Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 May 8: Difference between revisions
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
==== Category:Fictional ice planets ==== ▼
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''delete''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small>. Note that I left redirects, to avoid possible future confusion. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 04:57, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
: '''Propose deleting''':
:*{{Lc|Loughs of Northern Ireland}}
:*{{Lc|Loughs of County Antrim}}
:*{{Lc|Loughs of County Armagh}}
:*{{Lc|Loughs of County Down}}
:*{{Lc|Loughs of County Fermanagh}}
:*{{Lc|Loughs of County Londonderry}}
:*{{Lc|Loughs of County Tyrone}}
:'''Nominator's rationale''': Duplicates of [[:Category:Lakes of Northern Ireland]] and its subcats; e.g. [[:Category:Loughs of County Tyrone]] duplicates [[:Category:Lakes of County Tyrone]].
:Northern Ireland is a subcat of both UK and Ireland and in each case the convention is "lakes": [[:Category:Lakes of the United Kingdom by country]] & [[:Category:Lakes of Ireland]]. This "loughs" set is parented in neither, which may be why the duplication happened.
:I have already checked that all pages are in the corresponding lakes category, so no need to merge. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 22:43, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
* <small>[[WT:WikiProject Northern Ireland#Category:Loughs_of_Northern_Ireland_has_been_nominated_for_discussion|WikiProject Northern Ireland]] has been notified.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Northern_Ireland&diff=840342798&oldid=836528730] --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 08:20, 9 May 2018 (UTC)</small>
* <small>[[WT:WikiProject Ireland#Category:Loughs_of_Northern_Ireland_has_been_nominated_for_discussion|WikiProject Ireland]] has been notified.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ireland&diff=840342842&oldid=840156253] --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 08:20, 9 May 2018 (UTC)</small>
*'''Support''' – needless duplication. "Lakes of" categories are sufficient. NI lakes are already in both categories, so minimal change needed. [[User:Declangi|Declangi]] ([[User talk:Declangi|talk]]) 21:23, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - we have [[:Category:Lochs of Scotland]] so why not [[:Category:Loughs of Northern Ireland]]? All except one lake in the latter is a 'lough'. I'm inclined to suggest 'Lakes' should be merged into 'Loughs' in this instance. [[User:Sionk|Sionk]] ([[User talk:Sionk|talk]]) 20:03, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
**{{yo|Sionk}} the use of "lakes" vs "loughs" on Irish categories was discussed extensively at [[:WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 April 7#Lakes_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland|CfD 2018 April 7#Lakes of the Republic of Ireland]], where the consensus was to accept the piles of evidence I presented that Irish usage prefers "Lakes" as the collective noun.<br>I would have included the Northern Ireland "loughs" cats in that nomination if I had been aware of their existence. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 07:53, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
* '''Data'''. To test actual usage in Northern Ireland, I did the following searches in reliable sources using Fermanagh because it has 3 major lakes ([[Lough Melvin]] & the 2 [[Lough Erne]]s). The results show an overwhelming preference for "Lakes". --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 09:07, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
{| class="wikitable" style="font-size:90%"
! !! "Lakes in County Fermanagh" !! "Lakes of County Fermanagh" !! "Lakes in Fermanagh" !! "Lakes of Fermanagh" !!style="text-align: right"| Total Lakes !! "Loughs in County Fermanagh" !! "Loughs of County Fermanagh" !! "Loughs in Fermanagh" !! "Loughs of Fermanagh" !!style="text-align: right"| Total Loughs
|-
| '''Gbooks''' || [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Lakes+in+County+Fermanagh%22+-Wikipedia+-%22Books,+LLC%22&tbm=bks&pws=0&start=10 14 hits] || [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Lakes+of+County+Fermanagh%22+-Wikipedia+-%22Books,+LLC%22&tbm=bks&pws=0&start=10& 12 hits] || [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Lakes+in+Fermanagh%22+-Wikipedia+-%22Books,+LLC%22&tbm=bks&pws=0&start=10 12 hits] || [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Lakes+of+Fermanagh%22+-Wikipedia+-%22Books,+LLC%22&tbm=bks&pws=0&start=170 175 hits] ||style="text-align: right"| '''215''' || [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Loughs+in+County+Fermanagh%22+-Wikipedia+-%22Books,+LLC%22&tbm=bks&pws=0 0 hits] || [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Loughs+of+County+Fermanagh%22+-Wikipedia+-%22Books,+LLC%22&tbm=bks&pws=0 0 hits] || [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Loughs+in+Fermanagh%22+-Wikipedia+-%22Books,+LLC%22&tbm=bks&pws=0 4 hits] || [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Loughs+of+Fermanagh%22+-Wikipedia+-%22Books,+LLC%22&tbm=bks&pws=0 5 hits] ||style="text-align: right"| '''9'''
|-
|'''Gscholar''' || [https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?as_vis=1&q=%22Lakes+in+County+Fermanagh%22&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5 1 hits] || [https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?as_vis=1&q=%22Lakes+of+County+Fermanagh%22&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5 15 hits] || [https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?as_vis=1&q=%22Lakes+in+Fermanagh%22&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5 4 hits] || [https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?as_vis=1&q=%22Lakes+of+Fermanagh%22&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5 4 hits]
|style="text-align: right"| '''24''' || [https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?as_vis=1&q=%22Loughs+in+County+Fermanagh%22&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5 0 hits] || [https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?as_vis=1&q=%22Loughs+of+County+Fermanagh%22&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5 0 hits] || [https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?as_vis=1&q=%22Loughs+in+Fermanagh%22&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5 2 hits] || [https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?as_vis=1&q=%22Loughs+of+Fermanagh%22&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5 1 hits] ||style="text-align: right"| '''3'''
|-
| '''JSTOR''' || [https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Lakes+in+County+Fermanagh%22 1 hits] || [https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Lakes+of+County+Fermanagh%22 4 hits] || [https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Lakes+in+Fermanagh%22 1 hits] || [https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Lakes+of+Fermanagh%22 7 hits] ||style="text-align: right"| '''13''' || [https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Loughs+in+County+Fermanagh%22 0 hits] || [https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Loughs+of+County+Fermanagh%22 0 hits] || [https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Loughs+in+Fermanagh%22 2 hits] || [https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Loughs+of+Fermanagh%22 0 hits] ||style="text-align: right"| '''2'''
|}
* I really haven't the faintest idea how these random esoteric Google searches prove anything. Fancy finding any books or sources about lakes or loughs in Northern Ireland? Wouldn't you consider Google maps and Ordnance Survey to be far more reliable proof of what the lakes of Northern Ireland are called? [[User:Sionk|Sionk]] ([[User talk:Sionk|talk]]) 17:44, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
**{{yo|Sionk}} {{tq|random esoteric}}???? What earth are you on about?<br>Those searches are neither random nor esoteric. As set out at [[WP:COMMONNAME]] they a comprehensive tests of which collective noun is used in [[WP:reliable sources]]: same set of phrases applied to both loughs and lakes and repeated on 3 sets of sources. The result is exceptionally clearcut.<br>Maps are utterly useless because they do not use text to describe a set. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 21:23, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
::*The issue is whether people use the word 'lough' or 'lake' to describe these bodies of water in Northern Ireland, not whether they use the titles of Wikipedia categories "Loughs of Fermanagh" etc. I would say newspaper articles such as [https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/life/travel/northern-irelands-loughs-make-a-splash-with-the-family-this-summer-35965699.html this one in the Belfast Telegraph] and [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/disputed-irish-loughs-present-brexit-conundrum-for-fishermen-a7618916.html this one in The Independent (London)]clearly show the word 'lough' is used in the English language to describe these bodies of water. For that matter, there's an official body called the [http://www.loughs-agency.org Loughs Agency]. This is not a word solely used in Irish Gaelic, but commonly used in English. [[User:Sionk|Sionk]] ([[User talk:Sionk|talk]]) 06:00, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
:::*{{yo|Sionk}} You misunderstand the issues on all 3 points:
::::# You say {{tq|The issue is whether people use the word 'lough' or 'lake' to describe these bodies of water in Northern Ireland}}. Not so: a) our usage here is not naming ''individual'' lakes; it is what [[collective noun]] is most commonly used when referring to groups of them, as we do in these category titles. b) per [[WP:COMMONNAME]], the test is not some vague "people use"; it is ''"the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)"''. Note: reliable sources. Hence my numeric data on reliable sources.
::::# Cherry-picked examples to support your case do not address the test of what is most ''commonly'' used. Your reliance on 2 examples is like saying that you can identify 2 American men called "John", so most American men are called "John".
::::# There is indeed an official body called the [http://www.loughs-agency.org Loughs Agency]. If you had taken 30 seconds to follow the link at the top of that page to http://www.loughs-agency.org/about-us/, then you have seen that there's an official body called the Loughs Agency which is responsible for 2 ''sea loughs'', rather than the ''freshwater lakes'' in these categories.<br> You could also have learnt that by reading the previous discussion to which I linked yesterday: [[:WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 April 7#Lakes_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland|CfD 2018 April 7#Lakes of the Republic of Ireland]].
::::It is disappointing to have to waste time refuting the falsehoods posted by an editor who chooses not to read linked policy, not to read a linked previous discussion, and not even to read a website which they cite in evidence. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 07:41, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
:::::Ouch! No need to be so aggressive. For "cherry picked examples" I think you actually mean "examples", which I've provided in contrast to you. It's no skin off my nose if the categories are renamed, but maybe you'd like to restore some credibility by finding sources that show the majority of people talke about "lakes" in Northern Ireland. [[User:Sionk|Sionk]] ([[User talk:Sionk|talk]]) 18:29, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
::::::Two examples picked and cited without any attempt to assess statistical significance = Cherry picked examples.
::::::As to sources that show common usage: see the data table above.
::::::I'm sorry that you feel your credibility is dented, but I'm sure you will recover elegantly when you read and digest the naming policy. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 18:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
:::::::PS I just looked at you second "example": [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/disputed-irish-loughs-present-brexit-conundrum-for-fishermen-a7618916.html this one in The Independent (London)].
:::::::It's about ''sea loughs'', not ''freshwater lakes''. As with the Loughs Agency, it would have been better if you had read beyond the headline. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 18:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' – per nom. [[User:Spleodrach|Spleodrach]] ([[User talk:Spleodrach|talk]]) 11:58, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. (1) Duplication is bad. (2) we have already established [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 April 7#Lakes of the Republic of Ireland|here]] that the common collective noun for lakes in Ireland is "lakes", not "loughs". This is true for Northern Ireland as it is for the Republic. For the record, I find BHG's data from Google Books, Google Scholar and Jstor compelling evidence in favour. [[User:Scolaire|Scolaire]] ([[User talk:Scolaire|talk]]) 22:07, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''double merge''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small>. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 05:14, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
:* '''Propose merging''' [[:Category:Fictional ice planets]] to [[:Category:Fictional terrestrial planets]]
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' I strongly suspect that this category cannot grow any larger, though I didn’t look as thoroughly as last time. One of these, [[Gethen]], is not truly an [[ice planet]] any more than our [[Earth]] is/has been. –[[User:LaundryPizza03|'''<
*'''Support''' Given the low article count, there is no need to subcategorise from the parent at the moment IMO. [[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|SFB]] 21:21, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
:*'''
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:HC Ambri-Piotta players ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''rename and redirect'''. – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 21:37, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
:* '''Propose renaming''' [[:Category:HC Ambri-Piotta players]] to [[:Category:HC Ambrì-Piotta players]]
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' article name is [[HC Ambrì-Piotta]] [[User:Joeykai|Joeykai]] ([[User talk:Joeykai|talk]]) 15:43, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as speedy rename to match parent article. [[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|SFB]] 21:22, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:Rayne Red Sox ====
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:* '''Propose deleting''' [[:Category:Rayne Red Sox]] - {{lc1|Rayne Red Sox}}<br />▼
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''relisted, see [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_May_16#Category:Rayne_Red_Sox|here]]''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small>. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 05:23, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Category is for a defunct team that existed for just one year and whose article page is a redirect. [[User:WilliamJE|...William]], is the complaint department really on [[User talk:WilliamJE|the roof?]] 10:00, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
:'''Keep''' It has enough topics to keep. This category brings order to the topic and should be kept. If you want Wikipedia to become less organized and harder to use, then delete it. [[User:spatms|spatms]] Talk:[[User talk:spatms|spatms]] 17:43, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
==== Category:Meteorological phenomena ==== ▼
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:* '''Propose merging''' [[:Category:Meteorological phenomena]] to [[:Category:Basic meteorological concepts and phenomena]]▼
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' We shouldn't have "meteorological phenomena" in two categories. We should either merge [[:Category:Meteorological phenomena]] into [[:Category:Basic meteorological concepts and phenomena]], or move meteorological phenomena from the latter to the former, and make the latter just [[:Category:Basic meteorological concepts]]. [[User:Srleffler|Srleffler]] ([[User talk:Srleffler|talk]]) 01:46, 8 May 2018 (UTC)▼
▲*'''Support rescope''' of latter category to just {{cl|Basic meteorological concepts}}. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small>[[User_talk:Grutness|<span style="color: #008822;">wha?</span>]]</small>'' 02:03, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''split''' [[:Category:Basic meteorological concepts and phenomena]] into [[:Category:Meteorological phenomena]] and [[:Category:Meteorological concepts]]. <small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 06:19, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
▲:* '''Propose merging''' [[:Category:Meteorological phenomena]] to [[:Category:Basic meteorological concepts and phenomena]]
▲:'''Nominator's rationale:''' We shouldn't have "meteorological phenomena" in two categories. We should either merge [[:Category:Meteorological phenomena]] into [[:Category:Basic meteorological concepts and phenomena]], or move meteorological phenomena from the latter to the former, and make the latter just
*'''Support rescope''' (i.e., second option) of latter category to just {{cl|Meteorological concepts}}. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small>[[User_talk:Grutness|<span style="color: #008822;">wha?</span>]]</small>'' 02:03, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose merge''' the measurable natural phenomena should remain in "Meteorological phenomena" as a phenomenon is a very specific type of concept. Non-phenomena should be grouped and renamed under {{cl|Meteorological concepts}} – I'm not sure what the addition of "basic" is doing here, especially as a non-"basic" parent does not exist. [[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|SFB]] 21:28, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
**I agree. --[[User:Srleffler|Srleffler]] ([[User talk:Srleffler|talk]]) 01:52, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
**Good point. My comments amended accordingly. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small>[[User_talk:Grutness|<span style="color: #008822;">wha?</span>]]</small>'' 01:53, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Rescope''' per SFB. --[[User:Qetuth|Qetuth]] ([[User talk:Qetuth|talk]]) 10:56, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' It looks like we have a consensus to merge and split under the categories [[:Category:Meteorological phenomena]] and [[:Category:Meteorological concepts]]. --[[User:Srleffler|Srleffler]] ([[User talk:Srleffler|talk]]) 05:35, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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