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'''If you would like to have a text translated, you might want to post on [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Translation_requests this Wiktionary page].'''
= MayAugust 1612 =
== WhoGauss tendszum yaks?Gedächtnis ==
I'm editing a wikipedia article about someone described as once being a "yak shepherd". I wasn't aware that yaks were sheep. Is there a more appropriate term? "Yakherd" isn't in the dictionary.... [[User:TheMadBaron|TheMadBaron]] 09:26, 16th of May 2006 (UTC)
:Perhaps simply "yak herder"? "Yakboy" has a certain charm too, though... [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 09:34, 16th of May 2006 (UTC)
This is the title of a book written by Gauss's contemporary [[Wolfgang Sartorius von Waltershausen]]. How would you translate the title? Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:1288:7780:BADE:EA31|2601:644:8581:75B0:1288:7780:BADE:EA31]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:1288:7780:BADE:EA31|talk]]) 05:53, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
::I'd go with yak herder too. "Yakherd" gets google hits, but at least one of those is referring to a herd of yaks rather than a herder of yaks. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 10:02, 16th of May 2006 (UTC)
{{resolved}} Ah never mind, there is an English translation of the whole book, titled "Gauss, a memorial" which works for me. I'll add a link to Waltershausen's biography. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:1288:7780:BADE:EA31|2601:644:8581:75B0:1288:7780:BADE:EA31]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:1288:7780:BADE:EA31|talk]]) 06:37, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
:More literally; "Gauss in Remembrance". [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ged%C3%A4chtnis] [[User:Wakuran|惑乱 Wakuran]] ([[User talk:Wakuran|talk]]) 11:44, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks, that sounds good too. I got "Gauss in memory" as a machine translation but wanted to check with humans. [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:90F2:5EEC:2BFD:58B4|2601:644:8581:75B0:90F2:5EEC:2BFD:58B4]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:90F2:5EEC:2BFD:58B4|talk]]) 16:12, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
:::If I encountered this phrase in a text I was translating from German, I'd put "in memory of Gauss", especially if it was the dedication at the beginning of a book rather than the title of the book. You often see books dedicated "Meinem Vater zum Gedächtnis", "Meiner Mutter zum Gedächtnis" and so on. —[[User:Mahagaja|Mahāgaja]] · [[User talk:Mahagaja|''talk'']] 13:15, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
::::I think that the name ''Gauss'' in the German title is in the dative case, which does not exist in English, making a perfectly literal translation impossible. (''<u>To</u> Gauss in remembrance'' sounds somewhat pathetic.) But merely adding a colon, ''Gauss: in remembrance'', makes the almost literal translation (IMO) quite acceptable. Compare the book title ''Robert Bingham Downs, 1903–1991: in remembrance''.<sup>[https://primo-tc-na01.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay?vid=TWU-A&docid=ALMA-TXWU2183368690001201&lang=en_US]</sup> ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 10:13, 18 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 13 =
: "yak farmer" seems to exist as well. "Yakowboy" would work, at least if they were hearding "Yakows", (see [[Dzo]]). --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 18:04, 16th of May 2006 (UTC)
== French from France ==
:Don't search for "yakheard" in the dictionary. It would be "herd of yaks". [[User:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="white" style="background:blue"> freshgavin</font>]][[User_talk:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="pink">ΓΛĿЌ </font>]] 06:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we'd use the term "Castillian Spanish" to distinguish the dialect spoken in Spain from the one in Latin America. Simiilarly, Neuhochdeutch is "Standard" German as distinct from Bayern or Austrian German etc. Is there a similar term for French from France, as contrasted with Quebecois French? Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:90F2:5EEC:2BFD:58B4|2601:644:8581:75B0:90F2:5EEC:2BFD:58B4]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:90F2:5EEC:2BFD:58B4|talk]]) 03:01, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
[[Yakov Smirnoff]] ? :-) [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 15:40, 17th of May 2006 (UTC)
:What's wrong with "French French"? --[[Special:Contributions/142.112.140.137|142.112.140.137]] ([[User talk:142.112.140.137|talk]]) 07:30, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
::The variety of French that is considered the "[[Standard French|proper standard]]", the [[prestige dialect]], is known as [[Parisian French]]. Also called "French of France", this term is problematic since [[Meridional French]], spoken in the South of France, has marked differences with the prestige dialect. However, the term "Parisian French" is also problematic, since the variety of French one hears spoken in the streets of Paris, by native Parisians, is also different from the "proper" Parisian French heard spoken on TV by high-ranking politicians. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 10:31, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
:::The prestige varieties of a language have often been based on the speech of the upper classes in the capital, I believe, so as that group were already in power, and needed to adapt the least. I believe [[Received Pronunciation]] has a similar history. (Standard German and Swedish, on the other hand, might have been based on some bureaucratic levelling based on traits that were perceived to be generally understood.) [[User:Wakuran|惑乱 Wakuran]] ([[User talk:Wakuran|talk]]) 10:55, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
:For the title of our own article we've gone with [[French of France]], and on French Wikipedia it's [[w:fr:Français de France|Français de France]]. --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 08:01, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
::"Français métropolitain" is also commonly used, as mentioned in the article. [[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]] ([[User talk:Xuxl|talk]]) 16:00, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
:I am surprised that no one has already mentioned ''francien'', the language of Ile-de-France (olim ''Francie''). Is that term dated? [[User:Tamfang|—Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 23:00, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
== Is this a real language? ==
ooooooooooooooh Stu, that one was a groaner. NOW you're pushing it! [[User:Loomis51|Loomis51]] 00:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
At 06m26s of [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2u88AbC9Q4 this 1980s video recording], there is a tobacco advertisement which purports to be a discussion between some Native Americans.
:I was going to suggest ''yakker'' myself. I think yakherd is pretty obvious, as far as ordinary English constructions go (shepherd, cowherd, swineherd and so on)[[User:Skookum1|Skookum1]] 00:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Is this in a real language, and if so, which? [[User:Marnanel|Marnanel]] ([[User talk:Marnanel|talk]]) 11:46, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
== a phrase ==
:I can't tell you which one, but it sounds complicated enough to be real. In other words, it doesn't feel phony enough to be pseudo-Native American gibberish. I'd be interested to know not only what language it is, but also if he's actually saying what the subtitles say he's saying. —[[User:Mahagaja|Mahāgaja]] · [[User talk:Mahagaja|''talk'']] 13:08, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
please what is "all your writting needs" in latin. thank you so much.--[[User:196.201.156.90|196.201.156.90]] 15:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)Anel--[[User:196.201.156.90|196.201.156.90]] 15:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
::Yeah, it sounds similar to other snippets of Native American languages I have come across. Neither that ad or the following with the Arabic sheik could have been made today, probably. Then, Native Americans are said to possess a higher level of self-irony than what's generally perceived, anyway. [[User:Wakuran|惑乱 Wakuran]] ([[User talk:Wakuran|talk]]) 18:38, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
:That's a rather ambiguous and elliptical piece of English-language-specific advertising sloganese which isn't a sentence. A translation which makes sense in Latin won't be a literal translation. [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 16:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
== Questions ==
==Symbols for spacial relationships==
# Are there any lexical words in English with structure similar to e.g. ''as'', ''has'', ''is'', ''us'' and ''was'', i.e. one syllable and /z/ (spelled {{angbr|s}}) at the end?
Are there any basic spacial symbols that mean "in between" or "touching, on" or "motion towards" (or others) used in any typographical convention, preferably ones you can find in ASCII or on a basic American keyboard? I'm developing my own personal notation system for sign languages. For example, right now, I'm using:
#:* "us" isn't like the others. It's pronounced like "uss". -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 22:59, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
#::Does, goes. I'm sure there are more [[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]] ([[User talk:Xuxl|talk]]) 00:35, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
#:::''Loads.'' [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;"> Card Zero </span>]] [[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 13:03, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
#::If we can believe [[wikt:us#Pronunciation|Wiktionary]], ''us'' is pronounced like /ʌz/ (or /əz/ in unstressed positions) in some UK dialects. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 10:50, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
#:::: A late friend of mine always said it like that. But she lived her whole life in Australia, as did her parents. It's so odd that it remains almost one of her defining features. -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 18:36, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
# Does English have equivalent of Finnish ''varsi'' like in phrases "tien varsi", "joen varsi" and "radan varsi"?
# Does English have equivalent of Finnish ''puolella'' like in phrases "Suomen puolella", "vuoden 2025 puolella", "elokuun puolella", "torstain puolella" and "kesän puolella"?
# Do English speakers ever use full stops to separate dates? Are there any other countries who write dates as (d)d.(m)m.yyyy, where dates are not zero-padded, like 13.8.2025 or 9.8.2025?
# Does English have more adjectives that are compared with separate words rather than endings than other Germanic languages?
# Does English ever use hyphen to separate parts of a closed compound word? --[[User:40bus|40bus]] ([[User talk:40bus|talk]]) 21:37, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
#:1) "lens", "[[yaws]]", "[[mews]]", "[[Roman calendar#Days|ides and nones]]" unless you insist on vowel+s <span class="nowrap">[[User:Verbarson|-- Verbarson ]] <sup>[[User talk:Verbarson|talk]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Verbarson|edits]]</sub></span> 18:43, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
:1.) I don't think so. A quick check of the [Wiktionary rhyme lists https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rhymes:English/%C3%A6z] shows lexical words spelled with -zz or -se but not plain -s.
:2.) "Side" maybe. The first two phrases are rendered "road side" and "river side" by Google translate. However, a look at [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/varsi#Finnish] shows that the Finnish meanings do not form a coherent group from an English language point of view. Some are arms, some are shafts, some are rods.
:3.)Not really. "Suomen puolella" seems to mean "on the Finnish side" of a battle or dispute, right? But in the other phrases I don't think English would use any word corresponding to "puolella" just a prepositional phrase, "about 2025", "in August", "on Thursday", "in summer".
:4.)No English speakers never use full stops to separate dates. I've only seen that style used by people whose primary language was not English.
:6.)As far as I can tell, the definition of a 'closed compound' is one that is not written with a hyphen, so the answer to your question is trivially 'no'. But more generally there are plenty of words in which the use of the hyphen varies by dialect, meaning, personal preference, or over time, so there are plenty of words that could easily be considered closed compounds that are often written with a hyphen. It is simply a variable feature of English spelling. [[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] ([[User talk:Eluchil404|talk]]) 00:32, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::4.) @[[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]]'s answer is incorrect. Full stops can be [[Date and time notation in the United Kingdom|seen in British English]] and [https://www.stylemanual.gov.au/grammar-punctuation-and-conventions/numbers-and-measurements/dates-and-time Australian English], at least. [[User:Bazza_7|Bazza <span style="color:grey">7</span>]] ([[User_talk:Bazza_7|talk]]) 18:59, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::Previously discussed at [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2025 July 20#Date format]]. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7C:F0EC:ED00:E10D:241C:BE19:855D|2A02:C7C:F0EC:ED00:E10D:241C:BE19:855D]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7C:F0EC:ED00:E10D:241C:BE19:855D|talk]]) 12:05, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Agreed; see [[Date and time notation in the United Kingdom#All numeric dates]], although the example given there shows the month in Roman numerals which is somewhat archaic. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 22:18, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:Re 1: What is your definition of "lexical word"? I think ''as'' (other than as the plural of the letter name ''a'') would generally be classified as a function word, and declined or conjugated forms, such as ''has'', are usually also excluded. If these are allowed, there are many examples, such as ''says'' and ''bees''. I've heard ''gas'' as a clipping of ''gasoline'' pronounced with a /z/. Wiktionary gives [[wikt:pres#Pronunciation|/pɹɛz/]] as the pronunciation of ''pres'' as a clipping of ''presentation'', and [[wikt:res#Pronunciation_2|/ɹɛz/]] as the pronunciation of ''res'' as a clipping of any of ''reserve'', ''reservation'', ''reservoir'', ''residence'', ''resistance'', ''resolution'' and ''resurrection''. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 11:26, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
:Re 5: I don't know all Germanic languages, but the English rule that the comparative of an oversized adjective is not formed by suffixation does not apply to German: the comparative of ''überdimensioniert'' is even more oversized: ''überdimensionierter'' (seen used in the wild [https://www.horse-gate-forum.com/forum/zucht-und-vererbung/theorie-und-praxis/121765-der-club-der-wartenden-2013/page15 here]). ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 11:39, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::::I agree, although workarounds to monster comparatives are also relatively common in German: Here one might use ''stärker überdimensioniert'' rather than ''überdimensionierter''. -- [[Special:Contributions/2A02:8424:6281:D401:A5CE:E896:4E39:F464|2A02:8424:6281:D401:A5CE:E896:4E39:F464]] ([[User talk:2A02:8424:6281:D401:A5CE:E896:4E39:F464|talk]]) 12:59, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
::for [1], i think 40bus gave a list of more-or-less grammatical words and wanted to know if there were similar lexical words. so yes, plurals and 3sg forms, plus clippings. in the u.s., ''pres'' and ''res'' are quite common, plus i've heard ''des''. but there may be few that are vowel+s among the lemmas of a 19th-century dictionary. [[User:Kwamikagami|— kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 21:26, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 23 =
L palm-in th/f1=chin, tap2<br>
L handshape, palm orientation inward, then make the area between the thumb and index finger touch your chin and tap twice<br>
(the sign for "lesbian" in ASL)
== Purple prose ==
But maybe there are already established ways for showing in between instead of using my / or for contact instead of using my =
There are some devastatingly overpowering (ok I better stop) adjectives like breathtaking, stunning, and so on. Their purpose is to evoke an emotional response and associate it with the thing they describe.
--[[User:Sonjaaa|Sonjaaa]] 16:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there a linguistic term for that sort of word? Not just adjectives of course, but the obvious ones are adjectives. Thanks [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:5E3A:1231:9276:1405|2601:644:8581:75B0:5E3A:1231:9276:1405]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:5E3A:1231:9276:1405|talk]]) 04:31, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
:Are you aware of [[SignWriting]]? There's no Unicode support for it yet (and it would be difficult to implement because of the way the signs are put together), but it does use the asterisk * to indicate touching. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 18:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
:Perhaps not exactly the same as your examples, the devices of [[Hyperbole]] and [[Intensifier]] (which are usually adverbs) are closely related. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/90.210.150.115|90.210.150.115]] ([[User talk:90.210.150.115|talk]]) 07:26, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
Yes, I am, but I'm not sure if I like it or why it's even becoming popular. It's not as user-friendly as it could have been.--[[User:Sonjaaa|Sonjaaa]] 21:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
::Thanks, [[intensifier]] was kind of helpful, but I'm looking for a word class, or maybe a concept like [[markedness]]. I'm sort of surprised if there isn't one. [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:5E3A:1231:9276:1405|2601:644:8581:75B0:5E3A:1231:9276:1405]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:5E3A:1231:9276:1405|talk]]) 08:28, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
:That may be, but it's probably becoming popular because it's the best (only?) available option. English spelling isn't as user-friendly as it could have been, either, but we still muddle through all right! [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 22:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
:::Well, as they technically are adjectives, there's no need for a separate word class, but maybe I just misunderstood you and you were just talking about terminology. Loaded word? (Perhaps not exactly.) [[User:Wakuran|惑乱 Wakuran]] ([[User talk:Wakuran|talk]]) 10:01, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
:[https://books.google.com/books?id=K5VGPhuYVxIC&pg=PA209&dq=%22hyperbolic+adjective%22&hl=en Here] ''stunning'' is called a "hyperbolic adjective". But it is the hyperbolic use of a term that makes it hyperbolic; the adjective ''stunning'' is also used in a non-hyperbolic sense.<sup>[https://books.google.com/books?id=w1E4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA141&dq=stunning&hl=en][https://books.google.com/books?id=w1E4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA141&dq=stunning&hl=en] [https://books.google.com/books?id=IHNJAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA467&dq=%22stunning+blow%22&hl=en]</sup> ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 10:12, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
::Is [[WP:PEACOCK]] relevant here? [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 11:48, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
== PhilippineAccent nameto ID ==
I assume this is an [[ESL]] speaker, but can anyone identify the accent / original language [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xhf_Bw702k here]? Video contains gameplay from ''[[Fallout (franchise)|Fallout]]'', so somewhat NSFW. [[User:Matt Deres|Matt Deres]] ([[User talk:Matt Deres|talk]]) 12:51, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
The surname Bustamante is quite common in the Philippines. What does it mean? Is it from the Latin? [[User:66.213.33.2|66.213.33.2]] 17:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
: I'd say it's [[AI]]-ese.
: If someone can explain to me why so many videos have these creepy, off-putting artificial non-human voices rather than something we can actually relate to, I'd sleep better at night. "We do it because we can" is no answer, btw. -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 08:39, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
::My assumption is that reading a script ''with'' good [[Intonation (linguistics)|intonation]] and ''without'' stumbling is ''a lot'' harder than it seems, whereas AI voice generators ''can'' do so, although they almost always make a few different sorts of mistakes in pronunciation and emphasis. Also, if not a native English speaker, a video maker may feel they are unable to pronounce English well enough, and even some native speakers may may not like the sound of their voice or accent.
::I can think of at least two series of videos in whose contents I am interested, but find the makers'/narrators' deliveries offputting: one is Italian, the other English but with a strong regional accent and a monotonous delivery. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/90.210.150.115|90.210.150.115]] ([[User talk:90.210.150.115|talk]]) 10:20, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:::It can even be an AI rendering of the AI translation of a non-English original or other AI-generated text. It may soon no longer be creepy and ''detectably'' artificial, which will not help me sleep. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 12:15, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
::I don't ''think'' it's AI. There's no shortage of that stuff online, but the voice used here is more varied in tone and speed and more expressive than any confirmed AI I've heard. [[User:Matt Deres|Matt Deres]] ([[User talk:Matt Deres|talk]]) 14:08, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:::YouTube tells me "Video unavailable. This video is private. Go to home". [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 14:22, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::::Yeah, I got that as well. No idea what that's about. The user's page is [https://www.youtube.com/@AlternativeGamingChannel here]; any of the videos will do. [[User:Matt Deres|Matt Deres]] ([[User talk:Matt Deres|talk]]) 17:50, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
== Questions again ==
: It's a Spanish name. (Bustamente is also a variant) In this case I think it's from the late Latin "bustum" meaning "pasture". (It is used as such in several [[Fuero]]s). "Bustum" can also means "tomb" (in both cases from the past participle of "burere" = "to burn"). It was that meaning which appears to have morphed into the English "bust". --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 17:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
# Why words ''January'', ''June'' and ''July'' are pronounced with /d͡ʒ/ sound in English but with /j/ sound in other Germanic languages?
== hausa ==
# Is there any Romance language where names of these three months are pronounced with a /j/ sound?
# Are there any words in English where {{angbr|sc}} is pronounced /sk/ before {{angbr|e}} and {{angbr|i}}? In Finnish most words loaned from words similar to these are pronounced with /sk/, such as ''skenaario'', ''rektaskensio'', ''skientologia'' and ''scifi''.
# Are there any words in English where {{angbr|kn}} is pronounced with /kn/ complex onset? Are there any words in English with complex onsets of type plosive+plosive, plosive+fricative and plosive+nasal? In Finnish, all of these occur in some loanwords. --[[User:40bus|40bus]] ([[User talk:40bus|talk]]) 15:09, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
#:Regarding 4a, I don't believe so, apart from people doing it for humorous effect. A bit more [[Phonological_history_of_English_consonant_clusters#Reduction_of_/kn/|here]]. [[User:Matt Deres|Matt Deres]] ([[User talk:Matt Deres|talk]]) 15:47, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
#:(1) For the same reasons ‘j’ is so pronounced in nearly all English words. [[User:Tamfang|—Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 05:55, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
1. English is by no means a purely Germanic language. There's a lot of Old French influence, which is probably why January, June, July and also Julius and Jesus and any number of other words beginning with J are pronounced with the /d͡ʒ/ sound. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 15:28, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
what is the hausa metaphor of the murfu?
:Indeed. While modern French pronounces, for example, ''janvier'' with an initial /ʒ/: [[wikt:janvier#Pronunciation|/ʒɑ̃.vje/]], the pronunciation in Old French had /d͡ʒ/: [[wikt:janvier#Pronunciation_2|/d͡ʒanˈvjeːɾ/]]. English retained the Old French ([[Anglo-Norman language|Anglo-Norman]]) pronunciation of ⟨j⟩. The phoneme /ʒ/ occurs in unadapted borrowings (''jardinière'', ''je ne sais quoi'', ''joie de vivre'') or non-initially also as the result of the [[yod-coalescence]] of /zj/ into /ʒ/, as in ''azure'' (/ˈæzjʊə/ → /ˈæʒə/) and ''fusion'' (/ˈfjuːzjən/ → /ˈfjuːʒən/). ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 12:45, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:The [[Hausa people|Hausa]] are a West African people (who speak, unsurprisingly, the [[Hausa language]]). [http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:WeQZJ4HsCH0J:media.payson.tulane.edu:8084/cgi-bin/gw%3Fe%3Dt1c11help-aedl-1-T.1.B.9.6-500-50-10e%26q%3D%26d%3DT.1.B.9.11.1%26a%3Dt+murfu&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5 Google tells me] that a Murfu is a rudimentary [[stove]] based on a cut-apart [[Barrel (storage)|oil barrel]]. Anything can be considered a [[metaphor]] for almost anything else, so with no context, that's the best I can do. --[[User:ByeByeBaby|ByeByeBaby]] 00:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
3. One that immediately comes to mind is "skeptic", which in British usage is typically spelled "sceptic", but as far as I know it's pronounced "skeptic". ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 15:28, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
= May 17 =
:@[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] You are correct: [https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/sceptic it is pronounced that way]. [[User:Bazza_7|Bazza <span style="color:grey">7</span>]] ([[User_talk:Bazza_7|talk]]) 16:47, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
= May 18 =
2. Romanian. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 16:58, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
== Internship ==
4. ''Knuthian'', although some speakers may turn this into [kəˈnuːθiən] with an epenthetic schwa.
Can a Canadian person please tell me how he or she prnounces the word "internship"? Do most Canadians place the accent like "in'-tern-ship" or do you place the accent "in-tern'-ship"? [[User:J. Finkelstein|J. Finkelstein]] 01:36, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
4. You asked about initial /kn/ in [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2023_September_28#Question_4|September 2023]], again in [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2023_November_7#Questions_again|November 2023]], [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2024_March_11#Pronunciation_questions|March 2024]], [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2025_January_19#Questions|January 2025]], and now in August 2025. And behold, persistence works. English has ''[[knish]]'' as a loanword and used to have ''[[wikt:knut#English|knut]]'' as a humorous adaptation of ''[[wikt:nut#English|nut]]''. --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 20:10, 23 August 2025 (UTC) Oh, and another foodie word borrowed from Yiddish, ''[[wikt:knaidel|knaidel]]''. --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 20:30, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
:The first way. (Assuming I'm reading the two variants as you intended) [[User:Loomis51|Loomis51]] 02:44, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
: The Danish kings who ruled parts of England for a while included one that was long rendered as "[[Canute]]", but is starting to be seen as "[[Knut]]" or "[[Cnut]]" to better reflect its original spelling and pronunciation. [Side note: My partner's grandfather had the middle name Canute, but I doubt that anyone in the anglosphere would be game enough to name their child Cnut. I don't think I need to explain why.] -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 20:41, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
::[[Knute Rockne]], who was often referred to like "Newt", properly pronounced it like "K'newt". ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 02:36, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:::If an entry in the OED qualifies it as an English word then I can add [[Knesset]]. --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 08:13, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 24 =
::I think I've heard it both ways, but I personally stress the first syllable. INternship, not in-TURN-ship. (FYI: I'm from Calgary.) --[[User:ByeByeBaby|ByeByeBaby]] 06:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:::Toronto and Vancouver are also INturnship. [[User:61.25.248.86|61.25.248.86]] 06:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
== Origin of "operating on all cylinders" ==
Now that we seem to have a consensus amongst us Canadians, who pronounces it the other way? From what I understand, Americans pronounce it the same. But Brits...I don't know...[[User:Loomis51|Loomis51]] 23:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:As a Briton, I pronounce it INternship and have never heard the emphasis anywhere else. [[User:Skittle|Skittle]] 14:42, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Where does the phrase "operating on all cylinders" come from? [[User:Lizardcreator|Lizardcreator]] ([[User talk:Lizardcreator|talk]]) 12:19, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
Actually, come to think of it, (and this is both an interesting and odd discovery I just had,) the word "intern" can mean two completely different things, depending on how it's pronounced. One definition would be "an arrangement where a person new to a particular field gets on the job experience through a cooperative arrangement with the employer" and the other would be "the forced confinement of an individual by the state (usually by a totalitarian state, or at least in a totalitarian fashion, without due process of the law, due to one's political beliefs, ethnicity etc...)". In other words, "whereas I may get a job as an "INtern" at a Soviet television station, due to my dissident beliefs, the authorities may "inTERN" me in a special inTERNment camp." [[User:Loomis51|Loomis51]] 20:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:@[[User:Lizardcreator|Lizardcreator]]: It's a variation of "[https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780198609810.001.0001/acref-9780198609810-e-2672 firing on all cylinders]" and is a reference to a properly-working [[internal combustion engine]]. [[User:Bazza_7|Bazza <span style="color:grey">7</span>]] ([[User_talk:Bazza_7|talk]]) 12:27, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
== Meaning of a phrase ==
::Also found as ''running on all cylinders''<sup>[https://books.google.com/books?id=gvHzNsQoeH4C&pg=PR8&dq=%22running+on+all+cylinders%22&hl=en]</sup> and ''[[wikt:hitting on all cylinders|hitting on all cylinders]]''.<sup>[https://books.google.com/books?id=up3NAAAAMAAJ&pg=PT80&dq=%22hitting+on+all+cylinders%22&hl=en]</sup> In its literal sense, the term assumes a [[Internal combustion engine#Cylinder configuration|multi-cylinder configuration]]. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 13:04, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Checking Newspapers.com (pay site), I looked just for "running on all cylinders". Early references starting in 1907 referred specifically to cars. By 1910, it was being used metaphorically, as with a baseball report about a pitcher who had a good game. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 08:51, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:An internal combustion piston engine may experience a malfunction in some if its valves (if pesent), fuel injectors (if present) or spark plugs (if present) causing one of the cylinders to fail, reducing power output and maybe increasing pollution. "Operating on all cylinders" indicates the absence of such issues, so it means that everything is all right. But note that some piston engines, like some large ship's diesels and also some steam engines (which aren't internal combustion, but also have cylinders) can disable some cylinders on purpose. This can be for maintenance with the rest of the engine still running. In some configurations it could be used to increase efficiency at low power settings. [[User:PiusImpavidus|PiusImpavidus]] ([[User talk:PiusImpavidus|talk]]) 10:56, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 25 =
Can some one please help me with the meaning of the phrase "Rust never sleeps".
== Alphabetic principle ==
:Was the phrase used before Neil Young used it as an album title? I suspect not, in which case you're into the realm of interpretation. The literal meaning is that there is no way of stopping something from rusting once it's begun. I guess Young might have meant that the same applies to life - that things are inexorable. Or something. --[[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] 10:38, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I know that the alphabetic principle has been discussed extensively with the Latin alphabet. But what about Cyrillic alphabet? Or Thai alphabet? Or Mongolian alphabet? Or Korean alphabet? What about Arabic or Hebrew which would be abjads? If one learns Japanese kana and then the Chinese characters first, or Mandarin phonetic symbols and then the Chinese characters first, or even the old-school style of reciting the classics with the teacher first, then would the task of reading alphabets feel completely daunting? Or is that not-so-daunting because English language education is actually taught as a foreign language in the countries, starting in elementary school, making it more seamless for them? [[User:Yrotarobal|Yrotarobal]] ([[User talk:Yrotarobal|talk]]) 03:51, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:That's ''not'' the literal meaning- it's a ''metaphorical'' meaning. The literal meaning is that [[rust]] never [[sleep]]s. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 12:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:In ''[[Kingdom of Characters]]'', Jing Tsu wrote for the introduction about her own experience having to learn English and its English alphabet as a girl ahead of her family's planned move to the US. Growing up in Taiwan, during her critical-acquisition period she became familiar with, of course, {{zhi|漢字}} and [[zhuyin]]. In her case (p. xv):
::Depends on your definition of sleep. Are you saying that 'sleep' in this case is a metaphor for 'stop'? If so, I have to disagree. 'Sleep' and 'stop' can be synonyms. --[[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] 12:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:<blockquote>The determined effort to learn English was overkill, it turned out. My siblings and I learned to write the alphabet letters in no time. It was, to use an English idiom that took me many years to get right, a walk in the dark (park). There was just one problem: I had no feeling for the Western alphabet. I strained to relate to its form, despite the ease of picking it up. The written form was strangely empty of expressiveness, and the sounds attached to the letters felt arbitrary and emotionally flat without the tonal fluctuations of Chinese—the sounds I was born into.
:::If you use 'sleep' to mean 'stop', then you are using a metaphor. Sleep is the regular state of natural rest observed in all mammals, birds and fish. Any other use of the word is a metaphor. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 15:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:</blockquote> <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff"> 🌈 </span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 08:29, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::Hmmm - according to [[Rust Never Sleeps]], the title was borrowed from an advertising slogan for an anti-rust paint. The above interpretation might still work, however. --[[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] 10:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
::Thanks for the response.
::<small>I was born in China and came to America at the age of 4-5. I was only just exposed to the casual spoken language and Tang poetry, but the Tang poems were all recited. No written language exposure except for the newspapers that my mom and dad read and the children's books brought over from China. So, I naturally picked up the Latin alphabet; I don't know what you mean by "feeling" or "form". I used to think that English was the logical, more rational, language with strict grammatical rules and Chinese is the intuitive, more emotional, language with common sense. I was an introverted kid, so I interacted with books and the teachers more often than peers; and I might have adopted a very academic/educational writing style. I might have become more self-aware when I was 21, when I participated in that StraightDope online forum and one forum member complained how one forum member (me) would always write in complete sentences, respecting formal grammatical rules, asking questions as if I appeared from outer space. When I was in my high school sophomore class, I mentioned the word 'totalitarianism' in class and the American studies teacher and the class didn't know what I was talking about, but fortunately for me, I was more literate than I was social, so I spelled it out, and the teacher corrected me by stressing on the 2nd syllable, not the 1st syllable. Somehow, stressing on the 1st syllable makes a whole different word. I don't think it's a stress or tone or intonation or prosody issue, because both English and Mandarin have prosody and intonation and stress. Cantonese sounds choppy and more syllable-timed to me, but then again, that's not my Chinese background. It's just that, at the time, I was just exposed to the word by reading it instead of hearing it. LOL</small> [[User:Yrotarobal|Yrotarobal]] ([[User talk:Yrotarobal|talk]]) 13:43, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:The "[[alphabetic principle]]" means, in its "pure", most extreme form, a [[one-to-one correspondence]] between a set of [[grapheme]]s (letter signs) and the set of [[phoneme]]s of a language, a [[phonemic orthography]]. I don't think there are 100% pure instances of uses of the [[Latin alphabet]], but close contenders are [[Italian orthography|Italian]] and [[Turkish orthography|Turkish]]. [[English orthography|English]] is notoriously impure, as illustrated by the creative respelling ''[[ghoti]]''.
:Whether texts written in some alphabet adhere to this alphabetic principle does not depend on the alphabet itself, but on the [[orthography]] of a specific language for which it is used. [[Cyrillic alphabet|Cyrillic]] is used for many languages ([[Church Slavonic]], [[Rusyn]], ...), many of which have their own (Cyrillic) alphabet. Their orthographies tend to largely follow the alphabetic principle, but there are notable deviations – which may be regular. For the uses of other alphabets the situation is similar. I don't think there are languages whose writing system uses an alphabet but whose orthography has totally abandoned the alphabetic principle.
:The most pure instances can be expected when a new alphabet is created for some language, such as the [[Deseret alphabet]] for English, or when an alphabet is introduced for a language that before used a different writing system, such as the [[Turkish alphabet reform|Latin alphabet for Turkish]] and [[Dungan alphabets|Dungan]], both (independently) in 1928. Αs time passses, impurities creep in.
:Impurities arise mostly through changes in pronunciation that are not reflected in a more conservative orthography. The [[Old English]] adjective ''ruh'' and its [[Middle English]] descendant ''rough'' were pronounced with a final /x/, as is today's Scots ''roch''. When the English pronunciation changed to final /f/, the spelling did not follow suit. When the Romans borrowed words from Ancient Greek that were spelled with a [[phi]] ({{serif|Φ}}) or [[theta]] ({{serif|Θ}}), such as {{serif|φθίσις}}, which has both, these letters were pronounced both in Greek and in Latin with aspirated consonants, /pʰ/ and /tʰ/, which was reflected in the Latin spellings {{serif|PH}} and {{serif|TH}}. These spellings remained when /pʰ/ became /f/ in Latin (and first /ɸ/, later also /f/, in Greek) and /tʰ/ became unaspirated /t/ in Latin (and /θ/ in Greek). Learned borrowings from Latin in many English, French, German and other languages written in the Latin alphabet just copied the Latin ph/th spelling even if otherwise adapting the borrowing, and this orthographic relic was even carried over to newly coined words based on Greek stems, such as ''hydro<u>ph</u>obic''. For more on this, see {{section link|Phonemic orthography#Deviations from phonemic orthography}}.
:Like in English, the modern orthography of [[Hangul]], the Korean alphabet, tends to be based on the pronunciation of the [[morpheme]]s of which words are composed, ignoring phonemic changes due to neighbouring morphemes. Other than that, it is mostly phonemic. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 13:14, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::I guess I wasn't sure what the original question was, because "is a perfectly shallow orthography conceptually difficult for those not accultured" didn't make much sense to me? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff"> 🌈 </span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 13:18, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::I don't think any natural language evolved naturally from a community of people can be pure in the logical or rational sense. To subscribe to the alphabetic principle, a man-made concept, is a bit weird. Why would a natural phenomena subscribe to any man-made concept perfectly? Are man-made concepts like the alphabetic principle merely used to describe nature? Aren't these academic/university subjects derived from the study of natural philosophy? [[User:Yrotarobal|Yrotarobal]] ([[User talk:Yrotarobal|talk]]) 13:50, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
== WordsAugust 26 ==
Can anyone please tell me what is the word that describes a word that begins and ends with the same letter,eg Norman.
Thank You
Norman Martin
:I'm pretty sure there's no word for this. A [[palindrome]] is a word or phrase that reads the same forwards and backwards, like ''deified'', but ''Norman'' is not a palindrome. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] 15:36, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
::There must be a name for such thing in verses (poetry). If one verse is made of only one word, you have your denomination. --[[User:Harvestman|DLL]] 20:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
== Learning a language ==
How can I learn this language <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:213.55.89.8|213.55.89.8]] ([[User talk:213.55.89.8|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/213.55.89.8|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small><!-- [Template:Unsigned] -->
:What language? —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] 15:10, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
what is the meaning of abigna?
:What language? --[[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]] 18:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
== Does French have retroflex consonants? ==
Does [[French]] have [[retroflex consonants]]? —[[User:Masatran|Masatran]] 16:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:No. Check out [[French phonology]], which has an IPA chart. -[[user:rasd]]
:: And what about the other [[Romance languages]]? —[[User:Masatran|Masatran]] 16:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
::: I've heard that [[Sardinian language|Sardinian]] has retroflex consonants. And [[Romansh language|Romansh]] is described has having the phonemic opposition {{IPA|/tʃ/}}~{{IPA|/tɕ/}}, which under some theories is always actually {{IPA|/ʈʂ/}}~{{IPA|/tɕ/}} (as in [[Mandarin (linguistics)|Mandarin]] and [[Polish language|Polish]]), though I don't know if the claim has ever been made specifically for Romansh. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 17:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
== meaning of Abigna ==
could anyone knows the meaning of Abigna?
thank you,
Guru
:In what language? It is not an English word. --[[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]] 18:44, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
::A quick google seems to indicate that it's a place name; a town in [[Guinea-Bissau]]. It's also a term in [[Redneck]] English, meaning roughly "of sufficient size". For example: "Hey, Bubba! Why'd y'all get stuck in tha mud holler?" "Well, Billy-Bob, it's 'cause I ain't bought '''abigna''' truck. Y'all gimme a tow?" --[[User:ByeByeBaby|ByeByeBaby]] 04:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Contraction of "a big enough".
== "Trenchtown Rock" lyrics ==
Okay, according to various lyrics websites, these are the lyrics to "[[Trenchtown Rock]]" by [[Bob Marley and the Wailers]]: [http://www.bobmarley.com/songs/songs.cgi?trenchtownrock]; [http://www.bobmarley.com/songs/songs.cgi?trenchtownrock]. So, can anyone tell me what "No want you fe galang so" means? What about "You want come cold I up"? Thanks, — [[User:BrianSmithson|BrianSmithson]] 18:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:According to [http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Literacy/jamaica.asp this site], the lyric "No want you fe galang so / You want come cold I up" is in [[Jamaican patois]] and means, approximately, "I don't want you to act like that / You're trying to keep me down". The same meaning as about 50% of the rest of Bob Marley's lyrics, now that I think about it. I hope you like jammin' too, --[[User:ByeByeBaby|ByeByeBaby]] 04:31, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
::Thanks. And I hope this jam is gonna last. — [[User:BrianSmithson|BrianSmithson]] 12:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
== Diaphragm etymology ==
I have a question about the history of the word [[diaphragm]]. I recently expanded the [[diaphragm]] page (a disambiguation page) to include many other uses of the word diaphragm. That got me interested in the history of the changing use of that word, and wondering which uses came first, and how each use relates to the other. It is fairly easy to look up the etymology of the original diaphragm word, but how could I get the dates of first use of all the other terms, and find oout how they are related to each other? [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] 20:02, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:The [[OED]] is usually quite good about giving date of first appearance of each different meaning of a word. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 21:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
::I really must get a subscription... The cheapest option seems to be £7.50 for a week. Either that or go to a library. Is anyone with access able to at least say whether their coverage of [[diaphragm]] is what I'm looking for? [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] 21:58, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:::I think so. The meaning of "muscle in the abdomen" dates back to 1398, the meaning "anything resembling the diaphragm in form or funtion" back to 1660, the meaning "contraceptive cap" back to 1933, the meaning "septum or partition in shells or plants" back to 1665, the meaning "thin lamina or plate serving as a partition" back to 1665, the meaning "porous cup of a voltaic cell" back to 1870, the meaning "membrane stretched in or on a frame, esp. a vibrating membrane in an acoustic instrument like a telephone" back to 1853, the meaning "assemblage of lines of reference in a telescope" back to 1829. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 22:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
::::Wow! Thanks. That telescope reference, which I thought was a new meaning, seems to be the origin of [[diaphragm (optics)]]. Now, about the dates you've provided, is it OK to put that in Wikipedia somewhere? Do I reference the OED? It might look something like this:
*[[diaphragm (anatomy)]] (1398)
*resembling a diaphragm (1660)
*septum or partition in shells or plants (1665)
*thin lamina or plate serving as a partition (1665)
*[[diaphragm (optics)]] (1829)
*[[diaphragm (acoustics)]] (1853)
*porous cup of a voltaic cell (1870)
*[[diaphragm (contraceptive)]] (1933)
The ones that aren't dated (not shown) seem to be all the modern engineering uses of the term diaphragm. Presumably the OED hasn't got round to those yet. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] 22:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
::Another note: over on the Science Reference Desk, I was also asking about [[diaphragm]], but in relation to [[septum]] and [[septa (biology)]]. That last one seems particularly relevant to the OED quote above concerning "septum or partition in shells or plants". Is there any way to confirm whether [[septa (biology)]] is indeed the same as this diaphragm meaning "septum in shells or plants"? [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] 01:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:Basically, they're all about the same: a membrane supported around its edges. The only good question for this page is how or whether to use such detailed citations from the OED, which is not public ___domain. Let's take the specific word etymology discussion back to the specific talk page. And yes, septa is plural for septum; who knows why the [[septa]] article uses the plural title??? [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] 06:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
In ancient Greek, the word diaphragma (pronounced diap-hrang-ma with aspirated "p") meant "partition wall" or "membrane which divides the lung from the stomach" (Reference: lesser Liddell and Scott). 05:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:I can't find my Liddell, because I was going to parse the word properly = dia+phragma; I'm very surprised to see p-h/aspirated 'p' in the previous comment; I would have expected -phragma to be written with a phi (f); on the other hand come to think of it the addition of the dia- prefix would aspirate an initial p- on the root....pragma coming from ''praxis'', action; so the ''etymology'' is "between/within/through action" (i.e. life?...and I've probably mussed up possible meanings of "dia" ); or whatever other meaning ''pragma'' can derive from ''praxis''. Or not?[[User:Skookum1|Skookum1]] 07:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
::I wasn't parsing the word morphologically, but giving a rough pronunciation guide. Aspirated "p" was always written with the letter phi in ancient Greek (except that some would say that the stop sound in the "ps" combination written by the letter psi was also aspirated). [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 18:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
::I don't have my Liddell and Scott to hand, but I can say with some certainty that ''dia-'' does NOT aspirate a following stop, so this word cannot contain the root ''prag-''. Its root must be something like ''phrag-'', ''phrak-'', or ''phrakh-''. Perhaps something related to ''break''/Lat. ''frangō''? [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 08:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:::The root is phrag- and the 1st. person singular active present indicative verb form is phrassô "to fence". [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 19:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:::Phragmite is a kind of cane. Is there a link with "layer", "foil", which was the papyrus use ? --[[User:Harvestman|DLL]] 19:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
::::Phragma (in ancient Greek pronounced p-hrangma) meant "a fence" (or more abstractly, a protective measure). [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 19:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::So the anatomical sense would be "fence between (the abdominal and thoracic cavities)"? Sound right.[[User:Skookum1|Skookum1]] 21:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
= May 19 =
== Lunchbox in Portuguese ==
Hello, I'm looking for the original of the Thai word ปิ่นโต /pin.to/ (lunch box). I've learned before that the original word came from the Portuguese word. However I could not find the reference for that. The only word that I found is "pinto" meaning chicken.
Thank you for any question. I searched on the Internet and found one lunchbox that similar to Thai lunchbox [http://www.teresadiascoelho.com/gallery-objects-01.php], but it's written in English not the Portuguese --[[User:Manop|Manop - TH]] 03:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:Are you sure it's not from the Japanese [[bento]]? [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 09:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Very likely from the Japanese (the Thai ป isn't really a p, but sort of half way between p and b).
That said....
The Portuguese past participle ''bento'', related to the Portuguese verb ''bendizer'' (to bless), stems from the Latin ''benedire'', "to bless" (literally "to say well").... as in ''benedictus''.
The Japanese word ''bento'' (弁当, べんとう) is said to have originated from a 16th Century military commander called Odo Nobunaga [http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1084655]. Odo Nobunaga had close links to the Jesuits [http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/people_nobunaga.html], so it's possible that he borrowed the word from a Portuguese blessing.
If that's the case, then the Thai tiffin carrier might have same root as the name of the Pope. [[User:TheMadBaron|TheMadBaron]] 11:02, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:: Thank you all. --[[User:Manop|Manop - TH]] 16:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Bento is also a very common Portuguese name (forename, surname and placename, and the name of at least one ship, São Bento (named after [[Benedict of Nursia|Saint Benedict]], lost in 1554 [http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/projects%20ir%20data-1554sbento.htm]). Interestingly, Bento Fernandes, one of the "great missionary personalities of the time," was a contemporary of Odo Nobunaga, and active in Japan [http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/9901/ZE990119.html].... so maybe it was ''his'' lunchbox.... [[User:TheMadBaron|TheMadBaron]] 20:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:I don't have my kanji dictionary at hand but I'm quite sure the kanji for ''bentō'' are [[ateji]] (as opposed to it being a Sino-Japanese compound, or a fully Japanese word), which is an instant indicator of an old Japanese word not of Japanese origin. Since Portuguese words are abundant in Japanese (second only to English), it's a pretty safe bet that that's where it came from. [[User:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="white" style="background:blue"> freshgavin</font>]][[User_talk:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="blue">ΓΛĿЌ </font>]] 16:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
It's entirely possible, I suppose, that "bento" might have been a Portuguese term for a food carrier at the time, even if no longer used in modern Portuguese. If that's the case, the Thai word is perhaps as likely to have been borrowed directly from Portuguese traders, without Japanese influence. Either way, assuming that Freshgavin is correct, all signs indicate a Portuguese origin. [[User:TheMadBaron|TheMadBaron]] 21:09, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:According to a Japanese etymology site, the term bento has been used sinse [[Kamakura period]][http://gogen-allguide.com/he/bentou.html ], which predates Japanese contact of Portuguese. It says the term is derived from Chinese 便当, meaning convininent. Another theory is it may be derived from 面桶, meaning 'a bucket for a meal' but the site rejects this theory because pronunciations of 面桶 and 弁当 differs in classical Japanese. --[[User:Kusunose|Kusunose]] 03:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::That's a very nice site. I'll look at that one again. [[User:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="white" style="background:blue"> freshgavin</font>]][[User_talk:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="blue">ΓΛĿЌ </font>]] 17:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
== Wiki language codes for "Chinese simplified" and "Chinese traditional"? ==
I am creating a wiki using some of the content of http://www.dmoz.org.
I would like to know what interwiki language codes to use for the content of:
* http://www.dmoz.org/World/Chinese_Simplified/
* http://www.dmoz.org/World/Chinese_Traditional/
I am getting the codes from http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias.
For example, the interwiki language code is "'''fr'''" for:
* http://www.dmoz.org/World/Fran%c3%a7ais/
I imagine one of them will use "zh"
Which ones do I need for '''Chinese Simplified''' and which for '''Chinese Traditional''':
* zh
* zh-yue
* zh-min-nan
* something else?
Thanks!
[[User:Brusselsshrek|Brusselsshrek]] 09:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:I don't think we have separate traditional and simplified Wikipedias: they're both the same language, so they're both covered by zh. I suspect that zh uses unicode characters which you can view in either traditional or simplified fonts. Yue and Minnan are for the Yue (Cantonese) and Minnan dialects/languages respectively, and are definitely not what you want. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 09:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, thanks. Hmmm. Let me ask a follow-up question then. If I map BOTH dmoz Simplified AND Traditional pages to wiki "zh" pages can you see a problem with overlapping? i.e. will pages, as far as you can see, end up with the same wiki name? I don't know enough about the two systems to know if the URL strings would be distinct. Let me give an example:
If I start with the English page (phew!) http://www.dmoz.org/Science/ I can see that it has a link to language versions in both Chinese (Traditional) AND Chinese Simplified. These pages are:
*http://www.dmoz.org/World/Chinese_Simplified/%e7%a7%91%e5%ad%a6/
*http://www.dmoz.org/World/Chinese_Traditional/%e7%a7%91%e5%ad%b8/
Since the suffix of these two is different, I could render these two pages in a wiki as (I suppose):
*zh.mywiki.com/%e7%a7%91%e5%ad%a6/
*zh.mywiki.com/%e7%a7%91%e5%ad%b8/
BUT, is it 100% safe to assume that they will ALWAYS be different in the suffix of the URL?
Thanks again! [[User:Brusselsshrek|Brusselsshrek]] 09:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:No, I don't think they will be different. Compare [http://www.dmoz.org/World/Chinese_Simplified/%e5%81%a5%e5%ba%b7/ this one] and [http://www.dmoz.org/World/Chinese_Traditional/%e5%81%a5%e5%ba%b7/ this one]: these use the same characters in simplified and traditional forms, so the suffix is the same. I think you would need to either merge them, or add something to the suffix to distinguish them. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 10:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, thanks, this is all very helpful to a non-Chinese speaker with the task of sorting this out. Since wiki seems to think a single "zh" suffices, is this Simplified/Traditional Chinese rather like the American/British English thing that a wiki page could be written in either as long as a whole page is consistent? (Sure, I understand traditional chars a lot more complex). My thought would be just to take ONLY the Dmoz Simplified pages into the wiki. In your view, would that lose a lot of valuable Dmoz info, or is the Simplified/Traditional content basically just a duplication but in a "different" language? [[User:Brusselsshrek|Brusselsshrek]] 10:27, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:As I understand it, a page can be written in simplified encoding, traditional encoding, or unicode. The simplified dmoz will list simplified and unicode pages, while the traditional dmoz will list traditional and unicode pages, so there will be some duplication. I don't know how popular unicode is versus the specialised encodings, so I don't know ''how much'' duplication there would be. Using simplified only is probably the best easy solution, although you'll certainly end up with content which has a lot from the PRC and not much from Taiwan. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 10:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:: Simple and traditional refers primarily to the writing system, only secondarily to the encoding. I suspect that the simplified dmoz will try to list only Unicode pages written in Simplified Chinese. It's not merely American/British, where it's 99% mutually intelligible; it take more education, but I don't know if most Chinese get that education.--[[User:Prosfilaes|Prosfilaes]] 16:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
== Slovensko and Slovensky wiki language codes? ==
I am creating a wiki using some of the content of http://www.dmoz.org. I'm making good progress with finding each of the wiki language codes to use, but I would like to know what interwiki language codes to use for the content of:
* http://www.dmoz.org/World/Slovensko/
* http://www.dmoz.org/World/Slovensky/
I am getting the codes from http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias.
For example, the interwiki language code is "'''fr'''" for:
* http://www.dmoz.org/World/Fran%c3%a7ais/
My Slovensko and Slovensky is even worse than my Chinese (which itself is limited to "Special Fried Rice").
Thanks!
[[User:Brusselsshrek|Brusselsshrek]] 11:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:Slovensko is Slovenian, Slovensky is Slovak. Slovenian is sl, Slovak is sk. :) [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 11:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
::Wikis here use country codes (see [[ISO 3166-1]]) as language codes. There must be inventions sometimes (aulde english, pidgin ...) --[[User:Harvestman|DLL]] 19:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
That is strange, because "Slovensko" is also the native name for [[Slovakia]]. You can see how George Bush confused these countries. -- [[User:Mwalcoff|Mwalcoff]] 00:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:::Actually I rather suspect that the etymological similarity had nothing at all to do with why he confused these countries. Plain ignorance, more like. [[User:Arbitrary username|Arbitrary username]] 17:59, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
: How's that strange? The countries have the same name, etymologically. --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 08:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
== Taiwanese wiki language code? ==
Thanks [[User:Henry_Flower]], you're great at this! (How come you know all this stuff?)
Finally, what is the wiki language code (see above questions) for Taiwanese:
* http://www.dmoz.org/World/Taiwanese/
:Ah, that's an easy one. Taiwanese is Minnan, so zh-min-nan. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 12:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
== "ye high" ==
Where does the expression "ye high" come from? Old English?
I've been looking for a good definition, but there's just none to find (somebody add it to wiktionary, please).
Usage (I think): "He's about ye high (holds up hand to indicate the height of a person)" -<font color="#FF0000">[[User:Obli|O]]</font>[[User:Obli|bli]] ([[User_talk:Obli|Talk]])<small><sup>[[WP:TALK|?]]</sup></small> 19:39, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:I would have spelled it "yea" or "yay"; here is [http://experts.about.com/q/Etymology-Meaning-Words-1474/yea-yeah.htm one page] with some information seeming to indicate that it's a fairly recently coined slang term or idiom. --[[User:LarryMac|LarryMac]] 19:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
::According to Google searches, "yea" is only slightly more popular than "ye", I guess that's what happens to new words that are only used in speech. Thanks for the emytology, I'll add it to wiktionary, myself. -<font color="#FF0000">[[User:Obli|O]]</font>[[User:Obli|bli]] ([[User_talk:Obli|Talk]])<small><sup>[[WP:TALK|?]]</sup></small> 20:01, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:::Actually, it's substantially more popular; searches for just "ye high" or "yea high" or "yay high" by themselves are loaded with false results. Googling for "about [yea/yay/ye] [high/big/tall]" shows that yay is more popular than yea, which tends to be about four times as popular as ye. —[[User:Zero Gravitas|Zero Gravi]]'''[[User_talk:Zero Gravitas|t]]'''[[User:Zero Gravitas|as]] 20:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
: In older English there's "ye" as in "all ye", meaning "you". Then there's "ye" for the definite article "the", where the "y" is actually a thorn (þ), and which is pronounced just as "the". Then there's "yea" as in "yes". But that's it, AFAIK. --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 08:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
::I've heard it used a lot in the Irish Republic - so probably dialectal as well as archaic. [[User:Greatgavini|Greatgavini]] 17:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:::A nuance I don't see mentioned in any link so far is that it tends to indicate a bit of estimation is going on. I don't know where it came from, but for what it's worth, I first heard it from my big brother, and the only other time I came across it was in a comic strip, which argues well for the 'recent slang' interpretation. [[User:Black Carrot|Black Carrot]] 19:28, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
::::It was certainly around in Britain when I was young. Which was some time in the 80s. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 19:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::The OED uses the spelling "yay", and the first quotation they have is from 1960. [[User:Lesgles|Lesgles]] (<small>[[User_talk:Lesgles|talk]]</small>) 20:16, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
== speech synthesiser ==
Does anyone know of a [[speech synthesis]] program (preferably free or maybe commercial, and for either Windows or Linux) which lets you input the required sounds phonetically in [[IPA]] or maybe say [[SAMPA]] / [[X-SAMPA]] rather than as orthography? It seems that most packages do "text to speech", but it would be nice to have a bit more control. Thanks. [[User:Arbitrary username|Arbitrary username]] 21:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
: I doubt it; IPA phonetic notation doesn't convey enough information for a speech synthesiser to do its work. MBROLA uses a .pho format, which is SAMPA with numbers for length, tone, pitch, volume etc. -- [[User:EdC|EdC]] 16:35, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
::Many thanks for the tip. That makes sense; I don't mind providing ''more'' specific information. I'll have a look into MBROLA. [[User:Arbitrary username|Arbitrary username]] 17:50, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:::There's [http://www.microsoft.com/speech/download/universalphoneset/ this] from Microsoft. I haven't read about it, though. [[User:Ardric47|Ardric47]] 02:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::::Many thanks, though I fear that that one may be a few too many steps removed from the end-user for me to cope with. [[User:Arbitrary username|Arbitrary username]] 17:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
== So far to date ==
Is it corret to say "So far to date" or should one stick to just either "so far", or "to date"?[[User:159.134.255.9|159.134.255.9]] 00:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:Yes, it does appear redundant. However the two phrases have different nuances. It would be best if I heard the entire sentence to choose which of the two sounds better. [[User:Loomis51|Loomis51]] 00:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
::I could imagine someone saying "Our company found the sources of 12 items so far to date." I wouldn't use the "so far" and I really don't like the sound of that sentence but it does get across the additional meaning that they expect to continue to find more sources in the future. [[User:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="white" style="background:blue"> freshgavin</font>]][[User_talk:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="blue">ΓΛĿЌ </font>]] 16:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:It still sounds redundant. Only one should be used. Perhaps this is oversimplifying, but "so far" seems to me a more "casual", while "to date" seems to be a more "technical" expression. In many cases both would be acceptable, but I'll give a few examples of where one is clearly more appropriate than the other:
:If you're waiting for a friend to call, and she hasn't yet, you'd definitely say "She hasn't called ''so far''" and NEVER "She hasn't called ''to date''" (with a few exceptions, for example if she's gone missing for many years, it might sound appropriate to say "she hasn't called to date.")
:For more scientific statements, "to date" is more acceptable, but "so far" seems acceptable as well. For example: "To date, we have no hard evidence of extra-terrestrial life." But, as I said, so far can be used as well, but with a less "professional", "scientific" sound. "So far, we have no hard evidence of extra-terrestrial life."
:Bottom line, when in doubt, use "so far" and you probably won't go wrong. [[User:Loomis51|Loomis51]] 23:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::Another variant I like is "up until now". [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 02:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
= May 20 =
== Hung for a sheep as a lamb ==
While reading '''Sex Drugs and Economics''', written by a British author, I came across the above phrase and I thought it was lovely but it was a novel expression to my American eyes. A few hours later I was listening to Neil Gaiman read on of his stories where an American tourist used the phrase and I realized it was nothing an American would have used as far as I know.
I would love to know how, where and when this phrase originated or at least a site that will not give me the run around while I'm trying to search for it.
Thanks so much for any assistance. - [[User:Kubzz|Kubzz]] 07:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
: The first result on Google UK: [http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/14/messages/685.html]
:: The Oxford English Dictionary has a quotation from Richardson, "Clarissa" (1748): "In for the lamb, as the saying is, in for the sheep." The saying must be older; I don't know by how much.
:: 'I might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.' If the consequence of failure is the same in either case, then go for the option that yields the greatest reward if the venture succeeds.
:: Suggested origin:
:: Until at least 1800 in England, the penalty for stealing sheep, irrespective of the animal's age or gender, was execution or deportation. Since there is more meat and wool on a fully-grown sheep, why bother putting the same effort into stealing a lamb if the consequence of being caught for either crime was the gallows?
: Someone might see their way to adding this to Wiktionary. -- [[User:EdC|EdC]] 16:43, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:I don't think there is anything exclusively British about this phrase. Perhaps it has passed out of use in the USA, but it is generally understood in the UK today. A little search shows that US author [[Horatio Alger]] used the phrase in [http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/gutenberg/etext06/8bold10.txt this book]. [[User:Notinasnaid|Notinasnaid]] 18:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
::It is also generally understood in Australia. Not surprising, since we've had more than a bit to do with both [[penal transportation]] and sheep. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 22:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank so much for the quick responses. :) - [[User:Kubzz|Kubzz]] 07:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:According to the ''Everyman Dictionary of Quotations and Proverbs'' it was listed in [[John Ray]]'s ''Collection of English Proverbs'' (1670). <small><font color="#000000">[[User:MeltBanana|MeltBanana]]</font></small> 14:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::I,ve always understood it to mean that, having already stolen a little lamb, you might as well go on to steal a big sheep as well, because the punishment is going to be the same - ie having committed one offence you might as well carry on and commit others. [[User:Jameswilson|Jameswilson]] 00:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
==Same pronunciation==
This line from [[Canadian raising]] puzzles me:
"So, whereas the General American pronunciations of "rider" and "writer" are identical [{{IPA|ɹaɪɾɚ}}], those whose dialects include either the full or restricted Canadian raising will pronounce them as [{{IPA|ɹaɪɾɚ}}] and [{{IPA|ɹəɪɾɚ}}], respectively."
One of those words has a d in the middle, the other a t. I don't pronounce them the same and I grew up not far from the "classic" General American" region. Is this really correct or are only the vowels the same in both words. [[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] 22:43, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:It looks like my cut-and-paste of those useless IPA characters didn't work. We need sound more samples! [[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] 22:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
::They're useful to me... I pronounce them exactly as shown in normal speech. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] 00:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::I added in [[Template:IPA]], so they should show up now. [[User:Ardric47|Ardric47]] 02:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:I think it was also noting "the North American English process of flapping, which merges /t/ and /d/ in [{{IPA|ɾ}}] before unstressed vowels", but I see someone has now changed "writer" into "spider" and the reference to sounding identical to a reference to rhyming. To a Briton, the "Classic" American accent involves pronouncing 't' as 'd' in many places, and I think this is the accent it is refering to. ie "Warder" instead of "water". [[User:Skittle|Skittle]] 13:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:::As a Canadian, although I ''might'' pronounce the "d" and the "t" differently, by far, the more noticeable difference would be in my pronunciation of the "i". The "ri" in "rider" whould be pronounced like the grain "rye", whereas the word "writer" would rhyme with "fighter". Is it actually any different in American English? [[User:Loomis51|Loomis51]] 23:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::::So, you're saying the article is right? But now I'm really intrigued because I pronounce the vowel in 'rye' the same as the vowel at the beginning 'fighter'. What's the difference to you? [[User:Skittle|Skittle]] 23:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::Another Canadian here. I pronounce them like the first example. Can't input IPA here so "rai" and "fuy". The article is right (ruyt), and I remember hearing about this (along with cot, caught, and all that) on a TV show about the Canadian accent a couple years ago. [[User:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="white" style="background:blue"> freshgavin</font>]][[User_talk:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="blue">ΓΛĿЌ </font>]] 17:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::Oh, and about the t and d. Both are flapped for me and would probably be written identically in IPA, but because the dipthong of "rider" is a little bit longer than "writer", the flapped "d" from "rider" is a little bit stronger than the flapped "t". [[User:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="white" style="background:blue"> freshgavin</font>]][[User_talk:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="blue">ΓΛĿЌ </font>]] 17:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::In North American English, the vowel in ''rider'' is often longer than that in ''writer''. That is the only difference. I'm no expert on Canadian raising, but as I understand it, the rule is that before voiceless stops, the diphthong nucleus of (ay) and (aw) begins higher at [ʌ] (in the article, it says [ə], but never mind) and in other contexts remains lower at, e.g., [a]. This is the same phenomenon that leads to the stereotyped pronunciation of ''about''. The case of ''writer'' shifting but not ''rider'' would, to my mind, suggest that the mechanism in question is not really the following consonant directly, but diphthong length. [[user:mnewmanqc|mnewmanqc]]
= May 21 =
==Help needed==
Following are lyrics (Persian) of Shakila's song Yegaaneh, which I completely love. It would be *awesome* if someone can translate it for me. Thanks a ton!
تا کی به تمنای وصال تو یگانه<br>
اشکم شود از هر مژه چون سیل روانه<br>
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه<br>
خواهد به سرآیدشب هجران تو یا نه<br>
جمعی به تو مشغول و تو فارغ ز میانه<br>
هر در که زنم صاحب آن خانه تویی تو<br>
هر جا که شدم پرتو کاشانه تویی تو<br>
در کعبه و در دیر چو جانانه تویی تو<br>
منظور من از کعبه و بتخانه تویی تو مقصود تویی ...کعبه و بتخانه بهانه<br>
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه<br>
بلبل به چمن زار گل رخسار نشان دید<br>
پروانه در آتش شد و اسرار نهان دید<br>
عارف صفت حمد تو از پیر و جوان دید<br>
یعنی همه جا عکس رخ یار توان دید<br>
دیوانه منم ..من که روم خانه به خانه<br>
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه<br>
جمعی به تو مشغول و تو فارغ ز میانه<br>
عاقل به قوانین خرد راه تو جوید<br>
دیوانه برون از همه آئین تو پوید<br>
تا غنچهء نشکفتهء این باغ که بوید<br>
هر کس به زبانی صفت حمد تو گوید<br>
بلبل به غزل خوانی و قمری به ترانه<br>
رفتم به در صومعه زاهد و عابد<br>
دیدم همه را پیش رخت راکع و ساجد<br>
در بتکده رهبانم و در صومعه زاهد<br>
گه معتکف دیرم و گه ساکن مسجد<br>
یعنی که تو را می طلبم خانه به خانه<br>
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه<br>
بلبل به چمن زان گل رخسار نشان دید<br>
پروانه در آتش شد و اسرار نهان دید<br>
عارف صفت حمد تو از پیر و جوان دید<br>
یعنی همه جا عکس رخ یار توان دید<br>
دیوانه منم ..من که روم خانه به خانه<br>
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه<br>
جمعی به تو مشغول و تو فارغ ز میانه<br>
[[User:deeptrivia|deeptrivia]] ([[User talk:deeptrivia|talk]]) 00:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:In case no one answers here, you could try browsing [[:Category:User fa-N]] for a friendly face. The only person listed at [[Wikipeida:Translators available]] for Persian-to-English is [[User:Nima.nezafati]], but s/he hasn't been here since March. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 10:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
*If the stupid mullahs hadn't seized power in Iran, the maybe an [[Ataturk]] would Romanize the Persian script which would make it easier for people to learn Persian and look up words in a Persian-English dictionary.[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 01:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:: ROTFL! As I've said on this page before, Romanization will be a stupid idea, because the Roman script is one of the dumbest, and doesn't make any sense at all. In fact the whole world should switch to a real phonetic [[Brahmi]]-based script. [^_^] Oh no! I'm talking about it again! [[User:deeptrivia|deeptrivia]] ([[User talk:deeptrivia|talk]]) 03:49, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
==Right word==
What word refers to the process by which a company expands too fast and therefore loses its focus? For example, [[Yahoo!]] was created as a collection of favourite pages, and now they offer everything under the sun, and seem to have lost their focus. [[Google]] used to offer only search, but now they offer social networking and other services that have nothing to do with search. These services usually do not reflect the usual Google quality and corporate [[culture]]/values.
Another example could be an company initially offering high-quality online communication services, which clearly reflect their corporate culture and values; but then expanding into online games, then software, then telecommunications, etc. and their products in these new markets do not reflect the quality of their online communication services or their corporate culture/values.
This process does not occur if a company expands quickly, but still retains their focus, quality and corporate culture/values.
--[[User:Hildanknight|J.L.W.S. The Special One]] 00:40, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:[[Selling out]]? [[User:Black Carrot|Black Carrot]] 02:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:[[Peter principle]]? [[User:Zoe]]|[[User talk:Zoe|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:[http://houston.bizjournals.com/houston/stories/2001/02/05/newscolumn2.html Diworsification]? [[User:ByeByeBaby|ByeByeBaby]] 09:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:Conglomeration, maybe... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 16:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:It can be a precursor to the company "reinventing itself". Although that would come later, after they realised they'd lost their focus. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 02:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
== How is "re" pronounced? ==
How does one pronounce "re," the short form of "regarding," as in
To: John Doe
From:Jane Smith
Re: The pronunciation of the word at the beginning of this line!
Since it is a short form of "regarding" it seems "re" should rhyme with "tree."
I have had a boss who is sure it's pronounced as if it were spelled "ray," as in the musical notes "do, re me...," or as if it were Latin such as in the phrase "in re your estate," for example.
I don't like mispronouncing words and would love a definative answer!
Thank you.
--[[User:67.150.213.166|67.150.213.166]]
:AFAIK, it's not a short form of "regarding", it ''is'' Latin, the same word as in "in re your estate". Nevertheless, the word can be pronounced either way ("ray" or "ree"), because Latin words used in English often get anglicized pronunciations (such as pronouncing ''c'' like /s/ in ''et cetera'', or pronouncing the first syllable of ''habeas corpus'' "hay"). [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 10:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::See [[IETF]] ([ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc3834.txt RFC 3834]) : "Just as the (Latin-derived) prefix "Re:" that is commonly used to indicate human-generated ''responses'' ..." --[[User:Harvestman|DLL]] 17:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
: I've always heard it as "ray". Although I think the only place I've heard it is the [[Jeeves and Wooster]] TV series, "in re" being one of Wooster's typical phrases together with "right ho!". (I seriously recommend Wodehouse to anyone who loves the English language, BTW) --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 22:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
== Punjabi ==
What is the difference between Pakistani Punjabi language and Indian Punjabi language?
:See [[Punjabi language]]. There are many dialects of Punjabi, but these don't correspond to the India/Pakistan border. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 14:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
== Rules for syllable counting (in English) ==
What are the rules for counting syllables in English? Does a syllable necessarily contain a vowel (phoneme)?
In the examples below, how many syllables do you count?
* roster
* glide
* slack
* mirage
Based on some simple (simplistic?) rules I've seen, I got 2, 1, 1, and 2 respectively. The thing that I'm not sure about is in words like "slack", whether the whole word is one syllable or whether the "s" is in a separate syllable by itself.
--[[User:68.238.243.228|68.238.243.228]] 16:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:You do not need a vowel in an unstressed syllable in English. Any sonorant consonant will do, but there is a tendency to favor nasals as syllable nuclei over liquids. So, for instance ''Kevin'' and ''possum'' are more likely to be pronounced with a syllabic consonant than ''Michael'' or ''butter''. All these words will have vowels pronounced in careful pronunciations.
:As for your examples, you are correct except that in ''mirage'' the vowel can be deleated in rapid casual speech, and in that case there would be one syllable: [{{template:IPA|mɹɑʒ}}] in my pronunciation. As for the case of ''slack'', the pronunciation of an [[epenthesis|empenthetic vowel]] before the ''s'' is a feature of Spanish influenced learner English. [[user:mnewmanqc|mnewmanqc]]
:: (Hope you don't mind, I used <nowiki>{{template:IPA}}</nowiki> on your IPA). I think it's an interesting thing, this syllable counting. For example, even if I try to pronounce 'mirage' quickly and casually as Mnewmanqc's IPA indicates, I end up with what I would count as two syllables. m+schwa-rahj (with the 'j' indicating soft french ending. I'm no good at writing IPA). Maybe [[syllable]] has some guidelines, since I can't believe linguists would leave it subjective. [[User:Skittle|Skittle]] 16:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::: First off, I think Mnewmanqc has it backward: liquids are more likely to be syllabic than nasals. ''Michael'' is much more likely to be {{IPA|[ˈmaɪkl̩]}} than ''possum'' is to be {{IPA|[ˈpɑsm̩]}}, and ''butter'' is pretty much never {{IPA|[ˈbʌtəɹ]}} but rather {{IPA|[ˈbʌtɚ]}} (or {{IPA|[ˈbʌtə]}} in nonrhotic accents). Both ''l'' and ''n'' are pretty uniformly syllabic after other alveolar sounds though: {{IPA|[ˈbɑtəl]}} for ''bottle'' and {{IPA|[ˈbʌtən]}} for ''button'' sound distinctly odd. As for how to count syllables objectively (i.e. purely on the basis of some acoustic or articulatory property as opposed to an instinctive gut feeling), it's actually very difficult. Consider the difference between the name ''Bowie'' (as in [[David Bowie]], two syllables BOE-ee) and the word ''boy'' (one syllable). If you look at spectrograms of the two, you're going to have a very hard time telling them apart; whatever distinctions there are will be incredibly subtle. But every native speaker knows "instictively" ''Bowie'' is two syllables while ''boy'' has one. It's sad but true, the most reliable way of finding out how many syllables there are in a word is usually to ask a native speaker. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 17:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::::Perhaps Angr is right about liquids being at least equally likely to be syllable nuclei. I was going by what I think I read in a textbook I used Kreidler's ''Pronunciation of English. A Course Book in Phonology,'' I may be wrong in my memory, but the thing is I do both and have no intuitions there. If so, I apologize.
::::As for syllable structure, I think you might not look at the spectrogram but the waveform itself. I just did it myself using [http://www.praat.org Praat], and I saw two peaks much more clearly both in the intensity and visible waveform itself in Bowie than Boy. As for Mrage. I do get the complete reduction, but I'm from NYC, and I've done almost all my phonetic analyses of this kind of speech from NYers. I wouldn't be at all surprised that others have less than full reduction in this context. [mɹ] is not normally phonotactically permissible in careful English; so it may also not be in rapid casual speech for many speakers. [[user:mnewmanqc|mnewmanqc]]
:::::That's cool about the waveform. I have heard that clusters impermissible in careful speech are often permissible in rapid speech; the canonical example is {{IPA|[ˈpteɾo]}} for ''potato'' in two syllables. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 22:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
== EnglishLanguage - singular/plural ==
How many words in the English Language are the same in the singular as the plural (for example: sheep, fish)? - Jayuu
:Not sure how many, but "craft" (in the sense of a vessel) and "aircraft" are two more examples. --[[User:68.238.243.228|68.238.243.228]] 18:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:And "offspring" and "species" are yet two more examples. Is there a term for words like these?--[[User:68.238.243.228|68.238.243.228]] 18:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::Read the article on [[mass noun|mass nouns]]. You will see that forms like ''sheeps'' and ''fishes'' do exist.--[[User:El aprendelenguas|El aprendelenguas]] 19:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:::I'm not a native English speaker, but surely ''sheeps'' must be incorrect, whether it be used as a count or a mass noun? Google returns 19 hits for "several sheeps" and 29,300 for "several sheep". I did find one mention of ''sheeps'' on the [http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/19/newsid_4145000/4145501.stm BBC's web site] but still... --[[User:Vibo56|Vibo56]] 20:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::::I don't agree with the way sheeps was used in that BBC article, but the forms do exist, though rare. A good example would be "fishes of the coral reef". If you just say "fish of the coral reef", you are referring to the masses of fish in the reef, plain and simple. "fishes" puts the emphasis on the different types of fish, rather the fish (plural) of each species. It's a very vague difference and not all native speakers will use the words in that way. [[User:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="white" style="background:blue"> freshgavin</font>]][[User_talk:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="blue">ΓΛĿЌ </font>]] 16:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::Isn't this again an example of the distinction between [[count noun]]s and [[mass noun]]s, as mentioned by [[User:El aprendelenguas|El aprendelenguas]] above? "Fish" is mentioned on the [[mass noun]] page as an example of a word which confuses the distinction because both "fish" and "fishes" are acceptable plural forms. My point was that "two fish" or "two fishes" is a matter of personal preference, but there is no such thing as "two sheeps". --[[User:Vibo56|vibo56]] 21:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::It could be but I don't think so. If had a bunch of different breeds of sheep in a room, I think it would be correct to call them sheeps, but maybe that's just me. [[User:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="white" style="background:blue"> freshgavin</font>]][[User_talk:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="blue">ΓΛĿЌ </font>]] 13:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:I think you've uncovered a shocking gap in our coverage: [[List of English words with identical singular and plural forms]] does not exist. 'Deer' is another, by the way. There must be some reason why animals are disproportionately represented. Many words of foreign origin are (or can be) the same, though: yen, kimono, baht, etc. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 20:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::That's because they're from neuter nouns. Old English used to have lots of animal names that were neuter, and neuter singular and neuter plural looked the same. I can't remember the details, but I guess you can start some research of your own by looking at [[History of the English language]] and [[Old English language]]. --[[User:Kjoonlee|KJ]] 00:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:::I can't seem to find anything relevant on Wikipedia. Here are some links to get you started: [http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/research/rawl/IOE/index.html] [http://www.engl.virginia.edu/OE/OEA/index.html] --[[User:Kjoonlee|KJ]] 00:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:It is certainly complicated. For instance, ''cattle'' is a mass noun but unlike fish, you cannot have a cattle. In fact there is universally accepted no word representing one member of the species. On a related notes, I saw this in the [[mass noun]] article:
"Thus, the following are all correct:
:"There are sands in the hourglass." (count)
:"There is sand in the hourglass." (mass)
:"There is a sand in the hourglass." (count)"[[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] 00:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The second is certainly correct, the first could be correct if there were say black, white and green sands in the hourglass but I don't see how the third could ever be correct. [[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] 00:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::I think if I saw the 3rd sentence in an article, I would probably edit it to read either as the 2nd sentence or as "There is a grain of sand in the hourglass," depending on the context. --[[User:DavidGC|DavidGC]] 08:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:::It's ''possible''. I want to buy a type of sand for some purpose. I look at the ones you offer me, but I don't like them. I ask, "Do you have any other sands?" You say, "There is a sand in the hourglass". [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 09:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
= May 22 =
== What does this mean? ==
What does the word "Debauche" mean? I've looked it up on WP but to no avail. Help me. I hate words that aren't familiar.
:I think you mean 'debauch'- as a verb, 'seduce'; as a noun, 'orgy'. The spelling with an ''e'' seems to be unusual. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 08:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:The noun form is debauchery, isn't it? [[User:Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: black">СПУТНИК</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: maroon">ССС</span>]] [[Special:Emailuser/Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: maroon">Р</span>]]</sup> 15:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::Two different words: a debauch is one instance of debauchery. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|<sup>Flower</sup>]] 18:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:There's also "debouch": To emerge, issue". Generally from a small confined area into a wider, more open area. [[User:Zoe]]|[[User talk:Zoe|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
''Debauch'' as a transitive verb means to corrupt, to reduce the value of. See dictionary.com's [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=debauch page on the word]. The give the etymology as old French de+ ''bauch'' - apparently bauch is a sort of beam, so I take ''debauch'' to mean "to steer away from the straight and narrow". --[[User:Hughcharlesparker|Hughcharlesparker]] 19:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
== Film Review Format ==
Is there any specific film review format? What I can find from the web is about what can be include in a review, but this is not exactly what I want.
:When you write a film review for a magazine, newspaper or review web site, they will probably have a "house style" for you to follow. If you are writing an essay for school or for your own entertainment, you can write any format you wish. Wikipedia does not carry film reviews, if that was the question. [[User:Notinasnaid|Notinasnaid]] 13:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
This is a school assignment. In my rubric, there is a row which is called "genre format," so it is probably just about the style I write but not any specific format, is that right?
:I may be taking it out of context, but film genre is an important aspect of writing about a film (because the expectations and conventions that flow from the choice of genre). [[User:Notinasnaid|Notinasnaid]] 18:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
== I don't know Latin ==
How do you say "In spirit and in truth", "Way, Truth, Life" and "In the Light of the Lord" in Latin? I have looked up various dictionaries but there are just too many options they offer, and I don't know which ones are the best words to use! Thanks a lot!
: In my rough knowledge of Latin, I would guess that ''In anima et in vero'' would be "In spirit and in truth", "Way Truth and Life" would be ''Via, Verum, Vitaque'' (I particularly like the ring of that!) and "In the light of the Lord" would be ''In Luce Domini''. [[User:Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: black">СПУТНИК</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: maroon">ССС</span>]] [[Special:Emailuser/Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: maroon">Р</span>]]</sup> 15:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::If any of these are direct quotes from either the Bible or the traditional Catholic liturgy, it would be better to find the original Latin than to translate it back into Latin from English. And "truth" is Veritas, not Verum. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 15:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:Yeah, it sounds like they woudl be from the Catholic liturgy. And as for truth, the first word that popped into my head was veritas. I wrote that, but I wasn't sure, so I checked in my Latin textbook, and it gave verum instead. However, my textbook is rather unreliable and I assume that you are more correct. In that case, it would be ''Via, Veritas, Vitaque'', but would it be ''In anima et in veritate"? [[User:Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: black">СПУТНИК</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: maroon">ССС</span>]] [[Special:Emailuser/Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: maroon">Р</span>]]</sup> 15:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::Okay, "in spirit and in truth" is from John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth", which is ''Spiritus est Deus et eos qui adorant eum in spiritu et veritate oportet adorare'' in the [[Vulgate]]. "Way, truth, life" is from John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life", which is ''Ego sum via et veritas et vita''. "In the light of the Lord" is from Isaiah 2:5 "O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD", which is ''Domus Iacob venite et ambulemus in lumine Domini''. So, the answers are:
::*In spirit and in truth = In spiritu et veritate
::*Way, Truth, Life = Via et veritas et vita
::*In the light of the Lord = In lumine Domini
::[[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 17:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:I was close. [[User:Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: black">СПУТНИК</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: maroon">ССС</span>]] [[Special:Emailuser/Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: maroon">Р</span>]]</sup> 18:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you guys a whole bunch! This really helps me a lot :)
== U.S. piano tuner strikes chord against embargo, doctors instruments in Cuba ==
'Strike chord' or 'Strike a chord have been used often to discribe being touched by something, correct? What is the imterpretation of the subject/headline in layman's term?
SY
:It's a [[pun]]. "Strike a chord" is an [[idiom]] that means something like "make a point". It's a pun because "strike a chord" literally means to play a [[chord (music)|chord]], for example on a piano, which makes sense because it's a piano tuner. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] 18:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::The odd thing is that the idiom "to strike a chord" means something more like "to cause a feeling of familiarity." The writer of the headline seems to have conflated "strike a chord" with "strike a blow [for freedom]," for which Google reports 11,000 results. Thus, my interpretation, as a layman, is that the headline writer needs a good editor. --[[User:LarryMac|LarryMac]] 20:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::(Edit conflict)<font size="1">I thought 'strike a chord' idiomatically meant something more like 'seems true to the other person/is in accord with their feelings' than 'make a point'. So The Matrix 'struck a chord' with people who felt there had to be more to the world. But I'm guessing it is used in Keenan Pepper's sense, in America, hence perhaps SY's confusion. Sounds very odd to me. [[User:Skittle|Skittle]] 20:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC) </font> Reading LarryMac's comment, maybe it is just as wrong as it feels. [[User:Skittle|Skittle]] 20:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:*"To strike a chord" is a [[musical]] [[metaphor]] suggesting a somewhat sudden, harmonious, and pleasing connection or resolution. --[[User:Halcatalyst|Halcatalyst]] 22:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::[http://www.thefreedictionary.com/strike%20a%20chord Here's] a reference, not that distinguished IMHO. --[[User:Halcatalyst|Halcatalyst]] 22:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
== Voice Jitter and Shimer ==
Hello,
In the Praat program for Audio/Voice analysis they use Jitter and Shimer to describe pulses in the Voice.
Is it a standard experssion?
since I didn't found any reference outside.
What is the meaning of high or low jitter and shimer?
In the sense of what causes it? what is it reflecting?
Thanks,
Mushin
:*Here's a technical [http://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/praat/manual/Voice.html tutorial] reference. "Jitter" and "shimmer" are also everyday English words. --[[User:Halcatalyst|Halcatalyst]] 21:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
== October ==
If the prefix "octo-" means eight, then why is october the 10th month of the year?[[User:24.107.18.136|24.107.18.136]] 20:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:Check out our article on [[October]] - the answer's in the third paragraph. [[User:Bewildebeast|Matt Eason]] 20:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
== Reading Quotations ==
#Iranian President [[Ahmadinejad]] said quote the Iranian nation doesn’t give a damn about such useless [U.N.] resolutions unquote.
#Iranian President Ahmadinejad said quote-unquote the Iranian nation doesn’t give a damn about such useless [U.N.] resolutions. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12851815/page/2/
Which one is preferable in American English when a person is speaking, quote "..." unquote or quote-unquote "...?"
[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 20:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:None. ''Iranian President [[Ahmadinejad]] said quote the Iranian nation doesn’t give a damn about such useless [U.N.] resolutions.'' (Slightly lengthened pause). Otherwise, the first is less objectionable. --[[User:Diderot|Diderot]] 21:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::If I wanted to immediately proffer my opinion without pausing before another person in a discussion interjects, then it would be permissible for me to say ''unquote'', right?[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]]
:::*What might be called a ''someone-said'' statement can be followed with the expression "quote unquote" for emphasis (often uttered semi-belligerently, so with no fine touch for accuracy of quotation!). --[[User:Halcatalyst|Halcatalyst]] 21:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
== 'Racism' Inside a Race ==
Is there a word for someone who favors one ethnic group over another? For instance, if a [[Hutu]] discriminates against a [[Tutsi]] or if a [[Japanese]] discriminates against a [[Korean]]. I can only come up with the word ''racist'', but here the discrimination is inside the race.
I know that there is no ''ethnicist''; is there another single word?[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 20:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:I routinely use ''ethnocentric'' when referring to such behaviour. --[[User:Diderot|Diderot]] 21:04, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:Maybe [http://www.reference.com/search?db=web&q=ethnophobe ''ethnophobe'']? --[[User:Halcatalyst|Halcatalyst]] 21:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:Race is such a slippery term that ''racist'' applies perfectly well. [[User:EdC|EdC]] 23:20, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::Or, you could go even broader and just call them a 'bigot'. [[User:Black Carrot|Black Carrot]] 02:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:::Or, since "race" doesn't have a scientific meaning, just call them racist. I accuse my West German husband of being a racist when he makes derogatory remarks about East Germans. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 07:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
= May 23 =
== Sentence Challenge ==
In a coffee break at work, my colleagues and I debated the possibility of coming up with a valid English sentence of at least <s>four</s> '''seven''' words, where every word has exactly 9 letters. Can this be done? A barnstar (or maybe a brainstar) for the longest sentence. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 02:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
How about "Everybody considers elephants necessary"? Does it have to make sense logically or just grammatically? This shouldn't be too difficult, you just won't be able to use any of the most frequently used Germanic-based words. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] 02:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:Ideally it would be a sentence that nobody would take any exception to at all. But we don't live in an ideal world, so ..... (not sure if that answers your question or not). [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 03:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Extending that, "Everybody considers Ukrainian elephants necessary." Or "Everybody considers Ukrainian elephants necessary drawbacks." Although, that last one's stretching it, there should really be a "to be" in there. [[User:Black Carrot|Black Carrot]] 02:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:No, that's fine, Black Carrot. I wouldn't have let "consider to be" through. I consider it a tautology. :--) You're the leader at the moment. Or you would be, if I hadn't taken the view that four words (and even six words) was too easy, and hadn't retrospectively raised the minimum number of words to '''seven'''. (Such is the magic of Wikipedia). [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 03:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::Let's make it <strike>nine</strike>'''ten'''. "Virtually everybody available privately considers untrained Ukrainian elephants necessary drawbacks." I'm not sure it can get any longer without stacking adjectives... —[[User:Zero Gravitas|Zero Gravi]]'''[[User_talk:Zero Gravitas|t]]'''[[User:Zero Gravitas|as]] 04:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Hah! "Virtually everybody available helpfully considers verbosely formatted sentences, tautology following tautology, validates immediate deletions forthwith." That's 15! [[User:Proto|<span style="text-decoration:none"><span style="text-underline:none"><font color="#007700">Proto</font></span></span>]]<font color="#555555"><b>||</b></font><small>[[User_talk:Proto|<span style="text-decoration:none"><span style="text-underline:none"><font color="#007700">type</font></span></span>]]</small> 12:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:Excellent. Impressed. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 12:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::Ah, but 'sentence'''s'''' requires 'validate', making it too short. Sadly, as it is a wonderous creation. [[User:Skittle|Skittle]] 17:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:::* Condoleez' consider'd hammering Uzbek'stan ? (4*9) --[[User:Harvestman|DLL]] 18:53, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
== verb form of "Wikipedia" ==
What is the verb form of "Wikipedia," if there is an accepted or prevailing form? Aside from contributing to the decay of the English language, a verb would be of great convenience. I would no longer have to say, "I want to look up an article on [topic] in the Wikipedia," simply, "I want to [verb] [topic]."
:I use the word ''wikipedia'' itslef, as in "I'm going to wikipedia English verbs." This construction is analogous to Google's, as in "He googled a famous celebrity," which is now more established or accepted.--[[User:El aprendelenguas|El aprendelenguas]] 02:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::Definitely. When in doubt, wikipedia it. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] 03:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:::One thing I have always liked about English is that it sounds better the more originally you use it. That's why I "hit the 'pedia", "WP it up", or maybe even "give it a wik'" if I'm in high spirits. [[User:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="white" style="background:blue"> freshgavin</font>]][[User_talk:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="blue">ΓΛĿЌ </font>]] 13:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
== [[Detroit, Michigan]] - using IPA ==
I recently was told that the [[International Phonetic Alphabet|IPA]] spelling for Detroit is off. However, I am not sure exactly what it should be and would appreciate some feedback on this. [[User:Pentawing|Pentawing]]<sup>[[User_talk:Pentawing|Talk]]</sup> 04:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:What specifically do they say is wrong? I'd say it's fine. Of course, pronunciations vary. For example (depending perhaps on my mood, setting, surrounding words, who knows?), I myself use |i| and |ə| interchangeable for the e (maybe even |ʌ| on occasion and |e| in a "Frenchish" setting but speaking English). -[[user:rasd]]
::The message concerning the IPA spelling was left at [[Wikipedia:Peer_review#Detroit, Michigan]]. [[User:Pentawing|Pentawing]]<sup>[[User_talk:Pentawing|Talk]]</sup> 22:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
== x ==
What does /x\ mean or stand for? I have searched wiki and google and have only come up with unrelated results.
:{{IPA|/x/}}? Do you mean [[voiceless velar fricative]]? --[[User:Kjoonlee|KJ]] 06:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:It could be a [[smiley face]]. Looks to me like a smiley face expressing grief, not unlike >_<. [[User:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="white" style="background:blue"> freshgavin</font>]][[User_talk:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="blue">ΓΛĿЌ </font>]] 13:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::A guy goes to a psychiatrist and says, "Ya gotta help me, doc. I keep dreaming about teepees and wigwams. It's driving me crazy." "Take two of these," the shrink replies. "You're two tents."
::So, with the right font, maybe /x\ is a smiley for ''tense''? --[[User:Halcatalyst|Halcatalyst]] 15:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
== The trend of Japanese writing ==
When I visited Japan recently, I was astonished by the prevalence of the use of Katakana which replaced a lot of Hiragana or Kanji.
I wonder where can I find official or academic survey about this phenomenon.
:"Replaced" is a little bit presumptuous, the official spelling will probably never change. There is a misunderstanding about [[katakana]] that it is ''only'' used to signify borrowed words. Katakana has also been used historically in a manner similar to italics in English. Though it is true that katakana ''are'' often used for style (いいネ！) as opposed to italic emphasis (スゴイ！), it would be extremely difficult to determine which case is which, so I doubt there's any possibility of finding any academic papers on the topic. I have seen a few papers on popular writing style though, so there might be some information about katakana use there. Another thing to remember is that animal names are almost always written in katakana (カエル, イルカ) and this is standard style. Kanji for animal names are generally quite complex (キリン, giraffe, is 麒麟) and as most of them come direct from Chinese, while the words themselves generally don't, it's difficult for Japanese people to remember which kanji to use, so it's understandable that they are rarely used anymore (though names like 海豚, meaning "sea pig", or dolphin, are popular for quiz shows). [[User:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="white" style="background:blue"> freshgavin</font>]][[User_talk:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="blue">ΓΛĿЌ </font>]] 13:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
== origin of a phrase ==
Hi everyone
What does 'to lose one's thread mean literally and what is the origin of the phrase. Thank you v much.
:"To lose the thread" means to cease following (or understanding) how different parts of a story or argument are connected. I think the origin is the myth of [[Theseus#Ariadne_and_the_Minotaur|Ariadne, Theseus and the Minotaur]]. [[User:David Sneek|David Sneek]] 10:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:Good ol' Theseus did not lose his. It could be, more flatly, a weaver's fault. You have to find the thread and make a knot''t'' and roll it back in the shuttle. Or a spinster's ? --[[User:Harvestman|DLL]] 18:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
== holus bolus ==
I am trying to find the correct spelling for "holus bolus", as well as, the original language, and, the English translation. It seems to be a less popular phrase these days.[[User:70.27.185.36|70.27.185.36]] 13:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:Probably unrelated, but I can't stop thinkin [[hocus pocus]]. [[User:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="white" style="background:blue"> freshofftheufo</font>]][[User_talk:Freshgavin|<font size="-2" color="blue">ΓΛĿЌ </font>]] 15:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:I'm skeptical that this was intended to have any very definite meaning, but in Latin "holus" is a vegetable and "bolus" a throw, while in early modern English a "bolus" was a pill. [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 16:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::"bolus" is still a pill in medical circles. [[User:Zoe]]|[[User talk:Zoe|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::What does it mean anyway? [[User:Jameswilson|Jameswilson]] 22:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
== Backwards story ==
What is the name for a story which begins with the ending, and then travels backwards in order to show how the events shown happened? <font style="color:#FF7000">'''s'''murrayinchester<sup>([[User:Smurrayinchester|User]]), ([[User talk:Smurrayinchester|Talk]])</sup></font> 14:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:You mean like ''[[Memento (film)|Memento]]''? The only term I can think of is "confusing". The article on ''Memento'', though links to [[Reverse chronology]]. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 14:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
==Correct pronunciation==
I've heard [[umami]] pronounced several ways. Who knows? --[[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 17:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:If you're Japanese, then {{IPA|/umami/}}. --[[User:Kjoonlee|KJ]] 17:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::Not quite, Japanese "u" is unrounded: {{IPA|[ɯmami]}}. —[[User:Zero Gravitas|Zero Gravi]]'''[[User_talk:Zero Gravitas|t]]'''[[User:Zero Gravitas|as]] 18:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:::Could you explain as "sounds like" or "rhymes with" -- thanks. --[[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 18:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::::Is [http://register.yourdictionary.com/wotd_sounds/umami.wav this] correct? --[[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 19:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
== A word to describe... ==
Is there a word that is used to describe a word which describes itself. I cant think of any examples but say, for example:
the meaning of the word" elaplozaba" is simply "elaplozaba"
Heh, I know it sounds like a silly question but yes.
Thank you
:[[self-referential]]? --[[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 21:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:The word ''pentasyllabic'' is self-descriptive because it means "having five syllables" and it has five syllables. I don't know what ''elaplozaba'' means (or even what language it is) so I don't know if you're talking about the same thing. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] 21:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::How about [[autological]]. Also take a look at [[List of autological words]]. --[[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 22:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
== Question: Word/phrase meaning "it proves itself" ==
I am trying to find a word/phrase that means something that proves itself... Such as the fact that such and such exists is proof enough of its right to exist. It's not syllogism, or Q.E.D. but something in that ballpark. Thank you for any help.
:I don't understand what you mean. It's logically invalid ([[begging the question]]) to assume the thing you're trying to prove. "Right to exist" isn't a mathematical or logical concept. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] 23:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
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