Talk:Armenian genocide: Difference between revisions

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This is the [[Wikipedia:Talk pages|talk page]] for discussing changes to the [[{{PAGENAME}}]] ARTICLE. ''Please place discussions on the underlying political issues on the [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments|Arguments page]]''. Non-editorial comments on this talk page may be removed by other editors.
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'''[[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines|Talk page guidelines]]'''
 
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Please respect [[Wikipedia:Etiquette|Etiquette]], [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]] and [[Wikipedia:no personal attacks|be nice]].
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{{Controversial}}
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<!--<div class="boilerplate" id="controversial" style="background-color: #cccccc; width: 80%; margin: 0 auto; padding: 7px; text-align: center;">'''While this article is protected from further editing because of a content dispute, there is a working version that you should feel free to edit at [[Armenian Genocide/Working version]].'''</div>-->
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'''Archives'''<br>
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''Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in a archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page.'' -- [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)<br>
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<b>Archives: </b>
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* [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Archive 1|Archive 1 (709 kb)]]
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* [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Archive 2|Archive 2 (698 kb)]]
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* [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Archive 3|Archive 3 (648 kb)]]
*|action5link=Wikipedia:Peer [[Talk:review/Armenian Genocide/Archive 4|Archive 4 (103 kb)]]archive3
* [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Archive 5|Archive 5 (113 kb)]]
* [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Archive 6|Archive 6 (327 kb)]]
* [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Archive 7|Archive 7 (225 kb)]]
* [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Archive 8|Archive 8 (215 kb)]]
* <b>Fadix's Analysis:</b> [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Fadix Analysis|Fadix Analysis (575 kb)]]
 
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* [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/A Letter from The International Association of Genocide Scholars|A Letter from The International Association of Genocide Scholars]]
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It is most fair to remove all material from this topic until 'certain' information and data can be entered. If this certainty cannot be reached then the topic should not be part of WP.
|action9date = 19:20, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
No information is better than disputed, possibly false information. If there is bias then someone's truth is being excluded, and that lacks integrity.
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== clevelander ==
|action10date = 2021-07-04
Why does he get to make changes, he has a biased view on this topic, this is NOT FAIR!!!!
|action10link = Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Armenian genocide/archive1
:It is unlikely that anyone contributing to this article is unbiased. In any case, lack of bias is not a requirement to edit a WP article. Also, please sign your contributions and avoid shouting. -- [[User:Jibal|Jibal]] 16:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
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: I agree with this anon, why should Clevelander be able to contribute? He is certainly not neutral on this issue [[User:Lutherian|Lutherian]] 13:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
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|action11link = Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Armenian genocide/archive2
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::Everyone is able to contribute in any article.--[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 13:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
|maindate=April 24, 2022
|topic=History
|otddate=2008-04-24|otdoldid=207729745
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==Note to self: new sources==
*{{cite book |last1=Akçam |first1=Taner |title=The Cambridge World History of Genocide: Volume 3: Genocide in the Contemporary Era, 1914–2020 |date=2023 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |isbn=978-1-108-76711-8 |pages=67–92 |chapter=The Armenian Genocide: An Overview}}
*{{cite journal |last1=Akçam |first1=Taner |title=Top-Down and Local Violence in the Late Ottoman Empire: The Role of Security Concerns and a Century of “Accumulated Experience” |journal=Journal of Genocide Research |date=2024 |volume=26 |issue=2 |pages=121–141 |doi=10.1080/14623528.2022.2127488}}
 
== Turks massacred by Armenian gangs ==
::: Not in this topic, last time I checked it was blocked [[User:Lutherian|Lutherian]] 13:26, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
Can you add information about massacre of Turks by Armenian gangs? These are documented in books, articles and archival materials. Best regards. [[Special:Contributions/95.12.115.163|95.12.115.163]] ([[User talk:95.12.115.163|talk]]) 20:50, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
::::It is semi-protected due to vandalisms by anons.Clevelander is not an anon.--[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 13:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::Oh, Welllook, imanother notTurkish anIP anontrying andto Idilute cantthe editarticle. it![[User:Xthorgoldx|Xthorgoldx]] ([[User talk:LutherianXthorgoldx|Lutheriantalk]]) 1316:3006, 2818 MarchMay 20062025 (UTC)
:@[[User:95.12.115.163|95.12.115.163]] you heard my voice [[Special:Contributions/85.107.73.92|85.107.73.92]] ([[User talk:85.107.73.92|talk]]) 00:26, 22 July 2025 (UTC)
 
== Why only focus on Armenian deaths? ==
::::::When a page is semi-protected,as u can read in the tag,new users cannot edit either.if u can't edit,that means that u are a new user,right? --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 13:35, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
There are many historical events similar to the Armenian relocation. In World War One, 2.5m Ottoman Muslims were killed. Why are we just focusing on this special group alone? We should give due weight to all deaths equally. All of them were human beings. And it doesn't matter if they were Christians, Muslims, Jews or Buddhists; they were killed. So, this article should mention them. [[Special:Contributions/95.12.115.163|95.12.115.163]] ([[User talk:95.12.115.163|talk]]) 21:05, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
:::::::Relatively new yes, but I find it highly unfair that seasoned users can make modifications because they could very well hold biased views on this highly charged topic [[User:Lutherian|Lutherian]] 13:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:This article is called "Armenian genocide". Therefore, it is about the genocide of ''Armenian'' people. — '''[[User:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i>]]''' <sup>''([[User talk:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">music</i>]])''</sup> 21:57, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
::::::::That's the policy.btw,according to u the specific user is biased,not according to everyone...--[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 13:47, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
::It ought to be included as an introduction to the historical context, just as it was incompletely done in this case - and since the example given is actually relevant to this topic. [[User:Jirozki|Jirozki]] ([[User talk:Jirozki|talk]]) 06:07, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
:How did I know this would be a Turkish IP address even before I checked?&mdash;[[User:Chowbok|<span style="background:black; color:white; font-weight: bold;">Chowbok</span>]] [[User talk:Chowbok|<span style="color:black;">☠</span>]] 04:34, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
:I really think you Turks have trouble understanding EXACTLY what genocide is. It's not just 'people dying'. It's a deliberate campaign to destroy a people. Look it up. [[Special:Contributions/2A0A:EF40:425:D901:B31B:5034:54A:3AEE|2A0A:EF40:425:D901:B31B:5034:54A:3AEE]] ([[User talk:2A0A:EF40:425:D901:B31B:5034:54A:3AEE|talk]]) 14:55, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
:: Enough. Since this is persistent, I have partial-blocked that entire IP range from this article and its talk page for 6 months. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 17:37, 10 June 2025 (UTC)
== "[[:Turkish massacre]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turkish_massacre&redirect=no Turkish massacre]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{section link|1=Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 June 24#Turkish massacre}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Bogazicili|Bogazicili]] ([[User talk:Bogazicili|talk]]) 20:19, 24 June 2025 (UTC)
 
== Dates ==
::::::::: Even if he was neutral on the issue, it certainly wouldnt be the case for all seasoned users so this partial block policy is in fact flawed [[User:Lutherian|Lutherian]] 13:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
One of the main reasons I opposed the infobox is that different sources give different dates for the event. We could find sources for 1916, 1917,1918, 1920,1923,or even the present day (indeed there is a high quality source that makes this argument). We can't fit such nuances in the infobox and the note added by {{u|Arctic Circle System}} only makes it more confusing without really explaining why opinions differ on this point (and indeed most of the other fields in the infobox.) I would be happy to delete it again but either way the note has to go. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 06:50, 15 September 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::That's what u think.sorry,but i agree with the policy,cause in this case the article has suffered a lot by anons and new users.--[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 14:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:I suppose that makes sense, though given the explicit motive of the Turkish invasion of Armenia, it seems like a pretty significant omission. [[User:Arctic Circle System|Arctic Circle System]] ([[User talk:Arctic Circle System|talk]]) 07:27, 15 September 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::: Well maybe thats because its not impartial enough, have you thought of that? [[User:Lutherian|Lutherian]] 14:06, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
::The point I was trying to make is that a wide range of views on what is considered part of the genocide, for example, mass killings mostly stopped in late 1916 or early 1917, the end of the war and liberation of most survivors in 1918, 1918 Ottoman invasion of Armenia, the end of most fighting involving Armenians in 1920 (with large scale massacres both in Cilicia and eastern Armenia), victory of Kemal in 1923, etc. Most sources don't take Karabekir's campaign as the end so the only suitable explanation is currently found in the Aftermath section. We're agnostic about on what is part of the genocide in the article text as I feel like the historiographical debate is not necessary to understand the event ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 12:22, 15 September 2025 (UTC)
 
:::That is true, though with Karabekir's campaign in mind, I don't think 1917 is a suitable end date. Maybe 1923 similar to [[Greek genocide]] with a note pointing to the Aftermath section for further explanation? [[User:Arctic Circle System|Arctic Circle System]] ([[User talk:Arctic Circle System|talk]]) 06:09, 16 September 2025 (UTC)
Impratial? Are you kidding? This site has been hijacked, and the hijcacking is being enforced by partially blocking it. This is turning out to be a big farce!!! [[User:83.77.132.154|83.77.132.154]] 14:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
::::The majority of sources say 1916 or 1917. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 06:22, 16 September 2025 (UTC)
 
:::::{{Ping|buidhe}} Why's that? And what of Karabekir's campaign, which had a clear genocidal aim? Should that be considered separately rather than as part of the Armenian genocide described on this page? [[User:Arctic Circle System|Arctic Circle System]] ([[User talk:Arctic Circle System|talk]]) 17:31, 17 September 2025 (UTC)
:Farse?maybe cause u cannot edit?listen:if the article had not been '''vandalized''' it would not be semi-protected. --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 14:14, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
::::::The 1920 campaign is already covered in its own article [[Turkish-Armenian War]]. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 18:47, 17 September 2025 (UTC)
::says who the admin? since when is the admin objective on this matter? [[User:83.77.132.154|83.77.132.154]] 14:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
:::::::{{ping|Buidhe}} I mean in relation to the events from 1915-1917 and this article. I know that has its own article, but so do various parts of the Armenian genocide. What I'm asking I guess is should Karabekir's campaign be treated as a separate but related genocide or part of this? [[User:Arctic Circle System|Arctic Circle System]] ([[User talk:Arctic Circle System|talk]]) 04:56, 18 September 2025 (UTC)
 
::::::::I think you could argue about it either way, which is why it's covered here but with deliberate ambiguity as to whether it is part of the "Armenian genocide" or a related/aftermath event. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 05:16, 18 September 2025 (UTC)
:::the admin is '''by far''' more objective than u.as i see,u have a record in making personal attacks...--[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 14:20, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:::: easy on the accusations, you are in no position to judge me [[User:83.77.132.154|83.77.132.154]] 14:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::oh yes i am!i am not the one who personally attacks.so,i can say whatever i want as long as i do not cross the line... --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 14:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::: Well from what I see you have crossed the line several times in the past so you are in fact in no position to judge me! And BTW, your dear friend Khoikhoi has been banned from editing for 12 hours, LOL.
 
::::::banned for 3RR,not for making personal attacks like u. --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 14:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::::Since when is stating the truth considered a personal attack? [[User:83.77.132.154|83.77.132.154]] 14:41, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
::::::::That question is often asked by personal attackers. Clearly, whether a personal attack is truthful is a matter of opinion. And also clear, just considering the grammar of the previous phrase, is that whether something is a personal attack is independent of whether it is truthful. Notably, [[Personal attacks]] makes no mention of truth or falsity. What it ''does'' say is "Don't do it There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Do not make them." and "Users have been banned for repeatedly engaging in personal attacks." -- [[User:Jibal|Jibal]] 16:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
:::::::You called me a freak of nature here [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chaldean&oldid=45753057], if thats not a personal attack, then I dont know what is. If your not here willing to learn and contribute in a good way, then by all means, leave. [[User:Chaldean|Chaldean]] 14:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:those are serious accusations that you are making, the ip's dont match and you are suggesting that I am a troll, thats a personal attack, I am reporting you! [[User:83.76.135.121|83.76.135.121]] 15:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
::Please read [[Personal attacks]], which specifically states ''"Your statement is a personal attack..." is not itself a personal attack''. -- [[User:Jibal|Jibal]] 16:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
: Guys, seriously. Stop feeding the troll. --[[User:Eupator|Eupator]] 16:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
== can we call this event as a genocide? ==
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide came into force in 1950 and it is not applicable for the events before this date. legally we can't call this event as Genocide. And please do not forget that in 1915 Turkish and Kurdish civilians were also killed by Armenian forcesç for the full text of the treaty please visit: [http://un.org/law/ilc/texts/treaties.htm]--[[User:Hattusili|Hattusili]] 19:27, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
:There is no law against calling an event genocide, and the killing of various parties by various other parties has nothing to do with this article. You might want to explain why you bring that up. Also, your link is bad. -- [[User:Jibal|Jibal]] 16:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
:Well, what you got here, another user registering to land here. BTW, for the same token the Holocaust is not a genocide because it happened before 1950, good going Hattushil. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 19:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
:For your information Fadix, the term "genocide" has been created after the Holocaust and United Nations resolution about this is solely for the Holocaust and ethnic cleasing events in the future. You can check out the tons of United Nations resolutions that Armenian Issue is NOT regarded as a genocide by the UN AND this kind of issues are not addressed retrospectively, therefore making it impossible to call Armenian issue a "genocide." If Armenian issue were called "genocide" then sure more than half a million killings of Turkish and Sephardic Jews of Ottoman Empire WILL be regarded as the Genocide of Turks and Jews by Armenians. By the way as Shimon Peres and thousands of historians have been stating for the last few decades, Armenians DO NOT have the right to compare their sufferings to that of the Jews. Nothing similar to the Holocaust occurred and hopefully it won't... --David
 
Under the Rome Statue of the International Criminal Court, genocide can be decided by legal principles or by a court of justice. You are right my link is bad I will soon correct it.--[[User:Hattusili|Hattusili]] 18:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
==Checkusers==
 
''It is '''HIGHLY LIKELY''' that Lutherian is most or all of those IPs. It is '''UNLIKELY''' that any of them are Shelby28. [[User:Morven|Matthew Brown (Morven)]] ([[User talk:Morven|T]]:[[Special:Contributions/Morven|C]]) 20:12, 28 March 2006 (UTC)''
 
:So basically it means that out dear anonymous friend has registered at least one login to backup his own position. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 21:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
==Armenian name?==
Hi, Nice article, but what is the Armenian name for the genocide? <b><font color="#00aa00">[[User:Diyako|'''D''']]</font>[[User:Diyako|iyako]] </b>[[user_talk:Diyako|''Talk'']] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Diyako&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new '''+'''] 12:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 
We just call it the Armenian Genocide.
 
<small>[comment moved to [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments|argument page]]. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 11:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)]</small>
 
Also the article needs more and more images [http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Turkish_crimes_pictures.htm]. but of course images in public ___domain.<b><font color="#00aa00">[[User:Diyako|'''D''']]</font>[[User:Diyako|iyako]] </b>[[user_talk:Diyako|''Talk'']] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Diyako&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new '''+'''] 12:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 
==Weasel words==
 
These need to go. See [[Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words]].
 
*''It is believed that''
*''Many historians believe that''
*''According to the same commissions and other records''
*''Genocide scholars answer to those claims, that''
*''Those who support the genocide theses state that ''
*''Some academics point to''
*''There is a general agreement among Western historians that''
 
- [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 16:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 
:The next week I will have time addressing those issues, but of course others may start working on them. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 19:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 
::Agree - at least in part. It is the use of some of these vaugue phrases in the article that causes much of my consternation regarding it. I do think they can be imporved - though it is effort of course (and much seems to fall on Fadix - as much of this article is the result of his dedicated work - but thank you for singling out some instances that perhaps we can work to improve.--[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 23:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 
:::Yeah, I know it is a lot of work, but I think the article would really benefit from their removal. If we more properly source and attribute the claims/facts then there will be much less chance for people to come in and try and add the neutrality tag just for the sake of it, as we can point to the well referenced article. Especially considering the wideness of the acceptance of the thesis. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 00:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 
::::: Agreed. I would love to do such - and perhaps I can make some attempt - however I have to admit - that once I get into something like this - my inate perfectionism takes over - and what I will do is rewrite the entire section - at the very least. I have a hard time just doing an insert edit if I don't feel the concepts are properly represented and information conveyed in a manner beffiting it. And I know this is how I will feel because I already have a difficult time just reading the article as it is in its current state. This is much the reason why I have hesitated making edits with out a mandate to do more then just make minor changes. I don't know if this makes sense - and it may seem rediculous to some - but its just my way - what can I say? --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 00:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 
'''Why don't we work on this first?''' [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 17:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:Hope your good work will continue, but wait for the reversion of document back to the contrdictory editions.--[[User:OttomanReference|OttomanReference]] 18:33, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 
== Bulgaria ==
 
On the list of countries that recognize the Armenian Genocide, I saw Bulgaria. What is the rationale of having Bulgaria on that list, since according to this http://www.arminfo.am/news_250206_2.shtml article, the resolution has been submitted to the Bulgarian Parliament.--[[User:Moosh88|Moosh88]] 00:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 
: nothing, <small>[personal attacks removed - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 10:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)]</small>. A bit like the ridiculous number of pro genocide links that are justly being removed! {{unsigned|62.203.130.47|06:47, 27 March 2006}}
 
 
:: If you knew the history of the Armenian diaspora in Bulgaria more closely, i'm sure you wouldn't be asking this question.
 
==Arguments==
 
Please keep your arguments to the [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments|arguments page]]. As the notice at the top of the page shows, any non-editorial comments may be moved there without further notice. Remember, this is a talk page for a Wikipedia article, not a soapbox. That goes for ''both'' sides of the dispute. Please refrain from [[WP:NPA|personal attacks]] and try and remain [[WP:CIVIL|civil]]. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 10:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:<small>[comments moved to [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments|arguments page]]. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 08:56, 28 March 2006 (UTC)]</small>
 
== Parliament of Kurdistan in exile ==
is an unofficial organization linked to terrorist PKK group as mentioned in their own website [http://www.ariga.com/kurdish.shtml PKE]
Furthermore, its already mentioned in the "official recognition" section so adding it a second time serves absolutely no purpose! {{unsigned|85.1.89.101|18:19, 27 March 2006}}
 
:: PKE is mentioned already in the "official recognition" section! To mention an unofficial organization with clear terrorist links for a second time is totally unwarranted for!!! Please remove! {{unsigned|83.78.105.144|07:06, 28 March 2006}}
 
:It is important to mention Kurdish recognition for many reasons but primarily because most of the actual people that carried out the killing of Armenians in the Eastern provinces were not ethnic Turks but ethnic Kurds!--[[User:Eupator|Eupator]] 13:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
::I agree with your remarks but as the anon mentioned above, the KPE is being mentioned twice in the same section. There is no need to mention it twice [[User:Lutherian|Lutherian]] 13:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:::I've removed the double mention, no reason whatsoever to mention it twice. Also i've referred to it as "so-called", since its only a parliament in exile by name. --[[User:A.Garnet|A.Garnet]] 18:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
::::How about "self declared" instead of "so-called". "so-called" seems to be sarcastic. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 18:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::Sure. --[[User:A.Garnet|A.Garnet]] 18:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
== Map showing recognition ==
 
Can someone double check whether that map is accurate. Having looked at the ANI list of [http://www.armenian-genocide.org/current_category.7/affirmation_list.html Resolutions, Laws, and Declarations] I cannot see Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, Norway as recognising a genocide as the map (and this article) suggests. --[[User:A.Garnet|A.Garnet]] 17:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:Also i cannot see Australia on that list either. --[[User:A.Garnet|A.Garnet]] 18:27, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
::What is amazing is that you often remove things that should stay but request commenting when things should be removed. With the number of aliases and new users contributing in here, it is very difficult to have an eye on all this. Everything not on the list should go..., also, everything Halacoglu say should stay in the Turkish government section, he is the president of the Turkish historical society, which is basically Ataturks governmental founded institution which write the official Turkish government line, if they don't, who does? [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 19:32, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:::I request comments when i am unsure, i thought perhaps someone may have seen something i have not. That you think things i remove should stay is your opinion, i have frequently secured others people opinions on things i delete, and if it is lacking, i have not gone ahead with it, or reverted it. --[[User:A.Garnet|A.Garnet]] 20:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
::::Whatever you say Garnet, I am not right now requesting a discussion on that. As strong as we have disagreed, at least I am sure you are not a sock. BTW, Pamuk is a novelist, Turkish researchers and other Turkish intellectuals or known figures should be separated from eachothers. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 21:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 
== turkish thesis==
I think we should make another page about the Turkish thesis, to provide neutrality and place links between these two pages. [[Armenian Genocide (Turkish Thesis)]] --[[User:Hattusili|Hattusili]] 12:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:Hi, thats a very bad idea. We call those [[WP:NPOV#POV_forks|POV forks]]. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 12:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
"NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints" but this article does not fairly represent the opposition. We cannot request unprotection for this page because radical nationalists may ruin it all. so what should we do? --[[User:Hattusili|Hattusili]] 13:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:One option would be to make a copy of this page in your userspace or in the article space, e.g. [[Armenian Genocide/Working version]] edit it and then request that it replace the current page when there is consensus among all reasonable editors on the talk page. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 14:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:: you gotta be joking, thats a very bad idea! [[User:Adendum|Adendum]] 15:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
:::Please explain why you think it is a bad idea, and what you propose instead. -- [[User:Jibal|Jibal]] 16:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
: It already exists: [[Holocaust denial]], under Other.
--[[User:Eupator|Eupator]] 17:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
Holocaust denial is totally different from what we are argueing here, the Turkish side also have strong evidences about their claims so that an article about Armenian Issue should include their thesis. wikipedia has to be neutral in such issues. --[[User:Hattusili|Hattusili]] 17:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
<small>[comment moved to [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments|argument page]]. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 20:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)]</small>
 
As a side note, an article on [[Non-Armenian casualties during the Armenian Genocide]] would probably not fall under the definition of a POV fork. Providing the page did not duplicate information here and was restricted in scope. As far as I'm aware the main Turkish argument is that "lots of people not just Armenians died" so a page explaining that would probably be good. The page could then be linked from here using the {{tl|main}} template. Just a suggestion, feel free to shoot it down... - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 17:57, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:Unencyclopedic proposition. It is like starting an entry about 'Non-Jewish casulties during the Holocaust' etc. The reason why the Armenian genocide has it own casulties entry is because the position of an Armenian genocide exist and is more than a fringe. An encyclopedic entry would be 'Ottoman casulties during and after WWI' or something such. Besides, 'during the Armenian Genocide' does not make sense because not much or if any revisionists have placed any 'alone' figure for the period when most Armenians have died. As professor Daniel Panzac an autority in Ottoman history writes, most Muslims died after the period most Armenians have died and that for this reason both casulties are not related. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:That might be a good idea. During the Holocaust, there were other groups besides Jews who were killed, such as gay men, and I think they have their own seperate article. [[User:Shelby28|Shelby28]] 02:43, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
:: If this is your reasoning then the appropriate articles in relation to the Armenian Genocide would concern the Greeks of Anatolia and the Assyrians of Anatolia who were both subject to very similar genocidal policies and actions directed by the CUP/Young Turks. In fact the actions against the Greeks (of the Aegean coastal regions) began in earnest as early as 1913 and were akin to a Kristnacht against the Greeks that lasted for over a year. These massacres and forced expulsions were a prelude to the Armenian Genocide where the CUP was testing the waters as it were to see if their actions would provoke a response from the West. Then beginning in 1916 as the peak of the Armenian Genocide was winding down renewed actions were begun by the CUP against the Greeks - this time concentrating on the Greeks of the Black Sea (Pontos) region and against Assyrians who primarily resided to the south of Anatolia proper. Like the Armenians these groups experienced horrible massacres and expulsions at the hands of the Ottoman Turks and like the Armenians these communities were decimated and no longer exist today. There has been no such genocide against Anatolian Turks to warrent a collalary article BTW. Unless of course we place such in the fantasy and fiction section. --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 08:14, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
:::Well, I don't know yet. I would have to see what kind of an article somebody would write about the deaths of a large number of Muslims/Turks around the same time period before I could decide whether it was fair or not. [[User:Shelby28|Shelby28]] 00:30, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
:::: Would you consider it sufficient if Turks present a story of 500,000 (and in some cases I've seen 3 million etc) Muslims/Turks supposedly killed by Armenians during this period - where there are absolutly zero eyewitness reports for such things? Where the only "evidence" is the unsupported/uncorraborated claims of the Turks themselves? Where the only academics who adhere to such views are ones who are Turkish and/or in the employ of the Turkish government (in terms of grants and stipends etc)? Because this is what you will have. The record of this period is well known. There was no Turkish genocide during this period no more then the Germans can claim such (and blame the Jews) for thie deaths in WWII. When are people going to wake up and understadn what is going on here? --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 14:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
:::::Again, I would have to see what was written and the references it had before I could decide whether it was fair or not. From what I understood of FrancisTyer's proposition, it wouldn't be an article about any Turkish genocide, but rather an article discussing the many Muslim/Turk deaths. If such an article were written, I would approach it with an open mind before deciding if I thought it was objective and neutral. That's all I'm trying to say. But since no such article exists yet, and I wouldn't be the one writing it anyway, there's really nothing more I can say.[[User:Shelby28|Shelby28]] 00:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
:::::: What would be the point of such an article? Why is such an article needed outside of a generic article concerning casulaties of nations involved in WWI? (or just as some factoid in an article concerning WWI in general) What relevance is this to the Armenian Genocide? Are there articles concerning British or German or Austrian casulaties of WWI? Is there an article concentrating on Christian deaths during WWI? I totally fail to see the interest or purpose of such an article (unless somehow it be supporting the perpetuation of Turkish denilaist propoganda). Does the fact that Turks/Muslims died during WWI have any bearing on the factuality of the Armenian Genocide? Does the fact that (huge numbers of) Germans died during WWII have any relevance to the factualness of what is known and accepted concerning the Holocaust? If it looks like s***, smells like s***, tastes like s***....then I can only conclude...--[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 01:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
:::::::At the risk of repeating myself for the third time, I would have to see the article before I decided whether it served a purpose or not. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. It would depend on how it related to the main article, the sources used, how well it was written, etc. I'm just not ready to immediately dismiss FrancisTyer's proposition before even seeing how someone would write it. I simply prefer to keep an open mind, so perhaps we can just agree to disagree. But right now, there is no such article and I don't personally plan on writing one - so I don't feel I can comment further on the purpose, point, or objectivity of an article that does not exist.[[User:Shelby28|Shelby28]] 13:20, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
:::::::: Oh - well as long as we are talking about entirely theoretical articles I would like to see one concerning mermaid deaths in the Sea of Maramara during the Armenian Genocide as a result of Turkish troop transport ships leaking oil...do you likewise have no opinion concerning this article until you see it in writing? Well I think that the knowledgeble objective person could and should have an opinion about such things - particularly when making suggestions about what ought to be in an encyclopedia obstensibly based upon fact and not myth and fairie tales...--[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 14:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::If someone wants to write about mermaid deaths, sure, why not. And if it's pointless, doesn't have good references, has no basis in reality, then it can simply be deleted. Nothing in Wikipedia is set in stone. In general, I don't like saying 'No, you can't write about that' before giving someone a chance to see what they can actually come up with - cause maybe I'll be surprised and it'll be something good. I'm not trying to get you to agree with me. Everyone approaches Wikipedia differently - this is simply the approach I take.[[User:Shelby28|Shelby28]] 23:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::In general? Well, you only contributed to this article, mostly in its talk page, I don't see how you can draw a generality over your participation. Also, it event became an approach you took? When and where you took such an approach. The decision on creating articles depend on the subject, and either or not it is encyclopedic. The only notable figure who separated losses of Ottoman Muslims is Justin McCarthy, and he is considered the Rassinier of the Armenian genocide. Besides, separating losses as Christian and Muslim deaths is discriminatory, the only reason the Armenian genocide has its casulty pages is because there are various notable books about the issue of Armenian losses. While Ottoman casulties of WWI and after, is encyclopedic, there is no reason to exclude other groups in creating articles. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 01:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::I was explaining how I feel in general when it comes to creating new articles. I didn't realize I had to show previous examples of my approach to justify anything to you. This is not about me, so please don't make it personal. And if anyone writes such an article, it won't be me, and I don't get to make any final decision regarding its existence. I've repeatedly explained my position, so if later on an article is written, we can discuss its merits further - but until that time, there's no point in continuing to argue.[[User:Shelby28|Shelby28]] 01:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::::It wasn't personal before you made it personal. Generality assumes a repetition, you can not draw a generality out of something, when you are limited to this article, and that's how your presence is limited to. There is nothing personal in me saying this. Also, again, like I said, subjects are either encyclopedic or not, I could always write an article about my left hand, it could be sources with various pictures, still the subject isen't encyclopedic. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 03:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Why is this so difficult to understand? I was talking about how I approach the idea of creating a new article. The fact that you didn't have prior knowledge of my thoughts on this issue doesn't make my opinion any more or less valid. And go ahead and write an article about your left hand; if other people don't feel that it belongs in Wikipedia, I'm sure it'll be deleted in no time. And to me, that's how Wikipedia works. I never said you had to feel the same way.[[User:Shelby28|Shelby28]] 05:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::I think an Ottoman Muslim casualties during WW1 is actually a good proposition for an article. It doesnt have to do anything with this article, but can show a side of WW1 which is always overlooked. The figures can show not only casualties sustained in fighting, but also from expulsion from the Balkans, and occupation in wake of Treaty of Sevres. --[[User:A.Garnet|A.Garnet]] 00:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::You are proposing a thesis, creating articles under the justification of the subject being overloocked is not encyclopedic, it is the notability that makes of a subject encyclopedic, by far per population there has been more Christian casulties than Muslim in Anatolia, and the only notable researcher that say else is McCarthy, Irving is notable, but notability for an encyclopedic article doesn't end on a persons notability but the notability of a subject too. The Ottoman casulties during and after WWI is notable, dividing a certain group based on religion is not. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 01:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::Again - the linkage with this issue with the Armenian genocide is nil and I don't understand why it is even being discussed here. Likewise how are casulties of Ottoman Muslims who were expelled from the Balkans have anything to do with either Armenians or WWI? This event did not occur during WWI. And Ottoman Muslim casualties from the "occupation in wake of [the] Treaty of Sevres"? Are you kidding me? Treaty of Sevres was never put into effect? And occupation of what by whom? What does this additional fiction have to do with the Armenian Genocide? - except as I have been contending and as is obvious - as a diversion from the Ottoman Turkish culpability in the Armenian Genocide - which is what this article we are allegedly discussing here is about. I suggest that those who are interested in the mortality of Mermaids and Turkish indegestion as a result of eating too much taffy while boating on the Bosphorus in sprintime be discussed on some other talk page.--[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 01:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
what about starting an entry about "Turkish Casualties in Eastern Anatolia in 1915" or "Armenian armed operations and forced emigration" ? I think it can be a fair start. --[[User:Hattusili|Hattusili]] 18:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
: You can have WWI Turkish casualties.--[[User:Eupator|Eupator]] 18:38, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
<small>[comment partially moved to [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments|argument page]]. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 20:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)]</small> Wikipedia should not be allowed to be used as propoganda for hateful genociders - for those who perpetuate genocide through its denial. None of this would even be remotel;y allowable in a Holocaust article and this article should be no different. --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 19:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
You see, I have left this article for near a week I think and thought that things will settle down, but this is not what happened, visit any pages, or the Hereros, or the Khmer Rouge regime, the Holocaust, the Ukrainian famine, the Hereros genocide etc., etc., etc... and tell me if there is at least one other equivalent article that has given as much space or if any members there had as much patience as I had here.
 
No, no 'Turkish Casualties in Eastern Anatolia in 1915,' and the reason is obvious, very obvious. You can attempt to build a parallel page to this, it won't make it much encyclopedic. Why? Here some reasons why, the Ottoman records were dumping the entire Muslim population, no separation between the groups, in the East, the Kurds, the Circassians, etc... were the majority Muslim population, besides maybe Erzerum or some other places, whos majority Muslim population were Turk I think. Many Muslims died during WWI(millions of Germans died in World War II), but most of Muslim casulties happened starting with mid 1916, when already over 800,000 Armenians have died. Besides, there has been a war between the Arabs and Turks, between Kurdish revolutionaries and Turks, there has been Envers megalomany sending his army on the front to freeze in Winter, or the starving army in the East, and this as a result of the ministry of the war evacuation of the Armenians which deprived the East and amputating the food supply.
 
So, you see why you can't have a Turkish casulties page? Because Turks were not separated from other Muslims. Also, there was very few Turkish civilian casulties in 1915, Muslim casulties jumped upward in 1916, during which time the Eastern zones Armenian population was gone.
 
Does the Turkish government section not give enought space for your second proposition? Don't forget that when I have proposed this, there wasn't much space for the Turkish position, you don't expect to have nearly half of the spaces in the main article and another full for the Turkish position, do you? [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 19:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 
<small>[comment moved to [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments|argument page]]. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 20:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)]</small>
 
 
== hateful genociders ==
you are so biased that you do not hesitate to use such terms against people who does not think lilke you.--[[User:Hattusili|Hattusili]] 10:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== Armenian Genocide ==
 
<small>[section moved to [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments|arguments page]]. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 01:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)]</small>
 
==Vandalised page==
I think it was [[user:rovoam|rovoam]] who vandalised this page. If he gets blocked he comes back on another IP address and these are the type of pages he vandalises. Be careful of him as he's the most dangerous and persistent vandal in all of wikipedia.
 
Thank you.
 
[[User:Micoolio101|Micoolio101]] 07:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 
==Armenians==
 
Are they not as important as the Jewish so their deaths are called a genocide instead of an holocaust? Or is the word holocaust used only for what happened to the Jews between 1939 - 1945?
 
[[User:Rastishka|Rastishka]]
 
:The term holocaust means burning by fire, it was indeed used during the period to discribe what happened, but the first time it was used to refer to Armenian sufferings was the burning of the Armenian town in Adana, in which thousands of Armenians were consumed by fire in April 1909. The term Holocaust with a capital 'H' is used to refer to NAZI war crimes in Europe (in the ghettos and the concentration camps), mostly Jews, it also refers to other groups like the Gypsies, it is not much of the appropriation of the term than rather the capitalisation. Also, the term genocide isen't to be taken more lightly than holocaust, while what happened in Adana in 1909 was a holocaust, the restrictive term for genocide would somehow excludes to its qualification as such(genocide). Holocaust with a capital 'H' doesn't mean exactly the same thing as 'h,' the capitalisation refers to a specific event and this doesn't mean in anyway that Armenian deaths are less important. Bernard Lewis before his departement was founded by Turkish institutions himself has used the words 'Armenian Holocaust' to refer to those deaths and this term is still used quite frequently but not as frequently as the most used term 'Armenian Genocide' which is official and should remain as such. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 01:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:: yes, hmmm, lets see which term has the greatest impact, we need to feed our propaganda machine! And lets also try to link the Armenian massacres to the Holocaust of the Jews, like that we may just get their support on this matter! [[User:85.1.33.43|85.1.33.43]] 05:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::Anonymous, you are hardly credible in your role as an Armenian. With what new trick you will come up with? :) [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 06:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::: Its called sarcasm my dear Fadix, I am surprised you didnt catch that! [[User:81.213.178.166|81.213.178.166]] 06:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== ??? ==
<small>[discussion moved to [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments|arguments page]]. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 11:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC)]</small>
 
==Armenian Genocide photos==
You can see the photos [http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Genocide_Photos here] I will be adding them to the article when the page gets unprotected--[[User:CltFn|CltFn]] 05:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:No you are not. The copyright status of those images are highly disputed. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cool Cat]]<sup>[[User talk:Cool Cat|Talk]]|[[Special:Emailuser/Cool Cat|@]]</sup></small> 09:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:: They are in the public ___domain. That is an easy one.[http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/training/Hirtle_Public_Domain.htm Public Domain Chart]--[[User:CltFn|CltFn]] 11:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== This discussion, as well as this topic on Wikipedia have become ridiculous ==
Where is the moderation? Where is the logic? The way this article has been presented and discussed transcends personal biases, and is primarily meant to instill propaganda for both ends.The historical relevance of this article is horrendous, furthermore it does not provide the reader with the opportunity to gain a logical understanding on the Armenian or Turkish claims.Propaganda techniques, such as association (comparing the Holocaust to the Armenian Genocide claims) ruin any validity this article can have, and until this article is cleaned up it will remain a stain on Wikipedia. {{unsigned|Blasphemy}}
 
== Scholars should be cautioned against accepting this page as reliable citation ==
I am compelled to agree with the above. This is an affront to anything remotely scholarly or historical. It is time you all accepted that the Armenian Genocide page on Wikipedia is a failed project, scrap it entirely and leave it to better qualified people to start again.
 
In a recent unrelated debate concerning the dispute between Britannica and a research group that stated Wikipedia is just as accurate, I challenged my opponent to present, following his claim that Wiki was full of nonsense, an article that was indeed full of nonsense. He directed me here and I promptly conceded defeat.
 
=="the forced mass evacuation and related deaths" ==
 
This statement is the intro is horseradish. Makes it seem like the Ottoman's were so kind as to "evacuate" the Armenians , for their own protection no doubt , and how unfortunate that the Armenians accidentaly died in the process.--[[User:CltFn|CltFn]] 04:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:I think forced evacuation is a good term, it took a while to find a good term. Forced evacuation is one of the most efficient way of extermination. The Germans used it against the Herreros at the beggining of the last century, the Turks with the Armenians, NAZI Germany did the same with the Jews, Gypsies and other groups, Khmer Rouge regime attempted it etc. The words forced evacuation doesn't cover what happened to those evacuated, but those things are covered in the article. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 16:16, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== Protection ==
Folks, please discuss changes. Please also let me know when everyone has calmed down. (Be aware that the protection is not an endorsement of the current version.) --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] ([[User talk:Nlu|talk]]) 05:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:This article should always be partially blocked in my opinion. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 16:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
Yes, there has been little discussion in this article for most of April...so hash it out here and not on each others talk pages. I have to agree with the use of the word "deaths" over massacre but only because it is better English.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== From [[User:CltFn|CltFn]]'s talk page ==
 
NPOV means taking all sides of an issue into consideration, ''no matter how accurate you see one side to be''. Let me give you a good example of this - check out the [[Adana massacre]] page. It gives both the Armenian and the Turkish side. We may not see one side as the "truth", but that's not what NPOV is about, it's about neutrality. Calling the events of the Armenian Genocide "massacres" is POV. I really hope you understand what I'm saying. &mdash;[[User:Khoikhoi|Khoikhoi]] 04:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
: A massacre is defined as The act or an instance of killing a large number of human beings indiscriminately. And that is exactly what happened . --[[User:CltFn|CltFn]] 04:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
::That's the Armenian side. NPOV means including '''all''' sides. &mdash;[[User:Khoikhoi|Khoikhoi]] 04:34, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::Not quite right, the Turkish government position does not exclude massacres, a term can be used if it is a majority view and its oposition is a fringe. I haven't placed massacre there simply because 'death' is better English and not because massacre is not NPOV, it actually is according to Wikipedia policies, Turkish intellectuals dispute the number and accuse Kurds of having been the responsable of those massacres but does not dispute that there actually was massacres. Death is a good term, because it includes any type of deaths (massacre, starvation etc.) <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] ([[User talk:Fadix|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fadix|contribs]]) 16:10, 16 April 2006.</small><!-- [Template:Unsigned] -->
 
::[Referring to CltFn's comment] This is POV because the intentions /motives are disputed. [[User:KillaShark|KSK]] 04:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::Massacre does not imply a motive, does it? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] ([[User talk:Fadix|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fadix|contribs]]) 16:10, 16 April 2006.</small><!-- [Template:Unsigned] -->
 
: Massacres were but one tactic used in perpetuating the Armenian Genocide. We need to describe the sort of massacres that occured as well as detail the other methods (CUP Ottoman Turkish directed forces) used for MASS KILLING of Armenians. --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 17:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== Permanent partial block ==
 
Any comment? [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 16:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:What is this - I don't understand?--[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 16:57, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
::My suggestion is a permanent partial block of the article. Those who are not registered and new users restriction to edit it. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::: ??? [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 01:38, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== Important Interview with Andrew Goldberg - producer of documentary The Armenian Genocide ==
 
<small>[moved to [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments|arguments page]]. - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 08:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)]</small>
 
== Genocide Denial - links and information ==
 
I think the following links must be included in the article and the denial of the Armenian Genocide - includign attempts by Turks and such here to do so - must be presented in their proper light - as genocide denial and nothing more. --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 17:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
Some links -
 
http://www.csuchico.edu/mjs/center/teaching_resources/armenia/articles/George_Aghjayan/4a%20-%20Genocide%20Denial%20-%20A%20Comparison.pdf
 
http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=27
 
http://users.ids.net/~gregan/ethics.html
 
http://ermeni.org/english/cleansingarchives.htm
 
http://www.gendercide.org/case_armenia.html
 
http://www.theforgotten.org/denial/
 
This link actually concerns Turkish affirmation of the Armenian Genocide (which also needs to be presented more comprehesively in the articel itself) -
 
http://www.csuchico.edu/mjs/center/teaching_resources/armenia/articles/Associated_Press/Turkish%20Affirmation%20of%20the%20Armenian%20Genocide.pdf
 
--[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 17:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 
: THOTH, you sick man, stop using propaganda and leave it where it belongs -> the deep end of the rubbish heap [[User:83.76.143.246|83.76.143.246]] 18:53, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== Technical Fixes ==
 
The article says that "The majority of the camps were situated near the Iraqi and Syrian frontiers", but neither "Iraq" nor "Syria" existed at this time (it should be something like "situated near what is now the Iraqi and Syrian frontiers"). Also, Dayr az-Zawr is on the "Euphrates" river, not the "europhites". The footnotes should be fixed as well to go to the correct number. [[User:Makgraf|Makgraf]] 03:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:You are right. As for the footnotes, it was all scrapped when Tommils started 'reorganizing' the article. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 04:45, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== POV forks ==
 
Just to mention that there are at least two controversial [[WP:NPOV|POV]] pages on the same topic, [[Armenian Genocide and Turkish National Movement]] (apparently written by an Armenian nationalist) and [[Armenian allegations]] (a text dump from a government website cited here, by a Turkish nationalist). Both are badly written and I suggest merging any useful content into section 4 and 5 before they are removed, and maybe creating a new section to describe Armenians seeking acknowledgement/redress.
 
It may be necessary to go a bit deeper into the concept of genocide in general in order to justify the title to a more inclusive group. The [[genocide]] article refers to the definition in the 1946 Convention and the quote by Raphael Lemkin that also appears in ''Genocide'' (1981) by Leo Kuper. --[[User:Cedders|Cedders]] 11:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:Thanks for bringing this issue. Both articles have been created by a Turkish nationalist, not an Armenian involved there. The first ones content has nothing to do with the title and I still don't see the relevency of its existence, it is just a dumping of some unrelated stuff.
 
:You are right about the second point, I did already in the past suggested creating an article about the concept of genocide and the Armenian cases.
 
:Lemkin’s(who coied the word genocide) first studies concerning war “crimes against humanity” as brought from H. Yahreas’ work, The World’s Most Horrible Crime, Colliers, vol. 127, 3 March 1951 was the Armenian cases. The author retraces Lemkin’s interest concerning war crimes and exterminationand reports that one of first conversation that Lemkin had about the subject was at Lvov University in 1920, when he engaged in a discussion concerning the extermination of the Armenians with his Russian Law professor. Rabbi Steven L. Jacobs, Temple B’nai Shalom, Huntsville, Alabama, and Martin Methodist College, Tennessee, who has researched Raphael Lemkin’s papers, has classed some of those concerning the Armenians and compiled them by the name "Lemkin and the Armenian Genocide." Lemkin also referred to the Armenian case, in his work “Le Crime de Génocide” as an example of extermination. Quoting here from its English version: “history has provided us with other examples of the destruction of entire nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for example,… and more recently, the massacre of the Armenians.” (By Raphael Lemkin, American Scholar, Volume 15, no. 2 [April 1946]).
 
:Lemkin started his works concerning “Crimes against Humanity,” a term first used in this context during WWI when discribing the Armenian massacres. Lemkin claims that this was one of the major reasons he decided to become a lawyer. He also gave as reference the Armenian case in his work “Genocide” whose aim was to describe what a genocide is.
 
:The German word often used for the word genocide, "Völkermord" has been used to describe what happened to the Armenians, even before the introduction of the more official word, “genocide.” An example of the usage of the word "Völkermord" could be found in the work of S. Zurlinden, "Der Weltkrieg, Vol. II (Zürich: Art. Institut Orell Füssli, 1918), p.649.
 
:This German word had not the legal aspect that the word genocide does. Lemkin at that time was pressed to release his studies and the legal aspect of such crimes, in order to have legal bases for the prosecution of people responsible of such crimes(NAZI crimes). For Lemkin the criminals responsible for the Armenian genocide were released, and for him the reason was because there were laws binding countries concerning killers and criminals, but there were no laws for criminals that in the name of a state and from its laws commit genocide, as he wrote, “Why is the killing of a million a lesser crime than the killing of a single individual?” And it is exactly why, in 1944, Lemkin was preparing the legal aspect, and knew that once the war was over these NAZI criminals would be released in the same way that the criminals responsible for the Armenian genocide were released if there were no new laws that could permit judgement of the criminals.
 
:Lemkin primarily invented the term in order to have a legal basis to condemn people accused of such crimes, in order that such criminals do not escape justice like they had done in the case of the Malta prisoners, and also to name such crime that until then there was no word to describe. For Lemkin the Armenian case was the archetype, the case that was used as jurisprudence, in order to come up with legal bases to condemn NAZI criminals, and be sure that the same mistake that happened in the post-World War I period were not to happen in the post-World War II period or ever again.
 
:Months before the introduction of this word in 1948 by the UN, on the date of May 28, 1948, on which date the United Nations war crimes commission released a report concerning the mass slaughter of the Armenians in World War I, followed by, the same year, on the date of December 9, 1948, the publication of the Genocide Convention by the United Nations High Commission for Human Rights. Obviously, the United Nations report released on May 28 was part of their study that permitted them to release, months later, what would become their official definition of the word genocide. Later in 1973, a reference in one of the United States papers concerning the Armenian genocide resulted on the part of Turkey to pressure the United Nations to withdraw the case of the Armenian genocide from the list. Due to the intensification of these pressures, the case of the Armenian genocide was redrawn in 1978, until another extensive study was to be conducted, thanks to Turkey the ressources and researchs in what had to become the official UN report in genocide ended up to be a failure. Turkey killed the UN official report on genocide and Jurisprudences just because of one cases it could not permit. I will be created in Summer an article about the UN report of the 70s on genocide and how Turkey killed it.
 
:Here, a quote from Lemkins unofficial biography
 
:"In 1915 the Germans occupied the city of W. and the entire area. I used this time to read more history, to study and to watch whether national, religious, or racial groups are being destroyed. The truth came out only after the war. In Turkey, more than 1,200,000 Armenians were put to death for no other reason than they were Christians ... '''This is nothing but personal opinion'''After the end of the war, some 150 Turkish war criminals were arrested and interned by the British Government on the island of Malta.'''And what happened in Malta? - the British had failed to prove the guilt of the accused at Malta, and your reference still calls them a criminal, that's bias certainly''' The Armenians sent a delegation to the peace conference in Versailles. They were demanding justice. Then one day, the delegation read in the newspapers that all Turkish war criminals were released. I was shocked. A nation was killed and the guilty persons were set free. Why is a man punished when he kills another man? Why is the killing of a million a lesser crime than the killing of a single individual?
 
:I identified myself more and more with the sufferings of the victims, whose numbers grew, as I continued my study of history. I understood that the function of memory is not only to register past events, but to stimulate human conscience. Soon contemporary examples of genocide followed, such as the slaughter of the Armenians in 1915. It became clear to me that the diversity of nations, religious groups and races is essential to civilization because every one of those groups has a mission to fulfill and a contribution to make in terms of culture.... I decided to become a lawyer and work for the outlawing of Genocide and for its prevention through the cooperation of nations.
 
:A bold plan was formulated in my mind. This consisted [of] obtaining the ratification by Turkey [of the proposed UN Convention on Genocide Ed.] among the first twenty founding nations. This would be an atonement for [the] genocide of the Armenians. But how could this be achieved? ... The Turks are proud of their republican form of government and of progressive concepts, which helped them in replacing the rule of the Ottoman Empire. The genocide convention must be put within the framework of social and international progress. I knew however that in this conversation both sides will have to avoid speaking about one thing, although it would be constantly in their minds: the Armenians."
 
:[Source: With permission of the Rare Books and Manuscripts Division, the New York Public Library, Astor, Lenox, and Tilden Foundations.]
 
:There is much to be said about the applicability of the term genocide and the Armenian cases, my answer is just an introduction to show you that it is a subject in itself and would require its own entry. But maybe including a section with a resume in this main article would be relevent. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:Does anyone check these references? I found this article from Oxford Journals, "Turkish Military Tribunal’s Prosecution of the Authors of the Armenian Genocide: Four Major Court-Martial Series, Genocide Study Project,Spring 1997" Paper itself says they never saw the actual documents quoting from the paper "the actual transcripts still are not available to scholars" and it continues "relying upon other sources". This paper is about trial proceedings. If you don't have access to proceedings what is the basis for this theory? How can you refer to something as a proof which itself couldn't refer to any actual document? You're not allowed to post stuff that starts with 'it is believed that...' but people actually refer to some papers that has claims based on 'it is believed that's.
 
::Either you haven't read it carefully or you have quoted selectivly on purpouses, but for the sake of it, I will assume good faith.
 
::This paper actually say from where it has been taken, let quote: ''The juridical proceedings and findings of the Turkish Military Tribunal as recorded in Takvimi Vekâyi, the official gazette of the Ottoman government, whose supplements (ilâve) served as the judicial journal of the Tribunnal, form the basis of this article. The "Key," or main, Indicment and the "Key Verdict," as well as other subsidiary indicments and verdicts were based on primarily official and authenticated documents (a practice followed later at Nuremberg as well). As far as is known, outside Turkey only the Jerusalem Armenian Patriarchate Archive and the Nubar Library in Paris own the originals of these "supplements" issues. The official published transcripts of the debates in the Ottoman Parliament's Lower House (Meclisi Mebusan) and Upper House (Meclisi Ayan) in November and December 1918 have also been utilized. The Turkish daily press has been consulted for some of the details of testimony given by defendants and witnesses in pre-trial interrogations and various sittings of the court.''
 
::''The auxiliary sources reinforce the findings of the Military Tribunal. ...'' (pp. 31-32) Not to mention that the paper contains 7 pages of footnotes, which is well source considering that it is only a paper.
 
::It is true that the original transcripts of the tribunal are not available, and it would be naive to expect that the Turkish government will make them available, including to Turkish historians close to the government, but they have been published in the Takvimi Vekâyi as stated in the article. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 02:25, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::Fadix Maybe Turkish sources are naive. Because '''they are actually available at Directorate General of State Archives of the Prime Ministry National Archives. You can even reach digitized documents from after 1900 using State Archives website. You can see hard copies on site.'''
:::You don't even need that much of a literature survey. If you Google it you can find current and previous prime ministers' invitations to Armenian scholars to examine archives and discuss the issues. But Armenian side (Kocharian and Balakian) everytime comes up with 'there's no discussion, you'll accept it approach'. Recently Radik Matrosian and Dennis Papazian were invited to a Symposium (December 15 2005) but they decided not to discuss the matters. A lot of people on Wikipedia defend the Armenian thesis, can anybody tell me why everybody avoids discussions or try to stop Turkish point of view from being heard? If that's as ridiculous as you think, let other people see it for themselves without your interferance. Why Armenian scholars and experts refrain from discussing it and miss such a great chance of proving the other side wrong? Why do people refer to opposing idea as 'in denial'? Don't you know that Turks also call this a tragedy and wish it never happened? There are many interesting facts that are often used for support arguments. Especially the Hitler quote. Source of this quote is a newspaper article in Times on November 24, 1945, London not Nuremberg Tribunal. Nobody denies that this quote was never in Nuremberg Tribunal. They just forget to mention it. Everyone also skips the the fact that his talk was about invasion of Poland not the Holocaust. After all this embellishment (by the newspaper) and failing to mention what the talk was about, this speech is used to justify the link between Hitler's stance and Armenian Genocide issue.
 
::::We are here to write an encyclopedic article, and personally I have no time to waste on what both sides recycle from nationalist articles as you do, I limit myself on peer reviewed materials. An example of such nationalistic trash, is your claim of the Turkish government 'invitation.' This has been recycled again and again. But little is said about the actual letter of Kocharian as answer, which was acceptation but with a condition of relations between both republics. Turkey still has a closed border with Armenia, the losses are estimated in the tens of millions per year because of that blockage, yet Turkey while denies any relation with Armenia request such investigation. It is like Israel accepting Iran's offer of investigating the Holocaust. They didn't accepted it and for a reason, Iran doesn't have any relations with Israel and still maintains a xenophobic attitude, in such conditions there is no country in the world that will accept. Second of all, it is true that Armenian intellectuals don't participate in such discussions, because they are not discussions but monologues in which both parties discuss and neither are there to come up with a solution but rather sell their products. The Turkish government request for investigation and themselves have proposed it, was not to discuss but to 'prove' that the genocide did not happen, they have shown no inclination to change their position but 'prove it'... so many questions the value of such discussions and here not only Armenian scholars have refused such invitations for those reasons.
 
::::Comming to the claim that the archives are open, where are the transcripts of the court martial? Where are they? They are nowhere to be found. I have documented here from Turkish sources, that there were specific orders to destroy records regarding the decisions that concern the Armenians. Just recently Hilmar Kaiser the German historian who was finally given back access to Ottoman recirds claims to have uncovered two archival records very similar to two of the Andonians. As for Hitlers quote, it isen't in this article, please discuss about what is in this specific article. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:30, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::Fadix let's talk about your peer reviewed stuff. I'll start with making some statements that no Armenian will disagree. '''First let's talk about The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1915–1916 by Bryce and Toynbee (1915). Quoting from gomidas.org "In 1916 the British Parliament published a "Blue Book" that identified the events of 1915–16 as a systematic effort to exterminate the Armenian people. The Blue Book has been one of the most solid and influential sources on the Armenian Genocide." This book is one of the most referenced in your peer-reviewed articles. Ara Sarafian also has many publications that rely on historical records "United States Official Documents on the Armenian Genocide (Archival Collections on the Armenian Genocide)" of 5 volumes. Another major source of Armenian allegations come from Aram Andonian''' whose work is called forgery by many authors, to name one Erich Feigl in "The Myth of Terror."
 
::::::You are simply making this up, the Blue Book is not one of the most referenced in peer-reviewed articles, for the simple reason that peer-reviewed articles most of the time are new interpretations or new studies, while the Blue Book stend by itself and has done its time. How many paper can you cite in which the Blue Book is one of the most referenced. And no, there is no much author that call the Blue Book as forgery, and that you haven't found better than Feigl to make your point is an evidences of that. Feigl wrote that book adviced by those close to the Turkish ambassy after that his close friend a Turkish ambassador was killed by ASALA terrorists. His book was written before the uncensured version with the identification of the reporters has been published. Feigl shut the Blue Book without knowing such a thing as the key of names of the authors every existed in British records. Edgar Hilsenrath in his book: Das Marchen vom letzten Gedanken. Munich and Zurich: R. Piper, 1989 covers Feigl book as something that is so misleading that it is worthless. Also, the British government just recently confirmed the autenticity of the Blue Book, Toybee one of its author wrote decades after the book was written a confirmation of its autenticity and in his autobiography repeated its conclusions and discribing the event by using the word genocide.
[[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 15:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::::Fadix, Toynbee died 31 years ago, he can't recently confirm anything and he didn't write an autobiography. Somebody else wrote his biography. And I don't think you understand how this referencing thing works. If I write something today about physics, I don't have to refer to Isaac Newton. But at some point my reference's reference's reference will lead to his papers.
 
::::::::I know when Toynbee died, The Blue Book was published in 1916, his 24 acquaintances recorded memoirs in his Acquaintances in an partial autobiographical fashion book was published in 1967. thosefor decades after the Blue Book was published. He writes in that book published in 1967:
 
::::::::"The collection and collation of the evidence from which the Blue Book [The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire] was compiled had occupied most of my working time for an umber of months; and, after the Blue Book had been published, I could not dismiss its contents from my mind. I was not only haunted by the victims' sufferings and by the criminals' deeds; I was exercised by the question how it could be possible for human beings to do what those perpetrators of genocide had done.
 
::::::::My study [of Armenian Genocide]...left an impression on my mind that was not effaced by the still more cold-blooded genocide, on a far larger scale, that was committed during the Second World War by the Nazi.
 
::::::::Any great crime - private or public, personal or impersonal-raises a question that transcends national limits; the question goes to the heart of human nature itself. My study of the genocide that had been committed in Turkey in 1915 brought home to me the reality of Original Sin."
 
:::::But please ignore this comment for the moment and keep reading. '''Aram Andonian published his book in 1920.'''
 
::::::Are you trying to intimidate me intellectually? [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 15:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 
In January 1919, '''140 high-ranked Turkish government officials were taken into custody because of allegations about them on Armenian Genocide. They were taken to Malta. Things I'll mention are referred to as Malta Tribunal.''' Investigation ended in November 2, 1921. '''All of them were released due to lack of evidence. All the aforementioned documents were available before November 2, 1921. Toynbee and Bryce's book was even published by British government who did the investigation. At the time Ottoman archives were in Istanbul which was under British occupation. American archives were also examined.''' “There are in hands of Majesty’s government at Malta a number of '''Turks arrested for alleged complicity in the Armenian massacres. There are considerable difficulty in establishing proofs of guilt.''' Please ascertain if the United States government is in possession of any evidence that would be of value for the purpose of prosecution.” BritishArchives. PRO—F. 0. 371/6500/ E.3552, Curzon to Geddes Telegram No 176, dated March 31,1921.
:::::"'''I regret to inform your Lordship that there was nothing therein which could be used as evidence against the Turks who are being detained for trial in Malta.''' The reports seen made mention of only two names of the Turkish officials in question—those of Sabit bey and Suleyman Faik Pasha — and even in these cases the '''accounts given were confined to the personal opinions of the writers; no concrete facts being given which could constitute satisfactory incriminating evidence.'''" British Archives: PRO—F. 0. 371/6504/E.8515 R.C. Craigie, British Charge d’Affairs at Washington, to Lord Curzon, Telegram No 722 of July 13, 1921. Andonian's documents were offered to the court also during Soghomon Tehlirian trial but once again this time another court didn't consider it an evidence.
 
Had you actually read the archive of this talk page, maybe you would see this has bee covered and being a pure fabrication.
 
The Malta Tribunal that never existed. The revisionists often fabricate a Malta tribunal that actually never took place.
 
Actually, there was only one Turkish searcher that really adventured in this subject. He published various works (Turkish and English(mostly the translation and reedition of the Turkish versions) about this topic, and it is Bilal N. Simsir. I will just quote the last words from his work: “The Deportees of Malta and the Armenian Question.”
 
“As a result, all detainees at Malta were released and repatriated without being brought before a Tribunal.”
 
Even he admit there was not Malta tribunal.
 
Denialists of the Armenian genocide often claim that a “Malta tribunal” was conducted by the British, and after investigations and prosecutions, the prisoners were released because of lack of “proof.” But according to historical records there never was any Malta tribunal; such lies are meant to fool the innocent reader into believing that the extermination of the Ottoman Armenians never occurred and in the same time to divert the attention from a real tribunal which concluded that, in reality, the Armenians were victims of extermination. In fact, the Turkish military tribunal brought evidence from Ottoman high officials that the Armenians were victim of a premeditated plan to annihilate them. The apologists of the genocide claim that the tribunal in question was set by the Allies and therefore not credible. Such denialists don’t realise that such a claim would just as well discredit the Nuremberg Tribunal that brought NAZI war criminals to be judged; because the Nuremberg Tribunal was conducted by the Allies, while the military tribunal was a Turkish tribunal, so, if a "Turkish" tribunal was controlled by the "invaders," so was the Nuremberg. And if, in fact, the documents presented during the Turkish tribunal were forged, one wonders why the Turkish government until today forbids access to them. If they are forged???, why the fear of making them public?
 
Additionally, what denialists fail to mention is that many of the prisoners of Malta were handed to the British officials after being convicted as guilty by the Turkish military tribunal; in fact, there was supposed to be two tribunals, the first one being a Turkish one to judge and send to Malta those being charged, and after the end of the same tribunal to provide to the British officials the documents that allowed them to charge the criminals sent to Malta.
 
The claim that Malta prisoners were taken without any selections is groundless when reviewing the files attached to each prisoner. One example here is the one of Mustafa Abdul Halik Bey.
 
Mustafa Abdul Halik Bey Malta No. 2800 Interned 7.6.20
 
Appointments:
 
“Vali of Bitlis, March 1914 to September 1915. Under Secretary of State, Ministry of the Interior. Vali of Aleppo October 1915 to April 1917 Brother in law of Talaat.
 
Lists:
 
His name appears on Lists VI and VII ( List VII is the F.O. List).
 
Arrests:
 
A. He was arrested by the Turkish Government on 9 March, 1919, not upon our suggestion. The charge was murder. On the Turkish prison list of 7 February, 1920, he is stated to have been released on bail; date not provided (probably some time between 20.9.19 and 7.2.20).
 
B. He was again arrested by the British Military Authorities on or about the 14 May, 1920.
 
Petitions: None to date, 25.2.21
 
Accusations:
 
5027/A/20. Through Mr. Ryan on 19th September 1919. Mustafa Abdul Halik, Vali of Bitlis, took part in the councils held at Erzurum to decide on the deportations and massacres of Armenians. These councils were presided over by Dr. Behaeddin Shakir, delegate of the Central C.U.P. (one of the Principal Eight); other members were Tashin Bey (a deportee), Vali of Erzurum; Muammer (a deportee), Vali of Sivas; and Djevdet (a deportee), Vali of Van.
 
5030/B/10. On September 26, 1919, Mrs. Sophie Varjabedian, a Bitlis refugee then at Haidar Pasha, c./o. Rev. B. Bedrossian, Bible House, Constantinople, writes accusing Mustafa Abdul Halik, Vali of Bitlis, of having carried away under his personal superintendence the safe from the American Mission in Bitlis. The safe contained her money and jewellery. Miss Chane, now at Erivan, reported this to Mrs. Varjabedian. She asks for the restoration of her property and gives a list.
 
Assistant High Commissioner approved the suggestion of making inquires at the United States Embassy but there is no record as to whether any action was taken.
 
5031/A/6. Name merely appears on a Bureau d'Information Armenien list of 30. 12.18, as the Vali of Aleppo, in connection with Marash massacres.
 
5035/C/178. On June 7th, 1919, Mrs. Ahisag Ahet Ahlahadian writes, through the A.C.R.N.E (American Committee, Relief in the Near East), saying that she is a Protestant Syrian of Bitlis and that all her relatives had been massacred in 1915 in Bitlis in spite of the fact that she had paid the Vali, Mustafa Abdul Halik, to the extent of LT 541 gold.
 
5036/48. A. Account by Sympat Kerkoyan of crimes committed by Mustafa Abdul Halik at Bitlis in 1915. Starving prisoners; massacring 200 to 300 at a time outside the town; ravishing and massacring the women; extorting and looting of Armenian property. The stench from putrefying bodies was so bad that Buheddin, Director of Health, Bitlis, received orders to have the bodies incinerated. Buheddin was in Aleppo in 1918. B. Also murder of Djerdjis Kerkoyan, brother of Sympat after Mustafa Abdul Halik had extorted his fortune on promising to spare his life. C. Mustafa Abdul Halik replaced Bekir Sami Bey (the "good" Vali, now a prominent Nationalist) at Aleppo on 4.10.15. There he gave orders for the deportation and killing of Sympat Kerkoyan. Thanks to Hadji Yehia Galib Bey, the defterdar (now the defterdar of Kastambol), Sympat reached Mossul alive. The above per Mr. Rizzo on 16.10.19.
 
5030/A/21. Statement by Sympat Kerkoyan, merchant of Bitlis dated 19.5.20. Bitlis May 1915 atrocities. Massacre of Kerkoyan's family; wife and three children; three brothers and their families. Kerkoyan's deportation to Mossul by the Vali of Aleppo; Mustafa Abdul Halik.
 
…”
 
This prisoner (Abdul Halik Bey) was not arrested without reason; from British archival records it is evident that Abdul Halik was present at the Council held in Erzurum to put in application the extermination measures. From the same British archival records, Cevdet the governor of Van, Tashin, Muammer, and Dr. Sakir were also present during that Council. The group was even called “all the very worst of criminals.” (Source: Report of September 19, 1919, Andrew Ryan, BFO 371/6501, pg 4, folder 540/40)
 
The British had even selected some of the prisoners that should, under no circumstances, be released, and about the four governors that planned and executed the eradication of the Armenians in Eastern Ottoman, after documenting their guilt they concluded, “whom we propose to retain to the last they are gravely implicated in the crimes of massacre.” (Source: BFO 371/6504, folders 136, 146. As well, BFO 371/6504/E10023)
 
But later the War Office implored Foreign Secretary Curzon to release the group in order to exchange them with the two British prisoners that the Kemalists took, Rawlinson and Campell.(Source: BFO 371/6504, E10411) By doing such Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) refused to honour the Exchange Agreement of March 16, 1921 that was excluding in the exchanges several Ittihadists that had a key role in the Armenian genocide. (Source: FO 371/6500/E3375 (folio 284/15)) In fact the new Foreign Minister Youssouf Kemal asked for the “all for all” exchange. (Source: FO 371/6509(folio 47)) But the British had still tried to impose the agreement and the promises given by Mustafa Kemal himself, more particularly regarding about 20 of the most criminals among them. First, Cevdet the governor of Van with another (they and some others were called “the most notorious members of the group”) escaped (source: FO 371/5091/E16080 (folio 85)); upon finding out about the escape the British Foreign Office responded that the two prisoners “have broken parole.” On September 6, 1921, 16 other Ittihadists excluded from the exchange as well were able to escape. Angry, the Foreign Office remarked, “how little Turkish sense of honor can be relied on.” (Source: FO 3071/6509/E10662 (folio 159))
 
The Turkish sociologist and publicist Yalman, who had secret discussions with many of the Ittihadists, has been himself detained at Malta and has stated that the anti-Armenian measures reflected a "policy of general extermination" to remove "the danger" to Turkey of "a dense Armenian population in the Eastern Provinces." (Source: A. E. Yalman, Turkey in the World War (New Haven, 1930), 220.
 
The British plan to send to justice more criminals was becoming more problematic by the end of September, 1919, when Sultan Damad Ferid's Cabinet was being dissolved slowly in the profit of the Kemalism. On November 17, 1919, the new High Commissioner Admiral de Robeck, told Curzon that
 
“…the present Turkish Government...[is] so dependent on the toleration of the organisers of the [Kemalist] National Movement that I feel it would be futile to ask for the arrest of any Turk accused of offences against Christians, even though he may be living openly in Constantinople...I do not consider it politically advisable to deport [to Malta] any more prisoners.”
 
(Source: BFO 371/4174/15672 1 (folios 523-24))
 
And later also noted:
 
“…the question of retribution for the deportations and massacres will be an element of venomous trouble in the life of each of the countries concerned.”
 
(Source: BFO 371/4174/136069 (folio 470))
 
During the 20’s, Lamb, the political-legal officer of the British High Commission at Istanbul, understanding the non-seriousness in the judging of the criminals detained in Malta, warned his superiors:
 
“Unless there is whole-hearted co-operation and will to act among the Allies, the trials will fall to the ground and the direct and indirect massacres of about one million Christians will get off unscathed.”
 
(Source: FO 371/6500/, W. 2178, appendix A( folio 385-118, 386-119), Aug. 11, 1920.)
 
One must not ignore that in addition to the fact that the prisoners were released because they were exchanged with British prisoners, as well the fact that it was advised to release them because the imperial government favored good relations with the Kemalists. Another major reason was responsible of the release of the prisoners, a reason that apologists have tried to keep under the carpet. On March 10, 1921, Ankara's Foreign Minister Bekir Sami assured the British that the prisoners being released would be judged in a court. Later officially on June 11, 1921, the Ankara government informed the British that when the Malta prisoners will be released in exchange of British prisoners:
 
“…those accused of crimes would be put on impartial trial at Ankara in the same way as German prisoners were being tried in Germany.”
 
(Source: FO 371/6499/E3110, p. 190; see also FO 371/5049/E6376, folio 187; A. Yalman, Turkey in My Time ( Norman, OK, 1956), 106.)
 
The British at the end had no reason to keep the prisoners anymore. By releasing them they scored many points. Firstly, the British prisoners would be released in exchange. Secondly they would not have to deal with what they viewed as “venomous trouble.” Thirdly, in the eyes of the Kemalists they would gain some respect which as a result would open the roads of economic exchanges. Lastly, why keep those prisoners and go through the trouble of judging them, when the Kemalists promised that those prisoners would be judged in Ankara?
 
It is true that many Ittihadist high ranked were judged by judicial proceedings in Izmir and Ankara. Among them were Halis Turgut who had escaped the prosecutions of the Turkish military tribunal previously, Ahmed Shükrü, Ismail Canbolat (the right hand of Talaat), Dr. Nazim, Yenibahçeli Nail, and Filibeli Hilmi (Dr. Shakir’s right hand). Some of the killed/condemned to death were brigands and military officials and soldiers used by the Ittihadists. One of those, Yahya Kaptan, was killed in July 1922 by unknown assassins. The rumour was that he had threatened Turkish officials with releasing state secrets if they were to carry investigations on him (he had a major role on the drowning into the sea of thousands of women and children). Topal Osman was killed by a military unit trying to capture him in March 1923. Halit (Deli) was killed in the Turkish parliament on February 9, 1925.
 
Even after those trials, the honesty of the Kemalist government could still be questioned, since many influential figures in the Young Turk government as well as pan-Turkists and Turanists were later introduced in the Kemalist administration. The Young Turk ex-minister of finances, Djavid Bey, was the nearest collaborator of Bekir Sami during the London Conferences. Yunus Nadi Bey, who was as well in the Turkish delegation in London was deputy of Smyrna; he was the leader of the “Yeni Gün” that was the principal Kemalist organ. Doctor Ziya Nur, considered by some the father of the neo-Turkism, was the private advisor of Youssouf Kemal (he himself found a place in the Kemalist administration), the then-minister of foreign affairs. Ahmed Nessimi Bey, the minister of foreign affairs under Talaat’s government, had leading roles in the administration. Sami Bey was placed at the head of the postal and telegraphic services at Ankara. Furthermore many pan-Turkists like Youssouf Aktchoura, Aghaoghlou Ahmed, Husseinzade Ali, Ziya Gökalp, Köprülüzade Fuat, Mehmet Emin, Hamdullah Suphi, Ali Haidar, Halide Edip, Celal Nuri, Falih Rifki, and Yacub Kadri, among others, were introduced in the Kemalist administration.
 
The two district governors that had a leading role in the genocide, Kemal and Nusret who were executed by the Kemalist government, were considered as “national martyrs” their families received large sums of money. Nusret got a region, a school, and a street in Urfa in his name; in Bogazliyan, Kemal was honoured with the erection of his statue in the public square. Ankara’s government also allocated pensions for the families of those executed by Armenian “avengers,” such as the families of Talaat and Dr. Behaeddin Shakir.
 
Now, back to Malta, Simsir in his work about Malta, with the aim of supporting his claim that the prisoners were released because there was no evidence, has referred to Curzon, but what Simsir ignores in his work is that Curzon later calls this decision a "great mistake," and he even admits that the rationale had been to support the release of the prisoners.
 
“The less we say about these people [the Turks detained at Malta] the better...I had to explain why we released the Turkish deportees from Malta skating over thin ice as quickly as I could. There would have been a row I think...The staunch belief among members [of Parliament is] that one British prisoner is worth a shipload of Turks, and so the exchange was excused.”
 
British Foreign Office Archives, FO 371/7882/E4425, folio 182
 
Curzon’s claims that they were released because there was no evidence, from his own admission, were just a reason among many to justify the decision (release of the prisoners), when in fact there was no justification whatsoever.
 
The claim that there was no evidence in US archives falls short when referring to the British ambassador in Washington, D.C., on June 1, 1921, when he declared,
 
“The U.S. archives contain a large number of documents on Armenian deportations and massacres.”
 
FO 371/6503/E6311, folio 34
 
There never was any prosecution, pre-trial investigation, or interrogatory. So how is anyone to claim that any tribunal “proved” them not guilty, when there was no Malta tribunal in the first place? The Turkish military tribunal on the other hand had charged many prisoners as guilty before sending them to Malta. This is why many were sent there. The Ottomans were supposed to send the documents supporting their guilt. No document was ever sent, however; the Kemalists dissolved the tribunal and the files were stolen.
 
Another interesting point is how Simsir uses in his article Undersecretary W.S. Edmond’s quotations, when the individual in question was one of those recognising that the documents giving accounts of the guilt of the prisoners were in Istanbul. He was troubled by the fact that Turks would react very badly if criminals were hung because of their participations in the massacres of Armenians. He himself declared even at an early stages:
 
“Not one Turk in a thousand will think that any other Turk deserves to be hanged for massacring Christians.”
 
(Source: FO 371/4173/61185, folio 1270/278. Minutes recorded on April 22, 1919)
 
The British judge Lindsey Smith August 10 1921 declared:
 
"…a considerable amount of incriminating evidence was collected by the Turkish government but it is idle to expect to get it. The only alternative is therefore to retain them as hostages only and release them against British prisoners."
 
(Source: FO 371/6509/E10023 (folios 100-01))
 
Now, it is important to ask the question, “Where were those documents?” since it is often claimed by denialists that the allies had the capital under control and that after searching they had found no evidence. It is even more important to know where the documents are, since the Turkish military tribunal brought to light that such documents in the form of “secret orders” did exist:
 
“The massacre and destruction (taktil ve ifna) of the Armenians was executed through secret orders by men who ostensibly had the assignment to implement the law of deportation. (zahiren tehcir kanununu tatbik etmek). “
 
Source: Published on August 6, 1919 in "Takvimi Vekâyi" No. 3616, p.1, Trabzon Verdict, 22 May 1919
 
This reference in the military tribunal refers to secret orders; references about those signed orders are abundant in the transcripts of the military tribunal published in the Ottoman Law gazette "Takvimi Vekâyi"
 
“The documents, personally signed by the defendants, confirm the fact that the gendarmes escorted the deportee convoys for purpose of massacre. There can be no doubt and hesitation about this. (maksadi ... taktili oldugundan süphe ve tereddüt birakmadigindan). “
 
Source: Published on August 7, 1919 in "Takvimi Vekâyi" No. 3617, p.2, Yozgat Verdict, 8 April 1919
 
On 10 February 1919, British High Commissioner, Admiral Calthorpe sent to London reports from the British intelligence agency, from where the Turkish Public security official Mr. Aziz in charge of Interior Ministry's wartime archives declares:
 
“Just before the Armistice, officials had been going to the archives department at night and making clean sweep of most of the documents.”
 
Source: British Foreign Office Archives. FO371/4172/31307, folio 385.
 
Tunaya relying on Ittihad's Secretary-General Midhat's testimony writes:
 
“The documents of Ittihad party were crammed into a suitcase by Dr. Behaeddin Sakir after they had been removed from the party headquarters by Dr. Nazim. The suicase was taken to home of attorney Ramiz, Sakir's brother-in-law.”
 
Source: Tunaya, T.Z. "Türkiyede siyasal partiler, Vol. 2, 2nd ed. Istanbul: Hürriyet Vakfi publications. p. 96, n.16.
 
The Turkish press reported in December 1918 ("Aksam," 12 Dec. 1918; "Tasviri Efkâr," 13 Dec. 1918) that when the police raided Ramiz’ homes, they found documents that were still intact and handed these documents to the Martial-court. Following the dissolution of the martial-court the documents left were never handed to the British like promised. Mr. Aziz, contrary to the promises he had made, never handed those documents to them.
 
It must be noted here that Djemal's bureau's Deputy Director stated that, before Djemal, flight from Istanbul:
 
“...some of his files [containing] official documents were left in the custody of Syfi, one of his men, who out of fear burned them. “
 
Source: Atay, F.R. "Çankaya." Istanbul: Sena. pp. 127-128
 
The then minister of education Midhat Shukru…
 
“…made most of the CUP documents relative to Armenians disapper.”
 
(Source: FO 371/6500 p.480)
 
The documents incriminating some of the prisoners in Malta that the British were able to locate in Istanbul were reported disappearing. And the Nationalist government was suspected of being the responsible.
 
“…disappearance of documents incriminating certain persons …saying that the matter has been arranged by local Nationalist leaders.”
 
(Source: Weekly Summary, March 4, 1920, British Embassy publication)
 
Other references to the destruction of those documents could be found in Aydemir’s work, where he writes:
 
“Before the flight of the top Ittihadist leaders, Talat Pasa stopped by at the waterfront residence of one of his friends on the shore of Arnavudköy, depositing there suitcase of documents. It is said that the documents were burned in the basement's furnace. Indeed ... the documents and other papers of Ittihad's Central Committee are nowhere to be found. “
 
Source: Aydemir, S.S. "Makedonyadan Ortaasyaya Enver Pasa." Vol. 3, 1914-1922. Istanbul: Remzi. p. 493
 
It is evident when referring to those pieces of references that the allies had no access to the documents contrary to what is claimed by denialists. A telegram ordering the destruction of telegrams, from the Turkish Interior Minister to the provincial governor at Ayintab, was intercepted by the General Headquarters of the British Army's Egyptian Expeditionary force on 24 January 1919.
 
“Burn originals of official telegrams since mobilisation on files of district. “
 
(Source: FO371/4174/15450)
 
On 17 June 1919 the Turkish foreign Minister Safa protested to the British High Commissioner regarding British intrusions by trying to examine documents, and finally answered that such an intrusion will be unsuccessful, because the Diyarbekir-based Director of Telegraphic Service sent a circular telegram ordering to destroy these documents. Admiral Calthrope reported to London after this message:
 
“…attention to the tenor of this note which treats as a mere matter of office routine such an important matter as the proposed destruction of documents relating to the period of deportations, massacres, and the activities of the Turkish authorities during the war. “
 
(source; FO371/4174/102551)
 
The British, facing the destruction of the documents, in a weekly summary of intelligence report, dated 4 March 1920, declared from the British Military Intelligence Bureau:
 
“…the disappearance of documents incriminating ... Ittihadist. Talking of Rauf: he urged the destruction of incriminating documents. It is understood that Rauf had already arranged the disappearance of documentary material implicating himself and Enver Pasa.” [source: FO371/5166/E1782, Reports 575, 592]
 
Karay, who in 1919 was the General Director of Telegraphic Service in Turkey, wrote that Mehmet Emin, his predecessor, had sent orders to all principal telegraph centres in the country, directing them to:
 
“…destroy all official papers, the originals and copies of all telegrams. “
 
(Karay, R.H. Minelbab lelmihrab, Istanbul: Inkilâp and Aka, p. 221)
 
Post minister Hüseyin Hasim admitted ordering the destruction of telegrams in 3 June 1919:
 
“…all military telegrams burned on orders from the War Office.” [source: "Takvimi Vekayi." No. 3573, 12 June 1919]
 
From these Turkish and British evidences, the present Turkish documents relating to the Armenian massacres are either forged or manipulated, because the Turkish authorities, in an attempt to deny the Armenian genocide, use documents that according to their own sources should have been destroyed. If in fact they were destroyed, then the documents the Turkish government presents are "reconstitutions" and more probably "forged," invalid in court of law.
 
Raphael Lemkin, Lawyer, and the inventor of the word “Genocide,” refers to the prisoners of Malta in one of his writings.
 
“In 1915 the Germans occupied the city of W. and the entire area. I used this time to read more history, to study and to watch whether national, religious, or racial groups are being destroyed. The truth came out only after the war. In Turkey, more than 1,200,000 Armenians were put to death for no other reason than they were Christians ... After the end of the war, some 150 Turkish war criminals were arrested and interned by the British Government on the island of Malta. The Armenians sent a delegation to the peace conference in Versailles. They were demanding justice. Then one day, the delegation read in the newspapers that all Turkish war criminals were released. I was shocked. A nation was killed and the guilty persons were set free. Why is a man punished when he kills another man? Why is the killing of a million a lesser crime than the killing of a single individual?
 
“I identified myself more and more with the sufferings of the victims, whose numbers grew, as I continued my study of history. I understood that the function of memory is not only to register past events, but to stimulate human conscience. Soon contemporary examples of genocide followed, such as the slaughter of the Armenians in 1915. It became clear to me that the diversity of nations, religious groups and races is essential to civilization because every one of those groups has a mission to fulfill and a contribution to make in terms of culture.... I decided to become a lawyer and work for the outlawing of Genocide and for its prevention through the cooperation of nations.
 
“A bold plan was formulated in my mind. This consisted [of] obtaining the ratification by Turkey [of the proposed UN Convention on Genocide Ed.] among the first twenty founding nations. This would be an atonement for [the] genocide of the Armenians. But how could this be achieved? . . . The Turks are proud of their republican form of government and of progressive concepts, which helped them in replacing the rule of the Ottoman Empire. The genocide convention must be put within the framework of social and international progress. I knew however that in this conversation both sides will have to avoid speaking about one thing, although it would be constantly in their minds: the Armenians.”
 
[Source: With permission of the Rare Books and Manuscripts Division, the New York Public Library, Astor, Lenox, and Tilden Foundations.]
 
After this basic attempt to analyse the Malta cases, one can find surprising the fact that any denialist could still claim that there was a Malta tribunal, or that prisoners were released because of lack of evidence or, even worse, that the allies had access to every document yet had found nothing. Because even after all the precaution the Turks took to hide the fact of the Armenian genocide, if one were to research this case honestly and without bias and compare it with, for instance, the Nuremberg tribunal, the researcher would quickly realise that even with all those forgeries from the part of the Turkish republic, after all those manipulations, and after all the destruction of files, one can still find that the evidence found in the official Ottoman Law gazette will without doubt show us that what the Ottoman Armenians have gone through was in fact an extermination, and those evidences by their quality show the intent more so than those used during the Nuremberg tribunal used to charge NAZI criminals.
 
One still wonders, and will keep wondering. Why going at these lengths to destroy those documents? Why did the Ottoman refuse to hand them to the British as promised? Why would the Kemalist government dissolve the tribunal? What were they hiding?
 
So let us ask this question again: Was there a Malta tribunal? No! There never was any Malta tribunal! Were the prisoners of Malta released because of lack of evidences? No! They were not, for Curzon’s admission shows us that this was not the case. Had the Allies access to every document they wanted when they were “occupying” the capital? No! Not only that was not the case, but even when using Ottoman Turkish documents, we have to conclude that even such documents show us that the Allies were unable to have access to such documents.
 
 
This peripheral analysis of historical records points us to a fact, the fact being that there never was any Malta tribunal and not only this but that the prisoners kept in Malta were not released because of lack of “proof.” This short essay shows us that the prisoners were released to be exchanged with British prisoners, as well as to not obfuscate the new nationalist power in place. And, finally, the British released those prisoners after having the guarantee that they would be put on trial in Ankara. Furthermore, not all prisoners were released. The British refused to release about 20 among them; as a result they succeeded in escaping by the help of the Kemalist. The use of the Malta case by apologists of the Armenian genocide is one more example of the apologist’s paradox. On the one hand the denialists reject the Turkish military tribunal, because they claim that it was a kangaroo tribunal set by the Allies; on the other hand they use the release of Turkish prisoners by the Allies as evidence that there was no genocide. If Malta prisoners were to be charged, the denialists will claim that the court charging them was set by the Allies, therefore not credible, whereas on the other hand, if the court in question were to release them, the same denialists will use this release as a “proof” that there was no genocide. In this case, there never was any Malta tribunal in the first place, so the denialist’s selective portrayal makes us believe there was one. The entire denialist methodology uses the apologist paradox. The heart of this paradox works like this:
 
Case A, Evidence A forgery
Case B, Evidence A not forgery
 
Let us examine case A. If evidence A is forgery, it is not an evidence. No further examination is necessary.
 
Let us now examine case B. If Evidence A is not forgery, it does not support the theses of genocide, so it isn’t an evidence to support the genocide. Therefore there is no evidence at all.
 
Those few lines are at the heart of the denialist methodology whereby they will first try to reject an evidence by trying to show it as forgery. If they are able, they will therefore conclude that this evidence is not an evidence. If on the other hand they are not able to show the evidence as forgery, they will try to give another meaning to the evidence, do everything to twist it, and finally conclude that even if it is not forgery, it does not support anything, therefore it is not an evidence. From this paradox, there can not be any evidence supporting the genocide, because the two theses lead to the same conclusion. No genocide. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 15:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::To sum up, Fadix I'd understand if you denied all these references, because they conflict with your claims. I'm also skeptical about all the references but there's a fact that after a 30 month investigation, Malta case dropped because there was nothing that can be considered evidence in a court of law. '''The fact that nothing was found in American archives discredits Ara Sarafian's referenced work and authors that refer to them. The government who published Blue Book admitted that it was no evidence.''' Aram Andonian's work claims to show telegrams by Talat Pasha ordering a genocide. But court finds no evidence against Talat Pasha. In what position does this put all your peer-reviewed publications that refer to these sources as solid proof of what happened?
 
:::::::As I have documented above, there was no such thing as a Malta tribunal, this is a total fabrication, and the only Turkish author you really researched the matter also confirms there was no such a thing. Denying you say? This article is meant to be an encyclopedic article, which should be documented based on published works and not some fabrications found in sites such as tallarmeniantale. Sorry. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 15:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::::: Fadix you claim to document everything very well. In our hands all references have little meaning to you while your side is always very well documented!!. You can claim that Malta Tribunal never existed but also sources that support your idea tell that "After the end of the war, some '''150 Turkish war criminals were arrested and interned by the British Government on the island of Malta" and released including one of the sources you quoted. (Rare Books and Manuscripts Division, New York Public Library, Astor, Lenox and Tilden Foundations.)''' without referring to something called Malta Tribunal. So let's called it something else not Malta Tribunal if it's going to make you happy. Also '''check "Special Collections of the John Vigen Der Manuelian Research Library, Genocide Oral History and Photo Archives, and Digital Collections of the Center for Armenian Research and Publication at The University of Michigan-Dearborn"''' They claim to have
::::::::'''"British Foreign Office Dossiers on Turkish War Criminals, a collection of British documents published by Vartkes Yeghiayan on various perpetrators and agents of the Armenian Genocide who were rounded up by the British and interned on the island of Malta pending trial. Finally, we also have the actual microfilm copies of the British records on the Malta internments. "''' Still claiming it never existed? I'm sure you documented it very well. Let's say I don't prefer your approach. I'd assume that you know that Dennis R. Papazian is the Director of the Armenian Research Center: University of Michigan-Dearborn. He's an Armenian Scholar. So it is not something you can try to coverup by saying 'It is some Turkish author's claim'.
:::::::::Do you have some comprehention problems? Did you actually read what I wrote above?(not the one following your answer, but the long text above) If you haven't you should. No one denies there was Malta prisoners, you claimed there was a Tribunal, which isen't true, you claimed people were released because there was no evidence of perpetrated massacres, and I have provided various British sources above as well as Turkish which contradict this claims. Read what others have written before pressing on edit. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 19:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC) '''Fadix British occupied Istanbul and arrested 144 high ranked officers. You're claiming that they couldn't walk into a room (archives) and read documents.'''
 
::::::::::Certainly not. First of all you're not pointing to any resources for several paragraphs above. But for the moment I'll assume they're right and move on. '''You claim that these people were released because Turkish government promised a trial, or for exchange. Many of the released people visited other countries. If your claim had been true they would have been arrested and put to trial for war crimes in a foreign country. I think one example suffices for this, Talat Pasha was not assasinated on Turkish soil.'''Also just think about how law system works before doing copy-paste jobs from several weblogs to document your claims without any basis.
::::::::::'''1. Accusations lead to arrests, and detention if necessary for the sake on investigation. Of course accusation is not enough to find defendant guilty, thus'''
::::::::::'''2. Prosecution puts together documents to prove defendant guilty in a court of law. '''
::::::::::'''3. Sometimes there's not enough proof for a trial which leads to the end of a trial before it starts. '''
 
::::::::::Try to fit your story into these facts.
::::::::::'''1. People were accused and they were taken into custody in Malta.'''
::::::::::'''2. Something happened for 30 months, British goverment prepared documents against people in custody'''
::::::::::'''3. They were released.'''
::::::::::Even if I buy your claim for part 3 your statement '''"There never was any prosecution, pre-trial investigation, or interrogatory" is not justifiable. What happened in almost 3 years? Why did British put together those documents''' that are also available in University of Michigan? For the fun of it? '''If there was no pre-trial investigation why were these guys in detention. You referred to documents saying "it is evident that...", "it is obvious that..." and referring to other Telegrams.''' So lovely.. '''Talat Pasha was in Malta for almost 3 years. What was wrong with Andonian's telegrams? If they had been authentic why would nobody use it as evidence against Talat Pasha and prosecute him before Turkish government started bargaining about prisoner exchange?? What could have made a better case against him then orders given by himself? There was never a case because there was no serious evidence.''' Otherwise there would be a trial in Malta or those people would be arrested in a foreign country and prosecuted for war criminal charges against them. I refrained from giving references in this document on purpose because especially on a website it is not possible to verify the authenticity of referenced documents.
 
:::::::::: Talat Pasha was never held in Malta by the British - he fled directly to Germany two or three days after the Mudros Armistice. He was never held by the British. Neither did the British ever make any attempt to prosecute those that were held in Malta. There had been a great deal of debate on what to do about the Turks responsible for the Armenian Genocide. While there was consensus that they must be tried for their crimes there was no historical precident to do so. The Ottomans made it clear that they wished to prosecute the Turkish perpetrators under Ottoman Law and Ottoman Parlimentary inquiries were begun which eventually led to the Ottoman Military Tribunals. By this time the Allies were divided amongst themselves on a great number of issues and cold come up with nothing better then allowing the Turks to prosecute their own (and with Talat, Enver and Jemal already fled to Germany the idea of an international trial (also never having been done before) had lost some of its luster). The Brits became apauled at the high rate of escapism from the Ottoman jails where security was quite lax and where those guarding the prisoners were sympathetic to them. All kinds of laxity and abuses prevailed. In a surprise move the British siezed the prisoners and transfered them to Malta - primarily just to prevent them all from escaping. There was never any actual attempt made on the part of the British or any ally to try and prosecute these people. --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 15:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::: This is turning into word games. The source I mentioned above is an Armenian source even it calls it a pending trial. These guys were interned for 30 months and British collected evidence against them during this period. Even your references name them British Foreign Office Dossiers on Turkish War Criminals prepared during Malta internments. This kind of internments are to prevent people from escaping so they can be taken to trial. You said yourself it was to prevent them all from escaping. Because people think they would escape from prosecution. If no trial was being planned what did the British government think these guys would escape from? What was the goal to keep them under custody? To take them to a court of law. To collect evidence and prosecute them and making sure that they don't escape during this period. If not what? To give them food and shelter for 30 months??? And 30 months is a lot of time to put together a case. If you still can't, you turn it into a political issue in the future. Compare it with any trial or anything that couldn't lead to trial due to lack of evidence even in today's law. You write to a book and name it Malta .... Refrain from using the word court, trial, tribunal etc. but give the meaning that there was an accusation, plaintiff (armenian and british side bringing charges), defendant(144 ottoman officials), internment and release. And last, this is even in wikipedia, Talaat Pasha, assassinated by Soghomon Tehlirian on March 15, 1921. He was released with a 'not guilty' verdict by the German Court in June 1921 .
 
::::::::::Fadix when it comes to discrediting references, I'm amazed by your talent. '''I'm telling you that Turkish archives are accessible, and it doesn't take half an hour for you to claim that some document was not available. Website and documents are either Turkish translations or in Arabic letters and archive holds millions of documents. Text search is basic and not good to pinpoint what you're looking for. Also not all the documents are available online. So be reasonable... At least wait a week or so before you claim something is not among the documents to be more plausible.'''
 
:::::::::::Dont bother, Fadix and his sidekick THOTH are highly biased on this issue, trying to convince them of facts that dont suit their agenda is like talking to a wall. Unlike yourself, they dont approach this subject in good faith and so my advice is to not bother wasting your time! [[User:85.1.201.43|85.1.201.43]] 05:29, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:Here's some proceedings that are easily accessible from many sources including Armenian sources. Soghomon Tehlirian trial
 
:DISTRICT ATTORNEY — The defendant testified that the massacres took place just outside the city limits of Erzinga. I am informed that, after the caravan had gone quite a distance from Erzinga, armed Kurdish bandits attacked the caravan in a pass and even many Turkish gendarmes were killed trying to protect the caravan. Would the defendant please answer whether or not they were attacked by Kurdish bandits?
 
:DEFENDANT — I was told that it was the Turkish gendarmes who opened fire on us.
 
:ASST. D.A. — You were "told"??
 
:earlier in the trial --------
 
:DEFENDANT — As soon as the order was issued, on the outskirts of the city, they divided the people into groups and marched them off in caravans.
 
:PRESIDING JUSTICE — Who accompanied the caravans?
 
:DEFENDANT — Gendarmes, cavalry, and other soldiers.
 
:PRESIDING JUSTICE — How did your parents, brothers and sisters die?
 
:DEFENDANT — As soon as the group had gone a little distance from the city, it was stopped. The gendarmes began to rob us. They wanted to take our money and anything else of value that we had.
 
:PRESIDING JUSTICE — Therefore, even the soldiers were robbing the deportees?
 
:DEFENDANT — Yes.
 
:DEFENDANT — While we were being plundered, they started firing on us from the front of the caravan.
 
:--- So earlier in the trial defendant is quite sure that it was accompanying Turkish soldiers who killed his family and gives all the details but the very same day, during cross examination he confesses that "he was '''told''' that they were Turks". When he stumbles over the question and contradicts with himself defense attorney comes with the help and speaks on defendant's behalf,
 
:NIEMEYER (DEFENSE ATTORNEY) — I believe we can resolve the question of the Kurds this way. The principal modus operandi of the Turkish massacres was to arm the mountainous Kurds, the arch-enemies of the Armenians, as gendarmes to watch over the Armenians.
 
::I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Clarify [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:30, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 
::: Clarification with another example, defendant testifies, me and my friend were walking on the street. 1 guy approached us and beat my friend, hit him in the head with a baseball bat. Defense Attorney asks - What did the guy look like? Defendant - He was a tall guy with blue eyes and black hair, well built and he had a mustache, he was about 6'. 10 minutes later District Attorney starts cross examination by asking "Was this a man who did these to your friend". Defendant says - I was told that he was a man. District Attorney rests.
 
:::: You are twisting things up. don't make me quote the sentences in which Tehilirian refers to how he considered Talaat as being responsable of the massacres. Shall I? [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 15:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 
::::: Fadix please quote. What I quoted is actually there and there's a conflict. Because he tells every detail about soldiers and things that he claims to have seen at close proximity. Then he says "he was told".
 
::::::FIRST OF, the Tehlirian trial isen't mentioned in the article as evidence, so you bringing it up here has nothing to do with the article. Second, your analogy doesn't make sense as I have stated. Here is how Tehlirian knew about Talaat involvement as he says during the first day of the trial:
 
::::::PRESIDING JUSTICE — Who was considered responsible for these barbaric acts?
 
::::::DEFENDANT — I found out who the authors of these acts were from the newspapers, while I was in Constantinople.
 
::::::Tehlirian is mixing informations which is something quite common when interrogating a victim. The newspapers in question are those covering the Military court in Constantinople while he was there during its precedings.
 
::::::Here, he r4econfirm what he said:
 
::::::PRESIDING JUSTICE — Then did you come to the conclusion that Talaat Pasha was the author of the massacres?
 
::::::DEFENDANT — When I was in Constantinople, I became convinced that he was the person responsible from reading the newspapers.
 
::::::He reconfirm again:
 
::::::DEFENSE ATTORNEY VON GORDON: — I would also like to ask the defendant whether or not he had read in the newspapers that Talaat Pasha had been condemned to death for these massacres by the Court Martial in Constantinople?
 
::::::DEFENDANT — Yes, I had read that. I was also in Constantinople when Kemal, one of the authors of the massacres, was hanged. On that occasion, it was written in the papers that Talaat and Enver were also condemned to death.
 
::::::The, 'I was told' is not some rumors, it wasn't clear for him who exactly killed his entire family when it happened, it is obvious, from his testimony, he say he list consciousness after being hit. This 'I was told' in no way has any relevency here, since Tehlirian isen't even used as evidences in this article, neither the 'I was told' discredit his own testimony. The guy in his two month stays in Constantinople as he says, read the newspapers, and those newspapers covered cases in which the gendarms under the pretext of protection escorted the convoys to commit robery and killings. This 'I was told' could have very well been what he read in thos newspapers, what the hell does it change to the fact that he was the only survivor of his family and one of the few of his hometown? Again, I don't see the relevency of your point. If you are trying to imply something which you think is relevent to the article, don't implky say it directly. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 19:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::::Fadix documents say that Defense Attorney used '''insanity defense'''. Thus proceedings are not good sources for anything. I found the insanity defense issue recently which undermines both of our claims. I didn't mention this in any way related to the article. Because I'm sure you've heard about assasination of the Mayor of Van (Bedros Capamajian) by Karakin of Tashnak committees and the path that leads to it. I can cite sources which you would not believe, so I'm not even going to bother. These documents claim that '''Armenians were also harmed by Armenian bandits to frame Turks and cause aggression to start a revolt'''. "I was told" part might have been related to something like this.
 
::::::::I will stop there. You still weren't able to convince me that this 'debate' had anything to do with the article. Secondly, you are mixing 1915 with the Hamidian era, thirdly, what claim did I make which was undermined here? Forthly, are you actually claiming that Armenian 'revolutionaries' were the ones having destroyed his hometown? If so, don't even bother answering because you will be ignored. Fiftly, I have above documented the Malta cases by using records from Turkish and British sources, yet you have claimed I did not document, don't waste my time and don't pull my legs. And finally, that you believe that Talaat was detained in Malta is an indication that you have no clue of what you are talking about, read the issue, concentrate on what there is in this article which you think should not be there, or what you think should be added then come back. Good day. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 02:51, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::::::My point was '''there's something fishy about this''' your claim was '''no, there isn't he hears about even Talaat Pasha being executed on a newspaper, so he can be misinformed'''. My response is '''He can be misinformed about Talaat Pasha but how can he be "told" what he claims to have seen with his own eyes''' later I concluded that there's no need to debate this because looking for a clue in this is (no matter what the claim is) pointless if there's an insanity defense.
 
::::::::::His testimony was clear, he never says about who exactlly killed those people, but that they were actually killed, he was hit without knowing who hit him and lost consciousness and his body was found with the body of deaths, he later regained consciousness. Those are clear in the testimony. The insanity defense was build around the thesis that he became insane after what happened to him and all the blooed he saw and his entire family with the very large majority of his town being killed. I really don't see what is your point, and I don't see what is fishy there. His testimony doesn't have much contradications given that the guy lost his entire family and ended up on the floor left to be death with the bodies of people. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::::::Fadix also don't twist what I meant. I said when I document things you say 'there's no such thing' in that case I can use the same argument against you to be fair. In the end you copy-paste paragraphs from various websites and they refer to some British documents which neither one of us saw and you accuse me of doing the same thing using some other websites which conflict with the ones you use. So we both say that we documented things but they don't make any of the claims proven. Also '''there's no need to go back to 1894-1897 period. This whole issue is initiated by Armenian Revolutionaries in a hope to establish an Armenian state in eastern Turkey.'''
 
::::::::::What have I copypasted, the thing I copypasted was something I myself wrote, the reference provided in that material, I took them from published materials. Your last point, I won't answer. You aren't saying anything having relevency with the article. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 
Their bandits and support for Russian army led to deportations. You need to be put your bias aside and be fair. Read about the other side of the story a little bit from the sources of the other side.
 
:What is the relevency of your beliefs here? The article contains a large section regarding the Turkish government position. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 
Make your own judgement. There are a lot of people who didn't suffer from this, I personally had 3 Armenian classmates in college in Istanbul.
 
:I made my judgement, you can hardly find any Diasporan Armenian that hasn't lost a close relative, so ' a lot' is your interpretation and has no relevency here. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 
When people revolt, it is hard to identify who does that. Measures are taken against everyone. Imagine a curfew. It is for the entire population in the area, not revolutionaries only. Deportations were necessary. Consequences were sad.
 
:Who cares what you believe, and what is the relevency of your belief with the article?
 
Wikipedia needs some of the pages changed especially the ones that try to claim that '''Russian-Armenian alliance''' never existed.
 
:Try to claim? I repeat, there is a large section exposing the Turkish government position. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 
Quoting "Unlike the Armenians, the Jewish population of Germany and Europe did not agitate for separation. Armenian scholars reply that Holocaust deniers make similar false claims, namely the Jews agitated to destroy Germany by allying with the Soviet Union to bring Bolshevism into Germany." Turkish claim is not a claim, it is a proven fact. Even Armenian sources don't deny."'''The Armenians under the Russian control devised a national congress at October of 1917.
 
:That's what various scholars reply(who changed it to 'Armenian'?). A Claim is a position, a position is a position, claiming it more is simply unencyclopedic. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 
The convention in Tiflis was concluded in September of 1917 with delagates from former Romanov realm (203), which 103 belonged to the Armenian Revolutionary Federation-Dashnaktsutyun.'''"
 
:In 1917, most of Anatolian Armenian population has been killed and the rest being chassed away. What is the relevency here regarding what Russian Armenians who fought for their Tsar has anything to do here? [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 
read the rest on The First Armenian Republic Page. Here's another pointless sentence "Ottoman Empire troops under the 4th Army, which Mustafa Kemal had commanded the same army between 1916—1917, crossed the border in May 1918 and attacked Alexandropol" What does this mean? Yes, he was the commander of that army 1 year before. Why mention? What's the relevance? In another article by Armenian sources '''it is claimed that Mustafa Kemal was the commander while in reality Kazim Karabekir was the commander'''. Lots of things in Wikipedia about Armenian issues not just genocide are '''pure bias/distortion''' with intent to blame people who were even unrelated to what happened and they belong in POV forks at best.
 
:No relevency. Discuss about the article please. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 18:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 
==Pardon the interruption, LINK of this article to Turkey Article==
Hello, I am sure this has been disussed ad nausem but here it is again. I wanted to insert ANY link into the [[Turkey]] article regarding the Armenian Genocide. I put it into the section "See Also" but its become an edit war, I know, big surprise. Is there a link to the ongoing contraversy regarding Armenian Genocide recognition (if not, can one be created)and would it be appropriate in the article on Turkey? Please don't rip me with that belongs on that talk page because I do think its a relevant discussion in here. Cheers![[User:Threeafterthree|Tom]] 14:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:I don't think the articles are linked - but they certainly should be. I have no doubt that Turks and Turkish sympathysers in the Turkey article don't want this piece of Turkish history to be noted...hopefully more rational folks can get involved...thanks for letting us know...--[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 02:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== Mesrob II's statements in Erciyes University ==
 
Mesrob II was the honour guest in the conference in Erciyes University. His statements about the massacras may show us the right way in this discussion. As the religious leader of Armenians in Turkey he stated that both Armenians and Turks (in addition to foreign countries)were responsible in the events. I will provide the English text of his speech soon.--[[User:Hattusili|Hattusili]] 17:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:Yeh! the same sort of religious figure as those fanatic Rabbis who also blame the Jews for their unfidelity to Yaveh and which according to them was punished through the Holocaust, or the Armenian Priest who claims that Armenians could have sperred themselves the fate of the genocide had they been more fidel to the Church. I spare you the rest of the story, or how much the Armenians have waited before obtaining the financing to build the church destroyed by the Earthquake in Turkey and how much @ kissing it took. But if indeed a religious figure's word are relevent to a historic article, I should find a Turkish card reader who recognize the genocide too. :) [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 17:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Mesrob II is nothing but a political lackey of the turkish government. He has no credibility. 30-40,000 quasi-Armenians do not need a Patriarchate anyhow, it should be abolished...Here's a good article written by the most uber liberal Armenian party: http://lalettre.hayway.org/protected/en/communique00010111.html
--[[User:Eupator|Eupator]] 15:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 
: Do you guys really do this distinction between armenians in diaspora and armenians in Turkey? why is that? --[[User:Gokhan|Gokhan]] 17:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 
As you see I did not mention anything about his religious position because it means nothing to me but he is an important figure for Armenians living in Türkiye. In addition he said nothing about infedility. I do not understand why you are so biased even against Armenians.--[[User:Hattusili|Hattusili]] 17:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 
: These people are more Turkish than Armenian. I mean they are as much Armenian as your average Turk in Western Anatolia is Greek...--[[User:Eupator|Eupator]] 17:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 
::''"However, since Ataturk's Europeanization drive, the traditional Turkish scimitar has been replaced by more sophisticated methods with the very same ultimate goal - to drive the original inhabitants of the land into oblivion."'' And this is Armenians most liberal party? --[[User:A.Garnet|A.Garnet]] 18:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 
''[[Turkification]]'' - [[User talk:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 10:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::I dont see what purpose that links serves. Is it meant to prove Turks drive "original inhabitants of the land into oblivion"? --[[User:A.Garnet|A.Garnet]] 18:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 
==Genocide denial==
I just reverted a very rude genocide denial attempt, the umpteenth of the denial attempts, that rewrote the intro and deleted all the photographs. Lately I have been busy with the minimization of another genocide, but I will get back to this very important history article in the future. [[User:Gidonb|gidonb]] 18:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 
Welcome - I am looking foreward to your contributions here...--[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 02:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== Orhan Pamuk ==
 
Charges against Orhan Pamuk were not brought by the government, they were brought by the Turkish Attorney General which is independent of government. I tried to revise it, but my changes were later removed.
 
:Things may work differently in Turkey, but I know in the US the Attorney General is appointed by the President and prosecutes and functions as part of the executive branch. [[User:Fightindaman|Fightindaman]]
 
In Turkey judicial system is independent of goverment as in most European Countries (Turkey's judicial system has been based on the Swiss Civil Code). Charges brought against Orhan Pamuk is not in the control of government, it's solely the decision of independent prosecutors. As it stands, what's written in the article with regard to Orhan Pamuk is factually wrong.
 
== TAT link ==
 
Why do you keep removing TAT link? Why are you afraid of it so much?
 
:Because the guy has been exposed as a falsifier and a liar. Why do you persist on keeping such a link?--[[User:MarshallBagramyan|MarshallBagramyan]] 01:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 
Hello there, I read the article and I believe that it is very biased against the Turks. I am not an expert on the subject but I know enough about the subject to know that the two strongest supporters of the so called genocide (British "Blue Book" and Ambassador Morgenthau's memoirs) have been rebuffed. I seriously think that this should be taken into consideration before producing an anti-Turkish article. --[[User:85.103.194.83|85.103.194.83]] 14:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:Interesting. It might be worth noting that you are in Turkey, and likely a Turk. - [[User talk:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 16:48, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
::Francis, I dom't think in this cases it makes any differences. It makes a differences if he is this anonymous user that keep coming back and disturb the place. BTW, is it really necessary to have all the US states that recognize it by their names? Just why not to say, 39 of them? [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 17:09, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
::You got to be a bit more specific. Morgenthau's memoirs and the Blue Book testimonials have been challenged and attempted to be debunked. The former is claimed to be written by ghostwriters and the latter on the premise that since Lord Bryce's account of German atrocities against Belgians was error-ridden, then so would the Blue Book. But from what I've heard, those claims have been have been rebuffed by other scholars. I really don't see anything anti-Turkish in the article, bias maybe, but claims that this article is a rant against Turks are not well grounded and often made only by the Turks themselves. Are you Turkish?[[User:MarshallBagramyan|MarshallBagramyan]] 16:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC)