Talk:Sweetest Day: Difference between revisions

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| width="48px" | [[Image:Evolution-tasks.png|50px|Articles for deletion]] || This article was nominated for [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deletion]] {{#if:30 August 2006|on 30 August 2006|recently}}. The result of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sweetest Day|the discussion]] was '''Keep'''.

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This article doesn't have nearly enough information. First of all, who celebrates the Sweetest Day and how do they celebrate it? Do people give candy, jewelry, flowers or other gifts? Is it mainly lovers that give these gifts or mainly family, friends, coworkers, etc.? Do people wear special colors on the Sweetest Day? Do they go on dates with their lover? Do they hold parties? In Pennsylvania we don't celebrate this holiday and I don't understand how it is celebrated. Please add more info!

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'''[[Talk:Sweetest Day/Archive1|Archive 1]]'''

Thanks!

'''[[Talk:Sweetest Day/Archive2|Archive 2]]'''

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== Where is it celebrated? ==

==This Sweetest Day Article Reads Like A Promotional Advertisement==

Grew up in Indiana in the 60s and 70s and never heard of this holiday - moved away for 30 years and came back 10+ years ago and still don't hear about anyone celebrating it. In fact, have lived all around the country and the only place I've ever lived where it is conspicuously celebrated is Cleveland which just happens to be where apparently this thing started.

The introduction is straight from the promotional websites of ''Retail Confectioners International, American Greetings'' and ''Hallmark''. The purpose of these websites is to '''promote''' Sweetest Day. Most of the references for this page are also '''promotional''' in nature. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Independent_sources Here] are sourcing guidelines. The following statements in the article are questionable:

== Comment from {{user|Miracleimpulse}} ==

* '''Sweetest Day is a holiday celebrated primarily in the Great Lakes region and parts of the Northeast United States[1] (with Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo, New York being the biggest Sweetest Day cities[2] ) on the third Saturday in October. It is described by Retail Confectioners International as an "occasion which offers all of us an opportunity to remember not only the sick, aged and orphaned, but also friends, relatives and associates whose helpfulness and kindness we have enjoyed."'''

<small>I'm moving this here from [[Talk:Sweetest Day/Comments]]. [[User:ZimZalaBim|ZimZalaBim]] ([[User talk:ZimZalaBim|talk]]) 17:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)</small>

* '''The origin of Sweetest day is frequently attributed to candy company employee Herbert Birch Kingston as an act of philanthropy.'''

* This article should '''not''' be supported by WikiProject Holidays because Sweetest Day is '''not''' a [[holiday]]; it is an annual [[promotional event]] sponsored by industry. Sweetest Day has never occurred without first being promoted by industry. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 05:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

:*I wasn't aware there was a Holiday Wikiproject, or that they in anyway were supporting (or are even aware of) this article. It's never referred to as a "holiday" in the article other than when it is called a "Hallmark holiday". It is part of the Holiday category, but unless you take an extremely narrow definition of what "holiday" means, in reality most Americans don't make much distinction between holiday, observance, and celebration. If your problem is with the Holiday category I can point you to [[National Catfish Day|all]] [[Administrative Professionals' Day|sorts]] of [[Arbor Day|"holidays"]] that [[National Grandparents' Day|don't]] [[Children's Day|meet]] the [[Teachers' Day|traditional]] [[Father's Day|meaning]] of [[holiday]]. Beyond that, what the observance is today is quite different from its apparent origins no matter what story you believe, much like <s>St. Valentine's Day</s> [[Valentines Day]], [[Christmas]], and [[St. Patricks Day]] are all considerably different today than their origin.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 18:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

:*I think "supported by" is the wrong wording. I changed it to "within the scope of", to match the other WikiProject banners. --[[User:Transfinite|Transfinite]] 19:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

::The banner basically implies that the article will be monitored for improvement and/or vandalism by the project, with perhaps additional work on improvement, references, copyediting, and so on. The specific origins of any holiday are often open to question, and I very seriously doubt if this was the first "commercial" holiday. In fact, I'm virtually certain it isn't. Whether it is or isn't however, it would probably be a violation of NPOV to not include the article within the scope of the project, as it is included in the [[:Category:Holidays]] and its subcategories, which are the scope of the project. And, it is only a recently revitalized project, so I can easily believe you hadn't heard of it before. [[User:Badbilltucker|Badbilltucker]] 19:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

:::To be honest I have not paid too much attention to most Wikiprojects outside of Wikiproject:Schools so there is probably a lot I don't know in that regard. Anyway, input on this article is always appreciated.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 19:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

How does this then differ from Valentines Day and Mothers Day - two holidays that owe themselves to the greeting card industry. BTW, I was born in Detroit and grew up in Indiana, and I never even heard of this holiday (or whatever it is) until I lived in Cleveland and have never heard of it since moving from there.[[User:Jmdeur|Jmdeur]] ([[User talk:Jmdeur|talk]]) 20:44, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

==Comparison to Valentine's Day==

* '''This tradition now largely involves giving small presents such as greeting cards, candy, and flowers to loved ones. While it is not as large or widely observed as Valentine's Day, it is still celebrated in parts of the United States, despite persistent allegations of being a Hallmark holiday.'''

isn't this kinda exactly like valentines day?[[User:24.144.137.244|24.144.137.244]] 19:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

:I think I commented about this earlier as well (might be in an archived talk page now). I had no idea Sweetest Day had anything to do with candy, aside from chocolate covered strawberries, until I read this article. Judging by all the red hearts and roses, I just assumed it was another excuse to buy cards and flowers for your "sweetie." --[[User:Birdhombre|Birdhombre]] 04:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

==I've commented out the commons link for now==

These statements should be properly and ''reliably'' sourced, or removed from the article.

The commons site for Sweetest Day is being used to push the same [[WP:OR|original research]] that was rejected by consensus in this article. Sorry, but you can't use commons as a go around for consensus here {{user|Miracleimpulse}}. You are trying to make the same arguments based on the same sources that were repeatedly rejected and disproven on this talkpage. Until this is resolved at commons, the link should stay out. I've commented out the link for the time being.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 17:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

::Beyond that, commons links go at the bottom, where I commented out, not at the top where you keep adding it Miracle. As I said earlier, as long as you are pushing the same original research that was rejected here at the commons gallery, the link should not appear here. Commons isn't a way for you to circumvent the consensus against your version.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 00:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

* The Commons Sweetest Day gallery is now protected. I am re-inserting the link. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 23:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, ''American Greetings, Hallmark, Retail Confectioners International'' and other Sweetest Day websites are '''not''' reliable sources for facts about Sweetest Day, because they are '''promotional''' in nature.

::As it's been stated numerous times before, Commons links go down in the external links section... I've uncommented the correct link at the bottom.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 02:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

==Dead American Greetings Sweetest Day link==

There is plenty of '''sourced/factual''' information about Sweetest Day out there. Just look [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Miracleimpulse/The_Sweetest_Day_Hoax here.] [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 07:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Why should a Wikipedia article contain a link to a cached version of an otherwise dead promotional link from American Greetings? Is this advertising at any cost? [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 23:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

*'''Comment''', first off Miracleimpulse, don't blank a talk page when you add comments... it is bad form. Second, I removed the tags (I presume you added). This has already been exhaustively covered and I'm sure you will dispute this, but the section is reliably sourced. The "disputed" tag in particular was originally removed by the admin who blocked you for POV edit warring on this article [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sweetest_Day&diff=75308032&oldid=75307258 diff]. This article is absolutely neutral POV and is not advertising as it explicitly states the source of all statements as well as contains a section demonstrating several sources who dispute the Herbert Birch Kingston popular mythology of this day. If you disagree I strongly encourage you to submit this article for a [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment|Rfc]] or [[Wikipedia:Requests for mediation|RfM]].--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 14:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

:It seems informative, and providing a link to the cache seems more valuable than just deleting it (especially since you seemed to revel in its going dead - POV????) [[User:Not a dog|Not a dog]] 00:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

== Suggested changes to the Sweetest Day article ==

*'''Comment''' Let's take these one at a time...

** Sweetest Day is a holiday celebrated primarily in the Great Lakes region and parts of the Northeast United States (with Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo, New York being the biggest Sweetest Day cities) on the third Saturday in October. It is described by Retail Confectioners International as an "occasion which offers all of us an opportunity to remember not only the sick, aged and orphaned, but also friends, relatives and associates whose helpfulness and kindness we have enjoyed."

*** There is plenty of sourcing on when and where the holiday is celebrated. The second statement from Retail Confectioners International is sourced and clearly attributed as well. Just because you don't agree with thier statement does not mean it should be removed from the article.

** The origin of Sweetest day is frequently attributed to candy company employee Herbert Birch Kingston as an act of philanthropy.

*** Mr. Kingston is named as the founder of Sweetest Day on several websites. If you can find a source that specifically says he did not found Sweetest Day feel free to add it.

** This tradition now largely involves giving small presents such as greeting cards, candy, and flowers to loved ones. While it is not as large or widely observed as Valentine's Day, it is still celebrated in parts of the United States, despite persistent allegations of being a Hallmark holiday.

*** What is wrong with this part?

:--[[User:Transfinite|Transfinite]] 17:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The following changes should be made to the Sweetest Day article:

'''Response to Isotope/Transfinite:''' First off, Isotope/Transfinite, I did not blank the talk page. It was archived according to Wikipedia guidelines [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_archive_a_talk_page]. Second, this article is definitely disputed and has been for some time. No concensus has ever been reached in the discussions on these pages. Most of the references on the Sweetest day page are ''advertising websites'' which are '''not''' reliable sources for factual information. Further, these advertising websites list no ''primary source'' for the information being promoted. The article is not NPOV compliant because of these sources. Commercial sources cannot but result in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Bias commercial bias]. Finally, the ''Herbert Birch Kingston'' story of the origins of Sweetest Day is '''not''' popular mythology. It is '''industry hype''' intended to deceive and sell product.

===Removal of industry promotional statements===

Let's take the article one line at a time:

The following industry promotional statements should be removed from the Sweetest Day article:

* '''Sweetest Day''' is aan holiday[[observance]] celebrated primarily in the [[Great Lakes region]] and parts of the Northeast United States (with Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo, New York being the biggest Sweetest Day cities) on the third Saturday in [[October.]]<ref>{{cite Itnews is|url=http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/21/Floridian/A_sweet_day_for_Hallm.shtml described|title=A bysweet Retailday Confectionersfor InternationalHallmark as|last=Cridlin an|first=Jay "occasion|date=[[2006-10-21]] which|publisher=St offersPetersburg allTimes of us an opportunity to remember not only the sick, aged and orphaned, but also friends, relatives and associates whose helpfulness and kindness we have enjoyed|accessdate=2007-02-21}}</ref>."'''

* It is described by Retail Confectioners International, as "much more important for candymakers in some regions than in others (Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo being the biggest Sweetest Day cities)" and an "occasion which offers all of us an opportunity to remember not only the sick, aged and orphaned, but also friends, relatives and associates whose helpfulness and kindness we have enjoyed."<ref name="rci">[http://www.retailconfectioners.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=60196&module_id=3418 Sweetest Day], ''retailerconfectioners.org''. Retrieved on [[2007-02-21]].</ref>

First of all, Sweetest Day is not a ''holiday;'' it meets none of the criteria for being considered a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiday holiday]. Sweetest Day is not a ''holy day'', nor is it set aside for observance by any nation or culture. Furthermore, Sweetest Day is not recognized by the states of Ohio, Michigan, Illinois or New York as an official holiday and is not mentioned on their websites. Nor do the websites of the City of Cleveland, Detroit or Buffalo recognize Sweetest Day as an official holiday. There is an excellent reason for this: Sweetest Day is '''not''' a holiday. '''Sweetest Day is an annual promotional event sponsored by industry and media.'''

* Sweetest Day now largely involves giving small presents such as greeting cards, candy, and flowers to loved ones. While it is not as large or widely observed as [[Valentine's Day]], it is still celebrated in parts of the United States, despite persistent allegations of being a "[[Hallmark holiday]]." <ref>{{cite news | url=http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/localguide/suburbs/west/mmx-061018-west-suburbs-sweetest-day,0,7539245.story?coll=mmx-sgtop_promo |title=Sweet wine o’ mine |last=Arnett |first=Lisa |publisher=[[The Chicago Tribune]] |accessdate=2007-02-21}}</ref>

* '''The origin of Sweetest day is frequently attributed to candy company employee Herbert Birch Kingston as an act of philanthropy.'''

These statements are all either direct quotes or are sourced to promotional or unsourced websites.

No ''primary source'' of information links ''Herbert Birch Kingston'' to the origins of Sweetest Day. ''American Greetings, Hallmark'' and ''Retail Confectioners International'' do not source the statements on their websites about Herbert Birch Kingston in any way. Further, news articles from ''The Cleveland Plain Dealer'' confirm that the details of Cleveland's first and second Sweetest Day promotions were arranged and planned by a committee of 12 candymakers chaired by C. C. Hartsell [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Miracleimpulse/The_Sweetest_Day_Hoax#The_12_Founders_of_Sweetest_Day]. The ''primary source '' information from ''The Cleveland Plain Dealer'' clearly contradicts the claims made on the websites of ''American Greetings, Hallmark, Retail Confectioners International,'' and other internet websites which promote Sweetest Day using the story of Herbert Birch Kingston. Further, the Cuyahoga Census from 1920 shows that a mortgage was in place on Mr. Kingston's home, and there is '''zero''' evidence that Mr. Kingston provided the 19,500 boxes of candy which were distributed on Cleveland's first Sweetest Day [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:10%2C000_CHEERED_BY_CANDY_GIFTS.jpg]. Although the statement may be true that the origins of Sweetest Day are frequently attributed to Mr. Kingston, it by no means warrants being the lead sentence in the section entitled ''The Origins of Sweetest Day.''

Also, the references to Bill Lubinger should be removed because first of all, the Bill Lubinger article is mostly misinformation and secondly because the article no longer appears on the internet and I don't believe it was actually published in the paper version of ''The Cleveland Plain Dealer.'' If it was, please provide the page number on which it was published. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 20:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

* '''This tradition now largely involves giving small presents such as greeting cards, candy, and flowers to loved ones. While it is not as large or widely observed as Valentine's Day, it is still celebrated in parts of the United States, despite persistent allegations of being a Hallmark holiday.'''

It has not been established that Sweetest Day is a ''tradition'' anywhere. The only tradtion which seems apparent about Sweetest Day is that it is an annual and somewhat deceptive promotional event sponsored by various related industries (greeting card, candy, flower, etc.) and media. This would mean that the tradition largely involves promotion of disinformation and deception of consumers into buying gift-related products. In 1937, ''The New York Times'' clearly indicated that the purpose of Sweetest Day was ''to exploit gift-giving'' by related industries [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Miracleimpulse/The_Sweetest_Day_Hoax#Sweetest_Day_Introduced_in_New_York_City_by_Candymakers].

*The article has to quickly say what Sweetest Day is. "Promotional event" is POV, you don't like the word "holiday", so it is an "observence".

'''To be continued.''' In the mean time, it is obvious that this article remains '''disputed''' and should remain tagged as such until some concensus can be reached, if ever. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 08:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

*In order for the article to be NPOV, it has to include the quote from Retail Confectioners International, or something similiar. The article can't be an attack piece on the candy/greeting card industry.

* The last sentence states how the holiday/observence/promotional event/whatever is celebrated, and goes on to call it a "Hallmark Holiday", which is a fairly cynical turn of phrase.

* Are you sure you want to remove the Bill Lubinger article? That is where the "concocted promotion" quote in the lead section is sourced to. If the Lubinger article goes, that goes too.

--[[User:Transfinite|Transfinite]] 05:42, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

'''Comment''' I feel there is a consensus on the current version of the article. Consensus does not mean unanimous, it means "a general agreement among the members of a given group or community". I would also like to remind you NPOV cuts both ways. The article should not be overly sympathetic to candy/greeting card industry, but neither should it be an attack piece on those companies. If you want to "expose the real truth" about Sweetest Day, that is fine, but Wikipedia is not the place to do so. Write a letter to your local newspaper, or start a website. --[[User:Transfinite|Transfinite]] 18:07, 12 October 2006

*'''Comment''' and I agree with Transfinite. As the admin who originally removed the tag stated, one editor does not constitute a dispute, particularly when said editor is trying to advance a point of view agenda and is dead set on their own version of the article that is full of POV and original research. I suspect that Mediation will be the only way to ever solve this.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 18:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Transfinite's comments * followed by my responses:

== Disputed Tag ==

*The article has to quickly say what Sweetest Day is. "Promotional event" is POV, you don't like the word "holiday", so it is an "observence".

I believe the article as-is does not need the <nowiki>{{disputed}}</nowiki> tag, since only one editor ([[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]]) is disputing it, and most of the facts are either sourced or simply semantics (such as calling Sweetest Day a holiday). However, I'll post it here before I do any more reverts, so I do not run afoul of [[WP:3RR]]. --[[User:Transfinite|Transfinite]] 17:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' I've asked the mediation cabal to weigh in on this if they will. I hate taking something so trivial there, but an edit war isn't going to solve anything and this is simply a case of 1 editor essentially denying the consensus version of this article. Hopefully mediation can bring a fresh perspective into this.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 19:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' It seems [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] has added a <nowiki>{{hoax}}</nowiki> tag and a <nowiki>{{NPOV}}</nowiki> tag to the article, both of which has since been removed. The hoax tag is mostly for hoaxes that start on Wikipedia. Since this is a verfiable holiday/event/whatever, the hoax tag is inappropriate. If I were to, for example, start an article stating the second Thursday in August was Upside-Down Day ''that'' would be a hoax, should be tagged as such, and listed in AfD. Secondly, concerning the NPOV tag, I believe there is a consensus that the article is NPOV, so that tag can go as well. However, I would still welcome an outside opinion from the [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal|Mediation Cabal]] on if this article is really NPOV. --[[User:Transfinite|Transfinite]] 03:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

:: "Promotional event" is in no way POV. The phrase simply states what Sweetest Day is. "Deceptive promotional event" or "a promotional event marketed through mass deception or on false pretenses" would be POV, but simply calling Sweetest Day a "promotional event" is not POV. Sweetest Day has never occurred without first being promoted by industry. Therefore it is neither a [[holiday]] nor an [[observance]]. Sweetest Day is not recognized or observed by any state, local or federal government, nor is it recognized by any religion, faith or ethnic group. Sweetest Day is not even recognized by the City of Cleveland where it allegedly was founded. The only group which recognizes Sweetest Day are the industries which profit from it's promotion. I suppose we could call it an "industry observance" but "promotional event" is really more appropriate.

== Featured Article Nomination ==

*In order for the article to be NPOV, it has to include the quote from Retail Confectioners International, or something similiar. The article can't be an attack piece on the candy/greeting card industry.

Wow this article got fantastic overnight. How about a ''Featured Article Nomination'' for next Saturday? [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 11:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' stop making disruptive edits [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]]. Tacking your POV version on the end isn't a viable solution.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 15:02, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

:: Take a closer look at [http://www.retailconfectioners.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=60196&module_id=3418 the Sweetest Day page] on Retail Confectioners International's website. Under "How It Started" Retail Confectioners International uses the standard [[verisimilitude]] to promote Sweetest Day. A verisimilitude is a highly deceptive cleverly-written statement which resembles the truth but actually is a replacement for the truth and intented to deceive. Inclusion of any industry verisimilitude in the Sweetest Day article without identifying it as such totally slants the article in favor of industry. All industry verisimilitudes should be immediately removed from the Sweetest Day article in order for the article to remain NPOV.

== A comment on this whole issue... ==

* The last sentence states how the holiday/observence/promotional event/whatever is celebrated, and goes on to call it a "Hallmark Holiday", which is a fairly cynical turn of phrase.

You know, even if the whole thing started as an industry-generated holiday, that doesn't preclude its existance as a valid minor modern holiday. All holidays must start somewhere, whether that's a government declaration, religious mandate, or candy industry promotion. The bottom line for its status as a holiday should be whether or not it's verifiably observed. --[[User:Tjstrf|tjstrf]] 22:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

:: The term "Hallmark holiday" is actually a promotional term for Hallmark Cards. Again, to express this idea the term "promotional event" is more appropriate. The statement also includes buying suggestions, which again slants the article in favor of industry. Today Sweetest Day remains a promotional event sponsored by industry; it has not undergone some miraculous metamorphosis into a beloved holiday of any type.

* Are you sure you want to remove the Bill Lubinger article? That is where the "concocted promotion" quote in the lead section is sourced to. If the Lubinger article goes, that goes too.

==Advertising References==

:: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sweetest_Day/Archive_1#Unanswered_Sweetest_Day_Questions Here] is the Bill Lubinger article which was published online in October 2005. First of all, there was no 4-page Sweetest Day section included in ''The Cleveland Plain Dealer's'' October 8, 1921 issue. There was a 4-page Sweetest Day section included in the October 8, 1922 issue of ''The Cleveland Plain Dealer,'' however it made no mention of any of the things mentioned in Mr. Lubinger's article. Read it for yourself; it's [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Sweetest_Day#4-page_Sweetest_Day_Section_published_October_8.2C1922 right here] in high-resolution. With this in mind, Mr. Lubinger's article can only be construed as being some sort of inverted promotion the purpose of which is to justify the observance of Sweetest Day. The article is 95% misinformation and deserves no mention in an encyclopedic article about Sweetest Day. During the Sweetest Day promotion of 2006 at least 3 internet websites quoted Mr. Lubinger's article because of it's inclusion in the Wikipedia article. Wikipedia should not be used to promote false information about Sweetest Day or anything else. As far as losing the phrase "concocted promotion" is concerned, that Sweetest Day is a "concocted promotion" will be evident to anyone who reads the Sweetest Day article once all the industry promotional phrases are removed.

I still have a problem with references #1,2,3 and 4. These websites are promotional in nature; they sell merchandise for Sweetest Day and do not reference their statements in any way. All statements referenced to these sources should be re-referenced or removed from the article. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 11:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' you have a problem with them but nobody else does. They source the statments they reference. There is no reason to remove the sources or statements, or have a tag on the article.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 12:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 16:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

==The Candy Companies That Helped Start Sweetest Day==

===Addition of facts===

Isotope I notice that you edited out the names of the Sweetest Day Founders (except for Mr. Kimberly) and the names of the '''Candy Companies''' which participated in the origins of Sweetest Day. You have also edited out this information in the past. The companies involved in the creation of Sweetest Day are significant facts in the article, as many of these companies still exist today, although it seems like '''none''' of them even ''mention'' Sweetest Day on their websites. Here is the list of companies which participated in the creation of Sweetest Day:

The following facts should be added to the article:

Companies and organizations advertised in ''The Cleveland Plain Dealer'' and ''The Cleveland Press'' which participated in the first two Sweetest Days included:

* 1) In 1922 Sweetest Day/Candy Day was also promoted in New York City, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Cincinatti and other cities across America by the candy industry. (Note: was Herbert Birch Kingston involved in these other promotions of Sweetest Day?)

'''''The Cleveland Plain Dealer Newspaper,''' The Cleveland Business Exchange, The Cleveland Advertising Club, Hotel Statler, '''Whitman's Candies,''' Loew's Park Theater, Loew's State Theater, The Ohio Theater, Apollo Chocolates, F.H. Roberts Company, Crane's Party Box, Ohio Confection Company, Euclid's Chocolates, Nimburger Hahn (Louis Hahn?) Candies, Shoot's Chocolates, Thurston's Magic Box Candies, Johnston's Candies, Hoffman's Candy And Ice Cream Companies, H.M.D Candies, Midland Candy Boxes, Standard Drug Stores (16 locations), Troughton's Sugar Jar Candies, Weideman's Candies, Addison Pharmacy, Alpha Pharmacy, The Bank Lunch, Benfield And Benfield (Benfield Drug Company), Bruggator And Ripley, H.D. Butler, W.W. Brown Company, Buckstein Drug Company, Cleveland Pharmacy, Deklyn's Candies, Deutch And Rosengarten, Fischer Rohr Company, Cedar Drug Company, Geiger Moss Drug Company, Geraldine Ferrar Company, Gerson Drug Company, Glick's Candies, Gordon Square Pharmacy, Hough Avenue Drug Company, The J.M. Gasser Company, Kappus Drug Store, Lakewood Pharmacy, Lake Shore Pharmacy, Liggett's Pharmacy, Marshall's Drug Stores (26 locations), Maxixe Cherries, Miller's Drug Stores, Parkgate Pharmacy, Price Drug Company, J.G. Reed And Company, M. Rinzler, Ritter's Candies, Seltzer Drug Company, G. Schneider-Richards Company, The Superior Peanut Company, H.M. Stage Company, Andrew E. Walleck Company, Weinberger-Euclid Drug Company, J.L. Westaway Company, Winton Hotel Drug Company, W.L.Wilson Company, Wyandotte Pharmacy, Wrigleys Gum, Reymer's Chocolates and BonBons, Edwards Candies, MacDiarmids Candies, Phelp's Candy, Mary Lincoln Candy Company, The Cross Candy Company, Forbes Chocolate Company, M. S. Stores, Romance Chocolates by The Wynne Wood, The Orient Company (baskets for candy), The Geo. H. Bowman Company, The May Company, Bailey's Department Store, Benedict's (dancing), Huyler's Candies, Martha Washington Candies, Bordens Chocolates, Schrafft's Chocolates, Playhouse Chocolates, Stranahan Brothers Company, Jackson-Trace Company, Beeman's Pepsin Gum, The Handy Service Store, and Ex-Lax (The Sweet Chocolate Laxative), '''Fanny Farmer Candies,''' The Loft, Inc.''

* 2) Sweetest Day was also referred to as "Candy Day," both in Cleveland and other cities where it was promoted.

Again, Isotope, it appears that you are spinning this article in favor of Industry. Please reinsert the facts. Thank you. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 15:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' Despite your assertion that this is somehow significant, this is an unnecessary level of detail. I edited out those names because they are not notable individuals. Mr. Kimberly is mentioned becuase there is a direct quote attributed to him. The fact that the rest of the commitee was made up of candy company employees/owners is succintly summarized by the statement: ''"Candy Men Set Oct 21 for Event to Be Called 'Sweetest Day'"''. The same is true for the list of sponsor companies you've listed above. Again, the article states "Dozens of Cleveland's top candy makers concocted the promotion 84 years ago..." The specific companies who underwrote the celebration are not terribly important; it doesn't add anything of value to the article to list every single sponsor here. This is an encyclopedia article Robb, not an expose. I think it is sufficiently stated and sourced in the article that both the Cleveland and NYC Sweetest Day committees were chaired by candy company personnel and that the advertisers for the Cleveland Sweetest Day were candy makers as well.

:As for the header you keep adding in, I think it is unecessary and interrupts the flow of the article. All that information pertains to the origin of Sweetest Day and should be listed under the origin section.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 17:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

* 3) Some candy giveaways for Sweetest Day were executed days before the event and then covered by local media.

==Today is Sweetest Day==

* 4) All candy was not given to poor people. In 1921 ''Sweetest Day in the Year Committeeman'' L. E. Gruber presented the mayor of Cleveland with a 15-pound box of candy for the mayor's wife.

...in Cleveland, and there is '''no mention''' of Sweetest Day on ''The Cleveland Plain Dealer's'' [http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/ website]. Not even one story about Sweetest Day in the Cleveland news this year? Maybe Cleveland isn't such a big Sweetest Day City after all... [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 14:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

* 5) In 1922 82-year-old Vera Sissons was selected by the ''Sweetest Day in the Year Committee'' to be ''Queen of the Sweetest Day.'' Ms. Sissons resided at the ''Home for Aged Women.'' Include image of Vera Sissons.

:So it's not a particularly big or important holiday, and perhaps it's on the downswing in degree of observance rather than a growing trend. That doesn't make it a "hoax". Anyway, there have been many past articles in the ''Cleveland Plain Dealer'', as you yourself have pointed out. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 15:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

* 6) A list of companies which participated in the first 2 Sweetest Days in Cleveland should be included in the article, in order to demonstrate the true scope of the first Sweetest Day promotions in Cleveland. That list includes:

Yes [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] ...loads of articles, editorials, advertisements...but in 2006 '''nothing.''' Maybe the intro to this article needs to be rewritten? [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 15:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The Cleveland Plain Dealer Newspaper, The Cleveland Business Exchange, The Cleveland Advertising Club, Hotel Statler, Whitman's Candies, Loew's Park Theater, Loew's State Theater, The Ohio Theater, Apollo Chocolates, F.H. Roberts Company, Crane's Party Box, Ohio Confection Company, Euclid's Chocolates, Nimburger Hahn (Louis Hahn?) Candies, Shoot's Chocolates, Thurston's Magic Box Candies, Johnston's Candies, Hoffman's Candy And Ice Cream Companies, H.M.D Candies, Midland Candy Boxes, Standard Drug Stores (16 locations), Troughton's Sugar Jar Candies, Weideman's Candies, Addison Pharmacy, Alpha Pharmacy, The Bank Lunch, Benfield And Benfield (Benfield Drug Company), Bruggator And Ripley, H.D. Butler, W.W. Brown Company, Buckstein Drug Company, Cleveland Pharmacy, Deklyn's Candies, Deutch And Rosengarten, Fischer Rohr Company, Cedar Drug Company, Geiger Moss Drug Company, Geraldine Ferrar Company, Gerson Drug Company, Glick's Candies, Gordon Square Pharmacy, Hough Avenue Drug Company, The J.M. Gasser Company, Kappus Drug Store, Lakewood Pharmacy, Lake Shore Pharmacy, Liggett's Pharmacy, Marshall's Drug Stores (26 locations), Maxixe Cherries, Miller's Drug Stores, Parkgate Pharmacy, Price Drug Company, J.G. Reed And Company, M. Rinzler, Ritter's Candies, Seltzer Drug Company, G. Schneider-Richards Company, The Superior Peanut Company, H.M. Stage Company, Andrew E. Walleck Company, Weinberger-Euclid Drug Company, J.L. Westaway Company, Winton Hotel Drug Company, W.L.Wilson Company, Wyandotte Pharmacy, Wrigleys Gum, Reymer's Chocolates and BonBons, Edwards Candies, MacDiarmids Candies, Phelp's Candy, Mary Lincoln Candy Company, The Cross Candy Company, Forbes Chocolate Company, M. S. Stores, Romance Chocolates by The Wynne Wood, The Orient Company (baskets for candy), The Geo. H. Bowman Company, The May Company, Bailey's Department Store, Benedict's (dancing), Huyler's Candies, Martha Washington Candies, Bordens Chocolates, Schrafft's Chocolates, Playhouse Chocolates, Stranahan Brothers Company, Jackson-Trace Company, Beeman's Pepsin Gum, The Handy Service Store, and Ex-Lax (The Sweet Chocolate Laxative), Fanny Farmer Candies, The Loft, Inc.

*I don't think the intro needs to be altered. It is a minor holiday. — Reinyday, 02:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

More to come! [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 21:35, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

==The greeting card industry's methods of promoting Sweetest Day==

===Request for comment===

{{ActiveDiscuss}}

* '''This section details some of the methods used by the Greeting Card Industry to take the ''Sweetest Day'' promotion national. Other Wikipedia editors are invited to expand this section of the article (in an NPOV manner of course) and post it into the current Sweetest Day page.'''

Over the past several weeks these methods have been used by Industry in the marketing of ''Sweetest Day'' in order to sell tens of millions of products to Americans. The actions of Industry are documented and ''verified'' by tens of millions of copyrighted statements (greeting cards which contain the verisimilitudes). This is in no way a ''new synthesis'' of Sweetest Day being a ''Hallmark Holiday.'' Please comment. '''No personal attacks!''' 08:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

===Removal of holiday infobox===

===[[Verisimilitude]]===

Sweetest Day is not a holiday it is an annual promotional event. Addition of the holiday infobox is purely promotional. It contains buying suggestions for Sweetest Day. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 21:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The following two verisimilitudes are from the back of millions of ''Hallmark'' Sweetest Day Cards marketed in 2006:

I think I'll comment on this, since I am the one who added the thing. The observence part I tried to make NPOV, by including what the "industry" said it was for ("Remembering friends and loved ones"), and what it seems to be actually about: buying cheap useless junk. The [[Valentine's Day]] article says the observences are "Sending greeting cards and gifts, dating". If you think the wording should change from "buying" to "sending", I have no problem with that. Besides that, I don't see the problem. It has the area it is celebrated/promoted in (which is sourced info), type (which is required for that template), and the date it happens on. --[[User:Transfinite|Transfinite]] 05:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

*''Ever wonder how Sweetest Day got it's start? It began in Cleveland during the [[Great Depression]] when a kindhearted candy worker decided to do something nice to make the tough times a little easier. He got some of his pals together and delivered little gifts and treats to people in need. Over time, Sweetest Day became more about connecting with friends and sweethearts. We now celebrate this special day on the third Saturday in October.'' --[[Hallmark Cards]] 2006

:: Again, Sweetest Day is neither a [[holiday]] nor an [[observance]] anywhere. A promotional event does not warrant a holiday box, unless of course you are trying to deceive people into believing that the promotional event is in fact a holiday. Also, there is no referenced information stating that Sweetest Day is celebrated anywhere. That information is industry promotional hype and deserves no mention in an encyclopedic article. The holiday box has got to go! [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 16:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

*''Sweetest Day was established in the 1920s by a Cleveland candy company employee who wanted to bring happiness to shut-ins, orphans, and other individuals who were often forgotten. Sweetest Day is celebrated on the third Saturday in October and has become a day for remembering loved ones and friends who enrich our lives with their thoughtfulness.'' --[[Hallmark Cards]] 2006

:::Um, Sweetest Day is ''observed'' by a large number of people, ergo, it is an ''[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/observance observance]''. That's a neutral description of the event. ANd [http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/21/Floridian/A_sweet_day_for_Hallm.shtml this citation] confirms (from a [[WP:RS|reliable source]]) that the day is observed. [[User:Not a dog|Not a dog]] 16:42, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

:::: [http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/21/Floridian/A_sweet_day_for_Hallm.shtml Your citation] confirms that Sweetest Day was created by industry and is therefore a '''promotional event.''' The definition of [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/observance observance] states that an observance is "The custom of celebrating a holiday or similar occasion." Under "similar occasion" it states "An occurrence or condition of affairs which brings with it some unlooked-for event; that which incidentally brings to pass an event, without being its efficient cause or sufficient reason; accidental or incidental cause." This aptly describes the '''event''' called Sweetest Day. We have determined that Sweetest Day does not qualify as a [[holiday]]. The term which best describes Sweetest Day is '''event,''' and given that Sweetest Day has never occurred without first being promoted by industry, it is best referred to as a '''promotional event.''' I have no problem with the first statement in the article reading: "Sweetest Day is the observance of an industry-generated promotional event." Sweetest Day is a '''promotional event''' which masquerades as a holiday, and for the Wikipedia article to call it a holiday or an observance furthers this industry deception. In order for the Sweetest Day article to remain NPOV and not promote the industry agenda, Sweetest Day must be defined as an event only, specifically an industry-generated promotional event. Again, the holiday box should be deleted immediately. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 17:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::I don't think anyone here would deny that Sweetest Day was created by industry (it isn't a naturally occurring phenomenon). But that doesn't mean it isn't "observed" - just like [[President's Day]] is observed, or Martin Luther King day, or [[Boxing Day]], or [[Dingus Day]]...all of which were created by some entity (whether industry, government, or religion is irrelevant to its social construction). As you say, it is an "event" - and event that is "observed". 'nuff said. [[User:Not a dog|Not a dog]] 22:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::Plenty of events are observed. This does not mean they are categorized as "observances." Above all, Sweetest Day is a '''promotional event''' and should be categorized as such in this article. Categorizing Sweetest Day as either an observance or a holiday slants the article in favor of the industry agenda. Industry has been promoting Sweetest Day on false pretenses for over 80 years. Wikipedia should not be used (as it has been for the past several years) to promote Sweetest Day on these false pretenses. Sweetest Day is a '''promotional event.''' End of story. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 23:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Yeah, and plenty of events are promoted, that doesn't mean they all should be categorized as "promotional events". Above all, Sweetest Day is a day that is observed, and should be categorized as such in this article. Categorzing Sweetest Day as an promotional event slants the article in favor of your anti-industry agenda. (right back at ya!). :) [[User:Not a dog|Not a dog]] 00:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: So: '''Sweetest Day''' is the observance of a promotional event sponsored by industry. Problem solved, compromise reached. Now let's change the article. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 00:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::Where is your evidence that it's ''not'' an observance? You keep going on and on at length about the ''origins'' of the so-called "event," but that has no bearing on how it's celebrated ''today''. Come here to Cleveland on the third Saturday of October and you'll see plenty of Valentine's gunk rebranded for Sweetest Day at drug stores and floral shops. Other than maybe Malley's, I've not heard one peep from candymakers about Sweetest Day here. It's all the card and floral shops that jump into the marketing blitz. I've been to more than one restaurant that served free chocolate-covered strawberries on Sweetest Day. Or are you going to claim that American Greetings is in cahoots with the food service industry too? --[[User:75.117.252.7|75.117.252.7]] 03:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::: The food service industry, the flower industry, the jewelry industry, the greeting card industry, the candy industry and others: all are '''promotors of Sweetest Day.''' Each and every year since 1921 the promotion of Sweetest Day has preceded the alleged "observance." World War II did not interrupt the promotion of Sweetest Day. Vietnam did not interrupt the promotion of Sweetest Day. Industry has now promoted Sweetest Day 7 times since the events of 9/11/2001. First and foremost, Sweetest Day is a '''promotional event''' and should be categorized as such by this Wikipedia article. Unless of course Wikipedia is also being used by industry as a tool for the promotion of Sweetest Day. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 13:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::: By that definition the Christian Churches are not an appropriate source for discussion of [[Christmas]] or [[Easter]], because they are promoters of those holidays. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 14:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::::: Hello [[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]! Why did you delete the Herbert Birch Kingston US census forms from Wikipedia without nomination or debate? What kind of impartial admin action was that?? [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 14:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

BOYS vs GIRLS

The verisimilitude printed on the back of millions of greeting cards published in 2006 by ''American Greetings'' reads as follows:

As I write this, the article says "This holiday is celebrated by boys since girls mostly celebrate valentines day". As a person who observed this day growing up in Detroit, I have to say that the statement is not true. Furthermore, males and females both celebrate valentines day. In both cases candy and cards are given to loved ones of any gender. This sentence should be removed. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.9.198.83|69.9.198.83]] ([[User talk:69.9.198.83#top|talk]]) 01:49, 23 October 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

{{reflist-talk}}

*''Celebrated on the third Saturday in October, Sweetest Day started in 1922, when a candy company employee organized a group to help deliver candy and small gifts to orphans and others whose lives needed brightening. Today, lovers and romantics embrace the day as well, but it is still a time to remember those who bring happiness to our lives." -- [[American Greetings]] 2006

== Detroit ==

The following is from Hallmark's website:

Detroit attributes Sweetest Day to Fred Sanders. There's Freep articles to source from. [[User:MMetro|MMetro]] ([[User talk:MMetro|talk]]) 13:30, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

*'''BACKGROUND & HISTORY'''

''Sweetest Day was established around 1922 by a Cleveland, Ohio, candy company employee. Seeking to bring happiness to the lives of those who often were forgotten, Herbert Birch Kingston and a handful of others who supported his efforts distributed candy and small gifts to orphans, shut-ins and others to show them that someone cared.''

I don't live in the area that observes "Sweetest Day", but my grandparents did. They also grew up in and around that era. I must agree, it may not seem deserving of recognition to some. But to those whom grew up with it and passed it down, it is a part of their memories and maybe some heritage. I say leave it be. It is as much a special day as some of the other days that are concidered "holidays"; only it is not nationally observed. So what. Like I said to someone or to someone's family memories, it is special. Let it stay where others, wheither they observe it or not, can stumble across a marking in history. Cheffy74 <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Cheffy74|Cheffy74]] ([[User talk:Cheffy74|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cheffy74|contribs]]) 12:54, 11 March 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

''Even celebrities got involved. In the early 1930s, movie star [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Pennington Ann Pennington]] presented 2,200 Cleveland newspaper boys with boxes of candy to express gratitude for their service to the public. Another movie star, [[Theda Bara]], gave candy to those who came to watch her films at a local theater and then distributed 10,000 additional boxes of candy to patients in Cleveland hospitals.''

This holiday is pretty strange.... seems to me like another excuse for Valentine's Day.

== External links modified ==

''In time, the Sweetest Day idea of spreading cheer to the underprivileged was broadened to include everyone from family members to sweethearts, and co-workers to acquaintances.''

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

''Hallmark first made Sweetest Day cards in the mid-1960s.''

I have just added archive links to {{plural:1|one external link|1 external links}} on [[Sweetest Day]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=686477064 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

--[[Hallmark Cards]] [http://pressroom.hallmark.com/sweetest_day.html website 2006]

*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070310152505/http://metromix.chicagotribune.com:80/localguide/suburbs/west/mmx-061018-west-suburbs-sweetest-day,0,7539245.story?coll=mmx-sgtop_promo to http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/localguide/suburbs/west/mmx-061018-west-suburbs-sweetest-day,0,7539245.story?coll=mmx-sgtop_promo

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know.

===[[Dissimulation]]===

{{sourcecheck|checked=false}}

===[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sock_puppet Sock Puppetry]===

Cheers. —[[User:Cyberbot II|<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II</sup>]]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">[[User talk:Cyberbot II|<span style="color:green">Talk to my owner</span>]]:Online</sub></small> 10:09, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

[http://pressroom.americangreetings.com/archives/fall04/sweetestday04.html American Greetings sock puppetry of Hallmark's website 2006.]

[http://www.americangreetings.com/events/sweetest_day.pd More sock puppetry from American Greetings' website.]

[http://pressroom.americangreetings.com/archives/fall05/sweetestday05.html Even more...]

Let's talk about it. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 23:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

*Hi, I don't understand what you're saying. Could you please explain what you mean? While I'm here, I have a few comments for you. To link to a Wikipedia article, you can type <code><nowiki>[[Verisimilitude]]</nowiki></code> instead of <code><nowiki>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude Verisimilitude]</nowiki></code>. Second, section headings in articles have the first word capitalized and subsequent words in lower case (unless they are proper nouns), so a section heading would read "Candy companies create Sweetest Day" instead of "Candy Companies Create Sweetest Day". However, a section heading such a "Origin" is a clearer way of indicating to the reader that you will be discussing the origin of the holiday. Third, it is very obvious that you are unhappy about the existence of Sweetest Day, which is fine. However, your edits to make the article have a negative view of the holiday are going to be reverted as having a point of view (POV) because Wikipedia articles try to have a more inclusive approach to subjects, and there is obviously conflicting information about this subject. Lastly, I thought the inclusion of census records was a great touch! — Reinyday, 02:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

:* Thank you for the editing tips Reinyday! It's very simple. The ''Herbert Birch Kingston'' story of the origins of origins of Sweetest Day is a [[verisimilitude]] which replaces the truth through [[dissimulation]]. [[Sock puppet]] companies then repeat the distortion endlessly and there you have it: a legend which never occurred. Some would like this to be perceived as a ''popular mythology,'' but it is not. It is '''industry-generated''', highly deceptive and used to sell products. Do not think of it as a ''little white lie.'' [[American Greetings]] and [[Hallmark]] just issued '''tens of millions''' of Sweetest Day products with this distortion printed right on the back of every card. Now do you see where I am coming from? Every day will be equally '''sweet''' when this type of ''market and consumer manipulation'' comes to an end. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 09:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

::*'''Comment''' got evidence from a [[WP:RS|reliable source]]? If so, then please link it here and we have something to discuss; otherwise this is more theorizing and conjecture and there really is no point in having a discussion. Like it or not, this version of events has been widely reported, enough that regardless of whatever the truth may be, the HBK story is still the most widely reported origin. If you have solid evidence that a particular company started the HBK story, I'd love to see it; otherwise this whole discussion is a waste of time.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 13:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

::::Lots of companies have promoted "histories" that are at least partly bogus, and actually, Wikipedia is pretty good at cutting through them and giving the real facts when they can be verified. Look at the articles on [[Monopoly (game)]] (it ''wasn't'' invented by Charles Darrow), [[McDonald's]] (it ''wasn't'' started by Ray Kroc), and [[Skippy peanut butter]] (they'd rather you didn't know about the decades-long battle over how they allegedly ripped off a cartoonist who created a character named Skippy in order to get the trademark on the name). Similarly, the article on Sweetest Day gives some skeptical scrutiny to its origin story rather than merely parroting the corporate propaganda. On the other hand, we're not a scandal sheet or a political rant site either; it's not proper to have our articles be dominated by long rants about how evil the corporations are. I think we've got decent balance in these articles, giving both the corporations' side and that of the critics, with well-referenced facts. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 13:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

'''Response to Isotope and Dan:''' Dan says, "Lots of companies have promoted "histories" that are at least partly bogus," and this is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:RS#Company_and_organization_websites exactly why] the statements and references attributed to ''Hallmark, American Greetings,'' and ''Retail Confectioners International'' should immediately be removed from this Sweetest Day article. Dan goes on to say, "I think we've got decent balance in these articles, giving both the corporations' side and that of the critics, with well-referenced facts." How can Dan maintain that both of these statements are true in the same paragraph? Actually, neither the critics nor the corporations' side is well-referenced ''at all.'' This is why we need to post just '''the facts,''' and not from company or trade organization websites.

Isotope says, "got evidence from a [[WP:RS|reliable source]]? If you have solid evidence that a particular company started the HBK story, I'd love to see it; otherwise this whole discussion is a waste of time." '''The HBK story is not primarily sourced in any way ''anywhere''.''' And you are correct: it is a waste of time to talk about it. Just remove the HBK statement and reference from the article until it is reliably sourced. [[User:Miracleimpulse|Miracleimpulse]] 14:58, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

*'''Comment''', it doesn't need to be primarily sourced and if you'd take the time to read the policies and guidelines for sourcing you would see that secondary sources are preferable to primary sources. The statements in the article are adequately sourced and state exactly what is [[WP:V|verifiable]] based on the sources. Just because you dislike the sources being used is no reason to remove the text that has consensus agreement.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 17:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)