Talk:Epic of Gilgamesh: Difference between revisions

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== Bilgamesh? ==

==time-frame Troubles==

For the entire history of the Epic, there is: Old Babylonian, Middle Assyrian, and Neo-Assyrian; to pick a 'number', we are dealing with about 1000 to 1500+ (plus) years of a Re-worked, and re-read Epic. The various "tablet notes", (footnotes etc), have the sparse variations in Syllables, phrases, and even additions/ deletions of lines(paragraphs). I still think the "Meteorite" stanzas of Chapter 1 and 2, (the word used 10 times), are the more profound, with their implications to human history. (See Kovacs, reference and translation.) (kisru played against Zikru; the three s's, s, ş and š(sh) and z are all interchangeable in this, basically "No vowel used" language.)

==old talk ==

In the more recent editions of Andrew George's translation, the Sumerian stories use the name Gilgamesh just like the Standard Babylonian version. Does that mean Andrew George's claim in the older editions that the Sumerian stories used "Bilgames" was incorrect? -- [[User:NetSpiker|NetSpiker]] ([[User talk:NetSpiker|talk]]) 14:21, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

This bit about an untranslated tablet believed to be the twelfth tablet of Gilgamesh... where does the information come from? How come the tablet is "believed to contain" something when it's untranslated? Can anyone provide a link to a more informative news story?

:No, Bilgames is the Sumerian form; see the sources cited at [[Gilgamesh]]. [[User:Furius|Furius]] ([[User talk:Furius|talk]]) 15:34, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

_________________________________________________________

::Then why was Bilgames changed to Gilgamesh in the more recent editions of the Sumerian translations? If Andrew George wanted to switch to using the more familiar Babylonian name throughout the book, then why were other Sumerian names like Huwawa, Inanna and An left unchanged? --[[User:NetSpiker|NetSpiker]] ([[User talk:NetSpiker|talk]]) 04:07, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

:::You would have to ask Andrew George those questions, assuming he doesn't explain why in the newest editions or elsewhere. Ultimately, there's nothing we can do until reliable sources publish about it. Inferring ''anything'' from George changing (only) "Bilgamesh" to "Gilgamesh" would be [[WP:OR|original research]]. [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] ([[User talk:Woodroar|talk]]) 21:18, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

== who is his husband? ==

I read that the 12th tablet had been translated and does not contain the 12th chapter of the epic. It contains a separate poem about Gilgamesh. In contrast to the first 11 tablets it includes both Shumerian and Akkadian texts.

*cought*

[[Special:Contributions/31.47.11.97|31.47.11.97]] ([[User talk:31.47.11.97|talk]]) 18:55, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I like how this article describes Enkidu as Gilgamesh's "friend". Especially since both Old Babylonian and Standard Babylonian sources say that Gilgamesh will love his new companion like a wife. [[User:Angry bee|Angry bee]] ([[User talk:Angry bee|talk]]) 23:43, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

Moved the passage about the Akkadian versions to the main part, as it did not belong to the 'Sumerian legends'. --[[User:Oop|Oop]] 11:15, Sep 26, 2004 (UTC)

==Translations==

_________________________________________________________

=== Revise list of translations ===

The section on translations at the bottom of the article still lists N. K. Sandars' translation, which was last revised in the 1970s. The issue with this is that Gilgamesh translations become outdated for two reasons: (1) the knowledge of Babylonian language in general improves as new clay tablets and fragments are discovered and deciphered, and (2) new fragments of the Gilgamesh epic are discovered (like the "monkey tablet" a few years ago) and older translations don't contain this new content. For this reason, I suggest we remove Sandars' translation and replace it with newer ones, i.e. the translations by Andrew George (Penguin, 1999) and Benjamin R. Foster (Norton, 2nd edition, 2019). I would also list translations of the Old Babylonian version and the Standard Babylonian version separately. [[User:ChristopheS|ChristopheS]] ([[User talk:ChristopheS|talk]]) 21:49, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

===Revise/undo the revision===

''Although the epic itself was lost for millennia, Hittite versions of it existed. Some people think that it has had an indirect impact on Western literature through the Biblical story of Noah and the flood, a suspected retelling of a portion of the Gilgamesh epic.''

The fact that translations are outdated has no bearing on their ''existence''. Currently, the article is pretending that Gilgamesh first began influencing modern culture with an Arabic translation in the '60s, which is patent nonsense. Add the "outdated" "wrong" translations back, definitely including the first into a modern European language and the first into English and any other major ones. '''Regardless of how "wrong" they were, they are part of the history of this work''' and its influence on modernity, which the article itself currently states was already occurring by the WWI era.

As a single example, "flower of immortality" is a clearly mistaken invention of translators that doesn't appear in the original texts. It's still extremely common in discussion of the work and there's no way from the current article to go find the touchstone (mis)translations that produced it. If the list gets long enough it's {{sc|undue}} and needs its own separate subarticle... that would be great. ''Blanking'' content was a huge mistake and disservice.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Llywelyn<span style="color: Gold;">II</span></span>]] 17:49, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused about the Hittite referrence since the most complete version we have of the Gilgamesh epic comes from the 7th century BC, long after the Hittite empire but also contemporary with the writing of the Bible. I'm going to go ahead and delete that part for now (someone may wish to revert and provide clarification). [[User:Grice|Grice]] 06:32, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

==Flower of Immortality==

Some serious criticism is needed to find out which versions of Gilgamesh epic have influenced the Old Testament the most. So, I would not dare to claim a special status for the Hittite version. While it may have been an important source for the Greek loans, I also would not say the genuine epic was lost for the time whilst Hittite version would have been dominant, as the passage above seems to suggest. Maybe it is only a question of bad wording, of course. --[[User:Oop|Oop]] 21:30, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

Speaking of which, given its importance to the story, scholarship on the story, and its cultural relevance more generally, we should be including the ''actual name'' of (G|B)ilgamesh's miracle cure in translation, cuneiform, and transcription and have a sourced {{tl|efn}} note on at least the two most common mistakes about it, pointing out that "flower" appears nowhere in the text and that ''naming'' it "Old Man Who Becomes Young" was a misparsing of (G|B)ilgamesh's plan to ''see'' if his guinea pig old man became young or not, after which he was planning to take it himself.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Llywelyn<span style="color: Gold;">II</span></span>]] 17:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

==Alexandrines & snakes==

==removed relevant bit==

The article currently sources

this got tossed out with the "trivia" section and could later be re-introduced into a more detailed version (if correct):

:The first is that Gilgamesh seeks the plant of youth whereas Alexander seeks the water of life. The second is that the motif of the snake shedding its skin in the Gilgamesh legend is replaced in the Alexander legend by a fish returning to life upon being washed in the fountain. The reasons for these differences was due to the Christianizing force involved in the adaptation of the Gilgamesh legends.

:The Great flood from the Epic of Gilgamesh describes a cube-shaped vessel some 60 meters long on each side that was built in only seven days.

to a JSTOR article, which is fair enough. Whether the misreading and inexactness is the scholar's or the editor's, though, '''(a)''' there is no "plant of youth" in the text. There's a heartbeat plant or medicinal agent credited with restoring youth. Again, we should have the plant/agent's actual name from the text and then use a form of it consistently in the article in place of inexact glosses or inaccurate loose translations and mistranslations. If it varies across sources, note that and use the most standard one. '''(b)''' The [[Alexander Romance]] wasn't Christian, even if versions of it were ''later'' Christianized. Unless these particular plot points only appeared in later Christian editions (which should be noted) they shouldn't be credited to Christian allegories, even if a single scholar can be found overstating that case. '''(c)''' Very pointedly, the medicinal plant in Gilgamesh ''is'' found under water and the involvement of [[Abzu]] was likely directly related to its supposed potency. The plant needing to be pearldived should be at least mentioned in any discussion of a transfer of the magical power from the plant to the body of water itself.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Llywelyn<span style="color: Gold;">II</span></span>]] 18:18, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] 19:22, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

'''(c2)''' Ishtar’s Descent into the Underworld and other early Levantine myths already have waters of youth/immortality themselves, presumably without reference to Christian allegory.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Llywelyn<span style="color: Gold;">II</span></span>]] 18:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The purpose of mentioning this is to claim that the bible account is entirely different.

It is important to note that the trivia section failed to mention the similarities.

If the description goes back in then the similarities must be added as well. To fail to do so is not applying NPOV.

There is an article [[Great Flood]] which discusses the details of the flood account in the Epic of Gilgamesh. That article is where such detail belongs, if anywhere. And addition to that article also requires the addition of details of the similarities to be an NPOV addition. [[User:CheeseDreams|CheeseDreams]] 19:34, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

:and your point is? the "trivia" section was not mine, and I considered deleting it before. You will note that I only cite the Gilgamesh bit, not the Genesis bit that was there also. Since this article is about the Epic of Gilgamesh, a more detailed summary of the action could eventually include this information. At the moment though, it was, I agree, just trivia. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] 19:48, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== Dubious deletions concerning Gilgamesh ==

Please refrain from your habitual deletions on the Gilgamesh articles regarding homosexuality. I am sure this is a misunderstanding. If you view the Epic of Gilgamesh entry and click on the link entitled "Is gay marriage older than the Bible?" you will see all requested information and sources. If you have any questions be sure to bring them up. Thanks. [[User:67.41.186.237|67.41.186.237]] 02:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Please refrain from adding dubious information to wikipedia. The link is dead. In general, websites are not reliable source if info and in absense of more solid data are disregarded. On my website I may post an article that Gilgamesh is my grandfather and send you to hell. I am perfectly aware that homosexuality was widesplead in ancient world, e.g., in Greece and East, but this is the case that requires solid confirmation, not some sensationalist article circulating in blogs. thank you. [[user:mikkalai|mikka]] [[user talk:mikkalai|(t)]] 02:50, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/074326164X/qid=1117939600/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-0050009-3545756]

This is hardly sensationalist. Not some personal blog but an acclaimed scholar. Here is a new link since the old one is out of use. [[User:67.41.186.237|67.41.186.237]] 02:52, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:The key phrases in a review are ''he admits he doesn't know Akkadian'' and ''Given the incomplete condition of the original, he has not hesitated to fill in some gaps''. Feel free to write a wikipedia article about this book. [[user:mikkalai|mikka]] [[user talk:mikkalai|(t)]]

::that review is by a person not a scholar, that fact still stands that a previously untranslated portion of the 12 tablet contained male homosexuality, that is undisputed [[User:67.41.186.237|67.41.186.237]] 02:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

and the ref. to he filled in the gaps is concerning story line not sexuality, you should read the book [[User:67.41.186.237|67.41.186.237]] 03:00, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please stop adding unverified information, otherwise you will be blocked from editing. Feel free to write an article about the controversial book. [[user:mikkalai|mikka]] [[user talk:mikkalai|(t)]]

::this information is verified, you will be blocked for persistent vandalism. it is ibviously verified, a source is given, and this scholar is acclaimed, your edits are contraversial [[User:67.41.186.237|67.41.186.237]] 03:05, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::: The scholar does not know the language, he cannot be acclaimed as translator. You are violating the 3-revert rule. You may be blocked for this. [[user:mikkalai|mikka]] [[user talk:mikkalai|(t)]] 03:10, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::Mikkalai is an arrogantly vapid twat who needs to check his facts. Try actually reading the book, dipshit. [[user:131.111.195.8|131.111.195.8]] 18:37, 6 June 2005 (GMT)

::::: the facts are checked. The book is written by a person who admits he does not know the language of the origin. Hence his work is a pure fiction, a translation from English to English. [[user:mikkalai|mikka]] [[user talk:mikkalai|(t)]] 17:45, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==homosexuality claims==

"Some claim" will not do at all. By a ''long'' way. What exactly are the claims, and who published them, when and where? I would be interested to have even oblique references to homosexuality in Gilgamesh, but let's keep this up to academic standards. The more outlandish your claim, the better references you will need. Also, anon, at the stage when you think it necessary to begin calling people names like "dipshit", you probably need to sign up so people have a username to respond to. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''&#5839;''')]]</small> 16:26, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: It is in the reference Mitchell, Stephen (2004). Gilgamesh: A New English Version.

:The guy decided that traditional academic translations are very dry, and he decided to translate it into "modern English" (BTW, he confessed he does not know Akkadian. So you may imagine what academic quality this book is.) It amounted to spreading erotism and sex all over the text AFAIK. the rumors that Tablet 12 was suppressed because of homosexy in it is bull. Ancient pederasty has been pretty well known; and it was not suppressed in academia; rather it was not brandished at every possible occasion. [[user:mikkalai|mikka]] [[user talk:mikkalai|(t)]] 01:51, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::no, no, I mean a publication where the text is actually discussed, word by word, so that we can quote the actual phrase, with competing reconstructed readings, and their translations, so that we can judge what the allegations are based on. Just saying "there was homosexuality in tablet 12" without discussing the actual text is worthless of course. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''&#5839;''')]]</small> 08:18, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::* The LGBT Mythology category seems dubious. Having read three different translations, I can't imagine why anyone would conclude that it has any explicitly-stated homosexual themes in it. By applying these types of a loose standards, one could easily classify the Christian Bible as "Incestuous Mythology" based on Gen.19:30-38 and 2S.13:29. I say lose the category until actual text is cited. Most of the text is lost in translation, in my opinion. "Soulmate" citation with regards to Enkidu's relationship with Gilgamesh is archaic is doesn't necessarily imply homosexuality.

==Should be merged with [[Gilgamesh]] page?==

Yes. And if there's not going to be any mention of the influence (or "possible influence") on the Bible (and subsequently the Avesta, Qur'an, etc.), than at least put the link to the Great Flood article here. Otherwise it looks suspiciously POV. [[User:Khirad|Khirad]] 08:28, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

:I agree that there should be some mention of the relationship between the flood story in the epic and other flood myths, including the biblical version. However, as far as the merge is concerned, as yourself one question; would you want to merge ''[[The Odyssey]]'' and [[Odysseus]]? [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Talk]] 13:45, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

== Some more New Talk - The 11/12 "Chapters" ==

Some common lengths of the Chapters, is about 315 lines. For a 3-column tablet, with say, 52 lines per column, that gives 2 (3-Column) "tablets" per Chapter.( The pictured Tablet has about 50 lines, but represents probably 56-60 lines, some doubled)

I do not know the facts about the Ashurbanipal archives. However, the 1997, Parpola, "Computerized" work, (with a couple of typos only, that I saw), list all the tablets, in all the Museums, collections, etc. The average, with duplication, is about 5 tablets per chapter, about 65 tablets, and probably another 15-20 "pieces". ( 80 % are 3-Column )

I don't have anything against calling the 12 Chapters, 12 Tablets. Parpola's, "Archives of Assyria", work does list everything as Tablet 1, through Tablet 12. '''So that is consistent with this Wiki page'''. I just wanted to point out that the Sumerians to the Neo-Assyrians called their Chapter = Tablet. That is the ultimate reasoning why it is Tablet 1 thru Tablet 12. ''It is really the naming that the Neo-Assyrians stuck with.'' The chapters, (the 12 'tablets') are really, composed of multiple, mostly 3-Column tablets, 2-Column, as well as some 1-column, and etc.,.. including school tablets.....

Sorry, reread some things; Chapter 12 has 155 lines, 29/30 line columns, up to column VI. 6 times the 30 gives or 29 gives, 174,slightly different than the 155. There are 4 tablets listed for Parpola Standard Babylonian version, tablets A,B,C,D, also e. e is NB Neo-Babylonian, A-D are NA, or Neo-Assyrian (Ashurbanipal's time). (The last ( of the 155 )2 lines are Title Page lines and are separted by spaces.)..(All the 12 Tablets, have an item on the last two lines ( the "colophon"?), which states "Ending, and the title of the next chapter coming up". )

( The [[Colophon]] is also used as a "signature", line or lines. }..M McAnnis

The whole topic could be confusing to one who knows nothing of the 12 Tablets. They really are ''12 Chapters, but originally called 12 Tablets.'' .....Michael McAnnis,YumaAZ

'''The reason for 'Chapter' discussion'''. I read a little of the above discussions, and it is not as easy as just grabbing ( 1 ) "tablet" and translating it. It just sounded like every body was talking about one "tablet" to study for chapter 12, or whatever. That's not the reality of it. MMcAnnis

== Note on Tablet 11? ==

This seems to be very technical and somewhat out-of-place. Is it worth having in the article?--[[User:Rob117|Rob117]] 19:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

:Seconded. I had a hard time trying to figure out what it is saying. At the very least it needs to be rewritten in a less technical format. --[[User:71.242.182.172|71.242.182.172]] 04:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

== Triple-stranded rope claim ==

== Trivial? ==

I'd just like to note that this Wikipedia article was [https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/16917/do-the-bible-and-the-epic-of-gilgamesh-really-contain-the-same-rare-proverb-abou the subject of a discussion on the Literature StackExchange] in December 2020. The discussion is about a sentence that is still present in this article 5 years later, still sitting without citation.

Though oft pic w a bow, he didn't actually carry 1, but a battleax called ''Might of Heroism'' (or so I've read...) [[User:Trekphiler|Trekphiler]] 17:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

This sentence in particular: "A rare proverb about the strength of a triple-stranded rope, "a triple-stranded rope is not easily broken", is common to both books.[citation needed]"

== Noah's ark page ==

I interpret the result of the discussion as being slightly skeptical of the claim made in the article. How do others feel? — [[User:Gmarmstrong|Gmarmstrong]] ([[User talk:Gmarmstrong|talk]]) 22:11, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

I'd be grateful if any experts on the subject could have a look at the [[Noah's ark]] page, other flood accounts section, which I've just revised. Please note that I'm only after fact-checking - explicit parallels with the Genesis account are not encouraged, being of a highly inflammatory nature. Thanks. [[User:PiCo|PiCo]] 02:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)