Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2006 December 20: Difference between revisions
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<noinclude>{{Deletion review log header}}</noinclude>
===[[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2006 December 20|20 December 2006]]===
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! style="background-color: #f2dfce;" | [[Knights of Glory and Beer]] – {{{2|Deletion endorsed}}} – 08:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived debate of the [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]] of the article above. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>''
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:{{la|Knights of Glory and Beer}} <kbd>(</kbd>[[Special:Undelete/Knights of Glory and Beer|deleted history]]{{#ifexist:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Knights of Glory and Beer|<kbd>|</kbd>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Knights of Glory and Beer|AfD]]|}}<kbd>)</kbd>
Article was speedied under A7 (no assertions of notability). On the [[Talk:Knights of Glory and Beer|talk page]], the article's creators are vehemently asserting notability. Well, they are vehemently claiming that many people are members and care deeply about their organization. There is no evidence of references in reliable sources as of yet. However, it appears that whoever acted on the speedy acted too rashly, as this probably needs more discussion; the speedy delete is obviously being contested. I currently hold '''No Opinion''' pending evidence of notability per [[WP:N]] and [[WP:WEB]]. [[User:Jayron32|Jayron]][[User:Jayron32/Esperanza|<span style="color:#00FF00;">32</span>]] 20:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
* '''Yeah, right'''. A Guild Wars clan with 55 unique Googles, and the contents of the article was [[WP:BALLS|complete bollocks]] form beginning to end. Not a hope. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 21:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
* '''Endorse Deletion''' Claiming something is notable is not the same thing as offering a valid assertion of notability. If I start an article with "This is really, really, really, really notable," that does not mean it can't be speedied. A valid assertion of notability requires a significant reason for the assertion. The only clan articles I have seen that actually contain such a valid assertion are some recent articles on Halo groups who have gotten a million-dollar contract to publicly compete and help promote the game. As that contract has been widely reported in the press, it's a valid assertion of notability. [[User:Fan-1967|Fan-1967]] 21:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse speedy''': I'm sure that the members of the clan like their clan. Other than that, the folks above say it well. (Besides, beer drinkers should be cheeful.) [[User:Geogre|Geogre]] 12:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse Deletion''' as the sysop who deleted it. Clearly an A7. [[User:Naconkantari|<span style="color:red;">Nacon</span><span style="color:gray;">'''kantari'''</span>]] 20:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse deletion'''. There is a difference between asserting notability and complaining about notability. I bet if you got the statistics, you would see that a disproportionate number of articles that start off with "This is a notable X because" have been speedied. -[[User:Amarkov|Amarkov]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Amarkov|blah]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/User:Amarkov|edits]]</sub></small> 20:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse Deletion''', notability and assertion of notability are not synonymous. There has to be written multiple, non-trivial, reliable sources to back up the assertion and it isn't found here.--[[User:DakotaKahn|'''''Dakota''''']] 20:31, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The above is an archived debate of the [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]] of the article above. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>''
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! style="background-color: #f2dfce;" | [[Dominic Janes]] – Speedily closed, better article moved into article space, AFD optional – 21:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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:{{la|Dominic Janes}}<
Article was speedy-deleted because of vandalism and protected until a suitable article or stub could be put in place. I have created a stub at [[User:PHDrillSergeant/Dominic Janes]] which I think will fill this space quite nicely. ~ [[User:PHDrillSergeant|<
*I guess this can be speedy closed as suggested above. [[User talk:Tizio|Tizio]] 19:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
**'''Overturn''': I don't know about "speedy closed", whatever that means. Rushing seems to be the major mistake in the case of this article. I'd say that the article should be recreated as there is clearly notability. I'm a little surprised this article was deleted four times, protected, etc. and yet there was apparently no attempt at formal "[[WP:AFD|deletion survey]]. It's alomost as if a minority of admins tried to suppress this. [[User:Ace Class Shadow|Ace Class Shadow]]; [[User talk:Ace Class Shadow|My talk]]. 21:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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! style="background-color: #f2dfce;" | [[Church of Google]] – {{{2|Deletion endorsed}}} – 08:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived debate of the [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]] of the article above. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>''
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:{{la|Church of Google}} <kbd>(</kbd>[[Special:Undelete/Church_of_Google|deleted history]]{{#ifexist:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Church_of_Google|<kbd>|</kbd>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Church_of_Google|AfD]]|}}<kbd>)</kbd>
Article described reoccuring phenomenon, documented both in 2004 and 2006, and exhibited by separate sources (links to relevant articles will be provided on request). Furthermore, article passes notability "search engine test", both on Google and Yahoo search engines. [[User:Alice Shade|Alice Shade]] 16:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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* '''Comment''' I don`t explicitly insist on restoring the article as a separate item, by the way. According to rules, undernotable topic could be merged into a more general one as subsection, which would be quite enough for this subject for the foreseeable future. [[User:Alice Shade|Alice Shade]] 19:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse''': The thing is that the disagreement between various "originators" is exactly what's wrong with the concept as the target of an encyclopedia article: it's so fluid, so much a protologism, so unsettled in every respect as to be unable to make a legitimate claim to notability. A phrase like "family disunity" will pass the Google test, but that doesn't mean that there is a chapter in the Psychology textbook referring to it. We have competitors claiming to have achieved notability, but these are fragmented shots at the same name, and we can't count them cumulatively. [[User:Geogre|Geogre]] 21:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:*Arguably, this is the proof of notability, if you mean competitioners for same title. When something is moved along solely by single inventor and his/her support group, that`s one case. Now, when there are several indepentant groups, who reached the same conclusion - it hints, that idea should be more widespread, then it seems. [[User:Alice Shade|Alice Shade]] 12:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
:*Except that we're not talking about an idea, but a thing. In this case, it is not a thing, but several people thinking up the same formulation of concepts. Again, a random phrase like "happy camper" will get huge Google hits, but it won't mean that there is a model of recreational vehicle that instills joy, ''or even that such is the concept.'' Therefore, someone coming along and claiming to have created an RV that is the "happy camper" couldn't piggyback that to claim notability. [[User:Geogre|Geogre]] 03:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
:**Not exactly. Here, we have two separated cases of people creating highly-similar organisations, completely independantly, but with highly similar premises. Two (or two thousand) mentions of words "church" and "google" together, would not, of course, attribute to notability. But close recreation of a secluded following in highly similar form by completely-independant group? That is somewhat more interesting, because it shows a pattern. Moreso, a careful search will crop similar lesser results, which again, constitute not to a random combination of words, but entirely defined concept. On other note, I must note, that "happy camper" is quite incorrect example. "Happy" is adjective, and as such, obviously should not be included along with concept, in Wikipedia. There are no different articles on "stewed beef" and "roasted beef", correct? Now, casting off "happy", we are left with [[Camper]] - which, as one can ascertain, there IS an article about. [[User:Alice Shade|Alice Shade]] 03:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse deletion''' religioncruft, valid AfD, keep this nonsense off of Wikipedia. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 04:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
:* Now, that borders with personal attack. I can argue with same reason, that article on Christianity should be banned from Wiki, because I personally think it`s a huge joke. Saying, that subject is not notable enough is one thing, discarding it as something silly is quite another. [[User:Alice Shade|Alice Shade]] 12:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
:** Report me on [[WP:PAIN]] then. I stand by my statement. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 06:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
:***Don`t worry. If your opinion will turn into a vandalism or abuse, I surely will. [[User:Alice Shade|Alice Shade]] 07:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse deletion''' as per [[WP:NFT]]. Only 2 [[Factiva]] hits - both whimsical brief passing mentions [[User:Bwithh|Bwithh]] 06:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
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! style="background-color: #f2dfce;" | [[Bishop McDevitt High School]] – Edit history restored behind new article; AfD optional – 08:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived debate of the [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]] of the article above. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>''
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:{{la|Bishop McDevitt High School}} <kbd>(</kbd>[[Special:Undelete/Bishop McDevitt High School|deleted history]]{{#ifexist:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bishop McDevitt High School|<kbd>|</kbd>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bishop McDevitt High School|AfD]]|}}<kbd>)</kbd>
Reason: Lack of process—As far as I can tell, there was zero discussion anywhere about this page, which is months, if not years old. Within hours, someone had started a new stub, so the only effect of the deletion appears to have been to lose lots of content. Unless I misunderstand the process, it did not qualify for speedy delete, so please re-instate it. [[User:Centrx]] is welcome to tag it or start a conversation about notability, sourcing, etc., on the Talk page, or even list it on AfD—isn't that the proper process? Thanks. —[[User:johndburger|johndburger]] 13:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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**do you mean endorse and overturn? -[[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 21:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
***No. It was bad then, but it was recreated, and it's good now. There's a reason you can't G4 speedies. -[[User:Amarkov|Amarkov]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Amarkov|blah]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/User:Amarkov|edits]]</sub></small> 21:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
****Please explain what is different about the page now that would prevent it from being deleted again. If the school is non-notable, it's non-notable, no? I agree that the page is improved—is deleting it the typical way top accomplish this? Thanks. —[[User:johndburger|johndburger]] 01:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Very strong overturn''' - Once again, if there's any question, it should be afd, not speedy. A7 speedies are explicitly said at [[WP:CSD]] to ''only'' be for non-controversial pages dealing with "people, groups, companies and web content" (I'm not sure a school fits into any of these anyway). -[[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 18:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Close discussion here''' History has been restored under the recreated article; any editor that wants to merge the old into the new can do it without admin intervention. [[User:GRBerry|GRBerry]] 04:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''undelete''' and keep history restored please this topic is not for speedy delete [[User:Yuckfoo|Yuckfoo]] 06:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
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! style="background-color: #f2dfce;" | [[Starfleet alternate ranks and insignia]] – {{{2|Deletion endorsed}}} – 08:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived debate of the [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]] of the article above. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>''
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:{{la|Starfleet alternate ranks and insignia}}<kbd>(</kbd>[[Special:Undelet/Starfleet alternate ranks and insignia|deleted history]]) —<kbd>(</kbd>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Starfleet alternate ranks and insignia|AfD 1]]<tt>|</tt>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Starfleet alternate ranks and insignia (2nd nomination)|AfD 2]]<kbd>)</kbd>
:It was again a non-concensus (keep if you ignore meritless OR rationale for deletion). No valid reason to delete was given. OR argument is without merit. It was also nominated for deletion one week before the other nomination. The person deleting the article was involved in AfD #1 as well as [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Husnock]], Husnock being a co-author of this article along side with me and others. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 12:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
* Rationale explained in some detail on the AfD closure. The fact that some people don't ''like'' the deletion doesn't undermine its validity, IMO. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 13:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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*:Starfleet is NOT military (picard states this).<br>[[WP:OR]] means I can't make things up. Alternate in the context of the article's coverage is rank insignia published by sources not considered canon such as [[Star Trek Encyclopedia]], [[Star Trek: The Animated Series]] and etc. The books are reliable, the TV show (animated series) is reliable enough for us to have articles about them. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 16:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse deletion''', nothing can trump WP:V and WP:OR, and this article failed both. [[User:Zoe]]|[[User talk:Zoe|(talk)]] 17:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*:How is [[Star Trek Encyclopedia]] ({{ISBN
*'''Reluctant overturn'''. The doubt that this was OR or not should have defaulted to a no-consensus. As discussed at this first DRV, if you have two legitimate arguments, we shouldn't be defaulting to delete. --[[User:Badlydrawnjeff|badlydrawnjeff]] <small>[[User_talk:Badlydrawnjeff|talk]]</small> 17:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:* Jeff, what Is aid was, ''some'' was OR, ''some'' was not OR, ''some'' required a creative interpretation of NOR either way, and the ''premise'' was such as to encourage OR (by explicitly referencing non-canon, which is almost always a shortcut to the bitbucket in fictional genres) and also a level of detail in excess of what might be generally accepted (Memory Alpha might like articles on ranks that never appeared in canon, but Wikipedia is not Memory Alpha). Someone might well look up a shoulder flash to see what rank a given character has, that is a plausible reader query,. but what reader is going to come here looking for a rank which does not appear in canonical sources? How would they know even to look? <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 10:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
::*With a million plus articles, I sure we have a lot that people theoretically won't come here for. The issue is multiplefold (is that a word?): if there was some OR issues, but not across the board, that can be solved by editing. If you're worried about the level of detail, that can be solved by editing (although I'm not really a sizeist when it comes to article length). Was there really a consensus on the second AfD that this information wasn't encyclopedic? If there was, I'm not seeing it. That's why I can't endorse this, it gives the appearance that you're putting your own limitations into the closing. I get where you're coming from, but I don't think you handled it correctly. --[[User:Badlydrawnjeff|badlydrawnjeff]] <small>[[User_talk:Badlydrawnjeff|talk]]</small> 11:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse deletion''' - valid closure based on number crunching, unverifiability and lack of reliable sources. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletionism|Deletion!]]</sup> 17:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*:How is [[Star Trek Encyclopedia]] ({{ISBN
*'''It's dead, Jim.''' Valid close based on <wince> numbers and, more importantly, reasoning. After what seems like a five-year mission through AfD, we get back to where we should have been in the first place. Once the remaining OR has been taken out, we don't have enough for a stand-alone article and anything that can be found in [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] can be added to the main article on Star Trek ranks, with the note that it is non-canon, per SC. [[User:JChap2007|JChap2007]] 18:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*:How is [[Star Trek Encyclopedia]] ({{ISBN
::* This is not AfD MkII (we already had that). In closing, I reasoned as follows: some of this is definitely OR, some is not, some is arguably OR, the title and underlying premise encourage OR, and ''even if it were not'' it represents a level of detail in excess of what would normally be considered appropriate. Star Trek: notable. Episodes of Star Trek: fairly notable. Concepts within the universe you see in episodes of Star Trek: a bit notable. Concepts which are discussed by fans as being ''implied'' by what goes on in episodes of Star Trek? Not notable, pretty unambiguously so. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 19:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:::*Woo, weasel words! That doesn't answer my question. How is [[Star Trek Encyclopedia]] ({{ISBN
::::*Nobody's saying it is. Any ranks with an entry there can go in the main article on Star Trek ranks. Problem solved, eh? [[User:JChap2007|JChap2007]] 21:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::* Precisely. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 21:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::*Ah I see so the deletion is without a merit then. The main article is '''STUFFED'''. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 22:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::*So...I'm trying to [[WP:AGF|understand the problem]] here. There has been a solution proposed that preserved the verifiable content from reliable sources that was inexorable intertwined with [[WP:OR|OR]] in the deleted article ... but the deleted article's advocate dismissed it out-of-hand because the merge target is a ''somewhat large''? [[User:Serpent's Choice|Serpent's Choice]] 01:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::::*The point is, tharget article is too large. Thats why this article was broken off of it. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 13:43, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::*Frankly, that article is nowhere near the threshhold where mandatory subpagination should be considered. Rename the "Conjectural Ranks" section as "Ranks in non-canon sources" and you can include any appropriately referenced information from ''Starlog'', FASA content, novels, etc. (with the caveat that things like www.st-spike.org probably don't count as sufficiently reliable sources, unless there's more to them than I'm aware of...). [[User:Serpent's Choice|Serpent's Choice]] 09:37, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::*There is a reason for that. The actual version of the article was way over 200ks. Article was broken apart to a number of pages auch as [[Captain (Star Trek)]] and during the process basically all text was moved ''off'' the article to new articles. Forking of alternate ranks article was a part of that. If any material can be merged, they can also be a separate page as well. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 09:51, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::* I note that you are trying once more to get [[:Image:Anti-Star Trek Cabal logo.png]] deleted. Thank you so much for notifying the uploader and myself. Oh, you didn't. Oh, and you used a bogus deletion rationale. Amazing. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 00:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Urgh''': I have avoided any previous discussion on this topic so that I might avoid sounding like I was chiding anyone, but such mass scope deletion decisions handcuff us somewhat. ''Parts'' are probably valid, and there should be alternatives to "all in" and "all out." Everyone seems to be motivated by good concerns, and I don't detect anyone being malicious, so I hope no one thinks there are vendettas or anything going on. This may be most properly considered at an RFC than the binary of delete/keep. [[User:Geogre|Geogre]] 21:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*:Well... [[User:JzG]]'s userpage does feature the Anti-Star Trek Cabal logo. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 22:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*::Uh... no it doesn't [[User:Bwithh|Bwithh]] 22:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::What is the "anti-Star Trek cabal image?" [[User:JChap2007|JChap2007]] 22:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::[[:Image:Anti-Star Trek Cabal logo.png]] is right there. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 22:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::* Do we need a disclaimer for the humour-impaired? <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 23:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::*Why not call it the [[Cardassian Empire]] or somesuch? Maybe the anti-Borg: we will '''not''' assimilate your Star Trek article. [[User:JChap2007|JChap2007]] 00:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::* Just as well cool cat referenced it here, otherwise I'd not have noticed that xhe is trying again to get the image deleted. Humour impaired indeed. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 00:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::::*Trolling is prohibited behavior, do not indulge in it or you will regret it. Personal attacks are not welcome either (who are you calling humor impaired?). --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 10:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse''' the closure was within admin discretion. Information sourced to the Star Trek Encyclopedia and the like can (and should) be added to the main article per Serpent's Choice (and my own "vote" in the AfD for that matter). Even setting aside OR (which I think remains a valid criticism of the article as it stood), the excessive detail (i.e. "cruft") argument remains. Not everything in Star Trek is notable (and certainly not everything in secondary non-canon sources is notable). Wikipedia is a general purpose encyclopedia, not an exhaustive Star Trek one. [[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] 05:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*: And I tried so hard not to use the word fancruft... ;-) <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 10:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*::The admin closing it was not an objective party. He had a predetermined view before closing the debate (as per previous afd that happened this month). The entire article is sourced with sources like the star trek encyclopedia and was still deleted for being original research and for not being verifiable. Numerous votes point out that this is not inline with policy. 'Cruft' articles are welcome on wikipedia, one mans cruft is anthers knowledge. Why not delete all articles on astronomy for being astronomy cruft. Wikipedia is indeed a general purpose encyclopedia, hence what you call 'cruft' is welcome here. Topics covered do not exclude detailed information on star trek. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 10:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::Sorry for using the 'c' word, but its a convient shorthand for cases like this. The key to refuting Cool Cat's point though is really the widely cited guideline [[Wikipedia:Notability]]. I know Star Trek is notable (and I'm a big fan), but the subject of '''this article''', a very minor aspect of Star Trek, is not. Hundreds of perfectly verifyable non OR things are deleted for being non-notable everyday; there is no reason that Star Trek articles are exempt. (Note that I still have concerns that the article was an OR ''synthesis'' of technically verifyable facts, but I don't see the need to debate that for a thrid time.) [[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] 15:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::I believe admiral ranks of the original series are as notable as TNG. No canon insignia is avalible, but secondary sources did cover it. Alleged warrant officer rank did appear on the show but what it really was was never revealed. I also believe lieutenant commander insignia from ST:Enterprise is also quote notable. These are some of the more obvious examples on how this article is notable. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 05:42, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - Looking into it, I think that the claim that this is [[WP:OR]] is invalid - if it is taken from a book published by the right people and not pieced together, then it's hardly original research. I don't care about "canon", and neither, IMO, should the encyclopedia - it's all about varying types of fiction (let Memory Alpha and similar who are trying to put together a coherent fictional world care about canon). As to whether [[WP:V]]/[[WP:RS]] factor into it, we run into a rather grey area when it comes to what that means for topics like this - for fiction, what counts as reliable? The topic is perhaps too ephemeral for us to come up with good guidelines for that (and we should reject canonicity out-of-hand, I think). I don't think this belongs on Wikipedia primarily because it's not notable (in the sense of having a greater importance to society), but think the WP:V/WP:RS arguments are questionable and the WP:OR argument is broken. --[[User:Improv|Improv]] 06:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
:: Read the closing rationale, please. This found that ''some'' was OR, ''some'' was not (and is therefore verifiable, so can go in [[Starfleet ranks and insignia]]), and the ''premise'' was such as to encourage OR - also that the ''premise'' implies a level of detail in excess of what might generally be expected (aka "cruft"). I really did go through the arguments in the AfD reading each and every one. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 10:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Overturn''' per badlydrawnjeff. [[User:VegaDark|VegaDark]] 09:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse''', reasonable close by JZG. We could redirect to [[Starfleet ranks and insignia]] if that'd help. [[User_talk:Radiant!|<b><span style="color:#DD0000;">><span style="color:#FF6600;">R<span style="color:#FF9900;">a<span style="color:#FFCC00;">d<span style="color:#FFEE00;">i</span>a</span>n</span>t</span><</span></b>]] 12:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
*:What would be the point of a redirect? --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 13:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
***[[Special:Whatlinkshere/Starfleet_alternate_ranks_and_insignia|this]]. [[User_talk:Radiant!|<b><span style="color:#DD0000;">><span style="color:#FF6600;">R<span style="color:#FF9900;">a<span style="color:#FFCC00;">d<span style="color:#FFEE00;">i</span>a</span>n</span>t</span><</span></b>]] 14:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse Deletion''' per Eluchil404. [[User:Naconkantari|<span style="color:red;">Nacon</span><span style="color:gray;">'''kantari'''</span>]] 20:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse deletion'''. I am a bit tired of repeating the fact that a few referenced facts does not magiclally prevent an article from being comprised of conjecture and original research. [[User:Proto|<span style="text-decoration:none">Proto</span>]]<i>::</i><small>[[User_talk:Proto|<span style="text-decoration:none">►</span>]]</small> 16:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
*:Well, we could prevent wikipedia from being edited... Same logic applies to any and every article. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 16:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse''' deletion, while repeating the idea that the material be moved to someone's userspace (I volunteer my own) so that the nuggets of non-OR can be salvaged an integrated into [[Starfleet ranks and insignia]] (where we're right now having it out again as to what counts as a reliable source). --[[User:EEMeltonIV|EEMeltonIV]]
*'''Endorse deletion''' - I actually think the page should be merged, but if this gets formally overtuned, it's going back to AfD, and I'm really tired of seeing this going back and forth. However, I '''strongly support userfying''' this page so that we can see which sections can be merged into the main Starfleet ranks page. I also agree 100% with Geogre's "Urgh" comment above - the delete/keep mentality is a real problem. "Article contains OR" is a reason to delete ''that OR''. It is not a reason to delete ''the whole article''. On a different issue, I've seen a disturbing trend of judging an article's worth just by its title. ''Title and content are two totally separate questions.'' If an article's got a strongly POV title, but contains NPOV information, then just rename the bloody thing. If a subject simply isn't notable enough to exist on its own, or could promote OR, fine, delete the article - but only after merging any good contents into the article of a "parent topic". [[User:Quack 688|Quack 688]] 05:27, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
**..in whole agreement. [[User:Serpent's Choice|Serpent's Choice]] 13:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
***I am not. If a merge is to be discussed article must be undeleted and the correct {{tl|merge}} is to be observed. A merge wont happen unless history is preserved. As per GFDL I '''require''' entier history of my work to be preserved. I believe other editors of the article will agree with this. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 20:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
***I'd much rather the article stay deleted (and not have the ease of copy-and-paste to salvage useful nuggets) than to see it restored to the main wikispace. --[[User:EEMeltonIV|EEMeltonIV]] 20:31, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
****WP:OR argument is completely broken, WP:V argument also is broken (as far as I care). Therefore the delete was without merit and was done inappropriately. I frankly find your approach disturbing. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 21:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
* '''MessedRocker's Beliefs''' - if it is ''this'' dubious, and is such an in-universe topic that there are ''few'' reliable sources for it, this is not worth our time. Let's just move on, okay? There are some articles that need writing -- the kind that can be written that won't cause pointless flamewars about exactly ''how'' original-researchy it is. [[User:Messedrocker|<span style="color:red;">★<small>MESSED</small></span>]][[User talk:Messedrocker|<span style="color:red;"><small>ROCKER</small>★</span>]] 21:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
* '''MessedRocker's follow-up comment''' - From what I've read about this deletion review (over a nice hot bath), there have been arguments that at least a portion of the article constitutes original research. Cool Cat has told me, however, that the information in the article comes from officially sanctioned publications such as ''Star Trek Encyclopedia''. While these ranks may not be canon, they still have some level of officialness. As such, that would make the article a potential notability problem, not a verifiability problem. There may be an original research problem; if the article takes its sources and derives new information, ''that'' would be original research. Administrators, please take a look at the deleted history of the article and see if there are any original research-related problems. I would greatly appreciate follow-up comments to this one. [[User:Messedrocker|<span style="color:red;">★<small>MESSED</small></span>]][[User talk:Messedrocker|<span style="color:red;"><small>ROCKER</small>★</span>]] 22:27, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
:*That was the exact problem with deleting the whole article in the first place.
::- Statement: The rank Dogsbody appears in the tech manual, "Stuff".
::- Verifiability: Anyone with access to the manual can confirm that this statement of fact is correct, and that the rank appears in the book. Therefore, it passes [[WP:V]].
::- Original Research: The rank is from a studio-endorsed source. It is not looted from a fan site, and it is not made up by a Wikipedia editor. Therefore, it passes [[WP:OR]].
:However, several people disagree with this line of reasoning. If the rank doesn't appear on screen, then you can say so, and say it's a non-canon rank. But I'm still waiting to hear how the above statement, in and of itself, is unverifiable, or constitutes original research. [[User:Quack 688|Quack 688]] 01:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
::Actually, according to the official star trek website whats considered 'canon' is [http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/help/faqs/faq/676.html fluid]. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cat]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|out]]</small> 20:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse deletion'''. No way to write an article on this that we can claim to be authoritative. --[[User:Samuel Blanning|Sam Blanning]]<sup>[[User talk:Samuel Blanning|(talk)]]</sup> 00:44, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
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! style="background-color: #f2dfce;" | [[Quranic reasons for terrorism]] – {{{2|Deletion endorsed}}} – 08:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived debate of the [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]] of the article above. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>''
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:{{la|Quranic reasons for terrorism}}<kbd>(</kbd>[[Special:Undelet/Quranic reasons for terrorism|deleted history]]<tt>|</tt>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Quranic reasons for terrorism|AfD]]<kbd>)</kbd>
I had no objection to Islamic scholars presenting their Quranic reasons ''against'' terrorism to make the article balanced as opposed to its outright deletion. This is just a food for thought, and I won't insist more or get angry for the deletion of the article.--[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 03:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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*'''Endorse deletion''' - closer's reasoning is sound. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 14:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Overturn''' - the closer, unfortunately, did not present any reasons for deletion - Most of the other arguments seem to be an obfuscated version of [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]], it's a bad article name (which is not a reason for deletion - it can be renamed), or that the article content exists elsewhere on Wikipedia (but that's not valid, because it's hard to piece together: I'll bet all information in the [[George W. Bush]] or [[monotheism]] article is somewhere else too). Among the many arguments for delete, there was only one who presented a valid reason: [[WP:OR]] (though I can't verify even that without seeing the article, and this too may have been an obfuscation). Finally, there ''is'' a reason to keep: this article is extremely notable, as worldwide there is a very large Islamic movement that advocates violence, and most of it quotes the Quran. -[[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 18:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:::'''Comment''' We already have substantial content on Islam, the Koran and political violence in in e.g. [[Jihad]], [[Criticism of the Qur'an]], [[Militant Islam]], and [[Islamic military jurisprudence]]. The major problem with the deleted article (which was the crux of the afd nominator's argument) is that the almost the entire article([http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:fyTpznK3Rj0J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranic_reasons_for_terrorism+quranic+terrorism+wikipedia&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a googlecached version here]) was based on the letters of one guy, [[Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar]], who attempted to run over people with a car (but managed to seriously hurt noone and almost immediately turned himself in to the police) at his university in North Carolina. This one, obscure guy - who apparently wasn't even a member of a militant Islamist group - is not a reliable or authoritative source for content for an article generalizing about how extremist Muslims interpret the Koran. [[User:Bwithh|Bwithh]] 22:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:::: I have reverted an insertion of the bulk of the deleted article's content into [[Islamist terrorism]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamist_terrorism&diff=95606514&oldid=95536780] [[User:Bwithh|Bwithh]] 22:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Restore''' I think it is flapdoodle that Muslim nations make studying the Quran MANDATORY for all in public & private schools, tell the students that the contents thereof is definitely the word of God, and then when people obey, call the followers terrorist. I believe the article should be restore and developed to help non-Muslims see the entire picture.--[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 02:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
::Uh.... you're responding to your own request for review? Anyway, DRV is not an extension of afd. [[User:Bwithh|Bwithh]] 04:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
:::The points in the article were never rebuffed. Instead, deletion was advocated for illegitimate reasons.--[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 05:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
::::What you think is "flapdoodle" is not a legitimate reason to have an article in Wikipedia. I suggest you read [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:OR]]. [[User:Geoffspear|Geoffrey Spear]] 13:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I have pored over them long ago. I keep seeing users resort to [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT#Just_a_policy_or_guideline]] quite frequently when it comes to Islamic articles.--[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 13:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Huge problem''' the Google cached version looks entirely different from what the article looked like when it was deleted on 20 December. I had added quite a bit of stuff to it.--[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 06:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
{{cquote|And [[wikt:slay|slay]] them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.|author=[[Qur'an]]|source={{Quran-usc|2|191}}}}
This is [[pure Islam]].--[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 12:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
::This topic is already well-covered with more balance in [[Islamic military jurisprudence]]. Also, one translation version of one verse without context is not really particularly persuasive as an illustrative point. There are clearly multiple translations from the Arabic as well as multiple verses which qualify each other besides commenting on different aspects - as can be seen from the link above you provided. And fundamentalist readings of texts are always still intepretations/exegesis, so at least some commentary on discursive context is needed too. [[User:Bwithh|Bwithh]] 13:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
:::[[Islamic military jurisprudence]] is another one of those false articles that is guarded to ensure discordance with Islam every minute. For example, see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamic_military_jurisprudence&diff=94489160&oldid=94485712.--[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 13:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::If you have problems with the content of that article, start a [[WP:RFC]] rather than create a fork [[User:Bwithh|Bwithh]] 23:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::There isn't really much to discuss when sources are removed. As if Al-Zawahiri is a lone wolf; see [[List_of_terrorist_groups#Islamist]]. I am also aware of [[Internet trolls]] waiting to fill the RFC page with a haystack of words.--[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 06:07, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse deletion''', being based entirely on a primary source and collating support for a particular point of view, inherently violates the non-negotiable [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:NPOV]]. A particular favourite comment of mine in the AfD is ''"The word terror itself appears in Quran numerous times"'' - the Quran is written in Arabic and the word "terror" appears zero times. Translators may have used it, but only because they arbitrarily decided not to use "fear" or "horror" instead, and trying to make a connection between a 7th century Arabic book and the modern English term "terrorism" is ludicrous. --[[User:Samuel Blanning|Sam Blanning]]<sup>[[User talk:Samuel Blanning|(talk)]]</sup> 13:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse deletion''', per Samuel Blanning but also user {{Userlinks|DAde}} was community banned partially for trying to force this exact same content down the throats of fellow editors on the [[Islamist terrorism]] article '''for months''' (which the now indef. blocked sockpuppet of his user {{userlinks|Abc3}} started back up doing). This article was just POV pushing original research. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 15:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
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! style="background-color: #f2dfce;" | [[Master Exploder]] – Redirect set and endorsed – 08:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
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* '''Endorse redirection''', utility to the reader appears to be greater that way. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 14:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''endorse keep or redirection''' It Was a notable song on the POD film, though i acept it hasnt been released as a single--[[User:Slogankid|Slogankid]] 17:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse redirection''', per trialsanderrors. --'''[[User:Coredesat|Core]][[User talk:Coredesat|<
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! style="background-color: #f2dfce;" | [[Fixity of species]] – {{{2|Deletion endorsed}}} – 07:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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*'''how can this be discussed without seeing the article? please restore long enough for a discussion''' This is in my area of interest, but I must have missed it in AfD because of the short time there. I really cannot understand the rationale for making this invisible?
:* This is about the process, not the content. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 09:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
:''' <
*'''Comment''' - Please review the [[fixity of species|current article]] and type your opinion on whether you agree with the deletion or not. Try to keep your previous opinions of past versions of this article out of this review. The page is for the scientific assumption known as "fixity of the species" (15,100 ghits<sup>[http://www.google.com/search?q=%22fixity%20of%20species%22]</sup> - 648 google books<sup>[http://books.google.com/books?q=%22fixity%20of%20species%22]</sup>) and not a religious dogma which is called [[creationism]]. Thank you. [[User:Pbarnes|Pbarnes]] 04:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:*'''Endorse deletion''' OK: taking the article at present, it is devoid of meaningful content. Darwin's changing religious position is very fully discussed in the article on him; the opinions of other biologists is also discussed there, and elsewhere --both parts in much more detail than here. The article is not biased, merely worthless. [[User:DGG|DGG]] 04:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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! style="background-color: #f2dfce;" | [[Steve Platt]] – {{{2|Deletion endorsed}}} – 07:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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*Unsourced, no notability even implied, the article has been around since September 20, it could have been fixed in the more than two months of its existence yet was not. '''Endorse deletion'''. [[User:Zoe]]|[[User talk:Zoe|(talk)]] 19:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
:''' <
*'''Endorse deletion'''. Articles must at least assert notability ''when they are created''. Recreate it with such an assertion if you feel like it. -[[User:Amarkov|Amarkov]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Amarkov|blah]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/User:Amarkov|edits]]</sub></small> 02:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Endorse deletion'''. Unverified, failed to show notability despite being here for three months, plenty of time to verify and establish notability.--[[User:DakotaKahn|'''''Dakota''''']] 06:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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I demand this case be reopened [[User:Daviesaj|Daviesaj]] 17:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
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