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<noinclude>{{Wikipedia:Reference desk/header|WP:RD/H}}
[[Category:Pages automatically checked for incorrect links]]
[[Category:Wikipedia resources for researchers]]
[[Category:Wikipedia help forums]]
[[Category:Wikipedia reference desk|Humanities]]
[[Category:Wikipedia help pages with dated sections]]
[[Category:Non-talk pages that are automatically signed]]</noinclude>
= August 12 =
== Kenneth W. Dam ==
I'm currently working on a bio about [[Lawrence McEnerney]]. While looking into the history of the [[University of Chicago]] writing school, I discovered this comment by McEnerney at a NLRB hearing in 2017. McEnerney is asked when and how the writing program started at UChicago, and he answers: "About 40 years ago, late '70s, early '80s, [by] three faculty members, [[Joseph M. Williams|Joseph Williams]], [[Gregory G. Colomb|Greg [Colomb]]] and [[Kenneth W. Dam|Kenneth Dam]]."[https://provost.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/13-RC-198325-U.%20OF%20CHICAGO-05.30.17-TRNS%20VOL%208%20mini.pdf]
This is interesting because I've never seen any other source that mentions Kenneth W. Dam as the co-creator of the writing program, however, it makes a kind of sense, as he was an active faculty member at that time, both as a law professor, provost, and director of the Law & Economics program at UChicago. Another interesting connection is that McEnerney was teaching advanced writing classes to law students in 2004 in his English 11401, "Writing Law" course.[https://magazine.uchicago.edu/0412/research/coursework.shtml] But, my primary question remains. Aside from the link to the [[National Labor Relations Board]] hearing, I can't find anything connecting Dam to the origins of the writing program. Can anyone help? [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 04:35, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
:It is conceivable that Dam's role in the transition of the Little Red Schoolhouse to the more expansive Writing Program was confined to active encouragement and helping to think about form and content, informed by his own experience of the low quality of his students' writing, rather than being involved in its actual organization, but had nevertheless a substantive impact. Have you tried contacting the Writing Program ({{mailto|writing-program|uchicago.edu}})? ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 09:01, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
== For information ==
I am pleased to offer you a page labeled "quality article" by the '''French''' Wikipedia (a subject ignored in all other languages): [https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danse_dans_la_Rome_antique Dance in ancient Rome - in French] [[User:Égoïté|Égoïté]] ([[User talk:Égoïté|talk]]) 07:59, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
:@[[User:Égoïté|Égoïté]] If you mean it's a subject ignored in other ''Wikipedias'', it's just that no one had written those articles yet. [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia is a work in progress|Wikipedia is a work in progress]]. [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]]|[[User talk:Shantavira|<sup>feed me</sup>]] 08:32, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
::"My God! But I had no idea that WP is under development! My God! How could I have been unaware of this?" (This is a joke, don't worry) <br>
::I don't understand your reaction: I kindly inform Wikipedians that a page providing information on a topic that has not yet been covered (barely touched on in WP ES, in fact) has just been recognized as a quality article, telling me that it can provide a basis for work in other languages, and you react as if I were someone ignorant of how WP works. Without asking who I am or why I'm providing this information? Have you read the page? Evaluated the work? What a positive attitude from you! Learn to say thank you and keep yourself informed. Goodbye, sir. [[User:Égoïté|Égoïté]] ([[User talk:Égoïté|talk]]) 11:24, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Then what exactly is the point of your post? This is a page where people ask factual questions about the real world, so your post in both off-topic and a kind of non-sequitur. Like, that article is good... so? What of it? There are many good articles and there are places they get listed for people to find them if they're curious. Instead, you've decided that we should draw our attention to ''this one in particular'' just because you wrote much of it? [[User:Matt Deres|Matt Deres]] ([[User talk:Matt Deres|talk]]) 12:32, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Égoïté|Égoïté]] It would be best to make a post about it at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome]]. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> [[User:Abductive|<span style="color: teal;">'''Abductive'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Abductive|reasoning]])</span> 12:58, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::Agreed. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 15:35, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
:{{re|Égoïté}} I apologise for the unpleasant responses from Shantaviraj and Matt Deres. They do not represent the RefDesks. What they should have said is something like "Thank you for your work. It would probably be best to post about it at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dance]] and [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome]] where you should find editors who share your interest." [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 16:35, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
:::[[User:DuncanHill]], thanks for that comment. More useful would be for those with nothing to add, to add nothing. [[User:DOR (HK)|DOR (ex-HK)]] ([[User talk:DOR (HK)|talk]]) 17:51, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
::In what universe is Shantavira's post ''unpleasant''? Mine was snarky, but don't lump in a good editor like them with the dregs. [[User:Matt Deres|Matt Deres]] ([[User talk:Matt Deres|talk]]) 18:37, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
::: I agree. Apologising for other people is always risky business. -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 22:19, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
::::I agree and apologize for people apologizing for other people. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 11:14, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
== Russia boundaries 1980-2016 ==
Facebook served me a map of Russia with boundaries for 1980-2016. Presumably 2016 is related to its war with the Ukraine, but what changed in 1980? Some boundary treaty with China or Mongolia? Internal border changes with another Union Republic? I can't find any changes, no matter how small, and I'm wondering if this is some autogenerated silliness. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 19:57, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
* The latter. [[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 22:34, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
::Are you saying an internal border change with another Union Republic, or autogenerated silliness? [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 02:09, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
::: The latter. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 22:20, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
== Papal name ==
Let's say you're a high level RCC Cardinal, to the extent that you get to be pretty good buddies with the Pope, and you're on a first-name basis. Are you supposed to call him Leo (his papal name), or whatever his pre-Papacy name was? Or is it up to him, so you just go along with whatever he asks for? Is there a tradition or doctrine that predicts what his preference would be? Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:90F2:5EEC:2BFD:58B4|2601:644:8581:75B0:90F2:5EEC:2BFD:58B4]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:90F2:5EEC:2BFD:58B4|talk]]) 23:06, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
:This isn't a matter of doctrine — what to call the Pope is strictly a matter of practice, because there's nothing in the Bible or the Magisterium that says that one of these options is inherently right or wrong. The [[Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith]] doesn't have a direct interest in the question. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 02:13, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
::It also matters on context. In a private conversation, he would likely call him Robert or Bob (he was usually referred to as "Father Bob" back in Chicago), but if mentioning his name in any formal context, it would certainly be under his papal name. [[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]] ([[User talk:Xuxl|talk]]) 15:52, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
::I'd like to know where, if anywhere, that the pope is referenced in the Bible. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 21:00, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
:::{{Bibleverse|Matthew |16:18–19}}, as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 21:40, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
::::Yes. Never mind that the "rock" Jesus referred to was Peter's "confession of faith". But the word Pope, which comes from Papa, wasn't used until the 1200s. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 00:57, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::The referent in {{serif|συ εἶ Πέτρος}} ("you are ''Rock''") is IMO unambiguously the fisherman Simon and not his proclamation of Jesus being the Anointed. See also {{Bibleverse|John|1:42}}, noting that Aramaic כיפא (kēp̄ā) means "rock". ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 12:04, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::::That's the Catholic viewpoint, as noted earlier.
::::::::15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
::::::::17 Jesus said to him, “Simon, son of Jonah, you are happy because you did not learn this from man. My Father in heaven has shown you this.
::::::::18 “And I tell you that you are Peter. On this rock I will build My church.
:::::::←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 16:53, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::::And it is not unambiguous. See [[Confession of Peter]]. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 17:03, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::::I presented conclusive evidence that "Rock" (whether borrowed from Aramaic as {{lang|grc|Κηφᾶς}}, as in ''John'' and several epistles by Paul, or translated to Greek {{lang|grc|Πέτρος}} as in ''Matthew'', ''Mark'', ''Luke'', ''John'' again and ''Acts'') is a name given to the person also known as Simon, a fisherman. This evidence is purely textual and does not depend on any doctrine. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 09:03, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Bugs, I was taught that verse 18 is making a pun there "You are Peter (rock) and on this rock..." and that was in a Southern Baptist church. Admittedly, the use of "rock" as his name is a reference to his "rock solid" faith. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 15:58, 18 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::??? "Pope" is obviously an English word, & "the 1200s" is about when it starts being useful to speak of "English". Are you saying no language used a "papa" term before that period? I doubt that, but whatever. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 01:28, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::Etymology of "pope":[https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=pope] I don't see where Jesus referred to Peter as "papa" or "father". When He spoke of "father", that was in reference to God, which He likely would have said as "Abba". ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 06:20, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::::Thank you - exactly as I suspected, it goes back to [[Old English]], and in Continental languages to around 250 at least. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 15:48, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::Cardinals tend to be traditionalists… I suspect most would address him as “Your Holiness” even if he said “Please, call me Bob”. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 01:15, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::But the ones who were friends with him and called him Bob before he became Pope might still call him Bob, at least privately. I suspect anyone who didn't know him well enough to call him Bob before May 8 of this year still doesn't know him well enough to call him Leo, but calls him Your Holiness instead. —[[User:Mahagaja|Mahāgaja]] · [[User talk:Mahagaja|''talk'']] 20:37, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::: I doubt that anyone would call him just "Leo" in any event. If they were on a first-name basis already, it would have been "Bob", and I can't see anyone suddenly switching. I'm sure the pope's brothers' messages after the conclave would have started "Congratulations, Bob", not "Congratulations, Leo". But we can't possibly know any of these things for sure. -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 21:34, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
Thanks everyone. I had been wondering whether calling him "Bob" would be something like [[deadnaming]]. I guess it isn't, but in some religious contexts (e.g. conversion to Islam, like [[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]]'s) you're supposed to use the new name exclusively ("Congratulations, Kareem"). [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:4893:3245:85F8:79DD|2601:644:8581:75B0:4893:3245:85F8:79DD]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:4893:3245:85F8:79DD|talk]]) 19:40, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
: Before his accession, there were decades of speculation about what regnal name [[Charles III|Prince Charles]] would take. The most common suggestion was "George VII", often citing unimpeachable sources. Had that actually occurred, imagine the massive confusion in the media and among the general populace, given that he'd been known to the world as Charles for close to 74 years. Leo XIV is close to 70 himself, but I think popes are in a special category, whereby they're expected to adopt a papal name that is not the same as their birth name. Also, prior to their election they're generally unknown to the world at large, so the name change per se is not an issue as far as global recognition is concerned. In fact, there's naturally a great deal of public interest in the background of this new kid on the block who has literally overnight gone from obscurity to global recognition, monarchical status, and leadership of a community of billions of followers. -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 20:15, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:Others have said it already above, but I'm going to reiterate it: I doubt a single person in his life is addressing him by name, papal or given. I think he will invariably be addressed, at least insofar as the faithful and the church and administrative staff around him, through titles: 'your holiness', 'holy father' and so forth--including their various cognates or translations in different languages. Perhaps someone outside the faith looking to be irreverent or outright transgressive might shout "Yo Bobbyyyy!" at him at some point, but short of those speculative niche circumstances, he now exists within the linguistic framework of a highly formalized set of relational dynamics and nobody within his daily lived experience, even his former closest friends, is likely to violate those norms, at least as far members of the church go. I suppose family is a possible exception, but in that case I think it is obvious they would use his given rather than papal name--unless, again, attempting to be flippant or sardonic. ''[[User:Snow Rise|<b style="color:#19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color:#66c0fd">n</b><b style="color:#99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color:#b2dffe;">w</b><b style="color:#B27EB2;">Rise</b>]][[User talk:Snow Rise|<sup><b style="color:#d4143a"> let's rap</b></sup>]]'' 06:58, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 13 =
== Synagogues built after 1948 in Muslim-majority countries ==
What are new purpose-built synagogues after 1948 ([[Israeli Declaration of Independence|May 14, 1948]]) in Muslim-majority countries? So excluding renovating or rebuilding old ones ([[Jewish Community of Doboj]]) or existing buildings turned into synagogues ([[Dushanbe_Synagogue#The_new_synagogue_building]] or [[Sha'ar Hashamayim Synagogue (Tondano)]]). I found three in Turkey ([[Neve Shalom Synagogue]] 1951, [[Caddebostan Synagogue]] 1954, and [[Burgazada Synagogue]] 1968), two in Iran ([[Yusef Abad Synagogue]] and [[Abrishami Synagogue]] in 1965), two in Azerbaijan ([[Synagogues_in_Azerbaijan#Synagogues_in_Baku]] 2003 and 2011), [https://www.jta.org/quick-reads/uzbekistan-jews-fight-to-save-124-year-old-synagogue-from-demolition Tashkent Synagogue] (1973), [[Arie Livne Jewish Cultural Center]] (2013), [[Beit Rachel Synagogue, Astana]] (2004) and the UAE [[Moses Ben Maimon Synagogue]] (2023). Are there others? [[User:A455bcd9|a455bcd9 (Antoine)]] ([[User talk:A455bcd9|talk]]) 06:43, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
:The section {{section link|History of the Jews in Indonesia#Synagogues}} mentions two synagogues founded this century: [[Sha'ar Hashamayim Synagogue (Tondano)|Sha'ar Hashamayim Synagogue]] in [[Tondano]], [[Sulawesi]], using an existing house converted to and consecrated as a synagogue, and the newly-built Beit Torat Chaim Synagogue in [[Jayapura]], [[Papua]]. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 10:57, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
::A synagogue opened on the campus of [[University Mohammed VI Polytechnic]], which is located in Morocco, in 2022. See [https://fr.timesofisrael.com/le-maroc-ouvre-la-premiere-synagogue-de-campus-universitaire-dans-le-monde-arabe here] (note the article mentions Marrakesh, but the synagogue is located in [[Ben Guerir]], the site of the school's main campus). [[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]] ([[User talk:Xuxl|talk]]) 15:57, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
:::[[User:A455bcd9]], your header says "after 1948", but your first sentence says "after 1949". Could you clarify? [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 02:43, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]]: fixed. I meant after the [[Israeli Declaration of Independence]].
::::@[[User:Lambiam|Lambiam]]: thanks, I excluded the one in Tondano as not purpose-built. I'm not sure the one in Jayapura is recognized by other Jews as part of the community: https://www.jpost.com/jerusalem-report/the-jews-of-jayapura-445226
::::@[[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]]: thanks, very interesting! [[User:A455bcd9|a455bcd9 (Antoine)]] ([[User talk:A455bcd9|talk]]) 11:39, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
== British line of succession if Edward VIII had not abdicated ==
Suppose king [[Edward VIII]] had not abdicated, who would have inherited the throne after his death in 1972? Edward VIII did not have children. His younger brother [[George VI]] (who inherited the throne in real life) died in 1952. [[Mary, Princess Royal and Countess of Harewood|Princess Mary]] died in 1965. Would it have been [[Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester|Prince Henry]]?
Or would the throne have been passed directly to [[Elizabeth II]] (who inherited the throne from her father George VI in real life) if the line of succession goes depth-first instead of breadth-first? [[User:JIP|<span style="color: #CC0000;">J</span><span style="color: #00CC00;">I</span><span style="color: #0000CC;">P</span>]] | [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 22:17, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
:The crown would have passed to Elizabeth. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 22:27, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for your answer. [[User:JIP|<span style="color: #CC0000;">J</span><span style="color: #00CC00;">I</span><span style="color: #0000CC;">P</span>]] | [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 22:31, 13 August 2025 (UTC)
::An exact parallel illustrating such succession is the death of [[William IV|King William IV]] in 1837: he had no surviving legitimate children, and so the next in the line of succession would have been his brother, [[Prince Edward, Duke of Kent and Strathearn]]. However, Edward had died in 1820, so the crown passed to Edward's daughter, [[Queen Victoria|Princess Victoria of Kent]], who succeeded as Queen Victoria. [[User:Proteus|Proteus]] [[User_talk:Proteus|(Talk)]] 13:43, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
:::I actually asked this question 20 years ago at [[Talk:Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester#Would he be King?]] and got the same answer from [[User:John K|John K]] —[[User:Mahagaja|Mahāgaja]] · [[User talk:Mahagaja|''talk'']] 20:46, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 14 =
== Fritz Derby Day and the Idylls of the King? ==
Watching the ''[[Upstairs, Downstairs (1971 TV series)|Upstairs, Downstairs]]'' episode [[The New Man (Upstairs, Downstairs)|The New Man]], and Lawrence Kirbridge, who perhaps was "not the marrying kind", rebukes his new wife [[Elizabeth Bellamy|Elizabeth]] for quoting her grandfather about carving meat. He says something like "your grandfather's notion of art is centred on Fritz Derby Day and Tennyson's "[[Idylls of the King]]". Like any English gentleman I am of course familiar with [[Tennyson]] and his Idylls. Fritz Derby Day on the other hand I do not know. Could anyone here help? Thank you, [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 21:56, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
:[[The Derby Day|Frith's Derby Day]] is a very interesting painting from a social history perspective, but I suppose if her grandfather liked it he wasn't showing great discernment since {{tq|it became so popular that a rail was needed to protect it from the thronging crowds}}. [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;"> Card Zero </span>]] [[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 22:07, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::Ah thank you! Not Fritz but Frith's :) I can't say I agree with the "if it's popular it isn't any good" judgment, but then the Frith I'm most familiar with is [[Francis Frith|Francis]], and as for [[Fritz]] then it's the Kaiser. I honestly thought "Derby Day" was my mishearing of some sort of foreign name like "D'Arby D'Ez", not the actual Epsonian event. Much appreciated. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 22:19, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Help me out with a small matter, then: do you see a "high-class prostitute in brown riding clothes is on the extreme left"? It looks to me like brown is an error for black. [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;"> Card Zero </span>]] [[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 22:26, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::::{{re|Card Zero}} With a white collar and looking across to her right? She is in black. To her right are a young woman in russet grasping the arm of her rosy-cheeked beau in a smock. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 22:53, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::Thanks, Ima change it. It's been like that since the article was created, but they didn't have the main image back then, only the preliminary sketch without prostitute, so no easy reference to catch the mistake I guess. [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;"> Card Zero </span>]] [[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 23:11, 14 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::It is conceivable that inspection of the actual painting will show that what appears as black in this digital image is in fact a dark brown. One report that the colour is brown:
:::::::"Echoing her position, a well-known Horse woman called <u>Annie Gilbert</u>, in brown riding clothes is on the extreme left, one of many that could be seen each day riding in Rotten Row, Hyde Park."<sup>[https://www.shafe.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/TB-People-and-Places-in-the-Nineteenth-Century-Shafe-45-mins-2017-06.pdf], p. 41</sup>
:::::: ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 08:43, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::::That is almost exactly the article text, and the rest of the description matches the things mentioned by the article too. It's evidently the source, and it's the source of the error, so say I. Maybe I have to cite this source, and revert it to "brown", unless somebody wants to contact Laurence Shafe and get him to admit the clothes are black. Well ... this might be time to trot out the "according to" phrase. Or one of those <sup>[a]</sup> note things. [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;"> Card Zero </span>]] [[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 12:37, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::::The article by Shafe is dated July 2017, but mention of brown riding clothes on the extreme left were already present in the earliest revision of the Wikipedia article, created 28 January 2012. If Shafe is the source, it must have been through an earlier version of the text in the 45-minute tour now on the Web. It presumably also would mean our article may be a copyvio. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 21:50, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
::::How can we know the figure represents a courtesan (possibly even specifically [[Catherine Walters]])? Maybe this would have been obvious to a 19th-century observer, but for stating this as a fact in Wikipedia today it could do with a citation to a reliable source. In fact, there appears to be evidence that Frith depicted accomplished equestrian [[Annie Gilbert]] here,<sup>[https://rosiehharte.substack.com/p/tis-pity-shes-a-whore-or-is-she][https://susannaforrest.blog/page/4/][https://www.shafe.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/TB-People-and-Places-in-the-Nineteenth-Century-Shafe-45-mins-2017-06.pdf]</sup> who was also the model for [[Edwin Landseer]]'s ''[[:File:The Shrew Tamed.jpg|The Shrew Tamed]]''. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 08:30, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::The Laurence Shafe source says {{tq|Many such as Catherine ‘Skittles’ Walters, were courtesans but it appears Miss Gilbert was a horsewoman}}, so there's something funny about how the article has apparently copied nearly all of it but contradicts that part. Perhaps Shafe wrote otherwise in some previous description (or is copying from some other source) and changed his mind subsequently. Cans of worms, good grief. You try to change one simple obvious fact about a color ... [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;"> Card Zero </span>]] [[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 12:46, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::: The obvious question is: Are being a horsewoman and being a courtesan mutually exclusive? -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 18:42, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::::That's the point: Walters and her coterie were indeed both – from her article: "She was a part of the "pretty horsebreakers", a group of courtesans made famous by their remarkable horsemanship. Walters' skills in the saddle allowed her to mix easily with high society."
:::::::Gilbert was (presumably) not a courtesan, but she (allegedly) modelled for the painting by Albert Landseer which may have been intended to evoke Walters, whom Gilbert resembled, and which was taken by many actually to be a portrait of Walters. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/90.210.150.115|90.210.150.115]] ([[User talk:90.210.150.115|talk]]) 02:30, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
Who copied whom? Without access to a time machine, an article written in 2012 did not use a PDF dated 2017 as a source. ''Evidently''. If I ''had'' used a source, I would have noted it at the time, just like the other sources that I did use and note [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Derby_Day&oldid=473613621 at the time]. If you have the time and the inclination, you could perhaps just delete the whole useless outdated thing and write something better. [[User:Theramin|Theramin]] ([[User talk:Theramin|talk]]) 00:16, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
:The time mismatch was noticed already above; the [[Special:Diff/1306089535|edit summary]] was "2017 > 2012". But can you ([[User:Theramin|Theramin]]) explain the mention of <u>brown</u> riding clothes? [[:File:William Powell Frith - The Derby Day - Google Art Project.jpg]] had not been uploaded yet in 2012, nor AFAICS any other version showing a woman in riding clothes on the extreme left. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 07:42, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 16 =
== House of Stuart to House of Hanover? ==
I had a look at the articles about British monarchs on Wikipedia about which houses they came from. Apparently the [[House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha]] changed into the [[House of Windsor]] because the monarchs didn't want to sound German and just changed their name. Previously, the [[House of Hanover]] changed into the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha when [[Queen Victoria]] from the House of Hanover married [[Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha]]. But how and why did the [[House of Stuart]] change into the House of Hanover between [[Anne, Queen of Great Britain|Queen Anne]] and [[George I of Great Britain|George I]]? [[User:JIP|<span style="color: #CC0000;">J</span><span style="color: #00CC00;">I</span><span style="color: #0000CC;">P</span>]] | [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 11:22, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
:George I was related to the Stuarts through the female line. When a female member of the House of Stuart married any children would be members of the house of her husband. George was born in Hanover, and had his mother lived another 65 days she would have become Queen, and the House of Stuart would have changed into the House of Bohemia. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7C:F2D0:B700:CCF4:52B2:F721:4B9F|2A02:C7C:F2D0:B700:CCF4:52B2:F721:4B9F]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7C:F2D0:B700:CCF4:52B2:F721:4B9F|talk]]) 12:46, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for your answer. [[User:JIP|<span style="color: #CC0000;">J</span><span style="color: #00CC00;">I</span><span style="color: #0000CC;">P</span>]] | [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 14:48, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
:::The question of what to call the ruling house was raised in the 1950’s, when Queen Elizabeth II came to the throne: Should her family continue to use “Windsor” or should they follow older tradition and switch to “Battenberg” or “Mountbatten” (her husband’s house)? It was decided to continue with Windsor. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 15:26, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
: Our article says that Queen Victoria remained in the House of Hanover all her life, and the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha came into being only when Edward VII acceded to the throne on her death. The change was a ''result'' of Victoria's marriage to Prince Albert, but it did not ''come about'' immediately upon her marriage, but only on her death. -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 17:23, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
== Civil war Union unit called G. A. T. ==
In [[s:Index:Maurine and Other Poems.djvu|Maurine and Other Poems]] (1882) by [[Ella Wheeler Wilcox]], the poem "After the Battles Are Over" ([[s:Page:Maurine and Other Poems.djvu/179|here]] and on the following six pages), has a note that says: {{tq|Read at Re-union of the G. A. T., Madison, Wis., July 4, 1872}}. Anyone have an idea what G. A. T. stands for? I can't find anything that makes sense. Based on the poem it's probably some Union military unit. The poem also mentions various battles but I'm not sure if it's really intended to list battles that unit participated in. — [[User:Alien333|Alien]] [[User talk:Alien333|<b style="display:inline-block;line-height:100%;font-size:60%;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,#007,#077,#070);background-clip:text;color:transparent"> 3<br/>3 3</b>]] 18:22, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
:From [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_uMqAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA705#v=onepage&q&f=false this] it appears that she wrote the poem for a reunion of the Grand Army of the Tennessee, whatever that was. --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 19:54, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
::Oh, I see we have an article on the [[Army of the Tennessee]], which I imagine is the same thing. As an Englishman my ignorance on this subject is profound. --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 19:59, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Perhaps the name "Grand" was inspired by the [[Grand Army of the Republic]], and possibly referred to a Tennessee-specific chapter of it? (It's a fraternal organisation of Union veterans, so would make sense for a 1872 reunion.) — [[User:Alien333|Alien]] [[User talk:Alien333|<b style="display:inline-block;line-height:100%;font-size:60%;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,#007,#077,#070);background-clip:text;color:transparent"> 3<br/>3 3</b>]] 20:01, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Actually; [[:File:General_Grant's_tour_around_the_world%3B_(IA_generalgrantstou00hickiala).pdf]] and a few other historical accounts do mention a Grand Army of the Tennessee as a military unit, notably related to the [[Siege of Corinth]]. Given that page mentions how that siege involved three joined Union armies, including the Army of the Tennesee, I suspect that Grand Army of the Tennessee was the name for the group of the three of them.
:::What corroborates this is that when that pdf mentions a Grand Army of the Tennessee on page 27, it says it had 120,000 soldiers, which according to our article for the siege was the sum of the Union forces, whereas the Army of the Tennessee proper only had 50,000 men. Case closed, I suppose? Thanks for the help! — [[User:Alien333|Alien]] [[User talk:Alien333|<b style="display:inline-block;line-height:100%;font-size:60%;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,#007,#077,#070);background-clip:text;color:transparent"> 3<br/>3 3</b>]] 20:12, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
::::Interesting! I would have assumed a typo for "G.A.R." Never heard of the Grand Army of the Tennessee before. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 10:51, 18 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 18 =
== AU local council property = Crown property? ==
Imagine a piece of property owned by your average local council, e.g. a reserve or public library or council offices. Is it property of the Crown in right of whatever state you're in, even though it's not directly owned by the state, and does the answer vary from state to state? (Unless there's a relevant law already in place, the state government can't just sell off or repurpose the property in the way they could a police station; they'd have to get the council's permission, or abolish the council, or put a bill through state parliament permitting the action in question.) Obviously there's no Crown-in-right-of-the-City-of-Melbourne, Crown-in-right-of-the-City-of-Sydney, etc. but one one hand it seems odd to imagine that public property would not be owned by the Crown in some sense, whilst on the other hand I suppose there's a difference between property owned directly by the state and property owned by public entities that aren't the state. This grows out of [[Adverse possession#Overview by country]], which notes that adverse possession doesn't apply to Crown land in four states and has a much longer requirement than private land in the other two states; I'm unclear whether this is true of land owned by local governments or only of land owned directly by the state. Given the subject matter, I can't figure out how to search for the answer; my searches have left me wondering if council property is perhaps Crown-in-right-of-state property that the council manages, but I'm very unclear. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 10:50, 18 August 2025 (UTC)
:I would think that the offices of, say, Melbourne City Council, are not separable property but are part of the building in which they are located. In Melbourne this is [[Melbourne Town Hall]]. I suppose this building is the property of the City of Melbourne, not of its Council. I suspect that city councils, not only in Australia but in most jurisdictions, are not [[juridical person]]s that can themselves own property. Two or more persons (natural or legal) can be [[Concurrent estate|co-owners of property]], but I doubt such arrangements exist of property being co-owned by [[administrative division]]s at different levels, except in special cases by special arrangements. So, if I am correct, [[Victoria (state)|Victoria]] has no property right to Melbourne Town Hall, so the building is not Crown property. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 00:30, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
::Sorry for the confusion — at least here in Victoria, people say "the council" both when referring to the shire/city/borough and when referring to the group of elected officials who administer it, and that's what I meant. My local public library is owned and operated by "the council", even though the elected councillors don't participate in day-to-day operations. Whether here or in other states, do councils/LGAs actually own property, or do they merely administer it on behalf of the Crown-in-right of the state? I see your last sentence, but it sounds like you're not certain about your supposition. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 20:51, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 19 =
== St. Vitus being pushed into the oven ==
[https://realonline.imareal.sbg.ac.at/en/detail/nr-000706] That is apparently a medieval painting depicting an event that the article [[St. Vitus]] doesn't say anything about. Any idea who the artist is, and what was supposed to be happening? The pic has been circulating as a meme captioned "Guys, are you sure this is an MRI scan?" if of any interest. I pasted it into Tineye to find the museum page. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:D24C:4669:D137:D5D0|2601:644:8581:75B0:D24C:4669:D137:D5D0]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:D24C:4669:D137:D5D0|talk]]) 00:31, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:The relevant institute of the [[University of Salzburg|Salzburg University]] (the alma mater of [[Leopold Mozart]]) is located in Krems / Danube, some 100km west of Vienna. A link to contact this dependeance is given in your reference. [[User:Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM|Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM]] ([[User talk:Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM|talk]]) 07:05, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
: The realonline website you linked to has a tab with metadata containing most of the info you probably need: [https://realonline.imareal.sbg.ac.at/en/detail/nr-000706]. According to that, it's part of a winged altarpiece from the late 15th century, from [[Styria]], now located in Vienna, and the painter is identified as the "Master of the Legend of Saint Veit", which presumably means it's an anonymous artists associated with this particular piece as his main attested work. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 07:57, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:::I'd go further than "presumably". "Master of the <[[namepiece]]>", such as "[[Master of the Aachen Altar]]", "[[Master of the Legend of Saint Barbara]]", "[[Master of the Legend of the Magdalen]]", "[[Master of the Virgo inter Virgines]]", ..., is the standard way of coining a ''[[Notname]]'' for otherwise nameless makers of medieval artwork. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 14:18, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:: And here [https://books.google.ch/books?id=B0RxOatqGwoC&pg=PA371&dq=%22st+vitus%22+%22oven%22&hl=de&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi8i-LJtJaPAxXm6wIHHXGkJeUQ6AF6BAgFEAM#v=onepage&q=%22st%20vitus%22%20%22oven%22&f=false] is an English translation of the medieval legend of the martyrdom – in this text it's described as a "furnace" or an "oven" in which the saint was "standing". There are more frequent conventional depictions of the saint in medieval art where he is standing in a cauldron of what is supposedly hot oil, the version where it's more like a baker's oven may be particular to this one painting. <small>(In any case, he is reported to have survived it unharmed, so maybe it was an MRI scanner after all.)</small> [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:11, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:::The term used in the [http://www.liberius.net/livres/Selecta_martyrum_acta_(tomus_primus)_000000437.pdf Latin original] is ''[[wikt:clibanus|clibanus]]'', which is glossed as "1. earthenware or iron vessel for cooking bread; 2. oven, furnace." Considering its etymology (see {{serif|[[wikt:κρίβανος|κρίβανος]]}}), the depiction of the saint-to-be being slid into a tunnel-shaped oven like an oversized meatloaf seems more plausible than having him stand up in a cauldron. However, the depiction is possibly not fully true to the Latin text, which has him ''jactatus [...] in medium clibani instar maris fervescentis'' ("thrown into the middle of the furnace like a boiling sea"). This would require implausible aiming precision of the throwers, given the limited size of the furnace's orifice as depicted. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 15:00, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:A discussion of the piece is found [https://vgprovenienzforschung.volkskundemuseum.at/en/belvedere/ here]. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 14:22, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:The painting is also on the Commons: [[:File:Meister der Veitslegende - Martyrium des hl. Veit (Vorderseite), Christus vor Kaiphas (Rückseite) - 10886 - Belvedere.jpg]]. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 15:08, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
== Tikal–Calakmul wars ==
The article [[Tikal–Calakmul wars]] [[First Tikal–Calakmul War|and]] [[Second Tikal–Calakmul War|its]] [[Third Tikal–Calakmul War|derivatives]] raise my doubt. [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Tikal%E2%80%93Calakmul+War&btnG= I have not found any authoritative sources that claim that these wars took place]. more precisely, I did not find the statement that there were three wars that lasted a certain time. I checked the sources in the articles, they say that these were long-term conflicts, but no distinction was made. It looks like [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]] [[User:Двадцать четыре|Двадцать четыре]] ([[User talk:Двадцать четыре|talk]]) 17:31, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:It may be well be [[WP:OR]]. I haven't seen a good recent source with a synthesis on this topic. The sources in the article are mostly general ones that I don't think support the details of the article. The best sources I have handy are
:{{cite web|last=Guenter|first=Stanley|date=March 2002|title=UNDER A FALLING STAR:THE HIATUS AT TIKAL|url=https://www.academia.edu/download/62218714/Guenter_2002_-_MA_Hiatus_at_Tikal20200227-58118-1pu9otk.pdf|website = |___location=Bundoora, Victoria 3086 Australia|publisher=School of Archaeology, Faculty of Social Sciences, La Trobe University}}
:{{cite web |last=Boot |first=Eric |date=October 12, 2002 |title=THE LIFE AND TIMES OF B’ALAH CHAN K’AWIL OF MUTAL (DOS PILAS),ACCORDING TO DOS PILAS HIEROGLYPHIC STAIRWAY 2 |url=https://www.mesoweb.com/features/boot/DPLHS2.pdf |website= |___location=Rijswijk, the Netherlands |publisher=Mesoweb}}
:{{cite web |last=Boot |first=Eric |date=October 13, 2002 |title=THE DOS PILAS-TIKAL WARS FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF DOS PILAS HIEROGLYPHIC STAIRWAY 4 |url=https://www.mesoweb.com/features/boot/DPLHS4.pdf |website= |___location=Rijswijk, the Netherlands |publisher=Mesoweb |access-date=}} {{cite web |last=Guenter |first=Stanley |date=2003 |title=THE INSCRIPTIONS OF DOS PILAS ASSOCIATED WITH B’AJLAJ CHAN K’AWIIL |url=https://www.mesoweb.com/features/guenter/DosPilas.pdf |website= |___location= |publisher=Mesoweb}}
:{{cite book|last1= Martin|first1= Simon|last2 = Nikolai|first2 = Grube|date = March 25, 2008|title = Chronicle of the Maya Kings and Queens|___location= United Kingdom|publisher = WW Norton|isbn= 9780500287262|edition = 2nd}} [[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] ([[User talk:Eluchil404|talk]]) 00:47, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::As far as i understand, the only war clearly mentioned in the sources is the civil war in Tikal. But here too there is a question about the right of its existence, since everything can fit into the biography of [[Bʼalaj Chan Kʼawiil]]. [[User:Двадцать четыре|Двадцать четыре]] ([[User talk:Двадцать четыре|talk]]) 05:53, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Martin, Simon. ''Ancient Maya politics: a political anthropology of the Classic Period 150–900 CE''. Cambridge University Press, 2020. is another source to check. I don't have a hard copy and find it much more dense and theoretical when compared to the sources given above, even the technical ones from Mesoweb, but at least it's a modern synthesis not a 20-year-old virtually primary source. Chapter 9 is on Conflict and includes a case study of "War and Exile on the Stairways of Dos Pilas" which would be the conflicts in question. My understanding is that the battles in the articles are real; it's just the delineation of separate, numbered wars that is OR since the political situation is not always clear. I.e. was a cessation of fighting just an illusion based on incomplete records, a truce, an occupation, a usurpation by a rival king, in this case, scholars (or at least Stanley Guenter) have guesses but can't say for certain in light of an incomplete record. [[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] ([[User talk:Eluchil404|talk]]) 20:45, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Looking more closely at the articles themselves, it is clear that they reflect the basic analysis of Simon Martin rather than Stanley Guenter. I have a strong preference for Guenter's style and a mild one for his conclusions so I went to him first, but the idea of Tikal and Calakmul as two superpowers dominating late Classic politics like the USA and Soviet Union dominated the late twentieth century is fairly traceable to Martin, IMO. But I would argue that the pages you mentioned at the beginning are not a reasonable summary of his published work and are fairly read as OR synthesis based on Martin and Grube 2000 (the cited source) and maybe some (uncited) popular science write-ups or unpublished conference presentations. I won't format most of these links to avoid cluttering up the page.
:::[https://www.mesoweb.com/articles/martin/SiteQ.pdf Site Q: The Case for a Classic Maya Super-Polity]
:::[https://www.mesoweb.com/articles/martin/Macro-Politics.pdf Evidence for Macro-Political Organization Amongst Classic Maya Lowland States]
:::MARTIN, S., and N. GRUBE. "Maya superstates." Archaeology 48, no. 6 (1995): 41-46.
:::[https://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/RT10/StarWar.pdf Tikal's "Star War" Against Naranjo]
:::[https://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/journal/201/DoubleBird.pdf Unmasking "Double Bird", Ruler of Tikal]
:::[https://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/journal/201/DoubleBird.pdf Caracol Altar 21 Revisited: More Data on Double Bird and Tikal's Wars of the Mid-Sixth Century]
:::Martin, Simon. ''Ancient Maya politics: a political anthropology of the Classic Period 150–900 CE''. Cambridge University Press, 2020.
:::[[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] ([[User talk:Eluchil404|talk]]) 00:26, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
::::No one denies these conflicts, but such a specific selection in the articles is very similar to the original research. Even if there is something in this source, it is not enough. These wars can be moved to articles on the history of cities, biographies and others. Separate articles are superfluous [[User:Двадцать четыре|Двадцать четыре]] ([[User talk:Двадцать четыре|talk]]) 09:36, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
===Subsidiary question===
What kind of sources exist for pre-Columbian Mayan politics? Obviously we have some written records that are secondary sources, but what about primary written records? Would archaeological artefacts (without inscriptions) be able to yield much information on the question? [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 02:46, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
:Of the presumably many thousands of pre-Columbian [[Mayan codices|Mayan manuscripts]], only four have survived the destruction campaign waged by [[Diego de Landa]]. None cover political events or themes. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 12:41, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
::There are also surviving monumental inscriptions, though we don't seem to have an overview-style article on them. Mentioned [[Mesoamerican_literature#Monumental_Inscriptions|here]] and we have some decent articles on the individual sites, such as [[Yaxchilan]]. The quantity, quality, and nature of such inscriptions is sufficient that our article at [[Palenque]] has a list of rulers stretching back hundreds of years. [[User:Matt Deres|Matt Deres]] ([[User talk:Matt Deres|talk]]) 14:11, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
: Modern sources, like those I linked above are based on are based an ancient inscriptions, mostly on stone stelae, but one article is based on a wooden lintel and there exists a few inscriptions in stucco or on pottery. Inferring political facts from material culture is notoriously difficult. For instance, in the Early Classic Period many Maya cites show Teotihuacano style architecture or pottery in at least some areas, is this because they were conquered by Teotihuacan, allied with it, or simply copying a popular trend? The first interpretation is currently favored (while at one time it was mostly rejected as improbable) based on inscriptional evidence. [https://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/news_archive/25/strangers/strangers.html The Arrival of Strangers] [[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] ([[User talk:Eluchil404|talk]]) 20:36, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
:The inscriptional evidence is pretty extensive, because the Classic-period Maya erected stelae to commemorate an awful lot of events in their reigns, especially calendrical ceremonies and victories in battle. In some cases, kings' lives can be followed down to their dates of birth. But the record for most of the city-states has major gaps in some periods, and a lot of phenomena beyond the dry event-and-date stuff, like the nature of the relationship between the Maya city-states and Teotihuacan as Eluchil mentions, are not directly discussed in the record and thus very open to interpretation. [[User:A. Parrot|A. Parrot]] ([[User talk:A. Parrot|talk]]) 16:56, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 20 =
== Crow people and scalping ==
I just finished ''[[Jeremiah Johnson (film)|Jeremiah Johnson]]'' on DVD. The [[Crow people]] are depicted as scalping the Europeans and killing Johnson's (Robert Redford's) Flathead wife and mute son Caleb. Can anyone with familiarity with the film attest to its historical accuracy? I looked in the Crow article and searched for "scalp" but could only find the Crows being victims of scalping at the hands of the [[Piegan Blackfeet]] (and scalping isn't mentioned in their article either despite the photo). Any help? Also were the Flatheads really Christianized? [[User:Therapyisgood|Therapyisgood]] ([[User talk:Therapyisgood|talk]]) 04:55, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:[https://books.google.com/books?id=fxPmEAAAQBAJ&pg=PR48&dq=Crows%7c%22Crow+people%22+scalp&hl=en Here] two Dakota pictographs (the bottom left two in the plate on the preceding page) are interpreted as "Crows scalped an Oglála boy alive" and "Some Crows came to their camp and scalped a boy". I cannot vouch for the veracity of the account or the accuracy of its interpretation, but it establishes that the Crow people have at least a historical reputation of engaging in scalping. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 13:06, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:Here are more historical references: [https://books.google.com/books?id=m7RcAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA337&dq=Crows+%22obtained+three+scalps%22&hl=en], [https://books.google.com/books?id=HGcOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA318&dq=Crows+%22ripped+off%22+%22his+scalp%22&hl=en], [https://books.google.com/books?id=zE9VSqcbA0IC&pg=PA451&dq=Crows+%22scalp+dances%22&hl=en]. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 12:25, 21 August 2025 (UTC)
== obituary ==
why did you not have an obit for Bill Moyers? having donated to you for a while this truly has me upset as you will post obits for lesser known or less important people [[Special:Contributions/50.35.131.62|50.35.131.62]] ([[User talk:50.35.131.62|talk]]) 20:53, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
:Are you talking about the recent deaths section on the main page? If so, the simple answer is because nobody nominated the article at [[Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates|in the news]]. I think it might be a little late for [[Bill Moyers]] now, but in the future, feel free to nominate an article if you think it should be on there. [[User:MediaKyle|MediaKyle]] ([[User talk:MediaKyle|talk]]) 21:31, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
::It looks like it was nominated, but the article had unresolved quality concerns at the time: [[Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/June 2025#RD: Bill Moyers]]. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 22:30, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
:Are you mistaking us for another organization? We here are the reference desk of an encyclopedia and never post obituaries. The "In the News" section of the [[WP:Main Page|Main Page]] of Wikipedia may note the death of a celebrity, like right now that of astronaut [[Jim Lovell]], but this is typically a brief sentence, not an obituary. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 21:32, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
:The 'In the News' section is not meant to function as a news ''report'', i.e. to be people's first alert to events: it is intended to point to particularly good ''articles'' that are about subjects which are receiving current news reports elsewhere for some reason; ''sometimes'' that may be because the subject is a person who has just died.
:The size of the section is limited and there are always more candidate articles (about recently deceased people and many other types of subjects) than can be accommodated; there is a formal procedure (which MediaKyle linked above) for nominating and considering candidates. If (as in this case) a person's article is not as good as it might be, it will not make the cut – this is a reflection on the quality ''of the article'' at that time, not of the worthiness of the person the article is about. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/90.210.150.115|90.210.150.115]] ([[User talk:90.210.150.115|talk]]) 07:42, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
:I find your mention of past donations to be somewhat problematic. Your having given Wikipedia or the Wikimedia foundation money does not mean that you get control over what we do or do not publish. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 23:07, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
::From time to time, a user will make this type of complaint, and of course there's no way to verify it. Take it as a bluff. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 01:51, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:::That's good to know. I was so scared they might be serious. Now I can sleep again. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 02:41, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 23 =
== securities regulations ==
I’m curious about instances where investment securities regulations though well established on paper, prove inefficient in practice, sometimes even working against their intended purpose. [[User:Grotesquetruth|Grotesquetruth]] ([[User talk:Grotesquetruth|talk]]) 16:53, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
:Maybe start with this [[Regulatory capture]] article. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> [[User:Abductive|<span style="color: teal;">'''Abductive'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Abductive|reasoning]])</span> 13:17, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 24 =
== School year ==
Is there any other country where school year starts typically already in first half of August? In Finland, it started on 7 August. This was its earliest possible date. In 2026, it will be on 13 August. Had the school year already started by 7 August this year in any other country? The school year will end on 30 May in 2026 and 5 June in 2027. In which countries does the school year start already in August? When does it usually start in US and Canada? --[[User:40bus|40bus]] ([[User talk:40bus|talk]]) 21:18, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:Ah you're back again. Have you tried google? It's a search engine available at google.com. You might find it useful. [[User:Nanonic|Nanonic]] ([[User talk:Nanonic|talk]]) 21:31, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
::Aren't slightly harder questions like this one what the ReferenceDesk is for? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:58, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Feel free to humour them, they'll be back again shortly with more. [[User:Nanonic|Nanonic]] ([[User talk:Nanonic|talk]]) 10:33, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:there is no simple answer for the US. Public education is a state resposibility, but it is handled at the county (or even city) level. In my county (population approx. 160,000) there are 3 school systems. One has already started and 2 start tomorrow. And surrounding counties are different. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 21:37, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:Answer from the Netherlands: The country is divided into 3 regions, north, middle and south, with school holidays staggered. This is to spread the load on the tourist industry. Most (by far) tourists in the Netherlands (except within a 20 km radius around Amsterdam) are domestic. It also helps a bit to spread the load on long distance transport. I think this division into 3 regions is common in Europe, although the regions may be more random and discontinuous.
:One region ends the school year on the first Friday after 2 July, the other regions one and two weeks later. The next school year begins on the Monday 45 days later, so the earliest possible start date is 17 August, the last 6 September. Each year, either the early and middle or the middle and late regions swap, stretching or shrinking the school year by one week. This can be compensated for using the other holidays. There're some voices to shorten the summer holiday to 5 or 4 weeks, but there're economic reasons against it.
:These are only guidelines from the national government; schools may deviate. Deviations are uncommon, except for some regulars. For example, in most of the south and some of the middle, the spring holiday is shifted to coincide with Carnival. [[User:PiusImpavidus|PiusImpavidus]] ([[User talk:PiusImpavidus|talk]]) 10:30, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::A few jurisdictions here in Canada have adopted a continuous school year [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/education-balanced-calendar-year-round-1.7267038], without a long summer break (it's reduced to one month instead of the usual two to two-and-a-half months), but with more and longer breaks during the school year to compensate. This results in the start of the new school year falling in early August. There's an article on the practice in the US, at [[Year-round school in the United States]]. [[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]] ([[User talk:Xuxl|talk]]) 14:47, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
== World War I dogfight before 5 October 1914 ==
currently at DYK we have [[Aerial combat of 5 October 1914]], where the proposed hook would be "... that the first "dogfight" of World War I took place on 5 October 1914 in France?" does anyone know of a WWI dogfight prior to this? thank you. [[User:Therapyisgood|Therapyisgood]] ([[User talk:Therapyisgood|talk]]) 21:32, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:Our article [[Miodrag Tomić]] describes an earlier hostile aerial encounter as follows: "On 15 August, Tomić encountered an enemy plane while conducting a reconnaissance flight over Austria-Hungary. The Austro-Hungarian aviator initially waved at Tomić, who waved back. The enemy pilot then took a revolver and began shooting at Tomić's plane. Tomić produced a pistol of his own and fired back." But this does not fit the notion of a dogfight. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 00:21, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::"A dogfight, or dog fight, is an aerial battle between fighter aircraft that is conducted at close range." (from our own article) How does that definition not apply to the circumstance you described? Seems like a perfect fit to me. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 11:44, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:::In a dogfight, the airplanes are fitted with weapons designed for that purpose (taking out an enemy plane in flight); it's not the pilots pulling out a personal piece. [[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]] ([[User talk:Xuxl|talk]]) 14:50, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::::Says who? --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 15:11, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Wiktionary defines the metaphorical sense of ''[[wikt:dogfight|dogfight]]'' as: "A twisting turning battle between two or more military aircraft, especially between fighters." Like angry dogs, they keep coming at each other. The 15 August 1914 encounter between a Serbian and an Austro-Hungarian military plane, as related, involved no twisting or turning; it was a relatively straight-forward business. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 02:29, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
== Guy between Mannerheim and Ryti ==
[[File:Hitler Mannerheim Ryti.jpg|thumb|right|Adolf Hitler on a surprise visit to Finland with Commander-in-chief Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim and President of Finland Risto Ryti.]]
The Führer of Germany [[Adolf Hitler]] paid a surprise visit to Finland to visit the Commander-in-chief of the Finnish Defence Forces [[Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim]] on Mannerheim's 75th birthday. Shown here is a photograph of them with [[Wilhelm Keitel]] on the extreme left, Hitler and Mannerheim in the centre, and Ryti on the right. Does anyone know who is the guy immediately to the right of Mannerheim, with Mannerheim's nose pointing to his cap? [[User:JIP|<span style="color: #CC0000;">J</span><span style="color: #00CC00;">I</span><span style="color: #0000CC;">P</span>]] | [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 23:11, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:It looks like the Finnish Pilot Qualification Badge (lentomerkki) on his left breast (swastika surrounded by stylised wings, surmounted by a crown). [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 00:13, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::This insignia is the second image in the gallery in the section {{section link|Western use of the swastika in the early 20th century#Finland}}. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 00:26, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:Could it be [[:fi:Yrjö Könni|Yrjö Könni]]? At the time the photo was taken Könni's rank would have been [[major]]. He looks older than on the undated photo [https://www.konninsuku.fi/aineistoaitta/kuvamuistoja/historiakuvia/ here], where he has fewer decorations and no brass on his collar but is also wearing the ''lentomerkki'' on his left breast. ​‑‑[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 00:45, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 25 =
== [[Redaction (editorial synthesis)]] ==
I really want to fill out the above article, whose subject is a huge part of the reason texts from antiquity like the Bible, Zhuangzi, Gilgamesh, Upanishads are so fascinating and otherworldly. On the other hand, it dawns on me that literary redaction is just about the closest mode of operation the ancient world had to Wikipedia editing {{smiley}}.
Problem is, I'm certain because I hear scholars talk about how much they've learned about how ancient scribes and scribal institutions worked with and redacted texts, but I can't find any of it, at least in the general sense I expect from typing "redaction" into Google Scholar. Does anyone know where such a treatment of literary redactors and redaction is, or anything remotely like that? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff"> 🌈 </span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 12:16, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
== Need for synchronisation gear ==
Train of thought from the dogfighting discussion above...As far as I can remember reading, all First World War aircraft with rigid-mounted guns (i.e. you aim them by pointing the plane) had the guns in front of the pilot, thus necessitating the invention of a [[synchronisation gear]] to avoid shooting off the propellors. Did nobody attempt to mount guns on the wings (i.e. beyond the reach of the propellors), and if so, why not? Were the wood-and-fabric wings typical of the period simply too flimsy to permit this, or was there some other reason, or did this get attempted and I'm just unaware of it? [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 19:45, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:Early machine guns were crap and jammed a lot, some pilots were issued with a mallet to give the breech a whack to try to fix this. As well as that, the good guns ony had so much ammo until they needed to be reloaded - lewis guns only had 90 or so rounds in each drum. And yes the weight of the guns and the ammo was a bit much for the frames at the time. Some considered slinging a gun under the fuselage instead, keeping the centre of gravity/balance and therefore potentially avoiding the need for a sync gear (if low slung enough) but that wouldn't have negated the jamming/reloading issues. [[User:Nanonic|Nanonic]] ([[User talk:Nanonic|talk]]) 20:00, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::Wing-mounted guns also need to be [[Gun harmonisation|harmonised]], and that was a fertile area for disagreement. That article also mentions problems with flexing of the wings, which would of course have been greater on the earlier, wood and string, airframes. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 23:14, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:::Wow, I've never heard of harmonisation. I just assumed that wing-mounted guns would always fire straight ahead, so you had a better chance of hitting something, even if your fuselage were slightly misaimed. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 01:35, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
::If weight is the worst problem of the guns, it's best to mount them on the wings. After all, the aeroplane is carried by its wings. That's why most airliners have their engines there. If the main problem is recoil, mount the guns on the engine, as that has the most mass. If flexing of the aeroplane is the worst problem, the engine is again the best place to put the guns. The spinning propeller ([[rotary engine|in some cases]] even the spinning engine block) acts as a gyroscope. A low centre of mass is nice for ground handling, but doesn't really matter in air. Putting the heavy guns on the wings increases the aeroplane's moment of inertia, reducing manoeuvrability.
::There are different solutions to the problem, like twin engines or pusher propellers. Or shoot through a hollow propeller shaft. You need a geared engine, as you can't shoot through a hollow crank shaft. I suppose people tried most of these solutions. [[User:PiusImpavidus|PiusImpavidus]] ([[User talk:PiusImpavidus|talk]]) 10:50, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
:@[[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] Re: "to mount guns ''on'' the wings" -> [[Royal Aircraft Factory S.E.5]] -> [[Foster mounting]] <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/91.221.58.22|91.221.58.22]] ([[User talk:91.221.58.22#top|talk]]) 06:02, 26 August 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Wing guns slow the aircraft roll rate because mass is farther from the centerline. To improve roll rate, Soviet pilots often removed the two wing guns from their P-39 Airacobras, retaining the two fuselage guns and the central cannon. This also lightened the aircraft for better range. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 15:08, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
==Commission of investigation into Blanton Winship/Ponce Massacre==
Some time after the massacre there was an investigation headed by Arthur Garfield Hays, as I understand it a founder, chair and counsel of the ACLU. After a little research it seems that this was set up by Puerto Rico civil society (at least one source said it was under the aegis of the US govt) and Hays and the ACLU were invited to join/assist/head the Commission of Inquiry into the Causes of the Ponce Massacre. I'm primarily looking for the text of the report, but would also be interested in other documents - Winship's press releases and Pérez-Marchand's (the DA) reports to Winship. All the best: ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]''<small> 23:03, 25 August 2025 (UTC).</small><br />
:Our article [[Ponce massacre]] wrongly said the report was by the [[United States Commission on Civil Rights]] and led by Hays, but as he died three years before the Commission came in to being that was obviously impossible. Anyway, [https://lawcat.berkeley.edu/record/183738?ln=en Here] is the "Report of the Commission of Inquiry on Civil Rights in Puerto Rico, May 22, 1937", you will need Berkeley Library access, I suggest asking at [[WP:RX]], and [https://digitalcollections.wesleyan.edu/_flysystem/fedora/2023-03/22428-Original%20File.pdf here] is a BA thesis which will be of interest and contain pointers for further research. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 23:44, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
= August 26 =
== [[United States House Select Committee on Assassinations|House Committee on Assassinations]] hearings films ==
Such as [https://www.wpafilmlibrary.com/clips?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keyword=alexander+eist&x=0&y=0 these], from 1978. They appear to be timestamped "WPA", but I don't know who they are. I guess the question is, is the filming by a private media corp or a government employee? Thanks! [[User:Fortuna imperatrix mundi|<span style="color:black">'''—'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Fortuna imperatrix mundi|<span style="color:black">''Fortuna''</span>]], [[User talk:Fortuna imperatrix mundi|<span style="color:#8B0000">imperatrix</span>]] 15:02, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
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