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==The user [[Hkelkar]] is not following Wikiepedia Directives for discussions and NPOV==
Regarding [[Indian Buddhist Movement]] article I have asked the user to come for specific points that are not acceptable. But he is showing his anti-Buddhist mindset ans it not open for any discussions. Wiki Administrators except [[Brahmin]] and [[Shudra]] [[Varnas]] please take note of this. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 16:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:I will also report this ethnic characterization as a personal attack.These edits are severely demented.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 16:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::Please come forward for what kind of attacks are you talking? I have clearly mentioned that the article is about present [[Buddhist]] movement in India and current happenings. This year October 2006 millions of people are converting to Buddhism at [[Nagpur]] in India. Come and see for the proofs. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 16:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::You have made several ethnic characterizations in my talk page and on this talk page. Until you stop making ethnic and racial attacks on people I refuse to discuss with you. Please stop, for this is detrimental to the purpose of wikipedia. Just because somebody is Jewish, brahmin, Buddhist or Shudra does not mean that he should/should not edit certain articles or participate in discussion. What you have said so far is BLATANTLY racist and hatemongering and action will be taken to that effect.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 16:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:: Please come to the specific point. If you say all I write is wrong?? This is too much !! For your kind information we oppose all kind of social discrimination like racism, Hindu-casteism, Hindu-untouchability. As a Buddhist from my heart I believe in Equality, Liberty and Fraternity the basic principles of Buddhism. What racism are you talking? I have not called Black or any such remarks. We have Black, White Buddhists in Europe I am working with such Buddhis people [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 16:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
==NPOV==
:[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] please come forward to discuss your points. Please be specific to the points. Don't keep NPOV without mentioning your points in discussion. Don't give warnings to each and everybody because you are not the owner of wikipedia. So lets have a discussion on all points. I also wants [[Buddhist]] world to participate in thid discussions so proper and true picture of present Indian Buddhist Movement will come to know. In all articles please have a healthy attitude for discussions. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 10:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::I will discuss with you when you stop making racist attacks against people.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 16:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
==Claims that I am anti-Buddhist and source for Navayāna==
The only textual edits I've made to this page are, redirects from Navayana and Navayāna, inclusions of a reference section, and the definition of navayāna.
Contrary to what Dhammafriend says, I am an American of Indian descent and a Theravāda Buddhist of former Brahmin caste.
:: [[Buddhist]] do not have caste neither they believe any former caste like [[Brahmin]],[[Bhangi ]],[[Scheduled Caste]], OBC caste etc. So don't claim false things. I have Buddhist friends in America who can certainly verify your identity. So if want to discuss you can also meet our Buddhist friends in America so don't try to fool wikipedia community. Who gave you ordination as Buddhist? Do you know the process to become a [[Buddhist]]? [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 10:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I edited Navayāna into the article because in Buddhism in India : Challenging Brahmanism and Caste by Gail Omvedt (This book is incredibly anti-Caste and is pro-Buddhist) I have read Neo-Buddhism being referred to as Navayana, which is is obviously a non-IAST transliteration of navayāna.
:: Legal system in India have Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Christens as Religion. So you can not say is 'referred' ? Its strange. When our cencus is done people are referred as their religion Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim etc. So Navayana is baseless term in every legal sense [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 10:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
"Ambedkar's Buddhism seemingly differs from that of those who accepted by faith, who 'go for refuge' and accept the canon. This This much is clear from its basis: it does not accept in totality the scriptures of the Theravada, the the Mahayana, or the Vajrayana. The question that is then clearly put forth: is a fourth yana, a Navayana, a kind of modernistic Enlightenment version of the Dhamma really possible within the framework of Buddhism?" (8)
The book blatantly says that Ambedkar DESIGNED what has become known as navayāna. He did not found the Navayana publishing house. I edited in that there is a Navayana publishing house into the article so people would not confuse, navayāna, yāna, and Navayana, the publishing house.
::It is true that there is a publishing house known as Navyana so what? It is not a Buddhist publishing house. It is a book publisher not a religion publisher. So you can't put their name in the [[Indian Buddhist Movement]] article because its a religious movement. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 10:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Dhammafriend is wrong in his claims that Buddhism died in India, Buddhism was slayed, not killed. Buddhism still exists in Ladakh, Darjeeling, (and Chittagong in Bangladesh). Dr. Ambedkar recreated a Buddhist population that disappeared from most of India. His religious beliefs differ in certain ways from the ancient school of Theravāda and younger schools of Vajrayāna, Tantrayāna, and Mahāyāna, so hence what he revived was neo-Buddhism, somewhat like how organizations like Hellenion have revived the Greek religion as a form of neo-paganism. Neo-Buddhism translate into Pāli would be navayāna, new vehicle.
:: Dr. Ambedkar revived [[Buddhism]] in India so you can not brand is Old OR Neo! Its Buddhism. People from Europe /USA are converting to their own found Buddhist practices. All are Buddhist so newly converted people are not branded as neo ! Please also visit www.e-b-u.org. In Indian Context Buddhist from Ladakh, Assam, Maharshtra, Karnataka etc. are a fighting unitedly for Buddhist Revival. Do you know All Indian Buddhist Monk Association ? Especially for [[Mahabodhi]] Temple Liberation Movement world Buddhist are united. Buddhist monk from Japan Bhante Surai Sasai is doing best in Central Region of India [[Nagpur]] to mobiliese masses [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 10:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
It is also mentioned in Reconstructing the World: B. R. Ambedkar and Buddhism in India by by Surendra Jondhale & Johannes Beltz.
If you search through its index on Amazon you can specifically see that the word Navayāna is repeated multiple times
::The Article is about Buddhist Movement in India current status and present developments. So it is not about Dr. [[Ambedkar]] for that we have separate article so you can post your views there. Not in this article. About Dr. Gail Omvedt you might have read her books only but our friends have arranged her Lecture in [[IIT]] Bombay www.iitb.ac.in and all know her personnaly. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 10:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
[[User:Thegreyanomlay|Thegreyanomaly]] Thursday, 2006-09-21 T 00:25 UTC
==NPOV Buddhist Movement Crossing Hindu Caste Barriers==
The article is about present [[Buddhist]] religious activities in India. There is no violation of POV. Many people who are branded as Hindus from different castes are converting to Buddhism on their own to escape from Hindu [[Caste System]] and Hindu Untouchability. Buddhists accepts everybody irrespective of his Hindu Castes. Anybody wants to check he can visit India especially on October 2006 in Nagpur where thousands of people convert each year. Many news are available to check its truth. Brithish Buddhist, Japanese Buddhists and ShriLankan Buddhists are helping Indian Buddhist to carry out mass conversions. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 18:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
==Page title==
Recently, [[User:Dhammafriend]] moved this page from [[Neo-Buddhism]] to [[Indian Buddhist Movement]] with the explanation, "Movement started by Dr. Ambedkar is known as Modern Buddhist Movement. Dr. Ambedkar rejected many theories of even traditional Buddhists especially the reason of renunciations i.e. myth propagated by Buddhists of 4 sites seen by Prince.". I will agree that, when I wrote the initial version of this page, I wasn't sure if [[Neo-Buddhism]] was really the best title, but it has the advantage of being used occasionally outside of Wikipedia. Where does the expression "Indian Buddhist Movement" come from? It's all capitalised, as if it were a proper name; "Indian Buddhist movement" sounds like it could apply to any form of Buddhism in India.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 19:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
:I'm also interested to see a source for the name ''Navayana'', which is now listed as the Pali name for this movement.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 19:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
::There is no source for the name. It is used a default name used by some so as to distinguish from the ancient schools of buddhism.(mahayana, hinayana). the word has no scriptural support and is certainly not a Pali word. Hence i am deleting the part "or Navayāna Buddhism ([[Pāli language|Pāli]] नवयान ''navayāna'', literally "new vehicle")" Indian Buddhist practice is general. It does not confirm to any particular school of thought. Though it can be argued that it bears more resemblance to the theravada school but this is my POV. there is not need to mention it. Dr B R Ambedkars 'Buddha and His Dhamma' is considered final authority on all doctrinal matters by Indian Buddhists --[[User:Yeditor|Yeditor]] 11:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
:::The name ''Navayana'' can not be applicable to present Indian Buddhist Movement because it is a non secterian movement. If you see the All Indian Buddhist Monk Organization it represents all Buddhists in India. Especially from Aasam, Maharashtra and Karnataka. Some scholar's like Gail Omvedtt Or Christopher Queen has used the term 'Navyan i.e. new Vehical' just as a new term than Mahayan and Hinyan. Now all Buddhists are united for liberation of Mahabodhi Vihar, Bodhagaya from Brahmin and Shudras (so-called Hindu) control. All Hindus irrespective of their caste and Varna are anti-Buddhist. So they try to absorb Buddhism in their caste ridden Hindu fold. But '22 vows' given by Bodhisattva Dr. Ambedkar is the heart of present Buddhist movement. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 13:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
== please add official view==
i think that in this article, there shall be a place for the official view of india. i think it to be a indispensible point, in case a NPOV is to be maintained. u can put all views there, but if it lacks the official view, then it surely lacks something.
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 11:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
::Ms. Nidhi in your Hindu Religion what is the status of women? Please see [[Women in India]] and [[Women In Hinduism]]. For hundreds of year education for women was banned, they are treated a Ati-[[Shudra]] i.e. lower caste than [[Shudra]] which is equivalent to Untouchables. Dr. Babasaheb [[Ambedkar]] through constitutional methods gave you protection. So better you worry about Caste Based Hinduism. The Indian Buddhist from Assam to Maharashtra and from Punjab to Tamil Nadu do understand the anti-Buddhist attitude of Hindus. Now-a-day thousands of people are converting to Buddhism. Visit Nagput this October 2nd 2006. You will find millions of people converting to Buddhism. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 13:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
:::dont assume the gender of other person just by your choice. I am male FYI. I will shortly answer your other concerns. [[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]][[User_talk:Nidhishsinghal|(♂)]] 01:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:Sure, let's say something, but let's not give it undue weight. How much nuance is there in the official position on Buddhism? If I recall correctly, the Indian Constitution defines Hinduism as including Buddhism and Jainism. However, it also seems that Buddhists are measured separately from Hindus in the census.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 00:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
no. u can check 2001 census. buddhists were include in hindus in 2001 census, along with Jains.
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 13:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
::All non-Brahmin Hindus are [[Shudra]] because this is [[Kali Yuga]] as per Hindu religion. The [[Shudra]] Hindus are hypocrite. Same case here with Nidhi and other anti-Buddhist HINDUS i.e. [[Shudra]] people. Please read the cencus report very well. There are religious cencus. 1. Hindus, 2. Muslims, 3. Christens, 4. Sikhs, 5. Buddhists and 6. Jains. National minority commission has BUDDHIST representative aslo. Bhante Surai Sasai a Japanese Born Indian Buddhist is the leader of Indian Buddhist movemernt. Especially he is fighting for Total Buddhist Control on Mahabodhi Vihar. This sacred site of Buddhists in under control of Shudra Hindus like Mr. Yadav Or Shudra Hindu Mr. Modi. Please check it before commenting. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 13:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
:Well, the article currently says, "According to the 2001 census, there are currently 7.95 million Buddhists in India i.e.0.8 % of total population of India, at least 5.83 million of whom are Buddhists in Maharashtra."—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 03:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
yes they are counted differently as a sect. so are jains and many other sectarians.
but the total hindu population of 900 millions, as told by CIA world facts, include all these sects.
[[Hinduism]] is not a well defined religioin. it encourages different schools of thoughts and one of them was infact athiestic.
and as a matter of fact buddists who have, so called, converted from hinduism, get all the benefits of scheduled castes, reserved exclusively for lower caste hindus. while those converting to christianity or Islam dont get those benefits, thus emphasising the fact of different religious identities.
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 08:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
::Hindus who are converted to Buddhism could not get any benifits till 1990. But Prime Minister V.P. Singh and [Mandal Commission] gave reservation for Buddhists also for political gains and to get vots of Buddhists. There is nothing wrong. If Hindus are taking reservation then what is wrong if Buddhists take it? First stop the reservation of Hindus then we will stop reservation of Buddhists. The Indian Buddhists don't need it. You can go in court against it. India is a democricy and Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar has given equal right to everybody while framing the Constitution. Even Hindu Ati-Shudra women like Nidhi has equal rights because Buddhism preaches Eqality.[[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 13:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
:::'''Get your facts right before you distort them.''' Dalit Buddha's have always got the benefits of reservation. This is the Only reason that there have been more so-called converts to Buddhism rather than Christianity or Islam. This part was done by Ambedkar himself.[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]][[User_talk:Nidhishsinghal|(♂)]] 01:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:Low-caste people who convert to Buddhism receive the benefits reserved for low-caste people. That seems normal. If a black man in the U.S. converts to Islam, he is still eligible for [[affirmative action]] (to the extent that it is in effect in the first place). What seems ''unusual'' to me is that a low-caste Indian who converts to Christianity or Islam loses benefits. I have no idea why these benefits should have anything to do with religion.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 22:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
see this is just to emphasise that there have been atrocities in the past to lower caste hindus. in case of america, they were based on racial discrimination and not on religious. so they must apply to black man, as he is not losing his race, just changing his religion. in case of india, they were based on the caste system of religion. moreover, christianity and islam do not allow caste differences among its pupils. so is buddhism. but in india, since buddhism, (including neo-budhhism) is officially included in Hinduism, (also see [[Hinduism]]), so the caste based benefits applies to them. I would love to have ur argument on this topic. but since wikipedia is based on NPOV and basically on facts, i would like u to add the official view on this article, and then we can continue our arguments.
waitin for ur action
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 09:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
i shall wait for few more days. either u add about the official view, or i will be adding. if u have any arguments please put them forward. else i shall take it as a green signal from u.
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 07:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
:So far, I'm aware of evidence that the Indian constitution, at least in some places, defines Hinduism as including Buddhism. I have yet to see any evidence indicating that this the official position in any other sense, and so I object to including that in the article. As for the constitution, we might as well mention it, but it doesn't seem like a very important fact, especially since Neo-Buddhism didn't even exist when the constitution was written.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 16:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
as for the fact, neo- buddhism was envisioned by ambedkar in 1935 only when he denounced hinduism.
as for the matter of officialism, everybody knows that reservations to scheduled castes extend to budhhists and it is also well known that they use it.
if there is any record, that u find, wherein neo-buddhist refuse to utilize the benefits reserved to lower caste hinduls only, saying that neo-buddhism is a different religion and it does not allows division on the basis of castes, it is not important.
but since neither u wont find such records nor do they exist, it is important to mention this fact.
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 17:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
i would also request u to read [[hinduism]] article once. so that u first understand hinduism. it is not a monomorphic monotheistic religion. it is a evolving process. u can claim that u are an athiest and still an Hindu. it does not denounce worship or followin of great men (like Islam calls worship of sufi saints to be apostasy and so the punishment for them in Islam is just death).
if i extend ur view that neo-buddhism is a different religion, than what will u say for [[Arya Samaj]].[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 17:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
:I agree that reservation is applied to Buddhists and is used by Buddhists. What I want is a source for your interpretation that this shows that Buddhists are officially Hindu.
:I read the article on [[Hinduism]] per your suggestion. I am aware that the categorisation which makes "Hinduism" one thing and Buddhism something else is arbitrary. However, that doesn't change the fact that this is the way these words are normally used, so to "Buddhism is part of Hinduism" is wrong unless it's qualified. This is especially relevant to this article, because Ambedkar and his followers and successors were so explicit that their goal in embracing Buddhism was to reject Hinduism.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 20:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
i m not asking to write that buddhism is a part of hinduism. even i can say that i worship shiva and i m not a hindu. its a different matter altogether.
what i want in this article is that reservations for Scheduled castes apply to Buddhists who have converted from lower class hindus. and they do not apply when they convert to an abrahmic religion. so just mention this in the article that officially u dont loose hinduism tag from u even if u convert to buddhism. u are basically denouncing some of the practices of hinduism.(say idol worship, or even vishnu and shiva worship). as u must have read that u can be a athiest and still be a hindu. u have the option of not using reservations for u when they apply to u. if this is the case with neo buddhists, it should not be mentioned that they are officially hindu. since it applies and it is used(reservations), it must be mentioned here.
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 09:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
::: If 'Nidhishsinghal' are so much worried about reservation then change your Hindu caste become a Hindu Chamar OR Hindu-Bhangi and take the benifits of reservation. The Buddhists are not asking to convert you. Instead of changing religion change you caste be a Hindu and take tell the world that you become a Hindu Bhangi. Neither the Christen world nor the Buddhists world cares about your chnage of caste. Buddhists don't need any reservation. Only Hindus fight for it because they are divided into caste and subcastes. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 14:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
:We can certainly mention that low-caste people who convert to Buddhism retain their reservations, while they would lose them if they converted to Christianity of Islam. I still don't think this makes them officially Hindu, though.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 16:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
first mention this (ur first part) in the article. and for the second part, i m not saying that they officially become hindu. what i m sayin is that legally they can claim that they are Hindu. i m not saying that they have to call themselves hindu. of course u can have ur own identity, but if some of them want to say that they are buddhist and hindu too, then legally and officially they are right. while this priviledge does not extend to other monomorphic monotheistic religions. u cant claim that u are a muslim and a hindu at the same time, nor u can claim that u r christian and a muslim at the same time. u can only be one of them. got my point
also how can u say that they arent officially hindu, when the reservations apply to them, which are exclusively reserved for lower caste hindus. they ofcourse have the option of not using them, in which case they arent hindus, (officially). but as everyone knows that, almost all of them use the reservations.
moreover, government of india census, (can check 2001 census details), includes them in Hindus, as a subsect. there are many subsects wherein some separatists claim themselves to be different from hindus.(u would like to check [[Jainism]]), but majority identify themselves as hindus. as a matter of fact, on some restaurants in europe etc. u can find on menu Hindu Jain food. while some Jain can claim themselves to be separate from Hindus.
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 18:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
and as for [[Ambedkar]] part. read his article too(once). he denounced hinduism well into 1935 and even espoused the idea of separate Pakistan. he, infact, merged his political party, (independent labour party) with Muslim league and wrote editorials and all in favour of Pakistan in several papers and magazines. it was, when, he was disparaged by them, he decided not to go to pakistan and embrace islam. his aim was just to disparage hinduism, and nothing else.
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 18:52, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
::Nids what you wrote above is false propoganda and personal attacks on Babasaheb. The hindu sangh/parivar desperately tries to include both sikhs and buddhists and call them as hindus. This has political reasons. What is important is not any the official view but what the Buddhists and Sikhs consider themselves. The fact is that both these communities would prefer death than being called as parts of hinduism. Thus I ( a buddhist myself) will not allow any such wrong view.
The reason why, formerly scheduled caste, converts to Buddhism or Sikhism get reservation is because they relentlessly struggled for this right. There is no mention of 'Hindu' on their caste certificates. There is no such struggle inside the muslim community.The Andhra Pradesh goverment proposed reservations for muslims. But it was struck down by the courts and still there was no reaction by the Muslims. Lately Some voices are being raised in the christian community (John Dayal) for reservations but these have been viewed as a conversion tactic and hence dismissed. You cannot get anything free in India. You need to struggle for it. Your views are the same as those expressed on a POV fork (Neo Buddhism)It has been recommended for deletion and redirect to this page.--[[User:Yeditor|Yeditor]] 11:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
:for the ambedkar part, please refer to his article on wikipedia. if u r saying that this article is a POV, plz clarify. it is in this article that it is written that he merged his political party with Muslim league. he espoused the idea of separate pakistan, and he even asked his followers to join the british army during 1942, when Quit India movement was at prime and Congress asked all its supporters to withdraw from the anglican services. he was to go to settle in pakistan, but when he was insulted by them, he decided to settle in india only. i accept that he suffered atrocities as a child and his growing up years, but if u are goin to justify all his acts on that basis than u r justifying palestinian terrorists too, for whatever they do.
:and as for the official part, what will u say for Jains. and Arya Samaj. And Aghori Sadhus. all of these inculding neo-Buddhist have been included in the Hindus in the official Census of India 2001. i just want to mention these parts and also that they are eligible for reservations. moreover, even i know many buddhist who are happy to call themselves Hindus, who are u to take that right away from them. there may be some separatists, but nobody is forcing them to be called hindu. its just about their will and their right. while this right does not extend to say a muslim, or a christian that he can claim himself to be hindu at the same time.
:i m a hindu, and i like many of buddhs ideas. those ideas have, infact, influenced our [[Vedanta]] philosophy.
:please tell ur objections. [[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 15:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing it out. The misinformation on Dr. Ambedkar was an obvious attempt to villfy Dr Ambedkar by associating him with seperatists. It had no truth. Dr. Ambedkars thoughts ( Highly critical of Jihnna and Muslim league) can be found in his book [http://www.ambedkar.org/pakistan/ Pakistan or the Partition of India]. I have deleted that part. It was the Hindu Mahasabha Ideologue V. D Savarkar who exhorted indians to join the army and help the british. MK Gandhi also lent support to this move. not Babasaheb. I know all buddhists and sikhs are more than happy to dissassociate themselves from Hindus. The jains also dislike being called hindus. I am not taking away anyones right. On the contrary you seem extremely keen to deny distinct identity to Buddhist and Sikhs for your political reasons. Census matters are for the sake of mere convinience of counting. Census does not and cannot make any statement that Buddhism or Sikhism is a part of Hinduism. Thus there is no official view. --[[User:Yeditor|Yeditor]] 05:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
:Nids .. Please follow the link to read today’s Headline in India’s, national daily [http://www.hindu.com/2006/08/08/stories/2006080809810100.htm “The Hindu”. ] The Demand for Reservations for Christians and Muslims is becoming stronger and some state Governments ( Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu) are proposing them though the central government has not yet accepted the demand countrywide. Your argument of including Buddhists as Hindus on the basis of reservations thus falls flat--[[User:Yeditor|Yeditor]] 08:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
::Nids .. You are not being truthful when you say that Buddhists like to be called as Hindus. I would like to draw your attention to the 22 vows that more than 500,000 Buddhists took when the converted to Buddhism in 1956 in a grand ceremony at Nagpur. They are in this article. You should have at least read the full article before hitting the discussion page with your agenda. They show how vehemently the Buddhists have rejected Hinduism. For your information please read some of them below
1) I shall have no faith in Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh nor shall I worship them.
2) I shall have no faith in Rama and Krishna who are believed to be incarnation of God nor shall I worship them.
3) I shall have no faith in ‘Gauri’, Ganapati and other gods and goddesses of Hindus nor shall I worship them.
4) I do not believe in the incarnation of God.
5) I do not and shall not believe that Lord Buddha was the incarnation of Vishnu. I believe this to be sheer madness and false propaganda.
6) I shall not perform ‘Shraddha’ nor shall I give ‘pind-dan’.
8) I shall not allow any ceremonies to be performed by Brahmins.
'''19) I renounce Hinduism, which is harmful for humanity and impedes the advancement and development of humanity because it is based on inequality, and adopt Buddhism as my religion'''.--[[User:Yeditor|Yeditor]] 09:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
first of all, i hate hindu mahasabha and i know that even they lent support to british army for the second world war. i even dont like mahatma gandhi for many of his views, but it is wrong to accuse him that he supported the partition of indians in the war. whatever few literary texts i could read, i do not find any clear evidence of him supporting the war. he infact intesified the quit india movement in 1942. i dont see any reason why you cannot accept that ambedkar asked his followers to support the british army.
it is fact that he merged his independent labour party with the muslim league and espoused the idea of separate pakistan. the book that you are talking about, was written after he decided to settle in India. I think it would not be hard for you to accept that he had to write such book wherein he would ridicule pakistan, since he decided not to settle in pakistan. it wont be easy for him if he continued his same views.
as for the muslim and christian reservations, are you saying that they are demanding reservations on the basis of caste, or are they asking for reservations on the basis of religion. please tell me if they are asking reservations on the basis of caste. in that case it would make my reservation point useless and even ridiculous, (although i always thought that muslims and christians do not allow for caste differences, and support equality).
moreover, are you saying that these buddhists are different sect from traditional ones and anyone who accepts hinduism too, cannot be a part of neo-buddhist identity. i will then not try to harm there distinct identity, and accept that they are totally different from hinduism. but please point out that if you are saying these neo-buddhists are totally different from other buddhists.
also, can i ask you a personal question. since hinduism is not a well defined religion,(even an athiest can be a hindu), those buddhists who identify themselves as hindus too, can they be called hindu buddhas and included officially in hinduism.
waiting for your reply.
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 12:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
:::Now Buddhists and Hindus are totally separate religions. Please read 22 vows properly this proves the anti-Hindu stand of present Buddhist generations. Non-Brahmin Hindus especially Shudra Hindus don't accept any theory becasue Hipocricy is their heart. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 14:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
:::It continues to amaze me how these "self-styled Buddhists" tout ideals of Dhamma, Ahimsa and Shanti (faith, nonviolence and peace) and then go right around and express the most bilious (and, quite frankly, mentally diseased) hate and bile against millions of Hindus who are perfectly happy with their faith and who make no attacks on Buddhism, and, point of fact, REVERE the Buddha as a saint. In Bihar, there are millions of HINDUS who visit the tree of enlightenement to pray to it, and these "Buddhists" attack them. These people pervert the teachings of Buddha and exploit the political situation in India to fester bigotry and hate against Hindus in order to further their ambition.
:::I'm sorry if this sounds polemical,but these people frighten me more than the Islamic terrorists who bombed trains and murder women and children. It's like those so-called "Buddhists" who applauded Zia-ul-Haq when he ordered the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Hindus in Bangladesh and then went right around "Ahimsa" and publicly declared that Hindus do not deserve the same rights as others because they are "animals who deserve to get slaughtered". I appeal to these chauvinists to keep their views to themselves and not SOIL wikipedia with hate-speech and nonsense. This article has the most [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:NPOV]] violations that I have seen on wikipedia so far and statements that, if made in countries in Europe (with stringent hate-speech laws) would land them in prison like [[David Irving]].I am NOT a Hindu and have no partisan bias when I say this, but there is no ideological difference between the touters of [[anti-Hindu]] hate and [[Joseph Goebbels]], who demanded that millions of my people be shoved into ovens and murdered.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 08:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
== Nids and I ==
One By one: regarding Gandhi. Most people Indians as well as westerners know Gandhi as the hero of the movie “Gandhi”. If I ask your to refer Dr. Ambedkar’s “Mr. Gandhi and the Emancipation of Untouchables” or “Ranade, Gandhi and Jinnah” , U will reject it as baised, so I am referring you this book[http://history.eserver.org/ghandi-nobody-knows.txt “The Gandhi no body knows”] by Richard Grenier. Originally written as a critique of the movie “Gandhi”, now this is regarded as Gandhi’s biography. You will be surprised what a loyal soldier of ‘Her Majesty’ Gandhi was.. If you read through the book you will find ample evidence of Gandhi’s unflinching support of every war effort of the British stating from his career in South Africa, Below is an extract
“To present the Gandhi of 1893, a conventional caste Hindu, fresh from caste-ridden India where a Paraiyan could
pollute at 64 feet, as the champion of interracial equalitarianism is one of the
most brazen hypocrisies I have ever encountered in a serious movie.
The film, moreover, does not give the slightest hint as to Gandhi's attitude
toward blacks, and the viewers of 'Gandhi' would naturally suppose that, since
the future Great Soul opposed South African discrimination against Indians, he
would also oppose South African discrimination against black people. But this is
not so. While Gandhi, in South Africa, fought furiously to have Indians
recognized as loyal subjects of the British empire, and to have them enjoy the
full rights of Englishmen, he had no concern for blacks whatever. In fact,
during one of the "Kaffir Wars" he volunteered to organize a brigade of Indians
to put down a Zulu rising, and was decorated himself for valor under fire.
For, yes, Gandhi (Sergeant Major Gandhi) was awarded Victoria's coveted War
Medal. Throughout most of his life Gandhi had the most inordinate admiration for
British soldiers, their sense of duty, their discipline and stoicism in defeat
(a trait he emulated himself). He marveled that they retreated with heads high,
like victors. There was even a time in his life when Gandhi, hardly to be
distinguished >from Kipling's Gunga Din, wanted nothing much as to be a Soldier
of the Queen. Since this is not in keeping with the "spirit" of Gandhi, as
decided by Pandit Nehru and Indira Gandhi, it is naturally omitted from he
movie."--[[User:Yeditor|Yeditor]] 13:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
::"The Gandhi nobody knows" is an extremely racist rant cooked up by Grenier. It is full of factual errors ("Khilafat" is a mispronounciation of "Caliphate"?? Come on) and tantamounted to a hate-filled attack against all Indians (Westerners simply put all Indians as "Hindus", whether they are Hindu,Sikh, Muslim, Buddhist, or even Jewish). I seriously doubt that Grenier would even perceive a '''difference''' between Hindus and Buddhists. He'd just lump them all into "subhuman brown people", for all his hate and bile. He even went as far as saying that Islam was a "Western Religion" (odd, since today Neoconservatives argue the exact opposite and advocate bombing Muslim countries back to the stone age). The article has been thoroughly refuted by the publication below:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/38b451bdbfbefb61?
Titled :
"Why Gandhi drives the Neoconservatives Crazy".
Read it and be enlightened. In fact, the rebuttal is from the same neoconservative magazine from where Grenier published. Grenier was a neoconservative fanatic and would hate Buddhists EVEN more than he hated Hindus (since classical Buddhism preached nonviolence, and neoconservatives are extremely violent people and wish for war everywhere). [[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 18:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
first of all, many of my questions have remained unanswered. please read my above post and answer them.
i know that Gandhi was a ''chamcha'' of britishers,(just like Nehru) and i can cite further examples which even you do not know. i know he was awarded the victorian cross for being loyal to british. and as i already told you that i hate gandhi for many of his views.
what i did not know was that he supported the discrimination to the black majority of south africa. i will read this part for myself. and from authentic sources.
but are you denying that he intensified the quit india movement of 1942.
are you also denying that he, at least in last years of his life, worked for the upliftment of untouchables and even given them the name harijans.
and why are you not accepting the truth about ambedkar merging his independent labour party with muslim league. there are editorials that refer to his support for separate pakistan and even separate dalitistan. this is even referred now a days, when the lower caste political leaders support caste based reservations on the basis of his comments of receding the demand of separate dalitistan in return for 15% quota.
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 01:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
::Could someone please explain the relevance of Ambedkar merging his party with the Muslim League? What do we learn from this?—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 17:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
:::Dr. Ambedkar never merged his party with Muslim Leaue. To understand his views about Muslims please read [Partition of India OR Pakistan]. In this book Dr. Ambedkar clearly mentions that Muslim State is danger and Hindu State is very dangerous. Because both the religions are based on blind beliefs. The Buddhist movement in India is becoming stronger to anti-Buddhist Shudra Hindus are writing false things. The Non-Brahmin Hindus are Shudra Hindus. These Shudra Hindus are the enemies of Buddhism. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 14:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
actually there is no relevance of this in the particular article. it was brought up for it was said that the views i want to represent here are similar to gandhi and hindu mahasabha, so i explained the truth about ambedkar too.[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 19:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
====Reservations for christians and muslims====
I can tell you for a fact that the demand for reservations by these communities has been under that argument that even after they have changed their religion, their caste tag refuses to go and they still suffer discrimination at the hand of Hindus in public services (education, Jobs etc) because of their historical hindu caste . ( as all christians and muslims of were lower castes). I will search adequate references of John Dayal (head of Catholic association) who is championing the cause of reservations for christians and post it here for you. --[[User:Yeditor|Yeditor]] 14:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
you are wrong if you say, that only the lower castes converted to islam and christianity. i know many rajputs and other upper classes (including brahmins) who converted to islam and christianity. if they are denied reservations and only the lower caste converts to islam and christianity get the reservations, only in that case does it make my above point on reservation ridiculous and useless.
are you also saying that upper class hindus discriminated with lower class muslims and christians and supported the upper class converts.
as of now, no upper class buddhist convert gets reservation benefits. u only get reservation benefits if you were a scheduled caste before conversion.
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 01:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
:::Dear Nidhi, I think you are pretty much worried about reservation so I request you that don't change your religion. Change your caste. Become a proud Hindu Chamar Or proud Hindu Bhangi and take the benifits of reservation also tell the same thing to all your Hindu i.e. Shudra friends the simplest way to be a Hindu and also to get benifits of reservation. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 14:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
::I am talking in percentages.. When i say all, I mean most. lets not split hair. I dont have so much time to engage in a debate on everything under the sun. So please limit your discussion to the part you want to edit. Regarding buddhists, Before the mass conversion Buddhism was as good as dead in India. It was practiced in a very very insignificant number of people that to in very remote and inaccessible parts of the country like Ladhakh or few north eastern states. Thus it can be safely said that all the buddhists are so called Neo-Buddhists. there are hardly any "upper class" buddhists. a few arun shouries here and there do not count. Moreover the above demand for reservation is as made by John Dayal. I am only quoting him. --[[User:Yeditor|Yeditor]] 08:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
i also want to stick to the point. it does not matter what arun shourie says, but are u dissallowing a upper class hindu to convert to buddhism. moreover you said that there are going to be reservations for muslims and christians. i just wanted to know that will they be based on caste discriminations or religious ones. if and only if they are based on caste differences, does than it make my point useless.
[[User:Nidhishsinghal|nids]] 16:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
:: Anybody can convert to Buddhism. But for Hindus [[22 vows]] given by Bodhisattva Dr. Ambedkar are compulsory because they come from a caste ridden, degraded religious and very degraded spiritual background. Hindu Brahmin, Hindu Bhangi, Hindu Bania Or Hindu Chamar all are welcome in Buddhist fold. The Indian Buddhist are broad minded and always accept everybody. Today Buddhism in India is the fastest growing religion. Please read [[Riddles in Hinduism ]]written by Bodhisattva Ambedkar to know the real truth of Hindu religion. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 14:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
::So you do admit that Ambedkarite pseudo-Buddhists make special reservations for Hindus, which, in on itself, is a racist attitude held by the Ambedkarites.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 16:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
==Thegreyanomaly and all anti-Buddhist people==
User [[Thegreyanomaly]] the article "Indian Buddhist Movement" is about Religious movement which is growing in India slowly since last 50 years. If you are anti-Buddhist we certainly don't have any objection about your religion. You can be a Brahmin-Hindu if you are a priest by profession in any temple otherwise you are a [[Shudra]]-Hindu because all non-priest i.e. non-Brahmins are [[SHUDRA]] in Hindu Religion. In [[Kali Yuga]] Hindus have only two [[Varna]] as per the religious philosophy of Hindus. If you are from India then you might be knowing that Buddhism in India was totally killed. Some blame Brahmins Or some blame Muslims for that, it is a vast topic of study. I don't want to blame anybody. Hindu Castiesm, Hindu Untouchability and Caste based Graded Inequality became very strong after fall of Buddhism in Indian sub-continent and before British came to India. Education to all non-Brahmins was banned and the rigid Hindu Religious laws made by Brahmins like [[Manusmriti]], [[VishnuSmriti]] and other DharmaShastras became the laws to govern the non-Muslim society.
British gave education for all and broke the anti-Human Hindu Laws. After Independence Dr. Ambedkar revived Buddhism in India. He also established "Buddhist Society of India" certainly NOT Navayana Society! So there is no meaning branding the movement as Navayana. Because the founder of India's Buddhist Revival Movement which is certainly against Hindu Casteism and injustice that Hindus are doing since hundreds of years called his movement as Buddhist Movement. Also Dr. Ambedkar said that 'He will convert whole India back to Buddhism' but he was killed just within 6 weeks after his conversion to Buddhism. Some people blamed Brahmins for his death. It is not sure how he died. I dont want to blame anybody. So you can discuss current Buddhist Developments in the article "Indian Buddhist Movement". About Hindu Caste and related things you better write to Hindu Articles Or Caste Related to Articles. If Navayana is a anto-caste publication then you should put that link in [[Caste]] Related article.
In India legal system we have Hindus, Muslims, Christens and BUDDHIST as different religion. Expecially our 2001 cencus gives more details about different religions population. We dont have any 'Navayana Buddhist' in whole India neither it is recognized legally anywhere. Officially we have around 1% Buddhists in India. This population unofficially can be 4% also because thousands of people are converting to Buddhism. But lets take official figures.
Caste is a problem of Hindus certainly not the problem of Buddhists. Be a contributor to wikipedia but don't just try to vandalise different articles. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 10:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
::Caste is as much a problem for Muslims (Ashraf/Ajlaf/Sayyid/Mojahir) and christians (upper caste priests/lower caste parishoners) as it is for Hindus see [[Indian Caste System]] for sourced edits to that effect (remember sources? Those things that peoper editors do?).[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 16:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Those [[Brahmin]] and [[Shudra]] so called Hindus converted to Islam has carried the Caste to even Muslims and polluted Islam with Hindu Casteism. The basic problem is in [[Varnas]] preached by Veda and DharmaShastra. But why are dragging Muslims here? The current debate is only about present status of [[Indian Buddhist Movement]]. We do not care casteism of [[Shudra]] Or Muslims. plese concentrate on Buddhist Issue dont mix with other issuse OK. Can you tell me which [[Varna]] Hinud are you?? [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]]
==Warning==
:This article is, as it stands, complete hatemongering nonsense. It is full of unsourced rubbish and weasel words. I am warning all parties that if they persist in using wikipedia as a soapbox to express false views and tout hate-speech I will bring admins into this matter and file a full request for arbitration. Please cooperate to build an objective and useful article that presents the facts without POV.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 07:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Above is false propoganda, This warning applies to you. Stop pushing Bhramin Pov. [[User:Yeditor|Yeditor]] 14:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
::This warning applies to you. Stop being incivil and making racial slurs against people or you will be reported.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]]
:::Buddhist Movement is strongest religious movement in India so the anti-Buddhist people especially caste Hindu [[Brahmin]]s and their fellow [[Shudra]] [[Varna]] [[Hindu]] brothers always oppose any unbiased truth telling articles. It is my open challenge to the world community to come to India and see how different people from various castes e.g. [[Dalits]], Nomadic Tribes, [[Bhangi]] and even [[Brahmin]] are converting to Buddhism to end caste system. The charges by all non-priest by profession i.e. [[Shudra]] Hindus are absolute false. It is my request to Arbitation Committee to look in the all the articles by Caste Brahmin and Shudra Hindus. Those wants to check the present status please come to India I'll arrange meetings and will give you live proofs also. I am a Buddhist and working among India's poorest masses like Untouchables. Our religious friends from Japan,ShriLanka, Taiwan and England are actively involved in Buddhist Movement in India. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 17:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
:[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] please be specific to the points you want to change. Buddhism is the stongest religious movement in India. This year is the 2550th anniversary of Buddha and 50th anniversary of religious conversion day of Dr. Ambedkar. So please visit October 2006 to[[Nagpur]] in India and see how thousands of people from several castes are converting to Buddhism with [[22 vows]]. This shown the Dr. Ambedkar's castelesss movement is successful and Indians is once again converting to [[Buddhism]] also [[22 vows]] make the anti-Brahmin and anti-Hindu stance very much clear. So don't feel bad about success of Buddhism in India. Don't be anti-Buddhist because world Buddhist are coming together. [[Buddhist]] from [[Japan]], [[England]], [[Taiwan]], [[ShriLanka]] are propagating Buddhism in India. These people are helping to strengthened the Buddhist movement started by Dr. Ambedkar on 14th October 2006. This article discusses the present Buddhist religious activities in Indian Buddhism and its revival. So be a positive contributor if not then at least don’t show your anti-Buddhist sentiments. It is difficult for a [[Shudra]] [[Varna]] [[Hindu]] like you to understand the current Buddhist movement and how the Buddhist world is helping Indian Buddhist. Better understand your own Hindu Religion; especially [[Veda]],[[Geeta]], [[Varna]] and Hindu [[Caste system.]] preached by Hindu religious scripture. Also know that all those so-called Hindus who are not priests by current profession are Shudra by Varna i.e. VarnaShram Dhamra. So please understand all religions comparatively with all positive and negative aspects to create a religious harmony [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 18:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
:Hkelkar i believe is Jewish. It hardly matters to him. Instead of unsourced, illogical, and imaginative rants about "Brahminism", why not find some actual sources from '''real writers/ historians''' to back this up. Buddhism declined because they couldn't argue with [[Adi Shankara]], he crushed them in his debates, and because peace is not the best way to fight the [[Muslim conquest of the Indian subcontinent]].[[User:Bakasuprman|Bakaman]] [[User talk:Bakasuprman|<sub style="color:blue;">Bakatalk</sub>]] 01:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
:: Don't try to divert the attenstion by making false claims. Why are you branding [[Hkelkar]] as Jew? It is [[Hkelkar]] who will tell his identity. If he is Jew then why is branding [[Buddhist]] movement in India as anti-Hindu again and again? [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 10:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::Actually I am Jewish, and am now going to report these ethnic characterizations as personal attacks.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 16:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
==Or and weasel:New discussion==
:The 22 vows is unsourced and, as it is written now, is basically pure hatemongering. I give one last warning before I will report this to arbitration. Several other claims are unsourced.
:Several weasel words in this article subtly trying to tout racist anti-Hindu dialectic.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 16:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::The 22 vows may or may not be "hatemongering", but they are a quote from Ambedkar, which means that we are simply reporting it. As for the weasel words, can you give some examples?—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 16:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::First of all cite a source for the 22 vows. The claim that the 22 vows make his anti-Hindu racism "clear" is uncited and POV. Several weasel words are below:
::"These leaders argue that the actual numbers are considerably higher"?????? actual, probably etc etc. What the hell are these?[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 16:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Lets take only official and legal data from www.censusindia.net OK? Whatever legal sources accpet the Indian Buddhist population lets accept. So this point is also clear. Anything else? [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 17:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:::That still does not address the weasel words in this article.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 17:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::"However, it remains to be seen whether this move will be able to successfully reinvigorate the Indian Buddhist movement.". "remains to be seen"????? By whom??? Who says so? The editor?[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 16:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::::I don't really understand your points. The word "probably" does not appear in this article. The word "actual" is not a weasel word. Is "However, it remains to be seen ..." intended as an example of weasel wording? I agree that it is not an example of exemplary encyclopedia writing; that said, however, it is entirely neutral and I don't see what makes it contentious.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 17:27, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::At best, it's OR because it does not cite the person or persons who "remain to see" anything.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 09:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
:::The issue of 22 Vows was sorted out on Dr. [[Ambedkar]] article's discussion.please read there. So finally it was moved from [[Ambedkar]] article to this article. So why again same discussion? [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 17:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:::It's still unsourced here. I am not concerned with the Amdedkar article here. I am only concerned with this article and it's obvious hate-speech.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 17:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Hkelkar, do you disagree that Ambedkar said these things? If not, we can provide a good citation in an orderly fashion, but there is no need to argue about it on the talk page. And, frankly, your continued references to "obvious hate-speech" in this article make you seem more than a little tendentious and border on trolling.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 17:27, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::I want sources to that effect. Since wikipedia is not a reliable source for wikipedia, I want third party sources.
:::Do you assert or suspect that it is untrue?—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 17:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::::My assertions are unimportant. I want satisfaction of [[WP:Reliable Sources]].[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 18:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::::[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] and [[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] this year October 2006 is a 50th anniversary of Dr. Ambedkar's conversion to Buddhism. And WOLRD BUDDHIST Conferece is arranged in Nagpur. If kelkar Or all anti-Buddhist people who are unaware of the Present [[Indian Buddhist Movement]] can come and understand the status. Please visit www.jambudvipa.org for further details. Our British Buddhist Friends, FWBO www.fwbo.org and www.tbmsg.org has arranged the International meet. so Questions raised by Kelkar can be easily sorted out. Just to be anti-Buddhist is a mind set of Brahmin-Shudra Hindus. Also visit www.buddhistchannel.tv for current news and updates. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]]
:::::Wikipedia is a place for proper and preferably scholarly edits. It is not a soapbox for linkspamming and religious proselytizing.Please take yourt preachings to a blog or a forum somewhere. You're annoying people here.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 09:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
::Look, the fact remains that the editor who has been slanting this article seems to have an agenda of defaming Hindus. As long as the Indian so-called "Buddhist" movement is discussed on its own merits (as oposed to lashing out at Hindus) then it's fine. As it stands, I belive that it's hate-speech.I'm sorry if you find this "tendentious", but I would welcome any reasonable discussion on this matter, instead of Dhammafriends "tendentious" edits and polemical attacks on this talk page.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 17:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Fine, let's have a neutral and non-tendentious article. What do the 22 vows have to do with this?—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 17:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Where is the source for these 22 vows? Is it necessary to mention all of them here? I think it's necessary only to mention key vows and point the reader to the reference for the sake of brevity.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 18:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:Indian so-called "Buddhist" movement is popular?? On which planet? If it's do damn popular why do Buddhists form an insignificant fraction of the population per all reliable and verifiable statistics???[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]]
::How significant is your command of the English language, that you have chosen to start critiquing other people's choice of wording? www.m-w.com describes popular as meaning "''of or relating to the general public''"; what this means is, a movement that is not restricted to a few intellectuals.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 17:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::The wording here is out of context. It indicates that Buddhism is a majority movement (popular in the more er "popular" meaning). I feel that this should be expanded to specifying the context in which the word "popular" is used to remove ambiguities.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 17:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::"Buddha and Dhamma" is a Buddhist "Bible"? Who says so? Do Buddhists in Japan agree? Do Buddhists in Laos agree? Are Laotian Buddhists even aware of the existence of this so-called "Buddhist Bible"???[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 17:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:::I agree with you on this point.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 17:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:::The Article is rlated to only Indian Buddhist and present Indian Buddhist Movement. Why are you dragging Japan, China here? [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]]
:::Because you claim that it is the "Bible" (oh dear Gawds) for Buddhists ie ALL Buddhists ie even buddhists in other countries which is completely false and, quite frankly, [[gibberish]].
:::"Proper Understanding of Buddhism"??? As detailed by Ambedkar??? Yeah,right! So the millions of Buddhists in China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia etc who haven't even heard of this Ambedkar guy do not have a proper understanding of Buddhism, is that it? Ridiculous![[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 17:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Good point. I took out that whole section.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 17:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:::: [[anti-Buddhist]] hate is too much in [[Brahmin]] [[Shudra]] [[Hindu]] minds. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]]
::::You don't seem to be too short on [[anti-Hindu]] propaganda either.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 09:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
::::In fact, all this laughable content that was put there by a truly "tendentious" editor serves to demonstrate the cultish nature of this so-called Indian Buddhist movement.Like any cult, they deny the truth about Buddhism being a primarily non-Indian religion and try to establish writings by obscure writers (to most Buddhists in the world) as some sort of canon. This is exactly the kind of attitude held by the [[Mormons]] or the [[Scientologists]].[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 18:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::::: Mr.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] you are not the first anti-Buddhit person on this planet. the Indian Buddhist Movement is very strong and fastest growing religous movement on planet known as Earth. The country is India i.e. Bharat. For Statistical details over the period of last 50 yers please visit Census India site. I think all your question have got the answers ! The Language used by u like which planet etc.. shows you are full hate towards [[Buddhist]] so debate is a civilised manner. [[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] has initiated the talks in a good manner so you be also talk in a good manner. I do undertand [[Vanas]] [[Hindu]] Religion, Caste System, DharmaShastras and Hindu Religious lasws etc very well.[[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]]
:::::I HAVE HAD ENOUGH!! Despite repeated warnings and a word from an admin you continue to attack me, calling me "anti-Buddhist", "Brahman", "Shudra" and what not. I am reporting this user again as warning him has clearly served no purpose.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 09:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::Contrary to your trollish rants here I am not an anti-Buddhist, nor an [[anti-Hindu]], [[anti-Semite]], [[anti-Muslim]], [[anti-Christian]], or anti-Scientologist, anti-Mormon, anti-Feminist, anti-Homosexual, anti-Martian, anti-Bahaii, anti-Zoroastrian, or anti-anyone. I TOO respect all human beings and all peoples of all faiths, cultures, and creeds. What I have trouble respecting are people who waste other people's valuable time and attack and characterize the ethnicity of users when they can;t make any coherent arguments. Particularly disturbing is that the said ethnicities or religious affiliations have absolutely no bearing on their edits on wikipedia. Please stop this RIGHT NOW.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 09:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
==My Sources==
::::::I have cited sources that show that scholars have called Ambedkarite Buddhism navayāna. Dhammafriend refuses to believe that Ambedkarite Buddhism could be branded
:It is true that Dr. Ambedkar played a very important role in reviving Buddhism in India so we respect him a lot and the Buddhist world also very much interested in his interpretation of Buddhism for a social cause. It is only a one part of mass Buddist Movement in India. All have come together. So people from Tamil Nadu like Sakya Group by [[Iyothee Thass]], [[Dharmananda Kosambi]], [[Ambedkar]], Banglore Mahabodi Society by Acharya BuddhaRakkhita all compramises a true Indian Buddhist Movement. So we can't brand current movement as only and only movement of Ambedkar. Even [[British]] [[Buddhist]] who are settled in India have dedicated their life for development of Buddhism in India. Please visit http://www.tbmsg.org[[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]]
:::::::Dr. Ambedkar revived Buddhism in India so you can not brand is Old OR Neo! Its Buddhism. People from Europe /USA are converting to their own found Buddhist practices. All are Buddhist so newly converted people are not branded as neo ! Please also visit www.e-b-u.org. In Indian Context Buddhist from Ladakh, Assam, Maharshtra, Karnataka etc. are a fighting unitedly for Buddhist Revival. Do you know All Indian Buddhist Monk Association ? Especially for Mahabodhi Temple Liberation Movement world Buddhist are united. Buddhist monk from Japan Bhante Surai Sasai is doing best in Central Region of India Nagpur to mobiliese masses Dhammafriend 10:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::the fact is all Buddhism is branded something or the other and scholars have branded Ambedkarite Buddhism as navayāna. Ambedkarite Buddhism is the only Buddhist movement in India. Buddhists from Ladakh, Assam, or Darjeeling are ancestral Buddhist populations that did not get extinguished, hence, the "Indian Buddhist Movement" should only be applicable to Ambedkarite Buddhism, which has been called navayāna
::::::Dhammafriend is stubborn and keeps reverting the article and removing statement "or Navayāna Buddhism (Pāli नवयान navayāna, literally "new vehicle")". May I put this back in, along with my citation.
:::::[[User:Thegreyanomaly|Thegreyanomaly]] 02:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::I originally posted this on [[User talk:Tom harrison|Tom Harrison's talk page]], but he said he needs a third opinion.
:::::Gail Omvedt has called in Navayana in her book Buddhism in India: Challenging Brahminism and Caste and I've ssen it in the index of Reconstructing the World: B. R. Ambedkar and Buddhism in India by Surendra Jondhale and Johannes Beltz
:Buddhist in India is a homogeneous society. I have told many times see the ALL INDIA BUDDHIST MONKs Organiation and MAHABODHI VIAHAR you will get that all are together. Also see MAHABODHI TEMPLE LIBERATION MOVEMENT and current upadates. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]]
:::::Its known that Ambedkarite Buddhism does vary from the main 'ancient' sects, hence, it itself should be a sect and the last time I checked it is mainly Ambedkarite Buddhism that can be called an Indian Buddhist movement and scholars have called this Buddhism, Navayāna
:::::[[User:Thegreyanomaly|Thegreyanomaly]] 19:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
The claims made in the caste-barrier section are all unsourced and, quite frankly, read like the proselytization of a preacher (Dhamma-thumper?).Provide cited sources to establish reliable statistics, or the section also gets axed.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 20:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:: Mr. [[User:Thegreyanomaly|Thegreyanomaly]] and Mr.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] I dont know which [[Varnas]] you belong to, might be [[Shudra]] [[Varnas]] because only preist in temples are [[Brahmin]] rests are Shudras as per Vedic and Hindu religion. But we know that Brahmin and Shudra i.e. so called Hindus both are staunch [[anti-Buddhist]] people. So for your information I am a [[Buddhist]] Missionary currently in GERMANY. The Buddhist world has taken serious interest in [[Indian Buddhist Movement]]. I have told you many times that check the Indian Census, National Minority Commission of India reports but you people are not ready to believe even the proper resourced material. See how Buddhist population aand Indian Buddhist Movement is growing fast. These are Indian Govt. Resources so you MUST believe the legal statistics provided by India. I have greater and practicle experiece in working Slums Of India propagating Buddhism. Our [[British]] [[Buddhsit]] Friends as well people from [[Japan]], Like Bhante Nagarjun Surai Sasai are helping us in India. Visit http://ncm.nic.in/ and http://www.censusindia.net/ http://www.fwbo.org http://www.tbmsg.org[[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]]
::For a Buddhist you sure engage in spreading a lot of [[anti-Hindu]] misinformation. Stop linkspamming.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 10:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
==Debate and Discuss points==
All users if anything is not acceptable then put a point in the discussion page and then correct it. I have corrected few points such as Proper Understanding of Buddhism. For me it not acceptable in Global Context but I think in Indian Context is it right. Fall of Buddhism and Revival of Buddhism are interesting points for world scholars and especially [[Buddhist]] scholars. Don't keep any hate in mind before reverting others comments. The Many Scholars are doing research in India about Buddhism and day by day the relations between [[Hindu]]s and [[Buddhist]] are like fighting modes. So this is not the place to fight. Only debate and corrent the statements to keep the article good and informative. Religion is a sensitive issue so be cool [[User:Truthlover|Truthlover]] 17:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
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:[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] please be specific to the points you want to change. Buddhism is the stongest religious movement in India. This year is the 2550th anniversary of Buddha and 50th anniversary of religious conversion day of Dr. Ambedkar. So please visit October 2006 to[[Nagpur]] in India and see how thousands of people from several castes are converting to Buddhism with [[22 vows]]. This shown the Dr. Ambedkar's castelesss movement is successful and Indians is once again converting to [[Buddhism]] also [[22 vows]] make the anti-Brahmin and anti-Hindu stance very much clear. So don't feel bad about success of Buddhism in India. Don't be anti-Buddhist because world Buddhist are coming together. [[Buddhist]] from [[Japan]], [[England]], [[Taiwan]], [[ShriLanka]] are propagating Buddhism in India. These people are helping to strengthened the Buddhist movement started by Dr. Ambedkar on 14th October 2006. This article discusses the present Buddhist religious activities in Indian Buddhism and its revival. So be a positive contributor if not then at least don’t show your anti-Buddhist sentiments. It is difficult for a [[Shudra]] [[Varna]] [[Hindu]] like you to understand the current Buddhist movement and how the Buddhist world is helping Indian Buddhist. Better understand your own Hindu Religion; especially [[Veda]],[[Geeta]], [[Varna]] and Hindu [[Caste system.]] preached by Hindu religious scripture. Also know that all those so-called Hindus who are not priests by current profession are Shudra by Varna i.e. VarnaShram Dhamra. So please understand all religions comparatively with all positive and negative aspects to create a religious harmony [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 18:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
:Hkelkar i believe is Jewish. It hardly matters to him. Instead of unsourced, illogical, and imaginative rants about "Brahminism", why not find some actual sources from '''real writers/ historians''' to back this up. Buddhism declined because they couldn't argue with [[Adi Shankara]], he crushed them in his debates, and because peace is not the best way to fight the [[Muslim conquest of the Indian subcontinent]].[[User:Bakasuprman|Bakaman]]
:: Don't try to divert the attenstion by making false claims. Why are you branding [[Hkelkar]] as Jew? It is [[Hkelkar]] who will tell his identity. If he is Jew then why is branding [[Buddhist]] movement in India as anti-Hindu again and again? [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 10:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
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But both are not coming forward to discuss the present real Indian Buddhist Movement. I have invited them for personnal discussion manytime but both are running aways. To clear your views about Buddhist Movement in India I can arrange meetings and discussions through our [[Buddhist]] organizarional members in USA, Europe and India. I am a [[Buddhist]] Missionary and working for Buddha Dhamma propagation in India. These days I am travelling and working for Dhamma Mission in Germany. So be bold to come forward and discuss the [[Indian Buddhist Movement]]. This October 2006 at Nagpur, India thousands of people wil be converting to [[Buddhism]] in India to escape Brahmin-[[Shudra]] Hindu Casteism. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 14:03, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
:For some reason the [[Dalai Lama]] seems more [[Hindutva]] than convert seeker [http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15022001/Art28.htm]. I wonder why?[[User:Bakasuprman|Bakaman]]
::Naturally the terrorist propaganda machine milligazette truncated the article. Here is the original full article with background and further events:
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[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 04:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
:It takes quite a nerve to suggest that actions of a buddhist missionary like Dhammafriend are disapproved by HH Dalai Lama simply because he is a missionary, from your own link: "'''Some Spanish prefer Buddhism; so follow it. But think about it carefully.''' Don't do it for fashion" Also, http://hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdlquotes111.html
:"I would like to share some of my thoughts with all of you gathered here, brothers and sisters in Buddhism. First of all, Buddhism corresponds to a new tradition, a religion which did not previously exist in the West. Consequently, it is normal that all those who are interested in Buddhism in its Tibetan form would also like to be informed about and continue to study other religions and traditions. This is perfectly natural. However, '''for those who are seriously thinking of converting to Buddhism, that is, of changing your religion, it is very important to take every precaution. This must not be done lightly. Indeed, if one converts without having thought about it in a mature way, this often creates difficulties and leads to great inner confusion. I would therefore advise all who would like to convert to Buddhism to think carefully before doing so.'''
:Second, '''when an individual is convinced that Buddhist teachings are better adapted to his or her disposition, that they are more effective, it is quite right that this religion be chosen.''' "
:So to say that HH Dalai Lama would condemn the activities of Dhammafriend and even Bodhidharma (!!!! thats an amazing insult to so many east asian buddhists!!!) is to claim that they advised people to mindlessly convert to buddhism out of fashion. There is no evidence whatsoever that HH Dalai Lama would disapprove of buddhist missionaries, for, after all, what could then be said of Padmasambhava, who brought buddhism to tibet?? --[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 12:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::And you accused me of being "offtopic". Lol! A fanatic is easy to spot. Dhammawhosit can preach hatred all he wants. He just needs to keep it off wikipedia.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 01:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
::Pointing to and correcting a misuse and mispresentation of the words of HHDL is no more offtopic that that misuse of the words by HHDL. Think of another user whatever you wish as far as Im concearned, but dont misuse HH Dalai Lama to make your points when he doesnt. And this still doesnt even touch the fact that along with the user you found it necessary to mention Bodhidharma.. --[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 11:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
== VOI link ==
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==Goenka is associated with the Indian Buddhist movement?==
Where is the proof or at least the indication that Goenka is associated with the Indian Buddhist movement. If there is no such proof then the section about him should be moved to [[Buddhism in India]].[[User:Andries|Andries]] 17:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems 'influential in' rather than simply 'associated with', but influential enought to warrant a mention. I dont see there actually being a consensus on his removal, as is claimed in the edit summary when he was removed; there have simply been no comments in the two days. Quick googling came up with this:
" the first year when I moved to India from Burma, there was a big public function put on by Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar's followers, who had become Buddhists. They invited me to their annual celebration of the day that Dr. Ambedkar converted to Buddhism. " - so thats one clear link, given by Goenka himself. Another link I found in this secondary source: http://www.sociology.ed.ac.uk/sas/papers/panel2_zelliot.rtf :
"The center at Igatpuri founded by S.N. Goenka draws seekers from all over the world, including a sizable number of Maharashtrian Buddhists. One has even gone to a Vipassana meditation camp in the United States, and there is a group of graduate students at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, none of them from Maharashtra, who have take the initial ten day Vipassana course and conduct Saturday night meditation sessions in their dormitories. Proof that not only highly educated elite Buddhists attend Vipassana meditation sessions comes in a backhanded way from a Brahmin woman in Pune who complained that 'all these people who come to Igatpuri know nothing about Buddhism.' Goenka, on the other hand, has been very welcoming to Ambedkar Buddhists since he began teaching Vipassana meditation in the early 1970's." - so both confirm both a significant Goenka following in teh I.B.M. circles, and call Goenka "very welcoming to Ambedkar Buddhists", so clearly there is a link.
Another fragment comes from http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-NX012/nx059202.htm - and one of the largest buddhology archives on the net:
"After Dr. Ambedkar
The great tragedy was that he died just 6 weeks after the conversion leaving a movement of millions of the most backward and exploited people in India leaderless. ... There was, , very little effective Dharma teaching amongst the new .... Shri Goenka who teaches what he calls Vipassana meditation has also been extremely sympathetic, and many new Buddhists have benefited from his meditation retreats, "
again prominently mentioning Goenka as a teacher to the 'new buddhists' and even characterising him as 'extremely sympathetic' to them specifically.
I think there is clear evidence there is a link, and so will revert the deletion of that paragraph --[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 12:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
:Why not write simply that Goenka has been a meditation teacher for some members of the Indian Buddhist movement and leave it at that? [[User:Andries|Andries]] 22:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I have no dog in this, nor a wish to edit the article; phrase it as you wish. I simply showed some easily obtainable evidece of the appropriateness of some form of a mention. --[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 03:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
==This entire article is unsourced==
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==ALL so-called Ambedkarites are NOT Buddhists in India they are still HINDU==
So-called Ambedkarite concept is not applied to particular Religion such as Hindu, Christen, Or Buddhist. "According to the 2001 census, there are currently 7.95 million Buddhists in India i.e.0.8 % of total population of India, at least 5.83 million of whom are Buddhists in Maharashtra." This is the only MINORITY Population of Buddhists in India. Compared to 1951 census the percentage increase compared to any other Religion such as Hindu OR Muslim the [[Buddhist]] population in India growing fast. Especially because of religious conversion. In 2006 thousands of people have converted to Buddhism and International Media such as BBC and may others have given proper news about it. The article [[Indian Buddhist Movement]] is about only [[Buddhist]] people in India and their religious activities.[[User:Ambedkaritebuddhist|Ambedkaritebuddhist]] 09:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Im confused by this comment. They are hindu? But I thought the point of the ceremony was precisely to denounce hindusim for the percieved injustice done by it to the Dalits? So how could they be hindu? Religion is a matter of identity, surely theyve made it clear they dont accept this identity? --[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 08:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::The [[anti-Buddhist]] [[Brahmin]] people say that there are no Buddhist people at all in India also they argue that there is no [[Indian Buddhist Movement]]. They say only few Ambedkarites are writing the article. To PROVE the point that there is a very strong BUDDHIST MOVEMENT in India I gave them the actual and practicle Data Available on official CENCUS web site of India. There are millions of Ambedkarite all over India and world but all are not converted to Buddhism by taking 22 vows. So the people who are denouncing Caste based Hindu Religon and CONVERTING to Buddhism are [[Buddhist]]. Rest of the people in Govt. cencus is FORCIBLY and Cheatingly calculated as [[Hindu]]. To prove our point finally we have to give official data. So lets convert more people to Buddhism and show the world that [[Indian Buddhist Movement]] is alive and wrowing faster.Don't waste much time with debating hypocrate people but give PROPER REFERENCES and PROOFS and shut the mouth of such people. Take my inputs as positive manner. [[User:Ambedkaritebuddhist|Ambedkaritebuddhist]] 16:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
==Useless Article==
This article is useless and meanigless. Administrators please whole delete the article. Buddhism means non-violence but the lower caste converted to buddhism dont understant basics of buddhism. [[User:Holybrahmin|Holybrahmin]] 17:33, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
:The article cannot be deleted because the subject is clearly notable. [[User:Andries|Andries]] 17:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
::But this article is against upper caste [[Brahmin]]s so it is better to delte. The <b>lower caste people are becoming [[anti-Hindu]].</b>[[User:Holybrahmin|Holybrahmin]] 09:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
:::What is lower caste/ upper caste? Your Hindu religion is casteiest doesn't mean all religions are like that. We [[Buddhist]]s belivene in equality. Casteism by Hindu Religion is wrong and whole civilised wolrd blame anti-Buddhist [[Brahmins]] [[User:Ambedkaritebuddhist|Ambedkaritebuddhist]] 16:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
:::People have misunderstood [[Hinduism]]. Its a philosophy of love for God [[User:Holybrahmin|Holybrahmin]] 09:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Im sure this contraversy is gaining intensity due to the currently warming up campaing of Dalit conversions. To think someone would claim this to be a useless article is really amazing. It really makes no difference is someone consideres it anti-Hindu, im sure Dr Ambedkar would not disagree one bit, see his book "Revolution and Counter-Revolution in Ancient India" for his attitudes about Hinduism being a philosophy of love for God. But could you please explain to me why precisely would an article about someone supposedly against the upper caste be better deleated? By this logic, wikipedia should better delete all articles about communism and marxism and anarchism as well, since those movements are definitely against the upper class?? So wikipedia should not even mention that yugoslavia for instance existed in areas where I live, because its ideology was communist? I must say that personally Im not exactly saddened by the fact that lower casts are becomming less than satisfied with their traditional position in Hinduism, so I dont find it so appaling even if they are becomming anti-Hinduist (anti-Hindu i think would be ethnic not religious concept, so is out of place). One can certaly understand why. Mentioning it being an anti-hinduist atitude would make sence, again this is clearly the feel I had from reading the abovementioned book by Ambedkar. He was not symphathetic to hinduism, though, again, one can understand why. For all the undeniable greatness (and personal fascination) India has, I must say this aspect doesnt serve it to its honor...--[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 07:59, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::The problem is that Christianity in India also has a well-oiled caste system in operation, so conversion to Christianity is a ploy and does not help the Dalits. The [[anti-Hindu]] semtiments are not those of the Dalits converting but those of the rabidly Fundamentalist and violently racist missionaries who are manipulating them to do so, while the Dalits' plight does not change one iota. See [[national Liberation Front of Tripura]] for the real agenda of the missionaries and the massive slaughter of Hindus perpetrated on their behest.
::Dalit Christians are just as persecuted by upper caste priests and nuns in Chtristian communities. With Islam it is even worse. Read Ambedkar's "Pakistan and the Partition of India", where the Muslim Caste System is adequately exposed, as well as the plight of the "Arzal" untouchables (Muslim Dalits) exploited by "Ashraf" upper caste Muslims.
::As far as Buddhism is concerned, well, Neo-Buddhism is not Buddhism at all, but a cult of sociopaths disguising themselves as Buddhists who are trying to gain political mileage in India by inciting communal disharmony. The caste system can be whittled out, but through social reform, not through "religious conversions". The Dalit situation will only get worse with conversion as that will solve nothing and only give them a false sense of accomplishment while the Neo-Buddhist cult cashes in on the publicity assiduously.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 08:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::Plus, blaming all the problems on the Caste Sytem alone is a very typical polemic based mre out of ignorance than any real knowledge of sociology or social dynamics. The Caste System is a highly mobile and flexible stratification and has been established as such by many western sociologists. However, it is, at best, and anachronism that will not help India anymore, it cannot be eliminated through the genocide of Hindus but through social reform, which these Neo-Buddhist whack-bags are not doing at all.
::Besides, India is hardly the only country to have social stratification. From the Cohen/Israelites of Eretz Israel to the Castas of Latin America and the al-Akhdham untouchables of Yemen this happens all over the world. It is the inherent weaknesses of the Hindus as a people, their excessive acceptance of foreigners and their nonchalance to the genocide of their own people that makes India an easy target for the racist missionaries and their Eurocentric re-colonialization of India behind the veneer of "emancipating the Dalits". That's all it is, a veneer.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 08:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
well the poster I responded to claimed that those wery lower casts are becoming anti-Hindu, not that their dissatisfaction is being manipulated by anti-Hindus. And all this has nothing to do with the heading under which were discussing; that this is a useless article. Of course caste system will not be touched by the conversions themselves, they are symbolic acts. That doesnt make them useless. Now I hope you can show why Neo-Buddhists are 'cult of sociopaths' and make more precise those spaceous claims of 'inciting communal disharmony' (one could hardly consider there to be harmony to begin with in the context of a caste system, right?) and 'genocide of Hindus' (extreme, no?) , and how this came about in the mere 50 years after Ambedkars death; this really extreme statement alone makes me feel less than inclined to take your word for anything about this situation. Its hard to think that a religious movemet would be primarely about the cast system, hopefully its primarely about the religion, but if it can be of symbolic service to a caste as well, why not. The flexibility of caste is hardly an impressive plus, and I, under the influence class conflicts of my areas, happen to believe in egalitarian social relationships, so tend to look down on rethoric that justifies caste 'stratification' with examples of blatant class opression. Now a concern about the 'excessive acceptance of foreigners .. racist missionaries' and 'nonachalance to the genocide of their own people' (again, one extreme phrase after another) while potentially justified is far from clearly the case here, and hard to make relevant to this article.--[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 08:35, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::You want clarity? Look at the [[National Liberation Front of Tripura]] and their full scale genocide of Hindus. This is a terrorist movement launched by racist Christian missionaries. This is pure genocide. Over 13000 Hindus slaughtered like cattle in 3 years alone is genocide. Over half a million Hindus ethnically cleansed from kashmir by Muslim terrorists is just as bad. 80,000 Hindus killed in Kashmir over the last 20 years by terrorists is genocide. This is just a simple fact. Naturally, liberals don;t see this as such because liberals are genocidal people themselves. They have the same intolerance and mania that they claim to oppose. Liberals are hypocrites and secular fascists. I would rather have caste than have a disgusting and barbaric concept like socialism in India.Socialism is the great poison of Humanity. Show me one socialist country that has done anything as worthwhile as the USA or Japan? None. Socialist countries are miserable shitholes where people rot in their own defecations for eternity while madmen like Kim Jong Il and Hugo Chavez destroy their own people and drag their countries back to the stone age. I hope that the Americans do us all a favour and bomb them all straight to the ninth level of hell.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 08:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::The fact that neo-Buddhists are a cult can be gleaned from their acts. If they genuinely cared about the plight of the Dalits then they would work with Indians to improve their situation. Look at [[Lalu Prasad Yadav]]. Now there's an example of how lower castes SHOULD be emancipated.
::Your "symbolic" argument is typical liberal socialist dialectic and does not gel with the facts."Symbolic" means nothing unless the people "Symbolizing" have a deep-seated hatred for Hindus. Then the "symbols" mean something only to those haters and bigots, not to reasonable people. The Neo-Buddhist cult have done nothing productive at all. They are like the [[scientology]] people in America. They clain to advocate for a better way of life but all they do is take your money and run.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 08:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::"Egalitarian", eh? Sounds like Socialism to me! How many people have socialists murdered in the 20th century? Stalin's genocide of the Kulaks, Mao's "Cultural Revolution" and "GReat Leap Forward" caused millions of deaths, Pol-pot, Lon-Nol, and now Kim-Jong-Il. Egalitarians have caused more deaths than all the religions of the world put together in the 20th century. No thanks. Let the Americans bomb them all. they can rot together with their friends in [[al-Qaeda]].[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 08:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::That having said, I do not agree with the original poster that this article is "useless", or that dalits are turning "anti-Hindu". The anti-Hindus are the bastards who are running the show.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]]
Egalitarian and yes socialist in the sense of Sweden, Switzerland, Norway and much of Europe, who all justifiedly claim socialist heritage .. So, liberals and socialists are criptofascists, friends of al-quaeda that should be bombed, symbolic defiance to opression is 'typical liberal socialist dialectic' that means anything only to haters and bigots, neobuddhists bastards and a cult of hindu hatred, and Pol Pot the epiphany of egalitarianism. and the U.S. should bomb venezuela because it (and you) doesnt approve of who people ellected there.. really brilliant.. And all this outpouring of contempt because I noted that I preffered egalitarian societies and thought low about rethoric that justifies caste 'stratification' with examples of class opression...Only to admit at the end that your comments have all been offtopic in this section..--[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 09:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::"symbolic defiance to oppression"? By becoming Christians? Look at [[Christianity and anti-Semitism]], [[Christian Fundamentalism]],[[Christian Identity]],[[Aryan Nation]],[[Ku Klux Klan]],[[Spanish Inquisition]],[[Goa Inquisition]],The role of the Catholic Church in the Holocaust. Some "symbol, eh"?[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 09:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
:I fail to understand the relevance of the NLF of Tripur to neobuddhists, who you claimed are a cult of sociopaths and implied in genocides of hindus. I see no mention of them in the article you linked...
:comming from a predominantly christian country, and to cut an irellevant flamebite short, these are not exactly things christianity automaticly simbolises here; different people choose different symbols and understand them differently. --[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 09:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::Caste is not a thing Hinduism automatically symbolizes either, except to [[anti-Hindu]]s.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 09:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
But like I said initially, it is a feature that it cannot be proud of; besides Ambedkar insists on a quite close connection of Hinduism and caste system... This makes it no worse than any other ideology or a belief system of course, all have their problems, but its not a great wonder that those on the recieving end of this inequality feel disgrunted with such a belief system in the first place, instead of being interested in its reform, and I for one cant blame them for this, and your rethoric against this is extreme to put it mildly. But you shifted the topic here which was about role of symbolism and not about what symbolises what; and for those who did convert away from hinduism due to caste there is a link and converting is symbolic of this defiance for them. It makes no differece if you consider this a just connection or not, and if you consider their choice of symbolic defiance good or not, and its not the case they are anti-Hindu because of this anymore than I am anti-Christian for rejecting christianity into which I was born , among other things for its treatement of women and sexual morality. And I dont mind having an occasional hetero-religious symbol around to symbolise this defiance.. --[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 10:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::Neo-Buddhists are part of a pattern that will lead to more NLFT's.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 09:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
:::What is this Neo-Buddhist? Improve your knowledge about India and Indian Buddhist Movement. Hkelkar you are branding Indian [[Buddhist]]s terorrists like NLFT?? This is a serious point and I'll complain to Administrators[[User:Ambedkaritebuddhist|Ambedkaritebuddhist]] 16:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a streched assesment, if there is no direct link--[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 10:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::Bear in mind that I bear no animus against any nationality or people. My disdain for the leadership of Venezuela and North Korea does not extend to the people, who are just people I guess. It's the leadership that is abhorrent, who claim to represent the "freedom of the people" but who, in reality, oppress their own people more than anybody else in the world.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 09:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I have no differing opinion here, though would not call for more wars by the U.S. like you did. But this is all amazingly offtopic. I simply cannot believe I became an advocate of Pol-Pot in your eyes for mentioning the word egalitarian... --[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 10:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
After going through your changes, 'holybrahmin', really, they amount to pure and simple vandalism. the subsentence where you mention the lover caste of Udit Raj is left, however, though I suspect it is meant as an insult, by some bizzare logic. The rest of your edit is, i have no other expression but repugnant in intention, and below standards even for an primary school essay. I have no other way to describe a general claim that lower casts are (inherently) too ignorant to understand Buddhim, a random vandalism stating that Vedas are pure and unsourced claim that some author is (simply) wrong, it seems simply because you (and the Vedas) think so. Nor an unsourced, offtopic and insultive claim that Mayawati is anti-Hindu biased. Really, this couldnt serve anyone to ones credit. Why is it impossible to have an article and lead a discussion on this topic that doesnt degenerate into random namecalling, outbursts of hatered and vandalism??? --[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 16:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::Agree aboiut holybrahmin. Disagree about your inherently racistviews against Hindus.I quote Ambedkar frpm Pakistan and partition of India where he said that Muslim society is clearly full of more social evil than Hindu society
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ambedkar/ambedkar_partition/410.html
[[Anti-Hindu]] attutides above are based more on hate and, I suspect, jealousy over losing jobs etc. to Indians than any legitimate criticism.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 18:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::Hey Holybrahmin larn to source edits and larn about [[WP:NPOV]], [[WP:V]],[[WP:CITE]]. Don't make ethnic attacks against people.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 18:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
::Can we please use this talk page as per [[wikipedia:talk page]] only to discuss improvements to the article? [[User:Andries|Andries]] 20:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
'Disagree about your inherently racistviews against Hindus.' - Id be very suprised if I really were racist against hindus; if this is true, I dont know about it, am sorry about it and hope to stop being a racist. However, evidence pending, I think this is not true, and I dont see how i could be existentially worried about this, being on a different continet (to which I leave my IP to trace if you wish). I admire Indian culture and salute its impressive economic boom. The claim by Ambdekar that muslim society has even more evil frankly doesnt suprise me one bit; like I said, most cultures have their share of misery, but this does not justify any single shape of misery. Im sorry Andries, you are right, this is not productive, but I did feel I had to at least answer a direct accusation of being a racist. --[[User:83.131.150.131|83.131.150.131]] 03:10, 21 October 2006 (UTC) --[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 03:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
::I did not acuse you of being a racist. I said that your views were racist. Racist not in the strict sense of the word but in the more generic meaning ie directed against a particular ethno-cultural group. Perhaps a better term would be "bigoted views". The bigotry largely arises unintentionally out of ignorance rather than malice. I don;t regard you to be a racist since, had you been one, there would be a malicious tone to your posts and that is not the case. There is a clear difference.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 03:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
:::If you must reply to racist remarks then please not here but on the user talk pages. [[User:Andries|Andries]] 07:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
==Some basics about Hindu Religion==
I have gone through the whole discussions on talk page. [[User:Aryah|Aryah]], [[User:Ambedkaritebuddhist|Ambedkaritebuddhist]], [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] and all other users you should understand [[Hindu]] religion its basic is [[Varnashrama dharma]]. It is the bad [[karma]] of past birth that has made somebody as <b>Lower Caste</b>. You can blame GOD for that but please don't write any useless things on this so-called [[Indian Buddhist Movement]]. There are no Buddhists in India. I a upper caste [[Brahmin]] so I proud of it. Is there anything wrong?. There is no any Buddhist Movement. [[User:Holybrahmin|Holybrahmin]] 11:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
For someone that doesnt even exist, those buddhists seem quite vocal :) Even the oficial statistics of buddhist in india report their existance but.. Also, who says its bad karma to be a Dalit? Its potentially very enlightening about the nature of existance :-D But regardless, its quite irellevant what hinduism teaches about rebirth for a purely descriptive, ecyclopedic article about a topic other than hindu rebirth such as this should be. ..But I should know better than to feed the trolls (and I take that [[WP:FAITH]] cannot reffer to this user anymore, given that users vandalisms of this article in the past)--[[User:Aryah|Aryah]] 18:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
::I disagree with Holybrahmin that "there is no Buddhist movement in India". I have personally seen Buddhist pilgrims going to the Holy tree of enlightenement in North India. While it is true that the Buddhist movement is '''weak''', it is not nonexistent. Having said that, I must qualify that the editors POV-pushing in this article are NEO-Buddhists, who are a fringe movement within the larger Indian Buddhist movement and are essentially a cult along the lines of [[scientology]] or [[Jews for Jesus]] in America. Basically they CLAIM to be Buddhists but, in fact, are not. They have a political and cultural agenda behind their activities that has very little to do with normative Buddhism.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 18:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
:::Keep Hindu basics with you only. Don't vandalise [[Buddhist]] Article. [[User:Ambedkaritebuddhist|Ambedkaritebuddhist]] 15:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
==So Buddhism aims to "cross caste barriers", eh?==
:Then how do you explain this:
[[Burakumin#Religious_discrimination_against_burakumin]]
Aniother dirty little secret.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 19:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
::Hkelkar The article is about [[Indian Buddhist Movement]] <b>NOT Japan Buddhist</b>. so why are you bringing Japanese Social issues here? Use <b>Common Sense also and better put your views on Japanese Buddhists related pages</b>. In Indian Buddhists don’t believe any discrimination that is why millions Hindus are converting to Buddhism. See the latest developments. Don't mix the issues. [[User:Ambedkaritebuddhist|Ambedkaritebuddhist]] 16:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
: Not so secret. Japanese Buddhists also supported the persecution of Christians (see [[Martyrs of Japan]]) and Japanese imperialism in the early 20th century. Buddhists have done ugly things in the name of Buddhism. I'm not sure that there's a religion that's not stained with blood. The question is what the religion is doing now -- is it rejecting doctrines that led to misery in the past, or is it insisting on them as essential to the religion? Contemporary Buddhism seems to me to be complicit with the power structure in some countries, sometimes fat, lackadaisical, and superstitious but ... the only part of the world where Buddhists have bloody hands at the moment is Sri Lanka. If Hindus would reject the caste system then it would no longer be a defect in Hinduism and the lower castes wouldn't feel any need to reject a religion that stigmatized them. It makes no sense to criticize them for converting, and only hold out the hope that Hinduism will change "eventually." Change first and THEN see if the dalits still want to leave. Don't criticize people for leaving a burning building. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 08:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
: ..and entering another one?As far as I can tell Hindus have gone through their fair share of reform movements as well (Brahmo Samaj, Arya Samaj, Vivekananda, Vidyasagar etc).You don't see Dalits getting molten metal poured into their eyes like in the 10th century right? Besides, Casteism is a political matter now, not a religious one.Near as I can see only the racist missionaries and mad mullahs try to conflate it with religion as part of an agenda.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 20:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
==Regarding Edits regarding Gail Omvedt==
It was said in an edit by Dhammafriend that Omvedt's view are criticized by Indian Buddhist Leaders, yet she has a page on Ambedkar.org? [[http://www.ambedkar.org/gail/Gail.htm]] and several writings [[http://www.ambedkar.org/gail/]] [[User:Thegreyanomaly|Thegreyanomaly]] 04:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
::Gail's views are on Ambedkar.org then what? Those people have full right to put anything on their site. It is a site handled by few Buddhist Intellectuals. Study how to give respect to Intellectuals views. [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 22:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
==Proposed merger with [[Buddhism in India]]==
[[Buddhism in India]] is a stub, but its purpose is similar to the purpose of this topic. It also links to this topic under the name neo-buddhism. It would seem logical to reformat this entire topic.
We can divide it into four sections Theravada, Vajrayana/Tibetan, Mahayana, and Ambedkarite/Navayana
[[User:Thegreyanomaly|Thegreyanomaly]] 23:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
::Good suggession. I will certainly help for this NOBLE cause. Lower caste people are converting to Buddhism and becoming [[anti-Hindu]] is certainly issue to discuss. These so-called Buddhists neither understand the basics of Hinduism nor Karma Law. Keep figthing for unnecessary reasons. There is no need to convert to Buddhism the lower caset people like [[Dalits]] should concentrate on education and their development by remaining within the larger fold of [[Hinduism]]. The so-called [[Indian Buddhist Movement]] is primarily anti Brahmin and full of hate against upper caste Hindu people. It is better to merge this article with the lower castes are neo-Buddhists this is a right brand for [[anti-Hindu]] people. Also shows their LEVEL which they deserve. All [[Hindu]] Wikipedians please concentrate on this <b>so called</b> [[Indian Buddhist Movement]]. [[User:Holybrahmin|Holybrahmin]] 14:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
:You both Thegreyanomaly and Holybrahmin are playing with the article unnecessary. You can do whatever you want but remember Wikipedia has good policies and they are applicable to everyone. I have read all discussion on this page.Especially Your LANGUAGE. Any unbiased person will understand your views VERY WELL. RFC put by HKelkar is good. I want more unbiased people to come for discussion to know the truth.[[User:Ambedkaritebuddhist|Ambedkaritebuddhist]] 16:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
:::Just to clarify to people. I'm an Indian American, I was born as a Brahmin Hindu. When I was 11 I became an Atheist and non-Hindu. I then became Jain for a year or two a couple years later. In August of 2004 (when I was 15), I became a Theravāda Buddhist. I'm an Indian Buddhist but I am not Ambedkarite/Navayānī. And to Holybrahmin, yes there are Buddhists in India and there are many non-Ambedkarite Buddhists. Go visit Ladakh, Arunachal Pradesh, or any other state on the Indo-Tibetan border
:::[[User:Thegreyanomaly|Thegreyanomaly]] 23:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
:[[User:Thegreyanomaly|Thegreyanomaly]] I never asked who are you? OR Never asked your <b>Caste Brahmin by birth </b> or your own religious enlightments?. For that you can write on your own Page. Take care while writings on [[Buddhist]] related articles. Wiki Administratotrs please take note of such explanations and the activities of such users. [[User:Ambedkaritebuddhist|Ambedkaritebuddhist]] 08:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
::The generous and pratical attitude shown by Thegreyanomaly is good and others should have the same. It is better to call these ambedkarites hooligans or so-called Indian Buddhist as Lower Castes Or Dalits only. Brahmin is upper caste and learn to give respect to Brahmin views.[[User:Holybrahmin|Holybrahmin]] 09:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
:: I would call this derogative speech, sorry, if you wish to call 10,000,000 people hooligans you sound pretty arrogant to say the least. [[User:Rudyh01|rudy]] 19:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
::There are 10 million Neo-Buddhists?Hardly.Quite a few Buddhists but fewer of the Neo-Buddhist cult.However, I disapprove of Holybrahmins Casteist perorations regarding "Lower Caste" and "Dalits" and what not and distance myself from them.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 19:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
::I am extremely troubled by Holybrahmins comments and hope that he investigates his prejudices introspectively on this matter.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 20:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
:[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] and [[User:Holybrahmin|Holybrahmin]] you both young boys dont give your unsourced sugesstions give some FACTS. What is neo-Buddhist population? Where do we find details about their population? Because now-a-days in USA/Europe and India many people are converting to [[Buddhism]] because of its Prajna (Understanding), Love and Peace loving nature. But all these people are called as [[Buddhist]] in their respective country. There are philosohpically different schools but the Buddhist world is Buddhist.About India before making any comment please go through the <b>OFFICIAL INDIAN GOVERNMENT DATA</b> about [[Buddhist]] population in India. [http://www.censusindia.net/religiondata/index.html Census of India 2001 DATA ON RELIGION] Accept legal things only. Wikipedia believes in FACTS! Brush up bacis knowledge about Buddhist Population in India and also growing numbers. MY COUNTRY INDIA counts population [[Hindu]]s, [[Muslim]]s, [[Christian]]s, [[Sikh]]s, [[Buddhist]]s, [[Jain]]s few other religions also but not neo-Buddhists. Where are these people? There is also another category known as [[Scheduled Castes/Scheduled Tribes]] who constitutes approx. 25% population of whole India. These SC/ST majority illeterate very poor, oppressed people are branded as [[Hindu]]s! Some of these SC/ST people are Ambedkarites but they are also [[Hindu]]s. <b>SC/STs are NOT called as [[Buddhist]]s!!</b> That is why [[Buddhist]] population in India is only around 0.8% or less. But it is continuously growing because of religious conversions such as 14th Oct. 2006 events. MY COUNTRY INDIA gives details about [[Buddhist]] in India. Brush up your knowledge about Buddhist Movement and Population in India then write. Your inputs with FACTS and official, proper references are always welcome. [[User:Ambedkaritebuddhist|Ambedkaritebuddhist]] 08:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
==HKelkar, Thegreyanomaly, Holybrahmin and Aryah, Dhammafriend, Yeditor have proper discussion==
Dear all, [[User:HKelkar|HKelkar]], [[User:Thegreyanomaly|Thegreyanomaly]] and [[User:Holybrahmin|Holybrahmin]] you people take care while writing on this article. I have read all comments and discussion. Don't vandalise. HKelkar you have removed warnings with proof and link which I put on your talk page. HKelkar even equated poor Indain [[Buddhist]]s with NLFT. I'll surely take action against it. Thegreyanomaly you also reverted article to Holybrahim changes. All of you working together against [[Buddhist]]s. Your language is prejudiced against Buddhists. Reverts without discussion are common from you.
Now [[User:Aryah|Aryah]], [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] and [[User:Yeditor|Yeditor]] you have add information with more right link and proofs. Debate in a civilized manner. Don't be too aggressive agaisnt Hinduism. Its better to concentrate to make the the article more informative and useful . Watch the Language and Word used by all above users and complain Administrators. Especiall read their Talk Pages. If they revert their talk pages let them do. Also ask for proofs for all Hindu related articles and FACTS for their comments especially [[anti-Hindu]] article ! <b>RFC</b> Put by HKelkar is pending so don't vandalise and get more unbiased people for discussion.
[[User:Ambedkaritebuddhist|Ambedkaritebuddhist]] 16:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
==Stop the Bigotry==
Reading this discussion page, I am seeing inflamatory and bigoted rhetoric against both Hindus and Buddhists. Wikipeida articles are supposed to be NPOV. So don't take partisan positions. Just report the facts that you have good citations for, and do it in a neutral manner.[[User:HeBhagawan|HeBhagawan]] 01:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, while Ambhedkar is certainly an important figure, the article should not be about his movement alone. There are other Buddhists in India, as others have noted. I support combining this article with Buddhism in India. [[User:HeBhagawan|HeBhagawan]] 01:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
::Yes you are correct.Somebody needs to keep the whack-jobs on both sides in check. It is truly a very sad thing that the bigotry comes from both sides, extremist Neo-Buddhist thugs and extremely Brahmanno-supremacist kooks. Neither of them are helping here.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 01:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I have noticed some especially blatant POV edits by HolyBrahmin. Others may have done the same, but I am just looking at recent edits for now.[[User:HeBhagawan|HeBhagawan]] 01:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
== Response to RFC ==
I have spent the last 4 hours reading this discussion, as well as reading and the article itself and its subsequent links. In order to improve the article and bring the focus of the discussion back to improvements of it, I will provide my analysis of the issues and problems I've found. I'm writing as a person totally new to the topic, of reasonable intelligence and objectivity.
Before I do that, I would first like to state that I am completely opposed to the article "Buddhism in India" being merged with this one. Buddhism is a world religion, and the movement that is described here is only a sect within Buddhism. It's adherence to Dr. Ambedkar's 22 vows differentiates it completely from all other sects of Buddhism. There should be a different article about Buddhism in India, and it should be expanded to include all sects of Buddhism being practiced in India (even if very small) - not just this one. I looked at Buddhanet's directory of Buddhist organizations in India and found no less than 45 (http://www.buddhanet.net/asia_dir/abc_i.htm). There is actually material in this article that I feel should be brought to "Buddhism in India" that I mention below.
"(Pāli नवयान navayāna as dubbed by Ambedkerites)"
One woman, albeit a supporter of this movement, has proposed the use of the word navayana to describe it. However, the word in Wikipedia redirects to this article, even though a googling of the word leads to the publishing house and to the website of a completely different group (ttp://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/navayana.html). I don't feel that this redirect is appropriate, as it probably should be used to describe the publishing house in Wikipedia. Further, if only one person describes this movement as navayana, then it should be removed. Also, the use of the phrase "Ambedkerites" is unecessary and somewhat pejorative.
"Thinkers such as Iyothee Thass, Brahmananda Reddy, and Dharmananda Kosambi began to discuss it in very favourable terms." It would make this article more useful if the person who wrote this would start working on informative articles about these three people, if they are indeed notable. If they are not notable, then I suggest this sentence be removed.
"He took the three refuges and five precepts from a Buddhist monk in the traditional manner and then in his turn administered them to the 380,000 of his followers that were present." The monk is identified as Bhadant U. Chandramani in the following paragraph - please identify him here. The number 380,000 contradicts the number 500,000 mentioned earlier in the article, and both numbers seem awfully high without any cited sources. If a source can't be found, then no number should be mentioned at all. Instead, "many followers" can be used. Also, it would be great if some background as to how these followers became followers (classes? rallies? was there a newspaper? how did the word get out?) could be added and sourced.
"After receiving ordination from Buddhist monk Bhadant U. Chandramani, On 14th October 1956 at Nagpur, Dr. B. R. Ambedkar gave Dhamma Diksha to his followers." What school or sect of Buddhism did Bhadant U. Chandramani come from? It would be very helpful in understanding this movement if that would be included. Also, I couldn't find a definition of Dhamma Diksha anywhere. Could this please be defined?
"On 16th October 1956 he repeated another mass religious conversion ceremony at Chanda where he gave only 22 vows to all the people gathered there" Did Dr. Ambedkar write the vows? If so, it should be stated. It has been said in discussion that the vows themselves should be sourced. This would be very easy to do and would end that particular controversy.
"These 22 vows make clear Ambedkar's rejection of Hinduism and his embracing of Buddhism. The vows serve to separate the Buddhist community from the Hindu community." These are essay statements, not encyclopedic fact. They could be replaced with a sourced quote from Dr. Ambedkar saying roughly the same thing -in any case, they should be removed.
"On several occasions, when Buddhist leaders such as Udit Raj (who converted from his Hindu lower caste), have recited these statements in public, Hindu audiences have objected on the grounds that they believed the declarations to be anti-Hindu." This absolutely has to be sourced, and probably described in better detail - if there are several occasions it would be better to list the major ones individually. Udit Raj needs to be linked in this sentence.
"Hindu critics have argued that these efforts to convert Hindus to Ambedkarite Buddhism are political stunts rather than sincere commitments to social reform[4]." This statement is sourced by one article. A statement such as this -
"The November 18, 2001 edition of The Week, a large weekly magazine in India, was highly critical of Udit Raj, calling into question his motives for converting Indians to Buddhism." - and then sourcing the article would be more factual and objective.
"Bodhisattva Dr. Ambedkar and 2006 Mass Conversions"
This segment should just be called 2006 Mass Conversions, as there is no mention of Dr. Ambedkar in the body itself. If Dr. Ambedkar is believed to be a Boddhisatva by his followers, then a statement to that effect should be made. "Boddhisattva Dr. Ambedkar" is simply not factual, and the honorific should be removed. 2006 Mass Conversions should not be linked to an outside website.
"The Golden Jubilee or Dikshabhumi (celebrated on both October 2 and October 14, 2006 on different calendars) is an important milestone in the Indian Buddhist Movement. In recognition of the fiftieth anniversary, a number of people have converted to Buddhism." These sentences aren't very clear. A better statement might be: "October 2 and October 14, 2006, mark the 50th anniversary of Dr. Ambedkar and his subsequent conversion of initial followers. These dates are called Dikshabhumi, or The Golden Jubilee." The statement that a number of people have converted to Buddhism needs to be clarified. Specific,sourced, events should be described to replace this sentence.
"The Indian Buddhist community has strongly protested the religious conversion law." This statement needs to be sourced. It would be great if "the religious conversion law" could either be described or linked to a wikipedia article that elucidates this. Actually, a distinct Wikipedia article just on this law would be great. Furthermore, I feel this sentence is a bit out of place and needs to go in it's own section and expounded upon. After reading the Guardian UK article, it would seem to be a pretty big deal.
"The International Buddhist Media is giving a lot of publicity to Indian Buddhist Movement." International Buddhist Media should not be linked to an outside website. Also, one website doesn't not "a lot of publicity" make. Really, the sentence is not encyclopedic, not germaine to the 2006 conversions, and should be replaced with a sourced statement like "the publications x and x covered the (as yet to be described) 2006 mass conversion events."
"Hyderabad mass Conversion"
This section described a mass conversion that took place on October 14 of this year, and therefore should go under 2006 Mass Conversions. It would also be helpful if Hyderabad were linked to Wikipedia article that describes it (I had no idea what it was).
"In response, Hindu nationalists have asserted that Dalits should concentrate on illiteracy and poverty rather than looking for new religions. They think that there are very few differences between Buddhism and Hinduism[5]." This statement should go in the controversies section. Dalit should be defined.
Ambedkar's Buddhism seemingly differs ... really possible within the framework of Buddhism?[1]" This is sourced to Gail Omvedt's book, but who actually said it? Can this quote please be assigned to an author?
"Majority Indian Buddhists espouse an eclectic version of Buddhism..." The author of this paragraph needs to source the entire thing. Also, this entire segment could be titled "Conversion, Theory, and Practice", along with some more information.
"Conversely, many orthodox Buddhists are uncomfortable with some of the liberties Ambedkar took in re-fashioning the four noble truths to have a direct social message." This needs to be sourced, and when sourced put into the controversies segment.
Buddhism in India after Ambedkar
The segment does not adequately describe what happened with Dr. Ambedkar's followers from 1956 to today. The purpose of this segment is unclear.
"According to the 2001 census, there are currently 7.95 million Buddhists in India i.e.0.8 % of total population of India[3], at least 5.83 million of whom are Buddhists in Maharashtra[3]. This makes Buddhism the fifth-largest religion in India and 6% of the population of Maharashtra, but less than 1% of the overall population of India." These statistics can not be used to accurately gauge the number of Dr. Ambedkar's followers. Every single documented Buddhist in India is not a follower of Dr. Ambedkar or has taken the 22 vows. These statistics should be removed and placed in the article "Buddhism in India". If the followers of Dr. Ambedkar have internal numbers, they can be used.
" The Tamil Nadu and Gujarat governments passed new laws in 2003 to ban "forced" religious conversions which were later withdrawn due to heavy opposition[citation needed]." This statement needs to be sourced and placed in the controversies section. A clear, connection between these laws and the followers Dr. Ambedkar's followers needs to be explained. If there isn't one, the sentence needs to be removed.
"Buddhist Movement Crossing Hindu Caste Barriers"
the text that follows this heading doesn't support the heading. Furthermore, the heading itself is not objective and should be scrapped altogether.
"Over the last 50 years several thousand people from different castes have converted to Buddhism." This statement must be sourced and placed in the "Buddhism in India after Ambedkar" segment.
"The conversion ceremony is done with Trisarana, PanchSheela and 22 vows." A definition of Trisarana and PanchSheela needs to be given. Ideally, this sentence would be placed in a segment entitled "Conversion, Theory, and Practice", along with the segment currently entitled "Distinctive interpretation".
"The Buddhist community is trying to create their own identity different from their Hindu couterparts." This sentence is an essay statement rather than a statement of fact and should be removed. It could be replaced with a quote that says the same thing from a prominent leader in this movement.
"Hundreds converted to Buddhism in ceremonies on October 2, 2006. Furthermore, on 14th October 2006 hundreds of people converted from Hinduism to Buddhism in Gulburga in Karnatak State." These statement needs to be sourced and placed in the 2006 Mass Conversion segment. "Gulburga in Karnatak State" should not link to an outside website.
"Visionaries of 'Post-Ambedkar' era"
The word "visionaries" is not formal or factual and needs to be replaced with something else. As I am not sure what the thrust of this segment is, I couldn't recommend a substitute - perhaps "supporters"?
"Bhadant Nagarjun Surai Sasai"
The entire passage is not encyclopedic in tone. It should also conform to Wikipedia's policy on Biographies of Living Persons. This statement - "It is said that he claims to be a reincarnation of the Sinhalese Buddhist leader and champion of Bodh Gaya, Anagarika Dharmapala." is against the aforementioned policy and must be removed.
"S. N. Goenka"
There seems to be no connection between this person and Dr. Abedkar or his followers. This passage should be removed and placed in Buddhism in India.
"Buddha not an Avatar of Vishnu communique"
While this passage should be sourced, the Heading should not directly link to an outside website. The two people engaging in the dialogue that is described here don't appear to have anything to do with the Indian Buddhist Movement. I don't understand why this dialogue is in this article.
"Buddhists in India & International Audience"
This entire segement needs to be moved to the "Buddhist in India" article. None of these groups appear to have any connection with the Indian Buddhist Movement as it is described in the first paragraphs of this article.
"Similar neo-Buddhism in Sri Lanka"
This segment is unsourced, and the connection to the Indian Buddhist Movement is unclear. Unless a clear connection or comparison to the Indian Buddhist Movement can be made, it should be removed.
In conclusion, I find the title of this article problematic. While it's probably too late to turn back, who actually coined this phrase? I find it very general, when the article is essentially about one specific sect. Do the followers of Dr. Ambedkar not have a name for themselves? Is there not some kind of named organization for them?
I also have some questions which would ideally be answered in the previously proposed "Conversion, Theory, and Practice" segment. Do the followers of Dr. Adbedkar have a daily practice? Do they have a scripture or scriptures that they study? Are there faith meetings or gatherings? Are there objects of worship?
I also found a couple of things in my research that I would nominate for inclusion in the controversy section, but I'll leave that for now.
The entire article needs to be corrected for grammar and typos, but since I've written this lengthy and possibly controversial analysis, I've refrained from proofreading it myself. I've taken an additional 3 hours to write this, so I would ask that you please consider it thoughtfully and carefully, then act accordingly.
I hope to help in and see a great article soon!
Sincerely,
[[User:NinzEliza|NinzEliza]] 07:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
:Thanks very much for your comments, NinzEliza. I have read them over and have also made some edits to the article. A few comments. First of all, I wrote the original form of this article back in April, 2004. We had much laxer practical standards for sourcing information then; this should be remedied, but it doesn't necessarily require anything radical. The figure "380,000 followers" comes from Sangharakshita's ''Buddhism and Ambedkar'', and I believe it's reliable. When I wrote the intro, originally, it said "nearly 400,000" followers, which is correct. Someone apparently changed it to 500,000, probably not for any good reason, either.
:As for " Iyothee Thass, Brahmananda Reddy, and Dharmananda Kosambi", I think they were influential Indian writers, but I have to admit I'm not terribly sure any more. I don't see the point of removing them from the article unless somebody who knows about 19th/early 20th century Indian writers wants to do it.
:As for the total number of Buddhists in India, part of the reason for including these numbers is to show revivalist Buddhism in the context of Indian Buddhism as a whole, and to show the impact of the former on the latter. I believe that virtually all of the Buddhists in Maharashtra are untouchable revivalists, although without a specific source for that opinion, you are right to treat it with skepticism.
:Regarding Goenka, it's not clear to me that this article is supposed to be about the Ambedkarite movement specifically. Perhaps it should be about the general phenomenon of Indian people converting to Buddhism in the 20th century. Goenka is certainly relevant to that.
:On the "International audience" section, you are right that the Japanese and Taiwanese connections don't seem to have anything to do with Ambedkar or the revival, except that the Taiwan-linked ordination ceremony for women involved some revivalist Buddhist nuns. The British, on the other hand, have always worked quite closely with the Ambedkarites.
:You have made some very good points about some historical and practice-related information about Ambedkarite Buddhism that is missing from the article. The simple reason for this is that this information was not available to me when I wrote the article. My sources were numerous websites and one book I've read on the subject. I'm not saying this is the ''only'' book ever published about it, but lord knows there are not a whole lot of them. Looking at Amazon, it appears that ''Reconstructing the World: B. R. Ambedkar and Buddhism in India'' (2004) is the big source we're missing. I would be very interested to read whatever further information anyone can find about this Buddhist tradition.
:I'm glad you agree with me that [[Indian Buddhist Movement]] is not a good title for this article. It has now been moved to [[Indian Buddhist revival]], which is better. I am not aware of any general term which Ambedkarites use for themselves. They are Buddhists and they are Dalits, so they are Dalit Buddhists, but I don't think this applies exclusively to the Ambedkarite movement.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 04:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
----
::Regarding Udit Raj, you wil see in his article that HAF has alleged that he is an anti-Hindu based on these activities.Plus, the-week article shows that his disparaging of Hindu beliefs earned him a hostile reaction at least once.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 07:47, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
::Regarding your post, I have made some corrections per your suggestions.However, I point out that "The Week" fully satisfies [[WP:RS]] so it may be used as a secondary/tertiary source and so it is not necessary to state "According to The Week" in the article.07:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
::See the latest updates Mr. HKelkar. The Week link is 2001 year News .. see current and latest updates [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 19:35, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Also give logical difiniton of a Hindu before branding somebody as anti-Hindu. You are claimed to be JEW and most of the articles attacking are Buddhist. Why? What problem do we have with Budhists? [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 19:35, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
==Vandalism of [[Indian Buddhist Movement]] about Kherlanji Buddhist family Massacred==
:HKelkar is reverting article using popups so have discussion before reverting SOURCED information. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indian_Buddhist_Movement&diff=85711142&oldid=85708265 Kherlanji Buddhist family Massacred]
[[Image:Stop hand.svg|left|30px]] Welcome to Wikipedia. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. Take a look at the [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome page]] if you would like to learn more about contributing. However, unconstructive edits are considered [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]], and if you continue in this manner you may be '''[[Wikipedia:blocking policy|blocked]] from editing without further warning'''. Please stop, and consider improving rather than damaging the work of others. Thank you. <!-- Template:Blatantvandal (serious warning) --> [[User:Dhammafriend|Dhammafriend]] 15:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Dhammafriend, I have read the article and it is truly a horrible, horrible event. Jews, Muslims, and Early Christians have also met with unspeakable violence for their religious beliefs. While this article describes a truly terrible crime, the murder of a four people is not the definition of, say, a holocaust.
In any event, I would really appreciate it if you addressed at least some of the issues I have raised in my above post. I was hoping I wouldn't have to come right out and say this, but the article is seriously flawed as it stands right now. You and HKelkar, who are the most active editors on this page, have not addressed this at all. This is an article on a new sect of Buddhism, and it needs have something in it about the beliefs of it's practitioners, their object or objects of worship, their scripture, and their daily practice. These are just some of the largest flaws in this article. Would you please address the issues I raised? Thank you! [[User:NinzEliza|NinzEliza]] 04:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
::I've been trying to do as you suggest, but Dhammafriend and his sockpuppets keep revert-warring and vandalizing.I am doing my level best to keep it neutral and unbiased. Please continue with your suggestions. I value them greatly.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 05:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
==My Response to the RfC as [[User talk: Thegreyanomaly|requested]]==
I strongly believe in the destruction of this article. Its basis of existence was trampled on the moment it was renamed from Neo-Buddhism. As far as my knowledge goes the only Buddhist movements within in India are Ambedkarite. Ambedkarites form their own school of thought. They do not fit within the old schools. They are a 'New Vehicle'. They are Navayāna as Gail Omvedt and others have name them. At the moment I feel the article should be disintegrated and merged with [[Buddhism in India]]. I really do not have much to say, but I no longer want to be associated to this article as long as people who fit on to an extreme like Dhammafriend or Holybrahmin have access to it.
[[User:Thegreyanomaly|Thegreyanomaly]] 06:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
==My Response to the RfC for [[Indian Buddhist Movement]]==
The article gives interesting and valuable information about [[Buddhist]]s in India. Even tough Buddhism is from India we are surprised to know that the Buddhists are finished in India and only less than 1% are there. It is good to know that somebody is putting efforts for Buddhist Movement. The article is valuable and the people who are against [[Buddhist]]s or Buddhist Movments can write comments with references. My [[Buddhist]] friends in different countries were surprised when I showed them this article. Be a positive contributor dont be a destructive. Anagarik Dhammapala is one of the key buddhist monk from Shrilanka who revived Buddhism. [[User:Shrilankabuddhist|Shrilankabuddhist]] 15:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
==Vandalism by anti-Buddhist elements==
Hello, Our shrilankan Buddhist Monks are playing a great role in reviving Buddhism in India. 2006 thousands of oppressed caste Hindus are converting to Buddhism. Don't revert sourced edits otherwise all anti-Buddhist will have to face action [[User:Shrilankabuddhist|Shrilankabuddhist]] 14:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
==Hi Shrilankbuddhist==
If you scroll up on the talk page for Indian Buddhist Movement, you'll find that I have made a complete analysis of this article with several suggestions. Would you care to comment on them, or provide further information in response to my suggestions! Any input would be greatly appreciated.
I'm want to buy a book or two on this topic so that I can help improve this article. Are there any books that you would recommend on this [http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/2RN9JSAFDDLRX/ref=lst_llp_wl-go/103-3485803-9298234/list]?
In the article that you are trying to include in the Indian Buddhist Movement article, it says 300,000 people. That is three hundred thousand, not three million. Furthermore, I have found no other article that makes the same assertion. In fact, the Times of India stated 30 people in it's article covering the same event.
I understand that number is probably wrong. Can you provide an article from a source that doesn't have "Buddhism" or "Buddha" in the title of the reporting organization? I think that would meet with less criticism.
It's an unfortunate reality that critics of this article will not let you move foward if you don't provide sources that are absolutely above reproach. I am no such critic. I genuinely wish to help you improve the information about this important and notable topic.
::This article is related to [[Buddhist]] so information regarding Buddhist Activites is given. If you want to put non-Buddhist information then you can create new articles. [[User:Shrilankabuddhist|Shrilankabuddhist]] 12:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
::Looks like he has trouble understanding the idea of non-partisan [[WP:Reliable Sources]].[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 12:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
::By Srilankabuddhist's logic I am allowed to cite [http://www.tamilnation.org/tamileelam/fundamentalism/hindutemples.htm this] into the article as well. [[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 12:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
:::As a [[Buddhist]] I will accept unbiased views. You can add the above link in the Buddhist article [[Sri Lankan Buddhism]]. We are not like [[Hindus]] who belived in [[Caste System]] and try to potray their religion as best with [[Dalit]] problem and intruders like [[Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam]]. These Hindus organizations have destroyed peace in our Nation. All Hindus here should not destroy Buddhist Articles. Londan, Berlin and even Indian many Buddhist Viharas are controlled by Shrilankan Buddhist Monks. You can write anything related to [[Buddhist]] and Buddhism all over world. We accept good and bad things you should also accept both things.[[User:Shrilankabuddhist|Shrilankabuddhist]] 17:46, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
::::See [[WP:TROLL]] and [[Racism]].[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 05:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
== RfC reply ==
This article has nothing to do with the religion of Buddhism. Its something to do with Indian politics and political events. This article can at best be deleted without further ado. Its a waste of server space. Its contents are not encyclopediac. See [[WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox]] <span class="sigSrkris" style="background:gold;color:#FF0000"><big>ॐ</big> [[User:Srkris|Kris]] ([[User_talk:Srkris |☎ talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/srkris|contribs]])</span> 22:03, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
:wtf@? Even if this article is about Indian politics, why should it be deleted?&mdash[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup>
I agree with Kris's proposal. The good stuff from this article should be merged with [[Buddhism in India]] (perhaps a short section there titled "Indian Buddhist revival") and this woeful article should be scrapped. [[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 23:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
==Response to "Response"==
I was hoping to not have to say the following because I didn't want to offend any editor who happens to follow Buddhism, but I have to make this plain.
Whether it's a genuine religious movement or a socio-political protest using Buddhism in name only is immaterial.
If it's a genuine religious movement, I'm in favor of it being moved to Buddhism in India (though I think it should be named Buddhism in ''Contemporary'' India to make the subject clearer).
If it's a socio-political protest of the Indian caste system, then it's even ''more'' important that it be it's own article. If the article is deleted, then the information should be moved to Indian Caste System, ''at the very least''. There's also an argument to be made for adding it to Hinduism, Dalit, etc.
It's definitely encyclopedic[[http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/ref=yourlists_pop_1/103-3485803-9298234]]. There's not a single book on this list in preceding link that's older than 1990. The most recent is 2005. Furthermore, this book doesn't include the one I found on the Border's website, or the book that's coming out (''specifically about this phenomenon'') in February of 2007.
[[User:NinaEliza|NinaEliza]] 00:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
::Er, madam, your amazon link does not seem to point to anything relevant. Are you sure it's a hardlink? In the absense of any reliable information to the contrary, the article is unencyclopedic.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 00:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
:::The link works just fine. I invite anyone to try it. For example, one of the five books listed is entitled "Revival of Buddhism in Modern India". It was first published in 1995, and it's ISBN number is 8170246806. That's ''one''.
It's interesting to note that the date of this book actually implies that this revival/movement ''has been around for more than a decade''. It's also interesting to note that another book ("Orient: Change in Asian Societies" by Aat Vervoorn) ''cites this book''.
If anyone else has problems with this link, then I would be happy to type up the entire list with ISBN numbers, along with the introductions (well the ones that are printed on Amazon, anyway), on this page.[[User:NinaEliza|NinaEliza]] 01:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
::Please do that. I can't see anything of note in the link. If you type in the book names, then I can look them up in the library and read them.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 01:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
::Oh, and by the way, just becasue there are books with nice pretty ISBN numbers means little, particularly given that the guy who wrote the "Revival" book is some dude named L.Kenadi, a man with no scholastic background near as I can tell. Plus, the Neo-Buddhists cite him as a reference together with VT Rajshekhar [http://www.ambedkar.org/Babasaheb/Books_on_Babasaheb.htm]. Now Rajshekhar is regarded as an [[anti-semite]] by the following authoritative work:
last = Poliakov
first = Léon
authorlink = Léon Poliakov
title = Histoire de l’antisémitisme 1945-93 (P.395)
publisher = Paris
date = 1994
Could you cite something a bit more authoritative than this "L.Kenadi" guy? Perhaps something from an academic paper like a peer-reviewed journal, or a text published by a reputable scholar. Thanks. [[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 01:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
:::I'm sorry - it turns out that the above link goes to the Amazon wish list of the user who clicks on it, and not my own. I'm removing the link to avoid confusion. I appreciate the correction and I'm sorry the misunderstanding. Here's the list:
* '''Revival of Buddhism in Modern India''' (Hardcover)
**Written by L Kanadi
**Published by Ashish Publishing House,First Edition 1995
**ISBN: 8170246806
*'''Reconstructing the World: B. R. Ambedkar and Buddhism in India''' (Hardcover)
**by Surendra Jondhale (Editor), Johannes Beltz (Editor)
**Published by Oxford University Press, USA (February 12, 2004)
**ISBN: 0195665295
*'''Ambedkar on Buddhist Conversion & Its Impact''' (Hardcover)
**Written by Sanghasen Singh
**Publisher: South Asia Books (December 1990)
**ISBN: 0836428250
*'''Dr. Ambedkar towards Buddhism'''(Unknown Binding)
**Written by M. G Chitkara
**Published by APH Pub. Corp (1997)
**ISBN: 8170248574
*'''Ambedkar and Buddhism''' (Paperback)
**Written by S. Sangharakshita
**Published by Motilal Banarsidass (2005)
**ISBN: 8120830237
That's what I found - but I couldn't find the book I mention from Borders again. If I find it, I'll put it here or on your talk page. Whichever you prefer. The same goes for the ISBN number of the new book. The clerk told me that it's simply titled "Ambedkar", but I can't find it.
I sincerely hope this helps.
[[User:NinaEliza|NinaEliza]] 01:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
::Thank you for doing this.Here's what I have uncovered:
#The Jondhane and Beltz book looks good. Bear in mind that they mention the term "Neo-Buddhist" frequently from what I can gett online.I'll try to get the book from the library
#Sanghasen Singh seems like a notable academic with publications in the Indo-Iranian journal.I don;t know if it's the same s singh or not right now, but will look it up
#There isn't a single peer reviewed publication by MG Chitkara, whoever he is. I'm disinclined to regard him as authoritative
#This Sangharakshita guy is completely immaterial. The only claim to fame on his part is that he "knew Ambedkar personally" (from the book jacket). Well, so did Ambedkar's wife. Big deal. He isn't authoritative except if qualified that he claims to speak for Ambedkar.
Anyhow it seems that I will have my work cut out for me next week when I get as many of these books as I can.[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 02:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
::I can get the Beltz book in a couple of days. The Sanghasen book is checked out and it will take some time for me to get my hands on it.
::What I want you to do is explain to me how these books indicate that the Neo-Buddhist movement merits it's own article (as opposed to an appropriately sized section of [[Buddhism in India]]). [[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 03:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Actually, it's Dr. Beltz[[http://www.indologie.unizh.ch/extern/Beltz_CV.pdf]], and I wasn't able to find the mention of the term "neo-buddhist". Could give me a link? I've got a couple more sources as well. I'll post them here in a minute.[[User:NinaEliza|NinaEliza]] 03:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
::::I should also point out that the book in question is a collection of fifteen essays ''edited'' by Mr. Johande and Dr. Beltz. One of them is entitled "The Navayana Creation of the Buddha Image", so perhaps that's what you're referring to. To view the rest of the titles, I think this link works:[[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195665295/ref=wl_it_dp/103-3485803-9298234?ie=UTF8&coliid=I15P0AUSM2CUOI&colid=2RN9JSAFDDLRX]].
In response to your other question, I've thought about it, and considered the information that's currently available to me. I'm leaning heavily towards the idea that this is indeed a form of socio-political protest, and it should be more appropriately included in other articles related to India (such as [[Indian Caste System]], [[Hinduism]], [[Anti-Hindu]] [great job on that article, by the way:)], etc.). Perhaps [[Wikipedia:WikiProject India|WikiProject India]] could help out or weigh in. I would be happy to contact them, if you don't mind.
I appreciate your hard work in investigating these titles - good job! I would however, like to point out that the actual Wikipedia policy on sources for articles does not prohibit non-scholarly texts. In fact, they don't even have to be true, just verifiable.
Verifiablity is defined as something that is not self-published, or sources that don't have a good reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking. I think one would have to actually have the book and see it's references before doing that. If a non self-published book relates a first person experience, that would be valuable indeed to a scholar such as yourself, because it would be considered a [[primary source]]. Here's an example of one:
*'''Jai Bhim!'''(Paperback)
**Written by Pilchick, Terry
**Published by Greensleeves Books, UK (1988[!])
**ISBN: 0904766365
**<blockquote>"Description: vg. 1988 240pp. The author lived & travelled with Ambedkar's followers, India's untouchables, who converted to Buddhism. He describes his experiences in this entertaining & colourful book." </blockquote>
Here's the link if anyone wants it:[[http://www.alibris.com/search/detail.cfm?chunk=25&mtype=&wtopic=ambedkar&qwork=9017627&S=R&bid=8666104158&pbest=5%2E95&pqtynew=4&pbestnew=8%2E72&page=1&matches=10&qsort=r]](The book isn't at Amazon, it's at Alibris. It's also at eCampus.com, so you that bodes well for you being able to find it at or near your school, Hkelkar.) In any event, you've been editing at Wikipedia a lot longer than I have Hkelkar, so I'm sure you already know these things. You were just stating ''your opinion'' of these sources, which I understand. You may very well have a higher standard for your own research, which is commendable.
I just wanted to point out to other editors who wish to help that these are suitable sources, should they want to include them in their additions. [[User:NinaEliza|NinaEliza]] 05:02, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
::Interesting that editors argue the exact opposite of what you said whenever I cite references like yours in Hinduism related articles. I suggest you read [[WP:RS]] carefully. Peer-reviewed publications and academically notable publications are always preferable to others. A lot of "books" can be found that subscribe to partisan and often even extremist views (like [[David Duke]]'s "My awakening", for instance, which is published widely and circulated widely). That doesn't mean it can be cited as factual truth (except when citing as Duke's opinions, of course).My contention is that those writers above who are declared Neo-Buddhists must be treated with extreme caution, given their partisan and often extremist views. However, those writers who are accredited scholars in the relevant disciplines are all right. We must avoid lazy intellectual relativism and avoid bigoted obscurantism masked as scholarly writings, such as the poisonous ramblings of Kancha Ilaiah, VT Rajshekhar and their likes whose delusional ravings are worshipped by Ambedkarites with glee. To that end, I propose that we only regard those references as reliable who meet a very strict litmus test for scholastic legitimacy.Only then can we build solid article or section that is free of political,ethnic or religious biases. This is something that some of the Neo-Buddhist whackos don't want done (of course, based on the equally demented ramblings of that Holybrahmin guy above, many Hindus don't seem to get it either). [[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 05:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Oh, and also, [[WP:V]] says that self-published sources are not reliable as legit sources. That does not automatically imply that non-self published sources are all reliable. See the difference?[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 05:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
::::Oh, and you are right about primary sources, but we also have to investigate as to whether the subject is notable enough to warrant a mention here. There are lots of Neo-Buddhists who have written lots of things (mostly gibberish). We have to choose the important ones that are less "gibberishy" than their usual polemic. [[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 05:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry you feel that way, Hkelkar. I guess we have some differences of opinion about verifiability, and we need to ask an admin to help us out. I'll try and find one. I didn't realize that all of the writers of these books were neo-buddhist, except for '''Reconstructing the World: B. R. Ambedkar and Buddhism in India'''.
The other authors all have non-Western names, so perhaps they are indeed Neo-Buddhists. Is there some indicator in their names, like they sometimes do in Japan? Forgive my ignorance on this matter - I'm not as familiar with the language and culture of India as you are:).
I don't think Terry Pilchik (author of '''Jai Bhim!'''), is Neo-Buddhist, but again I could be wrong. Wouldn't he be notable for the fact that he wrote a book? I'll try to do some research on him if that's not satisfactory.
I'm again, I'm disappointed. I left a message on your talk page before I saw your response above. I hope when you read it, you'll see that I want to work ''with'' you, and not against you.
::Well I don't know about this Pilchik guy so I'll have to look him up, of course. In the interests of good faith, I'll assume for now that he's alright. I never said that "all the writers were Neo-Buddhists". I showed evidence that some of them were (well, Sangharakshita anyways), and that we should take their writings with a grain of salt.This should be a test for any reference cited here. Anyone who claims to subscribe to Ambedkarite Neo-Buddhism (rather than just provide a dispassionate recounting of it) is suspect of partisanship and tomfoolery as far as I can see. Any accredited scholar with peer-reviewed publications, academic tenure, or whatever is legitimate, even if he's a Neo-Buddhist (fortunately the chances of both being true is highly unlikely).[[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 06:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
:::It's unclear to me what point you're arguing here, Hkelkar. The Indian Buddhist revival is obviously of encyclopedic interest, and the existence NinaEliza's books demonstrates this. Whether the books provide accurate or impartial information about the Ambedkarite movement is a different subject. We have to deal with that on a case-by-case basis. Incidentally, I don't know about those other people, but [[Sangharakshita]] is not a "Neo-Buddhist", he's an Englishman who doesn't fit into the categories of modern Indian Buddhism. See [[Friends of the Western Buddhist Order]].—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 20:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
::For us Buddhist is a Buddhist. The Hindu users should remember that Wikipedia is not a place only for Hindu views. It is for all. When a Hindu is converted to Islam he is not called as neo-Muslim. Neither people ask wheather he is Sunni or Shiya. Muslim is a Muslim and it is their internal problem of division. Even Buddhists are philosopically different but they are one. Hindu terrorists are killing innocent people not only on Sri Lanka but in India they are killing converted Buddhists. Khairlanji Buddhist Massacre is best example. So Hindu users are trying to destroy the valuable article related to Buddhists updates in India. There is a need to have positive contribution from all over the world. Britain, Japan, Sri Lanka OR India. Destructive mentality of Hindu Terrorists is absolute wrong [[User:Shrilankabuddhist|Shrilankabuddhist]] 19:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:::This guy just doesn't seem to get [[WP:POINT]]. The American phrase "hooey-baloney" comes to mind here.Perhaps someone needs to tell him, preferably an admin. [[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 19:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
==Why I removed sourced edit==
ShrilankaBuddhist, I removed this section because Hkelkar created an article about it. [Kerlanji Massacre] is where you would want to put such things, if they're unbiased and the source is well-established. Please see the talk page first before adding anything. [[User:NinaEliza|NinaEliza]] 18:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
::The Khairlanji Buddhist Massacre is about a poor Buddhist family becaue 2006 many Dalits converted to Buddhism so Hindus are killing innocent masses. The issue has to be addressed in Hindu Criticism or Hindu Reaction to mass Buddhist conversions. [[User:Shrilankabuddhist|Shrilankabuddhist]] 19:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
::No reliable source reflects any of this rubbish. [[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 19:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
ShrilankaBuddhist, please see [:Kerlanji Massacre]. I'm sorry about the link. If you ever have any problems with a link, you can put the phrase into the Wikipedia search window and find the article.
ShrilankaBuddhist, so far there is only one reliable news source that say the family who was murdered were Buddhists. The URL is:
http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=123634&category=India&catID=2
If you go to the [[:Kherlanji Massacre]] article, you'll see that Hkelkar has used that link as a reference. So far, it's the only news source to make this claim.
I'm afraid you're going to need to stop trying to add this information to Indian Buddhist Revival until there are more reliable sources that state that this family was Buddhist.
[[User:NinaEliza|NinaEliza]] 19:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
SriLanka Buddhist - please desist from using such inflammatory language as "terrorist" in articles, which does not conform to [[WP:NPOV]] - see [[Osama bin Laden]] article - he is classified as "militant" and/or "Islamist" - secondly, the lankaweb, while not as bad as some other partisan ethnic or religious sites, cannot be considered to be a reliable source as it appears to be openly partisan (Sinhalese). Thanks, '''[[User:Blnguyen|Blnguyen]]''' ([[User talk:Blnguyen|bananabucket]]) 23:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
== Intellectual Dishonesty ==
Thats what I'd call this article.
First of all "Indian" Buddhist "revival" is hardly a pan-Dalit movement, forget pan-Indian! Neo-Buddhism is more academically recognised term (Gail Omvedt doesnt count). This article sounds like a missionary flier straight out of Dalitstan.org . This glosses over many facts:
1.) This "sect" of Buddhism is more of a socio-political movement than a religious one.
2.) Neo-Buddhists keep many Hindu observances.
3.) Ambedkar rather than Buddha is central to Neo-Buddhism. Neo-Buddhism can be described as a [[Cult of Personality]].
4.) This movement is basically based on (understandable) anti-Hindu (more precisely anti-Brahmin) stance.
5.) Dalits are not a homogenous community. 90% of Neo-Buddhists are from [[Mahar]] caste in Maharashtra, hardly a pan-Indian movement.
This article is full of Original research IMHO.
[[Image:England flag large.png|20px]] [[User:AMbroodEY|अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey]] [[Image:Flag of India.svg|20px]] 05:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
:I agree that the article as it stands decribes more of a socio-political movement/protest than a religious one. However, if the people who embrace this call themselves Buddhists, then Wikipedia should call them Buddhists, with the caveat that some outside the movement call it Neo-Buddhism.
:I was involved in a (rather silly, IMHO) discussion about how a living person should be described racially in the article about them. Several sources make reference to the fact that this person has "white" mother and "black" father. Arguments were made - some highly intellectual, some rather tendentious - that this person should be referred to as mixed-race, though the subject himself self-identifies as African-American. Though the talk went on and on, in the end it was declared that referring to someone as they do not refer to themselves was a violation of Wikipedia's policy on the biographies of living persons.
:Beyond any discussion of Religious (or ethnic, or racial) tolerance and neutrality - which would certainly be germaine here - I submit that in the end this article contains a "biography", if you will. It's a biography not so much of a living person, but of many faceless, nameless, people who are trying to build something. What they are trying to build (a new religious sect a socio-political movement, or both) remains to be seen - perhaps even by they themselves.[[User:NinaEliza|NinaEliza]] 06:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
::''I submit that in the end this article contains a "biography"'' This article is '''certainly''' not a biography. It is about a socio-political movement that is academically and popularly identified as Neo-Buddhism. Self-identifications are a personal POV. Most Pakistanis i've come across you identify with Perso-Arabic culture rather than Indian; but that doesnt take away the truth does it? For months Pakistan article declared that Pakistan lies in Greater Middle East (a self identification nevertheless). Only now I notice that they've reverted to South Asia.
::You see self-identifications are controversial! Neo-Buddhism has more academic acceptance. A simple google search reveals that [http://www.google.co.in/search?hs=ofM&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=Neo-Buddhism&btnG=Search&meta=] , [http://www.google.co.in/search?hs=o01&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=Indian+Buddhist+revival+movement&btnG=Search&meta=] . Lastly to call this an Indian movement is nothing but far from truth. I will be moving this article to "Neo-Buddhism" unless someone provides me with sources that suggest otherwise.
[[Image:England flag large.png|20px]] [[User:AMbroodEY|अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey]] [[Image:Flag of India.svg|20px]] 12:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:England flag large.png|20px]] [[User:AMbroodEY|अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey]] [[Image:Flag of India.svg|20px]] 12:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Wow, this article certainly seems to generate strong feelings in some people. Instead of saying "this article ''is'' intellectual dishonesty", let's we say, "this article has been edited by some editors with strong points of view, and we need to make sure balance is maintained or restored where it's been compromised". So, feel free to add important facts if you have good sources for them. I have no trouble believing that most Neo-Buddhists are Mahars, altho' I have no idea whether it is 90% or some other large percentage.
::On the other hand, I don't understand your objection to calling it "Indian". This is something that is happening in India, so it's Indian. Also, the current page title, [[Indian Buddhist revival]] is a ''description'', not a name, so it doesn't matter very much if other people are using it. Your google searches ''do'' show that the term "Neo-Buddhism" is not very common. That said, I have no strong preference for what this article is called. When I wrote the original version of it, it was called [[Neo-Buddhism]]. In any event, you'll have some trouble executing a unilateral move to that title; it didn't work when I tried it a few months ago.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]]<sup>([[User talk:Nat Krause|Talk!]])</sup> 18:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
== Dispute resolution and organisation ==
The whole page is really confusing to start with. I would rather suggest that the editors that are involved in editing this article – comment here and put forward their sources / internet weblinks so that a few mediators can decide which is in conformity with [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]]. Best wishes. — [[User talk:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington|<font color="black">Nearly Headless Nick</font>]]<span class="plainlinks"> [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&user=Sir+Nicholas+de+Mimsy-Porpington <font color="black" title="Admin actions"><sup>'''{L}'''</sup></font>]</span> 13:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll be providing my sources shortly. Anwyays I have good reasons to believe that [[User:Holybrahmin]] is a "Straw man sock puppet".
[[Image:England flag large.png|20px]] [[User:AMbroodEY|अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey]] [[Image:Flag of India.svg|20px]] 14:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
==The term "Neo-Buddhists"==
I launched into a soliloquoy that really didn't make my point. Forgive me, I was tired.
Let me be a little more direct, Wikipedia doesn't label religous groups of any kind, ever. No matter what scholars, journalists, 99% percent of the population, or the pope himself have to say about the matter, Wikipedia simply does not do it.
Lets, hypothetically, assume the worst about this group. In short, that they're not a religious movement, or socio-political protest, but some kind of dangerous, evil cult. Now lets look at the Wikipedia articles on the [[:Branch Davidians]] and the [[:Unification Church]]. You can also look at [[:Scientology]] or [[:Jews for Jesus]] for good measure.
Take a look at these articles. You can read the whole thing, but really the first paragraph will do. While many, many people believe that these are dangerous cults, not once will Wikipedia call them cults. Wikipedia will report that many, many people call them cults, and that's the end of it. That is because Wikipedia refers to facts in their characterisations, not outside labels - no matter how lofty a place they come from. It is not Wikipedia's place or mission to label an entire group of people something that they do not call themselves.
It's a non-issue, and the discussion should end here.
[[User:NinaEliza|NinaEliza]] 22:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not implying Neo-Buddhism (or Navyana if you like) is a cult or anything. It is not a conventional Buddhist sect. Ambedkar rather than Buddha is central to this sect. It simply a socio-political movement.
''It is not Wikipedia's place or mission to label an entire group of people something that they do not call themselves.''
Do you have any sources to suggest what these Buddhist actually call themselves? They call themselves Dalits for all I know. It will take more than maudlin prose to satify me. Morevover I know my Wiki conventions far better than you. It is also not Wikipedia's mission to serve as a PR source. Calling it "Indian Buddhist revival" is misleading and revisionist. Firstly, Buddhism never died in India. Much of its philosophy was absorbed by Hinduism and Sufi Islam giving rise to sects like [[Bhakti movement]] and [[Baul]]. Neo-Buddhism is a political extension of Amberkite philosophy. Their religious practices are a fusion of modern [[Shaivite Hinduism]] than Buddhism.
Laslty lass,
<blockquote>''It's a non-issue, and the discussion should end here.'' statements such as these show your unwillingness to debate and discuss the issue at hand. Anti-thetical to cardinal Wiki covention!</blockquote>
@Nat Krause: This is NOT a pan-Indian movement. It is limited to Eastern [[Maharashtra]] and parts of [[Uttar Pradesh]].
[[Image:England flag large.png|20px]] [[User:AMbroodEY|अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey]] [[Image:Flag of India.svg|20px]] 09:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
:<blockquote>'''"Do you have any sources to suggest what these Buddhist actually call themselves? They call themselves Dalits for all I know"'''.</blockquote>
I have the vociferous complaints of the editors on ''this very talk page'' who self-identify as Buddhist, for one. ''Please read the entire talk page'', I'll be happy to provide as many diffs as you like if you choose not to. For more sources, there are several websites devoted to this. While they can't be used in the article, they certainly can be used to clear up this point.
<blockquote> '''"Moreover I know my Wiki conventions far better than you. It is also not Wikipedia's mission to serve as a PR source"'''</blockquote>
What I do and do not know is arguable, and remains to be seen. I'm certainly not advocating that Wikipedia or this article become a PR source, either for the movement itself or for those who oppose them.<blockquote>'''"Firstly, Buddhism never died in India"'''.</blockquote>
I quite agree with you, if the internet is any indication. I've found 45 different Buddhist groups of varying strength in a directory aimed at listing Buddhist groups throughout the world (on a side note, I plan to contact as many of these groups as I can, for a seperate matter). That was just a cursory bit of research, and not aimed at that particular assertion. I'm sure more energtic research will reveal more.
<blockquote>'''"''It's a non-issue, and the discussion should end here.'' statements such as these show your unwillingness to debate and discuss the issue at hand. Anti-thetical to cardinal Wiki covention!'"'''</blockquote>
Since we have a difference of opinion, I suggest that we let an admin sort it out, and you're free to seek one of your own choosing if you so desire. However, I'd like to point out that an admin (Blnguyen) has asserted the exact same thing on ''this very talk page''. Again, ''please read the entire talk page'', it's much appreciated.[[User:NinaEliza|NinaEliza]] 17:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
My eyes glaze whlist reading this rant repartee. Any pointers to sepcific diffs would be helpful.[[Image:England flag large.png|20px]] [[User:AMbroodEY|अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey]] [[Image:Flag of India.svg|20px]] 18:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
== Reasons for the move ==
As I said 'Indian Buddhist revival' is a farily non-standard name for the movement. Moreover it is pretty much an exclusivist Dalit sect. Hardly a pan-Indian revival movement as the title paint it out to be...
[[Image:England flag large.png|20px]] [[User:AMbroodEY|अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey]] [[Image:Flag of India.svg|20px]] 15:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::Hello, I am not a Hindu Dalit.Officially all Dalits (SC/ST) are [[Hindu]]s. Please see Cencus India. We have a approx. 250 million population of SC/ST in India and officially the term Dalit do not have any recognition. It is widely used for Hindu Untouchable people. Who were mistreated under the Hindu Religious Laws.
We also support the [[Buddhist]] Activities in India. Buddhist Revival is a Non-Violent Conversion Movement. Most of the people from sevaral castes are converting to Buddhism. The minority Buddhist Population is scattered all over India. UP, Punjab, Arunachal, Tripura, Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh many other states the Buddhist Population is scattered. Buddhists are hardly 0.8 % of whole India's population. [[User:Pkulkarni|Pkulkarni]] 18:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Again it takes more than maudlin prose to convince people. According to GoI there are 160 million SC/STs in India NOT 250 million.
''It is widely used for Hindu Untouchable people. Who were mistreated under the Hindu Religious Laws.''
Dalit is a relatively modern coinage. Dalits themselves prefer the word. [[User:AMbroodEY|<b style="color:#FF9933;"> अमेय आर्यन DaBrood</b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:AMbroodEY|<b style="color:red;">©</b>]]</sup> 18:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of Pkulkarni's little rant above, the Neo-Buddhist cult is exclusive to a small subset of the Dalit community (who were never the most oppressed group anyways, it was the Bhangis, OBC's etc) and is not only virulently anti-Hindu but also anti-O.B.C. There are not Neo-Buddhist Dalits in Gujarat, for instance. The Neo-Buddhists are "non violent"??? [http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20051207/main5.htm]. [[2006 Dalit protests in Maharashtra|Sure, and I'm the resurrected ghost of Abraham]]. [[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 19:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::: [http://www.lankaweb.com/news/items06/201106-1.html Hindu Mobs are killing innocent Buddhists.] [[User:Shrilankabuddhist|Shrilankabuddhist]] 15:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::::[http://www.tamilnation.org/tamileelam/fundamentalism/hindutemples.htm Sinhala Fundamentalist Buddhist mass-murderers are killing innocent Hindus] and [http://www.sangam.org/FB_PHOTOGENOCIDE/Index.htm here] and [http://www.genocide.org.uk/genocide/ here][[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 03:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Darn you Kelkar wheres your sesitivty dude?? they were availing their democratic right to protest! [[2006 Dalit protests in Maharashtra]]! Anyways lets not take potshots at anybody.
''(who were never the most oppressed group anyways, it was the Bhangis, OBC's etc)''
Actually Dalits WERE the most opressed of the lot. OBC is just an artificial classfication, OBCs were so-called savarna castes.
[[User:AMbroodEY|<b style="color:#FF9933;"> अमेय आर्यन DaBrood</b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:AMbroodEY|<b style="color:red;">©</b>]]</sup> 19:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
::Maybe. I won't argue on the point of who gets the most "oppression brownie points". My contention is not that the Dalits do not have the right to protest, they do. What they did not have the right to do was burn down trains and throw rocks at people. That may work in Saudi Arabia or wherever, but a democracy like ours need to have higher standards. Look at the Hispanics in the [[2006_U.S._immigration_reform_protests]] in America. Hardly a single incidence of violence. [[User:Hkelkar|Hkelkar]] 20:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
You missed the sarcasm there.... Anyways I'm not Indian citizen, internal politcs of Maharashtra hardly concerns me.
[[User:AMbroodEY|<b style="color:#FF9933;"> अमेय आर्यन DaBrood</b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:AMbroodEY|<b style="color:red;">©</b>]]</sup> 20:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:: <b>People involved in violence are Hindus Or low-caste-Hindus they are not BUDDHISTS. Read the news properly. For Hindu violence you can not blame minority Buddhists. [http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-11-30T090300Z_01_DEL288870_RTRUKOC_0_US-INDIA-PROTEST.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-C2-NextArticle-1 Hindu Riots]. If uncivilized Hindus are doing riots for that no one can blame Buddhists [[User:Pkulkarni|Pkulkarni]] 15:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah right.. I believe you.... Isnt your Hinduphobia soo obvious? Wikipedia is not a soapbox. You are contradicting yourself. On one hand you claim that "millions" of Dalits have converted to Neo-Buddhism yet claim that the rioteers are Hindus! The riots have been sponsored by [[Republican Party of India]], which was founded by Ambedkar.
[[User:AMbroodEY|<b style="color:#FF9933;"> अमेय आर्यन DaBrood</b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:AMbroodEY|<b style="color:red;">©</b>]]</sup> 16:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::I do understand what is WikiPedia. The riots in India are laid by low-caste-Hindus. Read all news papers well before commenting. Before founding [[Republican Party of India]] Dr. Ambedkar died on 6th Dec. 1956 if Hindus are misusing his party name then ite their problem. The Buddhists are not the supporter of one political party in India. You should not mix Religious Movement article with Political parties. Don't give warped reasong. Also change your BuddhistPhobia [[User:Pkulkarni|Pkulkarni]] 12:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
== Revert War! ==
Pkulkarni desist from revert warring. This article is specifically about a Dalit Buddhist sect. [[Buddhism in India]] is perhaps the article you are looking for...
[[User:AMbroodEY|<b style="color:#FF9933;"> अमेय आर्यन DaBrood</b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:AMbroodEY|<b style="color:red;">©</b>]]</sup> 19:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
::It is HKelkar and [[User:AMbroodEY| अमेय आर्यन DaBrood]] are reverting the article without having proper dispute resolution. I am an Indian Buddhist and not from any Hindu Caste. Non-Hindu Wiki Administrators should look into it. [[User:Pkulkarni|Pkulkarni]] 12:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
==Anti-Indians are reverting article==
This article is about <B>Indian</b> Buddhist revival but few users especially from USA and UK are destroying the article without proper understanding of the subject. They are mixing the Issue of minority Indian Buddhists with low-caste-Hindus. The Buddhist are less than 0.8% and since few years many Hindus are converting to Buddhism. But the anti-Buddhists people are vanadalizing the article again and again [[User:Pkulkarni|Pkulkarni]] 12:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
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