Talk:Arc-fault circuit interrupter: Difference between revisions

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==Copyright concerns==

{{Cv-unsure|url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arc-fault_circuit_interrupter&oldid=234201657|date=October 2008}}

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::<s>{{US patent|0204949}}</s> and {{US patent|8004802}}, both assigned to [[Eaton Corporation]] provide operational details and a few specifies. —[[user:EncMstr|EncMstr]] ([[user talk:EncMstr|talk]]) 09:55, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

:::Whoops. 204949 is a 19th century patent for muscialmusical isntrumentsinstruments. The other one seems relevant. What was the first patent number supposed to be? --[[User:Wtshymanski|Wtshymanski]] ([[User talk:Wtshymanski|talk]]) 17:47, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

::::Hmmm, [http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=20080204949 this link] seems to have been intended, but it is a submission—not an actual patent. I have puzzled over it for a couple minutes, but I don't see a cross reference to a patent. —[[user:EncMstr|EncMstr]] ([[user talk:EncMstr|talk]]) 18:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

If there is no published, open-source specification on how a AFCI is supposed to work, then how can a AFCI device be certified safe and effective to use? --[[Special:Contributions/71.10.155.250|71.10.155.250]] ([[User talk:71.10.155.250|talk]]) 22:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

:

:As well as I know, it is the high frequencies usually generated by arcs. That is, the same physics as spark gap radio transmitters. [[User:Gah4|Gah4]] ([[User talk:Gah4|talk]]) 10:02, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

==Playful circuit interrupter==

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::no citation for the fire death data as it is plain wrong. Just look at the NFPA stats: http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/os.homes.pdf Looks like the contributor is trying to be humourous! Interestingly AFIs are designed to ignore inrush currents when coils (in GLS light bulbs and motors for example)are energised....and repeatedly switching lights on and off is not an accepted cause of fire. Can't find a citation for that other than 20 years in fire investigation <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Lardyl|Lardyl]] ([[User talk:Lardyl|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lardyl|contribs]]) 23:53, 19 February 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: I have the 2014 edition of the NEC (NFPA-70) and there is nothing in the index about a "PCI" or "Playful Circuit Interrupter".--[[Special:Contributions/71.10.145.225|71.10.145.225]] ([[User talk:71.10.145.225|talk]]) 20:43, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

==Safety - but at what cost? ==

Just to note that AFCI and GFCI breakers are much more expensive than regular breakers. If I were to follow the NEC code (NFPA-70), over half the breakers in my 20 year old house would need to be replaced with AFCI's, which cost 5x more than conventional circuit breakers and might also be prone to false arc events. For my house, that would cost a minimum of $600 in materials alone. Section 210.12 of the 2014 NEC (regarding AFCI's) states: ''"All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected..."'' Plus I don't get an insurance discount for upgrading to AFCI's, and AFCI dual-breakers at 15- and 20-amp are not available to match my electrical box, so I would need to add a sub-panel too. At one time, NFPA was pushing to have new houses have sprinkler systems installed throughout thea new house too. ABCMandates firelike extinguishersuse of AFCI's (and also TR Tamper Resistant and WR Weather Resistant receptacles) don't offer much opportunity for [[risk management]]. To be compliant, the price must be paid, and I am bothered that the price is high and the benefits seem low to me, considering that I already have circuit breaker protection of all branch circuits, and GFCI's at all required locations; as well has smoke detectors, areCO notdetectors, enoughand anymorethree itABC seemsfire extinguishers. MandatesThere likeis useplenty of opportunity to debate the merits of AFCI's, arebut [[riskthe avoidance]],mandate notis [[riskIMO management]]a hardship. I also suspect there may be cheaper techniques for preventing Arc Faults or their effects.

[[Special:Contributions/71.10.145.225|71.10.145.225]] ([[User talk:71.10.145.225|talk]]) 15:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

: A referenced summary of authorities' discussions of the cost/benefit and justification for including AFCIs in current electrical codes would be a useful contribution to the article. --[[User:Wtshymanski|Wtshymanski]] ([[User talk:Wtshymanski|talk]]) 21:15, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

: Existing installations are not generally required to be refitted for compliance with later electrical code unless you're remodeling, modifying branch circuits, or changing the certificate of occupancy somehow (e.g., converting to a residential day-care). Under NFPA 70 (2014) you do not have to replace any circuit breakers; you can add an AFCI at the first outlet on each branch requiring protection, provided it is within the distance limit (e.g., 70 ft for 12 AWG), or is wired using a metallic wiring method (metal conduit or armored cables and metal junction boxes). 210.12(A)(5). [[User:Lupinelawyer|Lupinelawyer]] ([[User talk:Lupinelawyer|talk]]) 01:58, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

== Questions on AFCI behaviour under non-ideal power source conditions ==

Not knowing exactly how they work (since that information is lacking), I'd like to know how AFCI's would behave if I switched power over from city main to generator power after a power outage (and also back). Or when there is a thunderstorm in the area. Is "spectral purity" from a generator (or city power) required for proper AFCI operation? I'd hate to fire up my generator only to find all my household AFCI breakers keep false-tripping on it. If this cannot be answered, then I would question whether AFCI technology is sufficiently reliable/mature for mainstream use.--[[Special:Contributions/71.10.145.225|71.10.145.225]] ([[User talk:71.10.145.225|talk]]) 23:36, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

:I researched it a year ago or more but have not gotten around to adding it to the article. I found that arcs have a repeating pulse pattern in the 100 kHz to 2 MHz range and this is the key characteristic that most—if not all—AFCIs are triggering upon. Generators and thunderstorms do not have those characteristics, so an AFCI would be safe with any combination of common power sources, even when struck by lightning. —[[user:EncMstr|EncMstr]] ([[user talk:EncMstr|talk]]) 05:54, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

=== Questions on AFCI behaviour under non-ideal power ''load'' conditions ===

And what of ''loads'' which are subject to drawing occasional transient current spikes ? For example an high-power audio amplifier fed from say an AM radio tuned to a weak station riddled with static interference. Could such loads cause nuisance tripping when AFCI's are utilized ? [[Special:Contributions/2.127.209.195|2.127.209.195]] ([[User talk:2.127.209.195|talk]]) 21:32, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

* This is unlikely since your radio probably has a AC-DC conversion, and whatever noise on the AM station is unlikely to propagate backwards onto the power line due to power supply filtering. From the standpoint of a "load", the AFCI sees an abstract device with a (likely regulated) DC power supply, not what is being received by the radio. Its the same with digital noise in your alarm clock or cell phone or any other device operating from DC conversion - noise gets filtered by the power supply before it shows on on the AFCI line. --[[Special:Contributions/2600:6C48:7006:200:D84D:5A80:173:901D|2600:6C48:7006:200:D84D:5A80:173:901D]] ([[User talk:2600:6C48:7006:200:D84D:5A80:173:901D|talk]]) 23:45, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

==AFCI standby power information requested ==

Does anyone have any information on how much standby power a AFCI circuit breaker requires to maintain operation? I am struggling to find this information. There could be an operational cost having an AFCI draw standy power 24/7 even under no-load conditions.

--[[Special:Contributions/71.10.145.225|71.10.145.225]] ([[User talk:71.10.145.225|talk]]) 23:17, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

== Colocar la información sobre el AFD detector de arcos en español ==

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"trabajo en Siemens Argentina, y me gustaría colocar la información del detector de arco en español. ¿Hay alguien en la comunidad de Wikipedia que está en desacuerdo con ello? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/194.138.184.221|194.138.184.221]] ([[User talk:194.138.184.221|talk]]) 17:15, 10 September 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: El lugar adecuado para preguntar es en la Wikipedia en español. [The proper place to ask is on the Spanish Wikipedia.] —[[user:EncMstr|EncMstr]] ([[user talk:EncMstr|talk]]) 21:15, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

:: How do I translate this category/question? --[[Special:Contributions/71.10.145.225|71.10.145.225]] ([[User talk:71.10.145.225|talk]]) 20:49, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

:::If you are asking what the question/comment means in English, it from someone who says he works at Siemens in Argentina and wonders if a Spanish version of this article would be okay to write. —[[user:EncMstr|EncMstr]] ([[user talk:EncMstr|talk]]) 21:27, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

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== AFCIs warm? ==

I took infrared pictures of my panel and found that the AFCIs were warm. [[File:AFCIs Infrared.jpg|thumb| ]]

None of the other breakers were, and no special loads are on those circuits, certainly not on both of them. Curious if that is inherent to the design and how much energy is wasted by whatever heats them up. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Tenbergen|Tenbergen]] ([[User talk:Tenbergen#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenbergen|contribs]]) 23:07, 12 January 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

* this "thermal image" looks suspicious. Note the sharp corner and edge transitions between hot and cold regions. Plus it would be better to take such an image with the cover removed.--

[[Special:Contributions/2600:6C48:7006:200:D84D:5A80:173:901D|2600:6C48:7006:200:D84D:5A80:173:901D]] ([[User talk:2600:6C48:7006:200:D84D:5A80:173:901D|talk]]) 23:52, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

<s>It’s really amazing how much people use talk pages for electrical topics on Wikipedia to post DIY questions. I don’t think that’s what the tag pages for. Is there a talk page for the talk page where we can talk about these types of problems with the DIYers on the talk pages?</s>

== Power fault circuit interrupter ==

There are several references in this article to Power Fault Circuit Interrupters, but I cannot find any further information about them online. All I found are brief mentions in sites advertising proprietary receptacle products. I am marking these references as "citation needed" for now, but I think it would be good if someone with more knowledge in this area can either find citations or remove the references altogether. [[Special:Contributions/75.71.97.154|75.71.97.154]] ([[User talk:75.71.97.154|talk]]) 03:30, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

== Overspecific Limitations ==

There are a few claims under the limitations heading which seem pretty irrelevant for example:

<blockquote>Also, AFCIs provide no specific protection against ''glowing'' connections also known as a [[High Resistance Connection]], excess current, high line voltages or low line voltages. AFCI circuit breakers include a standard inverse-time circuit breaker. Glowing connections occur when relatively high current exists in a relatively large resistance object. Heat comes from power dissipation. This energy, when dissipated in a small junction area, can generate temperatures above 1000 °C (1800 °F) and can ignite most flammable materials.</blockquote>

Might as well say a bullet proof vest does not protect against drowning. Shall we keep this text or clean it up?

[[User:Bostwickenator|Bostwickenator]] ([[User talk:Bostwickenator|talk]]) 14:36, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

== National Electrical Code cleanup needed ==

Right now we have a nice summary of the US NEC requirements in 1999 and then new paragraphs for each year stating only the differences of how the Code changed from the previous revision. It is interesting as a history, but not so useful for people wanting to understand the present situation. It would be good if somebody merged them into a new first paragraph that summarizes the ''current'' state of the Electrical Code. [[User:Hackerb9|Ben]] ([[User talk:Hackerb9|talk]]) 04:12, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

:NB: the version of the current electrical code adopted (required) varies by state, so I favor keeping the current presentation. [[User:Gorbag42|Gorbag42]] ([[User talk:Gorbag42|talk]]) 01:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

== arc lamps ==

There is a section on causes of false positive triggering. I do wonder, though, about arc lamps, such as fluorescent lamps or HID lamps, which obviously also have an arc. Do they avoid them, and if so, how? [[User:Gah4|Gah4]] ([[User talk:Gah4|talk]]) 10:06, 20 March 2021 (UTC)