Betawiki being hosted by Wikimedia: Difference between revisions

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:''This article is about [[translatewiki.net]] (prior to 2009, known as "Betawiki"). For Beta versions of the MediaWiki software, see [[mw:Roadmap]] and [[mw:Version#Beta]]. For Wikimedia's cluster of beta wikis, see [[mw:Beta cluster]]. Previous proposal: [[Translations wiki]]. For the current website named "BetaWiki", see https://betawiki.net/''

This page is for discussion about the possibility of Wikimedia hosting Betawiki, currently hosted independently by [[User:Nikerabbit|Nikerabbit]]. Betawiki was a test wiki, but has been transformed into being the best place to make global translations to the [[System message]]s. It is an important process of keeping MediaWiki and other Wikimedia projects up to date. Nike has made a lot of changes to the MediaWiki to make translations and export of the system messages easier then anywhere els. The idea of moving Betawiki to Wikimedia was brought up on #mediawiki-i18n and Nike seemed keen on the subject and said that the main reason that it hadn't been done yet was because of lack of response from Wikimedia's side.

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This page is for discussion about the possibility of Wikimedia hosting [http://nike.users.idler.fi/betawiki/Main_Page Betawiki], currently hosted independently by [[User:Nikerabbit|Nikerabbit]]. Betawiki was a test wiki, but has been transformed into being the best place to make global translations to the [[Help:System message|system messages]]. It is an important process of keeping MediaWiki and other Wikimedia projects up to date. Nike has made a lot of changes to the MediaWiki to make translations and export of the system messages easier then anywhere else. The idea of moving Betawiki to Wikimedia was brought up on #mediawiki-i18n and Nike seemed keen on the subject and said that the main reason that it hadn't been done yet was because of lack of response from Wikimedia's side.

:''If you are interested, sign your username at [[Proposals for new projects#Betawiki|Proposals for new projects]]''

= Proposal =

== Aims ==

The aim of the interface translations wiki is to allow any user of [[MediaWiki]] to edit the interface messages of any language via the [[Help:MediaWiki namespace|MediaWiki namespace]] on a central wiki. Previously this could only be done by [[administrator]]s on a particular wiki or by people who understood how to edit the files in [[CVS]].

== Benefits ==

Unlike editing messages files in a program code repository (and via code review), the wiki makes it easy to collaborate, and to discuss translations before they go live. You also get the chance to see your changes immediately on the translations wiki. It prevents the need for pages such as <s>[[Requests for MessagesXX.php update]]</s> (deleted).

Unlike editing the MediaWiki namespace, changes made here can be applied to any wiki rather than only the wiki on which you are an administrator. Previously, changes made on one wiki were never applied to other projects, meaning users of, for example, [[Wikibooks]], had to separately edit the namespace and manually copy over changes that had already been made at [[Wikipedia]].

This wiki is open to all MediaWiki users, not only [[Wikimedian]]s, meaning edits can have value outside of [[Wikimedia]] projects.

=== Protection ===

The MediaWiki namespace is [[Help:Administration#Page protection|protected]] by default on all [[Help:Installation|installations]] of MediaWiki. On the interface translations wiki, the namespace will be unprotected. This means users do not need to go through any bureaucracy before being able to contribute. Everyone will be able to edit.

=== Security ===

The lack of protection of the namespace does have security implications since the [[HTML restriction]]s are different to the other namespaces. Some of the interface messages allow arbitrary HTML, there is a possibility that malicious users could insert scripts which could, for example, steal your [[:en:HTTP cookie|cookies]] for this ___domain, crash your browser, and cause pop-up windows.

A way of disabling JavaScript, which will prevent most of the problems, will be looked into before opening this wiki.

Users will be warned when they [[Help:Logging in|create an account]] that they should not use the same password they use of any other site, making the risks of cookies being stolen fairly insignificant. They will also be warned of potential problems, so they can take their own precautions against these. For example, they may want to ensure no other windows are open in their browser in case their browser is crashed, or they may want to disable JavaScript. However, these issues are no greater than any other website created by someone you do not [[Web of trust|trust]].

=== Location ===

It is proposed that the wiki shall be located on a subdomain of [//mediawiki.org/ mediawiki.org] so that any cookie-stealing attacks cannot affect Wikimedia project domains such as wikipedia.org and wikimedia.org. Nevertheless, a subdomain should be used so that mediawiki.org remains available for other uses, should all security issues be resolved.

All languages will be on one wiki, with users selecting the language they want to translate in their [[Special:Preferences|preferences]].

Possible names for the subdomain include:

* <code>translate.mediawiki.org</code> (might be confusing with general [[translation requests]])

* <code>language.mediawiki.org</code> (matches the [[Language.php]] filenames which is, in one of the files effectively edited after a translation sync)

* <code>i18n.mediawiki.org</code> (an abbreviation for [[:en:Internationalization and localization|Internationalization and localization]])

= Discussion =

== Betawiki to join Incubator ==

If Betawiki were to be moved to Wikimedia, there would only be two choices, creating a separate project (beta.wikimedia.org?) or joining it with an exciting project. test.wikipedia.org was my first thought, but that was before I learned about Incubator. The only problem is the confusion Incubator could get. It was started to see if a new project has any grounds of getting created (mainly new languages), and it would be great if they could try to translate the interface on the same wiki, but Betawiki is also for already existing languages. I'm translating system messages into Icelandic not because I'm starting a new Wiki, but because I want Wikipedia's interface to be fully translated. --[[User:Steinninn|Steinninn]] 00:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

:As I told siebrand and Nike, I think this is a great idea. But you may get better response on [//lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Foundation-l]. '''[[User:Cbrown1023|<span style="color:green">Cbrown1023</span>]]''' '''<small>[[User talk:Cbrown1023|<span style="color:#002bb8">talk</span>]]</small>''' 01:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

::The reason for merging it with Incubator is that the project that represent a new language will get the instant gratification of getting their user interface translated without there being a need for developers to do anything. Also when the language commission is to come to the conclusion if an incubator project has the required maturity, they can just change the language and see for themselves. [[User:GerardM|GerardM]] 06:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Do you mean user interface translation as in namespaces? Most system messages a sysop can change now. <b><i><font color="#FF00FF">~Kylu ([[User:Kylu|u]]|[[User talk:Kylu|t]]) </font></i></b> 19:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

::::Kylu: Normally when a sysop is changing the system messages they are only changing them locally. Meaning it has no effect on other wikis. Thus translations should not be done locally. Nike has changed the software on Betawiki a bit so that when changes are made to the interface (system messages) they can easily be exported and put into the MediaWiki software to be used on any wiki that choses to. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this correctly. It might be best to go to Betawiki and see for yourself. --[[User:Steinninn|Steinninn]] 20:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::Yes, check out Betawiki if you haven't. '''[[User:Cbrown1023|<span style="color:green">Cbrown1023</span>]]''' '''<small>[[User talk:Cbrown1023|<span style="color:#002bb8">talk</span>]]</small>'''

::*Steinninn, Translating the interface involves understanding some of the mechnics. Often I find it better to test the translations locally before committing it globally. (For example, from time to time we still find inaccuracies in the zh: and yue: interfaces.) It would be great if the incubator could serve this purpose. [[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]] 05:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

:::* I support joinning incubator and betawiki, provided, [[User:nikerabbit|nikerabbit]] says tht it is a good idea. He knows the technical background stuff, after all ... (see also [[:incubator:Incubator_talk:Policy/First_draft#Internationalization]]. --[[User:Purodha|Purodha Blissenbach]] 00:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I use betawiki, Nike is doing a good job there. I support anything he thinks is suitable. Hopefully, moving it to Wikimedia servers will solve the current problem with page loading and saving speed. I support giving him shell access to this wiki if that's possible. I also think the localization wiki would benefit from Siebrands Use case descriptions (why are they gone?). ~~[[user:helix84|helix84]] 22:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

== MediaWiki.org? ==

And what about MediaWiki.org? It seems more proper place to work on Mediawiki interface on Mediawiki wiki. --[[User:Li-sung|Li-sung]] 10:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

: If the main function is to allow easy exportation, and importation, of the language environment, then : Yes, that would be my take too.

:Actually, I would expect the messages of any MediaWiki to be easily-exportable, so I'd expect a function for that to be standard. But the documentation and localisation of MediaWiki are after all a part of that project, so you'd expect the normative translations to be there as well.

: Of course, making things easier on all MediaWiki's would allow a new language on Incubator (or a new wiki budding anywhere else, for that matter) to first translate their stuff locally, and then when they are really satisfied with it, to submit it to the official ___location. [[User:Mysha|Mysha]]

:: MediaWiki.org is not the right environment for localisation. It does not have the instant gratification that people that work on a new language have in the Incubator. [[User:GerardM|GerardM]] 20:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

::: Thanks for the comment, Gerard. Do you think this is covered in my last paragraph above? [[User:Mysha|Mysha]]

::::Doing translations locally is not a good idea either; only for the messages that include specific information for a project should be translated locally. All other messages should be translated once and translated well. In this way all the projects in a language benefit. [[User:GerardM|GerardM]] 21:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

:I agree with GerardM in two reasons:

:#MediaWiki.org is for documentation, not setting files. LanguageXX.php may be included into the package, but not provided on wiki.

:#It doesn't benefit more than the current situation. Now we have those people who are working on a new language work on two wikis, and that is our headache. Their main workplace is Incubator, so considering for their convenience, Incubator would be the best place.--[[User:Aphaia|Aphaia]] 09:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with [[User:GerardM|GerardM]] and [[User:Aphaia|Aphaia]]. Beyond the instant benefit argument:

* Translators on Betawiki tend to be lonely warriors, while even those not involved in translation will be able to see translated interface messages on incubator, and thus are more likely to get involved, even if they only comment, or make suggestions.

* A translator is usually performing better when 'immersed' in the target language :-) which makes the groving content in the new language a more supporting testing environment on incubatore, if compared to betawiki. --[[User:Purodha|Purodha Blissenbach]] 23:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest <code>translate.mediawiki.org</code> subdomain for betawiki to move to. I think that merging with Incubator isn't the best idea because of mixing of content and interface.<br />— [[User:Danny B.|Danny B.]] 18:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

:I know, and I think this is a good idea, but the original idea was to make it easier for those who are working on a new language. If they can translate on Incubator, they have immediately their interface translated. [[User:SPQRobin|SPQRobin]] 18:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

::There is risk, they will translate instead of general purpose mediawiki inteface only their interface with references to Wikipedia, Commons etc. With styles, scripts that Wikipedias usualy have (like charinsert in Mediawiki:Edittools or MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning) but is not in standard installation. --[[User:Li-sung|Li-sung]] 07:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

:::There would be a risk on every wiki. And the example you mentioned isn't a good one; MediaWiki:Edittools hasn't to be translated, this is just ''optional'' what a wiki ''can'' use. We are talking about a wiki for ''translating''. [[User:SPQRobin|SPQRobin]] 14:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

==Requirements==

Let's just assume we want to have the extension Translate activated on Incubator. Which requirements should we meet and which criteria must be met before this can actually happen? Please feel free to add and mark with {{tl|done}} when met. Cheers! [[User:Siebrand|Siebrand]] 13:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

===Criteria from extension Translate perspective===

*Extension Translate should be installed, enabling users having the role 'translator' to edit the MediaWiki namespace and prepare translations for MediaWiki and MediaWiki extensions, as well as other external applications.

*A way to activate support for new material to be translated (supported extensions, other external applications)

*Identify which content from Betawiki should be moved to Incubator

*Identify which new names the Betawiki content should get on Incubator

** How about "Translation/langcode" or "Interface/langcode" - no "/langcode" for common stuff. --[[User:Purodha|Purodha Blissenbach]] 11:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

*...

===Requirements from Wikimedia perspective===

*Wikimedia sysadmins must trust the code enough to run it on their servers

*...

===Requirements from Incubator perspective===

*An interface language translation and test policy needs to be set up.

**Currently the process with quite informal and interatively. Developers commit once there's volume or if a translator requests a commit. We assume good faith. A proper assessment on the trustworthyness of those requesting a translator status is IMO key. Anything to make it hard to get stuff committed, will scare people off and keep them working through bugzilla. [[User:Siebrand|Siebrand]] 21:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

*A kind of separate interface language project type need to be set up, since translations, both new and ongoing ones, are not always, and not necessarily, part of a specific new wiki project.

**Just as with the current Betawiki project we only need a few pages to support process and a few pages for HOWTO. Also see my comment below. [[User:Siebrand|Siebrand]] 21:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

*Likewise, existing content of betawiki needs to be integrated following a systemic path, and migrated, once the way has been determined.

**Migration of content from Betawiki will be quite easy. There are a few pages with 'HOWTO' stuff and most the of languages that are being worked on actively have no content that needs to be transferred. Languages with over ''x'' open differences compared to SVN version need to be sorted out before things are being moved. Any content transfers from Betawiki to Incubator should be manual transfers and I estimate it to be less than 25 pages, all concerned with process. [[User:Siebrand|Siebrand]] 21:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

*** That sounds fairly simple. I was believing, all the lists of special message properties, etc., were individual pages on betawiki. -- [[User:Purodha|Purodha Blissenbach]] 11:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

****The previous version of the extension was much more complex. The extension is now much more simple and more user friendly to handle. It does supply less information than it did, but also without all the overhead. It is really only [[Special:Translate]] with some process pages around it at the moment. [[User:Siebrand|Siebrand]] 06:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

== Plan ==

How about making step-by-step plan for the whole process? It also helps to identify the problems me might face if/when translation is moved to incubator.

I've written some notes and questions from my perspective, and the requirements above have more. I hope this will ensure smooth transitions when/if it's done. – [[User:Nikerabbit|Nikerabbit]] 08:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

=== Planning ===

* Identify possible problems

* Identify actions that need to be done

* Gather required information

* Decide the little details

=== Installation ===

* Translate extension is in svn

* Get developer to accept/review the extension

* Get someone to activate the extension

* > Does wmf have all the extension files available for Translate?

* Setup some group for translator rights

* > Setup new namespaces or use one of the existing ones?

* > Some features not possible with at svn version (adding languages without adding them to Names.php)

:* CleanChanges changes list (not needed, just extra cuteness)

:* Filtering recent changes by language?

* Make policies?

=== Migration ===

* Move pages

:*Mostly from Translating: namespace, should be easy to move whatever method preferred

:*Translations from Mediawiki: namespace, ''a lot'' of pages; not necessary to move (translation histories are lost in this case); contains lot of outdated pages and some pages that should be filtered out, if moved

*Move "users"

:*Impossible to move user accounts, some of the users probably have an account on incubator already

:*Update links and help pages (BetaWiki, en.wiki, meta, others?)

=== Running ===

* Who handles giving permissions?

**Local bureaucrats [[User:Siebrand|Siebrand]] 10:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

* Who handles exporting (including, validation for non-language problems not seen by scripts)?

**Probably the same people that are doing this stuff now. Nike, Raymond, Rotemliss, Siebrand. [[User:Siebrand|Siebrand]] 10:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

* Who supports translators with translation/Translate-extension?

**''The community''. Probably those that are taking care of user support at Betawiki. [[User:Siebrand|Siebrand]] 10:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

* Note: time to changes to svn to show up on incubator is '''longer''' from what is was in BetaWiki

**Interesting question. [[User:Siebrand|Siebrand]] 10:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

* Note: but the page load times are faster

**Wee! :P [[User:Siebrand|Siebrand]] 10:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

== Yes ==

It's ran by a developer and they should be respected for their work.

He also can help mediawiki users and is of purpose to the foundation.--[[User:Arceus fan|Arceus fan]] 20:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

== See also ==

*[[Interface translations wiki]] <small>(legacy)</small>

[[Category:Proposed projects - language]]