Talk:Perverted-Justice: Difference between revisions

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==Website Link Redirect==

*[[Talk:Perverted-Justice.com/Archive 1]]: December 2004 – January 31 2005

Just a heads up, Perverted Justice is redirecting the homepage link to a page on their site that blasts Wikipedia. [[User:Kschap|Kschap]] ([[User talk:Kschap|talk]]) 07:10, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

*[[Talk:Perverted-Justice.com/Archive 2]]: February 2005 – April 03, 2005

*[[Talk:Perverted-Justice.com/Archive 3]]: May 2005

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

== Journalism ==

I have just modified 3 external links on [[Perverted-Justice]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=799622719 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:

I don't know if it's entirely germane to this article, but a newspaper recently caught Spokane mayor [[James E. West]] in a chatroom using many of the same techniques as PeeJ. They had a reporter pretend to be a 17/18-year old, got phone numbers for confirmation, set up an encounter, took photographs, then splashed the whole thing on their front page, including transcripts. The matter is now being investigated by state police. This is just for your information, as I don't see how to make an NPOV connection. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:10, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120206230430/http://www.ethicsscoreboard.com/list/dateline.html to http://www.ethicsscoreboard.com/list/dateline.html

*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.petaluma360.com/article/20100113/COMMUNITY/100119800/1362?p=2&tc=pg

*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.roanoke.com/webmin/news/online-group-involved-in-man-s-arrest/article_575ecf6d-77ab-5c29-8138-670fab7f2220.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

:Off-topic - The oldest we portray is 15. I wish they would have used more of our techniques, including a younger age. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 00:14, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

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::::Why do you wish they had used a younger age for the kid? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:59, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

:::::My opinion: If you use something that is 17/18, that is getting very close to being not a pedophile at all. In some states, being 17 is the legal age. If you use a 13 year old, you will generally get more of a police response there. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 01:01, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

::::::Exactly. It is my belief that he would jumped at a 14/15 year old as readily as a 17/18 year old. C'est la vie. Oh well. [[User:67.169.194.181|67.169.194.181]] 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 20:52, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

::Just like with any website/crime/trend, there will always be copycats or people trying to use the methods PeeJ uses to find/catch/out people. If this is more things like this show up online and in the news, then we can fork the article to list PeeJ "style" copycat busts. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 00:19, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

== NamingExternal nameslinks modified ==

I notice that names of the critics of PeeJ were added in the same edit as [[user:XavierVE]] removed the real name of the website's founder. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perverted-Justice.com&diff=prev&oldid=9201265] This asymetrical outing does not appear NPOV to me. If we decide that the real name of the website's founder should not be revealed, then I think that we should also delete the names of the critics as well. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:16, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

:Agreed. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 01:25, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

::I went ahead and removed them from the list. I kept the websites and organizations, but deleted the names attached to them. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 01:29, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

:::Some of the organizations are nothing more than the opinion of one person (Chatmag.com being a good example of this), hence the editing. It's pretty intellectually dishonest to call yourself an "organization" when you're just one guy. Oh, for the record, the filter has been removed at this point, since the piece is finally NPOV. Obviously there are about twenty things I'd change/add to it, but so long as it is NPOV, great! [[User:67.169.194.181|67.169.194.181]] 01:44, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

::::::::Just so you know, I'll be continuing with the re-write; so far, I've worked only on the intro, and trying to find a structure. So if you want to make your suggestions for things to add/delete, please go ahead. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 02:02, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

I have just modified one external link on [[Perverted-Justice]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/815621443|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:

:::::::::Two areas I would change. First, the overlinking of the Chatmag stuff. That's the opinion of one guy, and it's not credible. See the latest missive he wrote about the Spokane Mayor. This guy doesn't want anyone nailed in chat-rooms. Calling his personal website an "organization" is a misnomer. It's no more an organization than my personal blogger. Secondly, the external links are all screwed up and create a false impression. Because just about each negative article is linked, it appears that media is "split" on what we do. However, if you look at the total sum of articles about us (or TV reports, etc), most are positive or report on arrests and convictions. A major effort of the proxy editors is to link as much negative as possible to create a sense that PeeJ is more controversial than it really is, and mislabeled external links (such as the one to Chatmag, which is again, a personal opinion website of one guy) don't help. If you look at the version we were reverting to, we put the links in two categories, in favor of and against. That gives a new person reading it a road-map to quickly find the information they seek, be it in favor of what we do, or against.

*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051204200329/http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/2875630/detail.html to http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/2875630/detail.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

:::::::::Additionally, the external links provided in the "other" version included relevant information on stories talking about arrests, convictions and about the site in general. Those are continually removed and one Wikipedian called them "redundant." I counter that links to those stories are no more redundant than linking to Chatmag, CJ.com and AVSO, which feature content they spread around to one another. CJ.com and AVSO are virtually indistinguishable since their membership are mostly the same 10 people with different names. When sources such as the Salt Lake City Weekly piece and the KIRO piece are removed and old articles such as the Phoenix New Times are left in, it creates, again, a false impression. I also think our FAQ is a much better link than our mainpage, and should be included somewhere. Lastly on the additions front, we are far more proud of helping to locate an abducted and severely abused 14 year old than we are of the convictions. An exclusion of that occurrence when speaking about site accomplishments is without any clear-thinking rationale or merit. There could be no better end result to our endeavors possible.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

:::::::::Still, I restate. I really don't care what NPOV people put in the piece so long as it remains in the spirit of the 'Pedia. Where we get uppity as hell is when proxied users or non-NPOV people start editing the piece to reflect their own viewpoint. You can leave the External Links and the Chatmag stuff how it is, and we won't touch it. Believe that. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 06:56, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 23:57, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

::::::::::Ok Xavier, thanks. I haven't gotten round to looking at external links yet, but intend to tonight or tomorrow. I was also a little unsure about chatmag.com, and so I'm going to read through it and see how many people are involved. If it's basically just a personal website, we probably shouldn't mention it. I'm going to create a separate references section, and that will contain references to articles used as source material. And then a further reading section for interesting material not used as a source. Those two sections will replace external links. I'll also look at the other disputed version, and see what's in there. Thanks again, [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 07:01, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

== Is this group still active? ==

:::::::::::XVE, can you explain what you mean by "proxied users"? Do you mean registered users? Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:08, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

It looks like they haven't done anything since 2016, and Wikisposure no longer exists. Should the article be changed to reflect this? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/97.118.61.46|97.118.61.46]] ([[User talk:97.118.61.46#top|talk]]) 21:52, 1 June 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::::::::::::People who use Proxies to mask their true IP. If you check out the history of the edits to the article, you'll see basically a war of editing by proxied users. Half of these users were our people, half were people from AVSO/CJ.com. I do not mean registered users. [[User:67.169.194.181|67.169.194.181]] 09:50, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

== "Perverted-Justice.com/MediaRevision" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==

[[File:Information.svg|30px]]

::::::::::::Xavier, I'ved created the References and Further reading sections, and added your FAQ to the latter. I took a look at chatmag.com and they seem, at first glance, to be a legitimate organization, giving the name and address of the publisher, and advertising for sales staff. I haven't look at the other anti-vigilante group yet. Regarding the abduction story, the only reference I could find to it in the old version of the page was to a dead link from katu.com, though I may not have looked at the right version. If you can supply a link to the story (the more credible and mainstream the source, the better), that would be helpful, then we can edit it back in. Many thanks, [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 08:25, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect [[:Perverted-Justice.com/MediaRevision]]. The discussion will occur at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 19#Perverted-Justice.com/MediaRevision]] until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Steel1943|<span style="color: #2F4F4F;">'''''Steel1943'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:Steel1943|talk]]) 01:51, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

:::::::::::::KATU.com no longer indexes the piece, must have happened recently. No matter, there are many other links: http://www.komo4.com/stories/33053.htm - being one. The recovery was also featured on an episode of the Montel Williams show. Ref: http://www.montelshow.com/show/past_detail_0_3_2005.htm - Rather annoyed the KATU piece is no longer indexed, it was very, very good. As for Chatmag, we've glanced more than a few times. One guy, once you get past the smoke and mirrors. Regardless, 'tis a minor point. [[User:67.169.194.181|67.169.194.181]] 09:50, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

* Phillip Eide's (Xavier Von Erck's) identity was discovered via an old Yahoo profile for "AngryGermanxxx" on which he'd left his real name. The profile had been created years ago, back before he was aware of just how easy it is to collect personal info from the web (and before he knew he'd likely become a vigilante whose ID info would be sought by attorneys). He'd forgotten about it. It took many months of searching, but in searching various variations of his known screen names, that old, forgotten profile showed up with a real name listed.

Just as an aside, the story about how his name was *confirmed* is quite interesting...

After the profile was discovered, just as a means to get an initial confirmation that this was likely his profile, we created a fake hotmail account and using it and a proxy, we e-mailed Eide at his admin@pj account. In the e-mail, we simply said "Hey, were you aware that this exists? ... A friend..." and included a link to the URL of his profile.

Within 2 hours of sending the e-mail, the profile was deleted by its owner. *Bingo* - We had confirmation that it was his profile (the profile had remained there undisturbed for more than 4 years then within 2 hours of receiving the mail it dissapeared - Coincidence? I think not...), and secondarily, we had a fairly good indication that he didn't want that profile info visible, somewhat confirming that his real name was in fact showing. (Why bother to delete the profile immediately if it could be used to throw us OFF the scent with false information?)

Now that we had a potential name, we needed something a little more concrete to tie it to Xavier. So... we paid for an Intellius search. Intellius turned up his current address, the names of all the people reportedly living at that address (including a "Nicholas Wilkins" - his room-mate - Also known as Pheobus Apollo") , his birthdate (which matched a 2 year old "Happy Birthday Xavier" message posted on PJ by one of his not-so-bright lackeys) plus all his previous addresses along with all the people living at those addresses.

The *confirmed* sticker came when it was discovered that at one of his previous addresses, he resided with a number of people with the last name "Erck". (Hence his online moniker "Xavier Von Erck"). In german, "Von" translates to "from"... "Xavier from the family of Erck").

[[User:Jeffpw|Jeffpw]] 17:05, 23 May 2005 (UTC) 19:05, 23 May, 2005

***Is there a way we can see this Intellius search? [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 17:26, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

::::Basically, we are trying to remain NPOV by removing the names. If we do not allow people to post Von Erck's real name in here, then we should do the same for the opposition's names. That was why I kept the websites name's up. We mainly keep Von Erck's real name off since we do not know what his real name is. Though, if the opposition does name themselves, they can do so on their own website at their own risk. We will just not list them here. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 01:49, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

:::::Well put. In the case of Chatmag.com, I do not see the name of the author in any obvious ___location, so it is apparent that they are not divulging it, as PeeJ does not divulge the identities of its participants. Anyway, I'm glad that the article is more satisfactory. Thanks to all the editors who have contributed. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:59, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

::::::I also changed the references at the bottom to remove the comment about the filter. I thank PeeJ for removing the filter and now, let's celebrate. [[Champaign]] anyone? [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 02:00, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

:Its been claimed that Mr Eide has legally changed his name to Xavier Von Erck, which appears to be substantiated by the final link in the refs. PJ-critical sites suggest the image of his drivers licence was digitally manipulated, and upon my own inspection, it certainly doesn't look unquestionable. You'd think the guy could take a better picture or scan, especially since the whole goal of posting it appears to be proving his name to people critical of his pseudonymity without any further doubt. Regardless, and to fit with conventions, it may still be appropriate to add a (born Philip John Eide) to this entry or a future entry for [[Xavier Von Erck]]. I'd make the aforementioned reference a general "numbered" ref attached to the first instance of his name, but I don't think the matter of his name has been settled for factual accuracy or the interest of people who view this entry. [[User:68.170.210.215|68.170.210.215]] 01:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

== Looks much better ==

Wow, looking great. I have a deadline, dinner and go to bed and look at what y'all do in my absence! Big kudos to all. But I don't think we as a whole can stop being vigilant -- I just reverted an anon's addition of <nowiki>{{totallydisputed}}</nowiki> and copy and pasting an old version into the current version. We still have to watch for hit and runs with an axe to grind, and maybe try to bring them into the debate on this page instead of edit warring. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 14:39, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

:I will keep it on my watchlist. I still think Slim wanted to do some changes to it. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 15:59, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

::Yeah, there are still quite a few commented questions. But it's looking much better. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 16:18, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

:::Hi Katefan, thanks for your edits. I agree about the chatmag.com reference not being necessary, though I'd like to keep a link to them in the further-reading section if that's okay with everyone, but I'm less certain of the "anti-vigilante special operations" link, as it seems to be a personal website.

:::About the addition to the intro, that ABC has verified five of the convictions: that was in January, so they wouldn't have verified five out of 12, and from memory their piece didn't say they were unable to verify the others, but simply that they had verified five. It's possible (and, in fact, likely) that these were the only ones they tried to verify, because if they had found unverifiable examples, they'd probably have said so. The link to the convictions on the PeeJ website seems to indicate that they're genuine, though I haven't looked through every single one, but haven't yet found one that seems dubious. Do you have concerns about some of them? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 20:59, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

::::I don't have a problem keeping chatmag in the links; haven't visited the other site so I'll stay neutral for now. That's true, I wouldn't want it to appear as if the others were "unverified." That should be cleared up. Add something like, at the time of the article, PeeJ had claimed 5 convictions and that all were verified. Personally, I don't have any serious doubts about the rest of them, mostly becuase at least some of them -- really almost half -- were verified by a reputable news outlet. But if there had been no such information available, I would've felt queasier about inclusion. As it is, though, with almost half of them being proven out, I don't have any qualms about going on PJ's claims for the rest. That reference should probably be clarified though. I'll do that in a sec. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 21:20, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

:::::I've made the ABC edit in the intro invisible until we figure out how to phrase it; I'm wondering whether it's even necessary, though I haven't yet checked all the convictions to see whether every one is referenced. I'll do that now. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 23:24, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

::::::I wouldn't object to making it invisible. It's enough that us editors who are working on the article are aware that the information exists in the article itself; since it's linked in the references section, that'd probably be enough. I'll leave it to your discretion, but I wouldn't mind either way. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 14:41, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

==Update==

I've re-added the child abduction case (a reference to it in the intro, and more details in the convictions section), as it seems clear that it was Von Eck who located her and may have saved her life. Detectives admitted to a local newspaper that they didn't have the knowledge or resources to find the girl via her computer, so it's an important case in the official v unofficial law enforcement debate. I also re-added the NBC/PeeJ sting in New York because it's well-referenced, and there's a video available (though I couldn't get it to load so I haven't watched it). I've removed the chatmag.com quote as I agree with Katefan that it's not necessary now that she's found a much better one, but the link to the chatmag article remains in the further reading section. I removed the AVSO anti-vigilante link as that one does seem to be a little dodgy. I've also added a few more references. Xavier, a question: do you write your name von Erck or Von Erck? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 23:20, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

:I removed "controversial" from the first sentence, as it's true, but it's also a POV term; as it stands, the first paragraph has no POV terms in it, that I can see. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 00:48, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

*An anon user re-added the AVSO link; I removed it. After looking at the Website, it mostly seems to be a collection of screed-y rants with a few links to corrupted-justice.com. To me, it doesn't rise much above the level of a blog, and probably shouldn't be included. It appears that SV agrees with me, how about other folks? I've asked the anon on his userpage to come discuss the matter. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 16:04, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

== intro not accurate ==

Your intro as it stands is not accurate. PJ has used minors as "contributers" in the past. Satine was 16 when she started "busting" people for PJ, and Phillip Eide knew it. There is ample evidence documenting this at www.corrupted-justice.com. Read the main page updays, and scroll down to March 3rd to read it for yourself. There are also many minors currently involved as Follow Up volunteers on the PJ site, in spite of the fact that there are many easily accessible pictures of naked men on their site. Again, read about it at Corrupted-Justice. [[User:81.59.16.106]]

:Could you sign your posts please? See [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages]]. Thanks for the information about the minors. I'll take a look at the information later, though bear in mind that we can only publish material that has already been published by a reliable source. See [[Wikipedia:No original research]].

:Also, to the anon IPs who keep reverting, your reversions constitute vandalism, and if it continues, I'll ask for the page to be protected on the NPOV version, then none of us will be able to edit it, so please stop. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 12:08, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

*Perhaps there is some way to incorporate this into the criticisms section. We mention other criticisms that corrupted-justice.com makes in the text of the article, so I don't see why this one wouldn't also at least merit a mention. It could even be something as simple as: "Corrupted-Justice.com also charges that PeeJ in the past has not properly vetted its volunteers, including possibly allowing underage contributors who have access to PeeJ's archives of pornographic photos." Rough draft. (Has PeeJ responded to this criticism?) &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 14:45, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

**I would probably redo the part where it discusses the vigalante nature of the site. I would say "Some websites, such was Corrupted-Jusitce.com, charges that PeeJ enganges in activites that can be deemed vigilantism." I know it makes zero English grammar sense, but I hope something like that can work. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 14:54, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

::A question for the anon: how does Corrupted Justice know that the first volunteer mentioned in the CJ March 3 update was born on July 16, 1985? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 15:12, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

*Corrupted-Justice did an extensive investigation into many of the contributers, including reading their online journals. The journals for Satine, the minor contributer, gave that as her birthdate. Since it is her own journal, I would think that info would have to be accepted as accurate. Perverted-Justice has been confronted with this evidence, but has chosen not to respond.

::Hi, I'm the lead tech of Perverted Justice, Phoebus Apollo. I've known Xavier well over a year prior to the whole project beginning. I have a few comments to add. First off, we at PeeJ have addressed this claim multiple times and refuted it, just because there is no huge front page update with a link to these people's website doesn't mean it remains "unchallenged". The articles cited by CJ.com are dated PRIOR to the very existance of Perverted-Justice.com, there were no contributors at the time, as there was no website before July 4th, 2002 (anything dated prior to that is simply fake, or had an incorrect date to begin with). Keep in mind also that this version of PeeJ was merely a subsite on AngryGerman.com, and was not a real website of it's own, the "real" Perverted-Justice.com (the one you see today) was founded a year later in 2003, around the time we started bringing on more contributors. I also remind you that the only contributor on board when the site started that July in 2002 was Frank Fencepost, co-founder, who was the sole contributor for a long period of time. To the best of my knowledge, Satine started not long prior to this article, I believe it was done merely a month or so after she started with PeeJ. The article clearly says she was 18 at the time and also a sophmore (second year) college student. The article is critical of our early website, feel free to add it to "further reading" that seems to contain similar criticisms.

::http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/09/15/perverted_justice/index_np.html

::The POV by the CJ.com source in question regarding the Satine/Xavier controversy is that Xavier (and in some variations of the story, even myself) molested Satine while she was 14-15, then primped her to do his evil bidding by talking to perverts, which they claim is the origin for Perverted-Justice.com (not acknowledging that Xavier didn't know Satine when she was brought on as Satine was merely a friend of co-founder Frank Fencepost). I know Xavier personally and will attest that he never met Satine in person until the year 2004, I was present and so was Satine's boyfriend. Satine will confirm this if you decide to contact her.

::I would also recommend reading Xavier's reply below. (we are roommates and do share the same IP, I have registered this username to prevent confusion) [[User:PhoebusApolloX|PhoebusApolloX]] 19:11, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

There are other self-acknowledged minors who participate or have participated in Follow Up at Perverted-Justice, including but not limited to sexually explicit chats online with "busts". Evidence of this, taken directly from the Perverted-Justice forums, can be supplied simply by contacting Corrupted-Justice, which has been collecting evidence for the ongoing FBI investigation of Perverted-Justice. [[User:Jeffpw]]

:I can easily type something in an online journal and if there were not other things to contradict it, people will accept it as fact. There are no way that anyone can be certain for doing age checks, especially online. Plus, if the FBI was looking into PeeJ, we would have heard something by now. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 16:26, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

::Hi Jeff, could you ''please'' sign and date your posts. You can do this by typing four tildes after your post like this <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. We need sigs and dates for clarity now and for archiving purposes later.

::Regarding Satine, could you post a link please to her online journal? And do you have any links to evidence regarding the existence of an ongoing FBI investigation into PeeJ? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 16:31, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

:::Plus, the FBI would not be leaking stuff to anyone about pending investigations anyways. The FBI link can be seen at http://www.chatmag.com/help/17022004_pj.html, but I cannot find anything that is from an outside source. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 16:37, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

::::http://www.tvbarn.com/archives/019047.html, a comment from an FBI spokesman, Jeff Lanza: "FBI spokesman Jeff Lanza said perverted-justice.com was, at best, &#8220;a temporary solution&#8221; to a growing problem. &#8220;A permanent solution is to put people in jail,&#8221; Lanza said. &#8220;If you just embarrass them, they can move to another city.&#8221;" Also, this is the search that I used: http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Perverted+Justice+FBI&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&b=21. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 16:41, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

::Just to address this claim, the Follow Up forum is a public forum, anyone can sign up for it and post. We do not do extensive screening of the public posters there, but if you produce names of users who are indeed underage, we will talk to moderators to have those users asked to stop participating in the Follow Up forum community, as our rules clearly state we have no need for minors. I apologize that I cannot do this kind of policing personally, the forums are simply too massive for me to personally administrate. [[User:PhoebusApolloX|PhoebusApolloX]] 19:11, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

:Scott Murrow of CJ can give you scren shots and downloads of Satine's journal. After it was discovered and posted at CJ it was deleted by her.

Regarding the FBI investigation, I do not think there are any online links to evidence regarding this, except what has been posted at CJ. Once again, CJ admin ( [e-mail] )can supply you with further info. I can tell you that I gave a statement and supplied evidence to the FBI in November of last year, and I know several other people have been cooperating with them as well, for violations including unauthorized use of driver's lisence info and social security numbers. Hope I signed this right--I am new to this [[User:Jeffpw|Jeffpw]] 16:46, 20 May 2005 (UTC)16:46, 20 May, 2005

*Jeff, you've got it right. Thanks so much for doing that. I haven't found any media references to an FBI investigation, but I have found a few criticisms of PJ from FBI spokespeople, one of which was in an AP article from about a year ago. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 17:00, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

**My Thoughts: I am going to have to side with the Feds on that one. Though PeeJ might be doing a good thing by outing folks, only 5 comfirmed convictions out of millions of reports, that might have to tell people something. Of course, if you got a conviction, it is a good thing. However, if you ballance things out, the ratio for a conviction, or even a peek at it by the police will be slim to none. Also, the Feds are right about the people who are embarased. They can just up and leave and pretty much blend into their new communities well. I think the Feds are trying to focus their efforts on tracking down the sex offenders, which we are having problems with that now. Even if you slap a bracelet on their ankle, I still think they will kill and rape again. There is no easy solution for this problem, and it will only grow worse in time. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 17:05, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

There aren't any "links to an FBI investigation" because there isn't an FBI investigation. Records from their "hidden" forums show that they contacted the FBI about a lie that we "hacked them" back in late October/early November. It's late May. This ia a modus operandi of Corrupted-Justice.com. They used to claim that we were going to be "sued in a class-action lawsuit"... then their hidden forums were revealed and it turned out that there are no active on-going civil cases against us. So with that lie revealed, they now claim that the FBI is going to come after us! Wow! Whatever will try to influence those who can't access their hidden areas. Quotes from a year ago saying they have qualms with our tactics came not only before convictions (which change everything) but prior to any claims of "investigation" by CJ.com.

In truth, the FBI has been aware of us for quite some time.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/perverted_justice/perverted_justice18.html - The case of Carl Barcelona, which has FBI interaction.

The only "source" for the FBI claim is Corrupted-Justice.com. They're simply not reliable. For example, take the "minor" claim. They say our "lack of response" is proof that it's true. Totally false. First, they started claiming that I have had sex with all these different people when they were minors. I mocked that on my blog. Then it turned into "They use minors for sex chats!" They took this claim to the Websleuths and Officer.com message board communities. Officer.com mocked it, and Websleuths looked into it. Ref: http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20491&page=1&pp=25 - Scroll down to where "Extraaccount" posts that various minors have been used and start there. It's investigated by an NPOV member of Websleuths and found to be pretty much BS. They found that Satine was of proper age. Corrupted-Justice.com tries to use an Archive.org version of the site that later became Perverted-Justice.com that says that Satine did a bust on January 1st, 2002. The website that later became Perverted-Justice.com was created in late summer of 2002. The website Perverted-Justice.com itself was created in early summer 2003.

Let's look at some other claims:

Erika: They try to claim that Erika was sixteen when she started working for Perverted-Justice.com. Problem? Erika is currently 21. So basically, Erika has been working for Perverted-Justice.com many years before the website was ever created. Second problem, Erika is not a volunteer of Perverted-Justice.com, now, a year ago... ever. She lives in CANADA. We do not have non-US citizens doing chats in the United States. That would be stupid. Again, Corrupted-Justice.com will try anything to get people to dislike what we do, even obvious lies like this.

Geris: Geris was/is a 14 year old. Never a contributor to Perverted-Justice.com. Signed up for the forums (Over 18,000 people have... so that's not exactly unique) but has never been "vetted as a volunteer." If Geris posted in FU, that's not because we told him to or that he had to apply to. Had we known at the time that Geris was a minor, we would have removed him from that area. The case of Geris is even more interesting when you consider what CJ.com/AVSO volunteers tried to do to him! Third-party Ref: http://emptv.com/avso.php - Read that before you deal with Desertfox and AVSO. They sought to harass and attack a 14 year old.

Demetrious: Is nineteen/twenty now. Not a Perverted-Justice.com contributor. Claiming he was "submitting chats at 14" is impossible.

Crowgirl: First, is twenty, not fourteen. Second, I don't know who this person is. Never been vetted as a volunteer for PeeJ. Saying "oh, a minor has signed up for their forums" is pointless. Anyone can sign up for a forum. While we don't want minors signing up for the forums (Our website features META information that classifies the website as "mature", blocking it on filtering programs), we can't exactly use powers over time and space to stop them. No minor has EVER been used as a chat-log contributor to Perverted-Justice.com. Claims to the contrary are laughable, hence why we didn't bother responding. I have no reason to "refute" everything CJ.com claims because they never have claimed much worthy of being addressed. This claim is indicative as to their level of "research." [[User:67.169.194.181|67.169.194.181]] 19:23, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

== AVSO - Revealing responsible persons==

The following with the header above was posted to one of the talk archives by [[User:D3s3rtf0x]]. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 16:44, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

I'm the Webmaster of a site called AVSO. AVSO stands for Anti Vigilante Special Operations.

I have created this organization because I have made a personal experience what Perverted-Justice is all about. All I did was stating constructive and logic criticism. I counted up aspects that were frightening about Perverted-Justice. Next thing I know is, that my personal information, my picture as well as details from my private life got plastered all over a website that has been set up by the PJ admin. ( www.corrupted-justice.net ) This site has been used to defamate, libel, slander and threaten those who dared to speak up against PJ. I in person am defamated as "Nazi" on the PJ front page. This is a disgusting insult aiming at my German heritage. PJ is a harassing machine. PJ is a group of cyber terrorists ( Russian Pravda )

:One, if Von Erck is the "Angry German," why would he use a Nazi reference anways. Two, being a terrorist, or even charging someone as one, is a very load term. We should try to use the word vigilanties while in the article. Three, Pravda is a newspaper from the former Soviet Union. It is still being published today. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 17:12, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

::Pravda was the official paper of the communist party. Now it's a tabloid anyone can submit pieces to. Hopefully they get you guys to link the Pravda piece, because there's no better argument for supporting Perverted-Justice.com than that user-submitted "article." [[User:67.169.194.181|67.169.194.181]] 19:39, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

AVSO is an information provider. We provide information about the "dark sides" of Perverted-Justice.

Every accused criminal has a constitutional granted right to face his/her accuser. PJ is denying this right. They are cowardly hiding in the shadows of anonymity, while harassing innocent citizens, such as neighbours, employers and family members of what they call "perverts".

We are not here to judge about wether someone is a pedophile or not. We believe this MUST be left up to a court.

We are here to give harassed and accused citizens the option to take legal steps against those hiding behind screen names, by exposing their names and faces.So far we have detailed information on more than 20 so called "contributors" for Perverted-Justice.

Numerous attempts have been made by hackers ( we can not evidence it but we strongly believe they have been sent from Xavier von Erck himself ) to disturb the functionality of our website and forum, in order to keep people from seeing the TRUTH.

AVSO operates strictly under national and international laws and guidelines.

I request that the link to AVSO is put back upon the main site. We are a vital information provider, and offer a vast amount of background resources. [[User:D3s3rtf0x]]

*Well, it seems that what their website mostly does is try to out people who work with PJ. So there are two questions here: One, are their methods reliable? And two, should we care? Or, to put it another way, is a Website purporting to know the identities of participants in PJ notable enough for inclusion? Obviously the reliability question is the main one. But even if they were reliable, should we care enough to include them? I'm not so sure myself, but reserve judgment so far. Still, I have questions about the reliability of their information -- they post peoples' names and photographs on their website, but don't say anything about the methods by which the information was arrived at. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 17:02, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

::Hi, D3s, could you sign all your posts please, by typing four tildes after them, like this <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. That will produce your user name, the time, and the date, which we need for archiving purposes.

::Regarding the information that was posted about you, can you supply a link to that, please, so I can better understand who you are, and how you came to be involved in this? Also, how many people are involved in AVSO? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 17:04, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

:::In case you missed it: Ref - http://emptv.com/avso.php - They have a few volunteers, mostly from CJ.com. The websites are basically interchangeable when it comes to volunteers. Secondly, DesertFox has given quotes on his forums that show that this German citizen has some creepy views regarding WW2: ''We had a solution to deal with those people here in Germany, 60 years back. They were dragged on their hairs to work to serve the public. Good luck we live in a civilized world now, right ? -Cough-'' - Desertfox from his posts on AVSO. AVSO has nothing substantively to do with Perverted-Justice.com. It's just Desertfox's little website where he posts his random rants. It's good for a laugh from time to time, as it has some hilarious tabloid-esque updates once in a while. I liked the update where "Xavier's secret sex maths revealed!" was splashed on the main page, that was hilarious. If I didn't know better, I'd consider it a joke site. [[User:67.169.194.181|67.169.194.181]] 19:35, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

::::While I find Naziism or anything approaching it personally repugnant, that's not germane to the debate we're having here today. Let's stick to the topic at hand please before we spin off again into name-calling and finger-pointing. Thanks for signing your comments. Why don't you consider [[Wikipedia:Accountability|registering for an account]]? It makes communications much easier. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 19:44, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

:::::I only mentioned it because he brought it up. Go lecture him for whining. If he's going to whine that he's been called "creepy" for his views on his own country sixty years ago, then I'll be glad to post his quotes that have caused such speculation. :) As well, I have an account. Wiki's cookie system doesn't keep me logged in consistently. [[User:67.169.194.181|67.169.194.181]] 19:58, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

::::::Again, let's stick to debating the article (this applies to both sides). Devolving into this sort of thing will get us nowhere. If you have an account, please make sure you're signed in when using Wikipedia. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 20:02, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

:::Desertfox has been responsible for some hacking himself, so I find any indignation over hacking a little silly. Check out what happened to Corrupted-Justice.net, an anti-CJ.com/anti-AVSO portal, which has now been down for some time. http://www.corrupted-justice.net/forum/ I'm sure they will post more information regarding these attacks in the future, if/when they get their site back up. As for "revealing responsible persons", these people have long been claiming the accuracy and reprehensibility of the staff of PeeJ, and no legal action (besides a failed HRO) has happened. Where is the alleged lawsuits and endless court action that supposedly was to happen? I'd like to see less talk if nothing is ever going to happen. [[User:PhoebusApolloX|PhoebusApolloX]] 19:57, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

*To bring this back to the matter at hand: We are debating whether the AVSO link should be included in the article. I am currently waiting to hear from anyone at AVSO about what their sourcing is for the claims they make on who PJ contributors are. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 20:04, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Could we perhaps settle on whether AVSO should be linked in this article? The first time it was put in yesterday, it was disguised as a link to Corrupted-Justice.net, removing the real link to that site. I reverted that as vandalism. The link was re-added shortly afterwards, this time as a separate link. I accidentally reverted that, thinking it was re-vandalism. I reverted my own reversion when I realized my mistake. But then Xavier, and now Katefan0 have subsequently removed the link. Is there a good reason not to have the link there? Is the link to Corrupted-Justice.com sufficent for covering criticism of PeeJ? [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 20:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

:The decision was not to include it. [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]}/<small>[[User:Katefan0/Poll|mrp]]</small> 23:05, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

::If I may, where was this decision made? I don't see any consensus in this section. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 03:12, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't recall, you'll have to look back through the discussions. Nevertheless, it exists. [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]}/<small>[[User:Katefan0/Poll|mrp]]</small> 05:51, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

== Request ==

Can we convert the inline external links to [[Template:Ref]] and [[Template:Note]]? - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 04:37, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

:Sure, why not. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 04:43, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

::No, please! It means the reader has to scroll down to the end, rather than just clicking. Yuck! [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 04:49, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

==Suggestion==

Could I ask that this article not be fiddled with too much? There's been an extended edit war for months, which seems finally to have died down, and it would nice to let it stabilize for a few weeks. The thing about Von Erck's name, for example: we can add it if we find a reputable, third-party source, but as impressive as the research was (as described above), it doesn't quite meet WP requirements. It would be good if we could just leave that issue. Someone else may publish it somewhere soon; then we can add it. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 04:53, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

:Well in the meantime, if you get bored... http://www.perverted-justice.com/?con=arb1210 - There's an associated media article with the new conviction too. [[User:67.169.194.181|67.169.194.181]] 19:50, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

::Thanks for that. The article can be edited, by the way; I was only asking that no one make large-scale changes or insert anything controversial, but it was just a request. ;-) [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 20:02, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

:::Yeah, but I'd rather not edit it because as I've gone on and on about, I want the article to be NPOV. You are NPOV, not me. If I start editing it, then that gives "justification" for the anti-PeeJ people to do so. And, with that, might as well keep you busy... http://www.perverted-justice.com/?con=ryan4686 - And yes, there's a related news item covering the conviction at the bottom of the writeup. :) [[User:67.169.194.181|67.169.194.181]] 22:53, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

::::FYI, I checked the AP news stories: they directly credit PeeJ with getting the evidence against the man. One covers the arrest and the other the guilty plea. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 23:04, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

==Name==

It is now common knowledge that Xavier Von Erck is the name he chooses to go by.

People come here for information, and you are censoring it. Xavier, if you are so gung-ho about keeping your real name out of this entry, then the onus is on you to prove that it is erroneous. (Posted by [[User:68.106.37.23]] in the archives on June 8, 2005)

:People come here for accurate, verifiable information. As with any positive assertion, the onus is on those who make an assertion rather than on those who deny it. It is generally impossible to prove a negative. This is standard Wikipedia practice. The ethics seem grey here because "Von Erck" and PeeJers are disclosing the private information of others. Even so, we should treat them no worse than we treat other subjects accused of unethical, unsocial, or otherwise odd behavior. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 05:18, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

:Xavier Von Erck has now been identified in the media as Phillip John Eide, the name that www.corrupted-justice.com also found months ago. Here is the link: http://www.citybeat.com/2005-06-15/cover.shtml

I would think that as he is now identified in the meida, wiki can freely update this article with the ACCURATE name for the owner of PJ.

[[User:Jeffpw|Jeffpw]] 15:53, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Thanks for finding that, Jeff; it looks like a good enough source. Do others agree? I've added a link to the article after the name. If people feel it's not a good enough source, feel free to revert me. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 16:23, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

::It's OK. CityBeat is Cincinnati's free tabloid, basically. I'd rather have seen it from a traditional newspaper or newsmagazine, but I have no reason to believe CityBeat would not check their sources. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 16:26, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

:::Since this article has a lengthy reference to PervertedJustice, should it also be added to the "references" section? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:51, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

::::Done. Sorry, I meant to do it earlier, but got distracted. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 20:01, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

== Recent anon edits ==

The source used for substantiating that XVE located the missing girl is quite explicit. He did not "assist" in finding her, he found her through tracing the IP used when she was logging into her Yahoo account. The rest is just POV -- the article already treats PJ's critics; there's no need for bloggish commentary opining about whether chatting with minors for sex is or is not pedophilia. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 17:28, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

:See [[pedophilia]] for the definition of pedophilia. Facts are not considered "POV".

:"XVE" did not solely find her. He needed the help of both Comcast and LE. [[User:24.224.153.40|24.224.153.40]] 21:19, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Your edits assert that PJ calls something pedophilia on its website but that those activities aren't pedophilia (an interesting debate, but it has no place in this article). Nowhere does our article assert that what PJ does is "catch pedophiles," so there's no need to insert such a phrase except to assert a POV. PJ's critics are already fairly represented in the text of the article, or do you disagree? If so that's a discussion we should have. As for XVE needing the help of Comcast, that's a logical fallacy. Comcast was a passive contributor obviously, but they wouldn't have simply traced the IP without XVE's knowing to make the request -- it would be like saying that, when placing an operator-assisted phone call, I "helped" make the phone call because it was facilitated by an operator patching two lines together; just doesn't hold water. Same with law enforcement -- he didn't need their help; they needed his -- after all, they were the ones who sought him out when they hit a brick wall. Clearly, XVE's involvement was the catalyst for the girl being found, and I think the way it's treated right now in the article -- which is properly sourced -- is appropriate. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 21:37, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

:::Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Your most recent edit was: ''PeeJ also incorrectly refers to the supposed predators they place on their websites as "wannabe pedophiles", a term which can not be correct considering "pedophilia" refers to a [[paraphilia]] and not a crime.'' Do you have a source for this? It's fine to say so-and-so has criticized PJ for XYZ, but we can't just say "it can not be correct" because we are not here to pass judgment ourselves on various positions, only to summarize pertinent debates. Please cite a critical source if you can. Thanks &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 21:40, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

It seems this has been put back in, with two external links to definitions of Pedophile. I'm not certain that this is much better than when it was unreferenced... it smells of original research to me. I mean, yeah, I'd personally agree that the term isn't technically correct, but more for the reason that I'd call the people they target "Pedophiles" and "Molester Wannabes"... but then, I'm also in favor of the distinction between the terms Hacker and Cracker... but the general public still calls what I'd call a Cracker a Hacker. So the page on [[Hacker]]s mentions the way the term is used despite the fact that some people object to its use in this manner. It sites who uses the term, in which manner, and places no value judgements on whether the usage is "correct" or not. I think that we should follow suit here... we can state that thus-and-such person thinks that the usage is wrong, or whosewhatsit organization thinks it's wrong, and would prefer another usage, but not that the term is "wrong". It's just a word, a phrase, a label for a specific thing. To say "wrong" here is, I think, quite POV. (a point of view I may agree with, but a loaded pov nevertheless). Until references are cited, and by references, I mean "An organization or notable person making this claim/accusation", I'm going to remove the sentence again. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 15:22, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

:I agree, thanks for doing that. Somehow an editor slipped that back in without my noticing. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 15:52, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

:Huh? POV? That's the meaning of the word, and that's that. [[User:24ip|24]] at 16:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

::There is a clear consensus among editors active on this page that the information you keep trying to add is not proper. I am reverting the addition, again. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 16:48, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

:See again my example wrt Hacker/Cracker. Different people can use the same word or phrase in order to mean different things. Stating that any given usage is ''wrong'' is not only POV, but original research. We don't say, ever, that a belief or statement by ''any'' group X or Y is wrong. We quote other people who say so. Wikipedia documents the beliefs and practises of organizations, but does not, in itself, using (again) original research (such as looking at dictionaries and drawing a value judgement from that) declare or condemn any beliefs or practises. Not even blatently incorrect beliefs and practises, like Racism or Human Sacrifice or, yes, even Pedophilia. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 20:11, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

== Critism Section ==

I recently updated the page with the more recent convictions PeeJ has listed, but this makes the critism section a little outdated. Currently it reads:

::Some critics contend that the site's methodology is flawed, citing its success rate of 13 convictions out of 650 men exposed on the website. Supporters say that PeeJ's relationship with police agencies is relatively new, and that 13 convictions in ten months is a good track record. Many law-enforcement agencies have also stated that, while they appreciate PeeJ's mission, they do not agree with some of its practices.

However, since there are now ''20'' convictions, this should be changed. However, I don't want to alter what could be a direct quote. So I'd like a SOURCE for the above critism, so it can be accurately and directly quoted, attributed, and dated. Also, it says here "Many law-enforcement officers". Now, below there is a specific officer named... but one doesn't make many. Can we have more names here too, or correct it to state that there is only one known to have this position? [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] July 4, 2005 03:16 (UTC)

:Maybe at the time of the quote, there were only 13 convictions. If that is the case, then the quote should stay the same. We can also note it is past critcism by having an officer/official who said that and when it was said. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 4 July 2005 03:24 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sure that at the time of the quote, there were only 13. However, that brings me back to the point... where is the exact quote from? Who said it? And when? This needs to be added so as to not confuse the reader by stating that there are 20 convictions, and yet mentioning only 13 here. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] July 4, 2005 03:33 (UTC)

Oh, while I'm at it, under Methods, there is this quote:

::Scott Morrow of Corrupted-Justice.com, a website set up to challenge PeeJ, told ABC News there is currently no way to hold PeeJ accountable for mistakes. "When you're running an organization or running a group of people with the potential to do as much damage to people's lives as this does, I think there also has to be some accountability."

Which is a good quote, but it seems like a little bit of a non sequitor to me. Perhaps it should go in the crit section instead? [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] July 4, 2005 03:35 (UTC)

== Arrests ==

Is there anywhere that lists a current count of PJ arrests? I can't find the number anywhere, and since we're saying "30 arrests" in the introduction and giving a date, we should be able to update this information. Previously, I had the number 30 linked with an older date, and updated to July for the new convictions number... but now both numbers link to the same date, which is probably incorrect. Afterall, if they've gotten so many convictions recently, (13 up to 24!) I'll seriously bet that the arrests number has skyrocketed as well. So where is this information found? Until we have a place with an updated number, I'm removing the count. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 01:05, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

==Original research==

<blockquote>PeeJ also refers to their "busts" as "wannabe pedophiles", which some feel is misleading, as "pedophilia" itself is not necessarily an act and the slang adjective "wannabe" means "wishing to be" (rather, PeeJ believes their "busts" are attempting to meet the children they talk to for sex, which does not fall under pedophilia); it is also not clear that "busts" are actually aspiring to molest or contact the children they believe they are talking with. [http://www.answers.com/pedophile&r=67][http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pedophile&x=0&y=0] [http://www.collins.co.uk/wordexchange/Sections/DicSrchRsult.aspx?word=pedophile] [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pedophile] [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pedophile]</blockquote>

24ip, I reverted your edit because it's original research. Please read [[Wikipedia:No original research]]. Many thanks, [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 16:45, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

:(copied from above) There is a clear consensus among editors active on this page that the information you keep trying to add is not proper. I am reverting the addition, again. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 16:48, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

:I reverted: ''PeeJ also refers to their "busts" as "wannabe pedophiles", which some feel is misleading, as "pedophilia" itself is not necessarily an act and the slang adjective "wannabe" means "wishing to be" (rather, PeeJ believes their "busts" are attempting to meet the children they talk to for sex, which does not fall under pedophilia); it is also not clear that "busts" are actually aspiring to molest or contact the children they believe they are talking with. [http://www.answers.com/pedophile&r=67][http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pedophile&x=0&y=0] [http://www.collins.co.uk/wordexchange/Sections/DicSrchRsult.aspx?word=pedophile] [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pedophile] [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pedophile] ''

::Again, I don't see how a bloggish opinion about the definition of the word pedophile is relevant here. Nowhere in the article does it refer to the people PJ catches as pedophiles, and your citations are to dictionary definitions, NOT to critics of PJ's use of the word. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 16:50, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I'll find an organization that opposes it so I don't have to use weasel terms. [[User:24ip|24]] at 16:56, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

::That'd be a step in the right direction. Thanks. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]} 17:02, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

:::(copied from above) See again my example wrt Hacker/Cracker. Different people can use the same word or phrase in order to mean different things. Stating that any given usage is ''wrong'' is not only POV, but original research. We don't say, ever, that a belief or statement by ''any'' group X or Y is wrong. We quote other people who say so. Wikipedia documents the beliefs and practises of organizations, but does not, in itself, using (again) original research (such as looking at dictionaries and drawing a value judgement from that) declare or condemn any beliefs or practises. Not even blatently incorrect beliefs and practises, like Racism or Human Sacrifice or, yes, even Pedophilia. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 20:11, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

:::: That is what the word means! It does not mean child molester or whatnot, it means someone who is primarily sexually attracted to children, and nothing else. Wikipedia should note the incorrect usage of a term -- and yes, it is incorrect, it just happens that tabloids and ignorant people use ''pedophile'' to refer to a child molester; just as people often mix up ''blatant'' with ''flagrant'' and vice-versa, people often mix up ''pedophile'' and ''child molester'' -- and no matter how people use it, ''blatant'' will never mean ''flagrant''... and I don't understand your last sentence: pedophilia is neither a practise nor a belief, and it certainly isn't "<strike>blatantly</strike> incorrect". [[User:24ip|24]] at 22:32, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

:::::If you want your edit not to be original research, you have to produce a reputable published source for the "some feel" claim i.e. you have to say who exactly feels that PeeJ using the term "wannabe pedophiles" is misleading, and you have to provide a citation so we can check that the claim was published somewhere credible. Then the edit will be fine, so long as it sticks closely to what the source said and doesn't elaborate further. See [[Wikipedia:No original research]]. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 22:41, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Do note, the dictionaries you cite do not, in fact, state that PeeJ is incorrect. PeeJ is not mentioned in any one of those links. None of those references say that a Pedophile is NOT a molester. None of those references say that the term "Pedophile Wannabe" is INCORRECT when applied to those soliciting sex with minors over the internet. They give definitions, yes, but not one of those references gives a definition negatively... that is to say, none of them specify an anti-definition.

To put it another way, I have a citable reference that those soliciting sex with a minor over the internet are referred to as "Pedophile Wannabes". Can you cite a reference, any reference (other than yourself) asserting that this is not the case? Not that the definition of pedophile does not include those soliciting sex from minors over the internet (after all, I can cite millions of sources that fail to mention that the earth is round, but failing to mention a fact does not equal negating it) but a reference that says, "It is incorrect to use this term in this way." That's what we're looking for. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 09:07, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

The "No Original Research" policy was set up because wikipedia doesn't want to show something that is not reputable, no? Think deeply about this, though: if a site made an obvious typo (please, don't quibble about the exact meaning of "obvious"; I know you know what I mean), would editors have to wait for another source to document the typo before they could make an article about it? (theoretically of course; in reality it would be pointless to create a new page for something so minor) It would be original research, technically, but it defeats the purpose of why the policy was made in the first place. I'm not actually taking sides in this argument, but I wanted to express the notion that sometimes adhering blindly to a policy isn't always the answer. --''(unsigned anonymous comment)''

:While [[WP:IGNORE]] is official policy as well, my claim is that apart from being a typo (which if they made a typo, wouldn't be notable anyway), the site is using the word pedophile deliberately according to a common consensus meaning. The dictionary only lists positive definitions, not negative ones... in other words, words can mean more things than what the dictionary defines them as. See: [[Jargon]]. Now, you can argue that it is inappropraite to redefine a word, and that you'd prefer that everyone use pedophilia to specifically refer to the paraphanalia thingy, but that would be an argument... and original research. It may be "obvious" to you that they're wrong. But it's not obvious to everyone. You have to convince them. And in convincing them, you are using original research. Which we don't do here.

:See again my example with regards to Hackers/Crackers. Just because some people would prefer there be a distinction, doesn't mean that the distinction is always used. We report how things are, not how they should be. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 16:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

==Pedophilia category==

Why is this in the pedophilia category? [[User:24.224.153.40|24.224.153.40]] 23:38, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

:Because it's about the way some people are "outed" as pedophiles. Why shouldn't it be in that category? Please stop deleting it. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 23:56, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

::PJ inconclusively refers to their "busts" as pedophiles. There's no way to know if this is indeed true, however. I wanted to make note about that before, but apparently that's original research.

::It is the opinion of PJ -- their POV -- that their "busts" are [[pedophilia|pedophiles]], but they haven't presented any evidence for this. In my opinion, the website has nothing to do with pedophilia, but rather Internet predators. This is apparently not the case for whoever added the category. PJ deems their predators to be pedophiles, but they have no way of proving this accusation. Regardless, it is the POV of PJers that the website is about pedophilia, and Wikipedia has ''[[WP:NPOV|no point of view]]''. [[User:24.224.153.40|24.224.153.40]] 00:07, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

:::No, the men are, as a matter of fact, outed as pedophiles. Whether they ought to be outed, or whether they're pedophiles, are matters of opinion. But they ''are'' outed as such. Argue your case further here if you like, but please stop deleting it. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 00:36, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, PeeJ itself does NOT call the men pedophiles. It calls them "wannabe perverts", because it knows that calling them pedophiles can lead to lawsuits for slander or libel. A quick look at their main page will show you this.[[User:Jeffpw|Jeffpw]] 16:55, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

:[http://www.perverted-justice.com/?archive=fleet_captain_jaime_wolfe] "This wannabe pedo tried to solicit sadlilgrrl, a 13 year old girl ... or so they thought!"

:[http://www.perverted-justice.com/?archive=jbird2000_95020] "This wannabe pedo tried to solicit Catrina, a 13 year old girl ... or so they thought!"

:[http://www.perverted-justice.com/?archive=kool_biker80] "This wannabe pedo tried to solicit jerri_lee_ann, a 14 year old girl ... or so they thought!"

:The list goes on, and on, and on. Every single bust I've seen posted, in fact, uses this terminology. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 17:44, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

By adding the category, aren't we asserting that PJ is about pedophilia? We're currently categorizing it as a pedophilia website, which is a matter of opinion. [[User:24ip|24ip]] | [[User talk:24ip|lolol]] 03:18, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

:Are you arguing that PeeJ isn't a website that self declares itself to have to do with pedophilia? Even if they aren't about pedophiles (which is debatable, I think that it's fairly accurate to label someone who has indicated interest in having sex with a minor to be a pedophile) they label themselves as such, have attracted attention from self declared pedophiles themselves, and again, even if the label is incorrect, they raise the subject. It seems that the catagory is appropriate to me, in all respects. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 07:16, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

== Source: Electronic Frontier Foundation ==

My search-fu may be weak, but I've been looking for a source on the EFF's crit of PeeJ, and haven't found one. Anyone got a link? It should definitely be sourced. I'm also curious as to WHEN this crit happened, and whether or not they ''still'' have issues against the organization. There's nothing recent on their website certainly... and the EFF have been known to doggedly persue their enemies. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 18:23, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

While I'm at it, searching wiredsafety.org for perverted justice also came up with no hits. Where and when did they critisize PeeJ? If they ARE critics of the organization, wouldn't you expect them to post this on their own website, given that they mostly ARE a website? [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 18:30, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

:I'm not sure if the group's taken an official stance, or at least I can't find a reference to it. I'll contact them. Lee Tien and Julie Posey of the EFF are both critics of PJ, but they don't represent the whole organization. :/ [[User:24.224.153.40|24.224.153.40]] 23:45, 4 September 2005 (UTC) ([[User:24ip]])

::Thanks for the reference. I've expanded their complaints specifically. I've also removed the reference to wiredsaftey until such time as we have a source. While I was at it, I removed the unsourced and obviously outdated "only 13 convictions" complaint. I've felt the need to include PeeJ's responces to each complaint, since they are easily citable (PeeJ seems to publicly respond to every point of critisism ever laid against them), and because the complaints against the organization really do seem to be without merit. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 03:13, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

:::There seems to be a lot of unsourced material creeping into this article, some of it written in a way that seems to favor PeeJ. I've made the contributors section invisible until a source is supplied, and some of the writing in the methods section seemed odd or repetitive so I've tidied it. As this has been a controversial page, please supply sources for any edits that go beyond tidying the grammar. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] ^{<font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font>} 09:47, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Since Eide's name has been confirmed, I took the time to change all of the references in the article from Erck to Eide--except, of course, the two sentences that describe Erck as his pseudonym. Just makes for cleaner, less confusing reading.[[User:Jeffpw|Jeffpw]] 09:49, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

== Sickened ==

I'm sickened they associated my name with child molestors. See [http://www.perverted-justice.com/opinions/?article=11]. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 21:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

:Indeed. From what I can tell, you were simply being civil after having asked for unsourced assertions to be supported. This group, whoever they are, appear to be very uninformed about how things work around here. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 22:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

::Hopefully, the whole misunderstanding'll be corrected. I can hate a person or a type of person or a philosophy or whatever, but still work towards consensus and NPOV with them. I support you full heartedly, Ta bu shi da yu. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 01:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

:::PeeJ-Opinions has edited the information Ta bu shi da yu linked, to include Xavier's own investigation into the accused editors (exonerating them) as well as a response from [[User:Linuxbeak|LinuxBeak]] that does the same. I think this is a case of Xavier and others reading the press release from POSC and getting a little overzealous in promoting it, without doing any fact-checking. [[User:69.204.116.80|69.204.116.80]] 14:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

::::The founder of PeeJ over-zealous? No fact checking? I'm shocked![[User:68.47.226.42|68.47.226.42]] 08:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

:Regardless of whether or not the allegations that PeeJ got from POSC were true or not (and they've been rescinded by PeeJ), I don't think it's conducive to NPOV to have the subject of those allegations writing about them in the main article. [[User:69.204.116.80|69.204.116.80]] 19:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

::The whole paragraph Ta bu threw in there was factually incorrect anyways. The passage in question was not authored by Perverted-Justice.com, but was a reprinted press release sent in by another group. It is a credit to us that we bothered to repudiate claims in the press release regarding the two administrators once information was brought up that the POSC information regarding them was misinterpreted by the POSC. Lastly, the printing of that press release had nothing to do with this article, being that the conflict regarding this article was taken care of months prior to the release being sent to us. Nor was any mention of this article included in the Opinions writeup. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]]

:::I just noticed this. Actually, this is not an accurate summary of events. I threatened legal action, PeeJ told me that they would only retract their information if I withdrew legal action. Not wanting to go through a complicated legal proceding (which I would have done) I said I'd retract the threat. It was only ''after'' this that they modified their obviously inaccuate information. That they published it in the first place does not make them look very good. In fact, it makes them look downright dangerous. After all, I am most certainly not a pedophile, and in fact I am very ''anti''-pedophile. They risked making me look like one, and if you think about it could have endangered my career/life for absolutely ''no'' good reason. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 14:50, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Considering that I could have just left it up unedited since I was under no legal obligation to edit a PRESS RELEASE by ANOTHER ORGANIZATION nor to correct the statements of ANOTHER organization, the "telling you off" regarding your lawsuit threat had more to do with you being rude and my not wishing to appear that I was only editing something because you threw around legally silly threats. I never edit anything when threatened legally, it's part and parcel of how we operate. Silly legal threats are never to be respected. I had you send a polite request and then I edited it. If another group sends me a press release for posting claiming that you have sex with goats and sleep with pink diamonds, I am not legally responsible for their authoring. It is not "my" information.

::::Your attitude now, which is pure silliness, makes me regretful that I even wasted my time listening to Wikipedians who were angry at the POSC release for I was under no obligation to listen to anyone. I should just revert the press release as I'm under no moral obligation to correct the statements of unaffiliated groups. The only reason I did so was because it was the right thing to do. Attacking a third-party for being reasonable and correcting the statements of another group is itself, unreasonable. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 20:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

::: The PJ organization needs to recognize that its reputation necessarily depends on the truthfulness of the information it provides. It is no credit to the organization that it reprints unfounded allegations without even rudimentary fact checking: in fact, it's something that will no doubt be used to raise questions about the other allegations it makes. - [[User:Nunh-huh|Nunh-huh]] 07:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

== "Information First" ==

Is there a reason the "Information First" information was removed? Very few of PeeJ's "busts" are posted until after conviction these days... I think that's an important point. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 18:10, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

That is a ridiculous lie.

700 busts, and 30-some-odd convictions, the majority of which were unrelated to the actual chat-log. Although I wouldn't object to having the "information first" program posted here, since it demonstrates the hubris behind perverted-justice thinking it is better than law enforcement on these matters. (this unsigned comment by [[64.34.168.70]] at 06:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC))

:"These days". There was a period of a year or two (off the top of my head) when they didn't have this program in place, and as such, all those logs were posted. Things have since changed. The only logs posted now are the ones that either resulted in a conviction, the police officer in question dropped the case, the police officer specifically allowed the posting of the log, or the bust was made in Nevada, where a statute there makes soliciting an adult masquerading as a child legal even if the solicitor has no possible way of knowing he isn't dealing with a real child. Logs are also shown for those found in "Group Media Busts", as the evidence from such busts are so overwhelming that posting the logs can't hurt the criminal case.

:The legal process takes some time. The fact that they're currently averaging more than one conviction ''per month'' suggests to me that they're doing something very very right. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 16:02, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

::As a note, the site has 39 total convictions, not 32. To break it down... from June 2004 to January 1st 2005 = 7 convictions. From January 1st 2005 to this very second, 32 convictions. The number 32 referenced on the site is a total of convictions for just 2005, not a total for the entire site's history. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]]

:::And now it's 40 convictions total, 33 for 2005. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]]

==Link==

I added a general link to www.corrupted-justice.com as I thought a general mention would be appropriate, but it may be redundant. I'm not sure what the policy is with that so I might be wrong and I'll check. Not trying to step on any toes. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 18:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Some pages use a pro-con section strategy. Thought I'd mention that if anyone is interested. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 18:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:Are chat rooms the only place this organizations watches? It seems to me there are a lot of other places such people hang out. Do they watch Newsgroups or p2p material? I'd be interested to the scope more defined, as that seems to be an area where people give misinformation. Critical sites claim they simply collect "any info on anyone they don't like". What information could they be getting if they nonly operate in chat rooms? If I get confused by some of this, others prolly do as well. Just some observations. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 19:29, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::I'm not sure, but the founder, Xavier Von Erck, edits from [[User:XavierVE]], you might try asking on his talk page. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]}/<small>[[User:Katefan0/Poll|mrp]]</small> 03:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I'm not in any hurry; perhaps I'll just wait until he swings by here again. Perhaps he'll offer a comment then. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 23:44, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

::::We used to only work Chat-rooms on Yahoo and AOL, that recently changed three months ago and we're now branching out to things like Myspace.com, other social networking websites, craigslist (Yeah, Craigslist, it's crazy), blogging websites, etc. We don't work anything like Newsgroups because quite frankly, there are few actual teens that access them and we don't work p2p material because we do everything we can to avoid anything resembling child pornography. People send us tips about child pornography and we simply forward them on to the FBI or cybertipline.com. In a nutshell, we go where real kids go and we pretend to be real kids. Chat, social networking sites, "groups", you name it.

::::I must note, I'm rather annoyed that I don't see an update to our conviction totals in your latest edits, I posted the update last month in this discussion page. I think having accurate numbers is more important than linking a website of six people for the third time in the article. Corrupted-Justice.NET, which is a website that debunks Corrupted-Justice.com and clears up the lies of CJ.com regarding our record, has about four times the active users on it and it's linked only once (not as a general link either). [[User:XavierVE|'''XavierVE''']]

You're right, I guess it is redundant. I didn't see the other links there as they are to individual articles. I'll take that other out and see what I can do about updating the numbers. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 15:00, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

::Since you seem to be the active Wikipedian editing this, check out: http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_D_date14.2243c51c.html

::What that article doesn't go on to say is that the 22 guys we ended up getting arrested on January 7th destroyed the previous national record of five internet predators arrested in one night. [[User:XavierVE|'''XavierVE''']]

== AVSO link ==

It was decided some months ago that linking to this website, which is essentially a smear campaign without a shred of documentation, is inappropriate. In the last few days an anon has begun to edit war to insert a link to the forum at this website instead. This is equally inappropriate, in my opinion. [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]}/<small>[[User:Katefan0/Poll|mrp]]</small> 05:52, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:If you believe the AVSO discussion forum is just a 'smear campaign,' what on earth would you call corrupted-justice.net? Yet this link is posted, unquestionably. Also, before you blindly support Von Erck, you should know that he has branded the Wikipedia community as a haven for pedophiles. See http://www.perverted-justice.com/opinions/?article=11 The ASVO link is just that, a link. No opinions or commentary regarding it is posted in the article. Since AVSO is devoted solely to discussion of perverted-justice, it's inclusion in the link section is acceptable. I do not appreciate the censorship that is going on here. Let people visit the link and form their own opinions. {{unsigned|64.34.168.70}}

::Please remember to sign your comments. You can do this by typing four tildes in a row (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). Otherwise it can be difficult to sort out who's said what. [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]}/<small>[[User:Katefan0/Poll|mrp]]</small> 06:25, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

::Do you think the existing links to PeeJ criticism are insufficient? What is there on AVSO that isn't covered by Corrupted-Justice.com? Also, note the numerous links to news articles that have a definite anti-PeeJ slant. Including too many anti- links and not as many pro- could be seen as violating NPOV, regardless of whether or not "opinions or commentary" regarding them are included in the article. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 14:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

::Oh, and I took a look at the AVSO link that keeps getting re-added. What we have there is a set of forums. The only section of the forums relevant to Perverted-Justice.com requires registration to access (apparently so they can ban anti-AVSO posters more easily). That makes the link rather unuseful to the casual reader. As for the main AVSO site, it appears to consist primarily of links to Corrupted-Justice.com and the occassional item referring to posts in the registration-shielded section of the forums. These posts have titles such as "XAVIER ASEXUAL !" and "Xavier's secret sex maths revealed !" and "Why PeeJ sucks, again and again". While I cannot view the forums to see Xavier's secret sex maths, I'm sure articles with such eloquent titles are written with the utmost in diligence and fairness. (Also, the main AVSO site has not been updated since last April, which might explain why the link being added is to their forums.) [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 14:34, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Hey, don't mock my awesome SECRET ASEXUAL SEX MATHS WHICH ARE SECRET. Anyways, can someone check out the link to press-enterprise I posted earlier in the discussion? Methinks it is worthy of more time than this AVSO anon trolling and merits inclusion in the article. Oh and it's 41 convictions now, not to be a pest or anything :) [[User:XavierVE|'''XavierVE''']]

<strike>Hey if you can make math as fun as that, I got a calculus class I could use some coaching in... Do you do differential equations? ::)). --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 14:23, 24 January 2006 (UTC)</strike>

:On second thought, since I'm not sure what you guys mean by "Maths", perhaps it's best to forgo the joking for now... --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 14:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

== Pedophilia category #2 ==

Perverted-Justice.com appears to be concerned with pedophilia. "Help our efforts to raise awareness to the growing problem of online pedophilia..." is on their front page. Their FAQ makes many references to pedophiles, such as "...it appears our efforts are simply proving once again that pedophilia, grooming and molestation are uniquely and overwhelmingly male attempted."[http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?pg=faq] On the basis that the website deals with pedophilia, the [[:category:pedophilia]] seems appropriate. -[[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] 01:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

FYI, I see it was removed by Paroxysm, who contributed to the prior [[#Pedophilia category]] discussion under the 24.224.153.40 IP and a different username. -[[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] 01:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:It deals with Internet predators, not the sexual attraction to children. They make use of the term "pedophilia" and "pedophile" to refer to the act of preying on children or those who do it, but it seems clear they're not using it to describe actual pedophilia, i.e. pedosexuality.

::''it appears our efforts are simply proving once again that pedophilia, grooming and molestation are uniquely and overwhelmingly male attempted.''

:Here they make it clear they are referring to pedophilia as an action (and hence not referring to pedophilia at all). <code>// '''[[User:Paroxysm|paroxysm]]''' [[User talk:Paroxysm|(n)]]</code> 01:58, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::You're limiting "pedophile" to the narrow, medical usage, not the common usage. They call themselves pedophilic related. Do pedophiles get to pick and choose their associates? How has the matter changed since you brought up the same issue last summer? -[[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] 02:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:::[[:Category:Pedophilia]] is being used to categorize matters relating to the sexual attraction to children; we have a seperate category for child sexual abuse issues: [[:Category:Child sexual abuse]]. It's like that to prevent two very seperate issues from being mixed up.

:::Pedophiles don't get to choose their company, but a large majority of predators are not pedophiles (~14.8% extrafamilial [http://web.archive.org/web/20021026083259/www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/nca_ctte/ncapedo/ncapedo3.htm]), and this site is clearly about predators, not pedophiles. It should be in Category:Child sexual abuse, but not Category:Pedophilia. <code>// '''[[User:Paroxysm|paroxysm]]''' [[User talk:Paroxysm|(n)]]</code> 02:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::::The website appears to focus on those who are sexually attracted to children (aka "pedophiles"). Since no actual children are involved, and nobody has sex, the [[:Category:Child sexual abuse]] seems less-directly related, though probably still applicable, since they are trying to deter one mechanism of potential abuse. Your deduction that their target group is not composed of pedophiles is based on asumptions based on some long-ago study that wasn't related to this website. Since the subject says that they are engaged with pedophiles is their chief mission, and since they are described as a pedophile related group by many sources.[http://www.kirotv.com/news/4477663/detail.html] [http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/projects/crimebeat/po100404s1.shtml] [http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=71032][http://www.citybeat.com/2005-06-15/cover.shtml], it seems appropriate to use the [[:category:pedophilia]]. If we had more than one entry we could split out a [[:category:Opposition to sex with minors]], [[:category:Anti-pedophilia activism]] or something like that. Cheers, -[[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] 03:09, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::I suppose it seems reasonable to categorize them in that category, considering your mission argument. Okay. <code>// '''[[User:Paroxysm|paroxysm]]''' [[User talk:Paroxysm|(n)]]</code> 18:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow, the controversy never ends in this neck of the woods. OK, I didn't want to make a fuss. I just thought it to be redundant with the other cats. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I just don't have time to take up the issue at the moment. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 14:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

== Update Conviction Totals ==

Not to be a pushy guy, but it's 46 convictions now. Please update. Oh, and random shillery, watch Dateline 3 on Friday. It's good watchin'! :) [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 03:28, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

:Since it's no longer 2005, I reworded that a bit. (I forgot to log in when I did it, though). [[User:Cpk1971|Cpk1971]] 04:55, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

::I used to update the conviction count everytime I caught it, but these days, you're getting convictions so fast that sometimes I just despair. Maybe we should request a bot to update the conviction totals automatically... would save some work. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 16:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

::I went ahead and requested it here: [[Wikipedia:Bot_requests]] [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 16:34, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

== Recent blog addition ==

Someone (presumably, the author) has inserted a link to a blog claiming to be a critic of PJ. It has one entry that is rife with misspellings and other juvenile rantings that border on libelous. Beyond its lack of utility, Wikipedia could potentially be liable for knowingly linking to sites with libelous content, so I think this should be reverted. I've reverted it once and the anon has placed it back in, so I submit it for other editors' review. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]}/<small>[[User:Katefan0/Poll|poll]]</small> 19:25, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

:I'm not worried about libel so much, but I will say that the blog is entirely non-notable. Corrupted-Justice.com is notable because it's had some press interaction, some radio interviews, that sort of thing (even if they are almost completely discredited at this point), but some random blog? No relevance. Not notable. Practically the equivelent of a "fan site" (an anti-fan site?), and we remove those from other articles all the time unless there's something particularly notable about one, or its used as a reference for something. Heck, this isn't even an entire site... it's a blog entry. A single blog entry, so far as I can tell. I removed the link, and if I see it again, I'll remove it again. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 20:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

::That blog was not informative. I note that other entries cover denying the Holocaust and the Apollo moon landings. -[[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] 21:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

:::I find it ironic the fuss over the blog entry. You say it was "not informative", yet you continue to carry links that are no longer valid. The Corrupted justice site has long since been shut down and the links are not valid. How informative is that? I persoally feel that these removals are being done by members of PJ. Of course the articles on the blog are informative-- they provide information about the founder and some of its members. It offers viewpoints from PJ, so it is at least somewhat balanced. In any event, it's an opposing viewpoint, and I think that perhaps members of PJ are scared. If you're speaking of liability, PJ is making itself liable on many issues, and Wikipedia is no more liable for any outcome than it is for entries on assassinations. If you want this entry to be truly balanced, you need to show viewpoints from all sides, and not just specfically this blog. You say it has lack of "utility" and is "rife" with misspellings. There are no spelling errors. As far as "utility", again it presents an opposing viewpoint, unless of course Wikipedia wants to officially go on the record as officially supporting and condoning Perverted Justice and accepting that should PJ suffer any legal consequences. If you want Wikipedia to be a true information source, you need to accept varying viewpoints. Just a thought.

Anotherblogger[[User:Anotherblogger|Anotherblogger]] 14:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::The Corrupted Justice Link is still valid. -[[User:Puffalump|'''Puffalump''']]--[[User:Puffalump|Puffalump]] 15:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::::It is one entry of one person's blog. Hardly encyclopedic. As for misspellings, look again -- "persue" and "pyschopath" -- found in about 30 seconds, and I only skimmed the first four paragraphs. I do note, though, that Del Harvey is now described as a lesbian rather than a "dyke." I guess that's an improvement. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]}/<small>[[User:Katefan0/Poll|poll]]</small> 14:44, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

:::::Well, by that logic, you need to erase the Wikipedia entries of all bloggers and blogs, because they are, as you say "hardly encyclopedic". It seems as if you're perhaps defending Perverted Justice by removing any and all opposing viewpoints, and I notice the dead links still remain. I'm looking at the same entry, and this author has no spelling errors, so I have added the entries again, and will continue to do so. It bears value to this entry, and as such is valid. Oh and there is more than one entry dedicated to Perverted Justice, which you can plainly see at the bottom of the entry. Would it make you happier if the author made a whole separate section, or would it still conflict with your obvious defense of this group? [[User:Anotherblogger|Anotherblogger]] 15:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::::::I'm sorry, but I don't support the inclusion of this blog. Neither do several other people, which means [[WP:CON|consensus]] is against you. You're pushing a lone barrow here, and need to stop inserting the link against consensus. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]}/<small>[[User:Katefan0/Poll|poll]]</small> 15:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::::: Well, the problem is that the consensus of people are are all likely Perverted Justice insiders is nill. I will continue to add it, and add it again, and will have others do as well, so IP banning will be moot. You do not determine the validity of sources. If you want to be a truly valid site, you need to accept oppoosing viewpoints. Therefore, this particular blog will be added again and again and again from various IP blocks and users. This is not a method I like to use, but you apparently are PJ volunteers run amok.

::::::[[WP:TINC]]. [[WP:AGF]]. Opposing viewpoints we accept. From notable, encyclopedic sources. [[WP:NOR]]. [[WP:RS]]. Do we need arbitration here? [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 17:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::::::In more specific, from [[WP:RS]]:

:::::::'''''Personal websites as primary sources'''''

:::::::''A personal website or blog may be used only as a primary source, i.e., when we are writing about the subject or owner of the website. But even then we should proceed with great caution and should avoid relying on information from the website as a sole source. This is particularly true when the subject is controversial, or has no professional or academic standing.''

::::::[[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 17:51, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::::::::Note, we're not even usig it as a source. It's just an external link. So far as I can tell, it does not have any relevant information that we don't have in the article already. Since providing additional info is the only purpose of such links, it is not useful. -[[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] 18:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

:::: Note, you WILL use it as a source. It DOES provide additional information; specifically, home addresses and other relevant information. Don't be stupid. Sites such as Wikipedia tend to be vulnerable to DDOS and other unfortunate such incidents, when its administration makes stupid censorship moves. Make the smart choice and cease from censoring the truth. As has been stated before, the revisions will be made from various IP blocks and sources, so essentially your options are limited. The solution that will provide the least frustration for all parties is to simply allow the information to remain. It provides detailed information about a contributor, and links that work, unlike the external links on this entry.

:::::I'm sorry, but Wikipedia doesn't work that way. It functions on consensus, and consensus on this point is against you. Sorry. Issuing ultimatums and blustering on the talk page won't help your cause. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]}/<small>[[User:Katefan0/Poll|poll]]</small> 20:11, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::: You're so apologetic, Kate, why? If you, as a Perverted Justice staffer, feel so right, why are you sorry? It's no ultimatum nor is it blustering; it's simply statement of fact...sites such as Wikipedia tend to have bad things happen such as DDOS and the like when they don't play nice. Again, just a statement of fact. You can continue to censor, but just like Tom Arnold, it will keep coming back and coming back until you realize you can't stop it. "Sorry".

::::[[There Is No Cabal]]. You're just wrong. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 21:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

== Old quotes ==

I'm wondering if people have any opinions on dealing with older quotes which may no longer apply. For instance, in the lead, the quote stating "...but I don't know if justice is ever served..." seems horribly out of date, since in the past year so many convictions have occured, meaning that their criticism doesn't seem to apply any more. If anything, it almost seems to be mocking the person who made the quote, as if they didn't know what they were talking about... even though the quote is old enough that at the time, it was a relevant concern. I think it should be put in this light, but I'm not sure how to go about doing this. Thoughts? [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 20:49, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

:This is a good idea. Probably the entire section should be integrated with more recent media than what is there currently. [[User:Cpk1971|Cpk1971]] 00:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::I would like to see a new media section as well. This group seems to be more media focused than when this entry was written. [[User:Disneyfreak96|StareGirl]] 00:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

:::Lets see... we need to discuss the Group Media Busts in detail, possibly going into the dateline thing... I seem to remember the first Dateline broadcast won some sort of prestigious award for investigative reporting? Anyone got a source on that? Then we can go into positive/negative reviews of it, and also PJ's responce to these reviews (since, yeah, they really do seem media focused quite a bit). These reviews could be organized by old and new... then we could remove all the old references from the other parts of the article. That sound like a good plan? [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 18:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::::I support this; if I had more time I'd probably do it. :-) [[User:Cpk1971|Cpk1971]] 07:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm setting up a temporary subpage at [[Perverted-Justice.com/MediaRevision]] for work on the changes. Might be a good idea also to use this opportunity to convert to inline citation style too... [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 23:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

== New Website ==

I propose a website be added after Sunday. After Sunday, because that's when the site is due to come online. It is http://www.perverted-truth.com

Just for the record, I am not the blogger referenced above, nor am I affiliated with the site...I just think it would make a good addition. No threats or meanness here..just a suggestion. {{Unsigned|ScottMiller}}

:What does this website add that corrupted-justice.com does not? I'm looking for new information and/or notability here. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 23:56, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

::Fascinating -- you mean you truly aren't affiliated with the site? The website says "In the meantime, however, check out a lot of VERY interesting information [http://blog.michaelcrook.org/the_truth_about_perverted_justice here]!" (complete with link to the blogger above). Not to mention almost the exact same verbiage about "To the left you see Eide's sidekick, "PJ Harvey", an admitted lesbian." ''Horrors! A <small>lesbian!</small>'' Hmm, and perverted-truth.com whois resolves to webhosting by "domaincobby.com," a ___domain reseller that advertises "___domain names for immediate transfer." Funny, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this, but michaelcrook.org ALSO resolves to webhosting by domaincobby.com. Strange. No involvement, though. Sorry, that's a no from me. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]}/<small>[[User:Katefan0/Poll|poll]]</small> 00:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

:::I'd like to add the additional comment that wikipedia is not the place to advertise your personal website, no matter how related the content may be to the article. Links added are for the improvement of the article, not the publicity of the website. If it doesn't help the article, there's no reason to add it. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 00:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

::: I find it interesting, Fieari, that minutes after taking away anything that opposes Perverted Justice, you post on Corrupted-Justice.net. I'm not advertising for anything. Might I add it was Kate who added the direct link to the blog. Of course I have to add the site if I'm going to request it. But no matter, that's your right, as conflicted as that is. As far as Kate's findings, I'm certain that since it's the blogger's site (NOT me, despite that Kate thinks) it would use the same hosting company. I'm not certain how odd that is...but in any event this will be another VIEWPOINT. I fail to see what the fear is of adding another viewpoint here. I mean, it'll be no less valid than any of the opinion links you already have. I don't care one way or another if it gets added, I just can see that there may be some validity to the articles on the wires about Wikipedia's lack of being partial. [[User:ScottMiller|ScottMiller]] 00:24, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

::::Why would you find it interesting? I have my biases, and you have yours, as does everyone else. People aren't born without biases. But we work to NPOV here, with verifiable facts. Republicans edit [[George W. Bush]], as do democrats... every time a republican adds an edit that favors Bush, democrates rail on it until things are reduced only to what cannot be denied. Every time a democrat adds an edit that bashes Bush, republicans rail on it until things are reduced only to what cannot be denied. That's how we work to consensus here. NPOV isn't created by having only unbiased authors, because unbiased authors don't exist. If you have a problem with the article, name it... we'll hash things out. But if you have nothing to back up your complaints, if you have only insults, if you have nothing to add that's constructive... go elsewhere. Wikipedia isn't for you. See [[WP:NOT]] for a list of things Wikipedia is not. For instance, wikipedia is not a forum, and it's not a blog, and it's not your personal soapbox. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 00:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

:::::This is just Michael Crook with another URL, part of his online "Gimmick." Check the "perverted-truth" forums... four lonely posts by Michael Crook talking to himself. I guess forsaking the troops, denying the holocaust, denying the moon landing, claiming to be a nazi on Stormfront.org and uh, claiming to be a pedophile on the radio didn't get him enough attention... so now he's attacking us in a desperate need to be someone? It's kind of a compliment, since Crook usually only goes after "big" targets. I guess we've "made it."

:::::Just an internet troll, and not one that will ever merit attention from us other than this quick missive here on Wikipedia. Check Crook's own Wikipedia bio for more information on him, his M.O. and why he's trying to attack us. As far as internet gimmicks go, Crook isn't unique or interesting, he just has more free time than most... perhaps due to his... ahem, less than "grande" looks? [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 10:47, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

== Assumption of gender ==

The opening sentence claims that the organisation targets ''adults'', while the rest of the article specifies ''men''. Either the opening sentence needs to be clarified or, if there has been a case where the group has targeted a woman, the rest of the article needs to be generalised to avoid gender bias. [[User:GeeJo|<font style="padding : 0px 1px 1px 1px; border : 1px solid #809EF5; background: #FFFFFF ; color: #99B3FF">GeeJo</font>]] _{[[User talk:GeeJo|(t)]] [[Special:Contributions/GeeJo|(c)]]} <small>&bull;</small>&nbsp;<small>17:15, 20 February 2006 (UTC)</small>

:Their FAQ covers that... [http://perverted-justice.com/?pg=faq#26]

::'' Why are there no female wannabes on this site?''

::'''''A.''' It's not for lack of trying. As of this FAQ update (January 2005) we currently have found a grand total of one female in a regional room trying to hook up with an underage kid. That could change as of tomorrow, because we're trying! However, it appears our efforts are simply proving once again that pedophilia, grooming and molestation are uniquely and overwhelmingly male attempted. Not only have studies shown that very few females have the inclination, but our own efforts have, thus far, proved it. We do hope to get more females, if for no other reason than to shut up some of the less... oh, educated males who IM and email me, a fellow male, to call me an "unfair feminist."''

:Should a single female be sufficient to change all the gender related words? Furthermore, to be technical, "men" in the english language does still refer to humans in general... [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 18:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

:In December, I did change all of the references in the opening paragraph from "men" to "adults" when I was making other changes, but I didn't go through and do the whole rest of the article. I think it'd be fine to do so, as long as it is noted somewhere that the vast majority (i.e., all but one) are indeed male. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 18:41, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

==Protection==

Now that the revert wars have cooled off, I am going to remove semi protection for this article unless problems occur again. [[User:Calwatch|Calwatch]] 03:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

==Laguna Beach==

Per: http://www.orangecountyda.com/home/index.asp?page=8&recordid=312&returnurl=index%2Easp%3Fpage%3D8

Might be nice to see that added in here. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 01:39, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

:FYI, the sting was covered in the L.A.-area TV news by at least two stations, [[KABC]] and [[KCBS]]. They reported 11 arrests in 13 hours. One mentioned PJ by name. -[[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]] 20:01, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

::It was thirteen men in eleven hours. Check out the DA's press release. It's been covered by just about every L.A. station as well as most of the San Diego stations at this point. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 08:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

::It's a nice accomplishment, and probably should be added to the article, but I fear the section with the Dateline busts ("Methods") is getting unwieldy. PeeJ's methods have changed a lot in the last year; I think that whole section needs a rewrite. Also, most of the criticism seems to be based on PeeJ's Followups (specifically, that they use unorthodox tactics to "harrass" the wannabes, rather than going to law enforcement). Given that law enforcement is involved much more frequently now, the "Criticism" section ought to be cleaned up accordingly.

::And let me just say that that stupid Perverted Truth site that keeps getting listed here is horribly written, vindictive garbage. Even if it provided new information of interest (which it doesn't), it's so poorly done that it wouldn't deserve a link anyway. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 20:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

:::In spare moments, I've been tinkering with [[Perverted-Justice.com/MediaRevision]]... feel free to help out. I've been sketching outlines, but haven't really had time to hunker down and really write good prose and reword and fix things. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 20:38, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

==rv==

Why do we have Xavier's tracking of a predator listed as a conviction by PJ? Did PJ do anything? If I save a woman from a burning car should my organization be credited with doing the work behind that?

As far as I can see from the sources, PJ isn't responsible for tracking the girl down, Xavier and the cops are. It shouldn't be here.

And we would include a link to Corrupted-Justice.net if this were an article about Corrupted-Justice.com. As it stands it's not, so we include links to critique of the article's actual subject. [[User:Supguyz|Supguyz]] 20:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

: Good questions. Thanks for bringing them up here rather than just removing them from the article.

: First, the Oregon girl case. KATU credits Perverted-Justice.com, not Xavier, for contributing to the rescue: [http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=71032]. It appears the mother contacted PeeJ as an organization, not Xavier as an individual. Here, PeeJ Opinions says it was Xavier, Del Harvey, and Frag who worked together on the case: [http://www.perverted-justice.com/opinions/?article=4]. The case is also used as a rebuttal against certain critics who claim no real children have ever been helped by PeeJ's efforts. Those factors make this case significant and worth mention in the PeeJ article.

: Second, the Corrupted-Justice.net link. Throughout the ''Criticism'' section of the article, rebuttals are provided for the presented criticisms. That's only fair. The C-J.net link serves the same purpose, especially important since C-J.com's criticisms tend to be weak and involve greatly exaggerated claims and a blatant misunderstanding of PeeJ's operations.

: [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 21:26, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

:You're a fucking idiot, supguyz. The mother contacted the organization for help. Myself, Del, Frag and a volunteer that goes by the nom "DMO" combined to help out in that case. Harv interfaced with the law enforcement in the area to force them to take the computer for forensics, DMO used some of our technology to monitor the girl's accounts, Frag and I tracked down the owner of the poetry website in order to get the IP of the computer that logged into her poetry account. Both Del and myself were in constant contact with the mother during this time period. To say "PJ wasn't responsible" is pure idiocy, we were contacted because the mother found our bookmark on the family computer, a bookmark that was there due to our Group Media Sting with local Portland station KPTV. You moron trolls are so pathetic in your desperation to try to smear us, get a life. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 06:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

:: Moronic or not, Xavier, don't forget WP's official [[Wikipedia:Civility|Civility]] policies. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 16:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

:::But what if I do my best to forget them, daily? And yes, point taken. Next time I'll use prettier terms. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 17:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

=="pseudonym"==

As a note, Xavier Von Erck is not a nom de plume nor a pseudonym. It is my legal name in the state of Oregon. Either the "Eide" references can be changed by a Wikipedian today or I can do it tomorrow, though I'm loathe to edit the article in keeping with the commonly held principle of no-subject editing (though Jimmy Wales isn't too good at following that one :)). If the editing of "Phillip Eide" to Xavier Von Erck raises controversy, I'm fine with publishing evidence backing up my claim regarding my name. As an additional and not entirely unrelated note, the organization is comprised of many individuals. The way the article is written now, you really wouldn't know it as it focuses on myself heavily, to an extreme, really. I have no real suggestions on how one would correct this, but it's just something that a friend observed after viewing the article on PeeJ. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 18:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

:It focuses on you mostly because you're the spokesperson, and much of our information comes from you. As for the name thing, please publish the information... we really can't add it without an external source to verify it, even if it's true, and you are making the change yourself. But once published elsewhere, we can fix this. We'll have to note that one publication reports your name as Eide, but if your name actually is legally Xavier, I have no problems with using it throughout the article. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 20:20, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

::The other thing is that you (von Erck/Eide) are the public, named face of the organization. Certainly I know "Frag" goes on the air a lot to talk about PJ but "Frag" is just a screen name (and one with a negative connotation of "killing" at that), with no real name or even a well established pen name (first and last) attached. [[User:Calwatch|Calwatch]] 09:46, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

:::I must disagree, Del Harvey is just as commonly named and of equal importance to the organization. People coming to this article after Dateline, for example, would likely be confused as the article is written as though the organization is little more than one person, whereas four different PeeJ volunteers have appeared on the Dateline series of stings, I not among them. I simply think the article would be better served to speak of the organization more than a single person. Regardless, 'tis but a minor qualm at most. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 13:59, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

::::I'll re-watch the dateline thing and see if we can get some useful quotes from other members. But by memory, their quotes tend to be about individual cases, and not the organization as a whole, like your quotes tend to be about. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 17:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

:::::That's a really good point, actually. Put that way, it makes sense. I'll have to do a better job of giving other volunteers more of a stage to talk about the website when it comes to doing media. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 18:41, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

:And... enjoy, even with photographic evidence. http://www.angrygerman.com/?archive=vbb_689752 - I believe that should suffice [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 18:41, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

::I was about to add back in the fact that he was reported as "Eide" in one article, then remembered that the article is about PeeJ, not Xavier, and we should use the most current name. I'm adding the angrygerman blog link to the references section though, so no one can revert the name change. [User:Fieari|Fieari]] 18:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

::I'd look at the "photographic evidence" with a little scrutiny here -- as has been mentioned above, the photo is pixelated, out of focus, poorly lit, and difficult to read. I don't think anyone can look at that and rule out digital manipulation, especially since Xavier appears to be an intelligent person, both potentially capaple of using Photoshop, and understanding why a higher-quality image would be needed as conclusive proof. I believe legal name changes generally have to be made record by publication in the "public notices" section of the local newspaper, or at least thats the custom around these parts. Any chance someone from the area could investigate this? [[User:129.22.247.117|129.22.247.117]] 15:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

:::To be honest, I'm not really sure what difference it makes. Even if he is lying (for some unknown reason) and took the trouble to manipulate the photograph, what difference does it make to the article? Wikipedia uses pseudonyms all over the place, even in articles about the subject. [[Mark Twain]], [[Joseph Stalin]], [[Anne Bancroft]] -- all pseudonyms, used consistently. Regardless of whether the name change is official or not, "Xavier Von Erck" is the name under which everything he does is credited, so that's the name to use in this article. An article about Xavier himself, should one be created at some point, should mention his real (or birth, if the change is official) name once, and refer to him as "Von Erck" subsequently. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 15:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

== Fairly major changes proposed ==

Well, I've done some work at [[Perverted-Justice.com/MediaRevision]] and made some fairly major changes, including reworking the criticism section to emphasize that most claims against the organization are old, rebutted, or simply discredited. I almost moved the media busts to their own "Media" section, and changed ALL the references to inline-citations using the [[Wikipedia:Footnotes]] system.

I believe these changes are NPOV and valid, but before I make them live, I'd like some other editors to look them over first and see if they agree, since I am amittably biased in favor of the organization. Don't want any of that bias to slip into the article... just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts. I believe the facts speak for themselves. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 21:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

: Looks good to me, although I'm also biased. =) I fixed a few typos for you. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 02:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

::I've implemented it now. Any objections can be hashed out later, I suppose. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 19:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

:::Overall, very good work. I made a minor tweak. [[User:Cpk1971|Cpk1971]] 01:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

== Lead section ==

I think some revisions might be useful for the lead section. The first sentence says that the organization is primarily for publisizing their busts, but that no longer seems to be the case. They're more interested in helping police prosecute these days. What would be the best way of wording this, do you think? [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 20:34, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

: It's not entirely inaccurate. The busts still go up on the website, and just because they've been convicted doesn't mean that PeeJ is done with them. I believe Follow-up still keeps track of them after they've been released from prison (if they went in the first place). [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 00:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

::That's true, but it seems like that isn't quite the ''main'' focus. They say they're working just as much as they did in the early days (when a bust or two would be posted ''every day''), but you don't see that anymore because of "Information First"... which suggests a shift of focus to me. We definitely need to keep all the follow up information in the main article, I'm just thinking about the lead. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 03:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

== History/Timeline ==

What would be the best place to find something like a timeline/history for the organization? With all the changes, events, milestones, etc they've made, a "History" section could be useful, I think. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 20:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

:There's probably enough information by now to write a book. I wouldn't be surprised if a book on this shows up sometime in the next few years. But as for the history section, would it repeat a lot of information already in the article? A timeline might be best. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 16:17, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

==Porn==

:''As to the reports on child pornography, the site's operators state that when they or their volunteers are sent child pornography, they "immediately report it to the police and without fail."''

When they receive this child pornography, are they aware that this is what the other person is sending, or are they unaware of what they are receiving? I think it is important to note whether it was received knowingly or not. I'm assuming they are totally unaware the image being send is child porn. Am I right/wrong? --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 15:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

: I'm not sure what difference it makes. The porn gets sent one way or another. They don't solicit it; sometimes the mark doesn't even announce he's sending a picture. Whether they know they're about to receive kiddie porn or not, there's not much they can do about it -- except report it to the police. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 15:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

::Well, they can always refuse to accept it/open it. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 15:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

:::Can they? There are a variety of ways for the mark to send the images, depending in part on what chat service they're using, and I don't know which of them have the ability to reject the picture. Anyway, I think that's moot. If they know they're getting child porn, they have to accept the picture in order to send it to the authorities (and to verify that it's actually child porn). If they don't, then they have to look at it before they know it's child porn. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 16:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

::::But accepting the picture knowingly is illegal. That's what I'm asking. If it's received in any way knowingly, that's illegal. This is an important point, and is in no way moot. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 16:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

:::::Well, here are the facts we know. 1) Accepting the picture knowingly is illegal. 2) Illegal things get you arrested. 3) PeeJ volunteers are in close contact with both police and legal advice. 4) PeeJ volunteers have never been arrested. These facts lead to the conclusion that they never accept such pictures knowingly. In general, child porn probably isn't marked as such in the file name, and usually, when sending files, it only gives a file name, if that. In AIM, if you've direct connected, which is innocent enough and there's plenty of reasons to do so, there isn't even a prompt for the other person to send you images. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 18:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

::::::Ok, I thought that was the case, I just wanted someone to second it, as the article doesn't state it outright. I'll leave it open as to whether or not anything needs to be said or clarified in the article. I just think that if I have a question, others might as well. I'm not totally familiar with the laws, but from what I've read, they seem to be pretty picky even about small things regarding KP. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 18:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

:::::::Well, there's receiving something you know is child porn, and then there's receiving something you have reason to believe might be child porn. In the latter case, I really don't see how inspecting the contents and then immediately referring it to the authorities (if it turns out to be child porn) would get one arrested. But then, I'm not a legal expert. =) In any case, rare is the mark that would say, "Hey, here's some pictures of naked kids, have a look." I doubt contributors ever have good reason to expect the file they're receiving to be child porn, unless the mark has already sent some. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 18:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

::While you guys definitely reasoned it out, I'll give details regarding our policy on KP. If the perp tells us ahead of time it's child porn, we don't open it. If the perp doesn't (and the vast majority don't state so) then it would then likely be opened. Oh, as a side note, check out the media regarding our recent sting in Ohio. 18 more for the big board :) [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 09:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

==pro-pedophile groups==

CJ.com is not a pro-pedophile group. Good God, I can't believe that shit was even there. CJ.net's [http://corrupted-justice.net/?pg=cjerinfo smear section] doesn't demonstrate that CJ is pro-pedophilia at all. It shows that one of the founders was sexually abused and developed paraphilic [[infantilism]], then makes fun of him for it. It shows that PJ Buster comes from Canada where the age-of-consent is '''''only 14'''''!! It shows dodger gets angry when people litter and end up breaking his arm. What a joke. [[User:TrueMirror|TrueMirror]] 00:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

: Granted. It wasn't clear to me what claim you meant when you said it was unsubstantiated. I agree calling CJ.com a "pro-pedophile organization" is misleading at best. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 01:08, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

::Considering that the website was founded by a man, Matthew Carpenter aka Real Activist aka Diaprboi, who graphically talked of performing oral on a child on usenet prior to the existence of CJ.com or Perverted-Justice.com, the assertion that he simply suffers from "infantilism" is the joke itself. Considering that Carpenter is a self-admitted member of NAMBLA additionally takes a giant potshot at the "infantilism" joke. Calling the site a "civil rights organization" is a huge misnomer considering that civil rights organizations actually fight for an individual's, oh, civil rights against government oppression, rather than attempting to aid the criminal defense of individuals charged with CHILD SOLICITATION. Yeesh. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 03:09, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

:::As a note, I don't think wikipedia should be calling a group "pro-pedophile" either, since it's not technically NPOV, whether one agrees that the org is pro-pedophile or not. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 04:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

::::Oh, a group could certainly be described as "pro-pedophile" if that's what they advocate. I don't think it'd be unreasonable to describe NAMBLA that way, for example. But CJ.com is best described as an anti-PeeJ organization. =) [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 12:30, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

(RI)There needs to be sources to back up the categorization, otherwise it is [[WP:NOR|original research]]. There should be ample sources for an organization that is worth categorizing in this manner. Otherwise we wouldn't we discussing them, right? [[User:FloNight|<font color = "darkblue">'''FloNight'''</font>]] [[User talk:FloNight|<font color = "green">^''talk''</font>]] 12:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

: The categorization in question been removed, so it's kind of moot right now. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 13:34, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

::I wanted to correct the misperception by XavierVE (maybe and other users) that WP editors make the decision about which group is pro or ant-pedophilia. Following [[WP:NPOV]], [[WP:RS]], [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:V]] will keep this from being pov-pushing OR. [[User:FloNight|<font color = "darkblue">'''FloNight'''</font>]] [[User talk:FloNight|<font color = "green">^''talk''</font>]] 14:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

==deleted material replaced by myself==

:''Perverted-Justice.com claims that all objections to the organization are often based on ignorance, concerns about vigilantism or stem from objections to age of consent laws.''

Could someone check and see if this is exactly what the website says? If this is correct, we might say "...claims '''on their website''' that..." so people won't be able to complain about a source and remove it. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 05:43, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

:: Closest I can find is this, from the FAQ: [http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?pg=faq#22]. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 19:24, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

::: Bah, the internal page links on the FAQ are all messed up. I mean to link to the question "What about critics of the website?". [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 19:31, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

::::I'm not overly concerned, but someone removed it and I put it back. Previous to that, someone had removed the "ignorance" part and I replaced ''that''. They also added the vigilantiism part. I might be splitting hairs, but I think the mention of ignorance is important. I just would like to back it up with a citation if the sentence is saying they actually are saying it and so nitpickers won't be able to come by and jerk that part out. When ppl only read the hype and don't look at the site, I think they get a very distorted picture, hence I think the ignorance part should remain. But may need to change the sentence if it's me saying it and not them. I'll give that faq a careful read. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 23:28, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I think "lack of coherent criticism" is the best thing there. I changed it a bit. If someone wants to integrate the citation with the format of the other citations, please do. As it is, the citation links straight to the FAQ page. --[[User:DanielCD|DanielCD]] 23:33, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

::::::Done. I also got the link to go to the right spot on the page. Those links in the FAQ really are messed up... sheesh. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 08:40, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::::It still doesn't work for me; it goes to "What other work does PeeJ do?". I suspect both questions have the same anchor number. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 13:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

== Crit and Praise in lead ==

I've been a bit uncomfortable with the "PeeJ has been critisized and praised" bit in the lead paragraph for a little while now, because it doesn't get at the heart of the controversy at all, doesn't call attention to the fact that the criticism can no longer reasonably be said to apply to the modern organization... in fact, if we were to mention the reason for their opposition in the lead, it'd almost be slander against them. Furthermore, it does injustice to the reader, implying that PeeJ isn't as notable as it is by suggesting that the only two other organizations to even notice them has been in the form of one note from the NCMEC and one note from one single police chief&mdash; which clearly isn't true.

I'd be in favor of replacing this sentence either with something along the lines of noting repeated thanks, outdated critics and CJ.com... or just cutting it from the lead altogether. The article can go into the details of praise and scorn, but does the lead really need to focus on that? [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 08:40, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

:Since no one has replied, I'll assume there are no objections and cut the statement from the lead. If you disagree, would you please state why here first? [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 01:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

== Von Erck's image ==

At [[Image talk:VonErck.jpg]] I am disputing that the use of Xavier Von Erck's image in this article falls within fair use, in case anyone would care to discuss it there. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 21:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

:Hm. Xavier, would you care to upload one licensed under GFDL? &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]}/<small>[[User:Katefan0/Poll|poll]]</small> 21:07, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

::Huh? Sorry, no idea what this is about. Nor do I even care to have my image in the piece, the piece is about the organization which is far more than one person. So... not sure what the point of this is, but I'm not going to aid my pic used in this article since I never thought it all that appropriate anyways. [[User:XavierVE|XavierVE]] 04:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

== Perverted-Truth.com ==

OK, someone added a link to Perverted-Truth.com. This at least has the virtue of not being AVSO, so I was going to leave it alone. But then I actually went to the site. The links to information on PeeJ contributors all result in 404 errors. So does "What Motivates Them" and "Methods They Use". The Forums contain precisely four posts. Total. The remaining information on the "site" is vague hand-waving about the "illegal" and "immoral" methods PeeJ uses. It's like they're still combating the PeeJ of 2003 instead of what PeeJ is today. There's no content there; the entire site is maybe a few thousand words. I removed it as pointless. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 03:27, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

== A question I've had about posing as underaged ==

I'm not sure if this is answered on the site, as it appears to be down. But if the lady these men are soliciting sex from is 19, how are they breaking the laws that prohibit soliciting sex from a minor? --[[User:Ssj4android|Ssj4android]] 23:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

:Most states in the US have laws against soliciting someone who is ''believed'' to be a minor. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] 23:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

:The clearest answer I've seen for this question is at <http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?pg=faq#57>. [[User:VentrueCapital|VentrueCapital]]

== Bust counter ==

With regards to updating the numbers, I note that there is no longer an easy to find "Bust Counter" on the main page. Does the bust counter (as opposed to the conviction counter) still exist on the site that we can reference it, or should we just cut out the number of busts from our article when updating the conviction count? [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 22:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)