Talk:Introduction to evolution: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 14:18, 9 December 2006

Latest revision as of 18:34, 10 April 2024

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I obviously disagree strenuously with the tag that has been placed on this article to move this to evolution. This guy is some template happy character it seems. I complained on his talk page but I have obtained no reply.--[[User:Filll|Filll]] 02:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

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{{British English}}

{{Article history

|action1=GAN

|action1date=2007-06-08

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::I see little to salvage in the article as it now stands.[[User:GetAgrippa|GetAgrippa]] 02:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

|action2date=2007-08-27, 06:04:57

|action2link=Talk:Introduction to evolution#GA fail

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Please edit away to your heart's content. Let's make this accurate but still accessible, if possible.--[[User:Filll|Filll]] 03:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

|action3date=13:51, 18 September 2007

==Needed==

|action3link=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Introduction to evolution

* We need pictures here. Something simple please and not too frightening.

|action3result=keep

* I would like to change the blue information box at the top of the article to a vertical blue information box down the right hand side of the article if possible--[[User:Filll|Filll]] 04:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

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|action4=PR

I wanted to put {{ otheruses4|evolution in biology }} in this article but it did not work properly for some reason.--[[User:Filll|Filll]] 05:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

|action4date=2007-09-25, 09:22:23

|action4link=Wikipedia:Peer review/Introduction to evolution/archive1

|action4oldid=159645914

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==Start with the theory?==

|action5date=2007-12-13

I have just redone the opening, to start with a brief statement of the theory (largely cut and pasted from an earlier version). I think this is a good idea, even though the essential points are restated in the vertical box at the right. The bullet list can develop into a slightly longer and fuller version, while perhaps the box can be shortened further - two different ways of conveying the essential facts, for people with different ways of absorbing information. Also - I moved the stuff about wings down to join the hands because (a) it is another example of adaptive radiation and (b) I don't think it's a good idea to jump straight into a specific example like that, which perhaps gives too much of an impression that this is all that evolution is about. Maybe now a good idea to delete either the hands or the wings and leave just one example. [[User:Snalwibma|Snalwibma]] 09:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

|action5link=Talk:Introduction to evolution#GA pass

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I am disappointed to see that [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] has simply reverted my changes without discussion. OK - some of it is wrong. But what about the principle? I still feel the present opening is quite inadequate, jumping straight into a specific example (which is in effect made redundant lower down the page) without setting out the basic idea. [[User:Snalwibma|Snalwibma]] 10:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

|action6date=17:56, 29 January 2008

|action6link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Introduction to evolution

|action6result=promoted

|action6oldid=187689427

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:::: The article requires complete revision, knee-jerk reversal at this stage are not productive. We almost need to put a disclaimer across the top "UNDER CONSTRUCTION". Try you edits again. This can work if we think in terms of informative, accurate, yet minimize the enormous amount of supporting details that are problematic in the Main article. Perhaps first you could outline the major topics for the article that are relevant to understanding evolution. Then discussion over the outline could follow. Then the actually text can be composed, with readability in mind. Don't throw in the towel .... yet! --[[User:Random Replicator|Random Replicator]] 12:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

|action7date=00:42, 30 January 2008

|action7link=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Introduction to evolution (2nd nomination)

|action7result=keep

|action7oldid=187819184

|action8=FAR

I agree. Even the English on this version is stilted, because in Simple Wikipedia we are encouraged to write somewhat stilted English to try to aim for an article which only uses about 850 words of [[Basic English]]. However, for Wikipedia itself I think we can at least make sure the English is readable, but still keep it simple with less technical terms.--[[User:Filll|Filll]] 12:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

|action8date=23:53, 12 October 2009

|action8link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Introduction to evolution/archive1

|action8result=removed

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I looked at what Snalwibma had done. I think it was a distinct improvement over this. I think rather than just revert mindlessly, we should edit the material we have here. It needs to grow organically. If some of what was added was not exactly correct, then it needs to be edited, not reverted!!--[[User:Filll|Filll]] 13:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

|action9date=01:43, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

|action9link=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Introduction to evolution (3rd nomination)

|action9result=Speedy keep

|action9oldid=329978726

|action10=FAC

I'll take it off my watchlist and let you guys proceed as you see fit. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 15:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

|action10date=22:26, 2 April 2011

|action10link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Introduction to evolution/archive1

|action10result=not promoted

|action10oldid=422032577

|topic= Natsci

Let's revert this to Snalwimba's version and let it evolve in a hopefully constructive

|currentstatus=FFA

direction.--[[User:Filll|Filll]] 15:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

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{{WikiProject Evolutionary biology|importance=mid}}

{{WikiProject Biology|importance=mid}}

{{WikiProject Palaeontology|importance=mid}}

{{WikiProject Animals|importance=mid}}

{{WikiProject Tree of Life|importance=mid}}

{{WikiProject History of Science|importance=mid}}

{{WikiProject Geology|importance=Top}}

{{WikiProject Molecular Biology|MCB=yes|MCB-importance=high|genetics=yes|genetics-importance=high}}

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{{Controversial-issues}}

{{tmbox|text=Some common points of argument are addressed at Wikipedia's '''[[Talk:Evolution/FAQ|Evolution FAQ]]''', which represents the [[WP:CON|consensus]] of editors here.}}

{{Archive box|search=yes|

* [[Talk:Introduction to evolution/Archive 1|Archive 1]] <small>(December 2006)</small>

* [[Talk:Introduction to evolution/Archive 2|Archive 2]] <small>(Jan–Feb 2007)</small>

* [[Talk:Introduction to evolution/Archive 3|Archive 3]] <small>(March–Aug 2007)</small>

* [[Talk:Introduction to evolution/Archive 4|Archive 4]] <small>(Aug–Nov 2007)</small>

* [[Talk:Introduction to evolution/Archive 5|Archive 5]] <small>(Dec 2007–Jan 2008)</small>

* [[Talk:Introduction to evolution/Archive 6|Archive 6]] <small>(Jan–Sept 2008)</small>

* [[Talk:Introduction to evolution/Archive 7|Archive 7]] <small>(Dec 2008–Oct 2009)</small>

* [[Talk:Introduction to evolution/Archive 8|Archive 8]] <small>(Dec 2009–Feb 2011)</small>

* [[Talk:Introduction to evolution/Archive 9|Archive 9]] <small>(Feb 2011–Apr 2013)</small>

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{{Clear}}

== [[WP:BRD]] & related ==

Hey!</br>I did improve structure and readability recently and got a revert-war on my tail;) You can see it through (bottom) I did very light edits to content, nothing serious, rather due to understanding and grasping the contents by going through one topic at a time from top to bottom with repeats to better learn the stuff. This is an intro, right? Header is now better in concordance with main body. I differentiated between theory of evolution and proof of evolution in experiment (sligthly - an accademic necessity too often neglected!). Dear valued wikipedia-co-autors, you may also decide to help me get (part or all) of my good changes through. Thanks-a-lot, yours --[[Special:Contributions/78.51.211.140|78.51.211.140]] ([[User talk:78.51.211.140|talk]]) 03:19, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Link to IP's version: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Introduction_to_evolution&oldid=646442760] --[[User:NeilN|<b style="color:navy">Neil<span style="color:red">N</span></b>]] ^{[[User talk:NeilN|<i style="color:blue">talk to me</i>]]} 03:24, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

::::I like to critique more than write.... but would this be a suitable start as an intro? --[[User:Random Replicator|Random Replicator]] 15:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Its hard to encapsulate Evolution in a short, readable, intro!!!! So be kind.

:Thank you for the help - that was quick! Highly appreciate it! --[[Special:Contributions/78.51.211.140|78.51.211.140]] ([[User talk:78.51.211.140|talk]]) 03:31, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

FWIW - another way (perhaps better) of reviewing the actual (rather substantial imo) [[Special:Contributions/78.51.211.140|IP Edits]] => '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Introduction_to_evolution&diff=prev&oldid=646443126 CLICK HERE]''' - hope this helps in some way - in any case - Enjoy! :) [[User:Drbogdan|Drbogdan]] ([[User talk:Drbogdan|talk]]) 03:36, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

== Simple overview changes ==

In a general way, evolution is described as the changes that have transformed life from its earliest origins into the diverse forms of life represented today. More specifically, the Scientific Theory of Evolution states that all living things share, at some point in their evolutionary history, a common ancestor. Evolution depicts life as a tree, with many branches arising from a single trunk. The tips of the branches represent present day life forms. Each fork in the branch represents ancestors common to all lines arising after the split.

I've reworded the "[[Introduction to evolution#Simple overview|Simple overview]]" section in the following ways (red items are originals; green/more-indented items are new; comments in brackets):

{{green|The main ideas of evolution may be summarized as follows:}}

Insert Image of Tree Here!!!!

: [Added an introductory sentence so the section doesn't start with (and consist solely of) a list.]

* {{red|Life forms reproduce and therefore have a tendency to become more numerous.}}

** {{green|Life forms reproduce and therefore have a tendency to become more numerous.}}

** {{green|Factors such as predation and competition work against the survival of individuals.}}

**: [No change to first item; second item links idea of growing population to that of differential survival.]

* {{red|The offspring differs from the parent in minor random ways.}}

** {{green|Each offspring differs from their parent(s) in minor, random ways.}}

**: [An offspring may have one (asexual) or two (sexual) parents; also "the" doesn't make sense for first mention of offspring.]

* {{red|If the differences are helpful, the offspring is more likely to survive and reproduce.}}

** {{green|If these differences are beneficial, the offspring is more likely to survive and reproduce.}}

**: [Minor wording change.]

* {{red|This means that more offspring in the next generation will have the helpful difference.}}

** {{green|This makes it likely that more offspring in the next generation will have beneficial differences and fewer will have detrimental differences.}}

**: [Described change is not guaranteed, only probable.]

* {{red|These differences accumulate resulting in changes within the population.}}

** {{green|These differences accumulate over generations, resulting in changes within the population.}}

**: [Clarify that the changes happen over generations.]

* {{red|Over time, populations branch off to become new species as they become separated.}}

** {{green|Over time, populations can split or branch off into new species.}}

**: [Speciation does not necessarily depend on physical separation.]

* {{red|This process is responsible for the many diverse life forms in the world.}}

** {{green|These processes, collectively known as evolution, are responsible for the many diverse life forms seen in the world.}}

**: [Wrap it up in a bow.]

I hope others will accept my reasoning on the more significant changes. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] ([[User talk:Dcljr|talk]]) 12:17, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

== Emphasis ==

ISTM that a lot of people have a mistaken impression about evolution, and this article misses the opportunity to clear it up. Many think that evolution is only something that took place in the distant past, and is only concerned with fossils. (1) As this article is written, it begins with a discussion of the past. It could begin with something like: "Evolution is something which we see happening throughout the world of life ... And we see the results of it having happened in the past in today's comparative anatomy and biogeography ... And we see how life has changed in major ways over long spans of time ..." (2) The first extended description of evolution can leave the impression that evolution is natural selection. There are other mechanisms involved, notably genetic drift and sexual selection, and it is not out of the question that there might be other mechanisms. I don't intend to make any changes on my own. I'm just bringing up some thoughts. [[User:TomS TDotO|TomS TDotO]] ([[User talk:TomS TDotO|talk]]) 16:37, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

The idea of common ancestry has its roots in the Darwinian Revolution. Charles Darwin, famous for his theory of natural selection, saw unity in life, with all living things related or descending from a common ancestor. Darwin describes these events as “descent with modification”. Darwin based his ideas of common ancestry on the principals of natural selection.

: Not only is genetic drift mentioned (twice) in the lead section, there's [[Introduction to evolution#Genetic drift|an entire section by that name]] already in the article. It does seem, however, that the article doesn't mention sexual selection at all (not by that name, certainly — there is one instance of the phrase "mate selection"). The [[sexual selection]] article places it firmly as a subset of natural selection, but this article should probably at least mention it (by name). As for the first point, having not read the entire article before replying, I can only say that the direct (present-day) observation of speciation is mentioned both in the lead section and the [[Introduction to evolution#Species|Species]] section. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] ([[User talk:Dcljr|talk]]) 22:35, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Natural Selection::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

All common knowledge, so citations not required. Not familar with the rules and lack the skills to actually edit the article itself ... so this as far as I know to go with it.

I have just modified one external link on [[Introduction to evolution]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/810531775|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:

Readability score of 46 or 10th grade level. --[[User:Random Replicator|Random Replicator]] 15:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141227004122/http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/AB/BC/Gregor_Mendel.php to http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/AB/BC/Gregor_Mendel.php

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

:I like it. Fantastic.--[[User:Filll|Filll]] 15:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

==Pictures==

A quick look gave these. I hope there are better ones but this is all i could find for now. [[User:David D.|David D.]] [[User talk:David D.|(Talk)]] 05:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 20:59, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

<div class="thumb tright" style="background-color: #f9f9f9; border: 1px solid #CCCCCC; margin:0.5em;">

{| border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="font-size: 85%; border: 1px solid #CCCCCC; margin: 0.3em;"

|[[Image:Swiming_Spheniscus_humboldti.JPG|190px]][[Image:Aquila_spinogaster_%28African_Hawk_Eagle%29.jpg|255px]][[Image:FlappingOstriches.jpg|153px]]

|-

|[[Image:Handskelett MK1888.png|400px]][[Image:Arm_skeleton_comparative_NF_0102.5-2.png|198px]]

|}

</div>

:Those look good to me. To brighten it up a bit so it is not to dreary looking.--[[User:Filll|Filll]] 12:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

== Science template ==

Since we already have the more specific Evolutionary Biology template, I agree that the Science template is too much. Thanks, —[[User:PaleoNeonate|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#44a;text-shadow:2px 2px 3px DimGray;">Paleo</span>]][[User talk:PaleoNeonate|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#272;text-shadow:2px 2px 3px DimGray;">Neonate</span>]] – 05:21, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I was hoping we could insert a evolutionary tree after discusion on the branches of life... there is one in the wiki photovault in which the copyright is expired. Link->

:: That applies to most all the other sciences too. We really don't need more navboxes hogging the (very scarce) real estate at the tops of articles. Navbars are far less intrusive, but frankly I can't see any need for one with the apparent purpose of what's just gone. [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]] ([[User talk:Chiswick Chap|talk]]) 08:23, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

[http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Pedigree_of_man_%28Haeckel_1874%29.jpg]

== Paring down the lead section ==

I have no clue how to insert or resize but if someone wants to try to insert it if appropriate. --[[User:Random Replicator|Random Replicator]] 20:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

: I gave it a try. I am not sure it is perfect but it is a start. Someone who is more expert or more patient than me can adjust it, resize it, etc.--[[User:Filll|Filll]] 20:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::You could try and make it smaller but with the blue box on the right it will be hard to fit it in without everything getting cramped. Another possible ___location is in the montage, i have placed one in there for you to compare with the one at the top. Obviously this montage needs a good legend to link it with the text. [[User:David D.|David D.]] [[User talk:David D.|(Talk)]] 21:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the lead of this article is way too long, and much of it is redundant or off-topic for what should be an introduction to "introduction to evolution". I propose that we make the following cuts:

::::: Personally, I like the picture at the top; as someone said "we need to break up the text to reduce the intimidation factor." The lead in sections seems to be coming together nicely. Its a start. I would like to see the next section 'simplify' the tie in between Darwin and modern genetics. Maybe Population genetics could be the next subheading, with a summary of Hardy-Weinberg principles? I think the key here seems to be minimize examples and details and not feel a need to defend or define every sentence/word. Also compact, concise sentences.The section on convergent and co-evolution was in the original transfered entry. It is just hanging there at the moment. Hopefully, it will eventually have a tie in to the section. I also recommend staying away from Creationist / Evolution debate. Refer all challengers to the main page ... they can fight it out there. That said ... should we continue or is this too redundant or perhaps distracting from the main article? I hate to invest the time; only to find the community at large thinks it absurd. --[[User:Random Replicator|Random Replicator]] 04:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

#Cut most of the second paragraph. I suggest "The age of the Earth is about 4.54 billion years.[1][2][3] The earliest undisputed evidence of life on Earth dates at least from 3.5 billion years ago.[4][5][6]", and then straight into "Evolution does not attempt to explain the origin of life ...". The extensive material about first life forms is not about evolution.

:::::: To correlate with the main article, Modern Synthesis might be a better heading than population genetics. I read the main page on M/S and it is Titanic; an excellent section to condense here. Obviously this is a support document so it should perhaps correlate to the main page. --[[User:Random Replicator|Random Replicator]] 05:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

#Cut what is now the fourth paragraph, "The forces of evolution are most evident..."

#Cut what is now the fifth paragraph, "The majority of genetic..."

I am only a mathematical physicist but I think you are doing a fantastic job here. This looks great to me ! Of course, do not take my word for it since in this field, I am sort of out my main area !--[[User:Filll|Filll]] 05:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

This material is either covered in the previous paragraph, or would fit better integrated with a main section. [[User:Danstronger|Danstronger]] ([[User talk:Danstronger|talk]]) 01:57, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

== Precedent ==

I don't know if there is any policy on having less technical introductions on subects. Has this been done before? [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 06:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:Yes it has been done on [[special relativity]], [[general relativity]] and [[quantum mechanics]] so far. So if physics can do it, so can biology I think. --[[User:Filll|Filll]] 06:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

==Numbered list==

What has happened to the numbers in the list of five principles of natural selection? The picture of the tree gets in the way and deletes the numbering of the list. My knowledge of wiki markup and html has been stretched to the limit (doesn't take much of a stretch) trying to restore it. Someone must know how to do it! [[User:Snalwibma|Snalwibma]] 08:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

: It looks fine to me now. How does it look now? What browser are you using? --[[User:Filll|Filll]] 14:09, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::: I see no numbers, just the slashes, using MS Explorer with 21" wide screen. --[[User:Random Replicator|Random Replicator]] 14:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::: Filll ... do you see numbers? --[[User:Random Replicator|Random Replicator]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

==Edits to list==

I fixed a spelling error. I also did not want to use the word evolve to explain evolution in a sort of circular argument.--[[User:Filll|Filll]] 14:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)