Talk:Norse mythology: Difference between revisions

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==Archive==

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*[[Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Archived_nominations#Norse_mythology]]

{{WikiProject Norse history and culture|importance=top}}

*[[Talk:Norse mythology/Archive 1]]

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This may reflect a pragmatic and empirical approach to life that contemporaries might label as "existentialist" or "Darwinian." In his work "The Religious Attitudes of the Indo-Europeans," Hans Gunther links it to the "naturalistic" views of Thomas Jefferson and other scholars of the Enlightenment.

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An important insight into the laconic and pragmatic character of Norse mythology often neglected in encyclopedic works is that the Nordic peoples evolved in very harsh frost-zone environments of this planet, much like the Eskimos, and were very dependent on developing forms of technology to clothe themselves and survive cruel winters and fish in violent oceans in nasty weather. For fishermen (a relatively high proportion of the Scandinavian population) the outlook was bleak; they stood a much greater chance of dying at sea than living to a ripe old age. (This is reflected in the lack of middle-aged and elderly men buried in old cemeteries of Norwegian fishing villages relative to old women or young children of both sexes who died from disease). The Viking ship, referred to as "a poem carved in wood," was "high tech" for its era, as was Viking navigation. The Viking sword reflected advanced metallurgical skills. The Germanic peoples developed their own "runic" alphabet called the "[[futhark]]." Relative to other societies of the time, the Norsemen were an innovative "techno" people, and their attitude towards religion reflected a "technological" approach to life. To this day, Norwegians, Icelanders, and other Scandinavians (to include the Finns, who are actually more "Finno-Ugric" than "Nordic") have one of the highest literacy rates and book, magazine, and newspaper consumption rates per capita compared to other peoples on the planet. Scandinavia is also ahead of most other areas of the world in terms of the number of high tech companies per capita. This may have something to do with the sub-arctic Norse winters; when it's dark and freezing for eighteen hours a day, one hasn't much to do besides read, tinker and philosophize.

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When one reads through the Heimskringla and other histories of the Viking era and its aftermath, and counts up who commits what atrocities, one does not necessarily get an impression of Christian moral superiority. The Vikings go from raiding and harrying each other as pagans in "intramural" tribal contests to William the Conqueror's utterly brutal conquest and consolidation of Britain as a "Christian." We see the Crusades where Christianized Germanic peoples massacre Islamic peoples in the name of Jesus who they previously peacefully traded with as heathens. "Christian" government also seems to be less decentralized and more intolerant, idelogically driven, and bureaucratic than in pagan times. In some instances we go from occasional "heathen" human sacrifices to massive "Christian" witch hunts and witch burnings. Is this progress? With the advent of Christianity we do not necessarily get rid of aggression, social injustice, and immorality, we simply rearrange and skew the style, motives, subtlety, and ideological nature of these things.

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== white supremacist 'influence on the popular culture' inclusion request ==

This is analogous to how Christian theology changed during the Crusades or during the America's horrific Civil War, when Northerners grimly sang about the "terrible swift sword (of the Lord)" while watching seemingly endless streams of loved ones come home in coffins or permanently maimed, compared to the brand of Christianity practiced in more normal times.

I noticed there is a section in the article titled 'influence on the popular culture'. I noticed Norse mythology has influenced White Supremacists. I think this topic needs to be included in the article. Either as its own section which I believe would be appropriate and could be titled, "Connection to white supremacy" or at least as a subsection under 'influence on the popular culture'. For instance, the mass shooter/murderer in New Zealand wrote, “…if I don't survive the attack, goodbye, godbless and I will see you all in Valhalla!”

:I found all of the above dubious/POV, strangely/poorly written, and/or exteraneous. Have a look to see if you think it can be rewritten and merged into this article, or articles elsewhere.

I think denying this information a place on the article would reflect a bias. Can anyone help develop a section on the article?

:[[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new '''Spade''']] 02:14, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

<ref>https://www.adl.org/blog/white-supremacist-terrorist-attack-at-mosques-in-new-zealand</ref>

If you think there is a lot of POV and extraneous comment in the above, well, yes, I tend to agree with you, but I also see a lot still remaining. Take just a statement like "Few other mythic systems can have as bleak a vision of the future as the ancient Scandinavian". This is a very broad statement which does not take into account the fact that in the dark ages most of christianity offered an extremely bleak view of the future for most of the faithful, and for all of the unfaithful (of which tere were many), to name but one famous mythic system. And all of the article seems to consider Norse mythology as stable through the centuries, when in fact there is as stark contrast between the early, dark stories and something that came long after like [[Trymskvida]], which is full of pranks and merriment, and reflects the lighter world view of the last centuries of pagan belief in Scandinavia. [[User:AlainV|AlainV]] 03:47, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

<ref>https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-05-25/white-supremacists-are-killing-name-ancient-nordic-religion</ref>

<ref>https://www.politicalresearch.org/2018/02/01/white-supremacys-old-gods-the-far-right-and-neopaganism/</ref>

[[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:7A51:10B0:B1ED:B440:CA68:E8D9|2600:1700:7A51:10B0:B1ED:B440:CA68:E8D9]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:7A51:10B0:B1ED:B440:CA68:E8D9|talk]]) 16:27, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

:Of course, and I did not mean to suggest that the article as it now stands is perfect, nor that the material I removed is all bad. I encourage you to salvage anything you find important, and to make as many additions and edits as you feel are needed to explain things with a bit more perspective. I noticed a strong slant towards finding a "uniqueness" about norse mythology and culture, which may not be entirely without merit, but simply was not justified by the material provided. That said, overall, do you like the new format? [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new '''Spade''']] 18:00, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

:There's no indication that the New Zealand shooter was in any way particularly influenced by Norse myth. If he were a heathen ([[Heathenry (new religious movement)]]), he might be notable enough for mention there, but that's hard to say. However, he appears to have been a Christian. His mention of Valhalla is also nothing special—[[Talk:Valhalla#ties_to_white_supremacy|as mentioned here]]. [[User:Bloodofox|&#58;bloodofox:]] ([[User talk:Bloodofox|talk]]) 19:37, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

His use of the Cross of Odin on his weapons and his use of the word Valhalla are not 'nothing special'. Regardless of whether he was a heathen or not has little to do with his choice of using the Cross of Odin and his use of the word Valhalla. I think you do not have a neutral point of view on this topic and that you are too engrossed in it. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:7A51:10B0:899E:2798:D5E8:1F91|2600:1700:7A51:10B0:899E:2798:D5E8:1F91]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:7A51:10B0:899E:2798:D5E8:1F91|talk]]) 14:05, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and I have a good idea of what you refer to by a concern (if not an obsession) with finding "uniqueness", since I encountered it several times during my vacation travels through Sweden, and before and after these summer excursions, in my readings. [[User:AlainV|AlainV]] 04:30, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

:If you can find reliable sources on the topic, go ahead. Otherwise what you're suggesting adding here and at [[Talk:Valhalla#ties_to_white_supremacy]] is original research, which is not allowed.--[[User:Ermenrich|Ermenrich]] ([[User talk:Ermenrich|talk]]) 14:29, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

:[[WP:OR]] concerns aside, what is this "Cross of Odin" you're talking about? The [[Celtic cross]]? The [[Sun cross]]? The [[Black Sun (symbol)]]? [[User:Bloodofox|&#58;bloodofox:]] ([[User talk:Bloodofox|talk]]) 14:53, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

{{Reflist-talk}}

== advice ==

== Evaluation ==

There is some good advice in [[Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Archived_nominations#Norse_mythology]] on how the page might be improved. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new '''Spade''']] 05:06, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

== Merge Anglo-Saxon mythology ? ==

I am thinking of merging [[Anglo-Saxon mythology]] into this article, and [[Anglo-Saxon gods]] into [[Norse gods]], etc... Thoughts? [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new '''Spade''']] 16:25, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It appears to be missing relevant in regards to the Nine Worlds still. I'd also like to bump the alternative names response by a previous commenter.

:I don't think it is correct to merge [[Norse mythology]] with [[Anglo-Saxon mythology]]. The best solution would be to have an article named "Germanic mythology" with subsections, such as "Norse mythology", "Anglo-Saxon mythology", "Gothic mythology", "Saxon mythology", "Vandalic mythology", etc. However, only "Norse mythology" is well-known.

[[User:Jackpr12|Jackpr12]] ([[User talk:Jackpr12|talk]]) 19:28, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

:You cannot say that Norse mythology included Anglo-Saxon mythology. They were related but not identical, and Norse mythology did not include Anglo-Saxon mythology. One difference that shows this is that [[Frigg]] and [[Freya]] are '''two''' goddesses in Norse mythology. In Anglo-Saxon and in other Germanic mythologies, they were '''one''' and the same.--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 17:23, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

== New "genealogy" section ==

::Good point, thanks for your input, and good recent edits BTW. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new '''Spade''']] 17:56, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Recently a user ({{ping|CycoMa}}) added a section titled "genealogy" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norse_mythology&type=revision&diff=1028755526&oldid=1027744604]. Unfortunately, this misleads readers and is ultimately [[WP:SYNTH]]. This article is not about a specific source, such as for example ''Gylfaginning'', but rather about the myths of the North Germanic peoples as a whole. In turn, unless this section presents a specific genealogy from a specific source—which raises the question as to ''why'' we'd be spotlighting this particular description—we can't expect this to be anything more than misleading. For example, Adam of Bremen seems to describe Thor as the 'head' of the gods, and sources—and even manuscripts—contradict one another regarding genealogies. I think this section needs to go. {{ping|Berig}}, {{ping|Yngvadottir}} — what do you think? [[User:Bloodofox|&#58;bloodofox:]] ([[User talk:Bloodofox|talk]]) 22:04, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

:::Although it seems that could likely be a mistake by Snorri et al, trying to fit different religious theories into a complete system... =S

:I've reverted it after looking at the sources. Judging by {{U|CycoMa}}'s initial edit summaries, there's an earlier version of the template that covers more than Ymir and a few generations after him, possibly all the Æsir? but it's clear that it swallows Snorri's expansive claims for Odin's parentage of other gods, and as you say, it doesn't fit the focus of this article, which is on the mythology, not just the pantheon. I am positive it was well intentioned, and the use of Lindow's handbook shows an effort to reference it adequately, but I believe it would puzzle readers more than it enlightens them. There have been other efforts to put a genealogical table of the gods on Wikipedia; see the above section on [[Family tree of the Norse gods]], which now redirects to this article, but an article would get pretty complex, with Ernst Alfred Philippson's writings requiring careful explanation, along with some of the suggestions for equivalencies; Fjǫrgyn and Fjǫrgynn, to name one issue, and having looked at several attempts at a family tree of the gods online (all IMO better than the one in that now redirected article), I'm not sure a table can be done clearly even if there's an explanation to guide the reader: to give a few examples, Sif's parentage of Ullr creates a diagramming problem, there's the ''Prose Edda'' statement that Freyr and Freyja were born only after Njǫrðr's marriage to Skaði, we don't know who was the mother of two of Thor's children, and how do we accommodate Hœnir and Lóðurr&nbsp;... [[User:Yngvadottir|Yngvadottir]] ([[User talk:Yngvadottir|talk]]) 22:36, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

::The reason I added a Ymir only family tree is because when I did research on this it was really complex also there are certain parts in the family tree that are missing, like there isn’t much information on the genealogy regarding the [[Vanir]] and there was no sources on the genealogy of [[Surtr]].

Thanks, you have been doing a good job as well.--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 18:51, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

::I tried making an article on this subject [[Draft:Genealogy_of_Norse_Mythology|right here]] but a reviewer suggested I place it here.

== Greenland ==

::But, I’m not entirely sure what was wrong with my family tree, I checked the sources and they were from decent scholars on the subject. Also not sure how it was [[WP:SYN]] because the sources did say the things added. Did I miss certain details mentioned in the sources?[[User:CycoMa|CycoMa]] ([[User talk:CycoMa|talk]]) 02:22, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I knew Iceland had been a bastion of old norse culture, and assumed Greenland to have been similar. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new '''Spade''']] 19:15, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

:::wait where are the Vanir. [[User:Bredkid|Bredkid]] ([[User talk:Bredkid|talk]]) 14:33, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::I made this earlier version.

:The latest theory of why the Greenland settlement died out is that the Greenlanders, were too "good christians". The clergy actively forbade the greenlanders of following pagan ways, such as learning "pagan" hunting techniques from the Inuits. Since the Greenlanders tried very consciously to live like good Christian farmers, the deteriorating climate led to malnutrition, which lead to extremely high mortality among young women (the childbearing part of the population).--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 19:44, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

{{Tree chart/start|align=center|summary=An example family tree}}

{{Tree chart| | | | |WF|y|WI| | | |

== The nine worlds ==

|WF=[[Niflheim]]

|WI=[[Muspelheim]]

| boxstyle_WF =background-color: lightgray;

First of all, I have to say: '''"Hail warriors!"'''

| boxstyle_WI =background-color: lightgray;}}

{{Tree chart| | | | | | | |!| |}}

This is the first time after some months that i took a look at the norse mythology page. I remember that there were described the nine worlds there. I wonder why you guys removed it. I also remembered that there were described ten worlds in all.

{{Tree chart| | |Y2| |Y1| | | | | | | | |YN|

'''YGGDRASIL''' has three levels + the well etc.:

|Y2=[[Audumla]]

Hvergelmir,

|Y1='''[[Ymir]]'''<ref>https://www.britannica.com/topic/Aurgelmir</ref>

Mímisbrunnr,

|YN=[[Narfi]]<ref> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Norse_Mythology_A_to_Z/Ar5-hM_llvwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Nott </ref>

Urdarbrunnr

| boxstyle_YN =background-color: lightgreen;

'''HIGHER LEVEL:'''

Alfheim,

Asgard,

Vanaheim

| boxstyle_Y1 =background-color: lightgreen;}}

'''MIDDLE LEVEL:'''

Jotunheim,

Midgard,

''Nidavellir,''

Svartalfheim

{{Tree chart| | | |!| | | |!| | | | | | | | | | |!|}}

'''LOWER LEVEL:'''

Helgardh,

''Muspelheim,''

Niflheim

{{Tree chart| | | |!| | | |)| | | | | |De|y|No|y|Na| |An|

Those in ''italics'' are the worlds that usualy get lost.

|An=[[Annar]]<ref> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Norse_Mythology/u9xKAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Jord+norse&pg=PA237&printsec=frontcover </ref>

The problem is that I don't know which nine of them are the right ones, because in different sources there are different combinations of them. For instance:HELHEIM, NIFLHEIM, JOTUNHEIM, NIDAVELLIR, SVARTALFHEIM, MIDGARD, ALFHEIM, VANAHEIM, ASGARD

|De=[[Dellingr]]<ref> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Encyclopedia_of_Fairies_in_World_Folklor/nSuXAAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Dellingr&pg=PA102&printsec=frontcover </ref>

or Asgard, Ljossalfheim, Midgard, Svartalfheim, Hel, Jötunheim, Muspelheim, Vanaheim, Nifelheim

|Na=[[Naglfari]]

|No=[[Nótt]]

| boxstyle_De=background-color: lightyellow;

Here in this encyclopedia I found out that Hel is a part of Niflheim and now I'm totally confused about everything...

| boxstyle_No =background-color: lightgreen;

Or it all depends on different periods or places in the norse history?

}}

--[[User:Krofek|Krofek]] 13:22, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

{{Tree chart| | | |!| | | |!| | | | | | | | |!| |:| |!| | | | | |:|}}

Well, we do have [[Norse cosmology]], but it could use some improvement, and I agree it could be linked more prominently. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] 08:50, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

{{Tree chart| | |B1| |B2| | | | | | |Da|:|Au| | | | |:|

:The "nine worlds" or nine "''heimar''" 'homes' are only mentioned in extant texts in a single line in the second stanza of the ''Völuspá''. ''All'' attempts to identify them exactly are guesswork. But secondary sources often don't indicate this is guesswork. [[User:Jallan|Jallan]] 17:02, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

|Da=[[Dagr]]

|Au=[[Auðr (mythological character)|Auðr]]

|B1=[[Búri]]

|B2=[[Bölþorn]]<ref> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Norse_Mythology_A_to_Z/Ar5-hM_llvwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Bestla </ref><ref> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Norse_Myths/PDi5CwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Ymir </ref>

| boxstyle_B2=background-color: lightgreen;

==Asatru==

Should we merge this with [[Asatru]]? [[User:Kwertii|Kwertii]] 05:41, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

:Even the name "Asatru" is 19th century. Asatru builds upon Norse mythology but you can't bundle them up together. There should be links of course... --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 08:23, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

::while you're at it, can someone fix the horrible pronunciation hints on Asatru? [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] 08:39, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

| boxstyle_B1 =background-color: pink}}

----

{{Tree chart| | | |!| | | |)|-|-|.| | | | | | | |L|~|~|~|y|~|~|~|J|}}

I wonder whether "halm" should be renamed to straw, as that's what swedish "halm" usually refers to.. =S

{{Tree chart| | |B1|y|B2| |B3| | | | | | | | | |!|

== Norse Mythology ==

|B1=[[Borr]]<ref> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Norse_Mythology/Y4gRDAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Búri+Norse+mythology&pg=PA90&printsec=frontcover </ref>

|B2=[[Bestla]]<ref> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Encyclopedia_of_Giants_and_Humanoids_in/yVeiDAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Bestla </ref>

|B3=[[Mímir]]

| boxstyle_B3 =background-color: pink;

The Norse mythology article must certainly not be merged with Anglo-Saxon Mythology. It would be preferrable to follow the suggestion above: to create a file on Germanic mythology and then have both under that heading. One mention of the Norse mythology file, it would be more desirable to have smaller sections that great big large ones. Couldn't Creation of the World and Ragnarok be one single page or even two shorter pages? Just a minor suggestion.

| boxstyle_B2 =background-color: lightgreen;

:There is already such a page:[[Germanic mythology]]. You're welcome to work on it.--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 14:51, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

| boxstyle_B1 =background-color: pink;}}

== Table ==

I have adapted the nice table at [[Celtic mythology]] to this article. I am not sure of the colours, though.--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 09:21, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

{{Tree chart| | | |,|-|+|-|.| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!|}}

:I removed it. It was apparently not appreciated.--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 11:15, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

::Hey, Wiglaf, '''one''' person complained, and that was about the quarrel with the TOC, not the table itself! I think it's very useful. I went to edit the article, thinking to move the table, but realized I don't know what in the code it is that places the table where it is, I'm too ignorant to mess with it. Try to put it back, please! Why not put it on the right, and put the runestone image somewhere further down? Btw, the article could do with a few more images, surely. (I'm not knowledgeable enough about this to find appropriate ones, but it can't be that hard for someone who is, I should think.)--[[User:Bishonen|[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] [[User_talk:Bishonen|(talk)]]]] 12:35, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:::OK, Bishonen, here it is. Go ahead and make your edits :-)--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 12:55, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

::::sorry about my table complaint, Wiglaf. I have probably not given it enough thought to hold a definite opinion. I just voiced my spontaneous impression that it is not very useful, but I will think about it again, and I will certainly not dwell on the point. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''&#5839;'''</small>)]] 08:41, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:::::Well, you're right about the main problem with the table, i.e. that many of the links go to non-substantial articles. Hopefully, they will be more accessible with the table and fleshed out in time. Another solution could be to remove those links that don't go to real articles.--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 08:46, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

{{Tree chart| |V1|V2|V3|~|~|~|~|~|y|~|~|~|~|~|Jo|

==Cultural perspective==

|Jo=[[Jörð]]<ref>https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jord</ref>

I've been bold with the cultural perspective paragraph above the subsections, although I don't like to be when it involves deleting contributions. I think the graph only tenuouosly connected with the subject, though, as well as misplaced (compare my argument on [[WP:FAC]] today). I've included the protest about Tollund man (briefly) in the appropriate place, which is the previouos section. Here is the deleted paragraph:

|V3='''[[Odin]]'''<ref> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Norse_Mythology_A_to_Z/Ar5-hM_llvwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=odin%20mythology</ref>

|V2=[[Vili and Vé|Vili]]

|V1=[[Vili and Vé|Vé]]

| boxstyle_Jo =background-color: lightgreen;

| boxstyle_V1 =background-color: pink;

| boxstyle_V2 =background-color: pink;

| boxstyle_V3 =background-color: pink;}}

{{Tree chart| | | | | | | |:| | | | | | | |!| | |}}

''Another problem is the lack of quantitative data on the degree of certain behaviors relative to other societies. The Norsemen had slaves, but so did everyone else; what is significant is that they had a large free farmer or "bonder" class which participated in parliamentary "things", later reflected in the large English yeoman class of the Middle Ages, and never had a large peasantry, slave class, or pyramidal social structure as did societies further to the south. This was a very "middle class" society. Most men in Germanic and Norse society were free men and were expected to carry a weapon such as a sword or spear as a mark of their manliness (recorded by the Roman writer Tacitus in his work "The Agricola and the Germania.") Their indulgences in human sacrifice were generally more sporadic and less characterized by institutionalized "superstition" relative to other societies of their day. The thought patterns of their leaders were very secular. Getting back to the Tollund man, we have no written accounts that explicitly interpret the cause of the hanging. It could have been no more "Odinic" (or more accurately, related to "Tyr," as explained later) than the hanging of outlaw horse thieves and bank robbers in the old American West. Truth be told, we just do not know what the real motivation was, and the scholars who associate Tollund man with "Odinic sacrifice" simply because Odin was associated with death by hanging (among dozens of other associations) may be telling us more about their biases than about the real Tollund man.''<br>

--[[User:Bishonen|[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] [[User_talk:Bishonen|(talk)]]]] 14:19, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

{{Tree chart| | |Fr|~|y|J| | | | | | |Th1| |

:Good move. I have been bothered by this part for some while. The info is not exactly incorrect, but I share your objections.--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 14:46, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

|Fr='''[[Frigg]]'''<ref>https://mythopedia.com/norse-mythology/gods/frigg/#:~:text=Frigg%20was%20the%20Norse%20goddess,mother%20to%20Baldur%20and%20Hermod.</ref>

|Th1='''[[Thor]]'''<ref>https://www.ancient.eu/Thor/</ref><ref>https://www.britannica.com/topic/Aesir</ref>

| boxstyle_Fr =background-color: pink;

==P.S.==

Wiglaf, with the slowness of the servers and you and me editing at the same time, I think we may have been tripping each other up. For my part I haven't gotten any edit conflicts, but look at the History! I'll just reinsert the "Cultural perspective" heading--did you mean to remove it?--and then I'm out, you go ahead and edit.--[[User:Bishonen|[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] [[User_talk:Bishonen|(talk)]]]] 14:33, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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:No go ahead! I'll try to look for some nice pictures to add later, and I have a '''bunch''' of exams to correct anyway. I removed the "cultural perspective" heading too fast. I see now that there were subsections under it. Sorry.--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 14:41, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

::What a coincidence, I have exams to grade, too. ;-( I'll be back in a couple of hour and fiddle around a little, unless you let me know that that's what you're planning too. In any case, please don't go thinking I know anything about this stuff. Or I know what all Swedes learn in school, which leaves me with a bit of a hankering to insert something sarcastic about Götiska förbundet and ''Fritiofs Saga'' under "Cultural perspective" :-). I'll resist it, though, as those guys were more into heroes and, well, uh, manliness, than gods, if I remember it right, and in any case somebody with more knowledge ought to write actual content here. (A scruple which doesn't necessarily bother all contributors, I realize.) Clearly some scholars and specialists have been involved in the article, are you one of them? I hope they haven't all taken off. It'll take somebody who's done research in the area to divide the bibliography (which is in some ways very impressive) in the way I requested on WP:FAC, probably.--[[User:Bishonen|[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] [[User_talk:Bishonen|(talk)]]]] 15:44, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:::I may return after half past nine tonight, but otherwise I won't do anything more today. I have actually written very little in this article, and my additions have mostly consisted of fiddling with the text. I also hope that some real specialists are around to do some work. Good luck with correcting the exams! :-)--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 15:58, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

{{Tree chart| | | | |,|-|^|-|v|-|-|-|v| | | | | |}}

:::Good editing!--[[User:Wiglaf|Wiglaf]] 08:34, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

{{Tree chart| | | |Bb| |Ho| |Ba| | | | | |

|Bb=[[Hermóðr]]<ref>https://www.google.com/books/edition/Encyclopedia_of_Ancient_Deities/VWxekbhM1yEC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Aesir</ref>

|Ba='''[[Baldr]]'''

|Ho=[[Höðr]]<ref> https://books.google.com/books?id=TJFvejJNcpsC&q=Hod&pg=PA44#v=snippet&q=Hod&f=false </ref>

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| boxstyle_Bb =background-color: pink;

| boxstyle_Ba =background-color: pink;}}

{{Tree chart/end}}

Key

*important figures are written in '''bold''' texts.

*worlds are in gray.

*[[Æsir]] are in pink.

*[[Vanir]] are in blue.

*[[Jötunn]] are in green.

*[[Dwarf (mythology)|Dwarves]] are in yellow.

*[[Elf|Elves]] are in orange.

* white represents other or unknown.

{{Reflist-talk}}

::Right here.[[User:CycoMa|CycoMa]] ([[User talk:CycoMa|talk]]) 02:35, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

::I believe an article of Norse god genealogy would be a good idea, it’s just the reviewer said put it here.

::I do research on mythology in my free time but, I’m not too familiar with Norse mythology. Do any of you guys have ways to help with that?[[User:CycoMa|CycoMa]] ([[User talk:CycoMa|talk]]) 02:51, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

:::I think the family tree looks OK. It would be good though to explain that it is based on what was remembered in Iceland in the 12th and 13th centuries.--[[User:Berig|Berig]] ([[User talk:Berig|talk]]) 12:16, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

:::I know a way of helping you on norse. There THOUSANDS of books online. The book i learned from the most is '''WORLD MYTHOLOGY''' By Cotterel and Rachel storm. And the Wikipedia has TONS of different topics about Norse. [[User:Bredkid|Bredkid]] ([[User talk:Bredkid|talk]]) 18:26, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

{{u|Berig}} correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Snorri technically scholars only source on Norse mythology?[[User:CycoMa|CycoMa]] ([[User talk:CycoMa|talk]]) 17:11, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

:He is the main source, but we also have the Poetic Edda (not Snorri), and complementary and sometimes contradictory information from sagas, folklore, place names, runic inscriptions, image stones, Adam of Bremen, Saxo Grammaticus (Gesta Danorum) and medieval Scandinavian ballads, and probably some other sources I don't recall at the moment.--[[User:Berig|Berig]] ([[User talk:Berig|talk]]) 17:18, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

:(Before I forget, the plural of jötunn/jǫtunn is jötnar/jǫtnar. And I think there's a more specific link for the Álfar/Elves, possibly a section; scholars disagree on their status.) Berig's list is good, but what has to be underlined is that the Prose Edda systematizes material that was quite complex and contradictory. We also don't know how many of Snorri's sources, both oral and poetic, we are missing (the poetic sources include skaldic poetry as well as eddic; almost all the skaldic verses with mythological content that we still have, we still have because Snorri cited them there, but he cited them primarily as examples of kennings, and there are obvious gaps). But in addition to Saxo's very agenda-driven versions of stories of the gods, variant versions in ''Ynglingasaga'' (the first part of ''Heimskringla''; the majority of scholars still ascribe authorship of both the ''Prose Edda'' and ''Heimskringla'' to Snorri, although it has been suggested that most of the ''Prose Edda'' was written by committee) and the euhemerized stuff in the Prologue and the so-called epilogue, plus wonky points like admitting to the reader that "some people say" Thor killed Jǫrmungandr the first time, demonstrate that he was making the material as neat, tidy, and proto-Christian (see the introduction of Odin) as possible. There's also influence from Classical thought; how much has been debated, but for example Jọrð's ancestry from Nótt looks as if it's from Greek thought (and Snorri initially presents her as Odin's daughter).

:Even if it were possible or useful to settle on a single version of such a genealogical table, and even if it was kept to the deities and their ancestry (removing the fire and ice and dwarfs and treating jǫtnar and elves only incidentally), it would be much, much bigger than this; where are Týr, Ullr, Heimdallr, Loki, the children of Thor (for that matter the avenging sons of Odin, the sons of Loki, and the entire Vanic group—you've defined a color but they aren't there—even Snorri says there were 13 gods, and the next generation is important to his emphasis on the arc from creation to Ragnarok and beyond), and almost all the goddesses? And it would be immensely complicated. I mentioned above the problem showing Sif's relationships clearly; Iðunn is once called an elf; there are figures for whom scholars disagree on their status (Bragi, Ægir, Vǫlundr, Hermóðr, Forseti, the group of "handmaidens of Frigg"). Look at how many have "Old Norse" in the left, "Name" column in [[List of Germanic deities]]. (That's the alternative article to which {{U|DGG}} suggested merging your table at [[Draft:Genealogy of Norse Mythology]].) The last version of [[Family tree of the Norse gods]] before redirection is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Family_tree_of_the_Norse_gods&oldid=895477220 here] (note that it is very wide, there's a scroll bar); it has a more complete genealogical diagram that begins to indicate the challenges of getting even one version of the family tree into a diagram; it's in two sections, has footnotes indicating unknown stuff, and is still both bewildering and inaccurate. Your use of general sources, of which I see only Lindow that I would call reliable, means you haven't noticed a lot of the problems.

:Also, even if those problems could be overcome, I really don't think this article should cover the genealogy of the gods. This article is about the mythology: the stories and what underlying meanings scholars have discerned in them, including comparative mythology. We have separate articles on not only all the figures, including non-deities such as Ymir and Jǫrmungandr, but on Old Norse religion; between those, the hope has been that the reader can discern what scholars think the nature and importance of the relationships between various deities was to Norse heathens/pagans, from whom Snorri was removed by a chasm of time and worldview, but to whom he was also connected by an inherited tradition that he revivified and preserved.

:I've so far left out the issues of likely regional differences in Viking Age heathen tradition, and of likely influence in both directions from Sami and Finnish. But they should be mentioned as further checks on just plumping for one view. In addition, as I mentioned above, there's a school of thought that the relationships between the deities changed over time, represented in particular by Philippson; the title of his most cited work, ''Die Genealogie der Götter in Germanischer Religion, Mythologie, und Theologie'' [The Genealogy of the Gods in Germanic Religion, Mythology, and Theology] demonstrates that "genealogy" is itself problematic for this reason; it can mean either a family tree or origins. (By the way, [[Ernst Alfred Philippson|Philippson]] was a refugee from Nazi Germany; he continued to publish in German, but he was at the University of Illinois.)

:This is why I think any family tree is going to confuse more than it enlightens. In my view, in an ideal world, this article would be a guide to the stories and how they have figured in academic work, and [[Genealogy of the Norse gods]] (I would advocate moving [[Family tree of the Norse gods]] to that title to keep its history) would be a prose article on the pantheon, including family relationships and relationships to jǫtnar and elves and also the two groups of the Æsir and Vanir, as represented in the sources. It would include points about how some figures may or may not be the same (Vili and Vé vs. Hœnir and Lóðurr, for example) from the point of view of conflicts between and within sources and scholarly theories, including Philippson's, which would necessarily involve a small amount of comparison with information from non-Norse Germanic sources. If it included family trees at all, I would advocate having several, both to break up the complexity by focusing on small sections at a time in single diagrams, and to illustrate differing views. (That would be the way to show Snorri's "Odin was everybody's father", as an alternate diagram.) [[User:Yngvadottir|Yngvadottir]] ([[User talk:Yngvadottir|talk]]) 23:38, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

::It is exactly where the situation is confusing that a genealogical tree helps. It's the basic way for schematizing and it's also the best memonic. For an expert who already knows the literature it may not be necessary--they're thinking more of the details, and they know where they fit in. For the more casual reader they're essential. They can be done at various levels of detail. Using the analogy that I (and I think many people here also) know best, which is England 1000+, a beginner or general reader will be helped by just the key relationship between the monarchs, leaving off side lines and disputed successions. The specialist knows that the real interest and the key to what people's motivations were, lies in exactly those side lines and the relationships between them; they will have the general table in their head, but need detailed trees of the various branches. Getting much nearer this topic, take ''Beowulf''. Every modern version has a genealogical table; even though the poet has taken care that it can all be deciphered from the text itself, it helps the reader. And the table still needs footnotes, to indicate at least which are at least partly historical, and which mythological. So I agree with {{U|Yngvadottir}} that we need a series of detailed tables , but I think we also need a simplified consensus table, for without it the general reader won't be able to see the basic structure or use the detailed tables. It doesn't have to be definitive. There may be more than one way to do it; there's no reason not to use several.

::In my own field, I recall a long dispute about which form of the periodic table of the elements to use as the general table; the fr and de WPs have settled it by always presenting the two main versions together. There is no dispute on the facts, rather on what aspect of he facts to focus on. '''[[User:DGG| DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG| talk ]]) 06:03, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

:::I don't think either regnal lists (esp. leaving off disputed successions) or the periodic table (assuming you're right that there are only 2 competing versions; you might be surprised how little I know about science) are good analogies. This is a case of trying to reconstruct based on flawed, unclear, and contradictory information, with a lot of major figures for whom we just don't know, and the possibility that varying things were held to be true in different times and places (even within Scandinavia). Plus the difficulty of making it not resemble a bowl of spaghetti or a 2-dimensional diagram of 3-dimensional chess, although someone with a gift for diagramming might be able to do it better than I've yet seen it done :-) I also don't see the importance of knowing who was whose grandparent and how many different other parents someone's children had (especially since part of Snorri's version appears to be based on a Greek philosophical model, and especially with the likelihood that different names have been assigned to the same figures in some cases; to be frank, both identifying Norse deities with each other and seeing things in Norse mythology as based on medieval Classicism and Christian/Biblical models have been popular arguments among scholars since WW2). I believe the idea was given a chance with the former diagrammatic article and proved unworkable. I've laid out what I think should be done if there must be diagrams somewhere, but I think the downside outweighs the upside, and that includes both giving readers the impression there was a consensus, or is a scholarly consensus now, and having those who do know this material write a very difficult and rather recondite article (i.e., the genealogy of the gods in either meaning is only borderline notable so far as I know). [[User:Yngvadottir|Yngvadottir]] ([[User talk:Yngvadottir|talk]]) 06:29, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

::::{{u|CycoMa}}, Yngvadottir gave a very good explanation above. Norse mythology is a very messy field, and Snorri's accounts can only be described as a reflexion of what Viking Age Scandinavians believed. We all know that you have the best intentions here, but sorry, Norse mythology is too messy a field for a generalized family tree of the gods. The best we can to is something like "Family tree based on the Prose Edda".--[[User:Berig|Berig]] ([[User talk:Berig|talk]]) 15:21, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

:::::I think it's also worth highlighting that this is hardly restricted to the North Germanic corpus—we see the same thing in, for example, Greek mythology. [[User:Bloodofox|&#58;bloodofox:]] ([[User talk:Bloodofox|talk]])

== Short description ==

I noticed that the template for it is there, but it has no content. Is there a specific reason for this? [[User:Caleb Spencer|Caleb Spencer]] ([[User talk:Caleb Spencer|talk]]) 19:26, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

:See [[WP:SDNONE]]. [[User:TylerBurden|TylerBurden]] ([[User talk:TylerBurden|talk]]) 19:58, 19 May 2025 (UTC)