Talk:Dwarf planet/Naming: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 02:13, 18 September 2006

Latest revision as of 09:52, 18 April 2022

(602 intermediate revisions by 67 users not shown)

Line 1:

{{Archives}}

==The problem and how we can fix it==

I am starting this subpage since there is a real problem with the naming of the "dwarf planets". Simply put, there is no rule for it. What we now have for the "dwarf planet" names are:

* [[1 Ceres]]

* [[Pluto]] and

* [[136199 Eris]] (recently renamed to [[Eris (dwarf planet)]] and then moved back as there is an ongoing discussion as to [[Talk:136199 Eris#Requested move|moving it]] and the move was done against consensus).

== Key Word: "Planet" ==

So we now have three different styles of names for each of three dwarf planets. Ideally, there would be a consistent way of describing these objects, yet in the current confusion there is none.

Yes, I am just a layman and don't have letters after my title, but I think the keyword here is "planet". Whether Pluto or Eris are categorized as dwarf (or small) planets is irrelevant. They are still planets by the IAU's definitions of planets and their subcategories. Therefore, what is wrong with having Pluto as part of an exhibit of the solar system. For that matter, what is wrong with adding Eris to our exhibits and textbooks?

If there is to be a consistent way of handling this new class of solar system object, then we Wikipedians need to decide how they are to handled as a group. Options include:

--[[User:Slaapz|Slaapz]] 05:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

# Leave the things alone at this time.

# Use the proper name (with the minor planet desgiantion) for all "dwarf planets". (So [[Pluto]] → [[134340 Pluto]] and [[Eris (dwarf planet)]] returns to [[136199 Eris]] [or stays there, as it appears to be hopping about between the names]).

# Suffix all "dwarf planets" with (dwarf planet). (So [[Pluto]] → [[Pluto (dwarf planet)]] and [[Ceres]] → [[Ceres (dwarf planet)]] and [[136199 Eris]] → [[Eris (dwarf planet)]])

# Use no suffix (as with most of the full fledged planets). (So [[1 Ceres]] → [[Ceres]] (which is currently the page for the Roman goddess Ceres) and [[Eris (dwarf planet)]]/[[136199 Eris]] → [[Eris]] (which is currently a diambiguation page but was about the goddess Eris until the "dwarf planet" was named).

# Use both the minor planet number prefix and the (dwarf planet) suffix. (So we end up with [[1 Ceres (dwarf planet)]], [[134340 Pluto (dwarf planet)]], and [[136199 Eris (dwarf planet)]].

# Use the common-name (see [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)]]). Then going by how well-known an object is, and their various disambiguation problems, we would end up using [[Pluto]], [[Ceres (dwarf planet)]] and [[Eris (dwarf planet)]]

:That is an interesting question. You need to realize that this category is set to expand, if not explode. There are as many as a dozen more objects that can quality as a "dwarf planet" under the IAU rules. See the table "possible dwarf planets" in [[dwarf planet]]. Also, while the word "planet" is in "dwarf planet", the dwarf planets technically are part of the category of [[minor planet]]s. There are now over 135,000 minor planets known, and more are constntly being cataloged.

A related issue in how to handle the direct names of these objects, as they invariably also refer to a deity. Once again, each "dwarf planet" has a different default behavior for its name. [[Pluto]] is for the "dwarf planet", [[Ceres]] is for the goddess, and [[Eris]] disambiguates. My advice at this time is to leave this alone, but it may be worthy of some thought for the future.

::The net result is that astronomers distinguish between the 8 planets (excluding Pluto now) and the other solar system bodies. Dwarf planets are a second tier of objects. With only three such objects designated, I can see what you want them included in exhibits and textbooks (and certainly the dwarf planets should be mentioned in textbooks). However, once you have over a dozen of these objects, your exhibits will begin to get a bit crowded, and the expectation is that there are many more dwarf planets out beyond [[Eris (dwarf planet)|Eris]] waiting to be discovered. After all, [[90377 Sedna|Sedna]] is almost as far away as Eris, but was discovered near its closest approach to the Sun. This indicates that there are more Sedna-like objects out there, and modern studies of the [[formation and evolution of the solar system]] lead many astronomers to believe that there are hundreds of such objects waiting to be found. --[[User:ems57fcva|EMS]] | [[User_talk:ems57fcva|Talk]] 16:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

:::Dwarf planets are not minor planets, that's all speculation.<small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Something14|Something14]] ([[User talk:Something14|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Something14|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

::::Yes they are, at least per IAU definitions.[[User:Nergaal|Nergaal]] ([[User talk:Nergaal|talk]]) 10:54, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::The IAU web page describing the outcome of the 2006 vote appears to suggest otherwise, indicating that there are three categories: ''planet'', ''dwarf planet'', and ''SSSB''s (which can also be described by the older term ''minor planets''). Part of the confusion stems from the fact that there is no clear-cut statement as to what is what, which has caused problems for Wikipedia since the vote occurred. --'''[[User:Ckatz|Ckatz]]'''''<small>[[User_talk:Ckatz|<sup style="color:green;">chat</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Ckatz|<sub style="color:red;">spy</sub>]]</small>'' 11:15, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::#Pluto (pronounced /ˈpluːtoʊ/, from Latin: Plūto, Greek: Πλούτων), also designated 134340 Pluto...

:::::#Eris (pronounced /ˈɪərɪs/, also /ˈɛrɪs/ as in Greek Έρις[6]), formally designated 136199 Eris and....

:::::#Ceres (pronounced /ˈsɪəriːz/,[15] or as Latin: Cerēs), also designated 1 Ceres (see minor planet names), is the

::::::These are the first few words on the articles of dwarf planets. What do you think the numbers 134340, 136199 and 1 mean? I bet it is not the designated minor planet number, but a drunk official throwing some dices.[[User:Nergaal|Nergaal]] ([[User talk:Nergaal|talk]]) 14:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

==Archive==

In any case, it is my hope that we can get editors from all three of these pages and the [[dwarf planet]] page to agree on something here. Otherwise there are more edit wars in store on this issue. --[[User:ems57fcva|EMS]] | [[User_talk:ems57fcva|Talk]] 02:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Archived talk through the end of October 2006. [[User:RandomCritic|RandomCritic]] 12:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

All the new dwarf planets soon to be reclassified will obviously fall under the same rules. -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]]

==Opinions==

* Option 2 or 5 are good with me -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 02:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

* Number 4 will never happen. [[User:RandomCritic|RandomCritic]] 02:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

* Leave 'em alone. Eris needed disambiguation, but Pluto and Ceres do not. There is no need for all articles in the same class to have the same disambiguation wording in the article name. '''Disambiguation is not categorization.''' Browse through a dozen random categories and you will find that the articles in them are sometimes disambiguated, sometimes not. Sometimes you get TV shows or manga articles with all subarticles dabbed this way, but it looks fannish. Alas, at this time, I don't believe Eris is anywhere near being the ''primary topic'' for that term, but eventually it may be. That isn't the case for Pluto and Ceres, and Ceres is affected by a disambiguation (from [[Ceres]]) pattern that has been in place for decades and is well understood by astronomers and laymen. --[[User:Dhartung|Dhartung]] | [[User talk:Dhartung|Talk]] 02:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

* Eris should go back to [[136199 Eris]]. Ceres and all other dwarf planets, asteroids, or whatever, should keep (or get) numbers. Pluto should be the sole exception and stay [[Pluto]] (exceptions are ''okay''). _└&nbsp;^{'''[[User:Osgoodelawyer|<font color="blue">OzLawyer</font>]]'''}&nbsp;/&nbsp;_{''<font color="black">[[User Talk:Osgoodelawyer|talk]]</font>''}&nbsp;^┐ 02:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

* I'm a big fan of option 3. Regardless of which we choose, it has to be consistent. Do you imagine how confused and frustrated people would get if the articles for the major planets were "Mercury", "Venus (Disambiguation), try to find Venus(Planet)", "Earth (This is where we live yay!)", "Mars (Solar System)", "Jupitar (Gas Giant)", "Uranus (7th planet)" and "Neptune (heavenly body)". Why would you do this? Pick a naming convention and stick with it for articles of that class. Consistency is very important. That's why Wikipedia has factboxes for historical articles, pictures for the polygons, categories of articles, etc. Organisation, intuitiveness, professionalism and ease of use are THE MOST IMPORTANT factors in any work of reference besides information itself. My gut tells me that if I found an article at Eris (drawf planet) I would find another dwarf planet article at Ceres (drawf planet), just like you figure if you saw a big red cross on one hospital, you figure the next hospital you come to will also have a big red cross, and not, say, a blue circle. I vote #3, but mostly I vote for consistency. [[User:Arrenlex|Arrenlex]] 03:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

:* EDIT: Actually, after thinking about it, I'd like to throw my support behind #2 instead (134340 Pluto, 136199 Eris, 1 Ceres). It follows official naming conventions and seens to be the way dwarf planets should be labelled. [[User:Arrenlex|Arrenlex]] 04:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

*'''4''' should definitely happen. People searching for Ceres or Eris are far far more likely to be looking for the dwarf planets than the goddesses. The two goddesses are far less famous than the God Pluto (where people will be looking for the god 50% of the time). If not I vote for consistency. [[User:The Enlightened|The Enlightened]] 03:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

:* I can't see it's being a "dwarf planet" will do much for [[1 Ceres]]. It speaks of its status that the goddess "owns" the name in this encyclopedia, amd I honestly don't see that situation changing. (At the least, I wnat to see evidence that it has changed as opposed to anticipating the change.) IMO, the best you can hope for with Ceres is for the name to redirect to the disambiguation page. --[[User:ems57fcva|EMS]] | [[User_talk:ems57fcva|Talk]] 04:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

:*I'd guess far fewer than 50% of the searches for "Pluto" are for the god. Eris, however, is pretty big, being a part of [[Discordianism]]. The fact that [[Eris (mythology)|Eris]] is a longer page than [[Pluto (mythology)|Pluto]] shows it. _└&nbsp;^{'''[[User:Osgoodelawyer|<font color="blue">OzLawyer</font>]]'''}&nbsp;/&nbsp;_{''<font color="black">[[User Talk:Osgoodelawyer|talk]]</font>''}&nbsp;^┐ 04:07, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

* They really need to retain their MPC numbers, they are the official designation, '''the only reason this is any issue at all''' is because, Pluto/Eris only recently received them, and some editors have reservations about the 134340 Pluto reclassification. All the other dwarf planet candidates have MPC numbers, and all the actual dwarf planets do (1 Ceres of course always having one), they are still asteroids and KBO/SDO's as they were before, ''as well'' as being dwarf planets, the MPC numbers should be retained for clarity and corectness. -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 04:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

:* Except, of course, that there is the very real possibility that there will be a new catalogue for the dwarf planets. (The MPEC circular re: the numbers for Pluto et al stated that the assignment of mp numbers did not preclude inclusion in a different numbering system.) --'''[[User:Ckatz|Ckatz]]'''''<small>^{[[User_talk:Ckatz|<font color="green">chat</font>]]}_{[[Special:Contributions/Ckatz|<font color="red">spy</font>]]}</small>'' 05:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

::* Of course, and if/when that happens we can change the MPC numbers to the new numbering system, but we dont preempt decisions on wikipedia. -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 05:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

:*I'd go with number 4. Dwarf planets will be few enough that there's no need for the numbers to be in the article title. [[User:Nik42|Nik42]] 06:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

::*Wikipedia is not a crystal ball - and besides who knows how many more ice dwarves remain undiscovered, according to the predictions there are potentially thousands, while not all of these will be dwarf planets, 10's/100's may be.. -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 06:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

* Number 4 if available (such as for Pluto and I suspect for Quaoar and Sedna once they're declared dwarf planets). If Number 4 is not available, use Number 2 to disambiguate. --[[User:Aranae|Aranae]] 06:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

* Option 4 is my choice. I think it should happen because "dwarf planets" are supposed to be a higher class than the "small solar-system bodies" that have these numbers. By including the dwarf numbers, it degrades the objects and shows no distinction between a teeny-tiny asteroid and an object like Pluto!

::Theres no heirachy as you propose, just classifications, you cannot promote or demote an object despite what the media would like you to beleive. These are big round rocks, they dont have feelings, they wont feel degraded. Despite the fact a number is hardly the basis of degradation anyway, the distinction between the asteroid and the dwarf planets, is that some are dwarf planets which is stated in the articles and the solar system footer, and probably wherever else they are mentioned! If that isnt good enough for you option 5 can do all that work for us. -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 06:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

::: But, the IAU clearly said there is a distinction between SSSB and dwarf-planets. Including the number could confuse readers and then the IAU's "scientific" protocol that Wiki is supposed to elaborate to the public, is flawed. There's no harm in just calling the articles Pluto, Ceres, or Eris. These ARE their names, the numbers are just their to more easily catologue new info about the objects that come in. 134340 is no more correct than simply Pluto. I think by just saying their names as the titles creates a strong distinction between SSSBs and the dwarf planets, which are suppossed to be a higher class.

*I like option 3. When someone creates an interwiki link to a dwarf planet article, linking to 'Eris (dwarf planet)' will be much simpler than linking to '1451512363567373263 Eris' or whatever the number is. Third, putting numbers in the article title makes it seem cluttered. As long as the official name is made clear in the first sentence of the article, the article names without numbers will clean it up. Finally, the current standard is to use the numbering system, but it feels like dwarf planets are supposed to be elevated beyond asteroids and KBOs and such. [[User:E946|E946]] 07:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

:: I agree with your last sentence, Pluto, Ceres & Eris are of a higher class than the SSSB's, of which most are only recognized by the number. The 3 dwarf-planets are recognized by name and having the number in the title (the numbers should be in the first sentence of the article, though) will create no distinction between Pluto and some asteroid with a number like 442093.

*I would have to call for position 1, as we have no idea as to what new numerical system will be put in place for the dwarf planets that may require a new article name. Right now, no one's going to look up "[[Pluto (dwarf planet)]]" when they want to know about [[Pluto]], and when people look for "[[Eris]]" they get the disambiguation page that will lead them to [[Eris (dwarf planet)]] (which should probably be moved back to the numerical designation soon) and [[1 Ceres]] has always been as such. There isn't much of anything in the foreseeable future that will make these suggested moves required. [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 07:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

:*The idea is that Pluto will be a disambiguation page. [[User:E946|E946]] 16:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

*Go with option 2.

*#The number serves as disambiguation, and I quote from the guidelines at [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation]]: ''"When there is another word (such as Cheque instead of Check) or more complete name that is equally clear (such as Titan rocket), that should be used."'' The parenthetical disambiguation (option 3) is in fact the second option on that list.

*#Dwarf planets are minor planets, as evidenced by them being given numbers by the MPC, which is an official body operating as part of the IAU. This whole idea that dwarf planets are NOT minor planets is incorrect - both dwarf planets and SSSB fall into the "minor planets" umbrella. We are not saying dwarf planets are SSSB!

*#The arguments about ease of accessibility and pipe tricks and such like are irrelevant when you consider redirects. There seems to be some kind of view that if we go for calling the article "136199 Eris" or "1 Ceres", people searching for "Eris (dwarf planet)" will get an unfriendly blank page! These parenthetical disambiguations can surely still exist as redirects!

*#136199 Eris, 134040 Pluto and 1 Ceres are official designations. Eris (dwarf planet), Pluto (dwarf planet) and Ceres (dwarf planet) are Wikipedianisms. I don't get why we should prefer the Wikipedianism over the official designation!

:[[User:Chaos syndrome|Chaos syndrome]] 18:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

== Comparative research ==

I decided to check on how the other Wikipedias that have the same problem are handling the situation. Here's a summary:

{|

|French: || (1) Cérès || (134340) Pluton || (136199) Éris|| numbers throughout

|-

|Italian: || Cerere (astronomia) || Plutone (astronomia) || Eris (astronomia) || parenthetical (astronomy)

|-

|Spanish: || (1) Ceres || Plutón (astronomía) || (136199) Eris || mixed

|-

|German: || Ceres (Zwergplanet) || Pluto (Zwergplanet) || Eris (Zwergplanet) || parenthetical (dwarf planet)

|-

|Swedish: || 1 Ceres || Pluto (dvärgplanet) || 136199 Eris || mixed

|-

|Portuguese: || Ceres (planeta anão) || Plutão || Éris (planeta anão) || mixed

|-

|Dutch: || Ceres (dwergplaneet) || Pluto (dwergplaneet) || Eris (dwergplaneet) || parenthetical (dwarf planet)

|-

|Polish: || 1 Ceres || 134340 Pluton || 136199 Eris || numbers throughout

|-

|Russian: || Tserera (karlikovaya planeta) || Pluton (karlikovaya planeta) || Erida (karlikovaya planeta) || parenthetical (dwarf planet)

|}

Sum total is:

*Ceres: Numbers 4, (dwarf planet) 4, (astronomy) 1

*Pluto: Numbers 2, (dwarf planet) 4, (astronomy) 2, alone 1

*Eris: Numbers 4, (dwarf planet) 4, (astronomy) 1

The consistent ones are:

*French and Polish - numbers only

*Italian - (astronomy)

*German, Dutch, and Russian - (dwarf planet)

*Spanish, Swedish, and Portuguese are inconsistent, but none in exactly the same way as the English wikipedia.

This all is just for comparative purposes.

[[User:RandomCritic|RandomCritic]] 07:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Again for comparative purposes:

Just browsing through all the FLA's for each:

*Ceres is fairly evenly split between numbers and dwarf planet, though numbers is ahead barely

*Eris is currently about a 3 way split between numbers, dwarf planet, and still unchanged from 2003UB313

*Pluto is mainly dwarf planets, with a few numbers, and a few unchanged from Pluto

It seems we are not the only wiki-group stuck in limbo.

[[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 07:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

== Option 4 conflicts ==

The main problem I see with option 4 is the fact that the Eris and Ceres articles already exist. While Pluto will have no problem here, it will be very hard to convince any major editors of othse two articles to move to a different article.

It will also double the amount of changes that we need to make to links to reflect the change. Also, what happens if or when (presumably when) new dwarf planets are discovered? It will start the process all over again. I believe we can cross option 4 off the list simply due to how many conflicts it may raise now and in the future. [[User:E946|E946]] 07:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, ill cross it off the list, it can always be readded pending complaints -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 07:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

*Don't cross it off the list, the Ceres & Eris issues can be dealt with. Just because you forsee a problem doesn't automatically mean you can cross it off.

The be [[WP:BOLD|bold]] and re add it! -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 07:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

*Alrighty then, but I don't want people to continuously remove it. I'm sure a compromise on this subject can be reached. I feel that you can include the number in the article but keep the titles the same. The [[Pluto]] article does this wonderfully by saying the number is there in the first sentence, but keeps the name that is historically correct and is the one everybody loves and is familiar with. I think that instead of Pluto going the way of the Eris & Ceres articles, the latters should go the way of Pluto, which has been truly a prototype as an object and as a way of classifying objects.

I listed Option 4 because it is in principle an option. It may not be a good option, but it is one. My own sense of the issue is that we proabably want the "dwarf planet" names to go to disambiguation pages as is the case for [[Eris]], although I will admit that this presupposes that it is ambiugous as to whether people will in general be looking up the name seeking the deity or the astronomical object. [[Pluto]] will remain an exception as it only recently has been downgraded from its status as a planet, and it probably makes no sense to treat it that same as the other "dwarf planets" in that respect, although I would like its name to conform to some standard for this category of object. --[[User:ems57fcva|EMS]] | [[User_talk:ems57fcva|Talk]] 16:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

== An alliance of the "Dwarves" and the "Integerians"? ==

Perhaps 5 is the best option, the two main sides get what they want... granted it is not the best option, but it may be the one we can come to a consensus on... -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 07:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

* I disagree, because I'm not in favor of having the number in the article (particularly Pluto's)

Why particularly Pluto? we are working for a consistent naming scheme -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 08:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

* Because I like Pluto. Plain and simple..it's always been my favorite planet and I think the leader or main member of the "dwarf-planets" is Pluto, so the other articles should follow with the same nomenclature as the Pluto article.

== Problem Half-Solved ==

We have now moved back to a semi-coherent naming scheme, it is ''possible'' to leave ''just'' Pluto as the singular exception. But i really think we should move it in line with the others... Thoughts? -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 08:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

* I say we should bring the others in line with Pluto. Why is Ceres right, but Pluto "wrong"? The way the Pluto article is currently set up is PERFECT. Gives the distinction that it is not a SSSB and still very clearly says in the first sentence that it has that number.

* [[1 Ceres]] has been "1 Ceres" for over 150 years. [[Pluto]] has been "Pluto" for the past 76 years, until someone found the MPC page and told us that it has a number like Ceres. [[136199 Eris]] (or [[Eris (dwarf planet)]] if the page isn't protected from moving) has only been "136199 Eris" for a week or so, and before that was {{mp|2003 UB|313}} for three years. Give the astronomy people time to figure out this stuff for us, please? [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 08:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

** Minor note, I currently only object the move at [[Talk:136199 Eris]] because I think that we should wait for any sort of IAU stuff until we start renaming everything. Pluto should be an exception, and I guess maybe Ceres and Eris should have (dwarf planet) eventually, but not until other IAU literature with the nomenclature comes out. [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 08:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

*I think Pluto as the singular exception is valid because right now the primary use of the term "Pluto" to the general public is the space rock. Ceres competes with an equally well known Olympian, but lacks Pluto's century of planethood fame. Eris is still too new and will compete with the Eris of the Discordians. I actually suspect that Ceres and Eris will be the exceptions in needing to be disambiguated since future dwarf planets will largely be named after much more obscure deities (Sedna, Quaoar, and Orcus as examples). If Chaos makes the cut it will need to be disambiguated, but I think these will be the exception among dwarf planets instead of the rule. It's probably not necessary to include the number of these well known bodies in the article title (unless a disambiguation is needed) as they won't be predominantly referred to as such. If we settle on "Name (dwarf planet)" <small>(I hope we don't)</small> then the "(dwarf planet)" part is definitely not needed in cases such as Pluto where "Name" would be redirecting there anyway. --[[User:Aranae|Aranae]] 08:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

**Well, with the disambiguating of Pluto to (dwarf planet), if it occurs (which is doubtful) will make [[Pluto]] redirect to [[Pluto (disambiguation)]] or vice versa. Right '''now''' Pluto is the singular exception to any sort of disambiguation. Eris and Ceres can go either way; as I said 1 Ceres has had a number for the past 150 years, and Eris has only been 136199 Eris for the past week. [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 09:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

-- So is that a general consensus as numbers for the dwarf planets. (Pluto currently being the exception - and may or may not be moved in the future at the Pluto editors discretion [basically grandfathering its name]) -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]]

For future dwarf planets i think we should really stick to the MPC scheme, besides if we do that they are already at the right addresses. -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 10:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

This was posted by [[User:Chaos syndrome|Chaos syndrome]] on the Dwarf Planet talk page:

<blockquote>'''In favour of numbers''' - first off, the number serves to disambiguate the name, and according to the guidelines at Wikipedia:Disambiguation: ''"When there is another word (such as Cheque instead of Check) or more complete name that is equally clear (such as Titan rocket), that should be used."'' '''The parentheses option (i.e. putting "Ceres (dwarf planet)" is only second in the list'''. In addition, both dwarf planets and SSSB fall under the category of "minor planets", as evidenced by the IAU/MPC's handling of the number system. Furthermore, the existence of redirects and disambiguation pages means that you won't have to remember the numbers anyway. Chaos syndrome 11:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)</blockquote>

-- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]]

==Option 6 and beyond==

The author of the above five options makes it seem like there are no other choices, which is odd, as my primary choice of names would be:

*[[Pluto]]

*[[Ceres (dwarf planet)]]

*[[Eris (dwarf planet)]]

All articles should of course acknowledge the MPC catalogue numbers, but as far as I'm aware the dwarfs planets are ''named'' "Ceres", "Eris" and "Pluto". The names do not contain the MPC number, but rather MPC numbers are simply catalogue numbers.

Pluto can simply stay where it is, because as far as the general public is concerned Pluto is/was primarily a planet, not a cartoon dog, etc. Eris and Ceres as less well known, but I believe would benefit from having [[layman]]-friendly titles. MPC numbers mean nothing to anyone outside of science - perhaps anyone outside of physics. [[User:Alii h|aLii]] 11:07, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

:According to that we should rename all the arguably common asteroids to "<name> (asteroid)" -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]]

::Where an asteroid is famous enough to get international media coverage, then perhaps. Find me ''one'' story from a major international news organisation (e.g. the BBC, CNN, Reuters) that refers to Eris always including the MPC number. I bet you can't. If you can find several then perhaps I'll start to believe that these numbers are actually widely used by the general public. Until that time I see them as numbers used by a few astronomers (but only in a catalogue sense) and no-one else. [[User:Alii h|aLii]] 11:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Who decides what is a famous asteroid? what about unnamed faous asteroids - do we call them "2007 XY515 (Asteroid)"? Seriously... it ruins any consistency between articles of similar objects... the most common name isnt always correct. Also, as dwarf planets these objects are still asteroids/KBO's/SDO's and should be named in accordance with others. Pluto should really be no different from any decision, just people dont agree with the authoratative body on how things are. Remember Wikipedia is not a soapbox, if the experts say there are 8 planets there are... If the experts name objects with MPC numbers then they are named that way. -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]]

Also one extra thing to clarify... It is just the ''article'' that should be named with the MPC number, after the first sentence the object should obviously be refered to by its name without it. -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 11:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

: I have explicity added an "option 6". I call on all to remember that this is Wikipedia and that the list at the top (which I created initially BTW) can be editted as needed. The mixed approach certainly is an option: Pluto does have a special status at this time as a recently downgraded object. Letting it be an exception for now is an option, and let time relax people's feelings about it. I would think that after a while (although it may be a long "while") its not conforming to the standard for dwarf planets will look silly. --[[User:ems57fcva|EMS]] | [[User_talk:ems57fcva|Talk]] 16:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

::This Option 6 idea doesn't mark out Pluto for any particularly special treatment. If Eris and Ceres were more well known than their mythical namesakes then they too should be moved to the main article name. As it happens they are not, and so Wikipedia convention moves them to have a descriptive noun in brackets. [[User:Alii h|aLii]] 16:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

::: I think we should just leave it as [[Pluto]], Eris (dwarf planet), and Ceres {dwarf planet). Pluto is more well known than the other two, and by putting the Ceres/Eris articles like that would make it more consistent with the Pluto article, and make sure they don't lead to the gods, etc.

==Proposal==

I propose to make a self-enforced official policy on the naming of Dwarf Planets, using:

'''<MPC Number> <Name>'''

As per the following official Wikipedia policies:

'''Wikipedia:Naming Conflict''' - Article Names<br />

''If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name '''except''' for conflicting scientific names'' -> Astronomy is obviously a scientific discipline and 134340 Pluto is a scientific name (opposed to Pluto [its common/colloquial form])

'''Wikipedia:Disambiguation''' - Specific topic<br />

''When there is another word (such as Cheque instead of Check) or more complete name that is equally clear (such as Titan rocket), that should be used.'' -> This suggest the use of numbers rather than the next option (a parenthetical)

'''Wikipedia:Soapbox''' - Advocacy<br />

''Wikipedia was not made for opinion, it was made for fact.'' -> No keeping Pluto just because you have an attachment to it

'''Wikipedia:Crystal Ball''' - Expected future events<br />

''Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place.'' -> In other words, no holding off because there may be a new numbering system used in future.

''add any other possible policies endorsing this proposed policy here''

'''Remember people... redirects exist... Pluto will be able redirect to 134340 Pluto'''

'''There is precedent for this move... currently ''all minor planets except Pluto'' have MPC Numbers in their names''' (In other words, every asteroid, and dwarf planet except Pluto)

Thoughts/Support/Opposition? - Please leave good reasons! -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 12:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

===Discussion===

*'''Strongly Support''' - Obviously ;) - Reasons listed on about 5 different pages :| - also wikipedia policies as above seem to back up this view -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]]

*'''Strongly Support''' - It's consistent, It's official, it's distinict, it makes sense, it follows the wikipedia policies. [[User:Arrenlex|Arrenlex]]

*'''Support''' - Although option 5 is a second choice. That is now how those objects are named, and [[Pluto]] can always redirect to the proper name. The Wikipedia policy concerns noted above do make a solid case for this. --[[User:ems57fcva|EMS]] | [[User_talk:ems57fcva|Talk]] 16:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

* '''Strongly Oppose'''. There is no naming conflict. The author of this proposal even admits as such:

*::"<MPC Number> '''<Name>'''"

*:[[Iron]] is another good example of a scientific article that could be given a more scientific name, and also has [[Iron (disambiguation)|disambiguation issues]]. It is not called [[Fe Iron]] or [[Iron (element)]] or [[Iron (Fe)]]. It was the first example article that I looked up, and so I'm sure that one could find many other examples if so inclined. Wikipedia precedent would appear to be on the side of using the common-name over the [[systematic name|systematic-name]] in such circumstances (See [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)]]). Adding in unnecessary scientific jargon helps no-one. It would seem logical therefore to stick with the rule of thumb "''Use the most common name"''.

*:Point by point therefore:

*:*'''Wikipedia:Naming Conflict'''. What conflict?

*:*'''Wikipedia:Disambiguation'''. Everyone knows that the most widely used term can inhabit the main article. There is no problem here either.

*:*'''Wikipedia:Soapbox'''. Indeed it is strange that so many people seem to be going against reason and precedent in trying to add catalogue numbers to article names.

*:*'''Wikipedia:Crystal Ball'''. Seems pretty non-applicable to me.

*:[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)]] with the precedent of element-naming using the common-name out-weighs these illogical calls for adding confusing codes into article titles to me. Again I'll mention the fact that the media, and therefore the general public is not aware of these codes for the most part, and so it baffles me that people want to include them.

*:For example, lets take the case of Ceres:

*:*[http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22ceres%22+site%3Abbc.co.uk&btnG=Search&meta= google search for: "ceres" asteroid site:bbc.co.uk] '''239''' hits.

*:*[http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%221+ceres%22+asteroid+site%3Abbc.co.uk&btnG=Search&meta= google search for: "1 ceres" asteroid site:bbc.co.uk] '''2''' hits.

*:*CNN returns '''36/0'''

*:*yahoo.com returns '''423/85'''

*:*reuters returns 0/0 :p

*:*anyway, you get the picture...

*:[[User:Alii h|aLii]] 16:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

*:: I don't see that you have made a viable point at all. [[Planet]]s and [[chemical element]]s have been given naming priority due to the fact the people looking up those names will most often be looking for the planet or the chemical element. However, the "dwarf planets" '''are not''' true planets, and it makes no sense to treat them as such. [[Ceres]] goes straight to the goddess, and [[Eris]] is disambiguated. Future "dwarf planets" are going to largely be shrugged off by the general public, amd so will exist at best at the same level as the deities (or whatever) that they are named for. That requires disambiguation of some sort.

*:: I also will point out that '''the "dwarf plnets" are also [[minor planets]]''', and '''all''' minor planets (except Pluto and Eris) are today listed with their MPC numbers! Even with Pluto I would list it with its MPC number but have the name alone redirect to the former planet's page. --[[User:ems57fcva|EMS]] | [[User_talk:ems57fcva|Talk]] 18:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

*:::Are you seriously trying to tell me that most people will be looking up '''134xxx Pluto''' (whatever the x's are)? The same common-name convention should of course apply to ''everything'', bar a good reason for making an exception. Given the history, and media coverage, there certainly isn't a good reason for changing, for example, Pluto. Infact there seems to be better (Wikipedia) reasons for changing the other named minor planets to the common-name convention. [[User:Alii h|aLii]] 19:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

*::::Does it really matter what they look up? That's what redirects are for! Whatever they look up, they'll have something linking to here, either automatically (a redirect) or requiring manual navigation (a disambiguation page). The beauty of redirects is that we can use accurate titles while still allowing people to find the article when they use a common title. E.g. most people know the organisation as [[MI6]], but the official title is the [[Secret Intelligence Service]]. [[User:Chaos syndrome|Chaos syndrome]] 19:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

*::::Alii your point is null - straight from WP:Naming conflict:

::::* The most common use of a name takes precedence;

::::* '''If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name ''except'' for conflicting scientific names''';

::::* If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves. -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]]

:::::Also Alii '''there is precedent''' for using the MPC numbers in the names of minor planets... out of the ''many'' minor planets listed on wikipedia '''ALL''' but Pluto have MPC numbers in their names. -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]]

:::'''Strongly oppose'''. [[Pluto]] is just fine where it is, Ceres & Eris can have (dwarf planet) on the end since they are less known than Pluto. - [[User:67.126.201.182|Added by 67.126.201.182]]

'''Strongly support''' - see my reply to aLii above. [[User:Chaos syndrome|Chaos syndrome]] 20:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

*'''Strong oppose''' I know have preference to option number 6; Pluto is just more popular as a planet (and dog) than a deity, whereas Ceres and Eris have much more knowledge concerning their namesake deities than the chunks of rock and ice that they are. I say we should stick with [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)]] which would leave [[Pluto]] (which has been a planet for 76 years) and [[1 Ceres]] (which was a planet for 50 years and then an asteroid) where they are, and maybe [[136199 Eris]] can be disambiguated (but I still wish [[Eris]] would have been left as it was). [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 21:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

**'''Addendum''' Right now, I'm going by what is in all scientific literature. The most common name for 134340 Pluto is '''Pluto'''; the most common name for 1 Ceres is '''1 Ceres'''; and there is no current common name for 136199 Eris other than Xena, {{mp|2003 UB|313}}, Lila, etc. Right now, I think the only problem we have is with the name of [[136199 Eris]]/[[Eris (dwarf planet)]]. [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 21:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

*'''Strongly oppose'''. Deal with each page on a page-by-page basis. Or go with something like Pluto (Astonomy) ... Pluto (Dwarf Planet), or Pluto (Planet) for each page ... the number (or at least numbers with 6 digits) are too confusing, and will never be common usage. [[User:Nfitz|Nfitz]] 22:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

**Actually, the only one with common usage with the number are the earliest asteroids that [[1 Ceres]] is a part of. The others will never be common. [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 00:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

***Wikipedia guidelines seem to state that the common name rule is not applicable for scientific names -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]]

****Can you provide a link to that? I can't see anything on [[WP:NAME]] or elsewhere that points that way (doesn't mean it isn't there, just that I can't find it!) Not completely iirelevent is [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna)]] which seems to point to the use of common names over scientific names [[User:Nfitz|Nfitz]] 01:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

*****[[Wikipedia:Naming conflict]] as i listed in the original proposal - for a direct link to the section [[Wikipedia:Naming_conflict#Article_names_2| click here]] -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 01:29, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

******Not to butt in, but that doesn't appear to show such information (and I believe that the MPC's numerical designation of Pluto was a bit bad, seeing as they are just saying "Oh, Ceres was part of our list, and now it's part of that list, so let's give Pluto a number"). [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 01:51, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

*******Wikipedia is fact, not opinion, nor a soapbox - If the IAU says theres 8 planets there is, if they they say theres 526.625 planets then there is, if the IAU catalogues dwarf planets with MPC numbers, then we do to. They are the authoratative body when it comes to this... -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]] 02:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

*******Also... your dismissing Wikipedia guidelines because: it "doesn't appear to show such information"... is that any basis to dismiss it at all... -- [[User:Nbound|Nbound]]

********I'm not saying that my opinion matters, I'm just criticizing their choice to number Pluto. Also, I cannot see what you are talking about at [[Wikipedia:Naming conflict]]. Could you copy and paste the information relevant to this discussion? [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 02:13, 18 September 2006 (UTC)