Talk:Mr. Popo: Difference between revisions

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== look... ==

{{WikiProject Japan|importance=Low}}

{{WikiProject Anime and manga|importance=Low|dragon-ball-work-group=yes}}

STOP MAKING THE BLACK FACE THING MR POPO IS NOT BASED ON BLACKS! <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:151.202.88.118|151.202.88.118]] ([[User talk:151.202.88.118|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/151.202.88.118|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small>

{{WikiProject Fictional characters}}

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Please stop vandalizing the page. The information is based on the style of caricature -- and the fact that protestors thought the similarity was striking enough to force the company to alter the image. Japan has a history of producing images such as these, back to when it was Occupied Japan, shortly after WWII, and has continued to produce such images.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon#Racism] No one is saying the production of such caricatures has been intentionally racist. But the fact is -- just as in other societies -- the depiction of blacks in such a manner became an accepted practice in Japan, but because of different demographics and different histories, our cultures have evolved differently regarding sensibilities toward race and racism. What is acceptable in Japan is not now acceptable in the United States, and vice versa.

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I, myself, wasn't aware of Mr. Popo until someone inserted the reference in the "blackface" article, but when I checked it out, there is no question that Mr. Popo is darky iconography. Djinns are an Middle Eastern thing, and djinns are often black. And the fact is no other people are caricatured in such a fashion -- with big, googly eyes; prominent, red lips; and inky skin. I'd like to refer you to this.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface#Blackface_and_darky_iconography] Perhaps you'll think differently after you read the section of the article on [[blackface]]. Peace. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 11:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

djinns aren't africans, hey reverned deeceevoice stop doing this, if your a black supremist and i suggest you stop. (unsigned post by [[User:Synthe]])

Djinns are, indeed, often black Africans. The Arab world has a long history of enslavement of African peoples. Djinns, for all their magical powers, are often thought of as slaves with masters. (Everyone knows the tale of Aladdin and his magic lamp, where the djinn, or genie, was forced to grant the owner of the lamp three wishes.)

:''Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim''

:''as-salaam alikum''

:''O White Djinn, Radiance of Mohammad''

:''king of all spirits within me''

:''O Black Djinn, shadow of myself''

:''AWAY, destroy my enemy''

:''--and if you do not''

:''then be considered a traitor to Allah''

:''--by virtue of the charm''

:''La illaha ill'Allah''

:::::Mohammad ar-Rasul Allah

The folklore of Maylasia (an Islamic country), for example, features almost 200 different specifically black djinn, some of them imported from Arab culture. African American actor Rex Ingram[http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/1684/Rex_Ingram_symbol_of_twentieth_century_acting] played the genie (djinn) in the 1940 movie ''The Thief of Baghdad''.[http://www.answers.com/topic/the-thief-of-bagdad-film] (That's his face on the box.) They ''specifically'' cast a black man in the role for the very reason that djinn are commonly thought of as being black. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 21:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you have any proof that Mr Popo is a parody of blacks? '''why won't you watch the show yourself?''' that person also talks about White Djinn's so none of that makes sense (unsigned post by [[User:Synthe]]).

Synthe, I appreciate your willingness to discuss (I consider "debate" an inappropriate word) the matter here. However, I restored the text because I did add citation -- and you presented absolutely no reason/justification in your edit note when you deleted it, which is not appropriate Wiki procedure. If you have questions or concerns, please let me know. Peace. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 11:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

H-m-m. I just noticed that, for some reason, the references don't seem to be registering in the document. If you enter the edit screen, you can recover the link I inserted. Perhaps you know what the problem is. Meanwhile, I'll investigate and see what can be done to rectify the matter. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 11:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

GIVE ME A GOOD REASON WHY YOU THINK THAT MR POPO IS BASED ON BLACKS AND BLACK FACE! (unsigned post) [[User: Synthe]]

:It's not what I think. I couldn't care less about some Japanese cartoon. And, not meaning to be impolite, neither do I care what you think on the subject. This isn't about personal opinions; it's about facts. The game has been assailed as being racist. That's the point. And that is indisputable. The information as presented in the article is objective, factual and sourced, as required. So, what's your beef? Furthermore, I am not seeing-impaired. You needn't communicate in all caps. In cyberspace, it's considered rude; you're screaming at me. Chill. Finally, it is not appropriate practice simply to delete whole portions of adequately sourced text without some explanation, some justification. This is the second time you've deleted the sourced version of the text without providing any justification/reason whatsoever. If you continue to do so, I'll have to suggest that action be taken to prevent you from continuing to do so. Also, please sign your posts. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 21:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Dragon ball is not a game its a Tv show, just because you think some character which you never heard or seen before, is based on blacks because of their apperance doesn't mean thats what it is, mr popo is not based on blacks the creator of the show based him on a wise hindu dijinn teacher. Thats like saying a doll colored black is racist aginist blacks and a example of blackface when the truth is that its not. futhurmore you know nothing about dragon ball or mr popo snice you never seen a episode that showed him, consider reading the article about him. (another unsigned post by [[User:Synthe]]

:Again, it doesn't matter what I think. The material presented is NPOV and properly sourced. What don't you understand? ''Follow the link and read the material.'' Just because ''you'' don't think it's racist doesn't mean it isn't. Again, your personal opinion is utterly irrelevant here. Please stop reverting text without justification. You are not a new editor, so you must be aware of the [[Wikipedia: 3RR]]. The fact that you may disagree with something in the text is not sufficient grounds to delete properly sourced information. Darky iconography has become part of Japanese culture, and Mr. Popo clearly is that. No one has alleged that the creator of Dragonball is racist, or that his intentions were/are racist. But the style of caricature is viewed as racist -- and has been viewed as racist for as long as it's been around, since the late 1800's. By the 1960's it pretty much disappeared here in the U.S. because of new, wider-spread attitudes against such kinds of depictions. In Japan, there simply haven't been enough black people historically to object to such depictions. It's tantamount to having a U.S. animation series with a short, bucktoothed, squinty-eyed (with round spectacles), yellow-skinned Japanese character who kow-tows constantly, says, "Ah-so" all the time and speaks with a heavy accent, and who has a camera permanently strapped on. People find it objectionable. It's a cultural thing. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 22:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

::Isnt that your opinion? (Another unsigned post by [[User: Synthe]])

This[http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/newforms/] isn't. It's the source quoted in the text you keep deleting. You've provided nothing but your personal opinion -- and on a matter which isn't even relevant to the disputed text. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 00:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You provided nothing but what some person thinks rather then using common sense. that article only mentions "Mr. Popo, a Dragonball Z character, is a rotund genie, dwarfish, with pointed ears, jet-black skin, and large red lips. He is a loyal servant." yet he is a loyal servant to a green alien man with pointy ears and two antenna's,NOT a white person. So is this about blackface or slave? (Another unsigned post by [[User:Synthe]])

I reinserted the text after I provided a(nother) ''learned source'' (which is what is required for appropriate documentation), who is not the only person who sees Mr. Popo as a racist caricature. Otherwise, the company would not have altered the character's appearance in U.S. distribution. The uproar/outrage over the character was signficant enough for a Japanese corporate entity to alter Mr. Popo's image -- at no small cost. The other link is to "Japan's Bigoted Export to Kids." That's now two sources of documentation. There are ample additional examples about the kind of darky iconography the Japanese routinely engage in all over the net.[http://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/bashing/racist_jynx_01.html] It's part of Japanese culture. Here, you've provided zilch -- nothing substantive in your edit notes and nothing on the talk page to discredit or prove the information false -- and on Wikipedia, that means the text stays. Stop acting like an ''[[otaku]]'' and be rational/reasonable. I've now given you a 3RR warning. Again. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 07:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

you gived me a link to a character from pokemon..... also i'm not a otaku, you still have no proof that mr popo was based on blackface. you sound like one of those idiots who cry on what you "THINK" is racism. so if mr popo was pink instead of black it isnt racist?

Heres a quote from the article "Japan's Bigoted Export to Kids."

"Neither icon bears even the slightest resemblance to Jynx or Mr. Popo, however. Known to millions of children through cartoons and product tie-ins, Jynx and Mr. Popo depict descendants of Africa through the bigoted lens of white supremacy. These stereotypical characters could adversely affect black children's malleable self- images."

White supremacy? what the heck? mr popo is not a sterotypical character of blacks, his characteristics is of a wise teacher, (another unsigned post by [[User:Synthe]])

:Synthe, you're arguing with a learned source. The quote you present, in fact, supports the text you keep deleting. Again, your personal opinion here does not count. While you were authoring your last post, I was busy documenting your edit warring. You are in violation of the 3RR -- and that's since I added the second source. Your actions are counterproductive and not in the best interests of the project. Stop. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 16:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting how things pop up when they're least expected. Was looking for online references to the blatant racism of the movie "Gremlins" (today's featured article, which -- no surprise -- doesn't even ''mention'' the controversy), and came across this. Now, tell me. What's the difference between the genie (further evidence to suppoprt my contention about the blackness of djinns/genies) in this cartoon[http://tesla.liketelevision.com/liketelevision/tuner.php?channel=914&format=tv&theme=guide] and Mr. Popo? Answer: not a hell of a lot. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 09:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Synthe, I appreciate your willingness to accommodate some of the language; but I also restored the language with the link to Ferris U. The accompanying edit note explains why. Tell me, do you know if the language about the company actually ''removing'' Mr. Popo's lips is accurate? I somehow doubt the character doesn't have lips. Did they actually remove them or merely make them less prominent (downsize them or change their color)? If the current language isn't accurate -- since you seem to be familiar with the cartoon and I admittedly am not -- would you see to it? Thanks. :) [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 02:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

So now you're back to removing all the sourced text and both sources and inserting your own POV language "confused" -- as though the learned sources and the protesting public are somehow mistaken. You're being intentionally obtuse. Again, it doesn't matter what your personal opinion is. This isn't a blog. I've restored the relevant text. Please refrain from edit warring on this matter. It's to the detriment of the project. If you continue to do so I will ask that you be blocked again. If your behavior persists, you may be barred from editing the article entirely. And, again, do you have any information about Mr. Popo's lips? Does he actually not have any in the American version of the game? Have they been completely removed? [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 11:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

you are using inaccurate material i looked at http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/newforms/ myself and it no where explains why mr popo is racist. just because it's a source DOES NOT MEAN ITS ALWAYS RIGHT. (another unsigned post by [[User:Synthe]])

In this case, it is a learned source -- and the information provided explains the charge of racism vis-a-vis the Mr. Popo caricature (read the entire page for context -- not just that subsection) and places it in historical context. As simply a random, lowly editor (as we all pretty much are), you are not in a position to challenge a learned source. You may present a countervailing learned source, if you have one -- but nothing more. The text I've inserted into this article links Mr. Popo very clearly to darky iconography (he's at the ''top of the page'', for God's sake) and also explains its historical context in Japan. Darky iconography is part of Japanese culture. Now, if it would make you feel better to find and include some quote or something in which DragonBall's creator (or someone of note) speaks about how it was not an ''intention'' to create an offensive character, then you're certainly invited/entitled to do so. But your vandalism of the article is unacceptable. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 21:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

a image above a page does not prove anything, that article does not say anything about japan.

also '''you haven't even seen''' mr popo in that show for yourself so your opinion is invalid. (another unsigned post by [[User:Synthe]])

For the last time, I don't have an opinion. Nowhere here have I advanced my own opinion; I've merely reported the opinion of another. The other information, including the link to Carol Boston Weatherford, was here before I came to the piece. We're simply retreading old ground, and I have no more patience with this or you. I've offered you a suggestion. Take it or don't. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 21:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

"don't" look i don't care if you have a source, explain how it is accurate.

:deeceevoice, do you think [http://www.kamat.org/picture.asp?Name=4843.jpg] and [http://www.exoticindiaart.com/product/PC14] are meant to be offensive? I recall this article once made reference to such a similarity, and also gave [[Wikipedia:NPOV#Undue_weight|due weight]] to this minority, largely unjustified idea. But now it contains a single, very long POV statement promoting a narrow, ignorant and otherwise totally unjustified viewpoint. Why not simply say that "some have noticed a similarity to blackface", rather than openly accusing it of being "based on blackface", because I have never heard of Toriyama admitting (or even any non-American source claiming) that the latter is the case. [[User:Elvenscout742|elvenscout742]] 00:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

:He's also older and more important than that green man with antennae whom you are claiming is his "master" to support this idea that he is a stereotypical "slave" type. Kami-samas come and go, but Popo simply always is. [[User:Elvenscout742|elvenscout742]] 00:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, my opinion isn't important. And, no. The photo link you provided is not darky iconography. There's an obvious difference between a figure with dark skin and red lips and one with dark skin, googly eyes and oversize, exaggerated, red lips. The source and information are accurate. And the earlier contentions that a ''djinn'' is connected with Hinduism are absurd. A ''djinn'' is Middle Eastern in origin, and he (Mr. Popo) is a black African. The text is accurate as it stands. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 04:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

mr popo is african? WHAT are you on? [[User:Synthe|Synth]] 14:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[[Wikipedia:Civility]] [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 15:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)