick was captured he began to learn "the Celtic language." It is commonly agreed among Irish historians that the Irish are not actually Celtic (e.g. the Irish learned the Celtic style of art from communication with the European mainland, etc.). So did they speak the Celt language? I defer to an expert on this one. {{unsigned|User:24.226.16.47}}

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:To be more precise, what the article means is that he learned "a [[Goidelic language]]" or "the [[Old Irish language]]". Patrick would have already spoken a [[Brythonic language]] and some Latin. Depending on exactly where he came from in Britain, he might have known a Goidelic language as well. [[Celtic languages]] and [[Insular Celtic languages]] explain how Goidelic and Brythonic may have been related to each other and to other Celtic languages. [[User:Angusmclellan|Angus McLellan]] [[User talk:Angusmclellan|(Talk)]] 00:43, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

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==St. Patrick: Fact and Fiction==

|topic=philrelig

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{{Press

| author = Harrison, Stephen

| title = The Wikipedia Page for St. Patrick Is Surprisingly Good: Here’s why

| org = Slate

| url = https://slate.com/technology/2018/03/why-the-wikipedia-page-for-st-patrick-is-so-good.html

| date = 16 March 2018

| quote = As Adrianne LaFrance noted in the Atlantic, there is no self-evident unifying theory about why certain Wikipedia pages are higher quality than others. But with its combination of primary sources, motivated contributors, and shared vision, St. Patrick’s entry could be hinting at the magic formula.

}}

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== Lutheran saint? ==

What are the sources for the following statments?

The text asserts that Patric is "venerated as a saint in the ... Lutheran church...". Lutheran churches do not recognize "saints" or venerate them, even though Lutheran church buildings may be named after disciples, evangelists or archangels venerated by Catholics as "saints". [[User:Jarmo K.|Jarmo K.]] ([[User talk:Jarmo K.|talk]]) 14:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

*1 - ''"born Patricius Magonus Sucatus"''

*2 - ''" seems to have studied at the monastery of Lérins on the Côte d'Azur from 412 to 415 ...He spent the next 15 years at Auxerre were he became a disciple of Saint Germanus of Auxerre and was ordained possibly about 417."''

*3 - ''"Saint Germanus consecrated Patrick bishop about 431, and sent him to Ireland to succeed Saint Palladius, the first bishop, who had died earlier that year. "''

*4 - ''"There was some contact with the pope. Patrick visited Rome in 442 and 444. "''

*5 - ''"Popular devotion to Patrick began in France, long before Sucat received the noble title of Patricius"''

:This is plainly incorrect. While they do not make intercessory prayers, they do recognize nearly all pre reformation saints as such alongside several prominent figures from the reformation, and celebrate their feasts in their liturgical calendars.

These and other statments seriously mar what is otherwise a fairly good and reasonably well written article. Also the chronology implicit in them is all over the place. The fact of the matter is that no one know for sure what the dates of Patrick's life are; those of 461 (arriving in Ireland) and 491 (death) are estimates arrived at only after decades of discussion. Will whoever rewrote this article please show the basis for including these statments. Thank you. [[User:Fergananim|Fergananim]]

:Liturgical Calendar for the LCMS

:https://www.lcms.org/worship/church-year/commemorations

:Church of Norway Liturgical Calendar for the month of march

:https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Norway:_Fixed_and_Moveable_Feast_Days_(chronological_order)_for_March

:Church of Sweden Liturgical Calendar for the month of March

:https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Sweden:_Fixed_and_Moveable_Feast_Days_(chronological_order)_for_March [[Special:Contributions/70.31.143.85|70.31.143.85]] ([[User talk:70.31.143.85|talk]]) 14:07, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2024 ==

I've re-revised the article ''again'' in line with what I wrote above, for the simple reason that [[Pcassidy]] reverted back to his version ''again'' without citing sources for statments I take issue with. I dislike doing this unilaterally because it is against the spirit of wikipedia, but it seems I have to draw attention to this in some manner other than being polite. [[User:Fergananim|Fergananim]], 18:52 pm, 18th April 2005.

{{edit semi-protected|Saint Patrick|answered=yes}}

* I did? Where? I just checked through my edits and all I can find is reverts of blatant vandalism and one weird edit (documented below). I also reverted "confession" -> "confessio" in the last two weeks or so - is this what you are referring to? - [[User:Pcassidy|Pete C ]]^{<font color="DarkRed">[[User_talk:Pcassidy|(talk)]]</font>} 18:11, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Add a hyperlink to 'Ireland' in the patronage that leads to the Ireland Wikipedia page. [[User:TheOrange1|TheOrange1]] ([[User talk:TheOrange1|talk]]) 21:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

:{{not done}}:<!-- Template:ESp --> already linked under died and should not be relinked as per [[MOS:REPEATLINK]] [[User:Ultraodan|Ultraodan]] ([[User talk:Ultraodan|talk]]) 13:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

*Hello Pete, glad to hear from you. The basic issues I have with the article as you wrote it - forgive me if I have mistaken you for another editor - are outlined above. I have no problem whatsoever with them being included in an article concerning Pat, so long as they are placed under some heading along the lines of "Speculations about St. Patrick". Because we know so very little about Patrick I really feel it is vital to seperate facts, speculation and hagiography. And - I mean no offense - much of what I have outlined above falls under the latter two categorys. Thank you for your time. [[User:Fergananim|Ferganaim]], 22:08, 15th April 2005.

== Christian not catholic ==

*: OOokay. You have me confused with someone else, I suspect. I've no comments really re. the points of contention above, as I didn't add them. - [[User:Pcassidy|Pete C ]]^{<font color="DarkRed">[[User_talk:Pcassidy|(talk)]]</font>} 22:21, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is misleading to call Patrick Catholic, it should say Christian. The Church in the British Isles were separate from the Roman institution for centuries. [[Special:Contributions/2A01:E0A:EE3:190:47D:2DB0:FF90:2B49|2A01:E0A:EE3:190:47D:2DB0:FF90:2B49]] ([[User talk:2A01:E0A:EE3:190:47D:2DB0:FF90:2B49|talk]]) 11:12, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

* Okay, cheers. Sorry for that! [[User:Fergananim|Ferganaim]]

== Life as Sochet and Maewyn Succat ==

Most theories place St.Patrick's birthplace in Wales. - Peter

'''Life as Sochet'''

:(The above anonymously contributed without reading even the Wikipedia article. No consensus will ever be reached on precisely where in Romanized Britain the ___location ''vico banavem taburniae'' was sited. Wales is among the possibilities. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 02:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC))

"which also appears in [[Muirchú moccu Machtheni]]'s seventh-century ''Life'' as ''Sochet".'' I don't have access to Dumville's book, but I think Muirchu is only known for writing "Life of St Patrick. So what is this "Life as Sochet"?

== Not NPOV ==

'''Maewyn Succat'''

This article presents a great deal of speculative and controversial information as plain fact. For example, I don't believe it's remotely possible to say authoritatively that "His father was Calpornius, a deacon, son of Potitus, who was Romano-British".

:The ''Confessio'', listed in the External links, begins "I, Patrick, a sinner, a most simple countryman, the least of all the faithful and most contemptible to many, had for father the deacon Calpurnius, son of the late Potitus, a priest, of the settlement [vicus] of Bannavem Taburniae..." I'll check to make a footnote in the entry. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 11:17, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's irritating that a bunch of websites quote this as his name, as it seems very shaky. 1) Converting "Magonus" to "Maewyn" is not certain and (2) there's no justification for sticking two of his four hagiographic names together to make a modern-looking name with first name and surname. Anyone got a good source disputing this Maewyn Succat thing? [[User:Dhalamh|Dhalamh]] ([[User talk:Dhalamh|talk]]) 11:31, 4 August 2025 (UTC)

Hmmm... the article currently starts with

:''Saint Patrick (circa '''373''' - March 17, 461) is the patron saint of Ireland. He was born around '''385''' in Caledonia, probably at Kilpatrick.''

(emphasis added)

The last two external links give 387 to 390 as the date of birth... which of these three is correct? (I don't think "circa 373" and "around 385" are the same thing.) [[User:Lupo|Lupo]] 14:07, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

387 to 390 sounds like circa 385 to me, so lets pick that. -- [[User:Derek Ross|Derek Ross]]

Re: Dalriada

According to my sources, the Irish kingdom in Co. Antrim was called Dal Riada. Irish seafarers (called Scotti) carried colonizers from that county to establish the kingdom of Dalriada in Argyll in northern Britain, in what would later become Scotland. -- Larry Gross

Big disparity with the birth dates - why is it now "circa 420s"? -- [[User:Ian Schorr|Ian Schorr]]

==Baptist vs. Catholic POV stuff==

Whatever did 192.31.106.34 do to the page tonight? Deleted legit links and added a major Baptist spin on a reasonably NPOV article? What's up with *that*?? Discussion of trans-vs-con- substantiation don't really belong in a biog. such as this. It reads like a Baptist sermon (which I'm familiar with). Recommend reversion. I've already rv'd the deleted links - that's just vandalism! [[User:Pcassidy|Pcassidy]] 22:38, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Furthermore, large chunks were C&P'd from; http://www.calvaryroadbaptist.org/Article%20-%20St.%20Patrick%20A%20Baptist.htm and various other sites. [[User:Pcassidy|Pcassidy]] 22:50, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:I reverted it as it was basically a POV rant about how Patrick was a Baptist and all the Catholics are wrong, nyaah nyaah. Biased, preachy, irrelevant. I'm neither Catholic nor Baptist, BTW [[User:Pcassidy|Pcassidy]] 14:49, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I thought Baptists were a Protestant group that originated many centuries later. What's going on? [[User:Michael Hardy|Michael Hardy]] 03:55, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

They argue that in fact they predate Martin Luther and Protestantism and were an underground church.[[User:GordyB|GordyB]] 10:48, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is currently a reference to 'Catholic Celtic church', this is extremely POV. The current Catholic church may consider Patrick a Catholic but that doesn't explain why the Pope gave the go-ahead to the Normans to invade Ireland and 'Catholicise' Ireland. The Monks of Iona refused to recognise the Catholic church as being the same as the Celtic church. Even in England the Synod of Whitby came about because the Roman church did not like the Celtic one.

As discussed above many other churches consider the Celtic church to be ancestral to their own e.g. the Anglicans / Espiscopolians (since the church was native to Britain and Ireland and not part of the see of Rome). The Celtic cross is used by the Church of England as a symbol and native Saints e.g. Aidan are seen as Anglican saints.

I think endorsement of one point of view is a bad idea and this article needs a section to discuss the different claims about St Patrick. He is somebody who is popular in Ireland with Protestants as well as Catholics.[[User:GordyB|GordyB]] 15:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

== NPOV ==

Could someone please clean this article up? Specifically: one way or the other, could someone with sources and citations please clear up whether or not St. Patrick killed pagans.(Anon.)

:"NPOV", so abused at Wikipedia, actually means "Neutral point-of-view." --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 15:47, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I too would *really* like to see this cleared up. I have read that St. Patrick was responsible for the death of many pagans, and even accounts accusing him and his followers of burning pagan books and shrines. However, I do not recall any of the sources as being particularly authoritative. Given, searching online doesn't turn up a whole lot along these lines either, but that is the nature of search - so many people like St. Patrick that of course all the high ranking links will be positive. Thoughts?

== categories ==

* would that qualify for 2 "death year" categories? I don't know wikipedia's position on unreliable death dates. ([[User:Clemmy|clem]] 20:54, 1 May 2005 (UTC))

== Patron saints of Ireland ==

If there is no opposition, I would like to add that saint Patrick is the patron saint of Ireland, ''along with [[saint Brigit]] and [[saint Columba]]'', as it is given as fact in [[patron saint]]. [[User:Gene.arboit|Gene.arboit]] 19:47, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

== External links ==

I removed the following as essentially duplicating content in other links. [[[WP:EL]] says where links should be used, it sems to me as if there are rather too many all saying much the same thing.

*[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/patrick/confession.all.html The Confession of St Patrick]

*[http://catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=89 St Patrick]

*[http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintp01.htm Saint Patrick]

*[http://www.stpatrickfathers.org/Saint_Patrick/St_Patrick_Life.html Fr. Ciaran Needham SPS, "Saint Patrick's Life"]

*[http://www.cs.tcd.ie/Dan.McCarthy/chronology/synchronisms/annals-chron.htm Evidence regarding date of birth]

*[http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Patrick/default.asp The Real St. Patrick and Celtic Spirituality]

[[User:Just zis Guy, you know?|Just zis <span style="border: 1px; border-style:solid">&nbsp;Guy,</span> you know?]] ^{[[User_talk:Just zis Guy, you know?|[T]]]}/_{[[Special:Contributions/Just zis Guy, you know?|[C]]]} ''[[User:Just zis Guy, you know?/AfD|AfD?]]'' 00:04, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

== Age? ==

Browsing this topic quickly I noticed the date of birth and date of death given at the top, which puts St. Patrick at an age of 106 upon his death. This isn't commented on anywhere in the body of the article, which seems a bit strange for such a remarkable age.

Citations for birth and death dates would be nice given their relative unbelievability. Catholic.org gives his birth as 387 and his death as 461, dates I am much more inclined to believe.