Module talk:Lang-zh/Archive 4: Difference between revisions

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I've been working on merging {{tl|zh-full}} into this one. The motivation is that where possible it makes sense to replace instances of {{tl|zh-full}} with {{tl|zh}}, as the recent work on this template has improved its output significantly. Where not possible, so where {{zh-full}} was used because of the features it provides over this one, then it should be possible to add the features to this. In particular the ability to list things in an arbitrary order is something that was pretty much impossible before but can be easily done in Lua.

As a first step I've been going through articles using {{{tl|zh-full}} and replacing them with {{tl|zh}} where possible. I've only been doing this as there are good editorial reasons: this template provides better output (proper language tagging, consistent italicisation), handles special cases better such as t and s being the same, handles empty fields properly, avoids redirects in its links, and is much shorter and easier to type. I've did other cleanup as I went, in particular of Chinese language.

===Cantonese first issues===

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: I had thought of that before: doing it based on region rather than a single switch, first=t. The problem is it's quite disruptive – all existing instances of first=t would have to be found and updated, changed to region=tw or region=hk based on the article, and I don't know how you'd find them. Or you leave both first=t and region=xx in the template which introduces redundancy as with Cantonese=first, and seems overkill for something that there's no obvious need for - the only instances of {{tl|zh-full}} with ordering unsupported by {{tl|zh}} were with Jyutping first.

: The editor specifying the order is another way of doing it. The way it would work is with an extra option, ordered=no. If the module detects this it doesn't use a fixed order but the order is the same as the parameters passed to the template. Essentially the same as how {{tlzhtl|zh-full}} works but done in code not templates within templates as for that. It also introduces redundancy but can be thought of as two levels: a switch for simple cases, an option to use any order for more specialised cases.

: I don't think replacing labels is a good idea. It would make the template much more complex and be little used (it wasn't used at all within {{tl|zh-full}}). If editors need that degree of control over labels, links, formatting they need not use the template, or can use it for some languages but use {{tl|lang}} with their own labels and formatting for those they want customised.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 16:22, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

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--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 19:44, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

:There is a complication with how zh-IPA works in that it accepts a second field to switch between different types of IPA such as Mandarin and Cantonese IPA or others. I notice that {{tl|Chinese}} has two fields mi and ci but no others. Are there any other IPA types that could be used? In {{tl|Nihongo}} there is a blank extra field which if added to this module could work something like <code>{{zh|c=北京|extra={{zh-IPA|zh|/pɐk˥kɪŋ˥/||ipatype=yue}}{{zh-IPA|zh|/beɪˈdʒɪŋ/||ipatype=cmn}}}}</code> however I don't see any advantage of this when you could have just done <code>{{zh|c=北京}}; {{zh-IPA|zh|/pɐk˥kɪŋ˥/||ipatype=yue}}; {{zh-IPA|zh|/beɪˈdʒɪŋ/||ipatype=cmn}}</code>. It would probably be easier just to add mi and ci fields the same as {{tl|Chinese}} has done. [[User:Rincewind42|Rincewind42]] ([[User talk:Rincewind42|talk]]) 15:29, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

:: Having looked at it a bit more the IPA situation's a bit of a mess. There's a template for general IPA, {{tl|IPA-all}}; {{tl|IPA-wuu}} for Shanghainese/Wu is a redirect to it; there's a separate template for Cantonese/Yue, {{tl|IPA-yue}}; there is none for Mandarin that I can see. There is though {{tl|IPAc-cmn}} which converts pinyin to IPA ('cmn' is the IANA code for Chinese Mandarin; we use 'zh' for legacy reasons).

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And there are good reasons for doing so. There's not quite the same need as there is for {{tl|zh-full}}, but apart from the reasons {{tl|zh}} was converted to Lua looking at how its used in some cases it's used where {{tl|zh}} would do, e.g. in [[Chery A15]], while most uses are very similar. As with {{tl|zh-full}} it makes no sense to have two templates being used for mostly the same thing if there's no technical reason to keep them separate.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 15:40, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

:Although there is no technical reason, there is a cultural reason why we have {{tl|zh}} and {{tl|nihongo}} as separate templates. Korean doesn't seem to have it's own template. {{tl|CJKV}} joins these together but it doesn't distinguish between Kanji and Kana or Hangul and Hanja. Also it doesn't include Japanese/Korea romanisations. If you combined identical Hanja/Hanzi characters, how would you label it? Also which language comes first? There needs to be a better way to order these. The the parameter bloat might become significant. Look at {{tl|Chinese}} for example. All those options by how often are they used? In the end, though CJKV could be merged with zh, there will need to be two or three separate instances of near identical code. Partly to keep the parameters simple so that people can understand the template, and partly so the various interested groups don't conflict. [[User:Rincewind42|Rincewind42]] ([[User talk:Rincewind42|talk]]) 05:20, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

::Just for the record, I've come across ''numerous'' cases in the past where people have been upset or offended ''simply because of the template name''. Like the former Yugoslavia and the rest of Eastern Europe, nationalism is kind of a thing in East Asia, and I've seen people getting upset over templates such as {{tl|Japanese particle}} and {{tl|Chinese}}, simply because the template has the word "Chinese" or "Japanese" in it, instead of "Chinese", "Korean", "Japanese", or whatever seems to be the topic of the article. Upset editors often blank or delete templates, or revert template additions, simply because they don't like the name of a template, and that's it; I remember having to make the {{tl|Language particle}} redirect because one Korean editor got ''oh so offended'' by the word "Japanese". It's not as simple as things should be.<p>If we ever decide to use {{tl|zh}} or anything else to replace CJKV templates after merging parameters, I think it would probably be a good idea to create template redirects as well; it's difficult to satisfy the needs of every single editor otherwise. Words such as "Chinese" and "Japanese" are a sensitive political issue in some areas, and edit wars often start over trivial matters such as these. I think the mindset is that if you put the {{tl|Chinese}} template on a Korean topic article, it's claiming that it "belongs to China" or something (though logically speaking, it really shouldn't, it's just a template used to contain multilingual names). --[[User:benlisquare|<span style="font-family:Monospace;padding:1px;color:orange">'''benlisquare'''</span>]]_{[[User talk:benlisquare|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benlisquare|C]]•[[Special:EmailUser/User:Benlisquare|E]]} 05:45, 26 May 2014 (UTC)</p>

:::As well as template redirects using Lua offers another possibility: two templates with the same Lua implementation. That's how most of the citation templates work; they call [[:Module:Citation/CS1]]. You can then supply extra parameters that tell it to do slightly different things (or very different things) depending on which template it invoking it, though in this case they work so similarly already that it should be possible to treat them the same way.

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{{edit template-protected|ans=y}}

Please update the module from its sandbox with the above change, as detailed above.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 20:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

:{{done}} &ndash;&nbsp;'''''<small>[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="color:darkblue; font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]</small>'''''&nbsp;^{<font size="1" color="blue">[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size=:x-small; color: blue;">'''''C<small>LIMAX</small>!''''']]</fontspan>]]} 13:55, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

== "See also" addition request ==

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*{{tlx|Infobox Chinese}} - infobox template supports traditional and simplified Chinese as well as other common romanizations.

Thanks. — [[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="border:1px solid #000073;background:#4D4DA6;padding:2px;color:#F9FFFF;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em"><fontspan facestyle="font-family: Georgia;">&nbsp;'''AjaxSmack'''&nbsp;</fontspan></span>]] 02:57, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

: Done, with some small edits to it and the other entries. You could have added it yourself as it’s part of [[Template:Zh/doc|the documentation page]] which isn't protected.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 09:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

::Thanks. I didn't notice that the doc page wasn't locked. <small> — [[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="border:1px solid #000073;background:#4D4DA6;padding:2px;color:#F9FFFF;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em"><fontspan facestyle="font-family: Georgia;">&nbsp;'''AjaxSmack'''&nbsp;</fontspan></span>]] 22:57, 3 March 2015 (UTC)</small>

== Language tagging for pinyin yet again ==

I know this has come up before ([[Module talk{{TALKSPACE}}:Zh{{ROOTPAGENAME}}/Archive 3#Font?|here]], for example) but I want to readdress the issue of the language tagging and that the chosen fonts render very poorly when using Firefox. Here's an example from the [[Xinpi]] article:

[[File:Xinpi page image.jpg|none]]

As you can see, the tones are barely legible even after increasing the font size and ''cf'' the Pe̍h-ōe-jī text which renders just fine.

From previous discussions, I understand that this is a Firefox bug but the problem has been festering for quite a while. Any chance anything can be done on the Wikipedia end? Firefox is a major browser and asking users to edit style sheets or change browsers is a bit excessive. — [[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="border:1px solid #000073;background:#4D4DA6;padding:2px;color:#F9FFFF;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em"><fontspan facestyle="font-family: Georgia;">&nbsp;'''AjaxSmack'''&nbsp;</fontspan></span>]] 23:27, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

: Had a look myself with Firefox and it looks OK. It's not just a problem with the browser but with the browser and a certain intersection of user settings. I think you need to specify fonts other than the defaults for Chinese, or that's what I recall when it last came up. See [[{{TALKSPACE}}:{{ROOTPAGENAME}}/Archive 3#Latn problem|Module talk:Zh/Archive 3#Latn problem]]. It's disappointing it's still not fixed. I submitted a patch for it to Firefox, and I know it's been looked at by other people since but it seems not a priority for Firefox's devs.

: I'd be very reluctant to remove this from the template. Firefox users are only a minority of users ([[Usage share of web browsers#ummarySummary table|17% of Wikimedia]]), and I assume only a minority of them are experiencing problems. And it would not just be this template, as the same HTML/CSS is output by other templates, such as {{tl|lang}}. The logical fix would be in the site CSS to catch all these instances, but then do we also do it for all the other languages that are rendered incorrectly by Firefox's horribly broken code? Better I think to recommend to users they fix it themselves, by editing their CSS, changing settings, switching browsers or even patching Firefox. Some users might even find it the incorrect version acceptable, depending which fonts it uses (yours seems to be using a bitmap font which is particularly illegible but is not a feature of most modern OSes).--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 00:31, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

== Pe̍h-ōe-jī ==

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== Different traditional and simplified glyphs despite unified Unicode characters ==

I tried to use this template in the article [[Tsai Ing-wen]] to give the different traditional and simplified forms of this person’s Chinese name, as was done in [[:de:Tsai Ing-wen|the corresponding article on de.WP]]. However the result of writing <ttcode><nowiki>{{zh|t=蔡英文|s=蔡英文|p=Cài Yīngwén}}</nowiki></ttcode> is “{{zh|t=蔡英文|s=蔡英文|p=Cài Yīngwén}}” and the HTML includes <ttcode><nowiki><span xml:lang="zh" lang="zh">蔡英文</span></nowiki></ttcode> where the characters are given only once and lack any markup for script (<ttcode><nowiki>zh-Hant</nowiki></ttcode> vs. <ttcode><nowiki>zh-Hans</nowiki></ttcode> instead of just <ttcode><nowiki>zh</nowiki></ttcode>). Would it be possible to alter this template so that it is possible to give different traditional and simplified glyphs even when the Unicode characters for the two are unified? (In case you are not familiar with this aspect of [[Unicode]] read the article [[Han unification]]). [[User:LiliCharlie|LiliCharlie]] ([[User talk:LiliCharlie|talk]]) 12:54, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

: The module recognises when the traditional and simplified characters are identical, and if they are it combines them as has happened here. This is normal practice in WP articles; it is only useful to give both when they are different, and the template helps with this by eliminating such redundancy. It only does if they are identical (the bit of the script that does it is args["s"] == args["t"] on line 131). The German version of the template has much simpler (non-module) code which does not do this.

: What you may be seeing is some difference due to the different fonts your system is using for simplified and traditional. That is I think uncommon though. I do not see it here or on de.wp, and I suspect the same will be true for the vast majority of en.wp users. It will only users with particular settings for e.g. traditional and simplified Characters that will notice any difference, and then the difference will only be in the rendering not the underlying characters. You can change your settings, or use a style sheet to control the rendering of particular page elements here. See [[User:JohnBlackburne/common.css]] for some examples.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 14:01, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

::Well, the difference I see is certainly not just due to different fonts; I actually use the [[Source Han Sans]] font family for ''all'' CJK locales, so I see exactly the same glyphs when there should be no difference, and different glyphs when there should be one. Nowadays all major browsers seem to define different locales for at least simplified and traditional Chinese characters (and usually also distinguish between traditional TW and HK, as occasionally even these very similar locales use different glyphs; see [http://appsrv.cse.cuhk.edu.hk/~irg/irg/irg44/IRGN2074C.pdf here]). A lot of East Asian readers are extremely fussy about glyphic differences, and at times (though rarely) they even fail to recognize a Han character rendered in a shape that is uncommon to them. In my case, the traditional and simplified glyphs for the character {{lang|zh-Hant|蔡}}/{{lang|zh-Hans|蔡}} differ in each and all of its four components {{lang|zh|艹⺼又示}}, esp. {{lang|zh|艹⺼示}}. Why not give the readers the information that they ''are'' different? — Besides, you can’t really rely on Unicode’s (or rather, the [[Ideographic Rapporteur Group|IRG]]’s) unificaton scheme, which often seems quite random. For example {{lang|zh-Hans|禅}} and {{lang|ja|禅}} are unified (=one Unicode character) while {{lang|zh-Hans|单}} and {{lang|jpja|単}}, which show exactly the same glyphic difference, are not. Unicode’s Han unification is known to be a disputed matter, and even according to the Unicode Standard locale markup is indispensable in cases like these. — P.S.: I already use stylesheets to see whatever ''I'' want to see. What I would like to achieve though is that ''any user'' gets what they deserve: 100% reliable information. [[User:LiliCharlie|LiliCharlie]] ([[User talk:LiliCharlie|talk]]) 15:29, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

::: The problem is that you are not giving readers that information, that they are different. If it displays both simplified and traditional and they look the same, as they are the same characters, then probably most users will not notice the duplication (most do not read Chinese) but those who do will be confused over why the same characters appear twice although they are the same, unlike on other pages. I’ve looked at it with three browsers on two different OSes and the simplified and traditional characters look the same. [[wikt:蔡]] says simplified and traditional are the same. That your browser displays them differently must be down to your browser and OS settings. I suspect very few readers of the English WP have similar settings, though it would be very hard to find out. It is not something that can really be addressed in the template/module as it would break how it appears on many other pages, though how many I do not know.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 16:46, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

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* <nowiki> {{Zh/sandbox |t=蔡英文|s=蔡英文|p=Cài Yīngwén|nomerge="y"}}</nowiki> gives:

**{{Zh/sandbox |t=蔡英文|s=蔡英文|p=Cài Yīngwén|nomerge="y"}}

Clearer than using obscure markup but with the same effect. In particular it does not change any existing uses. Have a look at the module sandbox [[Special:Permalink/700347236|Module:Zh/sandbox]] for the particular changes. If this seems OK to other editors we can go ahead and add it to the main template.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 23:52, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

:What is the purpose of this template? I think it is to convey the Chinese name of the person, book, etc that is the subject of article, for readers who understand characters. It's not to give lessons in typography to people who don't understand hanzi – we have specialist articles for that. In a proper setup, zh-Hant should yield traditional forms, zh-Hans simplified ones and zh the reader's preference between these. (Of course, both fonts will have to do something artificial if they cover all the non-unified variants.) So if the reader sees unified characters in their preferred form, they will know which characters are meant, and the template's job is done. In such cases (and Han unification is rather conservative) the other variant is unnecessary, and this template already produces distracting clutter. However, this doesn't apply to {{tlx|infobox Chinese}}, which has more room. [[User talk:Kanguole|Kanguole]] 01:18, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

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:: Wouldn't it be more useful to add this to {{tlx|infobox Chinese}}? I think it would be better to pick a small number of romanizations for the inline template. [[User talk:Kanguole|Kanguole]] 15:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

:::I would add it there also, if it’s not already added. I see no problem adding it here too: there is already a lot of redundancy for most use cases, with e.g. Romanisations other than Hanyu Pinyin barely used. {{U|Sirlanz}} makes the case for it better than I could, except I would add it’s the Romanisation I’m most familiar myself from my time in Hong Kong.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 15:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

::::Code/cases looked good. Synced to sandbox. — [[User:Andy M. Wang|'''''Andy  W.''''']]  <span style="font-size:88%">('''[[User talk:Andy M. Wang|<span style="color:#164">talk</span>]] ·''' [[Special:Contribs/Andy M. Wang|ctb]])</span> 17:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

== Template-protected edit request on 24 August 2016 ==

{{edit template-protected|Template:Zh|answered=yes}}

Could someone please add {{tlsx|tfm|lang-zh}} to the top of this template as it has been nominated for merging.

[[User:Pppery|<span style="position:relative;top:10px">P</span>p<span style="position:relative;bottom:10px">p</span>e<big style="position:relative;top:10px">r</big>y]] <big style="position:relative;top:5px">([[User talk:Pppery|talk]])</big> 12:55, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

:[[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ETp --> —&thinsp;[[User:JJMC89|JJMC89]]&thinsp;<small>([[User talk:JJMC89|T]]'''·'''[[Special:Contributions/JJMC89|C]])</small> 15:50, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

== Template edit request ==

{{edit template-protected|Template:Zh|answered=yes}}

Please wrap the tfd notice in no-include. This template is included in thousands of articles, often appearing in the first sentence of articles, so the notice is now polluting those articles in a highly visible way. E.g. [[Hong Kong]] now beings

* Hong Kong (‹The template Zh is being considered for merging.› Chinese:...

--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 05:23, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

:[[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ETp --> —&thinsp;[[User:JJMC89|JJMC89]]&thinsp;<small>([[User talk:JJMC89|T]]'''·'''[[Special:Contributions/JJMC89|C]])</small> 05:49, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

:: Come on, another incorrect noincluding request. Tfd/Tfm notices are supposed to show up in artcicles, and noincluding is only mentioned in the instructions as a technical hack for substituted templates. [[User:Pppery|<span style="position:relative;top:10px">P</span>p<span style="position:relative;bottom:10px">p</span>e<big style="position:relative;top:10px">r</big>y]] <big style="position:relative;top:5px">([[User talk:Pppery|talk]])</big> 14:50, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

::: The point of the notice is to notify editors of the discussion and that clearly worked, it is one of the the most active TfD discussions I have ever been involved in. Given that, and the disruption it was causing to thousands of articles, I think noincluding it was the obvious thing to do.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 15:11, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

:::: {{ping|JohnBlackburne}} I agree that the tfd was quite active, however that does not justify noincluding. It is clearly stated in the [[WP:TFD#Listing a template|listing instructions]] that noinclude tags should only be added for templates designed to be substituted (which this one isn't) [[User:Pppery|<span style="position:relative;top:10px">P</span>p<span style="position:relative;bottom:10px">p</span>e<big style="position:relative;top:10px">r</big>y]] <big style="position:relative;top:5px">([[User talk:Pppery|talk]])</big> 16:00, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

See also [[Template:Template for discussion#Which type should be used?]]:

::"In rare cases, where the insertion of any template is deemed too detrimental to a large number of articles, or if it breaks markup, it might be advisable to disable the notifications completely."

I would say this is one of those cases. The many thousands of articles this is used in is a large number, and it was very detrimental to many them; see the Hong Kong example above.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 16:09, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

: {{ping|JohnBlackburne}} I wasn't originally aware of that section of the template doc, but I disagree that the transclusion of the notice isn't {{tq|too detrimental to a large number of articles}}. Many articles transclude the template, yes, but in the article you specified, [[Hong Kong]] only transcludes the template '''four times''', which is not enough to justify hiding a notice over. If you think that the notice takes up too much space, just make it smaller by using {{para|type|tiny}} rather than hiding it. [[User:Pppery|<span style="position:relative;top:10px">P</span>p<span style="position:relative;bottom:10px">p</span>e<big style="position:relative;top:10px">r</big>y]] <big style="position:relative;top:5px">([[User talk:Pppery|talk]])</big> 16:37, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

== Italic romanisation ==

Why is the romanisation suddenly in italics? It looks really ugly. '''[[User:Citobun|Citobun]]''' ([[User_talk:Citobun|talk]]) 15:36, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Module:Zh&diff=609840778&oldid=608636921 Suddenly?] <small>(There's no accounting for taste, but I think it looks fine. And it also conforms to English [[Italic_type#Usage|typographic tradition for foreign words]].)</small> <small>[[Wikipedia:WikiLove|Love]]</small>&nbsp;—[[:commons:User:LiliCharlie|LiliCharlie]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:LiliCharlie|talk]])</small> 16:13, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

:See the guideline [[MOS:FOREIGNITALIC]] for the reason. I think it looks better like that, certainly not ugly. You might try a different browser as some (e.g. Firefox) have problems displaying Non-English text.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 21:51, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

:: Take [[Raymond Chan]] as an example. On my browser the pinyin looks OK. But the Jyutping is stretched and weird and ugly. Is it the same for others? Maybe it was always italics and I didn't notice, but I don't think the Jyutping looked this weird until recently. '''[[User:Citobun|Citobun]]''' ([[User_talk:Citobun|talk]]) 13:41, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

::: Not on my browser, but is it perhaps an issue with the <code>lang</code> tags? The pinyin is tagged as "zh-Latn-pinyin", but the Jyutping is tagged as "yue-jyutping" – perhaps it's being rendered with a character font, and a tag of "yue-Latn-jyutping" might avoid that. [[User talk:Kanguole|Kanguole]] 14:27, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

::: Though according to the [http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry registry], the prefix for <code>jyutping</code> is just <code>yue</code>. [[User talk:Kanguole|Kanguole]] 14:33, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

::::Yes, according to the registry <code>yue-jyutping</code> is the correct way to tag it. It does seem odd but I think that registry contains a lot of legacy standards, created at different times, which are not consistent between e.g. pinyin and jyutping. As it’s the standard, as has been part of it since 2010, all browsers should support it.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 09:40, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

== Bbánlám pìngyīm ==

{{ping|Citobun|Kanguole|JohnBlackburne}} {{u|Sunshine567}} has asked me to add [[Bbánlám pìngyīm]] to the module. Is there consensus for doing this? [[User:Jc86035|Jc86035]] ([[User talk:Jc86035|talk]]) <small><span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left">Use &#123;&#123;[[Template:Reply to|re]]&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125;<br />to reply to me</span></small> 11:31, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

: I’ve added it to the sandbox in a similar way to other pinyin, e.g.

:: {{Zh/sandbox|t=閩拼方案|bp= Bbínpīn Hōngàn}}

: I don’t know if it’s a commonly used Romanisation, or at all used, but we don’t actually have a criteria for inclusion, and some of the ones in there are already pretty obscure. If no-one has any objections I’d say put it in.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 12:02, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

::If the first principle for inclusion be that the system of Romanisation has a degree of prevalence of use, it may be that [[Bbánlám pìngyīm]] fails the test. Only one source is cited for support of its WP entry and we already have the well-established [[Pe̍h-ōe-jī]] system for Amoy/Xiamen Hokkien in the template. So I would suggest caution about adding what may be an obscure method. [[user:sirlanz|sirlanz]] 12:09, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

::As to the obscurity point, none of those systems in the template now can be described as "pretty obscure" or certainly not in the same league of the obscurity of the proposed new inclusion. Without more input, I would say it's a bad move to add it. [[user:sirlanz|sirlanz]] 13:25, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

:::It's included in {{tl|Infobox Chinese/Chinese}}, but there are many other romanizations included there but not here, so if this is added then so should the rest of them, I guess. [[User:Jc86035|Jc86035]] ([[User talk:Jc86035|talk]]) <small><span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left">Use &#123;&#123;[[Template:Reply to|re]]&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125;<br />to reply to me</span></small> 13:48, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

::::Infobox facilitates appearance of a Romanisation in a very limited way; the template here opens up use throughout article text, so there are good reasons to be very restrictive. Indeed, the real issue here is whether there ought to be a WP:en policy about Romanisation of Chinese or just open slather. Each dialect should be limited to one or, at most, two Romanisation schemes and the scheme(s) ought to be chosen based upon (1) prevalence of use by knowledgeable English readers and (2) ease of comprehension by uninformed readers. We should attempt not to admit Romanisation scattershot across the pages; adding this particular minnow of Romanisation will not assist here. [[user:sirlanz|sirlanz]] 14:31, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

: {{u|Sunshine567}}, can you say where you think this will be used, as in in what articles other than [[Bbánlám pìngyīm]]? --<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small>^{[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]}<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 13:55, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

== Hakka ==

Is there no [[Guangdong_Romanization#Hakka|Hakka]] for this template? [[User:Szqecs|Szqecs]] ([[User talk:Szqecs|talk]]) 15:29, 14 February 2018 (UTC)