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:::::Before you start trying to assume what my way of thinking is, I still contend that your changes were not an improvement, and others share that view. What does this mean?: {{tq|In which case, how does ceding control of a key landing page to an opaque group of unknown off-wiki 'experts' improve the encyclopedia?}} What page are you referring to? Part of the problems experienced at NPP are from users being accorded rights with little care. What we are attempting to here is is twofold: inform new users in a new way (for Wikipedia) without exposing them to walls of policy text, and lightening the workload at NPP. Either you are a partner in that goal or you are not; this is part of the wider scheme to improve a few things that you've chosen not to participate in - coming here and ripping everything apart without a discussion after the project is finished and published is not very friendly either. You couldn't even be bothered to sign [[Wikipedia:New pages patrol/Coordination/2022 WMF letter|this]] or follow the discussions or even participate in the video conference about it with the WMF]]. Either participate or you are on the wrong project entirely and abusing [[WP:CIVIL|this policy]] - since you are so keen to evoke policies.[[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 01:28, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
::::::{{ping|Kudpung}} You're veering wildly off-topic here. I didn't sign the letter because I didn't agree with it, not because I "couldn't be bothered", and I didn't know anything about any off-wiki discussions or video conferences with WMF bigwigs. But what on earth does that have to do with editing this page? People don't have to get your approval or join your club in order to edit help pages. And if you think straightforward edits to improve the readability of text is {{tq|ripping everything apart}} you really do need to get a grip. – [[User:Joe Roe|Joe]] <small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 05:37, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
{{ping|MB}} You have reverted me [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:Unreviewed_new_page&diff=1121014624&oldid=1120857464 again], with no explanation of what you object to. Nor is {{tq|not an improvement}} a constructive rationale that anyone can work with, {{ping|Kudpung}}. I've asked you both several times what it is you object to and when you've told me I've self-reverted those changes pending discussion (so no, I am not restoring my "preferred version"). You cannot simply [[WP:OWNBEHAVIOR|obstruct changes because you haven't approved them]]. There must be ''discussion'' for there to be consensus. So one more time, can you please tell me what it is you don't like about this edit, or do I have to take this to a noticeboard? – [[User:Joe Roe|Joe]] <small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 05:31, 10 November 2022 (UTC)▼
▲:{{ping|MB}} You have reverted me [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:Unreviewed_new_page&diff=1121014624&oldid=1120857464 again], with no explanation of what you object to. Nor is {{tq|not an improvement}} a constructive rationale that anyone can work with, {{ping|Kudpung}}. I've asked you both several times what it is you object to and when you've told me I've self-reverted those changes pending discussion (so no, I am not restoring my "preferred version"). You cannot simply [[WP:OWNBEHAVIOR|obstruct changes because you haven't approved them]]. There must be ''discussion'' for there to be consensus. So one more time, can you please tell me what it is you don't like about this edit, or do I have to take this to a noticeboard? – [[User:Joe Roe|Joe]] <small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 05:31, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
::It's already been explained. You did not get consensus to make your changes in the first place. It is up to you to get consensus for your changes, not me to get consensus to remove them. [[User:MB|<b style="color:#034503">MB</b>]] 05:35, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
:::What has been explained? Where? The only things you said you objected to was the mention of redirects in the lead sentence, which I removed, and the added sentence about G13, which I removed. Oh, and that it is "substantially longer", even though it's shorter. In other words, ''tell me what is lacking consensus'', and == Some cleanup ==
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