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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page. ''
<!--Template:Afd top
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The result was '''no consensus'''. A full explanation is available on this AfD's talk page. [[User:Grandmasterka|<span style="color:red;">Grand</span>]][[User talk:Grandmasterka|<span style="color:blue;">master</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Grandmasterka|<span style="color:green;">ka</span>]] 10:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
===[[Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center]]===
Article forked from [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] due to length of that article, but since the split, this article has become a hopeless quagmire of conspiracy theory nonsense, and even simple demands that the article try to meet NPOV have been met with further POV pushing. This is simply not what wiipedia is about...[[WP:NOT|wikipedia is not]] for soapboxing, and is not an indiscriminate collection of misinformation. Delete.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 04:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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:::::<s>Why do you accuse me of lying?</s> Mine histories are '''true and real''': [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&oldid=77251723 Revision as of 23:58, 22 September 2006; Thomas Basboll] - at the end of ''The hypothesis'' (since then has been moved to ''Conflicts with official explanation'') there are sentences about Jones paid leave. You asked for it on the talk page at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AControlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&diff=77247372&oldid=77246501 21:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)]. 2.5 hours - I feel offended by your groundless accusation. [[User:SalvNaut|SalvNaut]] 14:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::I never said you were lying, so don't put words in my mouth. I stated, and looking at your entire editing history this is obvious, that you are here solely to advance conspiracy theories. So far, you have not demonstrated that your purpose on Wikipedia is geared in any other direction. Those links do not demonstrate that Alex Jones has been adequately debunked as would be completely mandatory for this article to ever be NPOV.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 14:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Our job is not to debunk anything. Our job is to make articles on any and all notable things reported by secondary sources for a free encyclopedia. Those here for anything else need to leave. · [[User_talk:XP|<
:::::::No, MONGO, no - stop putting your words into my head. I am here to learn how to edit Wikipedia and gain knwoledge about 9/11. I won't discuss anymore with you, because it's got ad hominem and has nothing to do with the case. I can't find any source that would show that <u>Steven</u> Jones has been debunked (he was dismissed-its a big difference in science).[[User:SalvNaut|SalvNaut]] 14:43, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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* '''Strong Keep <s>Keep</s>''' Not sure what the other people are even reading unless they have a personal bias stake in this. WP:POINT afd nomination that appears <s>trolling</s> or disruption attempt? This is a fork that includes 95 sources, from nytimes.com to house.gov to all sorts of international coverage. The theory as a theory is notable, and 40% of Americans polled per CNN believe in theories. There is a criticism section and volumous sourced data. Why is this even nominated? Close afd as farcical--why is this even open...?
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&oldid=77347107 This version] of the article has [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&oldid=77347107#References 108 references]. Of them, just at a ''glance'', I count at least 70+ that meet all Policy requirements for RV and V. They range from a ''variety'' of US government documents that touch on the theory, to news sources ranging from live reports by Dan Rather to the NY Times to the BBC. Seems notable enough to be an automatic keep, and rereading AfD policies we do not delete for POV reasons, nor neutrality reasons. We rewrite the article together, which is the only reason, and the only reason we're here: write free encyclopedia about notable things that are reported on by secondary sources. Closing admin: this article therefore per RS meets all qualifications that I can see. · [[User_talk:XP|<
:Trust me that I am not a troll, so I'll assume your commentary must be. The farce is when people misuse Wikipedia to POV push nonsense
such as this.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::Are you saying the theory isn't notable based on the mountains of media coverage? Or that it's too big for the parent page, and per policy shouldn't be forked off? Those two policies say that this article has legs and stays. Policy is on it's side, at this time, from what I've read. If you can cite in policy with examples why it shouldn't be, I will reconsider my opinion. · [[User_talk:XP|<
:::Efforts to have much of this information in the Collapse of the World Trade Center article failed, so it was then built up on the [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] article. This was split, and retitled and technically survived a different Afd, but this article has now developed into a repository of misinformation deliberately designed to give credence to something that has no basis in fact...it is an article that will perpetually masquerade as a scientific treatise. [[WP:NOT]] clearly states that wikipedia is not a soapbox, which this article is...a soapbox to promote conspiracy theory nonsense. Furthermore, I see no chance the article can be a neutral one and will ultimately be a battleground, further violation of policy. I rarely nominate articles for deletion, so when I do, I am most serious about my reasoning.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::::I guess it will be the community that decides if it stays or goes 5 days from now, with no one getting their points attacked I should hope. · [[User_talk:XP|<
:::::Then best you don't refer to my nom as trolling?--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 07:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::True, fair point and struck. However, please justify and explain the comment you added then [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Controlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&diff=prev&oldid=77314820 removed] however of:
::::::::::''"The article will be deleted...I just thought I would bring it here for discussion...it's your job to convince me to not delete it. Since the article is a soapbox platform, that is a clear violation of [[WP:NOT]]."''
::::::Also per policy do not refactor others' additions to AfD or (I see your an admin now) be the one to close this--so, regretfully, it's not "your" decision for anything directly. Thanks! · [[User_talk:XP|<
*'''Keep the first paragraph, demolish the rest''' - That's all that's needed. Of course, the conspiracy theorists would never allow such an edit to stand. Sigh. - [[User:Richfife|Richfife]] 06:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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*'''Keep''', this hypothesis exists and has been widely publicized. Article is no less encyclopedic than [[Nazi UFOs]]. [[User:Gazpacho|Gazpacho]] 08:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:*That article does not advance a position; it in fact makes it clear that it is a fictional theme. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 14:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Exactly, and fictional or a dumb CT, it's still notable however, and thus an automatic AfD pass. · [[User_talk:XP|<
:::Mmx, I don't think you read very far into the article. [[User:Gazpacho|Gazpacho]] 19:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
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*'''Keep''' the hypothesis is nonsense; however, it is notable. the article is a good place to document the nonsense. if the article is poor now, the solution is to fix it. if that is too difficult, npov tag it. [[User_talk:Derex|Derex]] 09:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*:I'm really troubled by the idea of "documenting the nonsense". If the article is nonsense, as you suggest, wouldn't it be appropriate to just [[WP:CSD]]:G1 it and move on? [[User:Alphachimp|<
*'''Strong Keep''' we want to honestly present in this article the status of knowledge about the hypothesis, which already caused quite a mess in the world. It's very notable among Internet users, it's made its way to the media, it's been considered among engineers (NIST, Bazhant - then dismissed) and there are academic papers promoting it (Jones,Cherpanov, Greening, who considers thermite reactions). There are voices form experts abroad (Swiss professor of structural engineering; Dutch, Danish demolition experts) agreeing with it. We want to present most notable points of this hypothesis (and there is a lot of them, they are mentioned in academic papers, summaries of researches, on thousands of blogs), present a critique of them (it's already done in many cases). There are secondary sources presenting this hypothesis, there is a critique of it, so the article can be very encyclopedic.
:Proponents of deletion bring following issues on: WP:NOT a soapbox, WP:OR. My opinion:
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*'''Delete'''. Blatant soapboxing, and as such unlikely to ever meet [[WP:NPOV]]. Many of these "secondary sources" aren't exactly reliable ones, either. | [[User:MrDarcy|Mr. Darcy]] <small>[[User talk:MrDarcy|talk]]</small> 15:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. While clean up is certainly merited (a number of the sources I've managed to go through so far are, at the very best, barely capable of satisfying [[WP:RS]]), no one is arguing that this theory's existence is unverifiable, and it's certainly notable. I assume that the majority of those who have responded here have heard about the theory at some point. In my eyes, if the theory has gained enough credence that even my own government is taking the time to [http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=pubs-english&y=2006&m=August&x=20060828133846esnamfuaK0.2676355 respond to it], it's also got enough to warrant a WP article. The article itself is not inherently POV, and the "blatant soapboxing" everyone is referring to can be cleaned up by clearing the worst cruft and citing the rebuttals where possible. POV is always going to be an issue with articles on controversial topics, but AfD isn't the place to resolve it. [[User:Philodespotos|Philodespotos]] 16:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete'''. This collection of minority viewpoints will never achieve a [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]], will never have [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], and will never stop being a soapbox (which [[WP:NOT|Wikipedia is Not]]). It's also entirely unencyclopedic. Delete it now. [[User:Alphachimp|<
*'''Strong keep''' perhaps speedily as a repeat AfD so close to the previous one. Like it or not, this is a noted crank theory. --[[User:Badlydrawnjeff|badlydrawnjeff]] <small>[[User_talk:Badlydrawnjeff|talk]]</small> 17:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete''' per Alphachimp. -- [[User talk:I@n|I@n]] 18:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep'''. I am trying very hard to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]], and am not really succeeding. [[WP:NOT]] a soapbox, and these continual AfD nominations appear to be part of a soapbox. The article passes all the critera for inclusion. We should not care that the conspiracy theories are good theories or bad theories. We should simply document them as being a phenomenon that we record in an encyclopaedic manner. Our role is not to judge the theories in any way <u>except</u> to document that which is <u>notable</u>. The theories are patently notable. If the article requires editing that is a different matter from nominating it for deletion. Time to get back on message, guys. It's an encyclopaedia, not a newspaper. 18:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*:'''Comment'''. The theory is complete BS, but that's not the point. The point is that this article will never achieve a Neutral Point of View, has no reliable sources, and serves as a soapbox. [[User:Alphachimp|<
*::No. that is not the point. Diligent editing can remove non neutral point of view items. We are not here to look into a crystalk ball, we are here to edit. We can flag disputed articles to suggest that they may not be neutral, we can do a great deal. The sources that are quoted to illustrate the theories are, usually, acceptable sources in that they pass the relevant tests. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] 18:39, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*:::I'm a bit perplexed about how this article can ever be made [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]]. As for the sources listed, the only reasonably reliable one I recall is Popular Mechanics (correct me if I'm wrong). The majority are conspiracy sites. I suspect their content is just as POV as this article. [[User:Alphachimp|<
*:: Per AfD policy none of your cited reasons are valid Deletion reasons. Why would this article because of subject matter some disagree with be exempt from established policy? · [[User_talk:XP|<
*::: It's not quite so much disagreement as it is the absolute inability for this article ever to become anything beyond POV and [[WP:HOAX|hoaxcruft]]. [[User:Alphachimp|<
*::::Unfortunately, I count 60+ unrefutably reliable sources that no one can contest. The theory exists. It is reported on. It is notable. It is not a hoax that it exists, and either way none of this is a valid reason per AfD policy/procedure to delete. I think it's bullshit, but my view does not matter. Popular will cannot trump policy for what is meritous, and 60+ RS is certainly meritous. I want to AGF but the fact that this was nominated 24 hours after the last AfD on the same content is just the height of hubris, and as Jeff mentioned should be tossed on procedural grounds. This is already clearly going to be a no concensus or keep--this needs cleanup, and does not qualify for deletion, as AfD is not a vote (thankfully). Anyway, the sudden and premature AfD will at least insulate this from future premature AfDs as any new early ones will be certainly considered a disruptive WP:POINT vio of some sort. · [[User_talk:XP|<
*:::::I really think that it's in poor form to come out with allegations of bad faith and [[WP:POINT]] here. Let's stick to the topic at hand and save the ad hominem comments for other venues. As to your sources: of course, there is some wheat amongst the chaff. Yet those few good links only reference the unreliable hoaxcruft put forth by crackpot authors, personal websites, and other unacceptable sources. In essence: pull the unreliable sources and you get one POV--leave them in and you get another. Either way, it'll never be NPOV. [[User:Alphachimp|<
*::::::Wait, wait--so for some reason, because some of us consider it a dumb theory or disagree with it, valid RS reporting about the existance of a thing being espoused by possibly unreliable people means that we shouldn't have an article on it? That makes absolutely zero sense and I'd like for you to demonstrate where/how in policy such a thing is justifiable. Unless I'm misreading what you just wrote, your saying that is 1. I announce I am heriditary Emperor of the United States; 2. I post it all over the Internets, all over print media, and buy a TV spot Ross Perot style to espouse this; 3. I am a certifiable crackpot. 4. The NY Times and other international and domestic media cover my nonsense reliably; 5. I shouldn't have a wikipedia article because it's not provable that my statements may or may not be false? That makse zero sense and following that logic I can apply it to virtually any article on any fringe subject matter that I disagree with to get it removed from Wikipedia. That is wrong and not how the system works. · [[User_talk:XP|<
*:::::::Ironically, the same people whom this article cites as reliable sources would probably buy into your announcement. Fortunately, there are precious few. This isn't a matter of sanitizing the site for "my opinion" or "MONGO's opinion". It's a matter of removing an article that will always be a cruftish soapbox for an extreme minority of people. It's not our place to advertise theories and breed disdain for the US government, we're here to present the facts in the most neutral unbiased way possible. I do not ever see that happening with this article. [[User:Alphachimp|<
*::::::::Ironically, I think my point was missed. It's not our place to decide if something is meritous based on it's virtue, and it's neither our place to breed disdain for the US government nor is it our job to prevent it. This is not the American Wikipedia, it's the English Wikipedia. American POV, pro or con, has no more relevance than English, Scottish, Canadian, Jamaican, Austrailian, South African, or New Zealand POV. Neither has any more intrinsic value than any other. If something is offensive to some Americans, that's of no relevance, and if the subject matter leads to people clucking their tongues at the US government... well, that's not our concern. Also, have you not noticed the constant surveys that says 1/4 to 1/3 of all people believe in 9/11 related Conspiracy Theories? Hardly an extreme minority, there are scores of such reports all over. [http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,20385039-910,00.html From a major Aussie news source.]. Basically, what I'm saying is that whether or not it's appealing or insulting to some Americans--which seems to be the implication for many of these delete votes--that's their issue, not Wikipedia's. · [[User_talk:XP|<
*:Actually, there are plenty of reliable sources that report on the theory, and also thoroughly debunk it, covering both sides of the coin. [http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=5 Here's one]. --[[User:Badlydrawnjeff|badlydrawnjeff]] <small>[[User_talk:Badlydrawnjeff|talk]]</small> 18:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*::The Popular Mechanics article is one of the few somewhat decent, reliable sources that I've found in the entire reference list. The majority are conspiracy theory sites. [[User:Alphachimp|<
*'''Delete''' as a unencyclopedic POV fork. Since the forking the article has grown into a massive OR synthesis. The small amount of usable content should be remerged into the original article. --[[User:Wildnox|Wildnox]] 19:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per Weregerbil. [[User:Morton devonshire|Morton devonshire]] 19:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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::The existence of the CD hypothesis is acknowledged by the very engineers (Sunder, Bazant) who have qualified opinions about the subject and has been widely reported in the majority of the world's media, although as a minority view. There is no evidence to suggest that the hypothesis is being vetted by "one or a few webmasters". There are, for example, several books that present a version of it, all (as far as I can tell) by ''independent'' small publishers [I'm actually not sure how small all of them are]. We must keep in mind that this article is not about the collapse of the world trade center, but about a ''hypothesis about'' that collapse. That is why the subject of most of the sentences is either the hypothesis or its proponents, on the one hand, <s>and</s>or the mainstream explanation and its proponents, on the other. In a few cases it presents a fact about the collapses directly (most often with a qualifier like "there were reports of..."). It should of course only do so when the fact is not controversial (the date and time of the collapses, the amount of buildings that collapsed, etc.) My point here is that the article is only "forced to rely on unreliable sources" if it claims controlled demolition brought down the buildings. It clearly doesn't do this. It says that there are people who suspect it was brought down by controlled demolition, and it explicates the main tenets of this suspicion, which, as Time magazine has pointed out, is no longer simply part of a "fringe phenomenon" but of a "mainstream political reality."--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 06:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Yes, I fully understand most of what you state...but to present this "hypothesis" (if that is even an accurate word for such a matter), then ultimately we rely on references that are not [[WP:RS]] and oftentimes fail to meet [[WP:V]]. Synthesis of information to advance a position using sources that are tending tremendously towards disqualification for failure to be reliable is not an effort to build a better encyclopedia, but instead one to advocate a position. The undue weight clause of [[WP:NPOV]] for this hypothesis is enforced on the [[Collapse of the World Trade Center]] article, yet here, the minority viewpoint is now the point of advocacy. Wikipedia suffers from systemic bias when we allow this type of article to exist as a fork advocacy article of information that fails to meet policy for inclusion in the main article. Mainstream political reality is meaningless and has nothing to do with an encyclopedia which exists to advance the known evidence that can be referenced by reliable sources.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 06:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Would you be willing to cite which of the 109 sources do not meet RS in your definition here, or in a sub page of this AfD to avoid clutter? Many people have mentioned this that are supporting deletion, and I think it will help a lot to illuminate this point, as it seems to be the main point of contention. · [[User_talk:XP|<
:::I suggest we think of this article as being about "political reality" (i.e., culture) more than about "physical reality" (i.e., engineering). Again, that's why the subject of most of the sentences are people and ideas, not buildings and physical laws. It refers to something people are saying, and only indirectly to what they are talking about. (Unlike the main collapse article, which talks about the facts of the disaster.) None of this is obscure in the article, though the occasional sentence may not quite pass muster. In this sense, the idea that "mainstream policial reality is meaningless" and not of interest to an encyclopedia is of course simply wrong. And that's obviously the sense in which Time mean[t] it.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 06:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
::::As of this edit now, link numbers 7, 12, 15, 16 (not working for me), 17, 19,20, 24 (not working for me), 27, 28, 29, 32, 33, 35, 36 (both), 40, 41, 43, 46, 47, 48, 50, 54, 59, 67, 68, 70, 78, 82, 83, 84, 85, 92, 104....are all links to websites that are unreliable for supporting the information presented, or are here to advance this minority viewpoint in the form of advocacy.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 07:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::Whether or not ''this'' article is good, there is adquate evidence that there should be an article under this name. Also I believe the concept to be [[WP:NONSENSE]], there are a sufficiently notable minority that believe the concept deserves recognition. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] | [[User_talk:Arthur_Rubin|(talk)]] 07:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::MONGO, as Arthur just mentioned, and also you've also just demonstrated links from a wide variety of global, international sources, highlighting how prominenet in the current world this theory is, and you've also thus demonstrated perfectly it's notability--all those links are talking on a huge array of websites, and also foreign news sources especially, about the theory. Again, as mentioned, international coverage of this is significant, and as Wikipedia does not rely only '''''nor''''' does it apply any special weight or value to any American view or ''lack'' of adequate American view... notability and merit for inclusion again demonstrated. Thank you. · [[User_talk:XP|<
::::Reference 43 is a good example of one that is actually quite good but could be improved to be more informative. The sentence claims that some researchers make use of the oral histories of the events. It links to a researcher (Hoffman) who uses them (straightforward correct citation). Hoffman, in turn, has properly referenced his selection of quotes to the officially released oral histories, which have been published by the New York Times, a reliable source. That is, in this case we can say more than just "researches draw on oral histories", we can source those histories themselves to a reliable source.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 08:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::How completely wrong the keepers are when they state that the links I menetion demonstrate notability...it only demonstrates that there are a ot of unrelaibale sources. You guys are weren't able to get this information in the factual based article, so you create this farsical one, which is a POV fork. Shame on you.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 16:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. Also, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 10:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Might make a good section in a more general page on 9/11 theory but this is not encyclopedic. It's a agenda pushing advocacy page, most of the sources come from a tiny handful of people and the rest is original research. I've looked at this and it's a hand waving mess of a POV fork, which we don't do here. This piece of blue sky can be expressed in [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] in as few words as it took to say this. The keep !voters are not convincing. [[User:Rx StrangeLove|Rx StrangeLove]] 04:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - absolutely z-e-r-o doubts the subjectmatter is notable.
#It is a ''hypothosis'' like many theories finding third party proof is near impossible (and then it becomes "fact")
#can someone point to me the [[WP:V]] citable proof of [[God]] please (another hypothosis)?
#Article is well referenced, could be tidied but hell with the emotions flying here "good luck", and finally
#"Kooky" does not equal unencyclopedic ([[Pee-wee Herman]] anyone?) [[User talk:Glen S|'''Gl<span style="color:green;">e</span>n''']] 12:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. POV fork, [[WP:NOT]], etc. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup>[[User_talk:Jayjg|<small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk)</small>]]</sup> 19:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
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*'''Keep''' per JackyR, XP, etc. You may not agree with the theory; I sure don't. But that's not a reason to delete the article. I also agree with JackyR that this article needs constant editorial oversight to keep it from degenerating. --[[User:Myleslong|Myles Long]] 16:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep''' This article is ONLY unsalvageable for those who don't have the patience to make the effort to keep it NPOV. [[User:TruthCrusader|TruthCrusader]] 16:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''''Weak'' Keep'''. Wikipedia has articles on [[Flat earth]] theory, [[Phrenology]], ''[[Marxism]]'', [[Kennedy assassination theories|Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories]], ''[[The Mismeasure of Man]]'' and other such nonsense, reporting on what large numbers of deluded people believe. In that spirit, this article deserves to be kept. ''However, if it is irredeemably a POV fork, and can't be fixed (or if fixing reduces it to a section-sized article), then it should be deleted.'' '''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]] 17:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)''' (''edited'' '''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]] 20:20, 26 September 2006 (UTC)''')
::And we have an article on [[9/11 conspiracy theories]], so we are providing space for this "nonsense". --[[User:AudeVivere|Aude]] <small>([[User talk:AudeVivere|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/AudeVivere|contribs]] [[User:AudeVivere/Contributions|as tagcloud]])</small> 17:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' and '''ballance'''. From [[WP:V]] ''Verifiability, not truth'' so whether this is "nonsense" does not come into the equation. What is perhaphs a more appropriate policy is [[WP:NPOV]] ''Undue weight''. Firstly is having this article giving undue weight to a particular conspiracy theory? Seeing as how it seems to be the domininant alternative account, covered by a wide varierty of mainstream media I would say not. A second question which does not relate to this AfD is whether this article gives ''undue weight'' to the pro controled demolition advocates against those who disagree with this theory. Jones and Hoffman raise several important questions: namely why were the collapses so neat and tidy, none of the references in the critisim section really address this question. --[[User:Salix alba|Salix alba]] ([[User talk:Salix alba|talk]]) 18:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:This was already decided when the article [[Collapse of the World Trade Center]] was written. The consensus there was that few if any websites that document the controlled demotion "hypothesis" were reliable enough for inclusion in that article, so they were not allowed. This article is a POV fork of the other one, and uses the same websites that were deemed by consesus to not be reliable witnesses. Thonas Basboll, Seabhcan and others weren't able to get the Collapse of the WTC article to look like this one, so this was split, without consesus to do so from [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] and enhanced. The article makes a passing mention that [[Steven E. Jones]] has been placed on academic leave for possible misrepresentation that his work on the controlled demolition theory had been properly vetted, yet this article cites Jones work as if it has been deemed reliable. Several articles already summerize the basic arguments of the controlled demolition argument, including and following [[WP:SS]], the article on Collapse of the WTC...it folows the undue weight guidelines of NPOV policy, which is in accord with reliable references. It doesn't matter how many people believe in controlled demolition...if virtually every structural engineer, implosion expert and the world's major media do not support such evidence, then it is a minority viewpoint that deserves, at best passing mention, and/or no mention at all. This POV fork needs to be deleted.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 19:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
::Mongo is right, we do have a place for this type of stuff, but ''this'' article is a POV fork. We are not deleting the place for this information, only removing the bad info that we can't include anyways due to policy. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 19:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::The problem is that there is by far more than enough media coverage of the theory now to warrant the stand-alone article. POV is not a valid reason for deletion per policy. Notability, however, is valid for inclusion per policy. · [[User_talk:XP|<
::::I'm not convinced that the article, once stripped of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:NOR]] violations, would be large enough to warrant a split. Article size is a reason to split, not "importance". -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 20:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::Well, it is incontrivertable that the theory exists, is believed in to some degree (according to constant poll results) by a significant portion of both American and international populations, and therefore "exists". So therefore the question is whether the article content is significant enough size wise to warrant a split. MONGO referenced approximately 1/4 of the listed references. However, many are primary sources about the theory, so they can be linked to as explanations of the theory. That does leave a possible portion of them up for debate--but thats not a deletion clause. For arguments' sake, if neutral, uninvolved individuals were to delete "in contest" content simply to see what was left, the existing article would be roughly 60%-70% of it's current size--altogether too big to merge into the original parent or grandparent, and therefore under policy due for a split. As the theory's notability is also established beyond a doubt, closing admin should thus close this as a pure '''Keep'''. · [[User_talk:XP|<
::::::I listed almost half the references as being unreliable and yes they establish notability, but they are all from websites that are unreliable for anything other than to be able to say...there a lot of websites that discuss controlled demolition. The problem is simply that no reliable websites, published engineer reports or even the media support the notion of controlled demolition, so since nothing reliable can be sourced, it isn't encyclopedic except to say that a lot of people believe this issue of controlled demolition. I have made it clear...this article is a POV fork of content that was disallowed for the very reasons of lack of [[WP:V]], [[WP:NPOV]], [[WP:OR]] and other guidelines and policies from the Collapse of the WTC article, so it now resides here...that is the definition of a POV fork...[[Wikipedia:Content forking|look it up]].--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 21:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::I have and I strongly disagree with your interpretation and reading of this. Established, incontrovertable facts: '''1)''' The theory is notable in and of itself now due to the massive array of media coverage of it, the 911 Truthers, Jones, Scholars, et al. '''2)''' Many, many people believe in the existence of these theories and their basis, based on the various polls that constantly go around these days. '''3)''' The content simply is notabable enough for coverage on WP, and this seems to revolved around one camp saying x links aren't valid RS, and the other saying they are. '''4)''' #3 is not grounds for deletion. '''5)''' This was a pure fork of the parent, which then expanded--that's not a POV fork, thats what articles do. '''6)''' The parent is already too large. '''7)''' Proper procedure is to clean up this article as it is, not delete it. '''8)''' If the resulting article is too small, then it can be AfD'd for a merger. '''9)''' There is overwhelming concensus here for a keep, as displayed so far, based on all these facts. '''10)''' Above and beyond all these, for procedural reasons this AfD should be tossed as a close. The 1st AfD was [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Controlled-Demolition Theory (9/11 Conspiracy Theory)|11 September 2006]], this one was [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center|22 September 2006]]. That is highly inappropriate as AfD is not to be reran until a desired result is reached. '''11)''' AfD is not a shortcut for editorial process. · [[User_talk:XP|<
::::::::XP...have we met before? I see you're new editor for the most part, but I could swear we have run into each other somewhere else on wiki. The previous Afd did not discuss this article directly...so this on does. There already is an article at [[Collapse of the World Trade Center]] that uses reliable sources and facts...that's why this one is a POV fork. I don't see what further discussion the matter between us will do...time for some super sleuthing.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 06:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
::I recently discovered that the [[Wikipedia:Content forking|guidelines on forking]] say that ''"since what qualifies as a 'POV fork' is itself based on a POV judgement, do not refer to forks as 'POV' — except in extreme cases of repeated vandalism."'' Mongo, of course, does believe that this case constitutes an exception. The troubling thing is that he has now included my work on the [[collapse of the World Trade Center]] in his (somewhat implicit) history of the (presumably) "repeated vandalism" that allows him to refer to this article as a "POV fork". I encourage everyone to have a look at my edits on that article, and especially this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center/archive6] talk archive to see how a consensus for the most controversial of them was built. If I understand Mongo's insinuation here then my work on the article between, say, July 20 and 26 (see[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&diff=65928158&oldid=64930069]) constitutes an extreme case of POV-pushing, which despite the sweeping changes it brought about, left me so unsatisfied that I had to create another article to get all the things in there that were reverted by other editors. Obviously, there is no basis for that insinuation: the article's form and content is very much in line with what I was after and I have come to be very happy with the outcome. Like I say, I am really curious to see what the community's take on Mongo's arguments turns out to be. If they are taken to hold water then Wikipedia is something very different from what I thought it would be. It would mean that this extremely hostile editing environment is indicatitive of the norm, and is not an unfortunate (and hopefully temporary) lack of restraint on the part of what appears to be a perfectly good editor and administrator when working on topics he has a real fondness for and interest in.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 21:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Thomas, it seems very apparent from my previous workings with you, that had you been allowed to violate policy on the Collapse of the WTC article and create an article such as has been done here, you would have originally done so. You did seem to understand at that article why you couldn't have the links you want in this one...what better definition do you want of POV forking?--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 21:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Line 174 ⟶ 186:
* '''Keep''' [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] 21:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete''' If you want people to take this encyclopedia seriously, get rid of this POV pushing nonsense. I believe two planes took down the WTC. (but that’s just my belief). Trash this. [[User:Junglecat|<
*:Okay, you seem to contradict yourself, are you saying that it is POV pushing to put down evidence for and against a theory, simply because it has its own page. And then you state your personal POV and use that as your reason to delete? And if a significant portion of the worlds population has tendencies toward the theory, as referenced by polls about the subject, then would they take it seriously if they thought americans were holding back information just because of their POV. [[User:Ansell/Esperanza|<span style="color:#0000FF;">Ans<span style="color:#009000;">e</span>ll</span>]] 22:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::My input on this is not up for deletion, just this nonsense article. Please… Have you ever watched a ''controlled demolition'' being organized and documented on TLC or Discovery? Did you know that the WTC had a car bomb go off in it many years ago, and it survived. Those two planes were loaded with jet fuel. But believe what you want. Have you ever noticed that if you "chip" away at the word ''believe'', you can get the word ''lie''? Keep on chippin'. Why should Wikipedia be a platform for this crap? Yes, Delete. Thanks for your input. [[User:Junglecat|<
<s>* '''Procedural request:''' This AfD for some reason was *NOT* listed on the log page for the past 48 hours -- why is this? This AfD needs to officially run at least a minimum of 6.5 to 7 days before closure review is allowed, as this has been quited from wide public review. I am adding it there now. · [[User_talk:XP|<
* '''Bizarre''', nevermind. It was cacheing from two days ago; Firefox is possessed. · [[User_talk:XP|<
*'''Merge''' back to [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] So many "strong" votes on this. Let's turn off the emotions, folks, and look at this like robots. Let's read [[WP:POV]] and [[WP:NOT]] and try to personally turn off your thoughts on the subject and judge it according to WP guidelines. There is nothing about this article that should warrant its own page. [[User:Guyanakoolaid|Guyanakoolaid]] 23:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep''' For all the many good reasons already cited on here. My comment: It's amazing to see how many people shout out on this page to delete because they see it as "nonsense" and "cruft" and other derogatory descriptors. I expect most have never looked closely at the issue, but "know" to reject anything from the tin-foil hatters which they see this as a part of. They can't bear the thought of such information "spreading," as though it could "infect" more people. But what does any of that emotional bluster have to do with a neutral presentation of information? Seeing such a furious response to this topic makes it all the more clear how threatened most people who are calling for deletion actually must feel about this issue. Most don't calmly cite logical reasons, they are actually furious, and that comes out in their angry retortions. Why do people get ''that'' angry? Because the demolition hypotesis is a powerful threat to their perception of the world and represents something that most people would far prefer not to ever consider -- ''"please just make that idea go away!"'' -- so that their lives can go on as normal. This is a natural response. If it were indeed only "nonsense," say, a stream of letters which contained no meaning, there would be no such level of vicious statements about it as we see here. There would be annoyance, maybe the average blow up over a detail, but not such a level of war. Unfortunately, this makes the task of admins on this issue all the more superhuman -- to literally rise above the massive emotional response that all Americans have to the issue of 9/11 and examine the issue as though a living robot. Best of luck to you. [[User:Locewtus|Locewtus]] 23:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
'''Delete''', for obvious reasons. The day that even '''<big> ONE </big>''' liscensed SE will put an accreditation on the line for this garbage, it can have its own article. [[User:TDC|Torturous Devastating Cudgel]] 23:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:We aren't discussing the validity of the theory scientifically as a criteria for inclusion, and calling delete based on that is not a valid deletion reason. We don't get to decide if the theory is valid, that's not our business here, our role, or anything else. We just present the facts as neutrally as possible. · [[User_talk:XP|<
:No one is asking licensed SE's to put their accreditation on the line . . . no one is constructing a building, afterall, but rather, examining theories about a collapse -- SE's aren't the only ones who examine forensic evidence when things go wrong. Failures involving fires and explosions involve much more than just how a particular steel assembly behaves under a load. But sad to think what would happen if even one SE were to get out of line and actually consider the question of the issue, in such an evironment. [[User:Locewtus|Locewtus]] 01:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
:Hi Torturous, just to make sure I understand, you will change your vote to "keep" if I cite for you one licensed SE saying CD is the likely explanation? --[[User:JustFacts|JustFacts]] 01:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
::Afd isn't a vote. · [[User_talk:XP|<
:: No I would not change my vote, but I would be interested in seeing it. [[User:TDC|Torturous Devastating Cudgel]] 12:22, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the correction, XP. Torturous, since this is not a general discussion page, I don't think it would be appropriate for me here to provide links just for our private edification. If it's not an issue that would actually change the view yuou express here, it's probably not appropriate. --[[User:JustFacts|JustFacts]] 15:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
'''From [[WP:NOT]]:'''
Line 192 ⟶ 206:
*'''''"You might wish to go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views."'''''
* [[User:Guyanakoolaid|Guyanakoolaid]] 04:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', still a PoV fork, still gives undue weight.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 16:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
====Arbitrary line break to make editing easier for all (4)====
*'''Keep'''
**I've not studied the article in detail, but every sample I looked at seemed to meet wikipedia standards — [[User:Xiutwel|Xiutwel]] <small>[[User_talk:Xiutwel|(talk)]]</small>
**It seems such a waste to delete the result of so much hard work, controversy, and solutions — [[User:Xiutwel|Xiutwel]] <small>[[User_talk:Xiutwel|(talk)]]</small>
**the people (MONGO, at least) proposing delete: you seem to not even have bothered being specific in your criticism. Just some general remark about a soapbox. — [[User:Xiutwel|Xiutwel]] <small>[[User_talk:Xiutwel|(talk)]]</small>
*'''Comment''' I think we need a general debate on this: [[Wikipedia talk:911 POV disputes]] — [[User:Xiutwel|Xiutwel]] <small>[[User_talk:Xiutwel|(talk)]]</small> 18:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Okay, I have about 200kbs of commentary here in detail that clearly explains my rationale for deletion beyond calling the article soapboxing. I can't see how much more detailed i can get when I make it clear in my dicussion that the article is a POV fork...I said that repeatedly.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 19:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
::::That your argument is the length of a dissertation does not make it correct. Precision and brevity is far better, but that does not make it correct either. Put very simply, if the text is no longer in the original article, except a summary paragraph, and if it has been split out into this article, there can be no fork. Instead it is a clerical exercise to split a lengthy article. You need to separate your thoughts on content of the article from the clerical exercise of splitting it. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] 20:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::That reasoning is flawed. I have summarized why this is a POV fork, so I'll do it again. Half the links in this article were disallowed for not meeting [[WP:RS]] of which they failed to meet [[WP:V]] in themselves from the main article [[Collapse of the World Trade Center]]. So instead, it was put in the article [[9/11 conspiracy theories]]. This article is a POV fork of the main article because this is the information that was disallowed in the main article..it just resides here now. Had some editors been allowed to put these unreliable sources in the main article, it would have looked a lot more like this one. You need to to understand what is a POV fork and what isn't. If this article were to have all the unreliable sources removed it what remained could then be reinserted back into the 9/11 conspiracy theories article. The 9/11 conspiracy theories article needs massive reduction of unrelaibale sources itself...all those sources are good for is to demonstrate that the theories are notable becuase their are a lot of websites out there, but those websites are controlled by only one or a few webmaster and are not relaibale witness since they are based on fiction.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 20:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::No, that reasoning is not flawed. The rebuttal you have just made is based on an incorrect starting assumption. It is very simple in reality. Split the article. No fork. Edit the split article down. Still no fork. Reduce any uncitable POV in the article, but not the aticle's commenary about the POV in the theeories. Still no fork. If you were correct I woudl agree with you. And for the recod I have no interest in these articles per se, no emotional connection with the atrocity, and simply think it was a sad and unwelcome event. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] 21:19, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::*200 kilobytes per second? I'm impressed :) Seriously, I've missed it on the talk page. Could you please just link to it instead of saying "here"? About POV fork, I was not aware of this term but I think it is not right to believe that some articles would be subject to different guidelines than others. I think the forks are not to '''allow''' for cruft theories, unsourced, but to keep the main article readable, because elaboration of every doubt would destroy readability. To keep wikipedia consistent, however, the main article should be formulated cautiously where the Fork article would dig deeper into the specifics of the doubts. (Hey, I'll [[Wikipedia talk:911 POV disputes|copy]] this.) — [[User:Xiutwel|Xiutwel]] <small>[[User_talk:Xiutwel|(talk)]]</small> 21:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::I sort of see what you're driving at here, Mongo. What you're saying is that the stuff in the 9/11 CT article was a POV fork from the WTC collapse article and that was somehow acceptable until it was split out for clerical reasons. Is that right? The move from Collapse of WTC to 9/11 CT was before my time. But the article we're discussing now (as many have noted above) could also have been reasonably created from scratch, at least today. It's a popular idea with notable proponents. But, like I say, I can see how the history of this problem might blind someone to seeing that. I think we will get this article onto a footing of RS, but I don't think it will ever get down to a size such that merging it will be the right thing to do. 9/11 CTs have many components, and are so broadly recognized today that presenting these components in detail and in their own articles does not give them undue weight. It just gives them the attention they deserve. I think the backstory you bring up here, while perhaps unfortunate (if accurate), may be obscuring the real reasons that this article is necessary. Anyway, thanks for clarifying.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 21:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::Not to be a broken record, but if you take out the unreliable sources from this article and the 9/11 conspiracy theories article, you end up with maybe a 60kb article...which is bigger than the recommended size but smaller than many featured articles of which I have edited...if things are disqualifed from one article, they can't simply be placed in another due to them being POV and unreliable without it then becoming a POV fork...that is the definition of POV fork. Not being able to examine "closely enough" or whatever in the main article, evidence which is deemed unreliable, doesn't allow the creation of an article, even under a different name, that follows different rules than those that apply to all articles on Wikipedia. From [[Wikipedia:Content forking]], "''A '''content fork''' is usually an unintentional creation of several separate articles all treating the same subject. A '''POV fork''' is a content fork deliberately created to avoid [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]] guidelines, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. Both content forks and POV forks are undesirable on Wikipedia, as they avoid consensus building and violate one of our most important policies.''" Please understand this guideline.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 21:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::You remind me of my best defense: "A POV fork is a content fork ''deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines''." Since that was my not my intent when I created this article, this is not a POV fork. The intention is to produce an NPOV article on the controlled demolition hypothesis. Nothing about the split from 9/11 CTs to a separate article will avoid consensus building. On the contrary, its creator (me) is currently trying to build consensus for a focus and acceptable sources. Lastly, the CDH article will have much more information than either the 9/11 CT article or the WTC collapse article.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 21:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::It's necessary to have a separate article to cover the subject in detail. This is quite normal. It is not a POV fork, because it does not advocate a biased interpretation of another article. It gives a balanced interpretation, but a fuller one, of a small part of another article. It's a subject that's known about worldwide, so wiki needs to be an authoratitive and accurate source on it (as on anything else) if it is to be a leading work. To do anything else, is against the interests of building a comprehensive encyclopedia. [[User:Tyrenius|Tyrenius]] 23:52, 26 September 2006 (UTC) (I do not believe the US govt is responsible for 9/11)
:::::::::No, it is not necessary to have such an article, and the proponents of this theory are pushing for a separate article simply to boost its importance. Given that the only major external direct treatment is in one New Yorker piece (which, incidentally, goes into far less detail than it does here), and some allusive references in some rebuttal pieces, it is not at all clear that this subject warrants an individual article. Moreover, absent a reliable secondary source, saying "the New Yorker mentioned this guy, and Bazant alluded to another, so we should synthethize them into one theory" is a patent violation of NOR. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 00:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::Please avoid speculation about people's motives and ''ad hominem'' comments, unless you can prove what you allege. The theory of controlled demolition is well known about. I've certainly heard about it, and I'm not particularly interested in the subject. Haven't you heard about it, prior to reading this article? Wiki is a source of knowledge. Provide that knowledge without prejudice. [[User:Tyrenius|Tyrenius]] 00:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
====Arbitrary line break to make editing easier for all (5)====
* '''Comment:''' Googling for [http://www.google.com/search?hs=8yM&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=controlled+demolition&btnG=Search "controlled demolition"] take me to page 70, and 691 - 698 of about 3,670,000. [http://www.google.com/search?q=controlled+demolition+WTC&hl=en&hs=SVh&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&start=690&sa=N "controlled demolition WTC"] is 68 pages, 671 - 677 of about 702,000. [http://www.google.com/search?q=controlled+demolition+world+trade+center&hl=en&hs=wqM&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&start=630&sa=N "controlled demolition world trade center"] is 64 pages, 631 - 636 of about 895,000. [http://www.google.com/search?q=controlled+demolition+911&hl=en&hs=iXh&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&start=630&sa=N "Controlled demolition 911"] is 63 pages, 621 - 629 of about 1,270,000. [controlled demolition 9/11 "controlled demolition 9/11"] is 71 pages, 701 - 708 of about 934,000. A simple [http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=controlled+demolition Google News search for controlled demolition] turns up 278 news sources. Keep in mind that's only recent stuff--the past 1-2 months. [http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&ie=UTF-8&q=controlled+demolition+9%2F11&btnG=Search+News "controlled demolition 9/11"] on Google News is 146 sources--again, the past month or two only there; lots of older stuff is obviously about. The idea of the theory is clearly notable, and there are clearly MANY sources out there that have not been accessed and used yet. That includes "off line" sources such as books, magazines, print journals, newspapers that don't archive online (or indefinitely), slews of foreign media and books as well. Basically, the point is that the topic is clearly notable in and of itself, and *more* than enough data is out there online *alone* to give this enough content and sourcing to be on the level of a Featured Article. To delete, in the face of all this coverage online alone--keeping in mind the Internets are still a microcosm only of the real world--would be an affront to our goal of being the sum total of human knowledge, as Jimbo Wales put it. · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 00:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::Here's just a couple from esteemed UK paper ''The Guardian''. [http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,,1868479,00.html][http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1739254,00.html] If it is covered internationally in the press, it is by definition not "cruft", which is trivial material of interest only to afficianados of a topic, so can we please have a bit of objective intellectual rigour brought to the matter. [[User:Tyrenius|Tyrenius]] 01:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC)(I do not believe the US government is responsible for 9/11)
:::Ditto, for the curious--I argue because I honestly believe it's notable enough and with enough coverage to merit a standalone article, and the previous arguments of delete for lack of validity can be discounted utterly: if we delete unprovable theories/ideas, then all religous articles are gone. For deletion based on NPOV/POV--this has been demonstrated as not a fork, and POV editorial issues are never a deletion reason anyway; it's a reason to edit and do the only thing we are here to do: build the encyclopedia. Questions of no interest, lack of interest, etc., are dispelled by these simple searches, proving notability. And for what it's worth, I think the towers were brought down by 15 radical terrorists that ''both'' the current and previous US administrations did not do enough to counter ahead of time, simply from organizational complacency. "They don't do things ''here"'', and so forth. I think the only valid conspiracy is that a young John F. Kennedy together with future enemy Oswald covered up the Roswell incident to further Halliburton's oil profits (I'm kidding, obviously). · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 01:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Google is not a 100% litmus test. Search for my user name, I am the [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=junglecat #2 hit]. Wow! I need [[groupies]]! Second, isn’t Google an active webcrawler? (I am not an expert on the internet or computer jargon). If this is the case, isn’t this dispute and more talk here with the combination of the "time of residence" that the article has on this respected encyclopedia have an effect on Google searches? You know, when I do Google searches, I bet 75 to 90% of the time Wiki has covered whatever it was. Are we having that type of influence??? After all It’s Google! <small>(BTW… I would like to have groupies!)</small> [[User:Junglecat|<span style="color:green;">JungleCat</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Junglecat|<span style="color:blue;">talk</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Junglecat|<span style="color:blue;">contrib</span>]]</small> 01:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::Any topic which has an "article" will have significantly higher Google search response over time for any search matching the name of that search. This is due to WP's massive Google ranking, and the fact the interconnected nature of the Wiki boosts it in turn. Any page that has few wikilinks into it will do worse; those with more into it do significantly better. It would be a violation of [[WP:AGF]] to assume or say that people want the article gone to keep general public access to the information that may or may not be in the article minimized in terms of public exposure, due to this. That unsaid, anyone even considering such reasons for Keep or Delete are both (either side) wildly abusing the principle of Wikipedia and the encyclopedia itself. No personal bias or reasoning in any or all directions can be allowed in article name space and will be stopped. · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 01:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::Yes I agree that bias needs to be stopped and that's one big reason to delete this article. Notability of subjects like this that require reliable references from the engineering community and other experts demonstrate that aside from a few that have yet to publish a scientific treatise on the issue, it completely fails notability aside from a bunch of POV websites that have no editorial review from outside parties. These websites can produce whatever nonsense they wish. We have an encyclopedic article at Collapse of the World Trade Center...and this one has a lot of the "references" that failed notability there, so they do so here as well. When the consensus doesn't agree to having some information in one article and then it shows up in another that looks at the same issue, that is a POV fork...it's very plain.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 06:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm a touch flabbergasted by your non-policy based reasoning above. Let's go by [[WP:DELETE]], which is the only thing that matters here. [http://news.google.com/news?ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=%22controlled+demolition%22+9/11&sa=N&start=70 Hows this for RS sources?] When clicking that Google News link--yes, ''some'' are not RS-qualifying, but the vast majority overwhelmingly are. And that's just <i>recently.</i> Also, where in policy did you determine that we need "notable" structural engineers to validate the <I>validity</i> of this theory to have it be an article? The topic of this article is [[WP:V]]: the theory exists. We have <i>mounds</i> of [[WP:RS]] qualifying sources discussing it. Newspapers. Magazines. News shows. Books. Independent films. Also, from the Deletion Policy:
:::::All text created in the Wikipedia main [[Wikipedia:Namespace|namespace]] is subject to several important rules, including three cardinal content policies ([[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view]], [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]], and [[Wikipedia:No original research]]) and the copyright policy ([[Wikipedia:Copyrights]]). Together, these policies govern the admissibility of text in the main body of the encyclopedia, and only text conforming to all four policies is allowed in the main namespace.
:::::A failure to conform to a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]] is usually remedied through ''editing'' for neutrality, but text that does not conform to any of the remaining three policies is usually ''removed'' from Wikipedia, either by removing a passage or section of an otherwise satisfactory article or by removing an entire article if nothing can be salvaged.
Therefore, [[WP:OR]] comments are not applicable--per AfD policy, that is an editorial matter, not grounds for any deletion, period. [[WP:NOT]] is not applicable for the subject itself--all those statements can be tossed by the closing admin. Issues with internal content are addressed by editing, not deletion. I and others have established amply simple and robust notability for the theory. Ergo, it counts on that mark. Again, we have [[WP:RS]] talking about it, and we can [[WP:V]] facts about the <I>the theory.</i> Any comment implying, suggesting, stating, or demanding that the theory <I>itself</i> be validated to count for an article are irrelevant personal opinions which have no bearing on policy or how Wikipedia works. We have many, many, many articles on things which empirically '''cannot''' be scientifically confirmed, in any fashion. As mentioned above by others, anyone wish to stand by the courage of your convictions and AfD [[God]], [[Love]], [[Ghost]], [[Lochness Monster]], [[Illuminati]], [[Reptilian humanoid]], [[Montauk Project]], and [[Elvis sightings]]? This is clearly now a resounding and overwhelming '''Keep'''. Also, this is likely the last gasp. Each year as this eventually even becomes a facet of folklore (if it isn't already) the yearly increase in coverage of this, each year, every year, will make this a permanent article. After all, people (especially in America) are still talking about the [[Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge debate]] all these years later, and the JFK theories. · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 06:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::I should add any Lexus-Nexis (or similar) search by those with access to such systems for "controlled demolition 9/11" would also beyond any shadow of any doubts establish validity to the existence of this article (in likely epic fashion, being a search of all published news articles...). · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 06:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
What we are saying is that the premise of the article is OR. There are a few self-published sources (Jones and Hoffman) making these claims, who blatanly fail WP:RS. The New Yorker article mentions such a hypothesis, but does not treat the elements of the "hypothesis" in detail. Just because these people and their beliefs are ALLUDED to in reliable sources DOES NOT open the door to using them as primary sources. There is no collective "Controlled demolition hypothesis"; there are merely a number of theories and questions foisted by members of the conspiracy theory (or truth) movement which can be discussed. If you wish to collect these theories together, great. Blogspot's got plenty of webspace.
There is no "Controlled demolition hypothesis", not as advanced by any reliable source. There are people who believe "Controlled demolition hypothe'''ses'''" of one sort or another, but they do not collectively make fodder for an article.
Reliable sources state "there are people who believe the building was brought down by controlled demolition". There are self-published sources that explain the reasoning and rationale for such a belief. The synthesis clause of NOR prevents us from using the former as a gateway toward inclusion of the latter. It's that simple. The 9/11 conspiracy article is the natural place to explain the former; nobody is saying that there aren't people that believe in controlled demolition. That's as far as the reliable sources go. None of them advance the theory and there is no place on wiki for delving into self-published and other such sources to fill that gap, which this article is an invitation towards. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 06:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)--[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 06:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::For you: What do you think about deleting these articles: should they go too? [[God]], [[Love]], [[Ghost]], [[Lochness Monster]], [[Illuminati]], [[Reptilian humanoid]], [[Montauk Project]], and [[Elvis sightings]]? I can't prove them, either, and no RS really pushes them, but lots of people believe in them. · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 06:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Hmm... your stock examples. Do you look at the sources? Just a sampling, each has numerous reliable sources.
::::*God: ""God" in Honderich, Ted. (ed)The Oxford Companion to Philosophy, Oxford University Press, 1995."
::::*Love: "Helen Fisher. Why We Love: the Nature and Chemistry of Romantic Love"
::::*Ghost: "Jung on Synchronicity and the Paranormal by C. G. Jung and Roderick Main (Paperback - Oct 5, 1998)"
::::*[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3096839.stm], [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lochness/legend3.html]. Seems to me that the RS's point to the Loch Ness being a hoax or meme and the wording ofthe article should be changed; but one edit dispute at a time.
::::*Illuminati: "The Illuminatus! Trilogy: The Eye in the Pyramid, The Golden Apple, Leviathan by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson"
::::*You've got me on reptilian humanoid, I fail to see any RS's (unless you consider Icke one), and I wouldn't really care if it went away. But, again, one dispute at a time.
::::*I'm not of the inclination or training to judge whether the cited sources for Marx's alienation are RS or not, and it's late. But yes, if they're all his students citing him, that would fail to be notable enough for an article independent of Marx. --07:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
XP, I can see you simply don't understand the policies of this website. Last time...I'll make it easy to understand: Much of this information was not allowed in the Collapse of the WTC article..so now it is here...that makes it a POV fork...hello. The policies you cite above are indeed applicable in any and all deletions, so that's bewildering that you would think they aren't. Yes, [[WP:NPOV]]...the undue weight clause...clearly applies...it is a non notable subject since no reliable references are available that support the controlled demolition issue...so it gets a passing mention in the Collapse of the WTC article...in keeping with NPOV undue weight....the number of folks out there that "believe" in CD of the WTC are meaningless...because that is just an opinion. If you take the nonsense out of this article, you get about 5 kbs left...and that's about it (of course the mainstream references in the article that are only there as refutation of the CD argument wouldn't be needed hardly at all). Mainstream engineers don't address the CD argument usually, because it is an obvious waste of their time.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 06:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::I'm thinking I'm understanding them, and I regret that I begin to believe my Google comment above is actually playing a role here based on seen editorial histories. Anyway, shall we AfD [[Bigfoot]] as no RS can confirm the big lug exists? Lots of people ''believe'' in him, but that's not enough? · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 06:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Appealing to other articles as some sort of "precedent" is a false argument. But in case you're preparing such an AfD, Bigfoot has an abundace of reliable sources that directly address the subject matter, not just allusory comments. If all that were available were Simpsons references and CNN news snippets, yes it would be worth deleting. What would there be to say? "CNN reports alleged sightings of bigfoot; the Simpsons parodied it"? The bigfoot article itself seems to have some reliance on non-RS, but we aren't discussing Bigfoot. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 06:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::That's an interesting anaology, but of course we don't delete Bigfoot or anything like that...we follow the policies and guidelines, and if that was done here, we wouldn't be dealing with a "Hypothesis that Bigfoot is real" article which would be a POV fork.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 06:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Indeed, "Hypothesis of the Existence of Loch Ness" would be a gross violation of NPOV, and even the current article that states "Lochness is a mysterious and unidentified animal or group of animals" is unsupported by RS and should be changed. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 07:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:"Much of this information was not allowed in the Collapse of the WTC article," says Mongo, "...so now it is here...that makes it a POV fork." While I'm not sure Bigfoot and Nessie are the best analogies, keep in mind that much of the information in the articles that cover them would not be allowed in the articles on the [[Rocky Mountains]] (or [[biped|bipeds]]) or [[Loch Ness]] (the loch, not the monster.) [[Bigfoot]] is a legitimate article even given the existence of an article on [[cryptozoology]] (the study of "hypothetical creatures" as the article puts it; compare: [[9/11 conspiracy theories]]). [[Patterson-Gimlin film]] article is legitimate despite the existence of the [[Bigfoot]] article and it would not be allowed in any of the articles that cover the fauna of Northern California. That said, I do appreciate the critique of the title (Bigfoot hypothesis and Loch Ness Monster hypothesis would not be great, but simply calling it "Controlled demolition of the World Trade Center" would go too far in the other direction, I think. Maybe I'm wrong about that.)--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 08:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
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*'''Comment on "self-published" sources''': It is false to suggest that Jones is "self-published". His paper has been published in a book edited by Peter Dale Scott and David Ray Griffin (Olive Branch Press/Interlink). There is plenty of non-self-published material to work with, BTW: Griffin's paper on the WTC was published in ''The Hidden History of 9-11'' by Elsevier. Tarpley's ''Synthetic Terror'' is published by Progressive Press. One may not like the editorial policies of these publishers, but these books are not "self-published".--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 09:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' I was talking elsewhere about this. I see a lot of POV pushing on both sides based on people's beliefs. Some think these conspiracy things are non-sense and unpatriotic. Some think that the government did this and that the people who want to delete it work for the government as CIA/Homeland Security/Majestic 12 at Area 51. Basicaly my reasoning is simple. To some extent the conspiracy stuff is notable. How notable and to which article I don't know. But the main thing is that if an article gets too long it should be split. This one article itself is HUGE (I didn't read it). The voting page is HUGE. The references on it is 105. If it could be slimmed down to a stub, I would vote to have the content moved to something else. But it is so freaking LOOOONG the article itself probably should be split into two articles just so it's not too long. [[User:Anomo|Anomo]] 10:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' Just a couple of observations and a summary at this late hour. The concensus in pure concensus terms is significantly more in the Keep side rather than any other (yes, AfD is not a vote, but yes also that the much larger majority clearly believes the article has merit and legs based on this). All the delete reasons seem to be one of four points: 1) That the article should be deleted as non-notable (beyond disproven); 2) the theory itself needs validation from qualified sources to merit inclusion (absolutely inappropriate deletion reason--many articles in scientifically unproven theories ranging from God to Bigfoot exist); 3) POV fork (this is highly disputed and refuted); 4) various scattered reasons which it is not a violation of [[WP:AGF]] to say are clearly based on personal reasons, rather than policy (all of them can be safely discounted--I respect ones' personal beliefs, but they are not appropriate for consideration or discussion relevant to Main article space matters). And again, this already passed AfD [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Controlled-Demolition_Theory_%289/11_Conspiracy_Theory%29 once as a keep], exactly ''10 days'' before this AfD. You cannot rerun an AfD until you get the desired result, and subsequent AfDs before at least 4-6 months after this one should be closed immediately on disruption grounds. [[WP:CCC]] is not applicable or appropriate either as concensus cannot trump or overrule the 5 Pillars of Wikipedia, and the notability and validity of the article under policy has been established already once. · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 15:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' There is an argument that the "theory" in this article is nonsense, or that it cannot be proved scientifically, and therefore there should not be an article about it. This is not a basis for not having an article, if the subject itself is widely known about. As I've pointed out above it has received mainstream UK press coverage. If it is nonsense or unproven, that is a basis for an article that communicates these things, and therefore serves wiki's purpose of being informative and authoritative, as is done with other possibly comparable subjects. See [[List of conspiracy theories]]. There is no reason to treat this subject any differently. [[User:Tyrenius|Tyrenius]] 15:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::I don't object to having some coverage of controlled demolition on Wikipedia, and not arguing that Wikipedia should not cover 9/11 conspiracy theories. However, "controlled demolition" is a central, key aspect of the [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] article. The [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] is ''the article'' that covers "controlled demolition" and properly puts it into context of the other various theories. --[[User:AudeVivere|Aude]] <small>([[User talk:AudeVivere|talk]])</small> 15:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::I suppose that's your opinion, as opposed to the majority, and its down to the closing admin to decide now... · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 15:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::The article is covered in accordance with the undue weight provision of NPOV already over in the Collapse of the World Trade Center article. The reason undue weight applies to this subject is that there is indeed a scientifically and correctly evauluated body of research that completely refutes the lack of scientific evidence that controlled demolition happened...it doesn't do this in a direct rebuttal format but it doesn't need to since there is no evidence to refute. It makes a passing mention, in accordance with undue weight...this article therefore, which has information that was unreliable is a POV fork. Should this article be erroneously kept, all mention of this nonsense will have to disappear from the main article aside from a link to be in accordance with policy. XP keeps talking about the majority, what majority? I see some people who want to violate policy and keep this article, but I see no majority anywhere, and if fact, the majority, definitely demonstrate either a desire to delete this article, or have weak reasons for keeping it.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 15:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::You've ignored my comment above. The truth or otherwise of this theory is not the reason for its being kept: it is the widespread knowledge of it that matters. If this article is kept, then there should be a summary in the main article, and a link to this, as is standard procedure. Please [[WP:AGF|AGF]] and realise that those who don't agree with you also have the best interests of wikipedia in mind. [[User:Tyrenius|Tyrenius]] 17:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::"Afd is not a vote", but-- Keep: 34; Delete (or clearly thus): 25; merge/middle ground: 3. Simply labeling as where my barometer of concensus was based on. That is as of 12:00pm New York time. I will add this is almost an identicle ratio of support for Keep that the last [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Controlled-Demolition_Theory_%289/11_Conspiracy_Theory%29 AfD enjoyed] 10 days ago, and is actually more ratio-wise in favor or support on ''this'' AfD, indicating concensus has moved more still to the Keep side · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 16:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::The argument left is a vote tally then? I see 29 delte, 33 keep, 1 weak keep, 1 weak delete...so 30 delete to 34 keep...so based on the tally, the consensus would be to keep, but that means we end up with an article that is a POV fork of several but mainly one other article...an advocacy platform for information that is not supported by any fact based information, only some websites and other material that is either out there to make a buck at the expense of a lot of murdered people, or because some people wish to believe in fairy tales.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 16:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::Everything you cite that falls under policy is reason to edit the article into a shape you feel falls under policy. And "out there to make a buck at the expense of a lot of murdered people, or because some people wish to believe in fairy tales" is not relevant (I'm sorry to say). Our opinions on any subject matter do not matter, mine, nor yours. · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 16:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::We already did that at the Collapse of the WTC article...that's why this one is a POV fork. [[WP:NOT]] is clear on this issue as well, since Wikipedia is not an indiscrimate collection of information, not a soapbox and not a publisher of original thought.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 16:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Your opinion of the interpretation of policy, and again, neither your nor my final decision now. It is strictly for a neutral admin now. · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 16:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Footnote: I can't think of anything else for any of us to cover at this point, barring new, ''original'' comments or thought by new people being added for the rest of the day. Everything else is just going to be a circular rehash of all already debated points. · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 17:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::Wikipedia is "not a soapbox and not a publisher of original thought", so people should not express their personal opinions, including the opinion that these theories are nonsense. That is what the article should examine from a NPOV. [[User:Tyrenius|Tyrenius]] 17:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::Baloney...any opinion can be expressed in comments, and if they are in article space, they only need a reference...where did you hear that people couldn't express themselves? This article is a POV fork, whether you wish to believe so or not and gross mischaracterizations of policies is not something I am impressed with when done by an admin.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 18:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::My quote is from your comment earlier. We don't delete articles on the basis of personal opinions, I hope. Please steer clear of the ''ad hominem''. Thanks. [[User:Tyrenius|Tyrenius]] 20:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::: Opinions if sourced/compliant with policy can be entered if the source reported them. Your take/opinion, nor mine, is acceptable. · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 18:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::Wrong...so very wrong you are. The purpose of Afd more so than anything else is the points made so points stated as to the worth of an article can and will be made as that is the purpose of discussion. Trying to silence your opposition when you have no valid arguments is not an effective way to achieve your objective here. The fact that no one can demostrate that this article isn't a POV fork and keep harping that it is some great value to Wikipedia fail to see the fact that the issues are covered already in accordance wioth the undue weight clause of NPOV...read the policy and educate yourselves.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 18:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::::While a demonstration (of a negative) may indeed be impossible, I think it's pretty easy to see, if you look at the split and the justifications offered for it on the talk pages, along with the recent edit histories that pertain to the WTC section (of the 9/11 conspiracy article at the time), that it was not carried out in reaction to any POV conflicts. It didn't try to avoid such conflicts; it was simply an attempt to clean up. So I think the burden of proof is on you Mongo. You've tried to identify possible motives by going back to something that happened on the WTC collapse article long ago. But you have not successfully shown that those were my motives, or that those motives will guide the development of the newly split article. In fact, everything since "controlled demolition" was introduced in the WTC collapse article in its present form indicates that you're dealing with reasonable people doing their best to present controversial material in an NPOV manner. IMHO.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 20:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Thomas, you essentially rewrote the Collapse of the WTC article, unfettered for the most part, and evn endorsed by myself and others. It was made clear then that most of the questionable references I have listed previously here, we're disallowed in that article, yet now they are here, a repository of links that were unacceptable there. The controlled demolition "hypothesis" is a fabrication that is only supported by these questionable links and the basis of the information was originally on the 9/11 conspiracy theories article, yet was moved here, re-termed as a hypothesis (which is isn't) and then the article goes on to use, multiple times, the work of a gentleman who is currently under adminstrative leave pending a review of his work, which, as evidence supports, has not been adequately peer reviewed or published by a reliable and neutral third party organization...it was published by an unreliable and biased organization as it helps them to promote their conspiracy theory. This article is a POV fork of the main one which you rewrote. Once the unreliable info is taken out of this article, you end up with a stub. About all you can say on the matter and be reliable is: ''Controlled demolition issues regarding the collapse of the WTC were examined by NIST and the conclusion was that no evidence exists to support the hypothesis. There have abeen several engineers and one phycists that have stated that the collapse of the WTC could have or looks as though it was due to controlled demolition, yet this has not been sanctinoned by the engineering community as a whole and no relaibale published material has been produced regarding the issue.''...that ;s the whole ballgame, and trying to stretch it out into something is isn't by using unreliable sources is not in keeping with policy. It deserves a passing mention, at best, and that is what it gets in the article you yourself rewrote.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 20:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::::::(shifting left)
:Mongo, you seem to be conflating two different editing conflicts. The rewriting I participated in on the WTC article did not involve this "repository of quetionable links". Look back at the discussion that introduced my edits, and later led to the foregrounding of NIST's collapse mechanism. They all involved solid sources.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 20:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:PS. To say that my work on that article was "unfettered" and "endorsed" by you demands that we ignore the part that took the most time: the rewriting of the "conspiracy theory" section into the "controlled demolition" section.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 20:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::Precisely...we argued there about these references and the consensus was that they not be in that article since they failed to meet policy and guidelines...now, here we are again, arguing about the same thing, but this time it's in the POV fork version...deja vue?--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 21:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::No, Mongo: those references were not at issue. If you thought they were you were not reading my proposed edits. I suggested using the mainstream news source that was already in there when I started, the NIST report, the New Civil Engineer, <s>and an engineering paper</s> [that came later].--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 21:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::: Where have I heard that before? :) · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 17:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
My recollection is that Thomas wanted to use links to variuos websites that had previously (before he started editing) not been considered to be within policy for inclusion, on the Collapse of the World Trade Center article. I am probably wrong in that assessment. The effort that Thomas made to bring the Collapse of the World Trade Center article up to standards is indication that he probably has the ability to produce featured quality articles if he so chooses.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 07:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
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*'''Procedural Comment''' Correct me if I am mistaken, but tallies during AfDs are deprecated, are they not? This AfD requires a wholly uninvolved, totally disinterested and highly experienced Admin to close it. One who will read the monotonous argument, counter argument and repeats thereof, and will sort out the wheat from the chaff calmly. Since emotions are running high on this it might even be wise (assuming procedures will allow it, and using the spirit of [[WP:IAR]] if they do not) to close the discussion prior to considering and posting the outcome. Were I an admin, and were I to be stuck with the task of closing this monster I would look not only at the arguments made in this discussion, but at many surrounding circumstances and naturally at the article itself, knowing that this was also likely to be taken by either "side" to deletion review. And I would write a small treatise on why I reached the conclusions I reached. I am pleased I am not in this position. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] 16:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::My count was simply to explain my current concensus position. EDIT: Also, I like your idea of closing admin detailing at length the reasoning, so no one comes away with hurt feelings on either side. · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 16:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::Keeps don't have a review process such as Deletion review.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 16:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::So they don't. Silly me. But those who wish to delete do have the option of further nominations for deletion, which, in some ways, amounts to the same thing. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] 16:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Provided ample time has elapsed from one AfD to another (any repeat of this one should it be a keep sooner than 6+ months would likely be inappropriate--two keeps in two weeks is ample proof of worth, if this is a keep). Repeated AfDing quickly can be seen as a disruption/POINT violation. · [[User_talk:XP|<span style="color:#0518A7;">'''XP'''</span>]] · 16:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::Actually, I've seen a number of "Keep" results taken to [[Wikipedia:Deletion Review]]. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] | [[User_talk:Arthur_Rubin|(talk)]] 22:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::'''I volunteer to close it.''' [[User:Grandmasterka|<span style="color:red;">Grand</span>]][[User talk:Grandmasterka|<span style="color:blue;">master</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Grandmasterka|<span style="color:green;">ka</span>]] 02:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::I '''support''' having this admin close this dispute. I feel he will be impartial and will act in an unbiased manner.--[[User:Shortfuse|Shortfuse]] 03:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::If shortfuse thinks Grandmasterka is the best candidate to close this Afd, then I would prefer to have someone else. Thanks.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 03:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::Are you questioning [[User:Grandmasterka|Grandmasterka]]'s neutrality in evaluating this AfD? If not, what's the issue? [[User:Sparkhead|<b><span style="color:green;">Sparkhead</span></b>]] 03:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::I am now in the process of closing it. I think I can be unbiased. If you wish to make additional points, do it in the next few minutes, I will check the history. [[User:Grandmasterka|<span style="color:red;">Grand</span>]][[User talk:Grandmasterka|<span style="color:blue;">master</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Grandmasterka|<span style="color:green;">ka</span>]] 04:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::::Your volunteerin to close this and th support to do so by two folks that voted keep makes you a bad candidate to do so and may lead to a sitaution. I don';t like to make threats, but being over eager in this fashion, I doubt you understand that this article is a POV fork. Afd is not a vote.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::::You know as well as I do that this article is a content fork from [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] as a result of that article becoming too long. Such content forks are indispensible tools for organizing large amounts of information, and in no way violate policy. --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 05:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::::::This is realy simple. We have an admin who has not been involved in the discussion and who has volunteered to close this discussion. Since no-one would take on this task lightly it follows that the result is likely to be based on sound assessment of the Wikipedia policies together with the content of the article itself, the various arguments put forward here, a judgement about <u>content fork</u> vs <u>POV fork</u> (valid and desirable vs deprecated and deletable). Since the closure of this nomination is subject to scrutiny at so many levels the closing statement is likely to be more than a single "keep" or "Delete". And it is most unlikely to be based upon a "vote". I think complaining about our volunteer because one person has said "Seems impartial to me" is probably human nature, but is not wholly helpful. After all, we have so many systems in place for scrutiny that it would not matter, except transiently, if this person were biased as biased could be, though I have every expectation that is not the case. Let's just wish them luck and give them space to work, and not expect results for a reasonable period of time [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] 06:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Yeah, but I am aware of the person who has stated that they support this admin for the closing, otherwise I would agree. Whatever is decided by the closing admin will get no response one way or the other from me. Their decision will be accepted as final.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 06:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
No, the article has links that were not permitted by policy in the Collapse of the WTC article, and the split of this article from 9/11 conspiracy theories was not supported by consensus to do so. If you remove the same unrelaibale links from this article that weren't permitted in the other one, you end up with a stub, nicely rolled back into the 9/11 CT article, where it belongs.
--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:If you think there are inpermissible links in the article, that's an issue for the editorial process. It solves nothing to delete the article - the debate over whether the links should exist would simply spill back to the main, now more bloated, 9/11 CT article. --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 05:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
::We already did that, over at the Collapse of the WTC article...why do it again? If we eliminate the sources that fail [[WP:RS]] due to problems with them meeting [[WP:V]], then we have no need even for the factual rebuttal of th eremaining links from NIST, FEMA and the rest of the sources that meet policy...you then have a stub...that's all.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:::The body of this article originated on the [[9/11 Conspiracy Theories]] page. Thus, saying it's a fork of [[Collapse of the World Trade Center]] is completely without merit - the fact that a parallel argument exists on this article that existed on that article does not create a "fork." Why have the argument in both places? Well, because it exists in both places. That's pretty common when you have a topic big enough to encompass many articles. --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 05:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong keep''' - [[9/11 Conspiracy Theories]] was far, far too long, and branching off this theory - arguably the most notable of them all - was the proper remedy. The theory is obviously notable; it is obviously verifiable as the article is well-sourced. It is in no way unencyclopedic. Every reason given for deletion appears to me to actually be a reason to continue the editorial process. --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 22:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - Yes it could use a bit of cleanup but links mentioning the theory, including at least one link from [http://usinfo.state.gov/ http://usinfo.state.gov/] seem notable and reliable. There have been some changes [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&diff=78189963&oldid=76042873 (diff here)] since the fork, but nothing to say the article has degraded beyond repair since the fork, which passed keep the last AfD (or whatever that double-AfD was). By the way, for an admin to make the statement ''The article will be deleted...I just thought I would bring it here for discussion...it's your job to convince me to not delete it. Since the article is a soapbox platform, that is a clear violation of [[WP:NOT]].'' is outrageous. Seems he acknowledged such by removing it from this page. [[User:Sparkhead|<b><span style="color:green;">Sparkhead</span></b>]] 03:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
::The only thing that is outrageous is those that fail to see a POV fork when it is staring them right in the face. I removed the comment myself so what's your point? Afd is not a vote and not one person who has voiced keep has understood that this article is a POV fork of [[Collapse of the World Trade Center]].--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:::That's because it's not, MONGO. It's a content fork from [[9/11 Conspiracy Theories]]. A great deal of the text is simply cut-and-pasted from that article because it was too long. Thus, if you're arguing that this article is a POV fork and must be deleted, you're necessarily arguing that [[9/11 Conspiracy Theories]] itself is a POV fork and must be deleted. --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 05:26, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
::::No, I am not suggesting that the CD issue should not be covered, I am stating that it doesn't need it's own article...the 9/11 CT article needs a lot of trimming too as a matter of fact...--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::Well, that sounds like an argument that it's an unnecessary content fork - something that may be subject to deletion if there's a consensus that it's unnecessary, but is certainly not a violation of policy. I'd urge you to respect the result of this AfD: it's clearly not showing any consensus on that issue. --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 05:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::As a man of science, it is sad that so many wish to misuse Wikipedia to push their far out POV and create POV forks like this one. Shame on those that do so. Afd is not a vote, but a discussion and the discussion that this isn't a POV fork is weak and without a basis in fact.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::"POV fork" is perhaps the most misused term on Wikipedia, and I'm certain that you're misusing it here. We both know that this article came into being because [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] was too long - which makes this a content, not a POV, fork. Look, it's inevitable that 9/11 conspiracy theories, and anything forked from that page, is going to have a different POV from other articles about 9/11, and anything forked from those pages. But the existence of articles that present different POVs about the same material does not imply the existence of a POV fork - because if that were true, no mention whatsoever of alternate viewpoints about anything would be allowed on Wikipedia. You couldn't have [[Judaism's view of Jesus]] or [[Shi'a view of Abu Bakr]] or [[Kennedy assassination theories]]. Is that how you really want to interpret the term "POV fork"? --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 05:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't be ridiculous...how many articles does this seies of conspiracy theories deserve? I feel that one is enough and that one si the one we have at 9/11 conspiracy theories. Collapse of the world trade center had a redirect to the 9/11 CT article section on this article. Basboll did a fine job rewriting the Collapse article, but consensus was to not have all these links (link farm) in that article, so now they are here...that's a POV fork.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 06:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:What's ridiculous is the idea that a group of editors carrying a content dispute from one article to another pre-existing article would retroactively make the latter article a "POV fork." If those editors started adding those links to, for example, [[7 World Trade Center]], should we then delete that page as a "POV fork"? Simply, content disputes are solved through the editorial process, not AfD. Yes, we're aware that you think there should be only one article on 9/11 conspiracy theories; it also seems plain that the community does not agree with you. --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 06:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
::No, the recent deletions of 9/11 cruft articles indicates that this isn't the case at all. I'm glad to see it happening as for too long we have been dealing with this shameful effort to misuse Wikipedia for advcacy of nonsense. Simply put, the bar of notablity is simply too low.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 06:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep and Rewrite''' This article could be really good if someone took the time to rewrite it and many users actively patrolled it as with [[George W. Bush]], but[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] seems to be trying to get it deleted at any cost from what I have read (up to the third arbitrary line break). I have seen a lot of evidence for a controlled demolition and a lot of evidence against. This article could cover both equally if we would just take the time and effort.--Acebrock 06:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>
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